[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 7:06:47 AM
Zach LaVine reportedly not interested in being traded to New York Knicks Sportsnaut
[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 3:30:00 AM
Jaylen Martin Signing Two-Way Deal With Knicks hoopsrumors.com
[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 3:23:22 AM
New York Knicks Reportedly Sign Intriguing Player – Fastbreak on FanNation Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 3:10:00 AM
Knicks Free Agency and Trade Buzz: Zach LaVine’s camp reportedly against trade to NY Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 3:05:00 AM
Knicks To Sign Jacob Toppin To Two-Way Contract hoopsrumors.com
[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 2:01:49 AM
Knicks Eyeing PG-13, Hal’s Comments, and the Mets’ Pitching Problems The Ringer
[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 12:55:00 AM
LaVine’s Reps Don’t Want Him Traded To Knicks hoopsrumors.com
[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 12:48:00 AM
NBA rumors: Bulls’ Zach LaVine not keen on potential Knicks trade ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Friday, June 23, 2023 12:16:42 AM
Zach LaVine’s Camp Reportedly Wouldn’t Want a Trade to the Knicks bleachernation.com
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 11:16:34 PM
Bulls’ Zach LaVine would be against trade to Knicks: source New York Daily NewsKnicks Trade Rumors: Zach LaVine Not ‘Interested in Dealing With’ NY amid Bulls Buzz Bleacher ReportLaVine’s Reps Don’t Want Him Traded To Knicks hoopsrumors.com
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 11:01:00 PM
Fat Joe: unfortunate ‘Dick from Kansas’ soundbite steals show at NBA Draft Marca English
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 10:58:41 PM
Trail Blazers Use Knicks’ 1st Round Pick On Kris Murray Yardbarker
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 10:44:05 PM
Trail Blazers Use Knicks’ 1st Round Pick On Kris Murray Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 10:06:03 PM
Who did Mavericks select after tanking to keep Knicks from getting … Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 9:10:45 PM
New NBA trade intel revealed on Knicks, Miles McBride Yardbarker
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 7:50:26 PM
NBA rumors: Knicks trade brewing on the entirely wrong player FanSided
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 7:30:00 PM
2023 NBA Draft: New York Knicks Official Selections and Draft Grades Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 6:47:00 PM
Knicks player, coach Tom Thibodeau allegedly had heated altercation following playoff loss: report Fox News
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 5:57:16 PM
New NBA Intel Links Knicks To Intriguing Free Agent Guard Yardbarker
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 5:55:10 PM
Knicks: Long-shot Paul George trade New York must offer Clippers ClutchPointsKnicks Initiate Trade Talks With Clippers on Paul George, Quickly Have Change of Heart, per Report Sports IllustratedNBA Draft rumors: Scoot Henderson gaining traction at No. 2; Knicks, Clippers talked Paul George trade CBS Sports
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 5:50:09 PM
Knicks preparing to trade $18.8 million burden Empire Sports Media
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 5:41:39 PM
Knicks Initiate Trade Talks With Clippers on Paul George, Quickly Have Change of Heart, per Report Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 5:00:06 PM
Latest New York Knicks rumors leading up to start of 2023 NBA Draft Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 4:39:55 PM
Report: Update on Paul George to Knicks Trade Rumors Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 4:32:11 PM
Knicks Eyeing Paul George: Potential Trade with Clippers on the Horizon? Empire Sports Media
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 4:13:16 PM
Could the New York Knicks Still Come Calling the Chicago Bulls? bleachernation.com
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 3:52:27 PM
Knicks: Chris Paul Gushes Over Jalen Brunson Amid Offseason Rumors Heavy.com
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 3:15:00 PM
Rival teams expressing interest in Deuce McBride Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 3:10:08 PM
Blockbuster Trade The Bulls Can’t Refuse From Knicks & Warriors Sports Mockery
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 3:08:00 PM
Knicks Rumors: Fournier, George, Toppin, DiVincenzo, McBride hoopsrumors.com
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 2:50:14 PM
No Picks, No Problem: The Knicks’ All-Time Undrafted Team Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 2:45:00 PM
Knicks showing interest in Donte DiVincenzo and why they should sign him Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 2:43:31 PM
Knicks ‘hesitant’ to trade for Clippers star Paul George ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 2:30:00 PM
Jonathan Macri talks state of the Knicks heading into the NBA Draft New York Post
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 2:05:53 PM
Knicks express interest in trading for Clippers’ Paul George Los Angeles Times
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 1:30:00 PM
Which players should the Knicks pursue in trades? Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 1:24:30 PM
New York Knicks Reportedly Looking To Trade This Player? Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 1:02:34 PM
NBA rumors: Knicks eyeing Donte DiVincenzo in free agency ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 1:00:56 PM
NBA rumors: Evan Fournier seeking trade from Knicks ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 12:35:22 PM
PG-13th Avenue? Knicks, Clippers Had ‘Contact’ on Paul George … Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 12:27:22 PM
Trade? Knicks And Clippers Reportedly “Had Contact” – Fastbreak … Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 12:24:55 PM
The Knicks reportedly talked to the Clippers about trading for Paul George Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 12:20:30 PM
Why Knicks Could (and Should) Trade Into NBA Draft Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 12:17:55 PM
NBA Rumors: Knicks inquire about trade for eight-time All-Star, CAA … Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 12:07:00 PM
Knicks in talks with Clippers to trade for Paul George ahead of 2023 NBA Draft New York Post
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 12:01:27 PM
Knicks, Clippers in Contact About Potential Paul George Deal, per Report Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 11:58:42 AM
NBA rumors: Clippers won’t trade Paul George to Blazers, Knicks ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 11:33:00 AM
Knicks’ Obi Toppin had heated ‘verbal altercation’ with Tom Thibodeau Empire Sports Media
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 11:30:23 AM
New York Knicks player likely set up summer trade after ‘altercation’ with head coach during Sportsnaut
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 11:17:02 AM
Knicks get new free agent target with Bruce Brown Jr. hitting market AMNY
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 10:52:12 AM
Knicks’ Former Lottery Pick Traded to Division Rival Heavy.com
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 10:30:40 AM
Michael Jordan gave assurance to play for the Knicks: “If Chicago had not made a significant offer, New York was next” Basketball Network
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 10:23:24 AM
One sharp-shooter the Knicks should target in free agency Empire Sports Media
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 9:55:32 AM
Potential Obi Toppin replacements Knicks can target by trading into the draft Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 9:20:01 AM
Undrafted Free Agent Targets for the Knicks The Knicks Wall
[news.google.com] — Thursday, June 22, 2023 8:20:00 AM
Knicks’ place among Eastern Conference contenders isn’t set New York Post
100 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.06.23)”
Random thoughts after a night rightly dedicated to sleep instead of hoping that Leon Rose would do something.
– The way the Mavs used their shameful 10th pick was surprisingly smart and pissed me off a lot…
– I’m always been okay with the J-Hart trade, at the same time I hate the way this team values the draft. Two years in a row without a first rounder? Not even a second this year?
I’m with @BenR: It’s boring, takes away one of the best aspects of regular-season basketball (plus, it kills Summer League watchers like me 🙂 ) and shows an annoying indifference for one of the main tools to get cost controlled talent.
– Jaylen Martin looks like a diamond in the rough, many draft experts expect him to become an NBA player of some kind, now it’s time for our development team to show why their are paid (we know Miami would make him an All-Star in 3 years…).
– Interesting situation about the Toppin Brothers.
Will signing his younger brother be the ultimate spite to Obi before trading him? That would be very cold hearted.
Will they trade both brothers to the same team? That would be fun.
I’m skeptical about both being around when the season starts.
– My usual gift for Alan:
Former Knicks standout Luca Vildoza will sign a 2-years deal with greek team Panathinaikos Athens, where he’ll play with Kostas Antetokounmpo. It’s still not clear if he will start for the Knicks in the playoffs. 😉
Alan,
what I would do is so different from what the Knicks will do (and the vast majority of this blog would do) that it’s useless to wrote about it.
I don’t want to start flame wars on fever dreams… 😀
That said, I don’t like the “run it back” option, because it feels like we believe only our young players will improve, only our veterans will have the same kind of successfull year and injuries will never hit.
Anyway, I’m trying to judge only “real life” FO’s moves.
I’m not always able to do it, but I’m really trying.
Max, I say this with love, but you can go straight to Hell. 🙂
Meanwhile, reposting my comment from the end of the last thread:
—
Okay, so no draft picks, LaVine doesn’t want to come here because of the CAA factor, we’ve been scared off of PG13 due to the contract extension thing, Booker obviously isn’t moving, KAT is likely not moving, and Dame is going to Miami if he wants to leave Portland.
So what’s the move here? Re-sign Hart, sign someone like DiVincenzo with the mid-level, find Obi and/or Fournier new homes, and call it an offseason? I know that would please some people here, but it feels to me like we need to do something dramatic, rather than largely run it back?
Such a weird draft..before and after.
1. I like Anthony Black ALOT, but not for a Magic team that already has a guard they don’t quite know how to utilize in Suggs. I would have picked Grady D and fielded offers for the other pick to see if i can get a vet floor general as a backup and a later pick to get another shooter.
2. LOVED the Thompson Brothers goin back to back. That was awesome.
3. As much as this pains me- I kinda liked what the Mavs ended up doing.
4. As for our Knicks- why Jacob Toppin? I’m not sure he’s the type of 3&D big wing we need, plus the team is very likely to move big bro. I am intrigued by Jaylen Martin though. He does need to work on his shot
Just keep our guys and sign them to the best deals possible, I guess (plus add DiVincenzo).
Look, you never know: Randle could tear up his knee in game 1. Would you rather have Toppin ready to step in or a Jeff Green-like midlevel journeyman?
Idk, I guess Leon expects a lot of internal growth. Hopefully RJ and Randle can play nice with each other.
Signing Obi Toppin’s shitty brother is the most confusing totally inconsequential thing the Knicks have ever done.
Feels to me like the Paul George and Zach Lavine things are not dead.
We definitely kept our powder dry and did not commit any future assets to draft someone this year — meaning we are probably planning on using those future assets for a trade.
Re: the Bondy report about Klutch vs CAA and Lavine –> what do I know about agents and their rivalries, but that seems frankly ridiculous. It’s one thing if Lavine doesn’t want to play for Thibs again, but NY is a great market, coming to the Knicks would improve his marketability, and it’s a much better situation for him than Chicago is. This would be the tail wagging the dog to the extreme, and not in the player’s best interest. Why in the world would Zach Lavine (multi-time All-star and max contract guy) care about freaking Cam Reddish who has now been given up on by 2 organizations and posted a sweet -4.3 BPM and 0.025 WS/48 with Portland?
“I have it on the authority of Z-Man himself that the Knicks wouldn’t have even made the playoffs if we didn’t trade for Josh Hart!”
Nice to know that you still obsess over me in the wee hours, snuggums!
I don’t know how easy it was to get a pick this draft. I think every team is thinking of the new CBA and wants cost controlled talent. The few teams that did trade picks got other picks in return and likely pick traders found other partners. If all we could have gotten was a late second, signing Martin as an alternative doesn’t seem so bad. As for not having a first round pick, it really hurt that Dallas was so bad and we didn’t get their pick. I don’t think that was predictable when we traded for Hart.
@Frank
I can agree with you, but the issues between Rich Paul’s Klutch and CAA go way back in time.
Paul started his career in CAA under the tutelage of one Leon Rose and then, in 2012, left the company to found his own, taking with him his old friend LeBron James (then a CAA client).
It didn’t end well and CAA did live it like a betrayal, with a lot of bad blood spilled.
Reddish is just another point of contention, with Klutch believing Cam was “sabotaged” only because he isn’t a CAA client.
I’m not saying it’s rational but these people are humans, sadly feuds and hate can live forever…
Jacob doesn’t seem like a complete zero as a prospect but I mean that literally. He’s a 3&D type player who can’t shoot and still has flaws on D. There’s some logic to betting on the athlete and building his shot, but he’s 23. My impression is that he’s more of a legit player than Chris Smith or Thanasis, which isn’t saying much. I highly doubt he becomes anything.
I find Jaylen Martin legitimately intriguing if for no other reason than he’s only 19. It’s possible that OTE is garbage but why not take a swing with an UDFA.
I wouldn’t want Rich Paul as my agent if he limited my market because of a vendetta.
So now that the draft is over and some trades have taken place, what are the implications thus far for the Eastern Conference standings? Barring injury, Celts, Bucks and Cavs will be near the top again. Then it seems like there’s a mosh pit with the Knicks, Philly, Atlanta, Miami, and maybe Brooklyn, Toronto and Indiana jockeying for position in the rest of the top-10.
The Wiz will totally suck. Bulls seem to be on the decline. The Pistons, Magic, and Hornets are likely outside the play-in as they move along in their respective rebuilds.
So the question for me is: what can we do to improve our lot in the standings, given that it would take a pretty big move to crack the top 3 but maybe not to stay on top of the next 7?
I’m very comfortable being on Team Patience. I’d rather not run it back per se, and would like to see a significant improvement at one of the top 7 rotation spots if it could be done at a reasonable cost that doesn’t compromise the ability to make a huge opportunistic move when the time is right.
Seems like Brunson, Randle, and Hart aren’t going anywhere so no point in discussing them. iHart and Obi are outside the top 7 rotation spots so they are less consequential unless the players in front of them are moved.
So improvement would have to come at the remaining 5 spots in the top 7. I hope that we keep Grimes and IQ because they are already good and I expect them to improve further, but they are the most likely guys to be replaced. That leaves Mitch and RJ. I don’t think either guy is going anywhere but would probably prefer that they be the guys who are replaced for better options at their respective positions.
In any case, I think the odds are pretty high that at least one of IQ, Grimes, Mitch or RJ is not in the top 7 of our rotation when the season starts. That’s about all that seems to fit this FO’s MO.
From last thread… djphan had some thoughts in response that are worth looking at too
Vecenie has Martin 73:
Hollinger with Martin listed at 59:
Vecenie had Jacob at 93
Hollinger at 52
Here’s some film on Toppin:
https://youtu.be/Qov_RGcQYO8
Re: LaVine, I think it’s all about Thibs. Remember that it was Thibs who shipped Zach out of Minny (for what seemed like a good reason at the time, but I digress…) and that Thibs has a rep for grinding knee cartilage into dust.
1. I knew there were politics involved in where agents steered players, but I didn’t think it was this bad.
2. I’m thrilled LaVine doesn’t want NY. I don’t want him.
3. I’m happy Obi hasn’t been traded (at least yet). To me trading Obi makes zero sense unless we have a better idea for backup PF.
4. I don’t see the point behind DiVincenzo. He seems somewhat duplicative to me, but he can shoot. I just don’t see whose minutes he’s going to get.
5. If we don’t make a big trade (and I don’t see any that would make me happy and most would make me miserable), I think we should be looking for a backup or 3rd string PG.
6. I still want to try Quick at starting SG, Grimes at SF, and RJ on the bench. Adding a good backup PG makes that more possible. I’m not sure that’s possible politically and I’m willing to wait to see how RJ looks with another summer working on his game, but at some point we have to start the best players.
The Knicks, at 30-27, went 17-6 after putting Josh Hart in the lineup vs. the Jazz on February 11. During that time, Hart posted all-NBA-type numbers. I’ll leave it to others to figure out what their record would have been in that 23-game stretch had the Knicks passed on Hart and kept their pick.
I’m more optimistic about the Magic.
After an awful start (5-20) they had a winning record (29-28) over more than two third of the season and they have a lot of talented young guys. Teams rosters are still in great flux, but I think they’ll fight for the play-in.
I’m more than more optimistic about the Magic. Banchero and Wagner can play and there is other upside potential.
Jacob Toppin’s numbers would be unimpressive to me if he were a freshman. Alas he recently turned 23. He seems like a total non-prospect to me.
It’s cool that Hollinger likes the other guy though. I have no clue how to evaluate OTE guys. I guess between Montero and Martin we seem to like them.
To me, the Magic qualify as the best of the worst…meaning that they have upside but when it comes right down to it they just don’t have the experience yet to seriously compete against the more seasoned and cohesive teams in the conference. I don’t see anything better than a mid-high-30’s win team, which could definitely score a 9th or 10th seed but would require some major breakouts to do any better than that.
It’s funny how the “eye test” for me these days has become opening up b-ref and scrolling down to the advanced section.
Life was so much easier when that was the best you could do.
I am sure there is tracking data out there showing that Banchero generates a ton of gravity but I watched him a few times in the second half and I am not sure I am a believer in his long term high end impact. I don’t see a well rounded player making contributions in every facet. And I am not sure I see a lethal scorer. Seems kind of Brandon Miller-esque actually. We will see but I’d fade Banchero at this point, although all the caveats apply to a first year player. Anything can still happen.
To Brian’s post from last night at the end of the thread, I also don’t know what the hell the Knicks should do. I haven’t had any good ideas basically since Randle and Barrett got paid. Maybe Brock and Co can pull a rabbit out of a hat but it seems some true magic is required.
I definitely think Toppin is an Exhibi-10 if we don’t have his brother.
The brief scouting tape I posted earlier shows him with a lot more defensive potential than Obi. He doesn’t have the high, stiff hips. There’s probably some world in which Miami turns him into an actual player when he turns 26… but it’s asking a lot.
Here’s Hollinger on him:
Click thru if you have it:
https://theathletic.com/4623322/2023/06/20/nba-draft-top-prospects-2023-hollinger?source=user-shared-article
I really hope the Knicks keep Keels somehow. Nobody mentions him here, but he is still really young. He won’t be twenty for another two months. I don’t know if he is any good, but I want a chance to find out what he can be.
i dont think the guys the knicks nabbed are worth discussing… these are very much in the trevor keels of out of left field area and would take some sort of miracle for it to work out….
the only real learning from this is that they are hoping people are missing something from the overtime leagues… which isn’t the worst strategy in the world and it’s nice that they are thinking on that level.. but after seeing a half dozen or so games i’m not sure if there’s anything of value there…
the overtime leagues are in itself going through a lot of growing pains.. the thompson twins were a big win for them but they haven’t really gotten a lot of depth which is a problem…. and that’s a problem for Martin since he hasn’t distinguished himself from there…
(wrong thread repost)
jake fisher had written that the magic might trade suggs or anthony if they draft a guard. as rough and injury riddled as suggs’ first two years have been, i still think there’s quite a bit to like about him. wonder what his trade price would be.
Guys, stay cool, Jacob is only here because he has a biblical name we were missing. 😀
Way to go, Alan! 😉 Now please tell us what will the Knicks do during the offseason! 😀
Signing Jacob makes me think we are less likely to trade Obi. And like his brother, he can really get off the floor, if nothing else. It does sting a little to see Portland take Murray, the player I would have wanted, with our pick.
Lol, probably not but I’m gonna spend way too much time looking into them anyways
Is most of the trading done until free agency opens in July?
If so, it’s going to be boring around here for awhile if we don’t have any of the bad ideas coming out of the media to discuss.
I’m still terrified we are going to do a deal that’s going to make us better but lock us into that 2nd tier contender position by taking on a bad contract for a 2nd or 3rd tier star while giving up most of our upside. There are options to explore that will move us forward and keep the upside and flexibility. If they aren’t available or we get outbid by some crazy organization, so be it. Just don’t do the WRONG thing. No impatient or panic buying!
i don’t think the magic are going to jettison either suggs or anthony yet … they are both at a critical juncture in their careers where they could truly catapult into a different stratosphere…. and it would be rather strange to trade them at this point with that much volatility surrounding their value….
the guy that’s probably getting traded is fultz out of all them but i also think he’s worth hanging onto….. they just need more time for their guys to cook to see what they have….
I guess there’s some infinitesimal chance we trade Rose before his club option deadline tomorrow
Maybe we bring in a few Exhibit-10s for SL
Learn who of Keels and Duane Washington get cut from their 2-way
Real get you out of your seat exciting stuff like that
I mean it depends on what you think gives us a better shot at a title in the next couple years. Do we go for it next season or try to wait for a better option? I don’t think there’s necessarily a right or a wrong answer, but I think some or more wrong than others (like say trading Mitch and Obi + picks for PG would be a bad move in my opinion)
In more extremely boring post-draft news, Timme signs an Exhibit 10 with the Bucks.
‘Timme was among a group of accomplished college centers/forwards who didn’t get drafted on Thursday. Fellow All-Americans Oscar Tshiebwe (Kentucky) and Azuolas Tubelis (Arizona) went undrafted, as did national champion UConn big man Adama Sanogo and productive Florida center Colin Castleton.’
Jean Montero was really good in Europe last year we should definitely try to bring him back
I for one think that Carmelo was totally worth the trade for him and that we should totally have maxed him out + given him the NTC. And I think we would be a title contender if Frank Ntilikina were still on the team (just think if we had drafted Kenneth Faried!). And I think Wages of Wins is genius.
In all seriousness – in terms of running it back. We took Miami to 6 games even while 2 out of our top 4-5 players were injured and/or not playing (Julius with the ankle, IQ with his ankle).
It’s not totally ridiculous to run it back and believe that another year of development from Grimes, IQ, and RJ gets us to the ECF. And we still have all the assets that can be used to make a move if/when the right one presents itself.
Drafting teams I was impressed with:
Portland — they have a great future backcourt in Scoot/Sharpe and also picked up Murray and Rupert on the cheap. Now they just have to trade Dame for a haul and start over.
Golden State — Podz and Trayce were both great picks at those respective spots. Even if they don’t contribute much to this group of stars, they should be nice building blocks in the future.
That’s pretty much it. Most of the picks were theoretical in value (Charlotte easily could have drafted a bunch of busts again, for instance), and I don’t think we really missed out on much.
Meanwhile, short of Embiid/Giannis wanting out, I don’t see a lot of star options left for Leon.
It will be interesting to see what they do moving forward. It’s clear that RJ was the weak link last year, but he had a nice playoffs, so I’m guessing they’re unsure about how to proceed with him. I don’t think LaVine is the answer. Neither is an overpriced OG or an old and brittle PG.
If RJ doesn’t improve, I don’t hate Owen’s idea of starting IQ at the 2 and Grimes at the 3. It’s a totally undersized lineup but better to play your best players more and your worst players less.
There’s also this: https://www.eurohoops.net/en/fibawc/1478696/jean-montero-dominican-republic-fiba-world-cup-2023-real-betis/
But i think the problem with Montero remains the same, he has a buyout clause that is more expensive than what the Knicks are allowed to pay. So we have to sign him via one of the exceptions, to be able to give him enough money for him to pay the buyout, like we did with KB’s Hall of Famer Luca Vildoza. I just don’t feel like this is the way Leon wants to spend money from the exceptions, so i’m not optimistic about Montero joining the Knicks this summer, not counting SL of course.
Didn’t know Montero was showing out so hard in the ACB–do we have his rights? He should be in high demand after this season he’s put up.
The run-it-back (RIB henceforth) strategy seems to me like hoping for an inside straight, or hoping to get “heads” on like four coin flips in a row. It works if your young players make leaps and your star players (who both just had career years) don’t regress. Things rarely work out that way.
The last time we had a good season, we mostly did RIB while swapping out a couple of the nuts and bolts. It didn’t work, because we really didn’t increase the talent base of the team. Some guys regressed, ISM luck ran out, and the team was very mediocre.
If we’re really going to contend we’ll need to do something bold and try to increase the talent base. Failing that we’re going to need to get “heads” on lots of those coin flips if we want to get out of the mezzanine. Sometimes you flip heads a bunch of times in a row, but usually you don’t.
We don’t so if he does come over he’ll probably look for a team with more playing time at PG.
Me when there are TWO Vildoza references in one day on here:
https://frinkiac.com/meme/S03E09/348914.jpg?b64lines=VmlsZG96YSEhISEh
It continues to be a pet peeve of mine that we just don’t seem to take fringe roster spots seriously. I was hoping the Heat getting so much well-deserved recognition for doing do might inspire us, but here we are with Jacob Toppin.
Worldwide Wes or whoever else would probably argue that using these spots to do favors for agents and others has a higher chance of benefitting the team than genuine flyers. Dunno, the Heat don’t seem to struggle to attract free agents even though they don’t use these roster spots on random CAA clients who aren’t good at basketball.
The Heat are also in a warm weather athlete destination city in a state with no income tax.
I, too, wish we cared more about the 10-16 spots on the roster. But when it comes to FA recruitment, Miami has built-in advantages that don’t require them to curry agent favor.
I guess a better way to describe the run-it-back strategy is as a a run-it-back but keep your powder dry to make a big move strategy.
There isn’t anything wrong per se with trotting out a team with a 2nd round ceiling. But the worst thing to do is to make a bad move that would really be like trying for the inside straight.
wasn’t the whole leon rose being a former agent being sold as some sort of advantage? what exactly are the benefits of that if we’re paying a tax?
“I was hoping the Heat getting so much well-deserved recognition for doing do might inspire us, but here we are with Jacob Toppin.”
We just picked up the 2024 NBA Slam Dunk Champion. Any idea what that’s worth from a publicity standpoint?
hi dj phan, how was the evening?
has the event changed since previous years?
Tiebreaker, bruh.
Nah see the point is to use as a benchmark the highest rated player available on the ESPN draft rankings. No changes allowed (hence I have to keep using Keon Johnson, even though he kinda sucks).
Then you measure Leon against the benchmark of a bot that automatically selects the best player.
It’s pretty simple. The Bot’s crushing Leon.
I’m more than happy to balance this out by admitting no other GM would have been able to deliver Brunson. Leon doesn’t suck at everything. He just sucks at the draft.
If Leon was so bad at drafting we wouldn’t have IQ and Grimes…
Yeah but he would have Tyrese Halliburton, Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman, Jalen Williams, Cam Whitmore, and Jalen Johnson.
Why are we saying we could’ve had Whitmore? Our pick was 23rd, Whitmore went 20th. Even without the Hart trade who’s to say we win 3 fewer games AND win a tiebreaker? This is way too attenuated to be a thing.
I don’t know who was highest on ESPN’s board at 23 or later, but Miller and Sensabaugh were highest on mine. Those are fair guys to benchmark against Hart. I think they’re both below 50/50 to outproduce Hart over the next four seasons, but it’s a very open question.
felt more subdued this year… the green room was huge … lots of SA fans obviously… umich and indiana fans and the various despondent but diehard fanbases making the travel… there’s been so many draftees in the stands these days… before they used to come by themselves(i think). i couldn’t tell who was who this year but there were a handful and they brought their whole entourage and they were dressed like they were in the green room.. really cute.. i just hope they got drafted…
it’s a great event to get close to some nba personalities if you’re into that… it’s a much more intimate affair than any of the games and they pass through and actually engage with folks sometimes.. sas in other years not sure if he was here this year… richard jefferson.. malika andrews(hottie)… weird evan turner sighting… mike woodson… who’s coaching in indiana had no idea… were some notables…
as far as suit game this class really brought it this year which i’m happy about… i’m not sure if gradey dick’s will be topped any time soon….
that’s not the standard.. when you trade out you’re effectively saying that this dude is better than everyone else that would’ve been available at that spot…. not just who would’ve been picked….
and yea missing out on a jokic or giannis or desmond bane occasionally shoudln’t be held against you… not everyone hits on everythign.. .but when you continually pass up true contributors? most of whom would have solved this 1st/2nd/3rd banana question already…. yea then it should… and that’s why that’s the standard and not some narrow universe speculating on who would’ve been the pick….
A couple of free agent forwards on possibly tanking teams — Kyle Kuzma and Jerami Grant — could be Leon Rose targets.
Personally, I’m not a huge fan of either, but Kuz had a nice year defensively and Grant can do a lot of things. And if Portland decides to blow it up like the Bullets, both teams could use the draft picks and very young players we have.
thanks dj phan…that sounds awesome…
When you trade out of a draft I think the standard should be whether whatever asset(s) you got back are more valuable than the BPA.
In the case of the 2021 draft, that was obviously not the case contemporaneously and that obviousness has only increased with hindsight.
In the case of the 2022 draft I think it’s more of a mixed bag. Jalen Williams is a very high bar, but I think the median return on our pick package is something like 15/25/35/35 (the two seconds from WAS will necessarily be high seconds). I’m not going to rule out that package being more valuable to us than Williams. It’s doubtful, but in any event I’m fine with the process.
In the 2023 draft, it’s Hart vs BPA at 23 mano y mano. I don’t think it makes a ton of sense to give the advantage to the potential draftee if they produce less but at a better $/production rate—we’re operating over the cap anyway.
Off the wall trade idea – an Athletic piece I was reading the other day mentioned that the Hawks might move Dejounte Murray if it seems like he’s going to leave in free agency in a year. An RJ + filler + picks for Murray swap could make some amount of sense, especially if it leaves us enough ammo to trade for a true star later on.
Because we could have had Whitmore.
The #2 guy on your board could have been ours if not for the trade that you boldly declared settled back in May.
Z-Man is actually right for a change. Everyone knows this team, which was in 8th place in the east at 30-27 when we made the trade, was not finishing 5th in the East without Hart coming in and making 50% of his three point attempts over 2 months. To suggest our pick would have still been 23rd without Hart is absurd.
We sold out for a first round series win over the Cavs.
That is entirely speculative and probably unlikely
The only real issue here is that the Circle Jerk Club spent two months dancing in the end zone every time Josh Hart made a 3PA, boldly declaring that everyone who opposed the trade was a fool.
Most of the board, I think, understands that Hart is a good player but came at a high price. The price feels a little higher today knowing we could have had someone as good as Whitmore.
But we still have one more key piece of data before rendering a final verdict: his next contract. The jury is still very much out on that trade, despite all the premature ejaculation.
Hubert, I think there are two groups here, the ones deriding opposing the trade, and those just dancing in the end zone because Hart quite literally changed everything, at least for that stretch of the regular season, through his amazing hustle and his (sadly unrepeatable) shooting.
I honestly and literally don’t give two shits about the pick vs. Hart argument. I enjoyed the hell out of Hart last year. If that means I prematurely ejaculated during a circle jerk, well, having le petite mort extend over a number of months sure works for me. Even if it’s not a pretty picture you paint.
If we had that #20 pick Leon would have punted it. Unless of course Whitmore was like one of the four guys he liked in the draft.
At least we got something out of that pick besides some paper clips.
Plus he was trash against the Heat.
It was a shortsighted, shitty trade and now he’s gonna be overpaid. You’d self-evidently rather take a swing at Cam Whitmore’s upswing than overpay Josh Hart at retail.
Is time an arrow, immutable?
Who is to say that in the timeline where we didn’t trade for Hart, Whitmore didn’t fluff his interviews and workouts and didn’t fall to 20?
Also isn’t the RIB strategy predicated on other teams being static or worse? Find it hard to believe all of the East competitors will regress or stay pat
Ah, Fandom happy or sad entirely dependent on others actions. Left to cheer or whine as is ones disposition.
When it looked like a sure thing that we were going to have two picks, trading the worse one for Hart seemed pretty good. It’s not like Rose and Thibs were likely to roster and prioritize two rookies.
When we made that trade the odds of Dallas dropping to #10 were tiny. So it seemed pretty solid.
Now with no pick it feels worse, I still think from a pure wins/losses standpoint it was probably worth it but from a fan stand point I’m bummed.
With that said if Rose had felt really strongly about drafting Whitmore I know he could have traded into the draft.
The Hart trade maybe got in the way of drafting Whitmore but more likely Rose would have pissed away the pick and we’d have some distant protected 1st and if that’s the case again I’d rather have Hart.
Until we fire Rose or Thibs (or both), we sadly will not be prioritizing the draft and every year draft night will likely be a bummer.
I mean, Leon probably made that trade thinking to himself that he only liked a handful of the guys in this draft and probably wasn’t going to make a pick. The draft is just not his thing.
CFB, I think the RIB is based on continued improvements in a number of our players while our two stars continue their star play, and other teams likely being about the same. It’s a risk, as the Bucks and Sixers slunk out of the playoffs like they didn’t care, which might not happen again, but while it’s early yet we haven’t seen anyone in the east get demonstratively better (the Celts got different, but how that plays out remains to be seen).
Big risk, but so is shooting our wad (to continue Hubert’s hyper-machismo imagery) on various older injury-prone scorers, some of whom don’t play defense, while getting rid of some of our exciting, hard-working kids in the process.
They lost that Friday night right after the trade deadline, before Hart’s first game. Had the season ended that night, they would have drafted 19th — before Whitmore was drafted.
if this is the standard we are judging him based off the general consensus … which is the average OUTSIDERS case… that’s a pretty low bar isn’t it? do you get extra credit for being better than chad ford or something?
the whole point to this whole process is to try and at least be above average…. you’re not going anywhere if other teams are identifying the stars that they had the opportunity to take…. if it’s just about jokic and you only had that one second rd pick then that’s not too bad… but if you’re consistently at spots where stars are getting picked behind you and you’re not getting any of them… that’s hurting you isn’t it? and other teams are benefitting? if they wouldn’t take them anyway then they should be penalized for that too! that’s like grading them on their own curve….
there’s other ways to grade them on.. and yes we have all in past lambasted prior regimes for not even taking what would be the consensus player there… but that’s coming from a place where they couldn’t even clear that low bar and that’s how terrible they was! that’s not the standard to actually measure what would be good draft outcomes….
and the bar gets lower and lower….
At least we got something out of that pick besides some paper clips.
that is kind of a pleasant change…
what’s up with obi’s brother jacob’s signing…is that like a good faith attempt to have obi stay a good soldier why we don’t extend, or make a new deal, whatever…
we ain’t gonna pay you any more on your current deal – but, we’ll pay your brother…
shoot, 6.8 million on a one year deal for a very decent backup power forward ain’t so bad…i like it for us…
How many games would we have won if we didn’t have Hart? I’m still waiting for you to offer any sort of formulation that shows we would’ve lost the 3 games necessary to give us a 75% chance of picking 20th or better.
And if we do want to make some formulation, then the record you cite shouldn’t include 23 games with Fournier, Rose, and Cam Reddish playing since none of them would have seen major minutes over the last leg of the season.
And if you do show we would’ve lost 3+ games over a 25 game sample with Brunson, you’re just showing that Hart was worth it.
With another unjustified assumption that nothing meaningful changes in the tiebreak
JFC, will the same 3 fucking people STFU already about the Hart trade.
Amen brother
so was hart’s impact like two games.. and that’s it? i think reasonable people can agree that whitmore dropping that far was kind of crazy.. but reasonable people can also agree that’s also the kind of possibility you forego when you trade out of a pick…. for all we know dariq whitehead … marcus sasser… kris murray.. nick smith could all turn into all stars… and yea that’s a crazy outcome but if you trade out of the pick that’s the sort of thing you pass up and you should be held accountable….
the whole we traded out of a pick but only if a.. b and c happens could it ever be considered bad for us because these are the only reasonable possibilities… that’s not really a good faith argument is it? i’m genuinely curious because that seems super odd to be saying …
and if the reason for that is that there is NO possibility that this trade would work out bad for us…. then that’s a preposterous position to be taking…. and we need an explanation….
it’s either hart made an impact or he didn’t matter…. and if he made an impact whitmore sliding is one of those unfortunate things that should be factored in somewhere…. if he didn’t matter then why the fuck are even talking about this….
Says one of the same 3 fucking people who obnoxiously mentioned the Hart trade 100 times in game threads.
If you dance on everyone’s head when you think you’re right, BBA, prepare to get shit on when you turn out to be wrong.
The fact that you think such a formula could exist is why I ignored you.
“Team won x% of games with player y, ergo team can be counted on to win x% of all games player y plays.”
You can’t even peddle that shit on reddit.
Put it this way: if you’re saying the Knicks would have drafter higher than 20 without giving up a first round pick for Hart, then you’re presenting an even greater indictment of the trade than I am.
I don’t dance on anyone’s head, I’m just a fan who roots for my team. I don’t come on here every day trying to pretend like I would be a genius GM and constantly making annoying, insufferable trolling comments because I want to feel smart.
In terms of picks I thought at the time we obviously fucked up the Obi pick. but drafting is not as easy as it is with the benefit of hindsight
Hubertsays:
November 19, 2020 at 06:52
some personal grades
Toppin at 8: C. A defensible pick, but not optimal. Would have preferred Halliburton or Vassel.
Quickley at 27: F. I’ll let the Athletic say it…
I absolutely agreed with Hubert draft night. And we were wrong about 2/3 of those guys. 29 teams passed on Desmond Bane. What I find annoying about the way this FO treats picks is they are actually decent at drafting when they take guys.
As for the great Cam Whitmore, I guess we’ll have to see.
Thanks raven for your measured reply. I just think about that old adage “if you aren’t moving forward, you are going backwards”. I guess we can hope for leaps from our younger players, and consistency from RJ, and injuries to be less of a factor.
But I’m sure that on other teams fan blogs they are saying the same thing about their players, but their team is also making moves to draft new talent, developing their existing talent (a seemingly life long knock on the knicks) and looking at making moves to improve.
But then again, we did win a play off series and weren’t the laughing stock of the league, so things are looking up. Bring on next season already
ftr, I like Whitmore the little I know of him, he seems like a great pick at that spot in the draft.
everything i’ve come across says julius’ value in the league is no where near equal to his production…he hasn’t quite mastered the whole mind/body/spirit thing yet…i’m twice his age and i haven’t either…
that being that – obi’s a real nice backup four…i like how the team ups it’s pace when obi’s out there – it’s fun to watch…him, quik, jhart, ihart, deuce can get things moving up the court pretty quick…
i’m becoming more inclined to believe we’ll do nothing, short of maybe letting jericho sims go…
biggest thing next year i’d like to see – quik get a chance to start…for the new york knicks…
next year hopefully thibs keeps an eye on getting the roster to the playoffs (what a nice assumption to be able to make before a season even begins 🙂 ) as healthy as possible…
I gave a friend who is a big basketball fan. He has rooted for the spurs for years but he watches other teams too. I was on the phone with him and starting saying something about the draft or something like that. He cut me off. He said he didn’t want to hear any complaints. He said the Knicks are a good team and fun to watch and he is starting to watch them too and so I had nothing to complain about. I shut up. He was right.
Durant is the funniest NBA player on social media and it’s not even close
As annoyed as I get at times I’d rather read 100 Hubert comments in a row than watch the Yankees offense without Judge.
So my hot take the other day about Zion seems unfounded. I copped a subscription to the Stein Line, and comments from Pels fans basically said he started the season in great shape and doesn’t have issues maintaining gameday shape. He’s having issues focusing on rehabbing properly. Then some theory about Moriah Mills’ Twitter account getting shut down partly as a stealth PR msg to him to get back in line with his rehab.
“He said he didn’t want to hear any complaints. He said the Knicks are a good team and fun to watch and he is starting to watch them too and so I had nothing to complain about. I shut up. He was right.”
This.
Also, I definitely understand the sentiment about not running back the exact same squad for next season, because we feel we can clearly see what the ceiling for the team is as currently constituted. Thing is, all the rumored trade targets come with legit red flags: a major one for me is too many of those guys are paid like perennial all-stars/franchise players when they’re not quite that. One thing Leon Rose has done well is give out fair value contracts that’s gonna look a lot better once the new CBA kicks in.
Yes, RJ and Randle are a clunky fit. But Brunson is the true star; with his age, pivoting to a Brunson-centric approach gives our boys more time to wait for the right opportunity to get the right upgrade(s).
I’m very happy the Knicks are finally playing the long game.
“I don’t come on here every day trying to pretend like I would be a genius GM and constantly making annoying, insufferable trolling comments because I want to feel smart.”
BBA preach
So I’ve been slowly scrolling through Vecenie’s and Hollinger’s review of the draft on The Athletic, and I’m in the 30s and 40s now, and every pick in that range that’s a 6’6″ guy reads exactly like what we are concerned about with RJ.
I’ll be honest though if RAB was still around I’d probably be on there everyday talking about how I could put a better roster together than Cashman has the past few years and I’m actually a huge Cashman fan!
it did kind of seem like a large majority of the folks drafted were between 6’7″ and 6’9″…
yanks win a lot of games…the astros have just been better for a while…and they cheat…
they’ve been both good at baseball, and good at cheating…
Problem with the Yankees especially for a fan like myself that came of age during the Torre dynasty years is just how different the Yankees are run now compared to those days. I’m not one to say I wish the Boss was still around but it’s hard nowadays not to get frustrated with the lack of accountability throughout the entire franchise. I’m currently reading the 1998 Yankees book by Jack Curry and reading the quotes from the players how they treated every game and the accountability they all had is night and day from the current Boone years.
But yes I’ve said it many times I have different expectations and patience when it comes to the Yankees and Knicks which is why I can thoroughly enjoy this past Knicks season while being extremely frustrated with the past few Yankees seasons even though every year they still make the playoffs.