From Peter Botte:
A costly weekend due to Mitchell Robinson’s injury still resulted in two important wins against undermanned opponents for the Knicks.
Immanuel Quickley connected on four 3-pointers and scored 22 points — while replacement centers Nerlens Noel and Taj Gibson played well in the first game without Robinson — as the Knicks’ depth led them to a convincing 121-99 victory Saturday night over the Rockets at the Garden.
Derrick Rose contributed 16 points off the bench as the Knicks (13-15) took advantage of Victor Oladipo’s absence for Houston due to a foot and ankle injury, just as they had the previous night against the Wizards without NBA scoring leader Bradley Beal.
Julius Randle also scored 22 points and Elfrid Payton added 15 for the Knicks, who will host the Hawks on Monday. John Wall led the Rockets (11-15) with 26 points, while Eric Gordon finished with 24.
Isn’t it weird that the example they use is Victor Oladipo when it’s clearly Christian Wood’s absence that the Rockets are feeling the most?
Anyhow, fine victory. A lot better than the Washington game, where the Knicks just sort of sleepwalked through and were just lucky that the Wizards are beyond terrible. This was a nice, balanced effort against a bad team (but not an insanely bad team).
Derrick Rose had another strong game and Immanuel Quickley broke out of his recent shooting slump to nail a bunch of big threes, especially scoring 6 points as the Knicks went 8-1 after the Wizards cut the lead to five in the third quarter. That proved to be as much as the Rockets could muster (Boogie and Wall looked exhausted after that big burst to get it within 5).
The Knicks have a nice easy stretch here, so they actually have a chance of getting to .500! The last time the Knicks were at .500 this lat in a season was the year Porzingis got hurt after making the All-Star team.
155 replies on “NY Post: Immanuel Quickley, Derrick Rose lead Knicks to easy win over Rockets”
Forget tanks!
This team is Airborne!
Sometimes, when we’re playing well, I look at the blogs for our opponents. I did this for Washington and Houston. It was not what it used to be. The Washington fans were like “the Knicks are just a better team than us” and the Houston fans were complaining about their rotations and such. It feels surreal to not have other teams not complaining about losing to the Knicks and instead bemoaning the state of their team.
We’re going into games 29 and 30 and they’re significant games versus direct opponents for the playoffs,
it was certainly not expected at the beginning of the season.
Despite Noel’s good efforts and Gibson’s savvy veteranship is too bad we have to face Comeback Player of The Year Capela and East All-Star Vucevic without Mitch.
The change in pace and space when Quickley and Rose check in is so astounding it’s like playing two different games (for instance… basketball and snail race or curling).
I know we’re only 28 games in and so it’s a bit early to make comparisons like this, but how I felt watching that Quickley 3rd-4th quarter explosion must be what Dubs fans feel when Steph just goes nuclear – like 13 points in 6 minutes or some such crazy thing.
Also now just 3 games into the Derrick Rose NYK Experience 2.0 (2 of which came against bad / depleted teams), but it’s hard to say it hasn’t been pretty indisputably great. The only iffy thing is that it seems to have come at RJ’s expense, but we will see.
Max, it’s true the second unit is a big contrast from the first unit. With Randle and Barrett, a lot of the first unit scoring comes from inside; but with Rose and Quickley, the second unit scoring comes mostly from outside.
The team is clicking in a lot of ways and there’s probably more upside as the young players (especially Quickley and Obi) get more experience, but we are back to “bad RJ”. That’s 4 games in a row he hasn’t shot the ball well. His TS% is back below .500. Bad games here or there are going to happen to everyone, but when it’s 4 in a row and it’s RJ, it induces a little more panic than if Curry had a few bad games in a row. 🙂
Ultimately, I think at least one of either Rose or Quickley is going to start to create a more balanced starting unit but I’m not sure which one and when. For now we should probably let those two run wild on opposing team’s second units.
Thibs is going to stick with the starting 5 because he thinks they set a strong defensive tone. He sees the first Q in terms of you can’t win the game there but you can lose it. I tend to agree with him on that. It’s a very physical unit. Let them pound teams inside with Randle, RJ and Payton, and have Bullock roam the 3pt line and Noel protect the rim and grab lobs and putbacks. It’s not like they are getting woefully outscored in first quarters.
It’s fine to insert selective second unit guys depending on how the starters play. Burks will continue to be the first sub in on most nights, either for RJ or Bullock. Quickley is a rookie, so better to play him 20-25 minutes so he doesn’t hit the rookie wall in this condensed season. Rose has an unwritten minutes restriction, so better to come off the bench. Obi is limited by playing behind our best player…he’ll only get more minutes if Noel or Taj get into foul trouble or need rest. Taj is a pro’s pro, will play as much as he is needed, prob 15-20 minutes or so. Knox and Rivers are non-rotation situational players. That’s a logical approach and I don’t see it changing much going forward.
RJ has definitely improved but he’s got some high mountains to climb to be an all-star level player. Thibs has cut his minutes back significantly. In seven February games he’s down to 27 mpg. It might be that our roster is healthier now and Burks is (rightfully) cutting into RJs minutes. But that’s a significant decrease, and I’m sure RJ is sensing that he’s not as important to Thibs in the win-now context as he might want to be.
And not to bash RJ, but I don’t see him as untouchable. If the right opportunity comes along, I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s traded as part of a package for a better player. He’s exactly the kind of player that gets overpaid on his second contract.
Z-Man
You are making a lot of sense, but at some point Payton can’t be the starting PG if you want to have a serious basketball team. I always liked a lot of what he does and felt he was young enough that there was a chance he’d improve his shot over time, but it looks like he’s just a backup. The newspapers have been talking about Beal, LaVine, Oladipo and guys like that. But maybe a PG like Ball is still on their radar.
RJ’s the only young guy on this roster who can reliably and with a relatively large sample size create his own shot (I know, I know). He plays offense and defense and has an overachiever personality. The numbers aren’t good enough, yet, but he’s still very young.
Untouchable? No. But for example I wouldn’t trade him straight up for Beal at the current stage of their careers.
Everyone knows Miami is looking for a star to add to Butler and Abedayo. There’s a little buzz about Miami trying to trade for Porzingis in a deal that may make some sense. I haven’t seen it from a source I’d consider reliable. Prozingis, Abedayo, and Butler would be quite formidable, but it would probably cost Miami a LOT.
Right, but with the team we have, Payton is a logical choice for Thibs and his style of play. Another coach would think differently (D’Antoni for sure!). In the long run, things will change.
IQ is already making progress as an NBA player. He’s going to the basket more and taking more step-back 3’s. His defense is not great, but not bad either. If he continues to develop his passing and overall court awareness, he might be the guy going forward. But not yet. Let him work on his body for another off-season before chasing starting PGs around screens for 35 mpg.
Any GM who turned down that deal would be fired on the spot.
Yes absolutely, but threaten from outside open lanes to the Obis and Gibsons and Noels.
Burks is on a bad streak but yesterday in the first half Rose and Quickley made a lot of good looks for people that missed the shots. The starters are not so fluid on offense, most of the time it’s iso or a forced penetration
(good job yesterday finding Bullock open in the first quarter, he didn’t shoot after).
Payton is playing at, or near, the high of his potential, but still opposing teams let him open and double up the other players when he’s leading the offense (he’s taken advantage of this, but you need the right team, with no rim protectors, to do this well).
RJ needs to get out of his funk, he’s a very good passer and a well known streaky outside shooter, but he’s missing a lot of close range shots, we need him to be a reliable scorer in the 3-10 range.
On another subject, I agree with the ones saying that Randle is the only player we couldn’t afford to lose for an extended amount of time, even if Mitch absence will be felt.
Randle, be it good or bad, is the safety valve on many plays for the starting five.
Just to elaborate…at their respective salaries and ages, Beal has oodles more trade/market value than RJ. So even if you like RJ’s prospects, from a strictly value standpoint, you could flip Beal for way more than you could get for RJ.
That said, my personal opinion is that Beal at $34-37 million is like 10X more valuable on the court and cap-wise than RJ at $8-10 million.
On one hand, Quickley’s minutes really are jarringly low for someone playing so well. His numbers are straight up good for any guard, let alone for a rookie coming off a shaky NCAA career.
On the other, it anecdotally feels like Thibs has kinda protected him from extended struggles via the minutes limitation. He may have prevented some 1-8s from turning into 2-12s, that kind of thing.
Is that a good enough reason to limit his minutes? I guess that’s tough for me to say. If it’s true it has certainly made his basketball reference page look tidier, but that obviously wouldn’t be a sufficient justification. If you think it may also have a positive effect on Quickley’s confidence, I suppose that could be a point in favor of the approach.
If it were up to me he’d be playing more simply because we have a much stronger interest in his development than anything Elfrid Payton and Derrick Rose bring to the table, but we know that’s not Thibs’ approach. I also can’t say definitively that limiting his minutes has hurt his development as it’s hard to argue his development is being stunted in any way while he’s playing so well.
The rotation isn’t what I’d do, but there’s logic to it, which feels like the first time we’ve had a logical rotation since I don’t know when. That third quarter starters stretch is the one that repeatedly hurts the team, for reasons I’m not quite sure about — a little mix-and-match halfway through the third might not be a bad idea.
Reality-check for the hive — people were repeatedly saying IQ wasn’t a point guard, didn’t have a good handle and couldn’t drive. He’s certainly no Kyrie (yet?), and of course he’s an up-and-down rookie figuring things out from game to game as to be expected, but anyone feel those complaints aren’t as valid nowadays?
I have watched the Obi alley-oop clip a LOT today.
At the quarter season mark @swiftandabundant and @Ben R (not sure who else) looking like early favorites in predicting the win total for this year. Currently on pace for 33.
low content pure hype post. player 1 u know. who is player 2?
age**pts/100****reb/100***ast/100**fta/100***TOV/100****3pt%***BPM**WS48****TS%
21****32.3*******6.2*******6.8*******7.5********2.6******37.0%**2.6***.157****56.4%
24****31.0*******6.1*******6.2*******6.2******3.6********37.5%**2.2***.111****56.4%
I mean so far I’m happily eating all of the crow on the Quickley pick in general, but as of now I still don’t think he’s a full-time point guard. He makes decent reads every now and then but I don’t think he has the vision to direct an offense full time and his passes aren’t the most crisp (he leaves his feet to make them all the damn time).
Before people jump down my throat I will repeat that so far I am looking very wrong on him generally. Him not being a point guard is not even close to a death knell. Positions matter less than ever and there are plenty of combo types succeeding around the league (e.g. Mitchell, Clarkson, Sexton). I just don’t think you can say we’ve addressed our need at point guard because of him.
What’s funny is that I think one of the only “untouchable” players on the team right now is Quickley, because he’s not enough to get a big star with him as the centerpiece and he’s too promising to ever allow to be added to a deal, so I can’t think of any real scenario where he gets dealt in the next year or so. Granted, that was the same exact situation that Landry Fields was in a decade ago, but still, it’s interesting.
Beal is what he is, 127 WS/48, -1.6 dbpm, 1.3 vorp. Not a guy you can build a playoffs team around — this is a fact. Why do you want to pay him so much AND give a bunch of assets?
The trade market value is unquestionable. But it doesn’t work like this.
One thing Thibs definitely needs to do is get Quickley and Barrett more minutes together. They’ve only overlapped for 185 minutes. Seeing as how there’s a scenario in which they constitute our backcourt of the future, you would think we’d want some information as to how they play together. The fit is theoretically good so I don’t see getting a look at it as punting on winning now.
I do think the most underscrutinized aspect of Thibs’ insistence upon leaving Payton in the starting lineup is the detrimental effect its probably having on Barrett’s offensive game. He’s pretty much leaving the kid hanging out there to dry on offense playing him in a backcourt with Elf as a partner being left wide open on the perimeter while an extra defender clogs the passing lanes. It’s just not a good fit with a slashing wing like RJ.
I am glad someone said it here. I felt like I was taking crazy pills as well.
Rose’s BPM on the Knicks is ridiculous, but his play is still more worrying than encouraging.
5.6 OBPM
3.6 DBPM
9.2 BPM, which is MVP level
Of course 0% chance he keeps it up. He’s been unbelievably hot from the midrange and unable to get to the basket. What we see is not sustainable and his shot distribution causes more longterm worry than his current hot shooting.
Through 3 games, DRose has 1 attempt at the basket. That’s not his game and it portends bad things.
A couple random thoughts responding to different posters:
– I’m with TNFH on IQ’s PG play. I don’t think he’ll ever be a true PG, but he can certainly play a Lou Williams role or off the ball.
– I could return to my original pessimism about RJ, but I have confidence he’ll bust out of this slump sooner rather than later
– ptmilo, is that a Kemba Walker line?
Brain racked. Nada.
Luka and who?
The 1st one is IQ. So I’m guessing the 2nd is another PG, maybe a SG because the assist numbers are low
Player B in the comp is not Booker, Mitchell, Brown or Simmons from what I can see.
I don’t know of any other top 24 year olds.
Call me old school, but I kind of always thought it was a good idea to play your best players the most minutes.
Agree with what you are saying, but his NCAA career wasn’t really shaky. He started slowly last year, worked his way into the starting lineup, and by the end of the season was the #1 option on a successful major team. He was the player of the year in his conference ahead of players that got drafted higher.
The great mystery is why anyone thought he was a 2nd round prospect and not a lottery prospect. The only thing I can come up with is that he’s small to be a SG and wasn’t considered a real PG. Those tweener types can be risky at the guard position sometimes. Maybe people also made the the mistake of just looking at his annual stats and not how he was improving in leaps and bounds. But there was very little question he was very good.
The article that almost became about Immanuel Lewis. 😉
https://www.cbr.com/webster-emmanuel-lewis-origins/
Obi Toppin was literally the Player of the Year. College awards are meaningless. I assure you that Quickley winning co-SEC Player of the Year had no bearing on the Knicks drafting him when they did. It was almost certainly based on how well Payne knew him (hence the Knicks trading up hoping to get another player Payne knew well and when he was gone, they traded down to take Quickley). His fellow two co-SEC Players of the Year went
457th and undrafted, respectively (we actually saw the undrafted player last night. Did Mason Jones seem impressive?).Spacing is definitely still an issue in the starting lineup. We are lucky Randle is shooting farl above his average from outside because if he was still throwing up bricks it would really be a mess.
The problem is we don’t really have a good solution. lol
Quickley is a good offensive basketball player, but imo he’s not a true PG (at least yet) and Rose’s minutes are probably going to be limited even if moves to the starting lineup at some point. Everyone knows the team needs a PG that can shoot or for RJ to improve a lot from outside and get consistent.
Who said anything about a bunch of assets?
Ingmarrrr said the following about RJ:
How many agree that they wouldn’t make this trade straight up? You, ras?
As to trading multiple assets for Beal, I’m a hard no. But straight up for RJ? Come on.
For some reason, the first thought that came to mind with the Immanuel … er Emmanual and Carson youtube is that EL just got done saying, “Whatchoo talkin’ ’bout, Johnny????”
Luke Garza is about to end up in the same bucket of super college player who doesn’t amount to much in the NBA.
Kaminsky has turned out better than I expected. Thought he would be a total bust.
Meandering around, happened upon this, which surprised me — Damian Lillard has only shot over .400 on 3’s once (.401). Meanwhile, not counting last season’s five games, Steph’s lowest 3 pt % was .411.
Career .373 vs. .434. I would have bet (a small amount of) money they were closer to each other.
Awards don’t mean anything by themselves but they do mean the player was playing really well relative to his peers in college. The analysis always go further. Teams are not dumb.
Here’s the difference.
Toppin is 22. He’s older than a few of our other recently drafted players. That’s why teams took his accomplishments with a grain of salt when drafting him. They knew he had less upside and was piling up his POTY numbers against younger physically less mature players in ways that were less likely to translate to the NBA than some of the younger players. So was he a great college player? Yes. Without the benefit of what we’ve seen did he deserve to be drafted much higher? Probably not.
No doubt Payne had a lot of influence over the Knicks selection of Quickley, but that kid was lighting it up at the end of the season when he worked his way into the starting lineup. He was playing great. I even posted some articles with breakdowns when we first drafted him and said we might have stolen a gem. The only thing I didn’t know was that he had some PG skills because he didn’t play PG in college. That was the pleasant surprise.
I think it was big oversite by the league to let him drop to where he did. And unlike others I don’t think teams make a lot of big mistakes in the draft, Most of upside/downside surprises are too random to predict well. But like I said, it was probably because he’s a bit of a tweener in size and no one knew he had any PG skills except Payne.
Several people here did.
I admit there’s an argument for doing that trade straight up. So maybe it’s just me, I love players who can score at the rim even when everyone knows that’s what they’re going to do, and I totally distrust players who score in bunches on bad teams.
player B was beal’s age 24 season
I think strat was refuting the statement that Quickley had a “shaky” NCAA career. Whatever you think about postseason awards, they rarely apply to guys with “shaky” careers. He had a very solid statistical year as a sophomore, and won the award that the coaches vote on, which to me is more prestigious than the AP award, but that’s just an opinion.
The reason he was not rated higher was because he presented as an undersized, unathletic 1-trick pony in statistical models, and only marginally less so in some film-based scouting reports. Clearly there is some value in having inside info. In hindsight, he has played like you would want a top-10 pick to play, let alone a late first rounder.
Lee Branscome from Hoops Prospects was all over Quickley’s potential as an NBA player back in May:
Moe Wagner and the Wizards are absolutely bodying the celtics
Fire Brad Stevens!!
Yes.
I was also pointing out that if you looked at his annual stats last year, they were misleading because he started the year off on the bench, worked his way into the starting lineup, and then exploded down the stretch and was playing great. It was clear statistically and from all the coverage at the time that he improved dramatically as the season went on. So it wasn’t like he was just some pretty good college player that is shocking everyone.
An argument??? It would be the single best trade the Knicks have made in the last 20 years!
RJ is not a player who can score at the rim when everyone knows that’s what he’s going to do. He gets blocked or throws up a hopeless brick at the rim far too often to say that about him. You are actually describing Beal, who has shot 66% at the rim for his entire career, while RJ is at 61% this year..and still can keep his TS% over .500. And every place else on the floor, Beal is a far superior shooter than RJ, even though everyone knows he’s shooting. I think you are vastly underestimating how hard it is to shoot at a .582 TS% at a 36% usage on a terrible team when you are the focal point of every defense you face. It’s fine that you favor RJ for whatever reason, but this particular reason is preposterous.
As to Beal scoring in bunches on a bad team, if you replaced Beal with anyone but the absolute elite players like Giannis, LeBron, KD, etc., the Wiz would still be a bad team. Do you seriously think that Beal would be worse if he were surrounded by good players?
Again, I’m not in favor of trading for Beal for anything close to what it would realistically take to get him, but straight up for RJ is about as lopsided of a no-brainer as you could possibly have.
celts are different team without smart in there..
Beal is what he is, 127 WS/48, -1.6 dbpm, 1.3 vorp.
vorp isn’t a rate metric so 1.3 in 1/3 of a shortened season is equivalent to 3.8 or 10-11 wins or $45m plus. you might not think his best-ever bpm is a good measure of his value but it can’t be used against him.
by the way is it just me or is Quickley’s “lack of athleticism” totally overplayed?
Yes he’s not dunking on dudes like a young Westbrook, but he can get into the lane pretty well. The fear of his shooting makes his first step look so much faster. Dennis Smith is a nuclear athlete but can’t get anywhere – it’s how you use the athleticism you have, right?
And he’s not really undersized either – certainly not for a PG – pretty much average height (6’3″) and has a +5-6″ wingspan.
Wonder if it wasn’t the Knicks and it wasn’t a Kentucky player going to the Knicks whether it would’ve had nearly the bad press that it did.
Yeah, straight up for RJ would be impossible to say no to. At the very least, you could then go trade Beal for the haul that he will undoubtedly end up going for in this alternate reality where the Wizards were okay with just RJ for Beal.
The Celts just can’t handle size. Robin Lopez looks like Shaq against them.
Man, I can only imagine what the Beal offers are going to look like after this game.
I also don’t think the Wizards are as bad as they have played. I wouldn’t be surprised if they creep up the standings quite a bit going forward, especially if Russ can salvage something.
They’re entirely centered around Beal, so yes, looking at them without him is a lot different than when he’s there. When he’s there, they remind me of this year’s Pistons and Rockets – when their focal point (Jerami Grant and Christian Wood, respectively) are on, then the rest of the team can sort of cobble something together, but in general, they’re still going to be pretty bad.
Thomas Bryant being healthy would really change the Wizards, though.
The Celts seem to really miss Marcus Smart.
Avdija looks annoying
Quickley’s % of assisted 2 pt fgs is .161. That’s Lillard territory. He’s basically been the same player as Donovan Mitchell so far this season. So, yes the sample size is small but he’s been great at creating his own shot. RJ can create his own shot but he can’t make them so, at least for the time being, it doesn’t mean much of anything.
i don’t know why ppl are rehashing these old arguments like it didn’t happen….
he did not have good statistical years at kentucky… there was a reason why he was projected to be deep into the 2nd rd…. and the reason why the other players who also won the same award he won also went undrafted or deep into the 2nd rd….
do ppl think cole anthony was awesome? i seem to remember a bunch of ppl calling him wack but seem to think quickley was some amazing shit coming out of kentucky… how does that work?
Or alternatively, your analysis of his stats was laughably stupid and you just can’t deal with it. At least thenoblefacehumper has shown some humility. You just keep spewing the same dumb shit.
If Quickley was playing the amount of minutes he should be playing, he’d be the favorite for ROY. Unfortunately, his head coach is the kind of guy who seemingly spends his spare time re-reading “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” and brings that attitude to his day job.
“Avdija looks annoying”
To play against, to root for, or to have on an extended camping trip into the mountains?
We need to ask if Brad Stevens has lost the locker room
Quickley’s 3pt% last year at Kentucky was higher than his 2pt% and he didn’t show much playmaking ability. That and maybe his height is why he wasn’t a lottery pick. He had a pretty weird statistical profile.
I don’t think this is a relevant argument, the question is not about a chain of trades, it’s about whether you trade a 20 year old RJ on a rookie contract for a 27 year old Beal on a soon to be a max contract, and then you keep Beal. And yes, maybe it would be the right move. You’re left with IQ, Beal, Mitch, Randle, picks and some cap space to attract the trophy free agent we’ve been chasing for years. Fine. I’m in.
RJ for Beal ?
Such as saying PPierce for Beal?
Hell No! Im keeping the Truth!
lol
let me ask you something… did you even watch him play in college or is your opinion of him based solely on his sec player of the year award?
where was he on your board again? was he better or worse than Cole Anthony?
I didn’t get personal but since you did…. just really stop being a lonely old man craving for attention and try and be civil for once…. you spend an inordinate amount of time spewing terrible opinions that I have to scroll thru…
I joked before that strat stole your account but it seems that you overtook him in being the lonely curmudgeon of the blog looking for fights everywhere you go..
seek professional help….
“weird” is different than “bad”. It was well known that he got better as the year went on, In his 18 conference games, he shot 48% from 3 on high volume, had a FTr of .528 (!!!) and his 92% from the line. His TS% was .620 on a 24% usage. He averaged 18.4 points per game in conference play, scored in double figures his last 20 consecutive games, and 15 or more in 16 of those games,
It’s one thing to say that his statistical profile had a high probability of not translating well to the NBA. But there is no disputing that his overall scoring stats were excellent and his rebounding numbers were decent.
Allow me to say that starting your post by
#i don’t know why ppl…#
right after quoting someone’s previous post could possibly start a fight.
It’s just not polite and its also provocative.
Seems Contemptuous.
Cole Anthony was not a bad prospect he was a bad lottery pick. In the late 1st round Cole Anthony would have been a great pick. So I don’t really understand what you are saying.
As for Quickley late first through mid-second is where he was slotted in most mocks, we reached but not by much. He didn’t have the same PG skills as some similar prospects like Terry or Flynn but he was considered a much better defensive player. On top of that, IQ probably would have climbed the draft boards if the season hadn’t been cut short because he was exactly the type of player (main scorer on a top team) that uses the tournament to raise their profile.
Also, it seems that we had inside information on Quickley’s PG skills and work ethic that made him a safer pick for us than he would have been for other teams. This not a case of a bad process turning out well but more likely a case of insider information that helped us uncover a hidden gem.
Mock drafts, scouts, and statistics are all very important but when you have a coach on your own team that says I worked closely with this guy and he is the real deal that is also relevant information. When the pick happened it looked a bit like nepotism but the facts have borne out that it is more likely just a smart pick made possible by insider information and not simply some favor or bias towards Kentucky.
Quickley shot 39% from inside the arc in conference games. That’s terrible. He shot sub 50% at the rim. He wasn’t a playmaker. 90% of his 3s were assisted. NBA teams probably thought of him as someone who would just be a shooter in the NBA, and it’s easy to see why.
Anyone been paying much attention to Desmond Bane or Malachi Flynn? Obviously, I’m over the moon about Quickley, but wondering how the two guys I was sure we would regret passing on have done.
lol whatever, nice job on predicting how well IQ would do as a pro. Keen analysis.
Here’s what I said when IQ was drafted:
“Quickley can shoot. His ceiling is Lou Williams.”
“I don’t know whether Quickley would have been available at #33, but it doesn’t matter much to me. If that’s the guy you want, just draft him….it’s not like we took him at #8.”
“I’ll give them until New Years Day before passing judgment.”
Here’s what you said, o genius who has nothing better to do but feed numbers into a model that leads to these brilliant takes:
Before the pick: “dotson is at the top of my board right now”
At the time of the pick: “quickley had a very good chance of not getting drafted… at all”
“it is amazing how many people we hire for gm or pobo and every single one of them disrespect the most important part of the job…..”
Soon after the pick: “if you think the moves are fine i’m pretty sure you’ll be in for a rude awakening….the first pick is defensible…the second pick is not”
And my personal favorite:
“i can guarantee there will probably be multiple people picked after 25 that will be better than quickley and at least 5 players on our roster…. “
PS nothing personal…I’m sure you’re a wonderful soul. Just terrible at analyzing draft picks.
Toronto seems to basically just be stashing Flynn until Lowry leaves (they are leaning on Lowry and VanVleet a lot this year). Bane’s been playing as expected. 48% from three.
Again, it’s different to try to justify why he would be overlooked by citing things like this, and to badmouth his overall stats, which were excellent. Or are you saying that a .620 TS% is bad? And what is your response to the stats referenced in the article I posted above?
Quickley didn’t magically become some other player. He’s doing the same things he did in college, and because he’s playing PG he’s doing more PG things like he did in HS. He’s still not killing it from 2…who the fuck cares?
I really liked Bane and would have been fine with him at #25. It’s all good though!
Thanks, Brian.
Also, I will say that while I’m unhappy to have Rose the person on this team, Rose the player thus far has been a good fit with both Quickley (who benefits from sharing the floor with another creator) and Toppin (who seems to be getting the ball in more advantageous spots, rather than being ignored when he gets in good position). So… yeah. Moral quandaries are fun!
People were mad about Toppin. And then people felt we could have taken IQ in the second round while taking another useful play in his place. I was in that camp anyway.
I didn’t know much about IQ other than that he was projected in the 40-60 range.
It’s turned out to be a great pick. Rose deserves credit for seeing something in him and having taken him in the first round is now a big benefit.
I do wonder how good he will be long turn but he is definitely a useful nba player
I still find the Toppin pick hilarious, because none of us thought he was a possibility until, like, the day of the draft, so unlike all of other picks over the years, we really didn’t discuss Toppin ahead of time. It’s so weird to have a Knick lottery pick where none of us really talked about the guy ahead of time. It’s so weeeeeeeird.
It was a combination of that and because we kind of assumed that the Knicks would go small, since there were PGs and wings galore projected in the lottery and we were desperate for PGs and wings. Some models had Obi being there when we picked, but most predictions had us going with either Hayes, Hali or Okoro. And those who had us passing on them had us picking Deni. And nobody here pined for Obi, so yeah, he was largely ignored.
But once the rumors of trading up started, people here paid plenty of attention, and just about everyone hated the idea. Like you said, that’s probably why the outcry wasn’t greater when we drafted him…at least we didn’t trade up!
Yeah, I remember the conversation about trading up for Toppin. No one was into that.
Trading up for Ball would have been a great idea.
Cronin put up a 13 player poll and didn’t even include Obi
Which of these following 13 players would you be okay with the Knicks drafting at #8?
Tyrese Haliburton (19%, 118 Votes)
Kllian Hayes (18%, 113 Votes)
Isaac Okoro (14%, 88 Votes)
Devin Vassell (13%, 82 Votes)
Kira Lewis Jr. (9%, 59 Votes)
Onyeka Okongwu (9%, 57 Votes)
Tyrell Terry (4%, 22 Votes)
Aaron Nesmith (3%, 21 Votes)
Patrick Williams (3%, 20 Votes)
Tyrese Maxey (3%, 19 Votes)
Cole Anthony (2%, 13 Votes)
Saddiq Bey (1%, 8 Votes)
Precious Achiuwa (1%, 6 Votes)
you’re still stuck on predicting the future is good analysis…. you must also think calling a flipped coin takes some skill too then right?
i slammed the pick because it was a bad decision…. and along with the obi pick it was a portal into the decisionmaking process…. the quickley pick could turn out wrong… i wrote a very lengthy and balanced take on him at the 300 minute mark which still applies and everyone agrees he’s turned out better… but it’s still reflective of a likely shitty process that netted us obi over hali…. and a couple of 2nd rounders to give austin rivers and derrick rose their last chances in the nba…..
but i don’t have a crystal ball… and i think a lot of folks looking at quickley’s #s after the fact who didn’t even know he existed and acting like it was some sort of obvious thing have some explaining to do … esp when they don’t even normally try to pay attention to the college game….
Exactly! It just wasn’t on the radar!
Well, almost all mock drafts had Obi going around 5, and I’m pretty sure none had him dropping to 8.
I wonder who we would have picked if someone ahead of us grabbed Obi? Probably not Hali, maybe Hayes or Vassell?
I wish people were brave enough to just say they were wrong about IQ instead of having to justify they’re mistake with it was luck but still bad process.
IQ was killing it for UK when the season ended. It was a weird season cut short and already considered a weak draft. The draft is a total crapshoot and the further you get away from the first pick the more of a gamble it is. What is the point of even having scouts of the only “correct” move is to draft based on mock ups?
If he was picked where we picked OBI, sure it would be luck. But he was the 25th pick in the draft. We had insight into him bc of UK. We made a good pick. Full stop.
That’s certainly a take.
This is ridiculous. Most folks here pay limited attention to specific guys outside the lottery, and certainly don’t analyze 60+ guys, before the draft. Yet at the moment the Knicks draft draft someone, many if not most here delve into whatever analysis is available. As a result, most of us are more guarded in our conclusions. You, on the other hand, feel that because you did the “work” before the draft, that somehow you have more right to draw firm conclusions about the draftees, management and process than those who haven’t done the “work” and posted a 60-player board.
And when it becomes apparent that your dire warnings and even “guarantees” based on your crack analysis are wrong as fuck, you don’t even have the dignity to eat crow and say “hey, got that one wrong, maybe I shouldn’t be so cocksure next time, especially when it was my guy who went undrafted.” Maybe you should give some props to the guys who were either balls-on accurate (e.g. the article I posted above) or to the posters who said “well, it’s not what I would have done but let’s wait and see before I say things like ‘you’re in for a rude awakening’ or making guarantees.”
Time for this clip again?
by some people you probably mean me….
most people probably don’t remember this but we went through this same argument with mitch robinson…. and probably the same people involved who will defend whoever is in the knicks front office at the time saying the same things…. that we had some sort of inside information that made us specifically pick this one dude out yet we somehow lacked the know how to uncover who the nba player was on that kentucky team… and i’m pretty sure we all know the answer to that by now….
and it’s a similar type of thing here… if you’re going to take victory laps on quickley then you also need to come to terms with how badly the other decisions in the draft were too….. and that is indicative of a bad process….
but i’m not doing that….. unlike some people i can wait to have an opinion….
what guarantee did i make? where are you quoting that from?
this is a pattern with you…. and you’ve been called out by multiple that you intentionally twist what i say…. what is that i’m saying that makes you do this?
orly? mr fucking hottake thinks he’s more guarded in their conclusions than ME?
the people who actually pay attention to what i write and not actually just hateread through it know that i give ranges of outcomes and that the future isn’t set in stone… i literally write that every other time i post about prospects….
you on the other hand seem to have a magic crystal ball with this shit so why even bother talking about prospects when you have the secret sauce nobody else has… you seem to know this stuff better than all the draft analysts that actually do watch the games and spend years on their models too…. but for whatever reason we don’t get read any of your shit until well after the fact where you pull up cherrypicked quotes just so you can pat yourself on the back in front of everyone….
that is fucking rich coming from you…..
I don’t think Obi was a bad pick per se. Yes, Hali would have been way better and it was certainly the pick I would have made but there was and there still is reason to be optimistic about Obi. Even so far in a season that has seen very little role carved out for him, Obi has shown a real ability to finish around the basket. He is shooting 64.4% from 2 (72.5% if you exclude his first game where he went 0-5) and that is very good. If we ran plays for him he could be a real weapon. His three-point shooting is bad but sometimes it feels like he hoists them up because he often goes 5-6+ possessions without even touching the ball and I think that causes him to force bad shots occasionally.
The biggest problem with the pick is positional fit, which I don’t think bad teams should worry about too much but it has been definitely been holding him back thus far. The fact that Randle decided to completely break out right after we draft his replacement was bad luck. The real knock on both Randle and Obi is they are one position players in an NBA that prioritizes flexibility. The fact their one position is the same causes even more problems.
Like many of you, I did not like the Obi pick and so far we have been right but I don’t think it is evidence of a bad process.
#Sergio Leone Hommage Alert#
Good process brings you Obi while Bad process brings you IQ!
I really wonder what Ugly process could bring!
We’re trying to cobble together an offense like Tuco building his own gun out of pieces of three other guns.
Um, actually you DID do just that with IQ. Do you deny posting the takes I quoted above? Do they not characterize your attitude about IQ and the process of drafting him at #25?
More bullshit. I have made clear that my methodology involves looking at lots of draft models (they all differ no matter what the core methodology if you haven’t noticed) and film studies done by guys like Pearlman, Schmitz, etc. I made it clear before the draft, for example that I loved LaMelo, Wiseman and Hali, and absolutely hated Killian Hayes. Schmitz, for example, rated LaMelo the best player in the draft. You had him at #12 I believe. You actually rated undrafted Devon Dotson above him!!! And you expect your model to be taken seriously? That is a fucking franchise-killing misjudgment.
And that’s fine, except when you start talking like you know what you’re doing, which you don’t. At all.
BINGO. Lots of ego here from people whose own self-value is based on their perceived ability to be basketball experts. But even the experts are wrong. The most intellectually honest ones are those who admit their mistakes, learn from them, and move on about it without having to double down on why their mistake was wrong for right reasons.
I wish Thibs would recognize there are two types of point guards in the world: those who can shoot and those who sit on the bench.
Payton should be on the bench!
Here’s what I wrote a couple of days before the draft:
Here’s your top 13:
1. Anthony Edwards
2. Onyeka Okongwu
3. Killian Hayes
4. James Wiseman
5. Kira Lewis
6. Aaron Nesmith
7. Tyrese Haliburton
8. Jalen Smith
9. Devon Dotson
10. Devin Vassell
11. Obi Toppin
12. Tyrell Terry
13. LaMelo Ball
Do you really think your projections were better than mine?
I am a very, very brave man.
I was wrong about Immanuel Quickley.
Although I did, immediately, love his name.
Dj,
It’s possible to make good draft picks and bad draft picks…sometimes even in the same draft!
Mitch rob was also a great pick for where he was picked. You brining him up weakens your case. Each draft pick is its own decision.
If anything IQ and Mitch to me say we should be more than ok with two picks later in the first round bc we seem to pick better there anyways.
I mean we made bad choices with Frank and Knox. Then with OBI we make a good choice bc he was drafted where he should have been drafted and being a bad team we didn’t worry about “fit” yet that pick maybe turns out to not be the good one but Quickley is. That’s the draft for you.
I absolutely will take victory laps for IQ bc I ducking called it and was psyched about it when lots of people werent. If I can’t take a victory lap when I’m right what’s even the point of having a blog to comment on?
I’m not taking this as seriously as you are but seriously, you were wrong. It’s ok man. I’ve been wrong plenty of times. Just ask jowles.
See, I think the most intellectually honest ones not only admit their mistakes, but are open-minded enough to consider that other models/analysts see things that their miodels might be blind to…which I believe is the case for adherents to purely box-score based analytics. You notice that djphan didn’t take the time to address the article that I posted, where the author claimed that the “hivemind” was severely underrating Quickley way back in May. I’m suggesting that any model that would rate Devon Dotson, Killian Hayes and Tyrrell Terry over LaMelo Ball is laughably unreliable.
I know I can get worked up from time to time, but I only get entrenched in heated arguments about draft picks when I have enough confidence to put myself out there. Ntilikina is a notable example (Sound familiar? How’s that looking now?) So is Killian Hayes vs. LaMelo Ball (how’s that looking right now?)
In the case of IQ, I preferred other guys but gave management the benefit of the doubt. djphan went on and on about it being a colossally dumb pick that damned management to hell. Read his words! I merely said that the jury is out and cited articles like the one above, only to be scoffed at and condescended to, which is where the shit hit the fan between us. (how’s that looking right now?)
For those not watching, Portland dismantling Dallas right now. Kanter having fun.
I personally don’t really care because I don’t have a stake in this pissing contest. I just think a lot of the drama on these types of beefs (which can get pretty ugly) can be settled by people stepping back and just admitting where they’re wrong.
btw none of this is to say that guys like Dotson, Jalen Smith, Tyrell Terry, Tyler Bey, etc. will be bad players. But to criticize the Knicks FO for taking IQ at #25 on the basis of him possibly being available or going undrafted, when the guy you were hot for at #25 (and was #9 on your board) actually DID go undrafted, calls for some major crow-eating.
Ahhhhh, now this is truly a worthy topic of discussion. The clip you linked was actually after Tuco had assembled the gun. It’s a clip of him shooting at targets and then taking the old guys money.
Here’s the clip of Tuco “assembling” the gun: Tuco at the Gun Shop
The sound editing is just so magnificent.
These days my first thought of Tuco goes to Breaking Bad now.
Sure, like you did about Frank…after how many years? (and did you really ever admit that you were wrong, or just disappear for a while and come back as if nothing happened?)
Dammit! I blame myself.
And where do you think Vince Gilligan came up with the name Tuco?
The Tuco vignettes from that movie are all priceless. No one could have played that role better…
Portland imploding
Josh Jackson and DSjr with good minutes tonight…what is this world coming to?
What happens to teams on offense late. They look like us. I get the defense ratchets up but come on man
If the Knicks win tomorrow night they’ll be alone in 6th place, forget the play in tourney let’s get a 1st rd matchup with Brooklyn!
Dame dolla
I just wanna get back over 500 and go from there
feels like i’m watching dame vs luka and 8 foosball guys
I expected the Hornets Loss but the Raptors Loss was a really nice surprise!
Playoffs seeding is fun!
dude… you continue to do this… if it wasn’t for me, silky and noble and a few others this whole board wouldn’t be aware of any other model out there…. mine is just one take on the draft which i contribute and talk about because most seasons that’s really the only interesting thing to talk about…. multiple people have told you this… why do you keep going on about it?
i never claimed it was the end all be all of anything…. and when i talk about the wrong player in the wrong way people so uppity over it…
this same shit happened over frank… and they put this whole board through grief on it… hell the whole p&t website gave me so much shit over him and there was downright militant…. the whole board kept shitting on rj for a mediocre rookie year…. and now this fucking obnoxious shit over quickley is just asinine… maybe if you look for more of my quotes you’ll find the one where he could turn out to be a good player… or the 1000 words devoted to him saying that he was better than expected…. do you want to look for those posts or nah?
what exactly is people looking for here?
I love Hubie but he’s just gettin too elderly. I wish him peaceful retirement.
Knicks only have 9 games left in their 1st half schedule, not sure when the NBA is gonna announce the rest of the schedule. But the remaining 9 game schedule is very manageable, if Mitch wasn’t hurt I’d say for sure 5-4 if not even 6-3 could be doable but at this point since I’m realistically looking at the 9th or 10th seed just going 4-5 will suffice.
Such a shame when the Mavs lose…
I used to think that but he’s 87!!!! It’s unbelievable he can still do it!
djphan you clearly have a mental block about your own posting. You have no idea how fucking dismissive and condescending and know-it-all-ish you come off. If you’re going to be a smug prick, you’d better be right. In this case, you weren’t, laughably so. And the models that you, thfh and silky “discovered” are all flawed and unreliable and should be taken with a grain of salt…they don’t even agree with each other! And they all operate under the assumption that the box score is all you need, just ignore all the other info that is out there…coaches, video analysis, synergy-based stats, PPP, etc. I appreciate their value, but they are just one tool with limited practical application. That’s why you had LaMelo at #13 and thfh had him at #2. So you should take care not to sound as judgmental as you did on draft night and beyond with regard to the Knicks FO selecting IQ at #25. Read your own words carefully, there was no hedging and little tolerance for those who did. There were fucking guarantees.
lol, although that was a damn good look for Luka…
Really, that’s sooooo cool 🙂
When it comes to books, movies or shows I think a lot in terms of immersion. Vince Gilligan and his team where just crazy competent with the finer details within Breaking Bad.
Until you mentioned the name I had completely forgotten about Better Call Saul. We still have one more season coming in the series.
Once the release date is announced I need to catch up on what happened in season 5. Just saw these items that are connected to the show. Need to check them out:
AMC released ten mini-episodes of Ethics Training with Kim Wexler alongside the fifth season of Better Call Saul, which were presented on both YouTube and AMC’s social media sites. It follows similar series Los Pollos Hermanos Employee Training w/ Gus Fring for season three and Madrigal Electromotive Security Training presented by Mike Ehrmantraut for the fourth season. The ethics training videos are presented as continuing education videos mixing live-action segments of Kim with Jimmy filming her behind the scenes along with animated segments, and are a product of “Saul Goodman Productions”. The animated segments include nods to both Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad. The web series won the award for Outstanding Short Form Comedy or Drama Series at the 72nd Primetime Creative Arts Emmy Awards.
No doubt my favorite “minisode” from Breaking Bad was The Break-In with Badger and Walter. TwaüghtHammër is pretty funny too.
My wife and daughter are forcing me to watch The Undoing
Well, at least there’s pretty much only two guaranteed outcomes from that endeavor, both are fairly decent – either you enjoy the show or, you’re a lock for a decent nap. Generally, as long as you’re physically present for this type of assignment from the ladies, your mind and eyes are free to do as they wish.
is that a mini-series detailing the history of your relationship with DJ Phan?
Athens
6 am
Snowing after a couple of years
Listening to Venom’s black metal
Reading KBlogger
And getting paid
Life is good! 😉
Good one pep. What are you drinking?
Undoing is bad and should feel bad, Z-Man. You’ll all be mad when you get to the ending.
chianti classico…I just grilled some rack of lamb that I was marinating for 24 hours and it was the perfect pairing…
speaking of min-series…I just watch the 4 part Night Stalker on Netflix…forgot what a baaad dude that guy was….amazingly he sat in a cell for like 15 years before he got cancer and died…
The things we do for Valentines Day
I watched some of the Live: Bloodstock performance – man, I can not wait to feel some live music again.
It’s funny, certain commercials trigger different music memories. A recent commercial has me re-listening to some mary j blige and My Life. Not exactly cheery stuff, but what a voice she has.
Led me to go though some of Maxwell’s old songs too. Definitely some good 90’s stuff.
How about OKC beating MIL w/o SGA?
Hopefully AD’s okay. That Achilles is scary.
#I can not wait to feel some live music again.#
Any artists wishlist?
this has really nothing to do with being smug or dismissive or condescending… this has everything to do with offending you because i didn’t like ‘your’ player… just look at all the ppl mad at me… it’s like they’re at home playing ken and barbie only it’s quickley and frank….
i’ve written the same way in the same style over the same type of content for years… yet for whatever reason this year just triggers some people for whatever reason and it’s really over one guy… well maybe two if you include rj but for some reason people are real quiet over that one….
i’m just not gonna let some dude who is every bit as condescending and dismissive and the most petty and rude member of this board try to color me in what he’s accusing me of.. i’m allowed to have opinions… and yes i’m allowed to have convictions sometimes…. and yes i get it wrong occasionally too…. we all do… i’ve said as much… i dont get why you keep on this track like im some stubborn guy…
but i’m not just going to sit here and have someone paint this inaccurate picture of me trying to rally other board members against me no less…. you’ve done that repeatedly and it’s fucking immature and it’s quite toxic….
youre being the asshole so plz just stop….
Sorry bud, no chance. You brought it upon yourself. Deal with it.
Do you guys realize that you’re selfishly ruining the thread for everyone or no?
this probably does suck for everyone but i’m sorry i’m not going to take this abuse… i’ve dropped this multiple times… and i’ve extended multiple olive branches… i’ll ask brian or mike to step in to resolve this since this obsession isn’t going to stop apparently….
until then i’m allowed to defend myself….
Today, I was opining on Quickley’s college career with some other posters in a very polite way. djphan, who was not involved at all, responded directly to me with the following snark:
“i don’t know why ppl are rehashing these old arguments like it didn’t happen….”
So stop with the coy bullshit. If you want to avoid conflict, feel free not to respond to any of my posts. Today you went out of your way to start something with me, specifically about a topic you should be embarrassed to bring up. Don’t do that and we’ll be fine.
oh fuck dude…. i didnt realize what i had done,,,, i mustve broke the geneva conventions with that…
That’s from a poster who had no skin in the game. Do you respect him? Seems like the only question is whether you meant to be an asshole or just don’t know the difference. Either way, this one’s on you.
Here‘s a new thread.
ok let’s see… what’s more contemptuous.. or inflammatory…
or
i don’t understand why i have to go around walking on eggshells so that i keep YOU from being uncivil…. my comment was harmless… in no way did it deserve the response i got…. but since i got it i’m going to throw it back…
please do something about this brian…. i don’t know what else i can do… everything i say seems to trigger this guy…
Obviously the answer is door #2. Totally clueless.
that you keep thinking its not is pretty indicative of what youre all about….
guess that goes for KYN too, maybe I paid him off…
i much prefer brian take action…. the conversation is all here… relevant quotes are highlighted…. past behavior is well documented…
brian or someone please…
lol