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[news.google.com] — Thursday, July 6, 2023 1:12:31 PM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, July 6, 2023 11:48:41 AM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, July 6, 2023 11:35:37 AM
Knicks Trade Obi Toppin to Pacers; What’s Next? Sports Illustrated
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Knicks News: New York scouts Bryce James, reported free agent … Daily Knicks
132 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.07.07)”
Is anyone here sick enough to watch much, if any, of summer league? There are certain small data points to look for. There’s an outside chance Quincy Roby could wind up in the rotation, or at least be a PF option in the event of injuries. It would be nice to see if Trevor Keels looks any more like an NBA player than he did last year, and to see what kind of raw material we have to work with in Jaylen Martin. But I just can’t see myself sitting down to see what Duane Washington Jr. might turn out to be, you know?
(Speaking of which, it was reported yesterday that Jacob Toppin is not on a two-way, since those three slots are being taken by Martin, Keels, and Washington. Toppin’s on an Exhibit 10, which makes much more sense given his relative prospect status. Wouldn’t be shocked to see him on the Westchester roster, but he is what we thought he was.)
Oh, I’m quite sick.
Summer keeps me healthy enough not to watch. Will tune in for Wemby though.
This would be my counter to the Clips for PG:
Barrett, Deuce, two first-round picks (one protected), two second-round picks.
And, of course, there would be no extension for him (idk why that’s a sticking point (the Clips don’t need to care, and there’s nothing George can do about it.)
But honestly, we should cut bait on RJ anyway. He’s never going to live up to his contracts in this league, so getting any positive return would be great.
I’d be shocked if Quincy Roby makes our rotation. However, Isaiah Roby has a real shot. (Just bustin’, Alan, how are you feeling?)
the knicks summer league is not worth tuning in for.. or even worth looking at box scores… but i’ll tell you what… okc’s summer league squad is STACKED…. like this is probably the dream team of summer league stacked… i’m not sure if they’ll wind up taking everyone to vegas… and jalen williams absolutely does not belong there… but….
chet holmgren
jaylin williams
jalen williams
tre mann
ousmane dieng
jared butler
that’s just the returning guys…. here are the draftees…
cason wallace
keyontae johnson (rooting for him hard)
and here are the summer league flyers…
jahmius ramsey
zhaire smith (whaat?)
they’re probably not going to blow everyone out since these are glorified pickup games but if you like tuning in to summer league… they have a roster full of guys worth tuning in for…
what they have brewing there is quite amazing and it’s just about to come online… presti has really outdone himself this time and he drafted 3 mvps….
Paul George is a very fragile commodity. He’s averaged 1500 minutes a season for the last 4 seasons, and Thibs ain’t load managing him. If he went down, you can kiss the idea of building a contender in the next 5 years goodbye, whether we extend him or not.
I will continue to believe that giving up on a player like RJ before he has played a minute beyond age 22 is selling low, especially after he was our second best player in the playoff run. I get not liking the aesthetics of his game, but selling low is not the answer. And it sounds an awful lot like the arguments used last year for selling low on Randle.
I wish Lillard to Miami and Harden to wherever deals would get wrapped up already. They are holding other things up.
If Morey can’t keep Harden in Philly or at least replace him with someone that will keep Embiid happy, that opens the door to Embiid wanting out and us getting involved. Once these two big deals are settled, some other significant deals might still get done. The Knicks may not have anything in mind, but if they do they can’t do anything until they see the status of Embiid.
That’s the major problem with George. We are going to have to give up a couple of key pieces in our rebuild for a 2 year widow in which he’s 50-50 to get hurt in the playoffs. It makes no long term sense strategically.
Not to say I’m sorry we didn’t land Mitchell because I’m not. That was a big overpay for a less than ideal fit. But at least with Mitchell there was a long runway to contend.
Just to clarify, RJ wasn’t “great” in the playoffs, but he was good enough to make an impression around the league that the best is yet to come. He didn’t shoot any better from 3 (32.8%) or from 2 (49.5%) than he did during the regular season, but after a slow start he was a visibly dominant player until laying an egg in Game 6 vs. the Heat. Not many 22yo’s could do what he did for 7 of the 11 games. And guess what? He was in uniform. You can pretty much bank on him being in the lineup for 70+ games and the playoffs.
His contract will never be hard to move, and might be the key to a trade for a guy like Embiid or Giannis or Doncic. He’s a no-brainer hold for me, at least for next season, given the guys we’re talking about acquiring at inflated prices…LaVine, PG13, OG…
Now if the price on OG was lower, I could see biting, but not for RJ plus multiple firsts, no way.
Alan, do you have a link for this, because other sites say Toppin is on a two way contract:
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-two-way-exhibit-10-contracts-explained-tracking-undrafted-player-signings-2023-nba-draft/pdmt1vk8p63xvdcksptlxkgf
And that Keels has been given a two way qualifying offer:
https://mobile.twitter.com/FredKatz/status/1674502385966673934
And these are recent articles
Toppin is on an Exhibit 10 deal, meaning that he is training camp fodder. He apparently suffered a minor injury that will keep him out of summer league. He is NOT on a two-way deal, as per Katz:
https://twitter.com/FredKatz/status/1677072939890651136
Per this site, Trevor Keels qualifying offer was made on June 29th and was for $1.8M
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/trevor-keels-78153/
To quote:
Now why he wouldn’t just have signed for that I don’t know. I wasn’t thinking of Keels as a hot commodity who might have interest from other teams.
The Katz link is later than the Sporting News link, so it probably is an exhibit 10 deal. I don’t know what to make of Keels’ contract status though.
And Alan, I’d like to watch at least one Summer league game. But most of the Knicks games are on NBA TV, which I don’t have access to
It’s not, though. For one, I wanted to sell on him last summer, before the extension. For two, Randle at least showed her could put up great numbers for a full year; all we’ve every got from RJ were streaks of good games – not great, but good. For three, Randle has an evident physical advantage as well as skill – he is a beast who few single defenders can contain, quick and powerful. RJ is powerful, but not quick, not explosive. Two very different players, two very different situations.
I like RJ. I know he’s young. But 4 seasons is enough time to have a pretty clear idea of the parameters. PG would give us an immediate window as a contender. An incredibly risky one, and I don’t know if I’d do the trade, but IF he stayed healthy, we would be very difficult to beat.
Jalen Williams playing in summer league is hilarious. The guy was a heavy rotation player on a playoff team. That’s just bullying.
Re: RJ, I don’t think anyone is looking to dump his contract for nothing in return. He’s just the most logical candidate to trade as part of a package for a star, because his usage is approximately star level, which renders fitting a star in easy–he just more or less takes RJ’s minutes and shots, and his salary is pretty big. He also provides less present value than IQ and Grimes, so it makes sense to send him out as part of a win now trade.
And yeah, Randle has deservedly made two all-NBA teams. There are all kinds of valid questions about his role on a contender, his playoff performance, etc. but there’s clear cut proof of concept for Julius Randle: Good NBA Player.
Still waiting on that for RJ.
The simple solution to stopping Randle in the postseason, i.e. put a tall forward on him, seems all too real, though. I mean hell, even Danilo Galinari could do it.
“And yeah, Randle has deservedly made two all-NBA teams. There are all kinds of valid questions about his role on a contender, his playoff performance, etc. but there’s clear cut proof of concept for Julius Randle: Good NBA Player.”
But at this time last year, you were one of the most ardent advocates for using sweetener for dumping Randle. I said at the time that that would be an incredibly short-sighted move, and for largely the same reasons I am against trading RJ as salary filler in a star deal right now…that he is at a low valuation point that is much more likely to improve than stay where it is or drop further. I think risking that RJ’s value will be higher as we go forward is a good bet, just as it was with Julius, albeit for somewhat different reasons.
There’s obviously some risk associated with the belief that the best is yet to come with RJ, but I am of the mind that it is a risk well worth taking. He just turned 23. I’m not buying that he has stabilized at this level, regardless of his prior 4 years at age 19-22. I think his good/great games will become more frequent and his bad games less frequent, and that will lift his advanced stats, just like the 7-4 good-to-bad game ratio lifted them. And if I couldn’t make a make right now that factors in a higher ceiling, then I would just keep him and bet on his upside increasing his value, both to us and to other teams.
Put differently, if you are going to consider RJ’s last four years as determinative, then do the same for Paul George. What has he done in the last 4 years to warrant exchanging RJ plus multiple other assets for him?
RJ’s two playoff games vs Cleveland are the ultimate SSS, but it gives him more proof that he can be effective in the postseason than Randle has.
Tired. Hence my slip. That, or just old age.
I also think that Thibs and Leon now have a full season of data on the Brunson-Randle-RJ usage balance conundrum. There was some valuable learning to be had from the postseason post-mortem. At this point, I would only make a deal that was a clear winner, and not one that was about filling a need no matter the cost. That seems to be the patient, opportunistic approach that Leon is taking, thankfully. Not to say that he’s executing it perfectly, but I’m good with it for now.
I don’t think there’s been a player in modern association history whose market value diverges as much from his superficial on-court “value” as Julius Randle. We all know the reason why, as do the association’s personnel people.
He’s literally the ultimate mezzanine asset. Just good enough to win but not really win with. No one has ever mezzanined as well as Julius has mezzanined.
Notwithstanding his voraciously frothing haters around here, the move is obviously to ride RJ’s next four years out here, absent some real upgrade. Things like RJ and 3 unprotected 1s for OG Anunoby are nuts.
MSG Sphere looks amazing as a basketball to promote the NBA Summer League.
https://twitter.com/SphereVegas/status/1677188658867363840
“Tired. Hence my slip. That, or just old age.”
lol my wife sent me out grocery shopping yesterday with a written list of less than ten items. She wrote the most important item in LARGE CAPITAL LETTERS. When I got home, guess which item I forget to buy?
But as it is a Dolan’s project, it has to have things like this.
randle’s problem is that he’s not a great iso player since his midrange game is not playoff ready…. a big part of his rejuvenation was his work in floater/hook range where he shot a great.. but probably unsustainable… .519…
the ankle may have impacted him but he was getting similar defensive looks as in atlanta meaning.. they were taking away his paint opportunities by shading a defender on a potential drive and he’s left with those not really so great step back fades….
most pf’s have this problem against playoff defenses too and they.. almost to a man… have to evolve to develop a midrange game to compensate… randle’s not there yet and he could be due for a major regression if he doesn’t since it’s not just a playoff issue… as he ages he’s not going to be able to finish as well either… you see it in his 3pt attempts too as it’s already starting to happen…. he needs to operate better further away from the basket….
alot of that could be solved if he relied less on iso.. but i dont think a thibs offense will evolve in that direction unfortunately…
RJ has really done the bare minimum in terms of progression but his progress in 2pt territory is encouraging… if he can carry over his jump in ftr and improve in any one category he will hit league average production….
he’s not that far away and it will look completely shocking and almost a sea change but it actually won’t be…. it’s just a matter of doing what he already does more consistently and without the ‘i’m gonna shoot this shot no matter what happens’ type of possessions he has…. which up to this point is maybe quite difficult to shake but it’s a relatively small change compared to others who have more foundational issues….
RJ is improving. IMO he will continue to improve. He’s just improving at a very slow pace.
If anything, it’s going to be easier to trade him later than now because years will slowly come off the contract and he’ll be better.
The risk is in the projection of what the final product will look like 3-4 years from now. It’s the same risk we took on when we extended him. If we trade him for someone that’s better now, there’s short term upside, but 3 years from now we may be kicking ourselves because RJ is younger and a bit better than the player we brought in.
There’s no right answer to questions like that. There are probabilities.
If we trade him, imo it only makes sense if it’s part of a deal to bring in a player that’s also relatively young (maybe a few years older at most). That takes away some of the long term risk. At least we’ll still have a good player at the end of the 3-4 years. If he’s part of a deal for a player that’s pushing 30 or older now or with an injury history we are clearly taking on long term downside for short term upside. I’d be against that. I think we should still be thinking both short and long term.
Call me crazy, but I think an injury that required surgery might have had an impact on his performance. Just spitballin’ here.
Well, if RJ is on such an upward trajectory, E, he probably will have a better 2023-24 season than Randle, right? Would you bet on it? Or will he be worse than the ultimate mezzanine asset?
LOL, i’ve done worse than that, there was one time that i went to the supermarket to buy ONE PRODUCT (let’s call it product X), started seeing other stuff i wanted to buy and then when i got to the car i thought “but… but… you were here to buy product X and you have a bunch of stuff and no product X!?” 😛
I’ve asked E a number of times to go on the record and say when RJ will have his first league average efficiency season. He’s always passed. Weird that we have such a budding star yet his biggest supporter doesn’t even feel comfortable saying he’ll ever be…average.
After Frank Ntilikina, Cam Reddish, and this year’s playoffs I think E is permanently out of the “predictions that can be falsified” business.
I specifically said I would not do this multiple times. I was in favor of dumping him in asset neutral fashion. We didn’t and I’m glad we didn’t in hindsight because I think he’s returned to having actual trade value, albeit lower trade than his AIO box score metrics would indicate due to various fit issues, but I was always against using sweetener.
With RJ, I’m going even further and saying the playoffs were enough to change my mind about just washing our hands of the contract if possible. Literally all I’m saying is we should be willing to trade RJ in a trade that makes us better, as it is eminently logical to do so.
Y’all are squinting real hard through your Knicks-colored glasses when it comes to RJ.
He’s basically a less athletic Kelly Oubre—a guy who cannot seem to get a contract at age 27 (he might get a taxpayer midlevel eventually if he’s lucky.)
RJ has a bit higher usage and gets to the FT line more (and misses more) but is a worse shooter and accumulates less stocks. Otherwise, they are very similar. In fact, Oubre’s 2pt% went up his first few years like RJ’s.
Honestly, if RJ ever has a season like Oubre’s 2021-22 season, it would be a miracle.
By the way, I am extremely skeptical Keels got a $1.8 M qualifying offer. If there is such a thing as a two way contract qualifying offer, I think he might have gotten that despite the reporting otherwise. But that doesn’t make much sense either
I can’t tell you how much it warms my heart to hear you enjoyed Clarke’s Rama…he had such a positive humanistic perspective…
soooooooooooo many authors always have this dystopian prospective of the future…
Clarke, Asimov, Sagan were all much more sciencey and encouraging…I appreciated their views so much…
that was like an absolutely awesome story rama, that was pretty cool…
you mentioned playing the piano (go to see a symphony is still on my to do list), I’m guessing you’re familiar with other instruments – do you also write music and lyrics?
rj is not kelly oubre… oubre is much more of a play finisher… meaning he’s doing stuff off cuts… catch and shoots… he does more off the dribble now but he’s not doing anything on the pnr or doing much about shot creation… people look to him to finish shots and that’s where most of his usg comes from… he’s always been over 50% on assisted 2p fg’s… and when he was on an actual good team it was more like 57-67%….
rj probably should be doing more of that…. but as it stands he’s much more central to an offense than oubre will ever be…. which is why rj is valued and oubre never was… oubre is a role player who never has put it together behind the line.. yet… i have a feeling he’ll put together a trevor ariza like career tho…
rj otoh has potential to be a lot more… and yes he’s only 23 which is why you can still talk about potential… time is running out tho but all the pieces are there…. he just has to do it more consistently….
just re-read your post from yesterday, you do write music and lyrics, you also draw…
more nosyness, is your current “job” creative in nature?
I still believe we should actively try to trade either RJ or Randle because of team construction, spacing, ball movement, and basketball IQ issues.
I have no problem with waiting until the trade deadline if they want to take another look at all the young players to see what kind of development we have.
I would rather stay with RJ than Randle because I think Randle is overrated and RJ has upside, but since moving Randle seems to be something they are not even considering, trading RJ should be on the table. I’m just insisting the player be in his mid 20s so we are not trading short term upside for a huge long term downside.
We have a variety of our own and other team’s picks and pick swaps we can package depending on the player.
Both Keels and Washington got a 1.8 QO on june 29th.
The trick is that 2-way QO are usually only guaranteed for 50K, but their cap holds are full.
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2023/06/2023-nba-qualifying-offer-recap.html
Maybe is a favor to the players, now an NBA team has to make an higher offer to sign them and in the meantime they can (re)negotiate a new contract with the Knicks. Or maybe not 🙂
I’m debating spending the ~$150 airfare from Denver to go for a couple games
This makes so much more sense. We now have 1 open roster spot.
Given how long it took to come out, I half wonder if this is retroactive after they found out he was hurt
If you ever wanted to know what it’s like to have 2 Jokics on the same team, Jalen & Chet in SL is a good opportunity to do so
I know you’re being hyperbolic, but Zach Randolph was once traded straight-up for a heart that was deemed to damaged to ever play basketball again, then promptly made two all star games. Julius just can’t compete with that market value vs superficial on-court value. No one can.
Spotrac is very good with contract details. If they say it’s $1.8M, I’m inclined to believe it.
EB, that is a deep, deep sickness. Unless you are going to watch the other teams and not ours.
“He’s literally the ultimate mezzanine asset. Just good enough to win but not really win with. No one has ever mezzanined as well as Julius has mezzanined.
Notwithstanding his voraciously frothing haters around here, the move is obviously to ride RJ’s next four years out here, absent some real upgrade. ”
On the other hand, reflexive contrarianism is, as the economist Adam Ozimek puts it, a “brain rotting drug.” — Paul Krugman
Randle has his moments, but overall his impact on winning is lower than his boxscore stats suggest and the league knows it. That’s why his market value is seemingly not as high as you would think.
He holds the ball too much, forces himself into tough situations that lead to bad shots and TOs a little too often, takes too many possessions off on defense, and is emotionally volatile. That’s not the profile of a winning player. So whatever the boxscore says, it gets discounted.
You’re acting like Keels and Martin aren’t budding 15th men!!!
Nah, I just always mean to go because its so close. Hopefully catch OKC & Houston.
Thanks Max. That makes more sense
My wife recently had me leave a party early to go pick up my 5 year old at her friend’s house. I got home and realized that I’d forgotten to pick the kid up. It was my one job and, well, I just forgot. Sleep deprivation can sneak up on you! (I thought my wife would be more angry with me, but it turned out she was relieved that despite my sleep deprivated paternal failures I was still able to discern the difference between Quincy Acy and Isaiah Roby, so all was well that ended well).
League average efficiency at those levels of usage isn’t an average player.
We’re never really going to have a meeting of the minds around here with stuff like, “usage doesn’t matter — a 10 year old can play in an association game and have his shot blocked 30 times!”
Just to bore everyone,
giving a QO to a 2-way player you made him RFA and “tied” him, risking a minimum amount of money, preventing other teams to sweep him in “for free”.
– You can rescind the QO at any moment if you need cap space.
– You can cut the player immediately if he accept the offer and you need cap space (paying 50K and freeing his cap hold).
– You can work with him and his agent, agree to rescind the QO and sign him to a new different contract.
– You can match any offer from other teams or let him go, freeing your cap holds.
Basically is a good way to keep a player “of some interest” on your roster while you do the “real” work in the offseason.
Then you can ruthlessly cut him 😉
(I’m joking, we’re a players & agents friendly team).
The greatest Summer League team ever was the year Nate Robinson and Renaldo Balkman lead the Knicks to an undefeated record.
The problem with RJ last year was more his defense, which universally grades out as atrocious
Metrics, except for BPM, have him slightly below average on offense
Strawman nonsense. Everyone agrees there’s a role for a guy who can soak up a lot of usage even if it’s on less than stellar efficiency.
Of course, for that guy to be useful, his efficiency still cannot be dreadful. Dreadful efficiency is simply not useful.
Andrew Wiggins was useful to the 2022 Warriors because he could muster league average efficiency (.560 TS% compared to .566 league average TS%, 99 TS%+) on high-ish usage (23.1%).
So I’ll ask again, will RJ Barrett ever have league average efficiency on a USG% of 20 or higher? If so, when?
If everyone else here is an idiot who cannot see the greatness before their very eyes, this should be easy. Obviously such an outstanding player will accomplish this feat, which is admittedly such a tall task only *checks notes* 71 players were able to pull it off in 2022-2023.
Yesterday, ThisChicanery said (sorry just saw this today),
I should have worded what I said better. Better to have said that A Boy and His Dog is a love story about a boy and his dog.
That take came to me from my Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy professor, Dr. Jon Manchip White, back at UT in the mid 80’s. I’d only thought about it as a post apocalyptic coming of age story. But, once we talked about the ending, what Vic does and why he does it, it all made sense.
“I specifically said I would not do this multiple times. I was in favor of dumping him in asset neutral fashion. We didn’t and I’m glad we didn’t in hindsight because I think he’s returned to having actual trade value, albeit lower trade than his AIO box score metrics would indicate due to various fit issues, but I was always against using sweetener.”
As I recall, you repeatedly referred to him as “the worst contract in the association,” “the most detrimental to winning,” and an albatross. You repeatedly expressed that you wanted to dump him, and just about everyone knew that it would cost assets to do so. So I don’t know what you meant in an asset-neutral deal means in that context…are you saying that you would not have used 2 seconds? One of our protected firsts? Would you have been upset if Leon did that? My guess is that you would have been thrilled.
It’s pretty clear that you still consider RJ to be a detrimental player. So what do you think is fair value in a non-urgent salary dump? One unprotected first? A couple of seconds?
It’s a relevant question because that’s what we are really discussing here, isn’t it? What should we get back for RJ in a trade? I mean, we just got 2 shitty seconds for Obi, who I believe some here think was better than RJ. Would you have traded him for what John Collins yielded…a single second and Rudy Gay? I mean statistically, Collins was waaaay better than RJ…so it’s not a crazy thought…
My point is, if that’s RJ’s current value, you bet on his upside rather than dump his salary at the current market value., even if it’s for a better player. In that sense, it’s a similar situation to Julius….in fact, I think dumping RJ at age 23 is an even worse idea than it would have been to dump Julius after his worst season. And using his age 19-22 stats to justify the salary dump would be as short-sighted as suggesting that Julius was in some kind of physical decline and couldn’t get to the rim anymore, as was done last year at this time.
I would not trade RJ right now for anything less than the value of an unprotected first from a likely lottery team. I doubt that his value will ever be lower than it is right at this time. If he plays next year like he is right now, some GM will still be enamored with a 23yo to give you what ATL got for Collins. After what he showed in the playoffs, you take that risk every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
It isn’t a strawman in the least. It was explicitly said.
Whenever this came up I was clearly against it. My whole point was that we should try to trade him before it required sweetener. You won’t be able to find a single post of mine saying we should trade Randle with sweetener, because I never said it, because I never thought it.
If we trade RJ, it’s going to be in some kind of attempted upgrade. His salary basically requires as much. I am simply saying we should be: 1) open to that and 2) all else being equal, should choose to include him in such a trade instead of IQ.
League average TS% when?
Not that — the “10 year old usage” thing. Not a strawman. Explicitly mentioned.
But when will RJ Barrett put up a league average TS% with a usage rate of 20 or higher? 71 players did it this past season. It’s quite doable, especially for a budding star everyone else is here is too stupid to appreciate.
What a golden opportunity for you to show us how wrong we all are, by telling us when we can expect this to happen!
But that wouldn’t be an average player, which was your initial question. Here’s your original slur of me:
Now after that false slur, you’re demanding an answer to another question. Why? Are you wondering when he’ll have league average efficiency or when he’ll be an average player?
See, this is what happens when one froths at unfavored players. Confusion.
It’s weird to pick RJ Barrett as one’s most hated Knick. Simply bizarre. Doesn’t really compute with me. It’s a free country and a free board so it can be (continuously and boringly) posted over and over, but it remains bizarre.
… not to mention the shiftiness in the “20 usage” when the guy’s an over 26 usage guy. Everything’s just bias and shade and shift. Who cares about average efficiency at 20 usage? He’s not a 20 usage guy or close.
I was watching The Great last night and my interest was kind of flagging on the whole show as it got kind of stale, then holy shit that middle episode and the next were fantastic
We’re players and agents friendly… if they’re CAA! 😛
I’d like to say that my belief in RJ is fading, but i’d very much like for E, Z-Man, Strat, DJ and all his defenders to be right. RJ having a breakout season would be the best outcome for 2023-24.
“It’s weird to pick RJ Barrett as one’s most hated Knick.”
Not so weird. Who else? Randle used to be it for me, but he cleaned up his act (again) for the most part at least — while he still can’t stop the unforced errors, they’re way down. I only scream at him once or twice a game as compared to that many times each quarter the previous year. And his consistent 30-10 is hard to argue with.
RJ has stalled out in development and has slid past Randle to take over the lead in screamingly horrible unforced errors. He’s literally no fun to watch outside of the occasional (and all too infrequent) “RJ’s Going Off” games.
I’m actually with Z-Man that you don’t trade him at this nadir point unless it’s a no-brainer improvement opportunity, and that there’s every chance he improves to, dare I say it, league average, given his age. So in fact I don’t hate him. I just hated watching him this past year.
I’m starting to think we should’ve just kept him, and let him reach free agency next summer. One season of Obi as our backup 4 is probably better than the picks we got.
To you. But not remotely universally.
I will say as a general basketball aesthetics observation that anyone going about this who likes watching players because they’re “efficient,” or because they have a pretty BB-ref page, kind of pretty much isn’t going about this whole thing in quite the right way.
I’ll take the two, likely crappy, 2nds just because I think Donte is a better player and I don’t see us missing Obi much from a basketball perspective (as a fan of bouncy players who dunk a lot I’ll miss him terribly)
That’s good to know – I made it through 3 episodes and just, eh. I appreciate the actors, but couldn’t get interested. Maybe I’ll try again.
I don’t think he’s going to have a break out season. I think he’s been slowly improving his skillset and will continue to do so.
I’m not sure what his ultimate top will be or when it will occur.
I understand why those that don’t want to trade him feel that way. They are giving good reasons. My counter has simply been I don’t like Randle and RJ on the same team. Since ideally I want want one to be traded, it may have to be RJ only because there is zero indication the Knicks are willing to or can trade Randle. I also think short term RJ is the weak link. But if we do trade him it has to be for someone young. I’m not giving up on RJ now just take some old injured dude.
A reasonable compromise may be to wait until the trade deadline so we get a better look at the all the young players (unless of course we get the perfect pitch to swing at after the Lillard/Harden deals are done).
To be clear, I wanted to trade RJ desperately before the extension in the belief he was at his highest value. Now he is not, and my trade advocacy is only in the context of an upgrade that requires salary going out and picks. PG13 probably isn’t it, but RJ, Fournier & picks is the kind of offer I have in mind. (Like TNFH and others, I suspect.) No one is talking about a salary dump. As for “most hated,” I doubt a single poster doesn’t like RJ – unlike Randle or Rose. I personally find this a very root-able group of players. I am just realistic about dudes who don’t make the leap in the first three years. (Never mind four.) It isn’t likely.
In EPM, RJ Barrett is squarely below average, ranking above Marcus Morris Sr. and below John Collins. For guys his age, he was tied with Deni Avdija but behind Sochan and Jalen Green.
He fares much worse in Raptor WAR where he’s 236th out of 250 nba players. And most of the guys below him were rookies or 2nd year guys.
Yes, he’s 23, but he’s going into his FIFTH year as a pro. I’ll continue to root for him as a Knick, but he probably should have been moved for the cap space alone by now.
Ha, the 20% usage cutoff was a favor to E. Allows for E to still claim victory in a situation in which RJ reaches league average efficiency because he lowers his usage.
So we’re all a bunch of rubes for not seeing the greatness, yet E will not predict that RJ Barrett will reach even league average efficiency.
Sounds like he’s not so sure we’re a bunch of idiots after all, and can safely be ignored on the topic. Easier to call everyone stupid for their RJ opinions than it is to actually predict that those opinions won’t age well.
Here’s a bit more on Jaylen Martin, for those curious before he plays this weekend: https://www.sny.tv/articles/knicks-jaylen-martin-undrafted-ticks-boxes-2023
Right — a 23 year old who’s already at 27 usage and who had a better playoff TS% than people like Mikal and Spida is going to cut his usage all the way down to 20 just so he can please a tiny group of haters on the internet.
I’m on season 3, so if you’re talking about season 1 then maybe it just isn’t for you. Can’t say I remember when it clicked for me.
I will say that Nicholas Hoult in that role would’ve gotten me through quite a bit of the show even if the rest of it was awful
Yeah, season 1. Ok, then, forget it.
Hoult was in a project of mine and was fantastic. Excellent actor, good dude. (At least some years ago…)
I always think the basketball in those articles is mostly fluff, but I love that Martin was valedictorian in high school and was taking classes at Morehouse
I think Barrett will likely hit league-average efficiency at some point. His 2pt% took a huge jump last year and even a small jump next year with a return to hitting open threes like he did in year two and most of year three will see his efficiency rise quite a bit.
The problem is his defense is also not very good. If he was a good defender I would be totally fine with his slowly developing offensive game. That is the key, if he can get himself to be a better-than-average wing defender I am okay keeping him long-term, if not then a trade might be the best answer. I do not simply want to dump him though.
My most hated Knick post-Rose being gone is easily Randle. I would dump him for nothing, hell I would give up assets just to not have to watch him in a Knicks uniform ever again. We would probably win fewer games but for me, it would be worth it just to have him gone.
Max, I wasn’t bored. At first, it seemed kind of one sided in favor of the team, but actually the $50K minimum salary is higher than a G league salary and is probably a welcome guarantee for players on the fringe of getting contracts.
I also think RJ will be league average eventually. I don’t know if he will play defense at that point.
E’s point, boiled down, seems to be that RJ broke out in the playoffs and demonstrated the new higher level he is capable of going forward. That is a testable hypothesis. We will see how things turn out.
I mean, obviously you’re entitled to feel how you feel, but off the court he seems like a good guy, never in any trouble, obviously a family man. He’s worked on his “mental,” recognizing a need to control himself better. There’s a lot to like about the guy.
Does he take plays off on D? Way too often. Does he make at least a couple dumb mistakes every single game? Indeed he does. But those are “imperfect player” issues, not alleged rape, not brandishing guns, not domestic violence…I reserve my hate for those guys, not players whose game is less than ideal. (Except maybe Harden…I do hate his game….)
Point is, if how a good citizen plays annoys you so much you’d rather the team lose more games without him, that’s…well, something to look at….
I love how the Knicks’ press release for the Toppin trade gives his weight. WHY?
I could see Fournier being most hated given his contract, doesn’t really seem fair though.
I feel like my frustration with RJ still comes from a place of love, I could see that morphing to hate though, if he’s not improving and still third in minutes and usage.
@BC
Because critics keep saying Obi wasn’t getting fed? 🤷🏾♂️😜
rj’s not guaranteed to do anything… improving and taking the necessary steps to get to the next level is a decision that’s solely up to him…. predicting outcomes can be tricky because no matter how much we pretend to know…. we actually don’t know anything about these guys short of what they let us know about them….. guys like christian wood or hassan whiteside are prime examples…
rj’s not that kind of weird at all…. but he does have some hangups and possibly some mental blockage that prevents him from being consistent despite by all accounts a solid work ethic… andrew wiggins has notoriously been whatevs about basketball and even he was able to find his niche…
that’s the power of time and evolution…. sometimes you just need to survive long enough to discover what it is that you’re good at or fixing whatever it is that’s preventing you from doing so…. many careers outside of basketball follow that general heuristic…
it’s very hard to make it in the nba but the hardest thing to get is the opportunity.. which is why the biggest predictor of success is draft position because the higher you go the more playtime you get and the more chances you get… just look at ntilikina… he has no business being on a nba roster… so if you have the ability or the work ethic and you have a good pedigree… you’re generally setup well for eventual success….
all that is to say that rj looks terrible now…. but it’s a good bet that he’ll be around awhile and the question is how good he’ll be and how fast… many many good to even very good nba players looked rather dire at this point… but if you follow age curves he’s right on the cusp of it… and being able to improve in at least a couple of areas means that he has some survival instincts and the ability to evolve… that’s good… he just needs to iterate and put it all together and hopefully it comes this year….
i am pretty sure unless randle starts hitting midrange shots that he’s going to be most hated this year… again…. and maybe rj won’t outperform him… but the future outlook could very well drastically change to the point where we’re clamoring to get rid of randle instead of rj….
That’s a good one, actually.
E, will RJ Barrett match his playoff TS% next season?
It’s weird that a Knicks fan would root for him not to.
Is Wemby on later?
And we are rooting for him to improve. Obviously. It goes without saying one would think.
Looks like 9 pm is the answer to my question
Wemby plays at 9pm on ESPN. Currently Scoot is apparently already making Charlotte look stupid for passing on him.
Fixed it
Rama – Hate is the wrong word. I have nothing at all against Randle. He seems like a good dude and seems to be a good family man. I wish him a great life. I felt the same way about Carmelo, also seemed like a pretty good guy.
But I watch basketball for fun and I find Randle a frustrating player to watch, he holds the ball too long, makes boneheaded turnovers, and dogs it on defense. I find I enjoy watching the Knicks more when he is on the bench. For that reason alone I want him gone, it would make the Knicks more aesthetically pleasing.
I also think he is not totally conducive to winning so any step back we take from moving him will probably be short-lived and long term we might be better off without him anyway.
Scoot hurt his shoulder, will not return
Randle was just the highest-usage player and only all-NBA player since Melo on essentially a 50-win team at < $27M AAV and he's not conducive to winning?
When Donovan Mitchell, a (I guess) proven playoff failure was 23 he put up a .696 TS% over a 7 game playoff stretch.
What was it that Billy Hoyle told Sidney Deane, I’d rather look ugly and win than look pretty and lose.
We made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs with Randle playing like crap. I think we would be fine without him. Losing him would hurt in the short term but I think if he is leading your team in usage you have a pretty hard ceiling.
“We made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs with Randle playing like crap.”
That’s one way of looking at it. Another is that he was our best or second best player all season and we would have been a play-in team or worse without him, with an almost guaranteed first round exit at best.
“Losing him would hurt in the short term but I think if he is leading your team in usage you have a pretty hard ceiling.”
The hard ceiling this year was 5th seed and competitive second round exit. And that’s with him playing badly/being injured for the playoff run. Do you really think that there’s no way to do better than that with a trade for a 3rd star?
I’m not a huge fan of the aesthetics of his game either, but a player of that caliber at that price is something I can easily get behind. To each his own on the aesthetics, but the actual production and positive impact on winning is indisputable.
All injuries are bad. Not sure if college injuries or summer league injuries are worse.
Is anyone watching Shrinking? I’m like seven episodes in really liking it. My wife is a therapist and absolutely loves it.
I liked Shrinking. I do not like this coaches challenge.
I have a feeling like many former Knick players that Randle will be much more appreciated once he’s gone.
Tari Eason flashing some skills there with the pass
Brian, can we start a summer league overreaction thread?
Harrison Ford is giving his best performance in literally decades on Shrinking. (He says, without having seen Dial of Destiny yet.)
this rocket/blazer game has been a real showcase of some of the athletes that are entering the league.. there’s been a bit of a dry spell in terms of next level athleticism… but scoot and sharpe… whitmore … they all got it… i think amen’s there too but need to see more…
i was really curious to see what amen brought considering the OT elite comp.. and i think it was solid… the dribble is still high which causes him to get stuck on some drives… and the shot i’ll never really buy into it until i see it go down more… but there’s something there and he deserved to go 4….
and wow what a finish…
That was a shockingly cool finish. I wonder if Thibs texted in that end of game play.
I have seen enough. I think it’s fair to say Wemby is a bust.
I think Wemby is gonna be alot more positive on defense than offense in his rookie year.
Wemby’s arms and hands look like those aliens in War of the Worlds
Between the awfulness of this game and having to listen to Mark Jones and Doris Burke, I’m out.
Offense in this game is still better than watching the Yankees offense.
Miller has a beautiful stroke
I dunno about Wemby and the megahype best draft prospect of all time stuff. I see a guy that is going to be physically pushed around and beaten on both ends. I get flashbacks to Marcus Smart manhandling young KP. And of Ralph Sampson hobbling around the court by age 25.
Who will have a higher TS% next season, Wemby or RJ?
If Cleveland had put Mobley on RJ and had Allen waiting for him at the rim he probably wouldn’t have scored. Same with Miami- put RJ at the top of the scouting report and he’s cooked. Randle actually IS a guy who can put up league average efficiency on high usage, maybe RJ can get there but hasn’t even sniffed it yet.
I get the idea that Randle is flawed enough to want to move on from him but RJ is already getting paid, has defensive flaws of his own, and has provided nowhere near the production- it seems like hoping he’ll improve enough down the line to make it worth keeping him over Randle (unless you’re looking to tank) is pretty iffy. Is his ceiling higher than current Randle? Maybe he doesn’t hold the ball as much and is more engaged on defense (even if he ain’t great) but I don’t see it.You should probably be looking to move on from both.
“Same with Miami- put RJ at the top of the scouting report and he’s cooked.”
RJ played really well in 4 of the 6 Miami games, including Game 5.
I obviously have no idea how good Wemby is going to be but I do think he’s a long term prospect. He’s skinny as shit and he wasn’t all that efficient in a garbage french league.
I also am wondering if he has the world’s longest arms
This is now 3 games of Miller playing pretty awful basketball in Summer League.
“I also am wondering if he has the world’s longest arms”
It was weird how he would have like 4 players between him and the ball and his arm would emerge on the other side of them…
Not to overreact but if Wemby was drafted by the Knicks after this performance everyone here would be in full panic mode lol
What I always keep in mind when watching summer league is that time we put Cole into the summer league and he looked like prime Shaq for a hallf and then we shut him down. It’s not serious.
this is pretty weird considering randle was literally not playing in game 1 against miami and rj put up 26/9/7… he was our best player that game….
summer league is a terrible environment for any big…. wemby was playing against pros like a month ago… that is gonna tell you more than anything these games will….
he will be more than fine….
Is it because they are too young to legally gamble, and their height works against them at the nightclubs?
I was not impressed and could not take listening to Doris.
But it means nothing.but SAS may have another high pick coming.
Well, Kevin Knox looked like an All Star and as it seems (i didn’t remember) Brunson looked like this…
Let’s wait for the regular season before starting to draw expectations for Wemby, Scoot and all.