[news.google.com] — Tuesday, July 4, 2023 7:00:00 AM
Obi Toppin Trade: Who’s to Blame For Knicks’ Failure? Sports IllustratedReport: Knicks trading Obi Toppin to Pacers NBA.comKnicks lose Jacob Toppin for Summer League after trading brother Obi New York Post
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, July 4, 2023 1:11:00 AM
Knicks: Biggest need after first weekend of 2023 NBA free agency ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 11:47:00 PM
David Shriver, former Philip Barbour Colt, to play for New York Knicks in NBA Summer League WDTV
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 9:41:00 PM
How to handle Evan Fournier departure remains Knicks’ biggest offseason question New York Post
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 9:08:00 PM
Knicks sign Jaylen Martin on two-way contract Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 9:07:30 PM
Analysis: To contend with top teams, Knicks must do more Newsday
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 7:46:25 PM
Who Are The New York Knicks’ Summer League Rookies? Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 7:29:20 PM
Novato Knicks Hall of Famers encouraged by current team Marin Independent Journal
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 6:31:00 PM
NBA Rumors: Joel Embiid could join Jalen Brunson on Knicks Sportskeeda
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 5:38:27 PM
Knicks’ Patience Signals a Brighter Future NESN
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 5:00:31 PM
Knicks’ updated depth chart after Donte DiVincenzo free agency … Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 4:55:00 PM
Atlantic Notes: J. Brown, Embiid, Knicks, Raptors hoopsrumors.com
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 3:48:43 PM
Knicks stand to gain $18.9 million in salary space by trading shooting guard Empire Sports Media
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 2:43:21 PM
Lupica: For Leon Rose, the hard part of building a contender starts now New York Daily News
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 2:26:01 PM
Knicks 2023 Summer League preview: DaQuan Jeffries returns, Trevor Keels hopes to earn some looks Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 1:53:42 PM
Joel Embiid ‘Liked’ Knicks’ Recent Move Heavy.com
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 1:25:46 PM
Sources: Jacob Toppin won’t play with Knicks in 2023 Summer League due to minor injury Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 1:18:39 PM
Knicks’ Summer League Roster Revealed; Who’s Going to Vegas? Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 1:00:00 PM
OG Anunoby might be a target for the Knicks Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 12:44:22 PM
Pacers Acquiring Forward Obi Toppin In Trade With Knicks WIBC – Indianapolis News & Politics
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 11:22:12 AM
Where Do Knicks Stand on James Harden, Damian Lillard Trade? Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 10:30:32 AM
Knicks not ‘aggressively pursuing’ 2 star players Empire Sports Media
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 10:24:00 AM
How Donte DiVincenzo fit with the New York Knicks? Sportskeeda
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 10:04:45 AM
No, the Knicks still can’t afford to trade Immanuel Quickley Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 9:48:55 AM
Donte DiVincenzo: Grading Knicks’ 4-year, $50 million contract in 2023 NBA free agency ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 8:45:00 AM
New York Knicks Sign Jaylen Martin to Two-Way Contract NBA.com
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 8:32:53 AM
“Let’s See That Again, 100 Times!”: Shaquille O’Neal Swoons Over … The Sportsrush
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 8:09:07 AM
Mets Start July With a Series Win, Boone Keeps Getting Ejected, and … The Ringer
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 8:05:00 AM
The Knicks’ bet on Donte DiVincenzo will be judged by who they … New York Post
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 8:00:15 AM
3 Former Knicks players that secured new contracts in free agency Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Monday, July 3, 2023 7:46:02 AM
Pod Strickland: Episode 311 The Strickland
107 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.07.04)”
Okay, so for a change of pace, I’m going to agree with E on something:
I think we should keep RJ Barrett.
I get that most folks have soured on him given his stats for the last 4 years. I’m not going to sugar-coat or dismiss them per se. The fact that Thibs has rarely held RJ accountable for poor play on either end (and often both) compared to, say, Obi Toppin has been maddening.
But there’s something about this just turned 23 year old that convinces me that the best is yet to come. His playoff performance was nice and all, still not all-star level stuff, but there’s no question that he stepped up and looked like an all-star for significant stretches under enormous pressure.
So it comes down to: I believe in RJ because I believe that the guys around him, most notably Brunson and JHart, can unlock him and “bully” him into playing like a winner…especially JHart, because while he can take minutes away from RJ, he’s also all about winning and making winning plays. He will lead RJ by example and by mentoring. Same with Brunson, and to a lesser degree, fellow ‘Nova alum DDV.
And the best version of RJ will be a bargain on his current contract. Selling low on him right now seems like a mistake…possibly an enormous blunder.
I’m good with giving him that chance, especially since he hasn’t played a single NBA minute beyond age 22 yet.
Have at it, folks!
I don’t know, I don’t think RJ’s flaws are fixable. He is not athletic enough, if he tries to run the fastbreak, he seems to be out of control. When going inside, he does not have the ability to go above the rim and is blocked too often. He does not have the court vision to understand when to penetrate, or to bail out when he is facing multiple defenders. I guess he could improve his shooting and be a completely different player than he is now. At least, he could improve his FT shooting because he does draw fouls, but that does not make him the answer we need.
He played “well” in the playoffs, but I always felt that he got lucky with shooting and with the refs bailing him out. I think his ceiling is quite low, and we would be better expanding the role of Grimes, whose ceiling seems more capped out by sticking to his role than anything wrong in his game.
I supported RJ for about 3 1/2 out his 4 seasons.
First, double teams and lack of spacing both make it difficult for players to excel. We should acknowledge that RJ is operating in a difficult environment with the poor spacing.
However, at a certain point a smart player is going to adjust, react quicker, and stop making the same mistakes. He may even turn something like a double team into an advantage by finding the open man.
There are only so many times I can watch RJ drive into the paint get met by a wall of players, throw up a trash shot or get blocked before I start wondering about his basketball IQ or suspecting he’s more worried about his own scoring stats than the team.
When you also have Randle not dealing with the double teams and the lack of spacing very well and neither shooting well from outside you have a team construction and perhaps team IQ problem.
That’s why I started souring and saying one of them has to go.
It seems like Randle’s spot is more secure than RJ’s. It’s also seems obvious RJ is the weakest link in the starting lineup at his stage of his development.
Trading RJ is a pretty big risk. IMO he’s going to get better. But if we have to tweak this team construction to provide better spacing, that means one of either Mitch, Randle, or RJ has to be replaced.
You can upgrade Grimes, but he’s clearly not the problem with spacing. He’s a huge plus to spacing. He shoots well and gets his shot off so quickly you can’t give him any space.
Something has to give unless you think RJ or Randle is suddenly going to become a very good shooter or Mitch is going to expand his game outside.
happy 4th folks…
this gets to a problem that people are having… there is a time crunch and most do not want to admit or just do not realize it’s a problem…
it might not be a BIG problem… and maybe grimes should be playing 20 mpg.. i tend to agree… but if divicenzo is simply replacing grimes in the lineup then this signing is really a big waste of resources…. that’s not really a huge upgrade if at all…
that’s not to mention the fact that everyone else also gets squeezed… and yes that also includes RJ… it includes Hart.. it includes IQ… i dunno how realistic it is to expect brunson to also lose minutes but to make any of this make sense he probably will and that’s not good!
that’s a lot to accommodate… and yes people get hurt and miss games… but that’s not really a selling point to hope for an injury to fix a problem you created… and it’s also not really a selling point to expect a trade especially when that is likely going to include the most disgruntled and lowest valued guy in the group whoever that might turn out to be….
but we’ll see.. but i expect to see a lot of disgruntled fans aiming their sights at thibs…. and it’s not really his fault (ok maybe it will be)….
“I don’t know, I don’t think RJ’s flaws are fixable”
I think he has two glaring flaws: inconsistency and decision-making. They certainly may not be fixable, as these are the flaws that put a ceiling on many prospects.
“He is not athletic enough”
He’s not a high-flyer or end-to-end burner, but he’s athletic in other ways, especially in strength and footwork.
“if he tries to run the fastbreak, he seems to be out of control. When going inside, he does not have the ability to go above the rim and is blocked too often. He does not have the court vision to understand when to penetrate, or to bail out when he is facing multiple defenders.”
These are all in the realm of decision-making. I think he has decent enough handle and court vision when he keeps his head up. My problem with him is that he often becomes predictable because he puts his head down and just attacks, and that predictability allows defenses to gang up on him and shot-blockers to meet him at the rim. I’m not convinced that this is a congenital flaw that can’t be fixed. He makes nice reads when he keeps his head up.
“I guess he could improve his shooting and be a completely different player than he is now. At least, he could improve his FT shooting because he does draw fouls, but that does not make him the answer we need.”
Drawing fouls is important because even at a 75% FT%, that’s a TS% boost. Getting into the 80’s would be even better, but if he continues to put his head down and hunt fouls to a fault, it won’t make much difference. He is at his best when he attacks weaker players with his head up so that he can see strong-side and weak-side help coming. Again, this is about decision-making and keeping his head up.
“He played “well” in the playoffs, but I always felt that he got lucky with shooting and with the refs bailing him out.”
Well, describing his shooting as “lucky” pretty much confirms that you think he has reached his ceiling as a shooter…which is fair. I happen to disagree, but that’s pretty much the rub. We agree that it’s his shooting that will determine his ceiling. I think he will likely improve, you don’t.
“I think his ceiling is quite low, and we would be better expanding the role of Grimes, whose ceiling seems more capped out by sticking to his role than anything wrong in his game.”
Grimes has significant issues with footwork and finishing in the paint. He’s also not super-athletic, has a shortish wingspan, and is more of a 2, while I believe RJ’s best position is at the 3. In any case, I don’t think they get in each other’s way, so if it’s just a matter of shifting some usage, that can be accomplished by coaching enforcement. But there are clearly things RJ can do that Grimes can’t, and vice versa.
We have a 9-man rotation of:
Brunson/Quick + Grimes/Donte + RJ/Hart + Randle + Mitch/Hartenstein
Last season we had a 9-man rotation too, how come this season this is a big problem? I don’t get it. Hart will play SF/PF, Donte will play SG/SF and Quick PG/SG. Exactly as last season, except we had Obi only playing PF.
And one more thing, if we have bad luck and a player goes out with an injury for a long time, what would people say if we had less options? That Leon is a moron and didn’t plan the season well, probably. But if we have options he’s also a moron because we have good players in excess. I give up.
cyber… you just have to work out the minutes and the rotation… the people who are losing minutes are very equal to donte….
the only injury it protects against are hart… rj… grimes… if iq goes down… who’s playing pg? do you think donte is? what if randle goes down? is hart playing pf full time? this depth is only impacting like 3-4 players… and we were already ‘deep’ there…
it’s not as simple a thing as donte replacing obi straight up… and that’s the part you’re not understanding… just do a minutes breakdown yourself either on a full season or per game basis… and you’ll see what i’m seeing.. maybe you’ll still disagree but at least you’ll realize it’s not as simple as donte replacing obi straight up or that this is the same problem… they play different positions and people are going to lose minutes …
that’s 100% going to happen…
Strat, for RJ’s first 3 years, he was mostly playing in an offense without a true PG. His first year was the Fizdale debacle….the team started out 7-24 with Elfrid, Frank, and DSJ running the show. In his second, he played much better towards the end when a rejuvenated DRose was running the point. He didn’t shoot well in the playoffs vs. ATL but did post a 3.2 BPM…he was hardly the reason we lost. In year 3, Alec Burks and Kemba were our PG combo.
More importantly, his main role model on the court during these 3 years was “point forward” Julius Randle.
Last year was certainly very disappointing given the sizable extension he was given. It was especially concerning on the defensive end. I have no explanation as to what happened there. And combined with his regression from 3, it was an ugly year overall.
But I also saw some signs of progress on offense. His 2pt% crept up, as did his % of assisted FGs from both levels.
I don’t think his defense will continue to be as bad as it was last year. I also expect the 3pt shooting and his overall decision-making to improve, like it did during a solid playoff run. At the very least, before moving him at his lowest value, I want to see how he does on a team where the leadership is shifting away from Randle and towards Brunson and JHart.
I wouldn’t trade RJ just to be rid of the contract because we’re going to be over the cap for the foreseeable future regardless, but IMO all of the really enticing upside scenarios are out the door and we’re basically hoping for Wiggins at this point.
Like iserp said, there are some things that just aren’t going to change. Maybe he can get a bit better at hitting spot up 3s, get the finishing numbers up to league average, get a little more consistent on defense, etc. There’s still some low-ish hanging fruit. But the big picture seems baked in.
If we make a big trade and the other team involved values him I see no reason we should actively hold onto him, as doing so necessarily means sending out other, better players instead.
That’s the question at the end of the day–who do you want to trade instead of RJ?
Deuce is, of course. That’s what we did last season. If Randle goes down it’s a problem, i agree. But he never goes down, so for now i’m not worried. If we stay as we are and he goes down, we can play Hart there, and some Sims or Hartenstein, while we try to get a free agent or make a minor trade to address the issue. But i agree with you on this, we should have a valid option to play PF behind Randle. I just disagree with the minutes problem, unless you’re already counting that we’ll get a backup PF and he’ll get all non-Randle PF minutes. If that’s what you’re doing, then i might agree with you, but i think a 10-man rotation isn’t a bad thing, Thibs just has to play the Brunson-RJ-Randle trio less minutes per game.
I’ve been assuming we’re in the market for a bonafide backup PF, but I wonder if they think Roby can do the job.
His career numbers are honestly just as good as most of the guys’ left out there and maaaaaaaybe there’s a little upside left? The problem is the small amount of data we have indicates he’s not a very reliable shooter and that’s really all we’re asking of our non-Randle PF.
I can’t believe Yuta went for the minimum. I assume we at least inquired but he wanted to ring chase for a year and then enter what might be a more favorable market.
Z–Man
I know all the factors that contributed to RJ’s struggles. I agree with you. That’s why I defended him and even Randle at times from the more extreme criticism when they were playing poorly in the non playoff year.
But to me, even if I see upside from RJ, the team is constructed poorly. I don’t see a solution other than trading either RJ, Randle, or Mitch.
That’s why I’ve been hot for OG, have talked about finding a stretch PF, and talked about something like trying to get Turner to replace Mitch.
Our individual players are fine and I’m patient, but I don’t think the fit is right to maximize them. We have to replace one non shooter with a high level shooter to open things up or at least have a C that is a threat outside the paint.
happy tuesday everyone 🙂
first thought of the day, for the thread at least, everytime I come here now I think of KYN in greece, cyber in portugal (close enough) and max in italy and think to myself how much I would like to find a quite spot in the mediterranean, where not a lot of english is spoke, and I could just disappear for a while and stare at the water…
I’ll be honest, the no trees on malta thing kind of threw me for a loop, I wasn’t expecting that, like easter island, makes sense, people need wood…so, gonna take another look around the area for somewhere to relax for a couple of weeks…
oh, and to be sure, honestly, I’m trying to think of knick stuff to talk about too…
for some reason, I get frustrated quickly repeating myself, I’m trying to think of stuff ain’t already said…
I hope deuce has a good season…
oh yeah, we have the world championships (gotta check when), and summer league…that’ll happen soon…
I am less convinced about players improving their decision-making, as much as they cut what is not working. Rookies will try everything, make lots of mistakes/turnovers/etc. and then cut what has not worked for them. In RJ’s case, what is not working (finishing) is ingrained in what works for him (penetrating). He has to completely shift the way he tries to finish, be more patient, and more resourceful. It is not impossible, but I have not seen him attempt to do it, he sticks to what he has been doing since his rookie year.
“That’s the question at the end of the day–who do you want to trade instead of RJ?”
This may be an unpopular opinion, but now that we have Donte, it makes more sense to trade either IQ or Grimes before trading RJ.
I don’t want to trade any of them unless it’s for a star, but it comes down to market value and redundancy. Which player would count for more in a star trade? That should be the one to go. Meaning that I don’t have super-strong feelings about keeping any of them.
I would also be okay with trading one of Mitch or iHart, depending on the return. But it sounds like that’s not going to happen.
I am absolutely out on trading IQ instead of RJ, barring a massive valuation differential by the other team. He’s not all that far from borderline all-star territory and has done nothing but get better since entering the NBA, contra RJ. He’s not the most physically gifted player in the world so it’s possible he’s approaching his ceiling already, but whatever his ceiling is he seems destined to reach it.
I’d be wary of trading Grimes before seeing another season from him. I’m hesitant to say this because it might awaken a certain someone, but between his RSCI pedigree and some flashes here and there I think there might be a little more upside to squeeze from him too.
Basically we know without a shadow of a doubt that both IQ and Grimes can contribute to winning on a good team. There’s a lot that’s still TBD about what their role is in that scenario, but they’d play for 30 teams.
RJ, on the other hand…
Strat, you are logical about RJ (but I hope he’s actually better than you think) but then you say:
The team is mostly guards and few bigs. How is it going to help to trade Randle or Mitch?
Note that I can see making a case to trade RJ, but I still have a lot of hope for him.
If I had read this in a novel, I’d roll my eyes from how heavy-handed it would be. Too good.
Aren’t the Knicks basically done for the summer, unless a blockbuster deal materializes?
I think they’re waiting to see what shakes loose, for instance, if a star trade demand lingers, and they can get him for better value. It seems unlikely, but it can happen if a team gets desperate to rid themselves of a problem before the season starts.
He has his flaws, but I’m definitely into keeping IQ at this point. Despite being a good two-way player, he helps solve a lot of lineup issues: he can function as a backup point or a starting 2 (or a backup 2), giving Thibs a lot more flexibility than most players.
I do think Grimes will be the one who is eventually moved because teams won’t want RJ, and we won’t want to move IQ. If it’s for the right star, c’est la vie.
GK, it seems like it. But they have to finish off the back end of the roster. They have four possible two way guys: Jacob Toppin, Jaylen Martin, Duane Washington Junior and Trevor Keels. They can only have three two way guys. If I’m counting properly they have space on the regular roster for one of the four. Maybe they are waiting to see how they play in summer league to sort that out
RJ made a strong impression on me, and I think on GMs around the league, in the playoffs. I doubt that his value is as distressed as those of us who watch him every game thinks it is. And unlike IQ or Grimes, he’s locked up long term.
i mean if you don’t acknowledge that grimes.. rj.. hart.. and iq are losing minutes.. then yea that’s a problem… if you don’t think that’s a big problem… ok it could either way… but it does have potential to be a big problem… just like having 5 pf’s wound up being a problem….
RJ’s a conundrum for me. I like him warts and all..but I’m not sure the team has EVER used him properly and it makes him harder to evaluate. Like- I hate the fact that we are pigeonholed into playing him at SF. He’s got decent length, and he’s strong as a fuckin ox(so are Brunson, Hart, Mitch, and Randle btw and I love the physicality of the team)- but he’s a hair shorter than the 6’6″ he’s listed without shoes. I’m almost ready to say “use Grimes in a package for a 3&D wing 6’7″ or taller” just to see how the dynamic changes with RJ in the backcourt. But then I think of how important Grimes is to our perimeter defense and promptly say, “FUCK!”
Despite his non-premier athleticism, I think he’d be a better defensive SG than SF, as long as he has someone bigger on the wing playing next to him. Imagine Ujiri blowing it up and Rose snatching Anunoby for a package centered around Grimes and Fournier or something to that effect? Would that ease the loss of Grimes? Who knows. But I’d like to see the team do something to help him expand his game because playing him in the frontcourt next to Randle is not the move
@kfninj I think you are right. One of those guys will get the last roster spot and the others will get the two-way contracts.
At 100% health, something that teams often go entire seasons without experiencing, someone in the IQ/RJ/Donte/Grimes/Hart group is going to play 20 minutes on some nights.
I continue to struggle to see the “problem.”
every… every night….
and it’s not someone… it’s multiple….
and that’s why you’re probably not seeing it…
The problem I see is penciling in 6’4″ 215 lbs as a power forward is not going to work. Maybe RJ can do it, but I don’t think that makes the team better. I really think the position less basketball thing is over blown. Just look at the real title contenders. Size matters.
Why do you want to have the roster closed so soon? It’s only July 4th and we have all the summer to close it. There’ll be buyouts, waived players and so on. We are waiting to see if any of those opportunities is a good one. Also there’s no guarantee DaQuan will keep his spot, or Roby for that matter. And there’s no guarantee that from the 4 candidates, 3 of them will be on a 2-way contract. Maybe they will, maybe we’ll bring someone new we noticed at summer league or something. I’d bet good money none of the 4 will make the 15-man roster, because i think we’ll still going to address the backup PF spot and Leon likes to have one roster spot open. We have a lot of time to finish the roster.
Perhaps in theory you could be right, dj. Thing is, guys do get dinged up, and guys go through hot and cold stretches of play. IQ starts the season cold again? DDV can mitigate that. Grimes get hurts again? DDV mitigates. RJ gets tunnel vision on his drives after he’s blocked for the fourth time in a game and falls asleep on D? DDV mitigate by having another guard that Thibs would feel comfortable in benching RJ for.
Somewhat similar to if the Yankees had six good starting pitchers. We know only five can start – we also know Yankee guys spend a lot of time on the IL. So you’d feel pretty good about having that sixth starter on the roster.
RJ shot a woeful .310 from 3PT this year and was once again a below average free throw shooter. He is a poor shooter and always has been. You’re kind of hoping for a poor man’s Demar Derozan at this point, or a Wiggins/Barnes kind of player.
He’s also a poor defender, fares very badly in most defensive metrics and is not great by the eye test either. Horrible (and declining) stocks numbers.
I’m squinting as hard as I can here, and I’m really just not seeing it.
Bleacher Report made a top10 of the still available free agents and Darius Bazley made the list at 7th. Wouldn’t he be a good option for our vacant backup PF spot? Anyone knows more about his game that want to share it? If yes, much appreciated.
Bazley is 23, by the way.
Geo, all the people call us mediterranean but we’re technically out of the mediterranean area (ends in Spain). But i know what you mean and the south coast of Portugal (Algarve) is almost like the mediterranean, and there’s some spots there where you can chill indeed, mixed with others where you can’t. LOL What i don’t know is if there’s places in the Algarve where you wouldn’t hear english being spoken. 😛
Not sure if anyone else brought this up, but I just listened to the KFS podcast re: the DDV signing. Jeremy, who is really good with parsing the cap and the impact of moves, suggested that it is meaningful as to why Donte took slightly less than the full MLE. He said that it matches up within $85K to the number that would accommodate a RJ and Evian for PG13 trade. He also said that under no circumstances should the Knicks trade IQ this year, as his salary situation is critical to a second star trade, say for Embiid. I was on the elliptical while listening and wasn’t 100% tuned it, but it was an interesting take. In any case, it suggested that RJ rather than IQ should be the one going out, and not based as much on play as financials.
Both Macri and Jeremy raved about the DDV trade and think it made our team significantly better. That’s where I’m at as well.
Bazley would be fine by me on a minimum deal. Or Watford. Or Roby. Or any warm body that is 6’8″ or over.
so wait assuming everyone stays healthy is a theory? but in practice people will miss enough games for this to make sense is that right?
how many games does someone have to miss in order for the minutes distribution to make sense? yea that’s a serious question…. and i’m curious what you come up with since you thought this through…
i mean we just had a recent example of this and no.. we did not have this reaction of … well maybe bobby portis gets injured and this will all make sense in the end…
but hey i’m the mad scientist with the crazy theory that these guys probably play 70+ games together… we’ve gone a bridge too far here ….
so how much were they paying their 6th starter?
But why would the Clippers trade Paul George, when all the reports are that the Clippers want to add Harden to play with him and Kawhi?
I mean, I would happily take a RJ + Fournier plus some picks trade for PG, but it just doesn’t seem the Clippers want to trade him at all.
Bruno, that’s true, it was just theorizing on Jeremy’s part. He is trying to figure out why the number for DDV was not the full MLE, and that was one possibility that came up.
That said, fwiw it has been rumored that the Clips like RJ.
PG: Brunson 34, Quickley 14
SG: Grimes 22, DDV 12, Quickley 14
SF: RJ 30, Hart 10, DDV 8
PF: Randle 32, Hart 16
C:Mitch 28, iHart 20
With the important caveat that there still might be more changes, this truly seems totally fine to me. There’s a lot of flexibility–you can move things around based on matchups and/or performance in a given night.
No, I don’t think it’s a problem that DDV’s minutes allocation might be 20 on a standard night when the roster is at 100% health. On a lot of nights he’ll play more than that. He makes approximately 8% of the salary cap.
Katz said that the remaining MLE money “leaves just enough room for the Knicks to sign an undrafted rookie to a multi-year deal with the rest of the midlevel”, meaning we can sign them to a super friendly and cheap 4 year contract, like we did with Mitch.
@cyber It’s not that I want the off-season to be over. They had the mle to spend and they spent it. End of the roster moves won’t make much of a difference. Unless they make a significant trade, which doesn’t seem like it, this is the team until at least mid-december.
Is it wise to put together a team with a guy that played 235 games in 4 seasons, another that missed a full season and even in the last 4 “healthy” seasons (discounting the missed season) only played 221 games, and last but not least, one that played only 189 games?
great we have another reference…. much more productive….
so you realize that you have grimes and donte at ~20mpg.. which directly contradicts the ‘someone’ for ‘some nights’ premise from before right? like we can just erase that statement as purely false now? agreed?
we also have our most productive players including brunson (-1) and randle (-3) and hart (-4) who along with the grimes (-8) who’s also losing minutes in this configuration… do you see where the whole donte is a major upgrade doesn’t ring true if this happens? or is that still a totally crazy premise?
you can think this is ok… i think this is fine until grimes or someone starts bitching about minutes possibly.. but who knows maybe everyone can eat if someone goes down for the year… which is a morbid thing to count on…. but that’s fine… i just dont think that moves the needle.. you do.. that’s great…
but there are certain things that are being said to justify this that just aren’t true… and as long as we recognize that then we can disagree in a productive way….
and the big thing this donte signing adds on is trading RJ for OG or RJ for PG directly… i mean you can still do it.. but this minutes crunch starts being a bigger minutes crunch once you decide that the RJ minutes need to increase and that starts eating into other people’s minutes even more..
@gkhenman: We still have the BiAnnual Exception available. It’s a 2/9.2M and some good players already signed for this amount, so i think we’re saving it for the backup PF, when there’s someone that we like available.
No, it literally does not because I allocated 22 to Grimes. Small difference, sure, but don’t say I said something “purely false” if it’s actually “literally true.”
I don’t know if I ever used the term “major upgrade” and it’s very, very easy to slightly move things around to get Brunson and Randle more minutes on nights when we need them.
Donte gives us more flexibility to give disproportionate minutes to the player(s) who are playing well on a given night, or who are better suited for an individual matchup. I am particularly intrigued by the added ability to bench RJ when he’s having a stinker–we probably cross the 50 win threshold last season if he has a handful of extra ~17 minute nights.
You can characterize the value of that however you want, but it’s easily worth 8% of the salary cap IMO.
I’m not “counting” on anything, but players missing time in an NBA season is right there with death and taxes. I hope all of our rotation players play 82 games, I also know that’s not going to happen.
Would you not have wanted to have Donte during the Heat series?
I was just talking to Jeremy Cohen about this funnily enough and he doesn’t think we have room under the luxury tax to use the BAE, assuming they don’t renounce the cap holds for Keels and Washington.
I don’t see much in either of those guys and would happily renounce them if a genuinely intriguing BAE opportunity presented itself, but I bet we only use a minimum slot if we make an addition at all.
There’s little stuff we all forget about, like the fact that an allegedly real person named DaQuan Jeffries is currently on the roster.
I apologize dj… My wife and 5-month old are on our way to his nina’s place to go swimming. This weekend was the lil guy’s first exposure to pool water. My dad theorized that, as an aquarius, my son would take to water pretty quickly. We’re finding out happily that he’s right.
I say all of this to say that i won’t have the time to dive into how many games the aforementioned guys would have to miss for DDV to not pinch minutes. What i will circle back to is him being another quality guard to use as a buffer against one of the others having a bad game or stretch of games. And we absolutely could’ve used him against the Heat.
The NBA is more of a guard league now. To wit: As brilliant as Jokic was, I’ll say it was Jamal Murray’s play that put Denver over the top.
Having too many quality bench guards is a good problem to have imo. That’s why i don’t think this is similar to the Taj/Porter/too many PFs situation of ‘19-20.
If RJ can back to his previous defensive-level and quickness, my opinion of him will go up significantly. He improved at scoring inside, which is his most important skillset.
Because he’s not fast enough to blow by people, he has more difficulty scoring than the Ja Morant’s of the world. But that also means he needs to build strength and develop his skillset in a way that will take longer to develop.
Finishing through contact takes more adjustment than other skills and so I’m back in a bit on his offensive upside as long as he doesn’t stay a complete zero on defense.
DD doesn’t need to be a great PG, he just needs to be better than Deuce. Basically, he needs to get the ball across halfcourt. Between Hart, RJ, and Donte somebody should be capable of doing this without resorting to Deuce.
The Bi-annual Exception for $4.5M remains
They can use somewhere between $4.2M-$4.4M without exceeding the tax depending on who gets cut.
This may also explain DD taking less than the MLE to nearly max out the BAE while staying below the cap.
There’s some young-ish, mostly crappy, PFs we could grab who can’t demand playing time.
May also be saved for the buyout market at the trade deadline.
Maybe, but the minimum salary leftover is important in its own right for opening up more of the BAE I mentioned.
Minimum salaries also get prorated. If we wait long enough, the extra MLE room could allows us to sign Keels, Martin, or Toppin to a longer deal on the big league club. Otherwise, we could cycle players through 10 days for a pay boost again.
Apologies djphan, I got a little too into it with you the last couple days
I’m sure we’ll go at it again but I’ll pullback for now and refrain from over arguing
If we use the BAE we need to cut someone anyways.
Half the $4M in holds will disappear when one of them goes to a 2-way.
Another $2M will disappear if we cut DaQuan or Roby before October 10.
Or we could rescind the QO for Keels or DW (I think we can do that? I’m not going to check)
Happy 4th all
@DJ
I’m not sure if it’s on purpose but your rhetorical moves are super annoying.
You get that 20 mpg is an average, right? Some nights your shot is wet and you get more burn. Some nights you’re clanking iron and you ride the pine. Some nights the matchup just has your number and we throw a different look at them. It’s not that complicated.
According to Woj, The Orlando Magic are waiving Bol Bol.
Poindexter, will politely disagree with you on RJ at the two. Admittedly he could bully many of them into the paint (although with his head down he won’t see the tall guys coming to help), but many of them would then just blow by his turnstile defense. Not a good look at all.
Here’s my problem.
IMO, every minute that DDV takes away from Quickley at SG is a negative and makes us a little worse.
Every minute that DDV takes from Grimes could turn out to be a negative given I expect Grimes to take another step forward this year with a healthy summer, camp and start.
Show me a lineup with Quickley getting 30-36 minutes that makes adding DDV make a lot of sense.
Show me a lineup with Quickley and Grimes both getting 30-36 minutes that makes adding DDV make a lot of sense.
The only thing that clearly makes us better is giving DDV some of RJ’s minutes. But are they going to do that?
There will be some injuries where DDV will come in handy, but we handled things like that fairly easily last year by upping the minutes for a couple of the other similar players.
It’s hard for me to see playing Hart at PF to make room as a positive. It’s something you can get away with if you don’t have a legitimate backup PF or want to play smallball here or there. But it’s not a huge positive.
Again, don’t get me wrong, having him is better that not having him. But he’s not going to make us measurably better and could make us a bit worse if we play Quickley less than he should be (not to mention if Grimes takes a jump up).
The problem is RJ.
We don’t want to reduce potential minutes for Quickley, Grimes or Hart. The more they play approaching 36 minutes the better. Hart and Quickley are better than DDV and Grimes is on that path.
Yeah BJ, I can’t fathom why anyone would be the least bit concerned about minutes allocations at this point.
If the plan seriously is for Hart to be the backup power forward, that’s likely not a good plan (I don’t know if that is the actual plan yet, of course).
He seemed to play well for them for the start of last season, I would not mind to take a flier on him.
I like Bol Bol, but if he’s going for an NBA roster spot, the Knicks probably don’t need a fourth-string center.
Perhaps getting Harden while keeping George and Kawhi does not leave them a balanced roster. Since Kawhi and George are somewhat duplicative, we could be the landing spot for George and then send RJ, Fournier and picks to 76ers.
Although I guess the 76ers could as well want PG13 for themselves.
I agree with you on that.
I was trying to address the attempts to show there isn’t a minutes issue.
The idea is to play your best players the most minutes at their appropriate positions not to find workarounds to make the extra player fit by reducing the minutes of someone that should play more or playing someone out of position.
We are all probably making more of this than we should, but it’s not optimal team construction and we are bored. 🙂
Wasn’t he playing mostly as PF, and sometimes as SF?
Agreed, but last year he did play a lot of PF (82%).
Anyway, I’m surprised that a 7’2″ player was blocked 19 times… 🙂
Would love to pick up Bol Bol as our new backup PF. He’d actually be a nice fit for us. I can’t tell if he’s actually good, but he’s worth taking a flier on. He doesn’t play center in the NBA—not with that body at least. Most of his minutes have been at PF.
“Yeah, if the plan seriously is for Hart to be the backup power forward, that’s likely not a good plan.”
I am anticipating that in the absence of another move involving rotation players, there will be one or two disposable taller wing/PFs filling out the roster. And if something drastic happens, like Julius going down for an extended period, maybe a trade for a better player involving picks can happen.
That’s part of the reason why ditching Fournier right now simply for cap relief would be a questionable move. His expiring salary is going to be a valuable commodity up until the trade deadline. There will definitely be teams looking to offload non-expiring salary in the form of bigger wings between now and then, especially if we want to include some draft capital like the two seconds we received for Obi.
This team is in the best situation it has been in since the Ewing era. We have 9 really good to excellent rotation players, including being two deep at every position except PF, which is the position played by our relative Iron Man. We can always quibble about ways to make our situation is even better, but I just don’t understand the suggestion that there’s some kind of urgency because we have too many good players 6’6″ or under.
I’d be far more concerned for getting a low character player or a guy who’s not interested in playing D than getting DDV.
If you’re hopping to try to contend in this league you need to back up your big dog(s) with a roster full of 3, D, high character and young energy.
That’s what is happening
Although not a biblical name, Bol Bol is a really cool name. I approve the move.
Most modern PFs are basically wings, and most of those stand in the corner and shoot.
Moreover, we employ one of the only offensively dangerous PFs. The rest, like Giannis, are going to kill everybody anyways.
Other than that, Banchero, Siakam and Towns are the only PFs that come to mind off the top of my head
Those guys are going up against Randle (who is probably worse anyways).
On the plus side, you can switch 1-4 and have guys who know where to be and who can get there faster than a PF.
Then you have Mitch or iHart at the rim to clean everything else up, and who can play together defensively against any twin towers lineups… assuming Thibs bothers trying it
It’s definitely a little worrisome, but it might just be better.
@geo
Mediterranean for Medit(erran)ation!
😉
It would also be funny if we just spent the last 4 days debating the merits of having a bunch of 6’4 wings and then acquire a 7’2 SF/PF
Bol Bol is fine by me!
IQ and Grimes can’t play 48 minutes each. If they both take leaps such that they’re unambiguous 30+ minute players nightly, DDV will be on the outskirts a bit until we trade him to the Clippers or something.
In your nightmare scenario here, IQ and Grimes improve to a degree that makes DDV somewhat superfluous. It doesn’t keep me up at night.
I would be happy if we signed Bol Bol for watchability purposes but I’m iffy on the fit offensively and I have no idea how he’d play alongside our centers defensively.
Strat, I think you are underrating DiVincezo. He’s really good.
so you arrived at 22 minutes for Grimes and 20 minutes for Donte at your own volition… arbitrarily…. and you dont think that directly contradicts this…
because grimes has 2 more minutes? i mean this is YOUR projection… randle could easily play those 2 other minutes and put grimes at 20.. but the more important thing is that you think 2 minutes is the difference between you being right and wrong? we’re doing THAT?
it’s ok to admit that you did not consider this before you actually did the exercise.. every other person who did probably came to the same realization also… but won’t admit it… and again.. you did this! you drew this up! i have also came to around the same conclusion… but yea at least two people are getting screwed ON AVERAGE….
and that’s the most important part.. yea SOME nights… someone might not play 20 minutes.. and play more.. yea they get hot… they got a good matchup.. but ON AVERAGE… this is what we are going to see… and ON AVERAGE if you expected only one person to see only 20mpg… well that was wrong… now you know…. i’m sure others had those same wrong assumptions too….
and if you’re comfortable with that.. that’s great… you’re not gonna get convinced of anything that much was clear from the very beginning… i just don’t think anyone actually cared to see for themselves… now that you did… that sets expectations and we have a frame of reference and we can move forward on a common set of facts and expectations…
all good …. i’m sorry too… keep to the argument and we’ll be good…
LOL… i’m not making any moves… i’m asking others to post there’s…
and this is why….
woah woah woah…. this is crazy talk…. since when did this stop us from getting anyone around here? people get hurt and we need playoff options dontchaknow?
A little tidbit shared by Macri on his podcast:
We now have 3 of the top 23 from last year in total catch-and-shoot 3pt makes…Grimes was 15th (140, 40%, 2121 min) Donte was 19th (132, 42.4%, 1894 min) and Randle was 23rd (129, 34.5%, 2737 min). Of the players above DDV in this category, only Niang (1512) and MPJ (1798) played fewer minutes. Only Kispert (42.9%), MPJ (43.8%), Horford (44.8%) shot a better percentage.
Most of the players above Donte on the list will be getting paid substantially more than him next year. Many are not as skilled in other areas.
I concur with Macri that this is an outstanding pickup that definitely makes us better.
Jesus Christ djphan, I guess I need to clarify that the rough minutes distribution I laid out will not be the iron clad rule of minutes distribution for every single game.
It feels patronizing to explain this, but you are heavily implying you don’t understand it, so: Quentin Grimes can average 22 minutes, but play 20 on some nights. Therefore he might be the guy who plays 20 on some nights, even if he averages 22.
If Grimes or DDV are so good that being in the 20-22 minute band constitutes them being “screwed,” halle-god-damn-lujah! We’ll play the one that’s excelling and trade the other one at some point.
it’s ok to admit that you did not consider this before you actually did the exercise..
I’m shocked that Max Scherzer is 8-2, every time I’ve checked in he was getting shelled…
Jaylen Martin seems like a good choice for a 2-way contract….19yo, 6’6″, good length, 2-way guy, slasher, shoots 50% from the field…his coach raved about his work ethic. I guess he and Keels are the guys to watch in summer league.
“If Grimes or DDV are so good that being in the 20-22 minute band constitutes them being “screwed,” halle-god-damn-lujah! We’ll play the one that’s excelling and trade the other one at some point.”
I don’t get why this is so hard to understand.
you mean it might be.. an average? and that they might average 20 mpg?
if someone gets more than their average on any given night.. that means someone gets less… and then yes you will have multiple people not reach that exact 20 mpg on any given night…. it could just be different people…
if grimes plays more that doesn’t mean his average goes up unless you mean he’s averaging more than 22…. if he plays more on any given night that means someone else plays less… if randle decides he’s hot and needs 40mpg… there’s a 2-3 players definitely not reaching 20mpg just on that alone.. and that might happen quite often…
and yes being an average… on average you will have 2 people not reach that threshold as you so kindly demonstrated…. it might not be the same two people every night but on average it will be grimes and donte…
do we understand averages now? i hope?
Watching promising young guys being cut or traded by their teams without much hesitation and for only slight returns makes you realise how hard is to stay in this League and also that there is “more than stats” stuff in this business that we don’t have access to
In order to rate the moves of a FO fairly
djphan… has turned into Ted Nelson with ellipses.
I guess we are in the hunt for Grant Williams now… but Boston wants a 1st round pick in return.
If we trade a 1st for Grant and sign him for 40 over 4, I’m pretty sure djphan’s head will explode.
oh i just thought i turned into donnie walsh that actually watches basketball…. sorry…
why would it make my head explode?
my head has already exploded over these explanations…. not liking what the knicks do is a daily/yearly occurrence…. we.. and i get over it…
Thibs showed not having problem playing or benching anyone especially those who don’t play D.
Don’t get the problem with the guard/forward minutes.
Best players play and the rest do garbage time.
Having the opportunity to get a 26mpg guard of the best smallball team in the history of the game and avoiding it to not hurt grimes and iq feelings is ….. (Put whatever you want)
There’s been a fair share of dumb topics discussed ad nauseum on this site but this minutes allocation one takes the cake.
BBA preach
The more I think the JHart, DiVicenzo moves the more i believe this FO knows Exactly what is doing and sneakily but steadily builds a “one or two moves away-contender”.
It’s like they play chess but instead of rooks and queens they use shooting guards!!!
;-p
your right…I don’t think about it a lot, but every team has their fair share of draft “busts”…
seems like half the folks drafted each year are out of the league in about 5 years…
Geo, you made me look around, and it’s true. We suck with our draft picks, but so do most teams. Hard to do an apples-to-apples as some teams trade away all their picks and you don’t want to compare against terrible teams because high lottery; but for example, for the last ten years, the Bulls have only Nurkic, Harris, Portis, and Carter Jr as rotation guys; the Clippers have only Bullock, Bridges, Terance Mann I guess, and Quentin Grimes (!); the Hawks Shane Larkin (!), Shroeder, Oubre, John Collins, Devonte Graham, Huerter, and Okongwu (oh, and that Luka guy).
Skipping Luka/Trae, that’s actually not a terrible haul for the Hawks, but they also took Sharife Cooper, Jalen Johnson, Skylar Mays, Cam Reddish, Omari Spellman, Tyler Dorsey, Deandre Bembry, Isaiah Corinier, Edrien Payne, and so on, not counting guys picks like 50 and above (Alpha Kaba and Kay Felder anyone?).
Knicks are sort of comparable. Can’t really call Frank or Kevin rotation guys anymore. So that’s KP, RJ, Mitch, Obi, and IQ (if a draft/trade counts).
I would like to see Bol Bol on this team because I enjoy being entertained
Isn’t Bol Bol just a bigger, wackier version of Obi Wan?
Bol Bol’s minutes dwindled as the year went on because his effectiveness and productivity entered Frank Ntilikina levels. The Magic had nothing to play for except to develop young talent. They seem to have made up their minds.
If Bol Bol can play as SG he’s coming!!!
;-)))
Bol Bol might not be very good but come on, it’s the back of the roster, let’s do something more entertaining than the Ryan A guy whose name is too long to type
As a Nova squad member, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Arcidiacono come back.
Looking at draft picks I was reminded that we actually drafted Thanassis. And he’s available, and he’s a backup power forward.
Rick Brunson anyone?
Why is Grimes a Clippers pick, Raven? The Knicks selected him, so it’s a Knicks pick. Or else if the Knicks had the Giannis pick and traded it on draft day, would you count it as a big success for the… Knicks?
This made me remind of Ryan Anderson! 😀
Will carry this over to the morning thread, but here’s Fred Katz also suggesting that something feels not right about this being the roster the Knicks would take into the season: https://theathletic.com/4666789/2023/07/05/knicks-donte-divincenzo-signing/
Of particular note: