CBS Sports: Knicks’ Tom Thibodeau says team will prioritize ‘shooting and our offense’ in offseason

Voted for 2, slightly edging out 1. Obviously have no idea but I suspect the lesser likely outcomes are 3 (since that would mean they did no manoeuvres which would be a departure from last year), and 0 (since that would require a somewhat unique opportunity).

The endgame for the Knicks seems to be landing star talent, so I don’t see how we pick at 19 and 21. We either trade up for a falling impact prospect, or we trade out for a 2022 1RP so we keep our trade ammunition. I think we pick once in the top 33.

In other news, Tim Bontemps on The Hoop Collective podcast said he’s keeping his eye on the situation with SGA in OKC. I highly doubt anything actually happens on that front, but that’s the guy I’d trade the house for. I’d be willing to give up all of our excess picks plus Julius Randle if it meant pairing IQ, SGA, and RJ Barrett for a decade. I also loved the tidbit in Berman’s article about Brunson and how he can force the Mavs to trade him by not signing an extension in Dallas. Brunson to the Knicks would solve a lot of problems.

Thibs wants wings, probably the spicy kind. And so do I.

Hubert: Or we could just make all our picks so that when we do land a star, it won’t be him and a bunch of scrubs.

I don’t disagree with you at all. If it were up to me, I’m drafting replacements for Nerlens Noel and Reggie Bullock this summer because who has time to spend $20M a year on two bench guys that shouldn’t be playing more than 15 minutes in a playoff game? I just don’t think the Knicks value that mid roster depth over having draft assets to dangle in a trade.

I think its gonna be difficult to turn 19, 21 and 32 into something that would outweigh just making those picks straight up, draft wise at least. Also i think teams are just gonna save us from ourselves by not taking those picks for a top 10 selection.

I’m hoping for 3..only because I like the fits of Bouknight, Duarte, and Bassey. I also like Jalen Johnson at SF as a backup plan. I feel like the team has enough assets to make that happen without giving up a tremendous amount of them. We have Knox and 2 second rounders to offer up in this draft..plus another Dallas 1st- which KP aside, will probably be another late 1st.

I like Shariffe Cooper too..alot.

also to put it another way… we will be capped out after next summer and we only have at most 5 rotation pieces on multi-year deals… every roster spot not on a multi-year deal will require an exception or presumably an even later draft pick… ie. it’s going to get a lot harder to fill after next season…

we basically have two offseasons to jam as many players into the cap as possible before extensions and big free agents kick in… that’s why there is some urgency to these decisions… these picks are valuable precisely because they’re at worst cheap roster spots and at best key rotation pieces… they’re efficient uses of cap space…

I’d have to be believe that there is someone in this front office who realizes it..

I was curious about the possibility of landing a star with one of our picks, so I checked the All-NBA teams from the last 10 years to see how many guys were drafted 19th or later. It’s pretty slim pickings. Of 150 All-NBA slots over that time, only 26 went to players drafted 19th or lower.

This is the list: Rondo, David Lee (!!!), Tony Parker (3), Marc Gasol (3), DeAndre Jordan (3), Lowry, Butler (4), Draymond (2), Isaiah Thomas, Gobert (3), Jokic (3), Siakim.

Deeefense:
If the Knicks select 3 players in the draft I’d consider it a major disappointment.

Everyone knows they need a legitimate #1 option, a PG, and more shooting. The hardest of the 3 to get is the #1 option. So that should be the priority while they still have the assets that might good enough to pull it off.Of course if they could land a #1 option that’s also a PG that would solve 2 problems.

If they make 3 picks that means there were no #1 options available for a trade and there was no one in the draft they could move up to get that might develop into a #1 option or at least solve the PG problem once and for all.

That’s a disappointment.It may not be anyone’s fault, but it’s a fail.It means they are kicking the tires on a few players hoping one or two develop into solid rotation players because the expectation outside the lottery is not an all star or #1 option.Luck is not a plan.

Great point. But I believe in this coaching staff so much that I believe we can pull off an updated version of LB’s Pistons. And by updated, I mean more shooting in the rotation. If Quickley can run the offense half as good as Billups did next season, we will be well on our way. Let’s not forget that Billups wasn’t a penetrator, nor was he a high assist guy. But he was a damn good PG. But I’m telling you, the key to pulling it off with Thibs at the helm, is keeping Mitch. Of course he’s gotta stay healthy and be reasonably priced, but we NEED him in the middle of our defense- more than we need Noel. I wanna keep both though. If we draft Bassey, that would make me feel better about losing Noel due to cost.

There is also the more complex calculus of whether getting non all-star level but very good players facilitated trades for all-stars.

I

Deeefense: If they make 3 picks that means there were no #1 options available for a trade and there was no one in the draft they could move up to get that might develop into a #1 option or at least solve the PG problem once and for all.

That’s a disappointment. It may not be anyone’s fault, but it’s a fail.

Tell you what, I don’t want you teaching MY kid. Besides a suite of faulty presumptions, the one you skip completely over is whether anyone is willing to trade down. At least at a cost that isn’t prohibitive.

I don’t personally believe that they were looking to trade up to nab Obi, but if you believe that, and you believe that there are GMs who believe that there is similar value at 19 and 21 as there is at, say, 10-15, then a trade-up seems realistic if they are targeting a specific player. That’s what PHX did for Mikal, a deal I thought was dumb at the time but turned out to be a huge win. It still comes down to talent evaluation and a bit of good luck.

I wonder if they could package #19 with our 2 2nds and a future 2nd to move up a few spots.

I also wonder if they would throw Mitch into a move- up deal…

Raven:
I Tell you what, I don’t want you teaching MY kid. Besides a suite of faulty presumptions, the one you skip completely over is whether anyone is willing to trade down. At least at a cost that isn’t prohibitive.

Of course if no one is willing to trade down we can’t go that route. Do I even have to say that? lmao

The point is we know exactly what the team needs to take the next step. If possible we want the highest probability and certainty possible of achieving that.

An established player is as close as you can get.

If we can trade up and there’s someone we really like up there, that would very good too.

The least favorable is drafting 3 players because we couldn’t come up with a better move.

I voted 2. Didn’t they punt on a third pick last year?

Chuckled to see Cuban’s “KP is who he is” quote.

Z-man: I also wonder if they would throw Mitch into a move- up deal…

Please Leon, don’t do it.

an rj barrett stan account: I also loved the tidbit in Berman’s article about Brunson and how he can force the Mavs to trade him by not signing an extension in Dallas. Brunson to the Knicks would solve a lot of problems.

Yeah, getting Brunson would be a great move. Let’s do it, Leon. 🙂

Meaningless without context. What if the 3 players are…good? What if they have the guy they pick at 19 ranked higher than the guy drafted at, say, 14?

What if they all suck as bad as Frank? 🙂

We are working with needs and probabilities.

IMO the priority is landing a star. IMO, the best strategy is the one most likely to land a star. IMO, the best possible scenario is finding a disgruntled star still in his 20s that wants out and packaging picks to get him. Then I know exactly what I am getting qualitatively, if he fits, if he’s young enough to remain productive for the duration of his contract, etc.. If an attractive deal is not available, the next best option is trading up. If trading up is not available or there’s no one up there we want badly enough, then draft 3 players and pray. Everything is on the table, but some options are more likely to take us to the next level quickly and for long enough to matter.

for such a thin free agent class there’s a surprising lack of rumors of where derozan might land

IMO, the best possible scenario is finding a disgruntled star still in his 20s that wants out and packaging picks to get him. Then I know exactly what I am getting qualitatively, if he fits, if he’s young enough to remain productive for the duration of his contract, etc..

Players like this cost A LOT. Like, every possible pick you can trade away kind of A LOT. You’re not getting a disgruntled star with the 19, 21 and 32 picks. You’d have to throw in pretty much every asset you have.

If an attractive deal is not available, the next best option is trading up.

Trading up for the sake of trading up, in this particular draft, with the particular picks we hold, is a bad idea. You’re only going to move up a few slots with the 19, 21 and 32 picks, you’re not getting into the high lottery with that package. It has been widely commented that after you get past the high lottery that this is a deep draft, with not a lot of difference between, say, pick 10 and pick 20.

Usually I follow the draft much more closely, because usually the Knicks are terrible and are drafting 9th overall, so I’m praying that somebody decent falls to us. This year’s draft is a little harder to follow, since we’re actually not terrible and we’re picking late, several times. In all of the mocks I look at, there are desirable players on the board when our turn comes up, and there aren’t too many guys where I’m saying “damn I wish we could have that guy but he projects to go around 10” or something.

This is the year to sit tight, draft some high floor guys with our picks, coach them up, and build our depth. It’s a good chance to get a couple of cost-controlled rotation pieces who fit in with what Thibs is doing. I’ll be disappointed if we don’t roster all three.

You ever have a contrarian friend who doesn’t like something that’s universally liked? Like somebody who hates The Beatles or ice cream or something like that? That’s Strat and the NBA draft, and players on rookie contracts in general. Unless they were Phil Jackson’s pet projects, those guys he likes.

It doesn’t have to make sense, it only has to fit in with the “don’t draft 18 year olds who won’t be good for six years anyway” narrative. That’s why you get statements that are basically “we should get rid of these icky draft picks and trade them for some unspecified superstar.” It’s the concept of draft picks and young players that is bothersome to him.

The way I see it, there are only four players in this draft it’d be an absolute no-brainer to trade all 3 picks for: Suggs, Green, Cade, and Mobley. Needless to say that package isn’t in the stratosphere of what would be necessary to get one of those guys, and there probably isn’t even an RJ-less package we could put together to do so if you include our other assets.

Reasonable people can disagree about the wisdom of trading all 3 for someone in the Barnes/Kuminga/Wagner/Moody/Bouknight/Giddey group. 19, 21, and 32 is still almost certainly not enough to get us here anyway but FWIW only Barnes would be pretty obviously worth it to me (fit be damned). I personally am high on Giddey and would probably pull the trigger for him too, but I’m far from sure about that. There are players in our range I could easily see being better than any of the others.

Even for Barnes and Giddey, the price starts feeling steep if you start including other assets in the package.

Even if your single-minded focus is landing a star, the obvious thing to root for is the Knicks nailing as many picks as possible to avoid the “new car losing 50% of its value once it leaves the lot” effect as our picks ripen into actual players. If we get 3 rotation level guys in this draft, that puts us in a better position to eventually get a star.

thenoblefacehumper: The way I see it, there are only four players in this draft it’d be an absolute no-brainer to trade all 3 picks for: Suggs, Green, Cade, and Mobley. Needless to say that package isn’t in the stratosphere of what would be necessary to get one of those guys, and there probably isn’t even an RJ-less package we could put together to do so if you include our other assets.

Agreed. One way they might try to pursuit would be to trade our 3 picks for a pick in the 8 to 10 range, and then package that pick with the 2023 DAL pick to the Cavs for the 3rd pick. They seem undecided and dumb enough to do it. But, like you, i just don’t see any team in the 8 to 10 range giving up the pick for our package.

***Donnie, was JK47 two for two?***

He could have added The Wire to that too.

But not building through the NBA draft, even I’m not that lame.

Let’s not overthink this. Just draft Sharife Cooper, Duarte, Springer, Christopher or Mann and Bassey or Queta. Then call it a day.

Being at 275 during the off season isn’t the worst thing in the world. There’s no way he’ll be able to keep that weight up all season long and will likely drop down 15 pounds around training camp time.

Rambling a bit here, but Lillard is signed for 4 more seasons and to my knowledge there’s no opt-outs/non-guaranteed years in there. So I’m not sure what a “list” would even mean in this context.

Could be a fascinating situation when it comes to testing the extent of player empowerment.

What does a reasonably competitive RJ-less offer look like?

Mitch, Obi, Knox if they want him, our first 3 2021 picks, a 2022 swap, both of our 2023 firsts?

It’s tough to say where exactly I’d draw the line because I think the timetables are simply not all that compatible, so even below market packages feel like too much. I definitely think we have to keep RJ since the entire point of this would be to pair Lillard with the good players we already have.

This will not be well-received by some people but I kind of hope we lose these sweepstakes. I absolutely love watching Lillard and he’s truly great, but I just don’t see the path to contention for a core of Lillard, Randle, Barrett (assuming we could keep him, which is not clear), and…not much else.

Obviously this is a very narrow and literal take on what prioritizing shooting in the draft looks like… reading the tea leaves it doesn’t seem like there are many trade up opportunities… Bouknight i left out since he’s likely out of reach for us in the top 10 but he’s one of the only scenarios where trading up nets us someone who doesn’t have too many shooting concerns…

Moody is the other… and if there’s someone we’re trading up for this is probably the guy… he’s projected outside the top 10.. he has defensive upside.. has size at the wing and is a pretty good shooter… his shot is probably a bit overrated as he’s far from automatic… but for someone who fits the mold of all these public comments and rumors this guy fits it all…

other than that i think everyone else has a chance to fall to us… so if we are really prioritizing guys who can shoot then we should stay put since there’s plenty of guys who can do that and also has a diverse skillset… Mann has true 3 level scoring ability.. Dosunmu can play point.. Springer has athleticism and defense.. Duarte has all sorts of catch and shoot versatility…

you do sacrifice some upside… but it’s not like Moody is some sort of shoe-in to be an allstar… Dosunmu.. Mann.. Springer.. Wagner and Hyland all have decent enough upside where it’s kind of marginal between them all.. and i would absolutely take any two of those guys over Moody …

We have 2 second rounders this year and a bunch in 2923, which is the double draft. I gotta think the play is to attach some of those to our firsts to move both first rounders up a bit. I can’t see us not making at least 2 picks this year. Even if Thibs wants to compete now, we have A bunch of vets to replace.

You have Rose, Elf, Burks, Bullocks, Noel and Taj who all played significant minutes this year. Elf is replaced already by Vildoza. But not all of the rest are coming back. Most likely we bring back three of them, maybe four. There’s also Frank, who is not coming back for sure.

Thibs can want to compete now all he wants. He’s not the GM. Rose has to know we need to keep adding cheap players and the draft is the best way to do that. And we can for sure find rotation players later in the first round and could even get lucky and find a star.

I like the Beatles but think they’re overrated.

As musicians yes, but otherwise this is like saying Chamberlain was overrated because he missed free throws.

JK47: You ever have a contrarian friend who doesn’t like something that’s universally liked? Like somebody who hates The Beatles or ice cream or something like that? That’s Strat and the NBA draft, and players on rookie contracts in general. Unless they were Phil Jackson’s pet projects, those guys he likes.

It doesn’t have to make sense, it only has to fit in with the “don’t draft 18 year olds who won’t be good for six years anyway” narrative. That’s why you get statements t

I love the Beatles and ice cream. 🙂

I used to like the draft too, but when teams started drafting 18-19 year old kids and giving out extensions before I could tell if the player was even worth it I realized I should adjust my thinking.

The one major exception is when you have a very old team whose window is obviously closed. Then I think you should clean house, get some picks, tank, and start from scratch for 1 year. Then you should immediately start the march forward using every avenue possible to get better in a logical way.

That’s true regardless of whether Phil made the pick, Mills made them, or Leon Rose makes them.

Once we have a kid though, I’m very patient in development because a lot of kids don’t start blossoming until 24-25. Most players peak in their late 20s. It feels kind of foolish to use an asset to draft a player, try to develop him for a few years, and then bail out before you know what the finished product is even going to look like.

Deefense,

I agree that it is difficult to know whether to resign a young player after their rookie contract when drafted so young. That’s far more of an issue with lottery picks who are supposed to be franchise/Max players or right below. With picks in the late first round, you’re looking for rotation players and that is often where you end up drafting older players anyways. So I would think you’d be excited to make our picks this year. We had success bc we had a deep team of good role players but we can’t duplicate that every year with vets alone. Make those first round picks this year!

swiftandabundant:
Deefense,

I agree that it is difficult to know whether to resign a young player after their rookie contract when drafted so young. That’s far more of an issue with lottery picks who are supposed to be franchise/Max players or right below. With picks in the late first round, you’re looking for rotation players and that is often where you end up drafting older players anyways. So I would think you’d be excited to make our picks this year. We had success bc we had a deep team of good role players but we can’t duplicate that every year with vets alone. Make those first round picks this year!

IMO, we should be trying to take the next step up where we are confident we are a solid playoff team even if Randle doesn’t exactly duplicate this last year. The goal is to get out of the 1st round next year. More or different role players are not going to get that done. We need a serious upgrade at at least one position. I don’t think we are going to find that in the draft unless we can move up (and have a target) or make a trade/sign a high level free agent. There’s no reason to pussyfoot around with more role players. We’ll be able to find role players.

We’ll be able to find role players.

continued

If drafting 3 players is the only viable option given the availability out there, so be it. That doesn’t mean I’m going to be happy about it. I want use to be more aggressive if we can.

There’s also no reason not to make those picks bc we have cap some too so we can bring back some vets or bring in some new ones and make picks to develop young players. We’re in a perfect spot as long as we continue to be patient.

You do not bring in Damian Lillard if you do not have a legit 2nd star coming in with him, and you absolutely do not trade RJ Barrett to bring him in. If you can get a trade done without RJ Barrett, it’s all about if you believe RJ has a Bam Adebayo type leap in him and if you can move Julius if you don’t believe he’s a legit 2nd banana.

Then I think you should clean house, get some picks, tank, and start from scratch for 1 year.

The apocalypse is upon us

I want to get better as quickly as we can in a logical way without giving out terrible contracts.

See, it always comes back to this. Yes, ideally we would get a lot better very quickly without having to do anything reckless.

It feels almost patronizing to explain this at such a basic level, but whatever: in a market in which productive basketball players are a finite, zero-sum resource and there are 30 teams competing for them, it is extremely difficult to do that. Nobody is going to make a trade with us if they think it helps us get better quickly without much in the way of risk on our part, because why the hell would they do that?

For this reason, “we should get a lot better quickly and not do anything stupid in the process” is not a recommendation or a vision. It’s a bland description of the optimal goal for every team in the NBA that almost all teams will necessarily deviate from to some extent (putting aside exceptional situations like the Heatles, etc.).

This deviation can take the form of sacrificing the “quickly” part and building an asset chest over a period of years, or sacrificing the “not do anything stupid part” and capping out on a sub-contender.

If you truly think there’s some way we can have the best of all worlds, you need to say what it is in order to be doing anything other than describing the obvious goal of every NBA team.

I voted “2”, but I think most of that was Knicks PTSD speaking. As I’ve said before, trading up more than a few slots seems unlikely to me because when I look at the teams drafting at the top, I can’t see any team likely to make that sort of deal. So taking all three picks seems quite possible, but I still don’t have 100% faith in the front office, hence my vote.

I think our draft picks are actually more valuable to teams without good picks than to the teams that already have them. Portland is an example. If the Knicks don’t want three rookies, they could trade a pick for a player and a future pick. I don’t like the idea, but I can see it happening. There are have to be teams out there that are suffering financially and want the low costs if a rookie more than they want one of their future picks.

i love jalen brunson… i’m not sure if i do a mitch deal for him.. but that’s only because i’m warming up to dinwiddie and drafting a prospect behind him…

brunson from an offensive perspective is basically a perfect fit for thibs and this offense… one of the best in the pnr last season… also great in isolation… and great catch and shoot… and i’m pretty sure with more minutes he would breakout to close to allstar level play…

all that said… mitch is a great defender both in drop and switch coverages and has good value on the offensive end… he’s limited like most centers but as we saw he’s a fair bit more valuable than noel… other than getting a guy who does all that with a good 3pt shot … mitch brings more than most…

on top of all that if we plan on contending we need someone to guard embiid and mitch does it better than most… that gives him the edge imo because there arent a lot of centers in the league that can stay on the court in as many matchups as mitch can…. for our defense that’s important..

in a vacuum brunson is probably better.. but the immediate market favors mitch… mitch’s new weight does make me nervous tho…

Atlanta’s ability to play defense with Young & Williams as the backcourt has shocked me.

Edit: Young is clearly hurting. They may need to protect him from himself.

All four of the Beatles were brilliant musicians. Paul McCartney is probably the greatest rock bass player of all time, George Harrison as a slide player alone is a wonderfully emotive guitarist, Ringo has a flawless, wide pocket that is almost impossible to correctly emulate, and Lennon, the weakest musician of the four, also had incredible feel and touch. Try to play the Travis-picking chord changes of “Julia” as seamlessly as Lennon then get back to me about how they were overrated as musicians.

Bogdanovic has been pretty bad all through the playoffs (3-16 tonight), if he’s not hitting his shots the Hawks have no chance vs the Bucks

Even with Bogdonovic’s struggles, the Hawks were winning until Trae got hurt. When he scores at all three levels, the Hawks are formidable. When he can’t score, the Hawks can’t win.

I’m not sure the Bucks win if Trae didn’t get hurt, or even if a visibly limping Trae didn’t come back in.

players will def skip workouts if they get a first rd promise and i’m pretty sure that’s what’s happening here… cam thomas and isaiah jackson also withdrew from the combine and same thing probably happened with them..

Yeah, first round promises are definitely things that affect player’s actions, but certainly not second round promises.

Love seeing JK’s defense of the Beatles as musicians. That’s not to say that I completely agree, I think there are musicians on every instrument that are technically superior…McCartney might not be technically better Stanley Clarke or Entwistle or Flea or Burton, but the melodic choices and the technical execution of them are second to none, and as you said, very hard to duplicate. The little guitar riff on Get Back is a prime example. Not technically difficult but in the context of that song, perfection. Same with Paul’s bass lines in Come Together.

It’s the songwriting and production that sets them apart, but they were outstanding technical musicians with the ability to make brilliant choices without showboating.

I’m fine with us not getting any of those “promise” guys. My ideal draft would be trading up to 14 with the Warriors (17 and 32) to get Giddey and then taking Springer at 21. Probably won’t happen, but that’s who I like thus far. I do also like McBride if Springer isn’t there.

The Beatles had an excellent mid range game.

If somehow Duarte dropped to 32, sign me up. It’s possible Duarte got a 2nd rd promise and the promise included certain contract terms. 2nd round contracts don’t have deal structures if I remember correctly, so he could actually get paid more than a late 1st in theory. Only real risk is getting taken 31 and signed to non-guarnteed.

…

How big was Ringo’s butt? -Phil Jackson

Duarte at 32 would be a godsend but I wouldnt risk it if we really liked him. Would be one of my prime targets at 19 or 21

Duarte at 32 would be very nice, but that’s what the combine is for, to get you to a higher pick. It’d be complete nonsense to forego the combine for a 2nd rd promise.

who knew that diabetes medicine causes sun sensitivity, how does shit like that even work???

one of these days i should probably check out all the fucked up side effects from the 1,000 or so pills i take each day…i get why people rush to retirement so often – it takes a lot of extra time just to clean the house and keep yourself alive…

ugh, i’m aging one painful lesson at a time…

The Lakers promised Mitch they would take him in 2018 and that worked out pretty well for the Knicks. The idea of drafting a 24 year old in the 1st round makes me nauseous but if we can get him at 32 it wouldn’t be the end of the world.

Ringo has a flawless, wide pocket that is almost impossible to correctly emulate

JK47, I am curious what you mean by “wide pocket”. Could you explain it in a way a non musician like me would understand?

Let me guess.

I think “wide pocket” means the ability for a drummer to leave space/beats in between when they actually drum yet still keep the rhythm?

@TheSteinLine
The Knicks’ Julius Randle was “right there” for an Olympic roster spot, @usabasketball executive director Jerry Colangelo said.

Kevin Love’s international experience was key in his selection, Colangelo said. Love, Draymond Green and Kevin Durant are previous gold medalists.

Would have been nice to have Julius there trying to recruit dudes. On the other hand, this gives him another long summer to obsessively work on improving his game. The last one of those seemed to work out pretty well for us.

JK47: All four of the Beatles were brilliant musicians. Paul McCartney is probably the greatest rock bass player of all time, George Harrison as a slide player alone is a wonderfully emotive guitarist, Ringo has a flawless, wide pocket that is almost impossible to correctly emulate, and Lennon, the weakest musician of the four, also had incredible feel and touch. Try to play the Travis-picking chord changes of “Julia” as seamlessly as Lennon then get back to me about how they were overrated as musicians.

100% this. Are they virtuosos? No, none. But that’s not what rock music is about. The Velvet Underground is and will always be a better band than Dream Theater, even if John Petrucci can play more notes in one song than Reed’s band can play in a whole album.

There are certain exceptional musicians whose technical proficiency allows them to access and express elevated emotional ideas — Stevie Wonder and Prince come to mind — but that proficiency is not at all a requirement for most rock and pop acts. Likewise, you don’t have to be a musician to appreciate great music. It’s about creating a world, and sometimes the most beautiful worlds are the simplest ones. No one should ever complain that a Black Flag or Sex Pistols song doesn’t have enough augmented chords or polyrhythms in it. It’s about the attitude, the perspectives, the emotional world created through sound.

The Beatles were an organic rags-to-riches story, going from a local band to a global phenomenon by powers outside of their control. And then they took the early rockabillly/skiffle/ballad stuff and rejected it, taking enough LSD to kill a horse, and invented entirely new ways of writing and recording music that are emulated to this day. There is no pop music as we know it without Revolver and Sgt. Pepper and Abbey Road.

Never been into the Beatles myself

No one should ever complain that a Black Flag or Sex Pistols song doesn’t have enough augmented chords or polyrhythms in it. It’s about the attitude, the perspectives, the emotional world created through sound.

Greg Ginn is one of my favorite musicians. GREAT guitar player.

This is interesting to me because I’ve heard lots of people over the years be dismissive of Ringo’s musicianship relative to the rest of the band. A friend in college used to say stuff like, “Man, can you only imagine what The Beatles would have sounded like with Ginger Baker?” I’m generally not expert enough on this stuff to be able to tell things beyond my feeling about each song as an overall piece of music.

this spain/croatia match is crazy…

oh…and Beatles rule…

pepper: this spain/croatia match is crazy…

Croatia did what we couldn’t yesterday. 🙁
I’m only following this one on LiveScore, but saw the first goal. Super funny. 😛

JK47: I can think of few other bands who achieved this uncanny chemistry– the Stones at their Exile On Main Street prime. The Band on their first few albums. The Clash. It’s rare.

Maybe Led Zeppelin also?

cybersoze: Croatia did what we couldn’t yesterday. 🙁

no offense…they kept calling Portugal an “aging squad”…might be time to give the young guys a shot…

TheClashFan: I discovered The Clash in 1982, and they immediately struck me as a sort of the punk version of the Beatles in how their music changed over the space of 5-6 years. (…) I loved Johnny Ramone, Steve Jones, etc.

It’s nice to have a fellow punk here at KB. I discovered them all a little later, as in 82 i wasn’t even 10. 😛
Do you know a band called G.B.H.? They’re british and mostly known for their punk songs, but i had an album called “A fridge too far” that was a clear evolution in their sound, liked it a lot at the time, but i guess punk folks weren’t ready for evolution. LOL

cybersoze: It’s nice to have a fellow punk here at KB. I discovered them all a little later, as in 82 i wasn’t even 10. 😛
Do you know a band called G.B.H.? They’re british and mostly known for their punk songs, but i had an album called “A fridge too far” that was a clear evolution in their sound, liked it a lot at the time, but i guess punk folks weren’t ready for evolution. LOL

I was 19 when I discovered punk/new wave/etc. Had to get to college to even be able to hear The Ramones or Sex Pistols’ songs. Supposedly, it all “sucked,” and the musicians couldn’t play, etc. Then, I heard “Never Mind the Bollocks”…

Yes, heard of G.B.H., but I was never much up on the Brit punks bands beyond the Pistols and Clash, to be honest. Also, stuff like Gang of Four, Joy Division that you could hear on UT college radio in the early 80’s. Even The local indie music community had limits on what you were able to actually hear at the time.

OTOH, I found tons of 80’s American punk and indie bands. What a great era for rock music. The book “Our Band Could Be Your Life” is a good starting point for this. By ’82, the “punk” scene was already pretty diverse when I discovered it, at least here in Knoxville.

TheClashFan: The book “Our Band Could Be Your Life” is a good starting point for this.

Added to my wishlist, thanks for the tip. 🙂 Oh, and btw, only discovered Gang of Four in the 2010s, can you believe it? And i love their sound, been listening to them on Spotify for some years now. 😉

Alan:
Oh my, this Scottie Pippen video from the Dan Patrick Show where he calls out the Kukoc play as racially motivated, then doesn’t back down when Patrick asks if that means he’s calling Phil a racist

Offshoot of a cultural moral panic, and way to stay at least fleetingly relevant.

BEN R, 100 percent with you on this one.

Even if we bring back most of the vets on big one year deals, there’s still plenty of room on the roster for 2 rookies plus Villadoza. Frank won’t be back. Knox could be gone and we had dudes like Pinson who never played. Even if the rookies we pick don’t play much the goal should be developing them to replace Burks, Noel, Rose, Bullocks, Taj in the next few seasons.

Plus rookies don’t lose value from picks if they’re late first rounders that do well. Sure, Knox and Frank lost their value vs. what the value of their lotto picks would have been. But Mitch and IQ are worth more as players than they were as picks. So if we make good selections and develop them, those players could be thrown into a star trade next year or the year after.

The goal should be replacing the production of the vets with cheaper young players with upside.

But Mitch and IQ are worth more as players than they were as picks.

Right, this is a point that’s often overlooked. If you nail a late first rounder or second rounder, the whole analogy of the car leaving the showroom goes out the window.

So…do we continue a slow build & use all three picks or do we just go for fences. Middle of the road approach is a pathway to mediocrity, IMO.

~$50M – 60M in cap space, plethora of picks and decent young talent, (Mitch, RJ, IQ), – can this be turned into an LAC and Brooklyn situation 2.0, just in reverse? – if I’m Dame, why not reach out to a free agent or even someone on an expiring to ask them if they want to come join Randle and myself in NYC? We do have elite specialist type supporting cast.

If yes, whose games are complementary? – Dame and Kawhi? Dame and Beal? Dame and Simmons?

Signing a worthy max free agent alone is history. Nowadays ballers pair up. That’s facts!

Early Bird:
I think with musicians at jk47’s level (or any expert in their area) he has a concrete understanding of what the rest of us only understand in the abstract. He picks up on nuance that we don’t and I find people who have that expertise have more appreciation for what people in their field do that laypeople dismiss.

Works best with arts or other subjective stuff because basketball a player can have all sorts of elite skills and add nuances to their moves, but at the end of the day they need to make the bucket.

Yeah, that’s the interesting thought project, isn’t it? The open questions would be whether there are people capable of seeing, say, basketball with the same insight that JK brings to music. My answer to that would be yes, just as there are people capable of seeing movies more deeply.

The counterargument, of course, is But, what about data?? and it’s certainly a fair counter but my response would be to imagine the hypothetical world that will inevitably arrive, in which AI is able to “see” music the way JK can, or even “better,” and ascribe “reasons” and “data” that explain why it sounds like it does and moves the brain like it moves the brain and then people start generating “metrics” based on that data. In various bullshit sessions over the years, I’ve occasionally suggested that it’s impossible for one person to second guess another’s pure vision — IOW if someone looks at a rock and says, “I see a flower,” we can’t conclusively disprove that even though we know it’s false, because we don’t know exactly how their faculties of perception are working and the picture they’re painting for the person. Those bullshit sessions happened years before I’d even heard of something like the Singularity, Personal perception will one day be visible and subject to outside ratification. If someone says,…

cybersoze: Added to my wishlist, thanks for the tip. 🙂 Oh, and btw, only discovered Gang of Four in the 2010s, can you believe it? And i love their sound, been listening to them on Spotify for some years now. 😉

My 21 year-old son also really likes early Gang of Four. Sad about Andy Gill passing ins 2020.

OTOH, neither of my sons are Knicks fans….perhaps wisely.

Ben R: Micic

I like your plan. Just adding the information that to sign Micic we’d have to trade for him with OKC.

“The Serbian swingman was originally selected by the 76ers with the No. 52 pick in the 2014 draft. His rights were acquired by Oklahoma City in December (2020) as part of a multi-player deal.”
“Micic wouldn’t be an NBA free agent. Oklahoma City currently holds his draft rights, so he’d have to sign with the Thunder unless they trade his rights to another team.”

Did OKC really asked for him, or was he just a throw-in in the Horford for Danny Green deal? And the guy proceeded to win the Euroleague MVP!? What were the odds?

it’s pretty cool, some of you are at your very best when not speaking basketball…

i completely intend this to be a compliment – of course…

i think the plausible guy i would be most excited to see us trade up for is sengun. his profile sorta screams stay the hell away but idc. trading up for a semi-plodding big who shot no 3s seems like a good way to get filleted, but this kid’s upside is just so damn tantalizing. a million times more so than, say, deni or obi were last year.

Cybersoze – I did forget to mention we’d have to get his rights, but I think if we wanted Micic and he wanted to sign with us, we could get his rights for a couple of future 2nds and maybe a bit of cash.

I think people are on to a lot when it comes to the potential value of hitting on later picks. If our later picks turn into young rotation players they will end up having a lot more value than a late pick or a journeyman vet we just signed.

Overall though, we shouldn’t be in any big rush. We need to be patient and make our picks, be smart about free agency, and continue to look overseas, which I really think is the best place to find excess value outside of the draft.

swiftandabundant: I used to work for Blue Man Group in NYC (was part of their stage crew, props running during the show, etc).

Serious? That’s awesome, they are hilarious, they must have one of the most memorable Tiny Desk concerts that i can remember. ;D
And i think i remember them doing music with city sounds, like on Brooklyn bridge or something like that. I have to search for the video again.

I know there aren’t any better ways to end a soccer match, but PK’s don’t prove a damn thing.

Ben R: His complete unwillingness to even look at Vildoza in the playoffs really turned me a bit on Thibs. His coaching in the playoffs this year was very poor.

You might be right, but some coaches don’t like to mess with the team’s chemistry and although i was mad watching the titanic (Knicks’ playoff performance) sink, i can see that his decision makes sense.
And lately i was pleasantly surprised by Thibs involvement in the draft process, and i don’t know if you watched the video on Begley’s tweet that i shared up-thread, but Thibs taking the players to be evaluated by P3 Sports Sciences is a good approach. They analyze data to understand “athlete movement and development for performance optimization”, and their motto is “Athletic Performance and Injury Prevention Intelligence”.

Jk this is from trouser press magazine in 74. I hadn’t thought about that band in decades but just read this the other day. Cool that you brought them up

washington is not a big Brit-ish rock town. Bluegrass and Southern raunch draw big, but a group like ELO comes to town and leas than 400 people show. so · this Anglophile was quite happy when _two (count •em) British acts played cl~s in Georgetown with-in a week. First I -caught Badfinger at a place called the Bayou. The welsh quartet ran through a short but thoroughly enjoyable set, spot-lighting songs.off Straight up and No Dice, their two best al-bums. Nothing fancy about these boys, just those clean, precise harmonies and some energetic · musicianship. Badfinger showed that they can be a much heavier band than their recorded material would indicate. Guitarists Pete Ham and Joey Molland exchanged lead and rhythm parts f’luidly, while bassist Tom Evans and drummer Mika Gibbons drove them steadily onward. · ·. Throughout the •et, Badfinger seemed to be enjoying themselves thoroughly, ni~e to see in a day when many bands seem to approach performing as a pain in the ass. Their enthusiasm and overall mu-sical sound brought to mind the inevitable comparison with the Beatles which has followed Bad-finger ever since “Come and Get It” beca• a chart hit four years ago. Still, Badfinger must be considered talents in their own right. They are one of thtt few groups which consistently come up with great singles as well as having one of the tightest con-cert acts around. The highlights of the set were the beautiful,: slightly echoed vocals of Pete Ham ·on “Time-less” and the encore, Dave Mason•s “Only You Know And I Know,” not extremely different from Mason•s own version, but an interesting rendition nonetheless. After a couple of weak studio albums(!!!, and Badfinger) and considering the strength of their concert act, the. time may be right for. a live Badfinqer LP. *

Ben R: His complete unwillingness to even look at Vilodoza in the playoffs really turned me a bit on Thibs. His coaching in the playoffs this year was very poor.

Really? While I was a little disappointed Vildoza didn’t get any run, given how nothing else was working vs Atlanta, it makes sense how an NBA coach would rule out a player who had no experience in his system. Brooklyn did sign Mike James from Europe and play him big minutes, but they also had a lot of injuries.

And also, it’s unclear how quickly Vildoza was even able to get into the country and pass various Covid protocols. Where Mike James had been with the Nets for the last several weeks of their season. I’m not sure there’s a precedent for a player to join a team in the playoffs and move into the rotation. Even Billy Ray Bates — whose improbable playoff scoring burst for the 79-80 Trailblazers, as chronicled in David Halberstam’s “The Breaks of the Game” — had already played 16 games for Portland that season.

Latest NBA Videos, ESPN.com

“1:30 Kevin Hart still has faith in Ben Simmons”

Who is Kevin Hart? Is this a Sixers FO executive I’ve never heard of? Or a member of the development staff?

PHX-MIL is going to be a nasty Finals.

Early Bird:
Interesting that the teams seemingly all want to move up. All the draft boards are all over the place which makes me think there isn’t much differentiation between players.

I agree. And if lots of teams want to move up and few want to move down, the price for moving up will be steep. I still don’t see it happening for us unless we are only moving one or two positions, and if the draft is flat maybe there is no need to move.

To me, it’s not moving up in a vacuum, it’s moving up to target a specific player. So the question becomes whether the other teams looking to move up are targeting the same player that you covet. Then it becomes a bidding war.

Reggie Jackson is the straw that stirs the drink

That was a flagrant, he could have avoided that face rake

Game 6 should be fun. Nice recovery by the Clips.

The Paul George redemption tour continues

This thread is all Paul George and Ringo. What, no love for John?

Early Bird:
This thread is all Paul George and Ringo. What, no love for John?

LMAO

I was a bit unclear about my critique of Thibs. Him not considering Vildoza was not the problem but a symptom of his overall lack of flexibility. He made almost no adjustments despite us being outplayed.

His need to lean on his guys is a big reason I hope we don’t bring back both Rose and Gibson.

What do you guys think of Ayo Dosunmu? He’s mocked at 16 on nabdraft so in our range. Would you take him at 19 if available? Would you trade 19 and 32 for him?

Reggie Jackson, who is playing for the minimum, has earned himself several million with this playoffs run…

I agree that PG-13 is better suited for a #2 role, but this Clippers are really like cockroaches, it’s hard to kill them.
Who would have thought that they would arrive up here without Leonard?

Z-man: You really want Clyde to retire, don’t you?

It would break my girlfriend’s heart if she doesn’t get to see his suits on clydesofly ~80 times a year so no, I don’t.

I watched 3-4 minutes of highlights of several prospects in our range and his was the most impressive to me. The stats are pretty solid too other than his age, he’s practically geriatric. So that’s all the info I have. I guess you and Max aren’t on board?

I gave Dosunmu’s highlights a courtesy look and he did not strike me as someone to trade up for. Seems like he has a funky stroke and a loose handle. But I’ll keep an open mind.

Ingmarrrr: I guess you and Max aren’t on board?

For me it’s not a knock on the player, If they think he’s ready to contribute I’m okay with getting him at 19 or 21if available, but I will not trade up for him (as for many others).

I can get the complaints on the Beatles since their fame is bigger than life and some of their songs are melodically irritating or painfully overplayed but they simply are Pop Rock Perfection.

Knew Your Nicks:
Watched on YouTube recently the Rockumentary: “Lemmy: 49% Motherfucker, 51% Son Of A Bitch”
about Lemmy Kilmister of the Motorhead (Recommended)

Lemmy considers the Beatles as the best band of all times while also says that the Beatles were the badasses as being poor and coming from Liverpool while Stones were Londoners who went to expensive schools…

The Stones are better. There, it’s said.

@Alan – re: the Bledsoe trade idea – I really do like that. Could easily extort them gently suggesting that we’ll be coming after Ball and Hart with big RFA offers if they don’t make the trade. I think even if we had Bledsoe, I’d still try and sign Lowry. The more ball handlers the better, and the more defensive pests the better.

#The Stones are better. There, it’s said.#

Personally i prefer Pink Floyd over almost anyone not named Joy Division but if we wanna talk music-historically then the Beatles are more important than all of the above incl. The Stones.

Art is heavily a matter of taste
Otoh History of Art is written and being revealed through time.

Personally i prefer Pink Floyd over almost anyone

All I’ll say is that imo David Gilmour says more with one guitar solo than most professional guitarists say in a lifetime. And if they are a shredder they are practically insulting the instrument compared to him.

E, all merc’d out: The Stones are better.There, it’s said.

I love the way Keith Richards plays rhythm guitar. I’m so glad I eventually grew up as a guitarist and could appreciate things other than great solos.

Personally i prefer Pink Floyd over almost anyone

All I’ll say is that imo David Gilmour says more with one guitar solo than most professional guitarists say in a lifetime. And if they play shred guitar they are insulting the instrument compared to him.

For better or worse, even if Lillard is available, it sounds like there are a couple of teams interested that can and may be willing to give up more than the Knicks rumored willingness to give up 3 first rounders.

It also sounds like a couple of other teams may be interested in moving up in this draft. So assuming there is someone up there we are even interested in, it’s probably going to be expensive.

We may wind up focusing on finally get the PG position right, make a clear gain over Payton, and worrying about adding another star later.

Bouknight is probably the only trade up target I would endorse…

Alperen Sengun is also probably worth it from a pure value standpoint but a)it’s probably unrealistic that he’s a target… and b)he would cause a rejiggering of the roster… but the guy was the turkish league mvp at 18 so tough to argue with that kind of production…

Jalen Johnson is talented… but unfortunately can’t shoot and pretty poor overall in the halfcourt…. he’s a bit a mix of the worst qualities of lamar odom and ben simmons only without the natural basketball instincts that either had… that sounds terrible but he’s def talented but not sure how that fits on a team with randle/mitch already…. on top of that he is a bit of a flake so there’s some part of his personality that could torpedo all that talent which makes the overall risk profile too high to be sending significant assets in exchange for him imo… he might drop anyway so who knows…

Scottie Barnes also seems like a target and has nice upside.. also seems to be a pretty high character guy… but there are probably more questions about his halfcourt game…. namely his shooting and his ability to create off the dribble… he’s pretty nice as a draymond-esque or jonathan isaac kind of big who can be a defensive stopper but there are serious questions about how good his offensive game could be which makes trading up for him kind of curious… he doesn’t fit position or from a playstyle perspective….

Jonathan Kuminga was also rumored earlier in the year… he makes more sense… seems to have more offensive skills… and along with Green probably the draft’s most explosive athlete… but his ball skills are also a question mark along with his shooting…. i’d have to believe he’s still on our radar… he represents some very decent upside but is also pretty high risk… loads of questions from his gleague appearance and it’s enough where i would likely pass on him too…

Based on who the Knicks followed at the combine, it doesn’t sound like we’re drafting a PG. Means we’re (1) probably drafting a shooting wing and (2) signing a PG in FA whether that’s just re-signing Rose or going after another player (and I assume still signing Rose).

Seems like there’s a number of solid 3&D wings this year

Based on who the Knicks followed at the combine, it doesn’t sound like we’re drafting a PG.

I wouldn’t read too much into that. Teams often choose to meet with players they have less intel on, not necessarily the ones they’re aiming for. If anything, you often hear of teams deliberately not meeting with certain players they are hot for, just to disguise their interest and keep another team from trying to leapfrog them for that player.

Assuming we do not trade up, my ideal outcomes in order:

1)A PG and a 3-and-D guy with our firsts, in whatever order makes sense (i.e., at 19 take the guy Atlanta is more likely to take at 20 if he’s still there), and a big man at 32
2)Two wings with our firsts, and a PG or big man at 32
3)Two point/combo guards with our firsts, and a wing or big man at 32
4)A wing and a big man with our firsts — if they are convinced somebody like Jackson or Garuba has Mitch-like potential, and/or if Mitch is not long for the team — and a PG at 32. (I’d still much rather just wait til the Detroit pick to take a big, unless Mitch is gonna be used to fill one of the other two holes.)
5)A point guard and a big man with our firsts, and a wing at 32. (I could easily flip 4 and 5, since the wing and PG prospects in that 20-32 range seem about equally deep and flawed.)

@Alan: i like your outcomes 1 and 3, both with Queta as the big at 32, of course. 😛

I was checking news on HoopsRumors.com and they were having a live chat, so i placed the following question:

Do you think the Knicks will pick 3 times in the top 32, or will they try to move up? And if it’s the latter, what kind of deal would that be?

And the moderator (Luke Adams) replied:

They’ll try to trade up, especially if there’s a guy they like in the late lottery. It might be tough though. Teams like Indiana (13), Golden State (14), etc. would probably rather trade their picks for vets rather than MORE picks.

If the Knicks wind up bringing back 3 out of 4 of Noel. Burks, Bullock, and Rose, add a solid starting PG via trade/FA, and draft 1-2 players in the 1st round, that may not be the ideal outcome, but it would OK, A clear improvement at PG, upside from RJ, the return and possible upside from Mitch, Quick and Obi growing into their roles, and some new blood would not be the worst possible outcome. We HAVE TO come away with a starting PG.

I posted a suggestion for a version of the trade with the Pels for no10 and Bledsoe the other day – I think it definitely has its attractions. I’m not sure I’d give them no21 – maybe 32? We’d be giving them 20m of relief this year. Bledsoe is a serviceable guard for this year alongside Rose and Vildoza. We’d then have 21, 19 and 10 to either pick cost controlled players or package two or all three to move up if that gets us into the discussion for top 5/6. Bledsoe has a small guarantee for the following year so we can waive him and afford at least a couple of our own FAs on multi-year deals while keeping space for next summer. Don’t know how keen the Pels are to free up that space but I’ve seen several commentators say they’d like to get out from under the Bledsoe deal.

It would be amazing if we could somehow get 10 in exchange for 32 and taking on Bledsoe’s deal. But NOLA management has two potentially conflicting priorities right now: 1)Appease Zion, and 2)Don’t make this side project punitively expensive for an ownership that cares much more about the Saints and treats the Pels as a side thing.

I suppose the two could work in harmony, with Griffin selling it to Zion as, “Getting out from under Bledsoe’s deal allows us to keep your buddy Lonzo, and have more flexibility overall.” But I feel like they would want to get some kind of useful piece back that would make their superstar a little more gruntled (or is it less gruntled?).

if we decide to bring the band back… or if we are splurging in FA… then we are essentially locked into it for however long those contracts run and will be HEAVILY reliant on draft picks breaking through because we won’t have cap room to sign anyone for basically the next 5 years…. whatever the case may be .. we have this year and next offseason to determine what roster we are running with for the next 5 years because we will be capped out no matter what….

Bringing part of the band back does not necessarily preclude using those players to make a trade for a star later as long as most of the contracts are not too long. More important in that scenario is holding onto our own picks and the future Dallas pick. Usually, when a star demands a trade, the team immediately moves towards a rebuild. If you can include some 1st rounders and maybe 1 young player you can probably get it done even including a couple of those guys. What we can’t do is give these role players really long contracts unless the deal is so favorable it can easily be moved for a pick if we need an extra one. A rebuilding team is probably not going to take even a fair very long term contract for an older role player.

What I don’t want to do (and I hope the team is smart enough not to do), is take a huge step backwards with a eye towards some theoretical future 3-4 years down the road. We should try to get better this year. That probably means either some of this band has to be back in free agency or we have to find even better bandmates over and above a PG.

I love all of you, but we aren’t getting lillard. we aren’t getting the 10 for taking on Bledsoe. We aren’t trading for Zion. If we move up, it’s only going to be for a few picks.

I personally wouldn’t bring back any of our free agents for what they are going to cost but if I had to bring back two it would be Noel and Bullock.

I think we should definitely let Rose and Burks walk. They will be expensive and they both do their best work in isolation and I would rather try and build a move inclusive modern offense.

And the KB fanfic season began anew

Wow Trae out for game 4.

Bucks should cruise to the Finals, the asterisk grows and grows….,

As I understand it a bone bruise is like an incipient broken bone. It’s both serious and painful. It sucks that he is out, but I am not surprised.

Impressive RJ looking like a natural born leader

If the Bucks lose this one I’ll lose what little respect I have for them

I am enjoying the Okongwu coming out party

there aren’t many okongwu types floating around any more. sort of a classic 90s 4 who can defend the rim and is a nice and clever finisher from a few feet out but not much stretch or playmaking. a little horace grantish maybe.

Ahh shit

That looked really bad, but Giannis is back on the bench…?

Quick trip to Olympus for a visit with Asclepius

No way he can play after that

Man, that looked like a major hyperextension, how could he not have damage?

OMG, for those who didn’t see it: https://streamable.com/3r3h78

I can’t imagine that there isn’t real damage there, it looked awful.

d-mar:
AD, Kyrie, Harden, Murray, Kawhi, Trae, Giannis

And the 2020-2021 NBA champion is……*

Don’t forget Mitch…

This game is like watching Happy Days but Fonzie and Richie Cunningham aren’t in the show anymore

He looked like a fucking flamingo

Cam Reddish with some nice minutes tonight.

RJ Barrett had 22 points (8-14 from the field, 5-7 from the line) including a step back 3 off the dribble, 5 rebounds, and 3 assists in 29 minutes against Greece.

If you’re an RJ Barrett skeptic, this is going to be a long summer for you because the Barrett Hive is committed to being very annoying.

The real question is whether or not capitalism will win the NBA Finals

Kelly Oubre to the Knicks is getting lot of smoke recently, this time it’s Begley…

Free agent wings Knicks could target this offseason, including Kelly Oubre Jr.
https://sny.tv/articles/knicks-wings-free-agent-kelly-oubre-jr-6-28-21

Depending on the price, might be a good option. What do you guys think?

Knick fan not in NJ:
Nice article in the post on Pelle:

https://nypost.com/2021/06/29/norvel-pelle-is-on-a-mission-to-stick-with-the-knicks/

Maybe he’s a keeper.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he’s the primary backup to Mitch (or to Noel, depending on how other moves go) next season. I also wouldn’t be surprised if he’s cut by the end of training camp. This is gonna be a weird offseason.

cybersoze:
Kelly Oubre to the Knicks is getting lot of smoke recently, this time it’s Begley…

Depending on the price, might be a good option. What do you guys think?

He might be a good value at the league minimum and even then I wouldn’t want him. Oubre’s terrible and has been his entire career. The only possible value he would have is if he put up decent counting stats and you’re able to trick a team into trading for him.

Finals prediction:

Suns in 3, as there will not be enough East Champs players to field a squad for 48 minutes

Count me out on superstar trades and Kelly Oubre Jr. Kelly Oubre doesn’t fit our team at all, so no thanks. Superstar trades are going to deplete our roster depth, our cap space, and our draft picks and leave us with minimal to actually build with, so no thank you because I think we’re a season’s worth of smart moves away from being able to absorb the damage a trade for a star would do to the roster. As of right now, a star trade would require all of Barrett, Toppin, Quickley, and every movable 1RP until 2025. We shouldn’t be interested in giving all that up just to get crushed by a healthy Nets team no matter what we do.

Yeah, the Begley article even notes that Oubre didn’t really start playing well until Wiseman was out and the Warriors had to go to small-ball lineups where he played the 4 and 5. So the only ways he makes ANY sense here are:

1)Thibs is planning to reshape his entire defensive scheme and have Randle and Obi play a lot of minutes at the 5, leaving room for Oubre to be a stretch 4; or

2)Obi is going to be traded in the offseason, and Oubre would be Randle’s backup.

Either way, pass. His value on the wing just isn’t high enough for the salary he will almost certainly command.

What about Otto Porter on the cheap?

***every star except Chris Paul is getting injured. Either this is a karmic payback for all his heartbreak… or he’s pulling a hamstring tonight.***

You forgot the Door #3 scenario: Paul George gets injured in the 1st quarter tonight and the Suns still lose the series, adding to Chris Paul’s karmic heartbreak.

cybersoze:
Ok, i see Oubre gets KB to unanimity. LOL

@Totes: i don’t think you can get DMitchell for 3 picks in the 20s and Obi + Knox (does he have positive value!?)

You’re right. I should have clarified. I meant I have no problem including those in that package lol..my bad

If the Suns win, Hubert has to rent out the Surf Lodge for the next KB get-together.

I would consider Oubre on a 1yr deal to preserve cap space for 2022 and field a viable wing. He’s a 3pt shot away from being decent. For a multi-year, the value would be below what he would want & we’d bet on the staff fixing his shot. I don’t particularly want him.

What odds did Hubert get? This is gettting interesting.

DeRozan is out there as a free agent also. I think he could be a nice fit at the 3 for us.

Wow! Good luck man! I’m not a gambler, but I’ve never seen higher odds get this close.

Hubert: I got +3500, which was insane. The Suns had the 2nd highest SRS in the league at the time.

I promise I won’t judge you if you tell us how big the wager was and it strikes me as horribly irresponsible regardless of income or net worth. And do be sure to say hi to Chrissy for me.

back when the suns were playing the lakers and I assumed I would lose I mentioned the amount.

TNFH put some money on the Suns, too, at the same time.

I still don’t think I’m going to win, though. So not getting carried away.

Hubert:
I got 3500, which was insane. The Suns had the 2nd highest SRS in the league at the time.

My plan was to wait til they get to the finals and place a considerable wager on the Bucks to ensure I end up with a healthy payout. Now it doesn’t seem like I need to do that. If it gets to game 7 vs the Clippers, I will not remain idle. Too much weird shit in these playoffs to be confident.

From one gambler to another, congratulations.

It’s wonderful to be in a can’t lose position. 🙂

From here it’s just a matter of how you want to hedge, if at all.

Kelly Oubre

He supposedly played better in the 2nd half of the season, but I’m a “no” on him.

Hubert:
I should also point out i’m a little scared of winning. My friend has “a guy”, and that’s who I bet with. My friend is a fireman who spends money like he’s Drake. So there’s definitely something sopranos going on there. I keep thinking of a pissed off paulie walnuts deciding it’s better to break my legs than to pay me.

lmao

That’s not a laugh at you so much as I understand the feeling. 🙂

Seriously, unless it’s a really huge bet I don’t think you have anything to worry about. Just don’t sit with your back to the door when you go out to dinner or anything . 😉

> Porzingis has entered the chat
> Ntilikina has entered the chat
> Reddish has entered the chat

Who else, strat?

It wouldn’t shock me if you didn’t like Durant’s rookie year. I know the WOW people wrote a bunch of articles like that at the time. lol

Seriously. it depends what the standard is.

The league is full of guys that didn’t get good until 24 or so.

If it’s superstar or bust, then almost every player is a failure. But outside the top couple of picks, if you get an all star you’ve done really well. Below the top few you get a solid 3&D starter you’ve done fine. Beverley didn’t make the NBA until he was 24. Danny Green broke out at 24. If Frank was a taller, longer, more switchable Beverley I’d throw a party and even invite you. Why don’t we wait and see what Frank and Cam become. They are YEARS away from their peak.

Well, the reason the odds were +3500 on the Suns was because of where they were on the win cu…. um … er … good luck collecting, Hubert; it was a great bet.

Oubre is athletic and the Knicks could use some athleticism on the wing, for sure; I just don’t think he’s that good. And there’s no interest here in another “well, if he could just shoot, he’d really be something” guy. But everything has a price and if his is low enough, so be it.

Deeefense: It wouldn’t shock me if you didn’t like Durant’s rookie year. I know the WOW people wrote a bunch of articles like that at the time. lol

Yeah, I didn’t like his rookie year. Because he sucked. But that doesn’t mean I would write off his entire career. Reddish shooting 26% from three in his second year is not at all what Durant did.

Deeefense: Danny Green broke out at 24. If Frank was a taller, longer, more switchable Beverley I’d throw a party and even invite you. Why don’t we wait and see what Frank and Cam become.

Danny Green played 207 total minutes before that age-24 season, playing on two consecutive 61-win Finals contending teams (CLE and SAS). Cam Reddish has played 2301 minutes and Ntilikina ~4400. Do you really think Danny Green is a good comparison?

Beverley was a 2nd rounder out of Arkansas who got traded for cash considerations before he played a game, and earned his first appearance over three years later. Cam Reddish went to Duke as a top-5 prospect and got drafted in the lottery. Ntilikina has played professional basketball since he was 17 and also was drafted in the lottery. Do you really think Patrick Beverley is a good comparison?

Hubert, my understanding from watching The Sopranos and tons of mob movies is that the mob will pay up on a bet you win because if they didn’t no one would bet with them and gambling is how they make their money. The problem arises when you borrow money from them to make a bet and then lose and now you owe them.

If they were willing to take your bet, I’m guessing they can cover it. They’re probably more than happy to pay you out given that every other person putting money in likely lost big.

Giannis still listed as doubtful for Game 5.

Giannis won’t play for at least the rest of this series, I’d imagine. I cannot believe he didn’t tear anything. They better do like 3 more MRIs to be sure.

@TheSteinLine
The Hawks say Trae Young (right foot bone bruise) is questionable for Game 5 of the Eastern Conference finals, as Clint Capela (right eye inflammation).

The Finals will just be Middleton, Jrue, Mikal Bridges and Ayton playing 2-on-2.

one of my favorite short scenes in Desperado is with tito larriva (tavo) and cheech marin (short bartender) going over their “books” behind the bar:

Tavo : [in Spanish] How much in dollars?

Short Bartender : [in Spanish; counts] 18,000.

Tavo : [in Spanish] Fuck. Should we pay him or kill him? More for us…

Short Bartender : [from behind the counter] I have a house payment.

Tavo , Short Bartender : [in Spanish] Kill ’em.

I love the tacit agreement to not discuss the huge NCAA news of the day, as literally no one wants this thread to become that thread again

The last 9 minutes of Game 6 are pivotal to Chris Paul’s legacy. If they blow a 20 point lead, it will mar everything he did this year.

Edit: Chris Paul stepped up.

Honestly without Kawhi this was a really impressive effort from the Clippers

Good for Chris Paul, an all-time great player delivering an all-time great 4th quarter performance and carrying his to the finals. Dude literally must have said, “Young bloods, just give me the ball and get out of my way.”

Beverley should be suspended for like 20 games for that shove in the back.

The Finals start July 8, which means the Suns will get over one week to rest. If the Hawks-Bucks goes 7, they will finish on July 5. Even if it only goes 6 on July 3, the Suns will be much fresher.

Masterful virtuoso performance for Chris Paul,
despite his kind words for Clippers’ fans revenge must be sweet…

Phoenix with one week to prepare for the meeting with the Eastern Conference Mash Unit Tournament winner.

I know the Suns have benefitted from opposing stars going down, but they look pretty legit to me. I wonder how the KB guys who mocked them a couple of years ago when they maxed Booker and drafted Ayton are feeling about them now…

vincoug: Really rooting for Phoenix and CP3 and the Surf Lodge KB gathering sponsored by Hubert to win the Finals.

There, i corrected it for you. 😉

Hubert deserves to finally nail a prediction !
I don’t know about Paul tho…
;-p

Interesting Aldridge and Hollinger piece on realistic packages the Blazers could get for Dame. Two excerpts from the Knicks section, from Hollinger:

The question, as ever: What might it cost the Knicks? At the moment, at least, New York would be in the fortunate position of being so far under the cap that it could swallow Lillard’s contract completely whole. In fact, the Knicks would only need to send Portland the 19th and 21st pick and recent first-rounders Obi Toppin and Kevin Knox, and they would have enough money left over to still re-sign Reggie Bullock, Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel and Derrick Rose via their low cap holds.

Now, obviously, picks 19 and 21 aren’t getting a deal of this magnitude to the finish line. Realistically, it probably also costs the Knicks Mitchell Robinson and heaps of future draft capital. Surely Portland would demand New York’s firsts in 2022, 2024 and 2026, as well as the 2023 first-round pick owed by Dallas. All told, that would be six first-round picks plus Robinson, Toppin and Knox, but only two of them would have a realistic chance to be in the lottery. (A protected future first from Dallas isn’t hitting the jackpot as long as Luka is ambulatory, and neither is a 2022 Knicks first with Lillard on board.)

He also notes that the Knicks would need to keep RJ to make the team strong enough for Dame to want to come here. But then we get to the part explaining why New York might be able to outbid a New Orleans, despite having a weaker asset base:

The reason Portland might prefer it, however, is that financially, it offers a massive reset. A Blazers deal with New York like this cuts $110 million or so in payroll over the next three years and puts the Blazers in position to have massive cap room in 2022 and rebuild almost immediately.

I love Dame and I’m trying to stay away from what Jowles correctly described as “KB fanfic season”
but Hollinger’s proposal made me puke (as Hollinger usually does when he talks Knicks).

So, we bring back the team that was destroyed by the Hawks (minus Obi),
add Lillard and his huge contract, go over the cap resigning everyone (and Randle),
don’t pick in the first round until 2023… then what?

Does someone really think that, injuries aside, last year team plus Lillard (minus Mitch, Obi, cap space and picks) can win the title in 3 years?

Seasons went by, years have passed, he changed jobs and employers, but still after all this time the gentler thing I can say to John Hollinger is “fuck you sir”.

I would have to think RJ is NOT a future allstar, ever, to trade him for a 31 year old Dame.

Overall it’s really sad that in the NBA only LA and Miami, and theoretically NY can dream of adding the megastar they need to win with. I mean can anyone see Pat Riley even *considering* trading a Lillard level player instead of fishing for the players he and Lillard can win with?

there isn’t a trade that gets us dame that would make us better than the blazer team that he’s already on…. we would have to get him through cap space or picks alone and that’s probably never going to happen…. so i’m over dame….

i think we do have a chance at a sustainable contender if we were to nab Lavine or Beal next summer … along with a pg this summer…. that’s probably the better way to go….

We could easily build a contender with Lillard but we would also need 2 aliens from outterspace to land in msg.
And these 2 aliens should know good basketball!
And they should accept to play for Vet’s Minimum!

In other words:
Dame breaks down The Win Curve…

Or in Max Words:
Bbbhhhbbbbhhbouuuuuuuuughghghgh!!!!!
(Extreme puke sound effect)

lillard and randle would work out wonderfully.. i just have my doubts about the team around them…. it would be sort of like the poor man’s version of the lakers…. only lillard and randle are nothing like lebron and AD…. and we would be stuck with a similar supporting cast….

we have brooklyn… milwaukee.. philly… and now atlanta… it’s a tough ask to break through even the first rd…. and i think a lillard/randle team is probably missing another piece to truly run with those guys…. if we keep RJ it starts becoming a real possibility tho but i’m not sure how realistic keeping him is….

that’s why i think targeting the window just past next year is where we start to really shine…. the superfriend contracts are up in bk and they may want to breakup… middleton/holiday would be well into their 30s… philly may have another year of dysfunction…. i would probably only worry about atlanta at that point but who knows how the new officiating would impact trae…

lillard is a nice idea.. but ultimately i think it’s just another melo deal given what we would have to compete with.. and he has zero leverage to force his way to us on top of it….

I used Rose’s salary this year, not his caphold, so you need to cut $3M from Burks/Bullocks salary. With Rose & Lillard on-board, Burks may just become redundant anyways.

The jury is very, very much out on whether Randle can be a good #2 for Dame, or anyone else. That’s the fundamental issue with all of these star deals — what happens when you completely change Randle’s role and put the ball in someone else’s hands? If it’s some kind of “my turn, now your turn” arrangement, count me as out as out can be counted.

Begley’s proposals are complete non-starters.

Objectivity compels me to report that I don’t see this summer ending particularly well.

Actually, league average salary may get you to $10M for Bullock (fitting him within Early Bird rights & $5.5M cap hold). So that saves us an extra $4.5M. Subtract $3M for Rose & we can fit the above team. I really don’t see it as a terrible option despite the hefty price for Lillard.

Portland isn’t trading Lillard this offseason

Bring here Lowry, 2 Draft steals and a bunch of rough riders and Let’s Kick Asses!

Furthermore, Portland is going to give up all its assets to acquire someone. We should be offering them Randle, not trying to get Lillard. We could get a good player like Covington or Jurkic and add like 4 unprotected firsts and multiple pick swaps.

#Hefty price, but we aren’t as stripped as people seem to think.#

I think we’re more stripped than a very hardcore porn magazine.
The main reason we looked classy as a Playboy is Thibs but as we saw at the playoffs we switched very fast to a b-class Hustler magazine…

didn’t Portland just say Chauncy was Lillard’s preference? they aren’t trading him to rebuild. maybe if they got simmons and those picks. I think the more likely is CJ for simmmons, somehow

Mason is a good one, but it’s King.

But you really want obscure (Mason isn’t obscure at all) it’s my namesake Hubert Davis and his #44.

Anyone who thinks that Guitar Jimmy would never give up a Hollinger/Begley type package + a bag of crisps to starfuck a player of Dame’s caliber is just whistling past the graveyard.

I know the idea is just idle speculation at this point but shit could get terrifyingly real quick fast in a hurry should Neil Olshey ever decide to phone a friend at 2 Penn Plaza. Until the day this team gets a new owner, these type of nightmare scenarios will always remain well within the realm of possibility.

#buytheknickshubert

we had a long debate once at work about whose jersey can you never wear in public under any circumstances. the clear winner, buffalo bills 32 with “Simpson” on the back. 2nd was a South African track suit reading “Pistorius”. 3rd of course… NY Jets, 6. “Sanchez”

I’d go with X’s 32

Yeah but Dame is 31. 31 years old! He will not remain elite elite for that much longer and even if he’s still a good offensive player at age 34 or 35, he will be a liability on defense and he will cost a huge chunk of our cap space.

We JUST recovered from the Melo trade and now people are speculating we do a similar deal for an older player? Don’t get me wrong, DAME is a great player, probably better than peak Melo was, but he is 31 years old. 6 first round picks feels like so much to give up especially if Obi and Mitch are on top of that. For what? A 2 year window?

I know anything can happen as these playoffs have shown. But also these playoffs are a fluke bc of the shortened season and if anything it shows that going all in on a star heavy team can be disasterous if that star gets injured. The Suns have been able to weather CP3 being out for some games because they have a young and deepish team. Teams like Brooklyn, THe Bucks, Lakers…all coming up short bc their stars got hurt. And if this is a fluke year, I just don’t think a team with Randle, Dame and RJ is good enough to beat a healthy Nets or Bucks team. I don’t know. I guess if we keep RJ and IQ, I could talk myself into it. We’d be good for a few seasons for sure. But it feels like a lot.

I’m not coutning on the second rounders, even in the double draft, to amount to much.

If Dam was 3 years younger I’d be down.

If rather try to sign CP than give away everything.

#Why would the Lillard Knicks be much better than the Lillard Blazers?#

Only because of the East – West competition difference…
Which seems to be Not as much as it used to be…
If none…

swift’s on point with dame’s age being a large factor… our window would be relatively short if it’s just lillard and randle and while dame should age relatively gracefully… it’d be tough to assume that he would be as dominating at 34 and if he loses even a little bit off his fastball… along with the age curves on soso guys like burks and bullock.. then this team starts looking bad after year 2 or 3…

i don’t even think last year’s knicks with dame would make it past the second rd.. i mean if we start knocking out giannis… harden and kyrie… and have the sixers collectively choke for half the series… then we could go as far as our voodoo dolls take us…. but i don’t think it’s going all that far next year….

and if you’re making a deal like that that mortgages your future and you can’t even be sure that it makes you to the ECF.. then there’s zero reason to do it….

Dame played like Jesus from Nazareth walking on water in these Playoffs and they were still eliminated!
With the Knicks he should start flying to have a real chance!

A little Vildoza scrimmage porn for those who enjoy such things.

If our D and a superstar gives us a real contending chance why trade for one and Not just wait and sign one?

styling and profiling in a knicks’ jersey – that’s easy, number 20…

#jaredjeffriesforever

Anyone here would make one of the 3 proposed trades (one from Hollinger and two from Begley) for Dame?

“If you build a healthy foundation/team like the Spurs did in the last 2 decades all you have to do is Wait for the right chance!
Instead of being The worst for 10yrs to have a chance every 20yrs!”

I actually agree with you, but the worry is nobody comes and re-signing Randle & RJ maxes us out for the foreseeable future. Plus, Lillard is REALLY good!!

I think Beal & LaVine are both disgruntled enough to leave. KD will be if his team falls apart from injury again. It’s just a bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush.

#I actually agree with you, but the worry is nobody comes and re-signing Randle & RJ maxes us out for the foreseeable future. Plus, Lillard is REALLY good!!

I think Beal & LaVine are both disgruntled enough to leave. KD will be if his team falls apart from injury again. It’s just a bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush.#

We just had ONE Good season

ONE

Our first One!

Patience!

I don’t mind much and understand the thinking in trading for Lillard or Beal. But just please don’t trade RJ in any deal for them, that would be Knicksy and giving up way too much.

I think there’s a lot of hesitance over a lillard/randle pairing because the third guy we’re depending on is … alec burks…. out of all the potential third options in the east… burks is BY FAR the worst and least reliable.. and we’re hanging contention hopes basically on him repeating it for however long…. that’s very shaky in my book…

also i don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that bringing the band back would result in a top 5 defense again (opp 3p fg%… personnel… among other reasons)… and i also don’t think that just adding dame would result in a top 10 offense…. the stotts vs thibs offenses are miles apart from each other….

just looking at the roster vs other contenders as a whole… i just don’t see how it would ever stack up… i dont’ think we would a) have homecourt in the first rd… and b)make it to the second.. i think it’s probably a coinflip if we do.. not too different than where we were this year…

Let’s stay the course. My list of “I’d be happy with” draftees has grown to include:

Butler, Springer, Cooper, Duarte, Dosunmo, Mann, Christopher, Murphy, Queta, Hyland, Bassey and McBride.

That’s 12! Let’s add another pick or two.

Edit: Add Jericho Sims and Quentin Grimes too.

I would be all-in on giving Dame a 4-year max in free agency, regardless of his age right now. Sending 4 or more picks plus young talent to get him reeks of the Carmelo trade, even if Dame is better than Carmelo ever was. Hard pass. The trade price for a superstar only makes sense if you’re the Bucks or Clippers and trying to go from, say, 60 wins to 65. We are not there yet. Julius turns into a pumpkin and we are fucked.

Also, Donnie: I disagree with your post but only in terms of risk. And of course the fact that Giannis is the most durable player in the league and there’s virtually no argument against it after a couple nights ago. I still can’t believe he’s not in surgery right now.

i think a few folks mentioned the possibility of signing derozan…. but what about the possibility of signing derozan to be our pg? his assist% has been steadily climbing for years and it’s over 30% now… i can’t say that all i’m that familiar with derozan’s game since he joined the spurs but in terms of just jamming as much talent under the cap… derozan’s pretty good… could he fetch less than 20mm? maybe around there?

then let’s say we add beal or lavine next offseason… our team would look like:

pg: derozan
sg: beal/lavine
sf: barrett
pf: randle
c: robinson

that might be a bit too much like a daily fantasy team… and not sure how it defends… but that would be a good offense.. and maybe even a great one…

is that crazy? or crazy good?

Julius turns into a pumpkin and we are fucked.

Julius is what he is. He’s not a mystery.

He’s better than the player from two years ago when he was asked to be the #1 option on a horrible team in a horrible offense with no space and he’s not going to put up the same assist or scoring stats he did last year if we add a legitimate PG to run the offense and another scorer (who could also be that PG). About the only thing we don’t know about Randle is his sustainable 3p% on a good team where he’s not forcing up too much trash. So split the difference and call it 35% from 3, fewer assists, fewer TOs, a few PPG less, but better shot selection overall (assuming we add a solid piece or two).

Lillard is exactly what we need. Adding him would be great if we could do it for 3 first rounders and maybe Robinson because we could bring back Noel, not lose a ton at the C position, and we’d be gaining a ton now with the addition of Lillard and still have a several year window to keep improving. There’s still plenty of upside with RJ, Quick, Obi, any draft picks we retain, and other deals.

I’d be opposed to including RJ because he was a key piece to our success last year, still has a lot of upside, and we’d be taking 1 step back by losing him to gain 2 steps with Lillard. That’s not enough and we’d be losing upside.

Some of the other trades being tossed around online are brain dead stupid. We’d be doing exactly what we did with Melo. Granted Lilliard is better than Melo, but most of the scenarios I’ve seen would leave the current team and it’s future gutted. That would be insane.

I think we’ve already made a solid addition at point guard. We may add another point guard prospect via the draft, but Thibs is only going to have a 10 man rotation. Rose and Vildoza will get the lion’s share of pg minutes in my opinion.

Vildoza may be a fine addition, but I doubt he’s good enough to move the chain forward significantly. If our PGs are Rose and Vildoza we still have problems at that position.

Lillard is exactly what we need. Adding him would be great if we could do it for 3 first rounders and maybe Robinson

Just a question of if, huh? You’re a gambler, Strat, what do you think the odds are of the Blazers accepting 3 non-lotto picks and Mitch for Dame Lillard?

We don’t even know if he’s even on trading block. A lot of these proposals coming from Knicks fans are delusional. Can we at least wait for something a bit more concrete before we start playing fantasy GM?

Yeah, that’s why I said you should only think about trading for him if you think you have a reasonable path to the title in the next 2 years.

JK47:
Dame costs $50M at age 33 and then again at age 34. Doesn’t that seem to be a problem?

A fact is that you win championships by having a collection of the best players you can have. You need a all-NBA players as well as all-stars. I can’t remember a team that has won without that configuration. That makes arguments about contract value unconvincing when it comes to the cornerstone player. How much money you pay players does matter but it applies to the rank-and-file. You don’t want to give a player a max deal unless you have a high degree of confidence that they will deliver a couple of years of expected production.

If Dame can be expected to perform at his all-NBA level for two years, I give up a lot to get him. Money is the means to the ends. It would be a dream scenario to add Lillard and Kawhi. Trading for Lillard makes Kawhi a better bet. So I would jump at trading 3 firsts and Mitch if I knew I could pull that off.

JK47: Why are we acting like three firsts plus Mitch is the actual price

Don’t have a clue.
There’s only two ways to get Dame, a lot more picks, meaning 4 picks and 2 swaps, or else we’d have to include RJ.

Brook Lopez looks like Bill Russell if Russell had an offensive game

How could we let playoff legend Bobby Portis walk for nothing??

“Why are we acting like three firsts plus Mitch is the actual price”

It is a price. If it can’t get it done, that’s fine. Maybe you can add in Obi or something like that. But the prices in the media are brain damaged level stupid. They are so stupid I’m assuming it’s just a bunch if dopey media guys trolling Knicks fans.

***Dame is a great offensive player, but he’s not the same caliber player as Harden. The Nets trade for Harden is not the template for Dame.***

He is the same caliber player as Harden, but, regardless, the template is Jrue Holiday: Bledsoe, George Hill, three future first-round picks, and two additional draft pick swaps.

Sorry I’ve been haunting you, Geo! You didn’t imagine it, though. I broke my iPhone for the zillionth time and decided not to replace it. That was 2 1/2 years ago now.

I have a computer that provides me 98% of what the iPhone did, and living without the other 2% is well worth the reward of actually seeing the world around me.

truth to be told donnie, owen has been posting mostly normal shit for a while, and i couldn’t poke on him none, and – your lillard thing sort of caught my attention…

the thought of cleaning out most if not all our picks, probably RJ and mitch both, having one player sucking up sooooo much of the roster payroll doesn’t sound so good…but, after reading what you and GoNy said it sort of made sense, then it didn’t again…

the reward of actually seeing the world around me.

i get it now…i really don’t wanna know the exact time of day, or, even what day of the week it is, it shouldn’t matter…

Sometimes I forgot that Lopez, before he started bombing threes, was (and is) a very good “old style” offensive player (he kicked our asses many times while in BRK)…

The problem with Lillard is not going to be how much we pay him, it’s how much we have to pay Portland.

But again, Portland has a big neon sign over them saying “take all our assets”. We should be focused on trading Randle to them for a Paul George-like package, not throwing everything we have at them for Dame.

I keep seeing these Lillard to NY proposals that include Mitch, RJ, Quickley, and 1sts. I’m sorry..I LOVE Dame. But I’m not giving up that much for anyone less than Giannis, Luka, or Embiid. Not because I think our guys are that good- but because of how important those guys are to our roster. It’s just too much. Dame is not going to replace what those 3 players bring- even if he averages 30 a night for us. So..I am a hard pass on Dame right now. It’s just gonna cost way too much to get a 30 yr old guard with some real mileage and whose game is predicated on burst. Giving up those guys in exchange for Dame isn’t really gonna improve the team enough to make it worth it.

Hubert: The problem with Lillard is not going to be how much we pay him, it’s how much we have to pay Portland.

I don’t agree with this, and maybe you didn’t do the math, i guess. The problem in trading for Dame is that even if it’s for a fantasy package of few picks and a young player, let’s just say you’d be able to keep Julius, RJ, Quick and Obi, waive Vildoza, Pelle (to save money) and don’t pick in the first round. That’ll get you to 28.9M, which is good for a 25% MAX, seems great, right? But the 25% MAX players are of the RFA kind, and to make matters worse, there’s exactly 2 good players (Collins and Lonzo) that fit this money, and Lonzo probably doesn’t deserve it. Other option, spread the money between 2 players, but who? Dinwiddie? Who else? The free agency crop this year is weak.
Last option, wait for next year and let’s just say for the most money that Julius signs the extension, with the increased salaries of the 5 players you have plus Julius extension being 4.5M more than in 2021, we’d be left with 18M, which is an even worse situation.
So the problem in trading for Dame is the money and the timing (weak free agency). The only chance is if they can line up a trade for another very good player using those 28.9M and Obi or Quick, which is good to get you a player like KAT. But is there a player like this to get this offseason? Because next offseason we’d only improve upon giving up on Julius.
Dame is my favorite PG, i think i’ve mentioned it, and i would absolutely love to have him ignite the MSG crowd (it’d be amazing times, that’s for sure), but unless they can get another piece right now, the timing is not right for us.

Early Bird:
“Not because I think our guys are that good- but because of how important those guys are to our roster.”

Mitch missed half the season & we started playing better

IQ played about 10min a game after we got Rose

So, are you saying RJ is better than Damien Lillard? Because that’s insane.

No dude lol..I literally said not because I think those guys are better. What I am saying is we are giving up 3 core pieces and picks. That’s alot to give up for a player like Dame. The upside of that deal is not worth it because you can’t bank on good players signing for cheap for the chance to play with Dame and Jules. You just can’t. Especially with the current FA market. Don’t get me wrong..I would LOVE to have Dame. But at what cost? Dame’s no spring chicken anymore. Are we really willing to mortgage the future for a couple more years of Prime Dame? It is tempting as hell though.

Two of those guys barely play, how are they core pieces of our roster? Mitch missed half the year and it made no difference, doesn’t really seem core. IQ plays 10min a night, doesn’t really seem core. Neither player is worth holding up a deal. It still may not be the right move, but those guys had minimal bearing on last season

Early Bird:
Two of those guys barely play, how are they core pieces of our roster? Mitch missed half the year and it made no difference, doesn’t really seem core. IQ plays 10min a night, doesn’t really seem core. Neither player is worth holding up a deal. It still may not be the right move, but those guys had minimal bearing on last season

Don’t let the season fool you into thinking Mitch and Quickley are not core pieces for this particular squad. Take Dame out of the conversation and look at the team. We have one PG and one C on the roster who will be here long term. One. Both of whom have played roles in this team’s success. Quickley more so than Mitch because Mitch got hurt. And don’t let Mitch’s injury fool you either. It just so happens that Thibs was able to pull everything out of Noel in Mitch’s stead. But Noel got exposed once the physical play started. Not to discount Noel because he did a helluva job,, but Mitch is better than Noel.

Now..bring Dame back in. We make that trade and the only “core” pieces we have afterwards are Julius, Dame, Knox, and Obi. Then we have to re-sign Burks, Rose, Noel, Taj, and Bullock somehow- and add free agents to fill the roster. Oh and we will have zero decent draft picks to work with. Does that really sound better than using the draft and free agency to add to this team? And we don’t necessarily have to stay at 19 & 21. We can package Obi and one of the 1sts and #32 to move up. Hell..GS will probably take Knox, 19 & 21 for one of their top 15 picks if someone we want is there. Look I’m just saying we lose a ton of flexibility by losing Mitch, RJ, and Quickley to add Dame. Maybe I’m crazy but this feels worse than the Melo trade for us to me.

Considering where our roster and cap is right now, I would much rather trade Randle than trade for Lillard. But Randle isn’t going anywhere and Lillard isn’t coming here unless we blow up the intelligent rebuild we seem to have started and instead commit to the fake contender strategy for the next 5 years. It would really be a colossal blunder, and I’m shocked that anyone here is advocating for it. Especially when none of the remaining teams have made that sort of blunder at our stage in the win curve.

So if you’re going to go ahead fantasize about trading for him, fine, just a) stop with the low-ball offers, he will cost a king’s ransom of picks/pick swaps/assets and b) stop thinking that it gets us even into the finals, much less a chip, with the shit we have left when we’re capped out.

I believe enough in Randle to extend him this offseason if he’ll take that extension. I don’t believe in him enough yet to wait a year and extend him then when it will cost way more. Although I guess if he replicates this past season AND does better in the playoffs next year, he might be worth that 5 year max. But I think if Randle takes the 4 year extension this off season, even if he regresses a bit, he is still a tradeable asset. If he is somewhere between this last season and the season before, then he’s still a good player. Its only if he regresses fully to the Fizdale era Randle that the 4 year extension would be an albatross.

Randle had a bad playoff series but an amazing season this year. I believe in him as a core piece (for now). Ideal situation would be he takes the 4 year, still plays at the same level, Obi develops and eventually we feel comfortable enough to deal Randle for another star and let Obi take over in 2 years or so.

I’m interested to see how Obi does with the Select team, hopefully with the training wheels off.

swift, I agree that he will give the $100 million a good, long look. I also think there are several reasons why waiting is risky, and among them is that his play regresses a bit and he’s not viewed as a $$35 mill player any more. If I had to bet one way or another I would say he rejects the extension, but wouldn’t feel confident in that bet at all.

There’s also no question that his poor playoff performance is a factor, that certainly didn’t help his perceived value around the league. I don’t think teams will be lining up to max him, especially in a sign-and-trade, based on this season. Next season is pretty much a clean slate.

if Randle doesn’t sign the extension then we would probably have to entertain the possibility of trading him sometime before the deadline…

If Randle does not sign the extension this summer, the Knicks will have months of additional data before they have to decide what to do at the deadline.

1. If Randle plays at the same level as last year’s regular season, he is worth more than the $26M that he could get in an extension this summer. Second team All-NBA is worth the 30% Max he could get next summer.

2. If Randle regresses to 2019-20 levels, he would not be a viable trade asset.

3. If he is an All-Star (but not All-NBA), his market value will be above his current $21M but below the 30% Max.

Bottom line, if Randle bets on himself, we have to wait to see the results.

Bottom line, if Randle bets on himself, we have to wait to see the results.

I respectfully disagree. I would make it very clear to Randle that if he bets on himself, he will have to prove it on another team. There’s no reason we should be left holding the bag if he regresses. Portland is the perfect trading partner. I’m confident Randle can get us the Jrue Holliday package and then some from them.

If we wait til the season starts, Portland will have likely blown their ammo by then, and no other team is as desperate as them.