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Knicks Morning News (2022.11.22)

  • “They Make the Knicks Look Good”: Lakers Holding Back on Big Trade Last Season Leaves NBA World Baffled – EssentiallySports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 5:50:00 AM

    “They Make the Knicks Look Good”: Lakers Holding Back on Big Trade Last Season Leaves NBA World Baffled  EssentiallySports

  • Winter Wonderland: Holiday New York Knicks gifts for fans – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 5:00:00 AM

    Winter Wonderland: Holiday New York Knicks gifts for fans  Daily Knicks

  • NFL MNF 49ers Top Cardinals; NBA Knicks Win Celtics Lose Albertus Women Win | Sports Radio 93.3 KJR – iHeart
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 4:05:00 AM

    NFL MNF 49ers Top Cardinals; NBA Knicks Win Celtics Lose Albertus Women Win | Sports Radio 93.3 KJR  iHeart

  • Payne’s 21 leads Suns to win over Knicks | Murray State | murrayledger.com – Murray Ledger and Times
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 1:00:00 AM

    Payne’s 21 leads Suns to win over Knicks | Murray State | murrayledger.com  Murray Ledger and Times

  • Knicks’ Immanuel Quickley: Locks in from downtown – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 12:48:28 AM

    Knicks’ Immanuel Quickley: Locks in from downtown  CBS Sports

  • Knicks’ RJ Barrett: Erupts for 25 points – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 12:44:13 AM

    Knicks’ RJ Barrett: Erupts for 25 points  CBS Sports

  • Knicks’ Jalen Brunson: Paces team in scoring – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 12:37:50 AM

    Knicks’ Jalen Brunson: Paces team in scoring  CBS Sports

  • Mitchell Robinson exits Knicks’ win early with right-knee soreness – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 12:34:00 AM

    Mitchell Robinson exits Knicks’ win early with right-knee soreness  New York Post

  • Happy Trails! Knicks’ Big 3 Quiets Thunder, Ends Trip on High Note – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 22, 2022 12:06:13 AM

    Happy Trails! Knicks’ Big 3 Quiets Thunder, Ends Trip on High Note  Sports IllustratedJalen Brunson’s season-high 34 points lead Knicks to needed win over Thunder  New York Post Knicks vs. Thunder – NBA Game Recap – November 21, 2022  ESPNThunder vs. Knicks: How to watch NBA online, TV channel, live stream info, game time  CBS SportsKnicks’ RJ Barrett delivers much-needed big performance  Yahoo SportsView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Darius Bazley returns in loss to Knicks – FantasyPros
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 11:26:00 PM

    Darius Bazley returns in loss to Knicks  FantasyPros

  • Luguentz Dort puts together best game of season against Knicks – FantasyPros
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 11:15:00 PM

    Luguentz Dort puts together best game of season against Knicks  FantasyPros

  • Jalen Brunson lifts New York Knicks over Oklahoma City Thunder – TSN
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 10:44:38 PM

    Jalen Brunson lifts New York Knicks over Oklahoma City Thunder  TSN

  • Knicks takeaways from Monday’s 129-119 win over Thunder, including Jalen Brunson’s season-high 34 points – Yahoo! Voices
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 10:32:53 PM

    Knicks takeaways from Monday’s 129-119 win over Thunder, including Jalen Brunson’s season-high 34 points  Yahoo! Voices

  • Wassup in Westchester: W-Knicks get first win of the season – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 8:10:52 PM

    Wassup in Westchester: W-Knicks get first win of the season  Posting and Toasting

  • Knicks’ Isaiah Hartenstein: Returns to bench role – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 7:30:36 PM

    Knicks’ Isaiah Hartenstein: Returns to bench role  CBS Sports

  • What Knicks trading for Shai Gilgeous-Alexander would mean for future – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 5:00:00 PM

    What Knicks trading for Shai Gilgeous-Alexander would mean for future  Daily Knicks

  • Baldwin artist creates one-of-a-kind painting for Knicks legend Walt ‘Clyde’ Frazier – Greater Long Island
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 4:50:40 PM

    Baldwin artist creates one-of-a-kind painting for Knicks legend Walt ‘Clyde’ Frazier  Greater Long Island

  • NBA rumors: What Knicks will NOT do to trade Evan Fournier – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 4:31:48 PM

    NBA rumors: What Knicks will NOT do to trade Evan Fournier  ClutchPoints

  • NBA Power Rankings: Knicks Sliding As Road Trip Ends? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 4:00:00 PM

    NBA Power Rankings: Knicks Sliding As Road Trip Ends?  Sports Illustrated

  • New York Knicks Join Lakers As Most ‘Overpriced’ NBA Team for Fans? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 2:06:55 PM

    New York Knicks Join Lakers As Most ‘Overpriced’ NBA Team for Fans?  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks coach Tom Thibodeau gives struggling RJ Barrett a piece of advice – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 2:06:41 PM

    Knicks coach Tom Thibodeau gives struggling RJ Barrett a piece of advice  Empire Sports Media

  • Knicks’ Quentin Grimes Putting Best Foot Forward in New Opportunity – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 1:55:37 PM

    Knicks’ Quentin Grimes Putting Best Foot Forward in New Opportunity  Sports Illustrated5 takeaways from Phoenix Suns getting defensive in cooking N.Y. Knicks  The Arizona RepublicKnicks’ Quentin Grimes makes most of start: ‘I know who I am’  New York Post Knicks Player Calls Steph Curry Greatest Player Ever  Sports IllustratedSUNS WIN: Blast Knicks, 116-95, for 10th win of young season  Bright Side Of The SunView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Knicks’ Derrick Rose: Iffy for Monday – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 1:26:54 PM

    Knicks’ Derrick Rose: Iffy for Monday  CBS Sports

  • Knicks’ Cam Reddish: Questionable Monday – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 1:24:20 PM

    Knicks’ Cam Reddish: Questionable Monday  CBS Sports

  • Report: Knicks’ Julius Randle has increase in trade value – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 10:26:29 AM

    Report: Knicks’ Julius Randle has increase in trade value  Empire Sports Media

  • Center of the Sun: Torrey Craig and Cameron Payne taking advantage of their opportunity – Bright Side Of The Sun
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 9:00:00 AM

    Center of the Sun: Torrey Craig and Cameron Payne taking advantage of their opportunity  Bright Side Of The Sun

  • Are the New York Knicks looking to offload Derrick Rose and Immanuel Quickley from their roster? – Basketball Network
    [news.google.com] — Monday, November 21, 2022 8:35:46 AM

    Are the New York Knicks looking to offload Derrick Rose and Immanuel Quickley from their roster?  Basketball Network

  • 153 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.11.22)”

    Today i’ll just be reading, because i don’t think the situation changed much with a win against a tanking team, for me Thibs still has to go. So i won’t get in the way of the optimism that will take over the thread, like Geo’s wise words.

    thank you new york knickerbockers…3 whole days to bask in this winning glow…

    Today i’ll just be reading, because i don’t think the situation changed much with a win against a tanking team, for me Thibs still has to go.

    This is more or less my thinking. Still, it’s promising that RJ finally had an efficient game on offense, that Brunson played so damn well, that IQ finally had a vintage IQ game, that Grimes was making an impact on defense, and that Thibs continued to experiment with Randle/Obi lineups even while he was playing three different centers.

    The roster make-up and overall direction still make little sense to me. But as treading water wins go, this had a lot to like.

    Nice little revenge game, watching an efficient shooting night from the 3-Lefties is enjoyable , Brunson was super, RJ’s 6 turnovers were not…

    I’m still confused and want another coach, but my 45 wins prediction is still in play (they’re still plus-1 in my table).

    Lillard will miss the next game, Bane will not play in the following one and Ja is doubtful, the Basketball Gods really love Thibs…

    We obviously lucked out facing them without Poku.

    🙂

    I watched the game with the sound off while on a zoom. RJ had some awful turnovers but looked good otherwise. He used his size to create space around the rim effectively a few times.

    Lu Dort is strong. The body checked Randle in a way that should not be possible.

    I am not yet out on Hartenstein. I love the way he passes the ball. His talents have been significantly marginalized.

    Mitch looked quite gimpy but he covers a much bigger volume of space when he is out there.

    Overall, we are what we thought we were because Jalen is what we thought he was.

    Just had a look at the standings for the first time this season. Utah is currently the number 1 seed in the West.

    Every win is dismissed. Every loss is amplified to the point that the sky is literally falling.

    We won on the road against a team that beat us and also has one player that is probably (ok definitely) better than any player on our roster.

    We went 3-2 on a Western Road trip. One of those wins was against a team that currently sits at first in the Western Conference. It was a good trip. Period.

    But yeah, a 500 team has never gotten better in the history of the NBA! Can’t happen!

    Also, the Thunder are 7-10. If they’re tanking, they aren’t doing a very good job at it.

    “Just had a look at the standings for the first time this season. Utah is currently the number 1 seed in the West.”

    Several of the supposedly “tanking” teams are playing well. Utah, Indiana, and OKC are playing hard, playing their best players even if they are vets, and doing well. They may not have as much talent as some other teams and will eventually fade, but they are trying to win. Even the teams that are doing poorly because of a lack of talent are sending out their best players and trying. I don’t see any tanking at all. I see a few bad teams that recently had veteran squads that obviously weren’t in a position to improve enough to contend. So they cleaned house and are starting over, but they aren’t purposely losing games. They are different stages of rebuild.

    As we approach the trade deadline and then later and some teams start to fade, we might see some “tanking” .

    I’m also worried about Obi, Bo. He went from by far our best 3-pt shooter to a guy who for the moment couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat. And is also missing layups and alley-oops. Is he sick? Hurt?

    There are 18 games left in 2022, 11 at home 7 on the road.
    If we play as I was expecting at the start of the season we can easily go 12-6 and if we do that we’ll be in the hunt for a “direct” playoffs spot.

    At the same time I don’t know what to expect from this team on a game to game basis.

    So I just sit and watch, I will never root for losses, I’m happy we won in OKC and I want us to sweep the rest of november.

    Also, my “optimism” has nothing to do with my opinion on Thibs, they’re two separate arguments.

    Basically we’re winning games when players try (for different reasons: pride, shame, revenge) and we’re losing games when they don’t.
    Our coach isn’t doing anything different*, we always play the same (outdated) schemes on both side of the floor.
    The only difference is effort.

    * To me pairing Randle and Obi together isn’t doing “something new”, when ball and players movement are exactly the same and Obi is used only as a three point shooter. But it’s only my opinion.

    He could have the flu.

    Also, I know he won’t be a starter but as Knicks fans we should all vote for Brunson to be an all-star. This dude needs to know how much we appreciate his play and that he signed with us. He absolutely deserves a reserve role between how he’s played so far this season and how he finished out last year in Dallas.

    Let’s make sure he gets lots of votes.

    So, let’s imagine that Thibs starts experimenting with psychedelia and goes away to stay permanently in India.

    What exactly do you expect to happen with a brand new coach?

    The pivot to an accidentank took a major hit on this road trip. Thibs just bought himself another 20 games. For better or worse, I loved every minute of the wins and about half of the minutes in the losses. Sue me.

    Will the real RJ please stand up….

    All 3 of the $26M AAV players played to their respective salaries last night. IQ and Sims were the only other players that played up to snuff on both ends. Grimes, Obi, Hart, and Deuce gave good defensive energy but shot a combined 8-31, including 1-13 from 3. They held the fort, which should be their job, so hard to get too down on them, except maybe Obi, who continues to confound.

    Are players allowed to play sick now? I see players still go in and out of the Health and Safety Protocol. Isn’t that for symptomatic illness?

    What exactly do you expect to happen with a brand new coach?

    On offense, more players movement, more cuts, better fastbreaks, better use of the high post (Hart).

    On defense: less paint “packing”, better coverage at the three point line, less switches, some zone.

    On everything else: “real” accountability for players, a better “feel” for hot players.

    “But yeah, a 500 team has never gotten better in the history of the NBA! Can’t happen!”

    I agree. Most of the team has upside. We also have a surplus of useful rotation players at a couple of positions and a bunch of excess picks that can be consolidated into upgrades. That Dallas pick is gaining value in what could be a strong draft because Mavs management (or should I say Cuban) is so inept. That’s not a bad position.

    We both know what it is.

    There is a subset of fans that wanted (and still wants) a total teardown and reset with a development coach and nothing else is ever going to satisfy them unless we win a championship (as if that always works lol).

    There are 30 teams trying to win a championship. Even if Rose executes his plan well there’s no guarantee of that. All we can hope is that over the next 2-3 years we get some development, add some good players via draft, and consolidate our excess assets into a significant upgrade somewhere that makes us a contender.

    Alan said the roster makeup makes little sense, and I agree, but if the issue is spacing, movement, and perimeter D, wtf was going on with Grimes’s minutes??

    I said it once before, but Brunson, IQ/RJ, Grimes, Obi, and Mitch/Hart should be a great young foundation to play. All this Randle/RJ crap with a big center makes no sense, especially with Randle defending the way he is. All the negatives of a big interior heavy team, without any benefit.

    “Is he sick? Hurt?”

    *********************

    Unfortunately, the answer is:

    “Inconsistent, which means at his age and in his D+3 season means … not that good.’

    Obi tops out at Tier 5. He’s not even there yet. I like Obi, we all like Obi — but that’s the reality.

    His brother is projected to go mid-second round. He has more off the bounce than Obi does. Obi has more explosiveness and excitement. The former is probably more important.

    In terms of the draft, I’m an early fan of Anthony Black, the 6-7 point at Arkansas, who looks to me — eye test warning!!! — to be a better Cade Cunningham than Cade Cunningham. Supposedly the shot is the issue, so we’ll see. He’s projected to go 14/15, so the Knicks should have at least one chance to get him. Early, tentative prediction that that projection is going to go up as the season goes on.

    >What exactly do you expect to happen with a brand new coach?<

    We'll either be the same or worse because the things everyone is complaining about are mostly a function of the players we have, the skills they have (and don’t have), and how they fit together (or don’t). It’s not the coaching. lol

    “I agree. Most of the team has upside.”

    Low ceiling upside, and even that’s being charitable.

    “We also have a surplus of useful rotation players at a couple of positions and a bunch of excess picks that can be consolidated into upgrades.”

    Remedial Association Math: Five nickels do not equal a quarter. Geometric, not arithmetic. (“Asymptotic” might be a better descriptor, or even “Zeno’s Paradox,” but whatever.)

    Now that we are back in “Mitch is injured a lot” mode (man, those contract years!) and we’ve gotten a good look at how the team functions without him, is anyone thinking that re-signing him might have been a mistake? I’m pretty ambivalent (always was) but wondering if any minds have changed one way or another…

    I’m just here to say it’s still very early. No one is “tanking” yet.

    Also, some of the supposed bad-teams-playing-well have had cakewalk schedules so far. For instance, Indiana has already played the Spurs, Pistons, Wizards twice, Raptors, Hornets, Rockets, and Magic twice. They are a fun, young team but far from extraordinary.

    We are .500, which is, frankly, slightly better than I expected. And that’s without Grimes and Mitch partly, plus RJ’s deep funk. And that was against a lot of good/decent teams, albeit with injured stars.

    And like Walker said, we could be entering a stretch that pushes us over .500. If that happens, Thibs will probably ride out the rest of the year, at least.

    Basically so far we don’t really know anything yet lol

    We actually know everything by now.

    With some good luck we’re likely to finish in the mid 40’s, with bad luck the high 30’s, and with no luck we’ll be 41-41.

    The only way out (this year, at least) is a massive stroke of good fortune, like when Pau Gasol fell into the Lakers laps when they were middling. Or the return of ISM. Or RJ Barrett getting injured.

    We’re 23rd in SRS, because most of our wins have come against bad teams, except the wins against good teams while the good teams were missing their superstars. The Utah win was a quality win because they appear to be a legit solid team. Other than that… ehhh.

    We’re slightly outperforming our Pythag, and we’re below average both on offense and defense. We need to play better than this or we’re probably looking at a sub-.500 season. We certainly COULD play better, I’m not ruling that out. But it has been an underwhelming start.

    Basically we’re winning games when players try (for different reasons: pride, shame, revenge) and we’re losing games when they don’t.

    I don’t think we would have beaten the Warriors and Suns if only we had tried.

    It’s not effort, it’s quality. When the other team’s quality is clearly superior, eventually it takes the fight out of the players and they appear to give up.

    There’s a lot of theories trying to explain what’s going on here but it’s really simple: we are an average team, and this is what average teams look like.

    2 yrs ago our Quality was Below Shit and we kicked many talented teams asses in the reg season.
    Allow me to believe that it’s effort.
    That has to do with FO player shopping around.

    Doesn’t feel as a True Team yet.
    And Thibs knows it.

    Expecting a trade…soon.

    I don’t think we would have beaten the Warriors and Suns if only we had tried.

    You’re probably right…

    But the Suns without Chris Paul, Cam Johnson and Shamet wouldn’t use us to sweep the floor if we had tried.
    Instead our defensive effort was zero and we were beaten 60-39 on the boards.
    You can play “honestly” and still lose with superior opponents (see our loss to the Celtics), in that game we didn’t even try.

    Julius Randle is tied with KP for 40th in usage% at 26.5. Among the players with usage of 25% or higher, only the following players have a higher TS% than his .585, Here’s the list and their contract status:

    Jokic (max)
    Beal (max)
    Harden (near-max)
    Mathurin (!) (rookie deal)
    Bane (rookie deal)
    Wood (bargain!)
    Ingram (max)
    AD (max)
    Zion (max)
    DeRozan (similar, bargain)
    Fox (max)
    Garland (max)
    Booker (max)
    Mitchell (max)
    Steph (max)
    Tatum (max)
    Lillard (max)
    Durant (max)
    SGA (max)
    Embiid (max)
    Doncic (max)

    I feel like everyone on the board actually agrees about this team but are still creatively brainstorming ways to argue about it. Which of course I applaud. How else is Mike K going to get that mansion in Monte Carlo?

    I still love Mitch, he’s my avatar for a reason, but with a new contract and more injury problems, a little bit of the bloom is off the rose. I’d also like it if he could maintain verticality and not bite on every single shot fake.

    Yeah I’m totally fine with where we are. Considering we haven’t had Mitch for a bit now and RJ had so many poor shooting games, 500 seems pretty solid.

    Mitch is by no means a star but he is VERY important to our defense. And Grimes is supposed to be that as well.

    All I’m saying..if Mitch gets back healthy and Grimes becomes the starter, we got a pretty solid team. We went 3-2 on a road trip out West. Make excuses for why some of the wins weren’t impressive all you want. The record is the record. We had injuries too. If someone said X Team is missing one of their starters who is also their best defensive player” you would expect that team to not win games. Yet here on this blog people just gloss over that like it doesn’t matter while at the same time dismissing any win because “they were missing this player.” Fuck that. Injuries are a part of the game.

    We learned some good stuff on this road trip too. They didn’t fold after the OKC loss. They didn’t hang their heads after losing 2 in a row. They fought back to win in the 4th Quarter against Denver. Sims was super impressive. Once Mitch is back Thibs will now have a legit 3 person center rotation.

    All we really need is for RJ to step up and we can build on this.

    Continues to be hilarious that a certain segment of posters seem to think us being .500 contradicts the idea that we’re not well-positioned long term.

    I predicted 41 wins! That is *precisely why* I do not think we’re well-positioned.

    Obviously, it’s great to see RJ and Randle play well. Them not being albatrii is probably more important for us long-term than more ping pong balls (though that can probably be debated from a pure utilitarian POV). Brunson is fantastic, we’re lucky to have him. IQ and Grimes are players to some extent, TBD to what extent.

    But until something materially changes, this thing where you all try to dunk on team “it’s actually bad to be .500 without clear avenues for improvement” is not convincing. It comes across as lacking in confidence Leon Rose will actually turn this around—if you’re so sure he will, why not wait until he actually, you know, does?

    It’s a beautiful morning
    I think I’ll go outside a while and just smile
    Just take in some clean fresh air

    Seems to me that people keep seeing more and more each day
    Gotta say, lead the way
    It’s okay, brand new day
    Gotta say, it’s okay
    Brand new day, gotta say, lead the way

    If they continue to slunk along at around .500, Thibs isn’t going anywhere.

    Yep. The dude is like a barnacle. He knows this getting fired from here would be devastating for his future coaching chances, so he is going to have be pried off of this team, and he always seems to win just enough to not get fired.

    I did not realize Sacramento was 9-6 with the best offense in the NBA and the 27th best defense. Kind of wild. One way to do it.

    Keegan Murray has not been the guy his college stats said he might be so far.

    It does seem like there has been a much longer period of separating the wheat from the chaff this NBA season. Maybe it’s nothing new but the trend towards a measure of parity seems to be continuing.

    Every win is dismissed. Every loss is amplified to the point that the sky is literally falling.

    gotta throw the challenge flag on this one swifty…i think we here at Knickerblogger are evolving nicely…

    i don’t think the spectrum of KB opinions really vary all that much…from the most despondent to the most manic…

    we seem to have all together reached a very nice place of understanding…

    from a fan’s perspective – take it while it’s there, because there’s absolutely nothing any of us can do about it, but to manage ourselves…

    “We’re 23rd in SRS, because most of our wins have come against bad teams, except the wins against good teams while the good teams were missing their superstars. The Utah win was a quality win because they appear to be a legit solid team. Other than that… ehhh.

    We’re slightly outperforming our Pythag, and we’re below average both on offense and defense. We need to play better than this or we’re probably looking at a sub-.500 season. We certainly COULD play better, I’m not ruling that out. But it has been an underwhelming start.”

    Underwhelming? I guess.

    I’d say in line with expectations, slightly on the higher side.

    There is a tendency to discount wins when other teams are missing one or two of their best players. I get it, but winning on the road against any team is still very tough, and Denver just beat Dallas on the road without Jokic.

    And it’s not like the Knicks have been at full strength. Granted, we don’t have a Jokic or Embiid to be missing, but some here have insisted that Mitchell Robinson is our best player (although now that Jalen Brunson is on board, maybe that has changed.) To win 3 of five on a long road trip essentially without Mitch and mostly with Obi and RJ playing terribly, Grimes being so-so for only one of the wins, and IQ’s shot all over the place, is somewhat impressive.

    Is there upside? Well, I think yesterday was our first real look at how the team performs with Randle, RJ and Brunson all playing at least reasonably well in the same game. IQ was the only bench player that gave them a real spark, but we got close to nothing on O from Grimes, Hart, Obi, or Deuce. Not to mention Rose, Mitch, Cam or Fournier.

    Of course, expecting consistency from RJ is a fraught proposition, but it doesn’t seem far-fetched to assume that we will get better and more consistent play from Obi, IQ and Grimes. We’ve already seen more of the OBI-Randle pairing than expected, and would probably see more if Obi stopped stinking up the joint on offense.

    Given that we are locked into win-now no matter how much people whine about it, the goal this year should be to increase the market value of every player on the roster. Winning helps with that.

    If the team reverts to losing, it might be a good thing because Thibs would eventially get fired, but it would also mean that our players are underperforming, especially the RJs and Randles who we are locked into, but also the Obis and IQs and Grimes’s who are possible trade pieces.

    And that’s the dilemma….asset depreciation vs. draft position depreciation.

    Since we are clearly not going to tanking except via the accidentank, it seems to me that any scenario that results in an increase in the value of our roster assets is more of a good thing than not.

    Since we are clearly not going to tanking except via the accidentank, it seems any scenario that results in an increase in the value of our roster assets is more of a good thing than not.

    maybe i’m crazy alongside you z-man, but that’s an excellent way of framing it…

    I’m with you, Geo. The differences in commentary here seem to be that there are two perspectives, those hoping/trying to enjoy a competitive team having a fun season, and those who are determined to win a championship as soon as possible.

    Both are perfectly reasonable, but lead to very different takes on what’s going on.

    I’m more in the first camp, largely because we’re clearly not going to win a chip in the near term, and probably not going to compete for one soon, either, barring fairly radical change (which can and does happen, but who knows). So being down on the team for that feels just a bit like complaining about the rain in Seattle.

    Having said that, I get VERY down on the team and players when it/they play badly. That’s like going out in the rain in your socks. Totally unnecessary and makes for fugly results.

    Z-Man, I would agree that the best realistic thing to hope for is that our guys appreciate as assets (I hate the dehumanizing language involved in these conversations but everyone knows what I’m talking about).

    The huge bummer of this season is that so far that hasn’t really happened. I’d feel much better if we had the same exact record, underlying statistics, etc. but, for example, RJ had a .580 TS%.

    Instead we’re .500 because Brunson is That Dude (which is a genuinely positive development, but also was baked in to some extent) and Randle is playing much better, but probably not enough to trade him. Our other important players have *regressed.* Can’t put lipstick on that pig.

    Could it change? Sure, we’re only 18 games in. But I would like to be spared the moralizing until, again, it actually does.

    “maybe i’m crazy alongside you z-man, but that’s an excellent way of framing it…”

    Regardless of the likelihood of success, which is certainly fair game to be skeptical about, the long-term strategy seems to be along these lines:
    -sign “core” players to “non-max” long-term contracts (Randle, Brunson, RJ, Mitch)
    -develop young non-core players in the context of winning (IQ, Obi, Grimes, Sims, Cam, Deuce) so that their market value increases
    -make the Knicks a preferred destination for disgruntled max players and free agents
    -have enough assets so that when a star shakes loose you can trade for him and have either a good enough core for that star to make the team a contender, or enough left to make another big move.

    Right now, there are some holes/setbacks in that strategy due to definitively bad decision-making. That really can’t be disputed.

    And if the current assets on the roster don’t appreciate, the strategy is likely to fail and result in first Thibs, and then the rest of the FO getting fired, if not this year then next.

    And what after that? With Dolan at the helm, who can say with confidence that the next FO will commit to a full rebuild and make smart drafting decisions? Is the devil we know better than the devil we don’t know?

    That’s why I am not concerned with whether we win 38 or 42 or 46 games nearly as much as I am concerned with how Randle, RJ, Brunson, IQ, Obi, Grimes, and Mitch, and to a lesser degree, Cam, Sims and Deuce, play. (Rose and Fournier are sunk costs, imo.) Whatever one thinks of their strategy, all of them playing well increases the likelihood of its success.

    Man, I never root for Mexico as our biggest rivals but that was a terrible call against them. Lewandowski getting a great whistle.

    What still kills me is that Dolan was the one who wooed Rose. Clearly, Rose would have had the freedom to take a different approach, if he wanted to. This is clearly the approach Rose wants to take. The guy left his cushy job to make a splash as a team president and this boring ass, unlikely to work approach was what he went with. It’s so disappointing.

    “Could it change? Sure, we’re only 18 games in. But I would like to be spared the moralizing until, again, it actually does.”

    From my perspective, I would like to be spared the endless whining about what should be happening but has zero chance of happening until, again, it actually does.

    Alas, I doubt that either of us will be spared.

    “Underwhelming?”

    I’d say that being 23rd in SRS, net rating, and pythag in a season in which Brunson is playing real well and Randle is exceeding expectations, a ranking that’s better than only three teams that are actually trying, two of which are Golden State and the Lakers pretty much defines the term “underwhelming.” Hard to see how it could be more underwhelming, really.(*)

    “Is there upside?”

    Not really.

    Quickley’s a Tier 5 player in his D+3 year who reasonably projects no higher.

    Toppin isn’t even that. (I covered him earlier today.)

    Barrett’s a Tier 5 player in his D+4 year whom many say isn’t even that. He possibly projects higher (at least in my opinion), but his ceiling is probably Tier 4A (Brunson’s current tier). I’d say the most likely baseline case for him is Tier 5. The road to actual Knicks upside runs almost entirely through him.

    Grimes is a Tier 5 player in his D+2 year who reasonably projects no higher.

    (*) In terms of ultimate wins, a team that’s 23rd in all the true performance peripherals after 18 games then proceeding to go 36-28 the rest of the way has to be something like a 1 in 10 proposition and even that’s probably a stretch. We’re kind of again at the point of rationalizing those peripherals or wishcasting them away — “they haven’t had this guy, they haven’t had that guy, that guy’s been misused, if only they weren’t so damn inconsistent, this guy’s better than he’s playing, yadda yadda” — but those are exactly the things that every fanbase of a mediocre team says.

    We’re an absurdly bad 3 point shooting team. Like, 29th in the NBA bad. We take a below average amount of 3’s, and we hardly make any. The Lakers are the only team in the league that shoots at a worse percentage.

    This seems like… a problem! The most accurate 3 point shooter on the team for the season has been Obi Toppin, and it seems like about 20% of his attempts aren’t even thrown TOWARDS a basket.

    Some of these guys will regress to the mean, and will shoot better, so that’s cool. I don’t think Brunson is going to shoot under 30% for the season, nor will RJ likely hang around the 27% mark all year. But sheesh. We really don’t have enough shooting.

    “Since we are clearly not going to tanking except via the accidentank, it seems any scenario that results in an increase in the value of our roster assets is more of a good thing than not.”

    That is one of the problems of having Thibs as coach. The narrative about this road trip outside of hard core Knicks fans is most likely that the better than expected result was “Thibs had these guys well prepared.” And it might be true. You would much rather it being about younger players taking that next step. But as long as no one has, a win is a considered a (well coached) team win.

    “Among the players with usage of 25% or higher, only the following players have a higher TS% than his .585, Here’s the list and their contract status:”

    I thought you “didn’t like ts%”?!? Talk about goalpost moving…

    “What still kills me is that Dolan was the one who wooed Rose. Clearly, Rose would have had the freedom to take a different approach, if he wanted to. ”

    THIS!
    Come on, if anyone thought that Rose was seriously going to rebuild through draft and trade for youth and assets…
    Exhibit A: Fournier existing on the Knicks and taking minutes from guys like Grimes and IQ for “wins”.
    Exhibit B: punting on drafts to accumulate tradeable assets to trade for a star.
    Exhibit C: Grimes and Obi hurting for minutes.

    Yes, Rose’s implementation is superior to prior regimes, so we don’t have a real Joakim Noah on our books, but his philosophy is not in keeping with win curve, tanking, and rebuilding. In other industries, incremental improvement would work. But in the NBA, you need to draft a superstar, and move from there.

    It looks like the season is coming down to a referendum on the kids. Brunson’s been every bit as good as you’d hope, Randle looks like he’s gonna Randle for whatever that’s worth. The three headed center is what it is. But RJ, IQ, Cam, Grimes, and Obi? If they all continue to be woefully inconsistent we scramble to make .500 if that. If a couple of them can be consistently productive-not all-stars just ordinary rotation players- then we’re where a lot of us thought we’d be- around 43-45 wins- still purgatory. To change the team’s trajectory somebody has to really break out or they all have to improve to legitimate rotation quality.

    Whose most likely? I’d say Grimes has the easiest path to solid starter- Just hit threes and Voila! The Knicks have a decent three and d starting shooting guard. Tighten the handle and show that those flashes off the bounce might be an actual thing and you have a very nice player. But he HAS to hit threes. He shot the three well last year and was good at Houston so I’m mildly optimistic.

    Quick is the same- hit your shots and you’re a really solid player. He’s been really inconsistent for the last year+ so while I’m probably 60-40 on Grimes, I’m probably 45/55 on Quick.

    RJ- Has to score efficiently or he’s just a guy. For a guy who supposedly came in with a big toolbox the peripheral stuff- the defense (only okay, and given his athletic limitations I don’t see it ever being better than that), passing (no court vision) and rebounding (thoroughly meh)- doesn’t move the needle at all. Given that he’s never going to stop shooting my odds for him ever earning his salary aren’t great. Maybe 35-40%? Really hope he proves me wrong.

    Obi and Cam- have no idea. Both guys have talent but both guys also disappear entirely too often for quality NBA players. It’d be nice if Randle shared a little of his aggression with Obi- it’d be better for both of them. For his career Obi’s free throw rate + is 79. This a hyper-athletic power forward- even last year’s 106 was underwhelming and this year’s 31 is pathetic. I have no confidence in him as a volume three point shooter- if guys guard him he won’t shoot- so he has to find some way to do something off of the bounce. Cam- very high defensive ceiling, who knows about the offense.

    I see that Z-Man is back to complaining about other people’s “whining” yet again and it’s kind of a slow holiday week, so I’m going to respond.

    I entirely get what he’s trying to say about “his reality.” It’s not an entirely unfair template, kind of in a Dr. Strangelove, How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Bomb sense. I get it.

    However …..

    There was in fact one time when the entire board was united in purpose and perspective and didn’t give two shits about the future or assets or tanking or what should be done in the offseason or anything else. It cared only about immediate basketball, and the Knicks winning by any means necessary — the sublime nirvana of the direction Z-man insists on steering things.

    That was Round 1 of the 2021 NBA playoffs.

    Now, how did Z-Man respond to what the board of united purpose wrote about the basketball and only the basketball that took place in that series?

    Did he criticize Tom Thibodeau for wasting possessions on the awful Elfrid Payton in Game 1 only to lose Game 1 on the final possession?(*)

    I submit that he did not. He defended Tom Thibodeau and Elfrid Payton and complained about critics of playing the awful Elfrid Payton. “Thibs saw this, you don’t see it, Thibs sees practice, you don’t,” the whole panoply.

    Did he acknowledge the obvious — that Tom Thibodeau had been outcoached by Nate McMillian? That Nate’s best player ran roughshod over Thibs’s defense while at the same time Nate turned Thibs’s best player into a simpering puddle of goo from literally the first time he touched the ball on the Garden floor?

    I submit that he did not.

    There’s probably more in that vein, but the point is made.

    The Lakers are the only team in the league that shoots at a worse percentage.

    Which is insane, right? That a team that should obviously surround Lebron and AD with shooters just…didn’t.

    Ben Simmons looks like he’s slowly but surely turning back into Ben Simmons. It is crazy that it has taken him this long to do so.

    Devin Vassell looks like he’s cementing the leap, which is going to make the Obi pick look even worse down the line.

    The Spurs are 30th in everything the Knicks are 23rd in. Devin Vassell is younger than Quentin Grimes. You think their fans aren’t rightfully talking about “upside”?

    “I’d feel much better if we had the same exact record, underlying statistics, etc. but, for example, RJ had a .580 TS%….and Randle is playing much better, but probably not enough to trade him.”

    As I posted above, Julius having a .585 TS% on a 26+% usage seems to put him in pretty elite company in terms of salary. Even if he is not an attractive trade target, he’s giving the team their money’s worth. Since he’s a sunk cost, isn’t that a huge positive?

    And isn’t Cam a pleasant surprise, particularly his scoring at the rim? We are now up to 588 minutes and 104 2pt attempts and he at .548 from 2 as a Knick. More importantly, he’s eliminated Fournier’s playing time completely. I know he’s not Kai Jones or Jalen/keon Johnson, but isn’t it still an unexpected positive development?

    “Instead we’re .500 because Brunson is That Dude (which is a genuinely positive development, but also was baked in to some extent)”

    But was it really? He’s posting career highs in points, assists, steals, and free throws per 36. Nearly everyone above him in AST% is on a max contract (exception: Haliburton 🙁 ) and he has a better AST/TOV ratio than all of them.
    ***

    More generally, the team as currently constructed doesn’t have a #1 option-type star, hence the participation in the Donovan Mitchell sweepstakes. They are employing a 1A-1B-1C approach to mitigate that significant problem. Of the three, Julius and Brunson are holding their own, while RJ sticks out like a sore thumb right now. But last night was a glimpse of what could be if he turns it around.

    Now Julius might regress and RJ might stagnate at a TS in the low .500 range. And teams might have better game plans for Brunson as the season develops. It would surely suck if any of that that happens. But in a high-stakes payback game, all three of them showed up and it was great to see. I got a glimmer of hope from that.

    As to the other young guys, even if they top out below our best hopes, I’m still intrigued with where that will be. The IQ that showed up last night was a very valuable player. Grimes went 0-4 from 3 and is 4-18 on the year…that’s not going to continue. Obi? He can’t be as bad as he’s played on this road trip, and he’s seeing more minutes with Julius (although probably losing those gained minutes to Sims right now because, well….)

    Anyway, that’s the way I see it right now.

    A choice excerpt:

    “If the Knicks lock in on a star in July or August, whichever team they’re talking to might just prefer an extra pick instead of the role player who’s about to get paid. A similar conversation surrounded the Utah Jazz and RJ Barrett this past offseason, though Utah ended up making a play for Barrett anyway.

    The current front office has valued its talent highly in trade negotiations of the past, even if it hasn’t shown faith in clearing the roster so its younger members can play abundantly. The Knicks watched the team move with a different energy around Toppin last season and decided to re-sign Mitchell Robinson, add Isaiah Hartenstein, re-sign Jericho Sims and hold onto Julius Randle, blocking Toppin’s path once again. They held onto Evan Fournier and Derrick Rose and are now overloaded with guards, enough so that it took an injury to Cam Reddish over the weekend just to get Quentin Grimes back into the rotation. Trading away one rotation player without bringing one back (à la flipping a guard for a draft pick) would grease the situation. It’s how Rose ends up on the trade block, as well, according to Charania’s report.

    But the Quickley case, more so than the Rose one, is what inspires ruminating about the Knicks’ swing-for-the-fences ideology.

    Rose is 34 and playing 13 minutes a game. His contract expires after this season. Meanwhile, Quickley should be part of the future. Yet, holding onto him could mean locking into a middling roster.

    The Knicks’ cap sheet isn’t so flexible.

    In 2024-25, which would be the first season of a Quickley or Toppin extension, the salaries of just Jalen Brunson, Julius Randle, Robinson, Barrett and Grimes add up to $97 million. Let’s say the Knicks hypothetically re-signed Quickley and Toppin for approximately the midlevel exception each. That would bring them to the ballpark of $120 million to pay for less than half the roster.

    The cap projects to be around $140 million that season, but it’s not like the team would have $20 million in room. It would need to fill seven-to-eight more roster spots. It would need to decide on Reddish (a free agent after this season), Hartenstein (a free agent in 2024) and Sims (who the Knicks would almost certainly bring back in this scenario since he has a cheap non-guarantee for the 2024-25 season).

    All of this would be for a group that, so far, seems to cap out as a Play-In Tournament hopeful.”

    I think at this point the Knicks are walking an impossibly fine line: they need a rotation spot opened to build up the value of all their middling assets, and they need a star via trade and a second via internal development. Randle is stuck here til the end of his deal; brunson isn’t going anywhere either. So to satisfy all three of the above requires trading one of Obi and IQ for some kind of asset, so that you have another bullet in the chamber for a trade.

    I think this is what inspires the doom and gloom: that one of the young guys is not going to be here for any good Knicks iteration. If someone does have to be traded though, I’d prefer that it be Obi.

    Katz:

    “If the Knicks lock in on a star in July or August, whichever team they’re talking to might just prefer an extra pick instead of the role player who’s about to get paid.”

    The Knicks seem cluelessly convinced that other teams are going to be conned by the “excess value” the Knicks are, in their minds only, squeezing out of this “strategy.”

    If the draft pick is worth more than the role player, why would any team give up the draft pick for the role player? If it’s not, then why would any team be conned into thinking it is?

    The same nonsense applies to turning the lottery pick into “three future first rounders.” No one, but no one, is conned by this. Most likely when they tried it on Danny Ainge, he told his staffers about it offline and they had a good belly laugh.

    Remember that line late in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood aimed at Cliff Booth as he departed the Spawn Ranch?

    “George isn’t blind! *You’re* blind!!!!!”

    That’s the Knicks.

    Immanuel Quickley isn’t bringing back a 1 other than in something akin to the Marcus Morris situation.

    I feel like everyone on the board actually agrees about this team but are still creatively brainstorming ways to argue about it. Which of course I applaud. How else is Mike K going to get that mansion in Monte Carlo?

    Spot on.

    Let’s talk about music. I want to know what Donnie Walsh is playing at his house for Thanksgiving.

    Perhaps we create a knickerblogger playlist with two songs from everyone and put it on spotify.

    E, can you tell me how, given the fact that you know that Z–Man is physiologically incapable of not defending himself when attacked, that your post above is not the quintessential definition of a troll?

    Yeah, it’s a slow holiday week, but how’s about you not ruin it for the rest of us.

    Anybody here check out that band from (I think) London, “Dry Cleaning”? “Lead singer” doesn’t sing but instead recites, but the background is so good that it actually works.

    “Let’s talk about music.”

    OK. I actually just spent a week in Iceland a few weeks ago with my better half. We went to the Iceland Airwaves music festival. We saw so many great bands.

    I’ve been stuck in a music rut for awhile. Mainly just diving deeper into the music of my youth from the 80’s and 90’s. But this festival I got to see a lot of GREAT new acts out there. A few that I loved.

    Amyl & the Sniffers – Australian punk band – very Joan Jettesque

    Emotional Oranges – Hip-Hop/R&B duo from LA. Very smooth retro/throwback sound (late 80’s/mid 90’s feel).

    Porridge Radio – British Band – Emo rock – sort of like joy division meets the pixies.

    Axel Flovent – Icelandic folk/rock/pop singer (sings in english). I guess I would compare him most to Bon Iver but more produced?

    Another quesiton… what is Alan watching? For real.

    Andor has exceeded expectations. White Lotus is fun if unspectacular. I will eventually get to the new season of the Crown (is it good?). What else is out there these days?

    The differences in commentary here seem to be that there are two perspectives, those hoping/trying to enjoy a competitive team having a fun season, and those who are determined to win a championship as soon as possible.

    That is not at all a fair description of the camps.

    This team is competitive, and the people hoping to enjoy a competitive team are the most upset people here because the team isn’t competitive enough.

    Meanwhile, Team Championship or Bust has settled into the Radical Acceptance phase and is just chilling, shooting the shit til we get the next administration. We don’t want a championship as soon as possible. We just want good leadership as soon as possible.

    Fire Thibs, Trade Randle

    It was good to see RJ play better. He is going to make shots and get his three-point % back to at least where it has been over the last couple of seasons. I am not too worried about him. He didn’t take a huge step forward which was a shame but I doubt he took a huge step backward.

    I am liking what I am seeing from Grimes even if his shot isn’t falling. I think that will come.

    Obi’s struggles are not too concerning either. He missed a couple bunnies and two of his three-point misses weren’t real misses. One was a 3/4 court heave and the other was a prayer with 1 second on the shot clock after RJ hot-potatoed him the ball.

    I really hope we do not trade IQ. I think he is better than what we’ll get for him and trading him would really shine a light on a lack of good direction for this team.

    “There’s probably more in that vein, but the point is made.”

    You are correct. I stood by Thibs then and I still do in retrospect. He did a spectacular job that year, CoTY or no CoTY. He did the best he could against a clearly better ATL team in the playoffs. I deferred to his judgment when he chose to dance with the girl that brung him. After he benched Payton they lost three straight games anyway. Randle played terribly, was that Thibs’ fault too?

    I agree that it might have been for the better if we had tanked (and was against hiring Thibs and making the playoffs didn’t change that), but that has zero to do with the job Thibs did that year or in the playoffs.

    How conveniently we forget that the team overachieved even the wildest optimistic predictions! (except swifty’s god bless him!)
    Every single win that season was critical getting home court advantage. The most critical one was an OT win over the Hawks at home, at which I was in attendance. For most of the game it was clear that the Hawks were the better team who were toying with us, until Trae hurt his ankle. And they STILL almost beat us! That game gave us the tiebreaker when we finished tied with them, and it came down to winning four of our last 5 games just to do that.

    I seem to recall that during that season you habitually regurgitated the most arrogant, condescending, and sometimes hateful language to describe Thibs, Leon, Julius…that is, until you completely disappeared from the board for a couple of months during the second half of the season. Not a single “Hey, great game, Julius!” Not a single “Nice job there, Thibs!” Not a single “Wow, Rose is better than I expected!” Not a single “Way to protect the rim, Nerlens!” I recall a poster or two saying “Hey, where’s E?” during the long winning stretch run, likely due you being such an insufferable drone of negativity for months before that, never a kind word to say about the FO, the coach, the star. Then come playoff time and you magically parachute back in to piss vinegar on the raw nerves of those who enjoyed the ride.

    I also seem to recall how joyous it was to unexpectly get to the playoffs while the championship-bound Nets crumbled after they had to beg their *fanbase* to buy playoff tickets. If I offended anyone for reveling in that moment, even though it has proven to be detrimental to the long term rebuild, I guess I have to own that.

    But whatever I am, as a Knicks fan, a KB poster, a human being, whatever form of asshole you, or Hubert, or anyone else perceives me to be, I can definitively state that I am supremely thankful that I am nothing like whatever the hell you are, E.

    And frankly, I think most folks here don’t give two shits about any grievances from the past. Let it go already.

    E, can you tell me how, given the fact that you know that Z–Man is physiologically incapable of not defending himself when attacked, that your post above is not the quintessential definition of a troll?

    Yeah, it’s a slow holiday week, but how’s about you not ruin it for the rest of us.

    doubt me if you will – but, i just stood up and clapped to this comment…

    go kick the dog, or holler at the kids – no doubt they’ve done something in the past 24 hours to deserve it…

    but, yes, please try to refrain from poking on the z-man…

    i just stood again and clapped…

    yeah E, um, i’m gonna have to disagree with you there…

    Hahaha. When someone disagrees about if they were all in agreement at least once, you have your answer. 😀

    i’ll tell ya cyber – i’ve learned a trick or two from E himself when it comes to presenting “arguments” online…

    sorry to see another rainy day there in Porto…not to be too personal or weird:

    what’s the view like from your balcony?

    Anybody here check out that band from (I think) London, “Dry Cleaning”? “Lead singer” doesn’t sing but instead recites, but the background is so good that it actually works.

    I loved their first album New Long Leg, and love the vocal style regardless of what’s going on over the top. Fun modernist lyricism too. Black Country, New Road is another band in that vein, although they are less angular (Wire-esque) post-punk and more post-rock a la Godspeed! You Black Emperor. Haven’t heard Stumpwork yet.

    Strong recommend for Jockstrap’s I Love You Jennifer B, my album of 2022 so far, which is one of the members of Black Country with some guy doing some crazy production stuff behind her ethereal voice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vbUN3AaVe4

    Also, valuing IQ at only a single first is objectively insane, if true. Even if the first is a low lotto pick!

    IQ is not fetching a first round pick from anyone in the NBA.

    Sorry Raven, too late. And if you noticed, I tried to let some of it go. I also tried to work out a non-aggression pact. Alas…

    part of the reason why Z-man has such an issue with getting along with ppl is that for whatever reason it’s other people trolling him instead of Z-Man actually acting like a grownup….

    there’s been too many apologists to actually hold him accountable.. because nobody actually does including himself despite all his efforts on ‘non-aggression pacts’…

    it’s always someone else’s fault for whatever reason….

    “doubt me if you will – but, i just stood up and clapped to this comment…”

    There’s a GIF for that!!

    Oops.

    I haven’t heard the new Dry Cleaning yet but really liked the first one but almost entirely for the “singer” whose bored, snotty art school affect I found very entertaining.

    Pitchfork-y things I liked- The new Perfume Genius (over-the-top avant-pop) and the new Alvvays record (super sugary pop with enough fuzz to keep it from getting too cloying)

    Not for everybody but:
    I Get along Without You Very Well by Ellen Arkbro and Johan Graden. This goes out to Jowles because it’s the closest thing to Mark Hollis’s solo record you’re likely to hear. Totally somnambulant but lovely (to my ears anyway). The track Love You, Bye wakes up enough to scratch that Talk Talk itch.

    And finally, if you’re looking to spend Thanksgiving weekend curled up into a fetal ball despairing at the future of mankind I have your soundtrack:
    Slot Machine Music by Adrian Rew. Untreated field recordings made in Mid-Western casinos. Put on your headphones and descend into hell.

    That Katz piece is a great but sobering read. I’m glad he firmly debunked the idea we have “cap flexibility,” which was true prior to the summer of 2021 and decidedly untrue after it, but for some reason people never stopped saying it.

    Trading for two stars pretty much doesn’t happen, period. So we’ll need to draft one (unlikely) or hope someone on the roster turns into one (unlikelier).

    “These are, and always have been, reasonable criticisms of the Rose administration.”

    Agreed. Although we might have differing parameters about a) your initial point, as I have seen it brought up countless times and b) where the line is between “complaining” and “endless whining” is.

    “Is there really a zero percent chance of those things happening?”

    Zero chance is a bit much. My guess is that there will be additional draft-day trade outs, non-optimal trades, and premature signings. To me, it’s about a) the magnitude/impact, b) frequency, and c) how long to wait before passing judgment.

    “If so, let’s just fire him now and move on.”

    Now THERE’S something that there is zero percent chance of happening, at least in the foreseeable future. Agreed?

    sorry to see another rainy day there in Porto…

    Yeah, the small river i pass to go pick my kid at school was almost at the road level. Next purchase: a car-boat! 😀

    what’s the view like from your balcony?

    I have 2 balconies, at the front and in the back, and the view is the same – i am surrounded by mountains. 🙂

    “Trading for two stars pretty much doesn’t happen, period.”

    ************************

    Having utterly whiffed in their effort to trade for one star a few months ago, Leon Rose has now convinced himself that the New York Knicks will be able to trade for two stars and has adjusted his strategy accordingly.

    LOL Knicks.

    Sorry Raven, too late. And if you noticed, I tried to let some of it go. I also tried to work out a non-aggression pact. Alas…

    Perhaps you should have tried not referring to other people’s opinions as “endless whining.”

    I’m unpleasantly surprised that a certain poster thought it would be a good idea to weigh in. So much for letting sleeping dogs lie. But whatever, I’ve said all I need to say on both matters, and I doubt that anyone wants further exchanges.

    “You are correct. I stood by Thibs then and I still do in retrospect.”

    Finally.

    OK. I actually just spent a week in Iceland a few weeks ago with my better half. We went to the Iceland Airwaves music festival. We saw so many great bands.

    I’ve been stuck in a music rut for awhile. Mainly just diving deeper into the music of my youth from the 80’s and 90’s. But this festival I got to see a lot of GREAT new acts out there. A few that I loved.

    Amyl & the Sniffers – Australian punk band – very Joan Jettesque

    Emotional Oranges – Hip-Hop/R&B duo from LA. Very smooth retro/throwback sound (late 80’s/mid 90’s feel).

    Porridge Radio – British Band – Emo rock – sort of like joy division meets the pixies.

    Axel Flovent – Icelandic folk/rock/pop singer (sings in english). I guess I would compare him most to Bon Iver but more produced?

    Thanks for the great post, Swifty! I’ve heard that festival is great.

    I realized something over the weekend while reliving my youth at the Smashing Pumpkins concert.

    Actually I realized two things… one is that we are a little bit Uncle Rico. If you’re not yet, you will be.

    The other is that… I don’t think I need any new music. I’m 45 years old, and I’m drawing a line in the sand. Everything produced after today is out. In fact, I could probably move that line back 6 years.

    There is enough music from pre-2016 to keep me occupied for the rest of my life, and I need to protect my cognitive load before I forget my favorite deep cut from the Wu-Tang Clan.

    OK. I actually just spent a week in Iceland a few weeks ago with my better half. We went to the Iceland Airwaves music festival. We saw so many great bands.

    I’ve been stuck in a music rut for awhile. Mainly just diving deeper into the music of my youth from the 80’s and 90’s. But this festival I got to see a lot of GREAT new acts out there. A few that I loved.

    Amyl & the Sniffers – Australian punk band – very Joan Jettesque

    Emotional Oranges – Hip-Hop/R&B duo from LA. Very smooth retro/throwback sound (late 80’s/mid 90’s feel).

    Porridge Radio – British Band – Emo rock – sort of like joy division meets the pixies.

    Axel Flovent – Icelandic folk/rock/pop singer (sings in english). I guess I would compare him most to Bon Iver but more produced?

    Thanks for the great post, Swifty! I’ve heard that festival is great.

    I realized something over the weekend while reliving my youth at the Smashing Pumpkins concert.

    Actually I realized two things… one is that we are a little bit Uncle Rico. If you’re not yet, you will be.

    The other is that… I don’t think I need any new music. I’m 45 years old, and I’m drawing a line in the sand. Everything produced after today is out. In fact, I could probably move that line back 6 years.

    There is enough music from pre-2016 to keep me occupied for the rest of my life, and I need to protect my cognitive load before I forget my favorite deep cut from the Wu-Tang Clan.

    Meanwhile, Team Championship or Bust has settled into the Radical Acceptance phase and is just chilling, shooting the shit til we get the next administration. We don’t want a championship as soon as possible. We just want good leadership as soon as possible.

    Radical acceptance. I would not call the thread the day after we lost to Golden State and Phoenix “radical acceptance.” I would describe it as one of the doomiest and gloomiest, the sky is falling, panic inducing threads I’ve ever read on this blog. I literally couldn’t comment because it was so negative and out of proportion to what our actual situation is.

    “Perhaps you should have tried not referring to other people’s opinions as “endless whining.””

    It was in response to TNFH’s comment about “moralizing, and was meant kind of tongue-in-cheek. The point was that we each find different things to be annoying, depending on our own point of view. If that came across as triggering to anyone, my bad for not choosing better words.

    Quickley’s a Tier 5 player in his D+3 year who reasonably projects no higher.

    Toppin isn’t even that. (I covered him earlier today.)

    Barrett’s a Tier 5 player in his D+4 year whom many say isn’t even that. He possibly projects higher (at least in my opinion), but his ceiling is probably Tier 4A (Brunson’s current tier). I’d say the most likely baseline case for him is Tier 5. The road to actual Knicks upside runs almost entirely through him.

    Grimes is a Tier 5 player in his D+2 year who reasonably projects no higher.

    Straight up gibberish

    Radical acceptance. I would not call the thread the day after we lost to Golden State and Phoenix “radical acceptance.” I would describe it as one of the doomiest and gloomiest, the sky is falling, panic inducing threads I’ve ever read on this blog. I literally couldn’t comment because it was so negative and out of proportion to what our actual situation is.

    Yeah, but go read it again. The people losing their shit this season were mostly in team optimist before the season started.

    Think of it like a cascading waterfall of disappointment.

    Some of us got wet very early. Some of us are getting wet now. Some of you are still under that lovely umbrella called hope.

    In the end, we will all end up soaked in the same pool of tears. Even you, Swifty. That is the one thing that unites us.

    It was in response to TNFH’s comment about “moralizing, and was meant kind of tongue-in-cheek. The point was that we each find different things to be annoying, depending on our own point of view. If that came across as triggering to anyone, my bad for not choosing better words.

    The problem with people like us, Z-Man, is we’ve been abrasive so many times that some people read us in a way that we don’t intend. It is unfortunate, but it is also our just dessert for having a little too much asshole in us.

    Then again, a lot of these snowflakes aren’t even from New York. They’d be a lot less triggered if they had spent their whole lives here like us.

    (That was a joke, no one here is a snowflake, except in the sense that we are beautiful and no two of us are alike.)

    If we have a .500 record with Cam and RJ playing big amount of minutes, just imagine our record without them!

    There a lot truth about pieces not fitting together and having quite a glut of players. That is part of Leon’s approach, which, for better or worse, has maximized the use of our cap space with middle of the road players with middle of the road contracts. In that sense, trading players does not leave the team bare, and these players have certain trade appeal for other teams, even if they will never be the centerpiece of a trade. Donovan Mitchell was really expensive and Cleveland outbid us, but maybe there will be other opportunities, and we are in a good position to take advantage of them.

    That was a joke, no one here is a snowflake

    Really? I was already stretching my fingers… 😀

    I Get along Without You Very Well by Ellen Arkbro and Johan Graden. This goes out to Jowles because it’s the closest thing to Mark Hollis’s solo record you’re likely to hear.

    sounds up my alley, I’ll check out the other stuff too — Alvvays just sounded like above-average indie pop when I listened to their earlier stuff, but I liked it just fine. Perfume Genius’ No Shape got a lot of play during COVID quarantine between me and the former Lady Jowles. I love me some art pop — Jockstrap is in the same vein.

    Then again, a lot of these snowflakes aren’t even from New York. They’d be a lot less triggered if they had spent their whole lives here like us.

    new york, new york

    ah, what a great place to be from 😮

    IQ is not fetching a first round pick from anyone in the NBA.

    i suspect you’re wrong about this.

    Another quesiton… what is Alan watching? For real.

    At the moment, I’m focusing on a few big projects (one of them publishing on Thanksgiving, one not until January), so I’m not watching a ton of TV currently debuting new episodes, other than Andor, Abbott Elementary, and Mystic Quest.

    But I’m also putting together by best of 2022 list, and will likely be a lot of shows on there from either FX (which streams all of its shows on Hulu) or from Hulu itself. Reservation Dogs, Atlanta, The Bear, The Patient, What We Do in the Shadows, Ramy, etc. They’re on a real heater right now.

    Also, while on the subject of music, I do not know if there are any Tegan and Sara fans here (I only vaguely know their stuff), but there is a great show about them called High School on Freevee, the terrible name for Amazon’s free ad-supported streaming service. (You can either watch their stuff via the Prime Video app, on Amazon.com, or via the Freevee app.)

    They better not trade IQ.

    Unless it’s for Maxie or Bones, in which case I might not notice…

    #The other is that… I don’t think I need any new music. I’m 45 years old, and I’m drawing a line in the sand. Everything produced after today is out. In fact, I could probably move that line back 6 years.

    There is enough music from pre-2016 to keep me occupied for the rest of my life, and I need to protect my cognitive load before I forget my favorite deep cut from the Wu-Tang Clan.#

    Same here
    But I’m drawing the line back in 2000!
    1965-2000
    35yrs of mostly pioneering music for post-modern digging!
    Despite the fact that I’m listening to tons of music i find it very hard and compulsive to keep in touch with the new hypes.
    Now if something “new” grabs my attention or stands the test of time I’d be happy to give it a fair chance.
    But searching for new stuff?
    Time just ain’t enough

    Also, while on the subject of music, I do not know if there are any Tegan and Sara fans here (I only vaguely know their stuff), but there is a great show about them called High School on Freevee, the terrible name for Amazon’s free ad-supported streaming service. (You can either watch their stuff via the Prime Video app, on Amazon.com, or via the Freevee app.)

    Such a great show, with impressive new finds for the two leads. The final episode ended kind of abruptly, though.

    As for Freevee, it’s funny, first Amazon used the name IMDB.TV, which was terrible because no one knows what “IMDB.TV” means as far as a streaming service goes, so they wanted to stress that this was free, hence Freevee, which is still a terrible name.

    i suspect you’re wrong about this.

    You think? He’s got 1.5 years left on his rookie contract. The undrafted 1RP has four. That’s a high bar to climb.

    Cam was in the same situation, and he had lottery pedigree. Atlanta couldn’t get a guaranteed first for him, and Leon doesn’t have the benefit of being able to trade with himself.

    “The problem with people like us, Z-Man, is we’ve been abrasive so many times that some people read us in a way that we don’t intend. It is unfortunate, but it is also our just dessert for having a little too much asshole in us.”

    Agreed.

    “Then again, a lot of these snowflakes aren’t even from New York. They’d be a lot less triggered if they had spent their whole lives here like us.”

    You can take the boy out of The Bronx, but…

    Nice, JK47. Where can I find your old podcast, too? And also… what are the odds I can listen to you and Donnie Walsh talk about music over drinks while I’m out here?

    Some records I have enjoyed from this year:

    Big Thief – Dragon New Warm Mountain I Believe In You
    As we would say on Discograffiti, this is a “hard five” and my favorite record of the year. This band is unstoppable right now. There’s not a bad song on it, and overall it’s just a really inspired, beautiful record. Has strong feelings of “human beings in a room playing beautifully together”

    The Weeknd – Dawn FM
    Big, glossy widescreen pop record that isn’t afraid to be idiosyncratic and weird. Ace guest production by Daniel Lopatin of Oneohtrix Point Never fame. This kind of thing is not usually my cup of tea but this is so, so well done

    The Smile – A Light For Attracting Attention
    A Radiohead record in all but name, and as good as a Radiohead record which means it’s awesome. This kind of slipped under the radar but it’s beautiful

    Weyes Blood – And In The Darkness, Hearts Aglow
    Some of my friends worked on this record. I couldn’t be happier for Natalie’s success, she’s the genuine article and she just keeps growing as a songwriter

    Wet Leg – s/t
    Fun factor off the charts, great fat sounding mix by Alan Moulder, it’s the kind of debut album that plays like a greatest hits

    Nice, JK47. Where can I find your old podcast, too? And also… what are the odds I can listen to you and Donnie Walsh talk about music over drinks while I’m out here?

    Dude, I would love to hang. I should be free this weekend other than Thursday if you’re around. Message me on Insta, I’m joekennedyjr on there. If you can’t find me that way, let me know and we’ll figure out something else.

    The podcast (Discograffiti) is available on all podcast platforms. I’m on all the episodes through Todd Rundgren, it’s like the first 35 or so.

    Sounds great, I will do that. Not sure if I’m heading up to LA this weekend, though. I am down in La Jolla and might just relax this weekend.

    Great recs. I like Cuffed up. Hitting a bunch of mid aughts erogenous zones.

    IQ is better on defense than Toney D. I think he is much better overall too.

    A lot of people have seemes unimpressed by Brunson this year. Before last night anyway.

    Getting to watch him every game is making this a qualitatively different season.

    It has been said that Brunson is really a combo guard, not a true point guard. While this might be true in the literal sense, there are “tweener” combo guards that are not particularly good at either traditional position, and “versatile” combo guards that are equally comfortable in and excellent at both roles. I think we have enough info to conclude that Brunson is the latter.

    I love that Niang’s nickname is “the minivan.”

    Major dose of Paul Reed tonight, I expect him to put on a shoe.

    Alan, in reference to your best of 2022 list, my wife and I totally fell for Reservation Dogs, maybe our favorite show of the year. The Patient is also really good, albeit highly disturbing

    “As I posted above, Julius having a .585 TS% on a 26+% usage seems to put him in pretty elite company in terms of salary. Even if he is not an attractive trade target, he’s giving the team their money’s worth. Since he’s a sunk cost, isn’t that a huge positive?”

    I strongly disagree. If Randle is playing better but we still can’t trade him, then literally all he’s doing is racking up marginal wins for us. I am aware you think we should not talk about that because the front office currently doesn’t view such wins as “marginal,” but if you’re asking me my personal opinion as to whether his play is a “huge positive” I’m going to answer with my honest opinion.

    This all changes if we can trade him of course, but I’m very skeptical of that because by both the eye-test and various numbers he’s decided to be the basketball equivalent of a DH this year.

    “I know he’s not Kai Jones or Jalen/keon Johnson, but isn’t it still an unexpected positive development?”

    I have enjoyed Cam’s play this year, but it objectively hasn’t moved the needle on him a ton as an asset. He has a 99 TS+ on very low usage. He’s shooting .327 from 3.

    I would much rather have a number of guys picked 19 or later in the 2021 daft, even if some of the ones you cherry picked haven’t looked good yet (though unlike Cam they still have loads of team control remaining).

    ” He’s posting career highs in points, assists, steals, and free throws per 36. Nearly everyone above him in AST% is on a max contract (exception: Haliburton 🙁 ) and he has a better AST/TOV ratio than all of them.”

    Brunson has been great. Everything we could’ve hoped for and more. But again, to what end are the wins he’s getting us serving? I think he has very high trade value, but the consensus (that I agree with) is that we’re not going to cash in on that. So what is the point?

    B Ball Paul has already locked down his out of market Sumner.

    I have reached the point of my Knicks fandom where I am willing to trade a few losses to get to watch Jalen posting people up.

    If Randle is playing better but we still can’t trade him, then literally all he’s doing is racking up marginal wins for us.

    the question than becomes – does a team’s win/loss record impact the value of its assets?

    I would assume yes, but, I don’t know…I don’t know what kind of wild spreadsheets each front office uses to evaluate talent in the league…

    more so, I don’t know the few folks within each club that decide what data really matters…

    I’ve learned a lot about basketball talent evaluation from this site…

    a lot of times we seem to mostly come to a consensus on particular players – but, they’re seem to be a bunch of different metrics/methods used to arrive to that point…

    thanks JK, sounds like I have some homework for the next couple of days…

    Some records I have enjoyed from this year:

    Big Thief – Dragon New Warm Mountain I Believe In You
    As we would say on Discograffiti, this is a “hard five” and my favorite record of the year. This band is unstoppable right now. There’s not a bad song on it, and overall it’s just a really inspired, beautiful record. Has strong feelings of “human beings in a room playing beautifully together”

    The Weeknd – Dawn FM
    Big, glossy widescreen pop record that isn’t afraid to be idiosyncratic and weird. Ace guest production by Daniel Lopatin of Oneohtrix Point Never fame. This kind of thing is not usually my cup of tea but this is so, so well done

    The Smile – A Light For Attracting Attention
    A Radiohead record in all but name, and as good as a Radiohead record which means it’s awesome. This kind of slipped under the radar but it’s beautiful

    Weyes Blood – And In The Darkness, Hearts Aglow
    Some of my friends worked on this record. I couldn’t be happier for Natalie’s success, she’s the genuine article and she just keeps growing as a songwriter

    Wet Leg – s/t
    Fun factor off the charts, great fat sounding mix by Alan Moulder, it’s the kind of debut album that plays like a greatest hits

    Geo, it’s a good question to which I don’t think there’s a clear answer.

    On one hand, in order to accumulate wins players have to play well, so if you’re accumulating them *some* players on your roster have to be increasing their value.

    On the other, a lot more goes into asset evaluation than raw production. For example even if Derrick Rose were playing really well for us this year, I don’t think he’d be viewed as a great asset because of his age.

    The flip side of that is less productive, younger players get valued higher than their raw production would lead you to believe because of team control and projection. Jalen Green would fetch way more on the trade market than Evan Fournier, even though Fournier might be the more productive player right this second. So asset value and win total have many ways of getting disconnected.

    The problem for the Knicks is they’ve accumulated wins largely via a “Brunson and Bums” formula so far, so there’s really only one guy on the roster who is seeing his stock rise via the wins and we’re not trading him.

    Same here
    But I’m drawing the line back in 2000!
    1965-2000
    35yrs of mostly pioneering music for post-modern digging!

    Interesting. I was 22 in 2000, so there’s too much music I’m attached to to draw the line there. I’m trying to think what I would be unwilling to give up…

    There’s a couple Daft Punk albums I wouldn’t want to not have. That first Strokes album. Funeral. Kid A. Ghostface Killah’s solo work. Spoon, Interpol, Deerhunter, D’Angelo, Robyn, Kendrick, Bowie’s last album.

    Can’t do it. It’s 2018 for me. I picked that year at random, but it makes sense. Last month I was in San Diego, and so many people were there for Bad Bunny. And I was like, “who’s Bad Bunny?” I listened to a couple songs, and I didn’t get it. So that’s it. My line in the sand starts with Bad Bunny.

    The only new music I’ve been into lately is that new Steve Lacy album, which is wildly creative.

    I’m going to listen to post 2000 Daft Punk, Bowie and Radiohead and even 2018 Judas Priest!! too but we talk about artists that started earlier than 2000.
    My “problems” are with those who started during the 21st century and sound to my ears less inventing, less hungry and less exciting than the older ones.
    Exceptions are always welcome but haven’t come across many…

    “I strongly disagree. If Randle is playing better but we still can’t trade him, then literally all he’s doing is racking up marginal wins for us. I am aware you think we should not talk about that because the front office currently doesn’t view such wins as “marginal,” but if you’re asking me my personal opinion as to whether his play is a “huge positive” I’m going to answer with my honest opinion.”

    It’s fine to have that opinion, and you can talk about it all you want, The reality is that a) yes, the FO doesn’t view those wins as “marginal” so the point is kind of moot, and b) they very well may view him as an integral part of a winning team as better pieces are acquired. In other words, the idea behind signing him to a lengthy extension wasn’t to trade him, it was to lock in a valuable piece long term.

    Besdes, that he’s probably not tradeable right now is in large part about fear of regression towards last year’s performance rather than being underwhelmed by what he’s currently doing, i.e it’s the length of the contract more than the number. So if you are “stuck with him” for that reason, wouldn’t it be better for him to be a reasonably efficient scorer on medium-high usage?

    Randle is clearly benefitting from having Brunson on the team. He’s clearly willing to hand over possessions to a better distributor/more efficient scorer. Why wouldn’t it follow that if they land another player that’s even better than Brunson that he wouldn’t maintain his value to the team by becoming option 2A or 3 rather than part of 1A/B/C? Because that’s what he’s getting paid like.

    “This all changes if we can trade him of course, but I’m very skeptical of that because by both the eye-test and various numbers he’s decided to be the basketball equivalent of a DH this year.””

    Well then we’re really in trouble because equally efficient/high usage Brunson also fits that definition. Of course, I don’t buy the analogy. We saw in the Denver game what he’s *capable of* on defense. He’s also consistently one of the best defensive rebounders in the league.

    In summary, if he can’t/won’t be traded, and will play 30+ mpg unless he gets hurt, what’s the best outcome to home for? Isn’t it something like what we’re seeing now?

    makes sense noble, time and place…

    reference julius specifically, there’s all this “formal” data, and then there’s their informal network of information passed around the league…

    pretty bright spotlight playing in new york, I have to imagine julius has a big question mark reference fit and performance potential on pretty much every team’s player’s profile…

    unless he’s a detriment to winning – which he had been and potentially can be – hard to imagine getting equal value for his “production” on the court…

    to his credit, at least dude knows he’s got some shit to work on…

    as of this moment, I think both him and thibs are here for at least the rest of this season…

    myself, i’m rooting for julius…it ain’t easy at times, if he can get his emotions under control, great potential…possibly excess value…

    regarding thibs…it’s whatever…

    I could definitely give a spin to a 21st century band named “Marginal Wins” if they had an album called “I wanna be your alpha dog”!

    “The problem for the Knicks is they’ve accumulated wins largely via a “Brunson and Bums” formula so far, so there’s really only one guy on the roster who is seeing his stock rise via the wins and we’re not trading him.”

    Clever!

    Brunson has actually been very inconsistent. His TS% is .673 in our 9 wins and .511 in our 9 losses. Randle’s splits are .597 and .571. Otherwise they’ve been quite similar. Both are lousy defenders, and both score better inside than from 3. And both have lousy on/off numbers. (hmm, who’s usually on the court with them?)

    Some of our “bums” have played pretty promising at times and if we manage to go on a hot winning streak we could extract some cryptoasset value while also being creative in trades.

    Example:
    Mitch-Hart-Sims
    Keep 2 trade One while he’s hot

    Similar? Seriously?

    Every high usage player is inconsistent in the same way also. If a guy is using a ton of possessions and plays badly, his team is more likely to lose. It’s just math.

    Problem #1 – RJ’s usage is too high given his consistently inconsistent shooting and low efficiency.

    Problem #2 – The defense has been poor

    I think we should take a serious look at Cam and Grimes together. That might improve the defense. Thibs is extremely unlikely to start that combo, but there should be ample opportunity to look at it. In fact, I think I’d really like to see Quick, Grimes, and Cam with Mitch or Sims behind them.

    “Similar? Seriously?

    Every high usage player is inconsistent in the same way also. If a guy is using a ton of possessions and plays badly, his team is more likely to lose. It’s just math.”

    Are you saying that the math does not say that they are similar overall?

    Player A: USG% 24.5, TS% .594
    Player B: USG% 26.5, TS% .585
    They are making roughly the same amount of FTs per 36 and their eFG%s are almost identical, i.e. Brunson’s FT% acounts for most of the difference in their TS%. They both score exactly 22.9 points per 36.

    Randle commits 2.6 more turnovers per 100 than Brunson, but gets 2.9 more offensive rebounds. The exceptional AST/TOV ratio is what really stands our for Brunson.

    And on defense, is one really worse than the other? Maybe for different reasons e.g. size/athleticism vs. awareness/motor, but neither is anywhere in the vicinity of consistently good.

    “ so there’s really only one guy on the roster who is seeing his stock rise via the wins and we’re not trading him.”

    I think Cam, Sims and Randle have raised their value, Grimes is about to shortly, and if Quick straightens his shot out a little, his will rise a lot because he’s doing everything else better.

    IMO Sims is silently becoming a hot ticket. He’s very athletic, high energy, switches well, guards multiple positions, and picks OK. He doesn’t have a lot of skill on offense, but like Mitch you have to watch him around the rim. I’d expect some calls on Sims before the deadline. I’d hang up.

    It’s both a difficult and interesting problem for Rose.

    It’s hard to know which of these young guys is going break out a bit and which will flounder. I think I’d keep them all unless an opportunity to clearly upgrade a position presents itself.

    It might make sense to just trade Rose for an expiring contract and use whatever we get to move Fournier for an expiring. Then release the salaries we get back.

    I remember thinking it was a big mistake for the Kings to max Fox and trade Hali, but De’A-A-Ron is tearing it up!

    “It might make sense to just trade Rose for an expiring contract”

    Did u mean for a draft asset? Otherwise that makes no sense since Rose’s contract is essentially expiring…

    “neither is anywhere in the vicinity of consistently good.”

    The only players that are consistently good are the ones with a broad enough range of high level skills they pretty much can’t be stopped. That’s what makes those guys special. You can’t take away their strengths and neutralize them. They can do too many things well. The most you can do is make it a little tougher.

    For the mortals, a lot depends on the matchups and game plans.

    “Did u mean for a draft asset? Otherwise that makes no sense since Rose’s contract is essentially expiring…”

    Yes.

    I wasn’t clear. I was implying that we’d get some kid of draft pick(s) back that we could use to move Fournier, but we’ll get salary back too. Then just buy that guy out.

    “strat, just to be clear, I was talking about their deeefense.”

    To be honest, I haven’t been playing close enough attention to the details of all our defensive deficiencies. I’m not sure I have much of an opinion other than the net of it hasn’t been good. I’ve mostly been enjoying Cam and Quick and lately Sims. They are at least getting better. Now Grimes is back.

    Z-Man – I attempted to live blog that game. Paul Reed, who I believe you dismissed as a backup, broke the Nets over his knee like a character from Mortal Kombst.

    Melton was also amazing.

    Brunson’s ast/tov ratio is in fact exactly what makes him much better than Randle. And Randle is a horrific defender at an important position.

    As for Knox, I always knew he had this in him

    Problem #1 – RJ’s usage is too high given his consistently inconsistent shooting and low efficiency.

    Problem #2 – The defense has been poor

    I think we should take a serious look at Cam and Grimes together. That might improve the defense. Thibs is extremely unlikely to start that combo, but there should be ample opportunity to look at it. In fact, I think I’d really like to see Quick, Grimes, and Cam with Mitch or Sims behind them.

    I would really like to see what this team looks like for a month without RJ Barrett. It seems like some guys are exempt from Thibs’ doghouse, and he’s one of them. But I think we might like this team a whole lot more if he sat. And it’s probably good for his development, too. Let him fight for his playing time like Obi & Quick.

    I don’t remember discussing Paul Reed, he was a 58th pick in the 2020 draft…not sure what context I would have debated him. But he’s averaging 3.3 pts per 36 on a .313 TS% before today’s game, so…

    I think defense is similarly important at every position, including at PG, as we saw last year with Kemba Walker. That said, I didn’t mean to imply that they were similar *players* as they clearly have much different roles. But they do have very similar shooting efficiency numbers, which are derived in largely the same way, and they have similar types of games relative to their peers with similar usage at their respective positions. Beyond that, in general I associate PGs with assists and point of attack defense and PFs with rebounds and interior defense. I agree that PG is the more important position, and so do most metrics I guess. So I would go as far as to say that Brunson is the more important and more effective player, and more essential to winning. But Randle’s shooting efficiency has been more consistent across wins and losses.

    Z–man says:
    November 23, 2022 at 00:21
    I ALWAYS KNEW KEVIN KNOX WOULD BE GOOD!!!

    This made actually look up Knox’s line. He played 25 minutes, made eight of eleven shots for seventeen points, had eight rebounds, an assist and a steal and was +12 in a game where the Pistons beat Denver with Jokic by two points. That’s pretty impressive.

    I truly wish Kevin Knox all success. Frank too. Both of those low-skill/high-character guys should have been late first rounders at age 22 and should be on tiny rookie-scale deals. Instead they were gifted $20+M each by some moronic FO.

    Re: Paul Reed, I should add that anyone who goes off against the Nets is a friend of mine!

    Anyone notice that at 9-7, Dallas is right where we want them to be, in the play-in? The last thing we want is for them to have a realistic shot at #1-10…the 8th seed would put them \in close but no cigar territory.

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