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79 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.08.15)”
Tier 4 of Partnow’s rankings is out featuring Randle in Tier 4B – Seth called him “the very definition of a floor-raising but ceiling-limiting profile”. Interestingly from a Knicks perspective no Mitch in this range which means Seth is either very high on him (top 40) or very low (not top 125). I suspect it’s probably the latter given the notable bigs that were in Tier 4 (Randle, Sabonis, Towns, Lopez, Porzingis, Mobley etc.) but that would be a big miss imo.
For today’s Knicks video history lesson, here’s a video of Pistol Pete Maravich’s 68 point performance of the ’76-77 Knicks. There is one point in the video where Pete goes left and scores on what should have been an and-1, but was called for an offensive foul. Looked like a terrible call to me, and as such it should have been a 70+ point game, with no 3-point shots, which make it one of the greatest scoring performances ever prior to the 3-point era.
I was in college at that time and hardly watched any Knicks games or pro basketball at all. The Knicks had a pretty good roster but fell short of the playoffs. Clyde, Pearl and Bradley were on their last legs, but Bob McAdoo put up a 4.0 BMP season and had some solid role players.
The Jazz had a starting lineup of Pistol Pete and 4 guys I never heard of. In fact, I never heard of anyone else on that Jazz roster. Too bad he didn’t play for better teams in his prime.
Yeah, I saw Mitch’s absence from Tier 4, and I assume that means he won’t be on the list at all. Which feels wrong to me. But as someone who frequently writes ranked lists for a living — including a book purporting to rank the 100 best shows ever — I also know that ultimately these things are meant as argument starters, rather than definitive word from the mountaintop.
I suspect Brunson will be in a better tier, but no other Knick will be.
Yeah, Brunson is the only one left — unless Partnow is really high on Mitch’s defense. I can’t imagine Josh Hart ranking above any of the players Seth has already listed. Question is whether he considers Brunson to be a 3 or a 2, since he obviously won’t be in the superduperstar category.
Z-man, I remember that game but did not actually see it. My father took me to his place of work that night and the security guard was looking at the game on a very small portable TV. The game must have been well underway because the security guard and I were discussing that Clyde had lost a step on the defensive end, and needed to go. Probably the very first L I took on my Knicks analysis. Not sure I have improved that much close to 50 years later.
It also feels wrong to me that KP is ranked so high in Partnow’s ranking. Would you really prefer him to Randle or Towns? The ranking says you should.
I think it could be easily argued that Mitch is better than at least one, and possibly all of: Nic Claxton, Jarrett Allen in tier 4, and Zubac, Kessler, Looney, and Poeltl in Tier 5. But I doubt that Parnow thinks that Mitch is better than all of them, and as such, it is probable that he left him out of the top-125.
I always considered Parnow’s work very thought provoking but often wonky and flawed. Most of these decisions are no-brainers that most of us could have come up with. The rest is purely subjective.
Partnow saying Wemby is coming into the league on another level than Luka is pretty weird, because Luka was a much better player in Europe.
Also I refuse to believe that ‘its the playoffs’ lets teams defend Randle in a way that reduces his TS% 10 points but is apparently impossible to do in the regular season, especially when the defense is essentially ‘send guys at him when he isos’.
And also, I don’t know how much we can take these latest playoffs as evidence of anything, Randle-wise, because he was hobbled. If he’s healthy next spring and then is easily shut down, then he’s obviously a regular season innings eater and not much more .But I’m not ready to give up on him yet.
I think Brunson has to be tier 2, he had one of the best seasons i’ve seen from a Knicks player, and i’m a fan since 1991.
Yeah, Randle vs. Sabonis has always been an intriguing comparison for me. I think Sabonis is the more consistent offensive player but less versatile and a greater playoff liability because he’s so bad as a defensive 5 and would probably be worse as a 4. Randle is at least capable of being a reasonably effective and more importantly switchable defensive player.
“I think Brunson has to be tier 2, he had one of the best seasons i’ve seen from a Knicks player, and i’m a fan since 1991.”
I would guess 3 because of his defensive issues. There’s only 40 spots left, correct? Assuming that you have to be in the top 20 to be in tier 1 or 2, I don’t think he makes the cut, although his playoff performance might have put him on the 2-3 bubble..
These are arguably Tier 1:
Jokic
Embiid
Giannis
Doncic
Booker
Durant
Butler
Tatum
LeBron
Steph
Dame
Shai
This is arguably Tier 2:
Ja
Hali
Kawhi
PG
AD
Spida
Siakam
Brown
JJJ
Fox
Murray
Bam
Ant Man
Zion
I don’t see Brunson being ranked above any of these guys. He’s probably going to be in Tier 3 with guys like Kyrie, Trae, Harden, DeRozan, Draymond, and a couple of the guys on my Tier 2 list that drop down (PG? Zion? Siakam? Murray? Hali?)
When it’s going well.
Randle’s playoff woes really has to do with how ineffective bullyball is as the comp gets tougher…. this happens to prospects in college when they get to the pro’s… short but stout and strong and wide guys you can’t push people around as much as you do in college… and they wind up failing….
guys like Randle and Sabonis are able to do it because they just don’t do that… but they are strong and tough enough where it is a foundational part of their game… how often do you see randle driving and getting a bump from a defender to create space near the rim or in floater range for a fade or hook? quite often…. and that’s generally because he can’t elevate as well as some of the more elite pf’s do.. same with sabonis… and then in the playoffs those opportunities get harder and their strengths get mitigated….
in the playoffs… the guys are going to be tougher and longer and faster… and help is coming harder and quicker…. Randle faced off against Mobley who you can bump him for some space.. but he can just put his arms up and you’re not getting that fade or easy hook as you do in the regular season… Randle got denied multiple times trying that on Mobley and he gave up… that maybe foot related… but healthy foot or no.. he’s not going to grow another few inches to overcome that… against Bam it’s a similar story except he can bang with Randle while not quite having the same length….
that coupled with the fact that Randle responded really terribly to shadow coverage… just as he did against the hawks series a couple years ago… i don’t believe his issues can be entirely blamed on his injuries…. this is an inherent issue with power forwards…
every notable pf who wasn’t duncan or KG.. and i’d argue they were really centers… had this issue…. when you can’t get those same easy buckets downlow you have to expand your game… that usually means a midrange shot.. atlanta and everyone else forced him in those areas and that’s generally at his weakest as we’ve all seen…. the whole reason he came back well this year was that he developed more of a floater/hook game after he clears space with a body….
that’s going to be tough to repeat… but the way out like other pf’s have… is develop a more consistent outside shot…. that’s his issue…. that’s sabonis’s issue… and that may or may not come…. we’ll just have to see….
Other Tier 3 guys:
LaMelo, Mikal, Jrue, Beal, Gobert, Middleton…
Seems like I’m up to 38 of 39 remaining spots…could one of them actually be Mitch? Naah, probably Clarkson?
Markkätın?
Spelled with a “u.”
I remember watching that game. It was pretty heartbreaking watching a helpless Clyde being abused by Pistol Pete and hearing about it from my friends the next day at school.
Shit, I thought I had Markkanen typed in, yeah, he’s probably it. Clarkson would be a bad choice, my bad.
So power forwards can’t compete in the playoffs? This seems like a dubious idea to me.
Karl Malone did pretty well in the playoffs. As did Shawn Kemp. As did Charles Barkley.
I just don’t buy that Randle is able to bully his way against regular season PF’s but not playoff PF’s. He’s abused Bam during regular season games. Was Bam just not trying in those games?
His playoff issues are either mental or due to his injury. The jump in height, strength, etc…from regular season players to playoff players isn’t THAT extreme. It’s not like the jump from college to pro.
I mean, Tatum is a PF and he’s had some monster playoff games and some bad ones too.
Randle being worse in the playoffs isn’t that weird, I mean the playoffs are tougher, the Knicks offense wasn’t exactly getting him easy looks, but it’s just him going from a being a very good player to a terrible player because the game is different doesn’t seem to pass the smell test for me. I’d be more inclined to believe he just goes crazy in the playoffs than the game is so very different.
There’s a cheesy article about Latrell Sprewell atop the news feed today.
Seth Partnow’s NBA tiers are cool but what about your Knicks tiers?
I propose a very personal and subjective exercise to get us through a few days of the doldrums: give us your Knicks tiers.
Rule #1: you can rank anyone, not just players. Perhaps you’re big into sports medicine and want to put legendary athletic trainer Mike Saunders in your second tier. You do you.
Rule #2: you have to have experienced the person, i.e. you can’t put Willis Reed in your first tier if your 30 years old and you never saw him play. But you can put Clyde Frazier, because Rule #1 allows you to include announcers.
Here’s mine…
Tier 1: Patrick Ewing, Walt Frazier and Mike Breen
Tier 2: Bernard King, Charles Oakley, Latrell Sprewell, Ray Castoldi
Tier 3: Allan Houston, Jalen Brunson
Tier 4: Xavier McDaniel, Anthony Mason, Larry Johnson, Amar’e
Tier 5 (the sentimental tier): Charlie Ward, Pablo Prigioni, Hubert Davis, Jeremy Lin
Amar’e barely makes it in, but he ultimately does because those first few months of him at the Garden when he was scoring 30 every night were so damn electric.
That’s a great exercise but the options are quite barren for those of us born in 1995…
kemp had a much shorter career but he didn’t really consistently avg over 20ppg in a series until age 25… made the final at age 26 and then shortly ate himself out of the league… kemp also had a lot more length and athleticism then your typical pf so we’ll put him aside for now….
malone and barkley are probably more apt comparisons even tho randle is no where near as good as them.. but they did struggle in the playoffs…
reg season fg%
malone .516
barkley .541
playoff fg%
malone .466
barkley .513
that’s a big difference even tho it’s just fg% we’re looking at… the whole archetype of disappointing stars who underperform the playoffs.. a lot of them are pf’s…. chris webber… blake griffin… zach randolph… carlos boozer… the guys who generally did well had a more diversified skillset… or they started getting more success when they diversified themselves….
was he even guarding him in those games? and weren’t you on the whole reg season version of miami doesn’t matter train during the whole playoffs? he scored 43 against miami once but he scored 21 13 and 3(he got hurt in this one i think) in the others…. he didn’t steamroll them in every game far from it…. and bam wasn’t even guarding him nearly as much as he was in the playoffs….
Lol, tier 2 is looking a lot like Hubert’s tier 5, throw Tyson Chandler, David Lee & Gallinari in there
Obviously Steve Novak, Timofey Mozgov, and Chris Copeland are in tier 3
By tier 4 it’s players who have become memes I enjoy such as JR Smith untying shoelaces, Eddy Curry eating, the Plague, Coach East is BIG, Chief Triangle, Bargs GIFs, Markkatamaran
Tier 5 are just names I like: Earl Barron, Nate Knight, Jericho Sims, Nerlens Noel & Norvel Pelle, etc
Re Randle, while I appreciate Djphan’s deep dive, it seems like two years ago he was basically our only option so the other team just loaded up on him and he fell apart, while this past year he played hurt. Injured Julius was still better than the alternative (I’m sorry, Obi!!!), but right now Occam’s Razor says two different experiences, even if the results look similar.
On Hubie’s list, love Tier 1. I’d move Latrell and Xavier down, move Jeremy up. Not sure I’d have Charlie there.
The great disagreement. Mark Jackson. LOVED watching him play. Hate him to death as ‘a man-sized’ announcer and overall mega-asshole. If I could somehow forget who he actually is, I might put him as high as Tier 2, certainly Tier 3 as a player…
David Lee is definitely in there, Tier 3 or 4. And so is IQ. Far and away my favorite player on this team (now that Obi’s gone, and apologies to Deuce).
Here’s my top 60 (minimum 100 games as a NYK, present team excepted):
Tier 1 (4):
The Captain
Patrick Ewing
Clyde
Bernard King
Tier 2 (6):
Earl Monroe
Dave DeBusschere
Carmelo Anthony
Jalen Brunson
Julius Randle
Allan Houston
Tier 3 (15):
Bill Bradley
Dick Barnett
Michael Ray Richardson
Stephon Marbury
Bill Cartwright
Larry Johnson
Latrell Sprewell
Amare Stoudemire
Anthony Mason
Charles Oakley
Tyson Chandler
Bob McAdoo
Jerry Lucas
John Starks
Mark Jackson
Tier 4 (15):
Derek Harper
Marcus Camby
Walt Bellamy
Ray Williams
Jamal Crawford
Charlie Ward
Kurt Thomas
David Lee
Cazzie Russell
Mitchell Robinson
JR Smith
Kristaps Porzingis
Immanuel Quickley
Danilo Gallinari
Trent Tucker
Tier 5 (20):
Derrick Rose
Nate Robinson
Hubert Davis
Gerald Wilkins
Johnny Newman
Marvin Webster
Louis Orr
Raymond Felton
Charles Smith
Chris Childs
Pablo Prigioni
Phil Jackson
Ernie Grunfeld
Darrell Walker
Iman Shumpert
Spencer Haywood
Dave Stallworth
Mike Riordan
Wilson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Some notables who didn’t make the 100 games cutoff:
Xavier McDaniel
Zach Randolph
Doc Rivers (99!)
Jeremy Lin
I more or less agree with the above .
I’d just add there’s almost never “one” reason.
I also think in general at the margin, playoff teams are a little better defensively and they are more focused because they have the same opponent each game. They make more adjustments, take away strengths better, and force weaknesses.
Each one of these things can compound into significant drop.
(and that doesn’t even count random ups and downs)
Embiid is ~ two months removed from winning The MVP Trophy, he’s 29yrs old going into his prime years while locked in on a max deal. It just doesn’t make any sense for Josh Harris to let him go. Guys like Embiid just don’t become available.
Darryl Morrey is a dead man walking. Jada is sending Will Smith is to the next meeting and smack his fat ass silly…
Marc Stein’s newsletter gave his All-Lefty team today:
Backcourt:
Brunson
De’Aaron Fox
Frontcourt:
RJ
Randle
Sabonis
6th Man:
Luke Kennard
So we have our star targets
thanks z-man…leveraged yours and made edits
Tier 1 :
John Condon
marty glickman
pete vecsey
The Captain
Marv Albert
Breen
Red Holzman
Clyde
Bernard King
Ewing
Tier 2:
danny whelan/mike saunders
pat riley
Earl Monroe
Dave DeBusschere
Bill Bradley
Jalen Brunson
Sugar Ray richardson
Tier 3:
rick pitino
Allan Houston
Dick Barnett
Larry Johnson
Latrell Sprewell
Amare Stoudemire
Anthony Mason
Charles Oakley
Bob McAdoo
Jerry Lucas
John Starks
Marcus Camby
Tier 4/5
Ray Williams
Jamal Crawford
Cazzie Russell
Mitchell Robinson
Immanuel Quickley
Truck Robinson
Kenny Bannister
Hubert Davis
Johnny Newman
Marvin Webster
Louis Orr
(Invisi)Bill Cartwright
Darrell Walker
Spencer Haywood
Doc Rivers
X Man
Randle
jackson/strickland
Z–Man, thanks for putting Bernard in Tier 1, where he belongs.
Z-Man, curious — favorite Knicks, or objectively best Knicks?
For example, whether/if I put Carmelo totally differs based on that.
Yeah, I’d have a hard time putting Melo any higher than Tier 3, if that. Did not enjoy, even though he was obviously an excellent player for most of his tenure with us.
Where is John Gianelli? Cazziie Russell even remotely related to JR? Raymond Felton to Phil Jackson?? Louis Orr and Spencer Hayward?
yeah Gianelli is a special case….so is Pat Cummings…
Actually these are the ones I was most looking forward to! Nate Robinson has to be in someone’s Tier 1, right?
I left Melo out completely. Almost left that whole team out, actually. My fondness for it has waned significantly
From Begley:
More here: https://sny.tv/articles/inside-the-numbers-on-josh-hart-s-contract-extension-with-knicks
Jeez, how did I leave out Marv Albert!? Good one, Pepper. Face palm emoji.
I probably should have put Pat Riley in Tier 2 but I’m still bitter.
I left out Marcus Camby and Tyson Chandler due to petty bitterness, too. Marcus for not showing in the playoffs against the Raptors (literally and figuratively), and Tyson for getting rolled by Roy Hibbert.
how bout negative 10 Tier:
kiki vandeweghe
steve francis
washed ro blackman
john mcleod/don nelsen/derreck fisher/jeff “horny” hornacek/fizzzzzzdale
james dolan
When I put Bernard in Tier 2, it was 100% down to respect for Patrick Ewing. I feel like the big man deserved some separation.
I love Bernard but he played 3 seasons here. Patrick carried this franchise for 15 years.
My only major tier question is does Dolan have his own circle of bell or is Isiah there with him?
Lee Nailon
My knicks viewing started around the time of the dunk…. but shocked to see no mention of the shining light of late 2000s knicks, Jared jeffries – what a player
Hubert, this is fair, love Patrick too. However, and, I’m giving you my best Bernard game face when I say this-B is Tier 1.
“By tier 4 it’s players who have become memes I enjoy such as JR Smith untying shoelaces, Eddy Curry eating, the Plague, Coach East is BIG, Chief Triangle, Bargs GIFs, Markkatamaran”
As far as I can recall, Lauri Markkanen was never on the Knicks, regardless of how you want to spell his name.
What is a “circle of bell”? It actually sounds kind of pleasant. 🙂
“Z-Man, curious — favorite Knicks, or objectively best Knicks?”
It was a combination. I tried to stay true to Pelton’s approach re: how would this player fare if on a championship-level team, taking only their Knicks tenure into account, i.e. as the player they were during their prime Knicks time?
That’s why I put the four guys into Tier 1 that I did…I feel they would have been cornerstone players on a championship-capiber team in any era. I struggled a bit with Melo between Tier 1 and 2. I think he could have been a strong #2 on a team with the right #1. As bitter as some like Alan are about him, he never really played on a Knicks team with a player anywhere close to as good as him. Yet he was all-NBA twice and an MVP candidate once during his time with us. In any case, putting him in Tier 3 just doesn’t feel right, regardless of how things turned out.
I struggled with King as well. Bernard King was as deserving of MVP in 1983-84 as any NYK ever, and may have been on his way to the award when he blew out his knee. He is the single most exciting player I have ever watched in a Knicks uniform. I know his tenure was short, but his peak was unparalleled. While I can see the counterargument that if his jersey isn’t even retired, separation from Ewing, Reed and Clyde is necessary…I have no doubt that he could have been the alpha on a championship team. With Melo, there is some doubt, hence the Tier 2…although for now he’s by far the best player I put in that tier. Everyone 5-10 is more of an option 2 on a championship team in my opinion.
I put into Tier 3: integral championship starters (Barnett, Bradley) the most elite of the role players on good teams (Oak, Mase) as well as “stars” who through no fault of their own played on bad teams (Marbury, McAdoo).
Tier 4 were players who were either excellent (but not elite) in their role (Derek Harper, Cazzie Russell) or brilliant at times but inconsistent (Ray Williams) or injury prone (KP, Gallo)
Tier 5 was sort of a catch-all honorable mention list of guys that either were important in some way for a decent amount of time (Trent Tucker, Ernie Grunfeld) or who had multiple super-bright moments and were fun to watch (Nate, Johnny Newman). I’d probably switch some guys between Tiers 4 and 5 if I look at the list tomorrow, but these were my first impressions.
“but shocked to see no mention of the shining light of late 2000s knicks, Jared jeffries – what a player”
He would certainly be a fair inclusion in my Tier 5…I just couldn’t do it. Herb Williams too.
I’m not a big fan of Melo’s, but the season where he won the scoring title by a tenth of a point or something was memorable and I was really rooting for him to make it.
Tier 1:
Clyde
Brunson
Camby (my now deceased grandpa took me to a game in 1999. I loved Camby and got a Camby jersey I still have. At the time it was a little big on 4 year-old TNFH, it now fits comfortably on a large stuffed penguin the same grandfather got me)
Tier 2:
Breen
Lin
STAT
Novak
Quickley
Mitch
JR
Nate Rob
Prigioni
KP (I am sorting guys based on how I felt about them at the peak of my opinion on them)
Tier 3:
Tyson
Melo
Crawford
Marbury (his first year was the first year I “followed the team” in any meaningful sense)
David Lee
Gallo
Wilson Chandler
Landry Fields
Willy Hernangomez
Tier 4:
Al Harrington
Felton
Toney Douglas
Shump
Copeland
Obi
Grimes
Tier 5:
Bullock
KOQ
Galloway
Trier
Trey Burke
Hart
Deuce
If it was “favorite Knicks” Nate would be way up there, along with Obi. I’d probably have Kenny Sky in there, too (seeing a trend here?).
Fun seeing names I haven’t thought of in a long time (Big Al, Trent, Copeland, Willy). Not sure they’d make it on my list, but some good memories.
I was thinking it would be more personal/subjective rather than a true ranking. The latter is kinda boring and doesn’t really tell us much about the poster.
Edit: I moved Randle around a bunch (telling in and if itself) and thus accidentally left him off entirely. He’s in tier.
If you’ve seen The Good Place, you know what a Circle of (Kristen) Bell is
Marcus Penguin.
Tier 5: Orr, Herb, Green, Foul Dudley, Tucker, Lohaus, Kenny Walker, Marbury, Novak, Condon, Jerome Williams
Tier 4: J New, Rolando, Saunders, Bonner, Houston, K Thomas, Grunwald, Balkman
Tier 3: Mason, Buck Williams, Ewing, Starks, Browne-Sanders, Carlisle, Butler, Jamal Crawford, D Lee
Tier 2: Sprewell, Lin, Amirante, Mark Jackson, VanDeWeghe, Starks, Marv
Tier 1: Camby, Van Gundy, Oakley, Clyde, Fields, Turiaf
(Least favorite tier: Rod Strickland, Carmelo Anthony, James L Dolan, JR Smith, Ward, Pat Cummings, Isiah)
Okay, here goes.
Tier 1
Clyde
Reed
Ewing
Breen
Marv
Tier 2
King
Debusschere
Jeremy Lin
Quickley
Tier 3
Oakley
David Lee
Marcus Camby
Nate Robinson
Mark Jackson (ugh)
Prigs
Brunson
Mitch
Starks
Tier 4
Stat
Hart
Novak
Hubie Davis
Mason
Tucker
Tier 5
Deuce McBride
Landry Fields
Obi Toppin
Louis Orr
Renaldo Balkman
Kenny Sky Walker
Langston Fucking Galloway
Ron Mopheaded Hustlebunny Baker
Tier 1: Ewing, Houston, Melo
Tier 2: Starks, Oak, Spree
Tier 3: LJ, Harper, Mase, Camby
Tier 4: Tyson Chandler, David Lee, Kurt Thomas, Jamal Crawford, JR Smith
Tier 5: Nate, Amare, Al Harrington, Gerald Wilkins, Michael Beasley
Announcers is too obvious, we have been super lucky to go from Marv and Johnny Hoops to Breen and Clyde. All 4 would be Tier 1!
hmm…nobody put Mo Lucas on their list…in hindsight…i would put him in Tier 3…
We need more Andy Rautins, and Ron Baker is tier 1
don’t see lance thomas on anyone’s list…
lance thomas played basketball the right way…
there was a time where that was as good as it got…
honorable mention to jared jeffries…
Anuche Browne Sanders in Donnie’s Tier 3 takes the prize.
Amirante is a great shout, too. I associate him more with the Rangers, though. I feel like the Knicks didn’t use him as much, am I wrong?
Forgot about Bill Walker and Shawn extra E Williams.
Whoever came up with the nickname Extra E is in Tier 3.
Fuk who was it?? I started using Extra E cause everyone else did and it was brilliant. Only time I really remember having a debate about him was a game I think in Philly where he passed up a corner 3pter at the end of the game and we were all pissed that he didn’t take the shot.
Don’t forget Red Panda…
Don’t forget Red Panda…
truth be told – i kind of mostly watch to see if she’ll fall…
Pretty sure Extra E was a Seth Rosenthal thing
In 1989 the resurgent Knicks enjoyed a 25 game home winning streak. John Amirante sang the anthem a lot during that streak, but he didn’t sing it for the game against the Sixers that ended the streak, and I took note.
That sounds right. He was great at nicknames
Dred, Jowles, Z-man, Caven, Silverman, Farfa and Ptmilo are definitely tier 1. Mike K and Cronin are tier God is an Admin. Sorry Donnie, limited volume keeps you at tier 2.
For the Red Panda fans
https://www.si.com/nba/2019/08/28/red-panda-rong-niu-nba-halftime-china-76ers-warriors