SNY.tv: Should the Knicks trade for a star like Bradley Beal or Victor Oladipo?

From David Vertsberger:

NBA trade season is underway, with the Knicks setting off the starting gun by acquiring Derrick Rose in a deal with the Pistons. There remains a number of big names and deals to be made across the league, including for New York, finding itself within reach of the playoffs for the first time since 2013.

It’s no wonder then why some fans want Leon Rose and co. to swing for the fences and nab a Bradley Beal, Zach LaVine or Victor Oladipo, all three All-Star players included in recent trade rumors.

However, the Knicks shouldn’t be trading for any of them, at least not at this juncture. Here’s why.

First, the cost would decimate the Knicks roster, barring a Masai Ujiri-level swindle. Look at recent trades of this magnitude and it’s hard to imagine New York semi-matching these without undoing years of asset-building. Chris Paul was dealt for Kelly Oubre Jr., Ricky Rubio, two prospects and a first rounder. James Harden, though much more valuable, cost every pick from Canarsie to DUMBO, along with quality young players like Jarrett Allen and Caris LeVert. John Wall and Russell Westbrook were swapped for eachother.

To acquire Beal, New York would have to relinquish Julius Randle and whatever prospects or picks the Wizards wanted. RJ Barrett, Obi Toppin, Mitchell Robinson – none would be off-limits. Do it and he might as well be back on Washington, putting up 35+ points a night with no help.

LaVine and Oladipo wouldn’t demand such a haul, but even they would take a pair of prospects, picks and useful veterans. But unlike Beal, the two are set to be unrestricted free agents, Oladipo this summer and LaVine next. Knicks fans have been burned waiting for elite free agents to sign on, but things changed this year.

I don’t get how Beal would require Randle. Why would Washington even want Randle for Beal? Randle will be a free agent after next season, so it’s not like they’d be acquiring a cost-controlled guy.

I think Oladipo might come surprisingly cheap, but I don’t think the Knicks should trade for him. Just wait for free agency if you really want him.

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154 thoughts to “SNY.tv: Should the Knicks trade for a star like Bradley Beal or Victor Oladipo?”

  1. I said in a previous post that I don’t think the right wing/guard deal for the Knicks is there this season. Beal will cost too much, I don’t think Oladipo is the guy for this team, and I don’t wanna give up picks to bet on Lavine having a Devin Booker explosion jump.

    I’m sure we all remember the incalculable Jared Jeffries. Without looking anything up, my old memory recalls JJ’s 1st stint under Isiah as bleh bc he was overpaid and oversold; in a word, he sucked. But the JJ stint under D’Antoni was different bc:
    1. He was cheaper.
    2. Less was asked of him.
    3. 2nd stint was on a more talented/better coached team.
    4. Bc of 1, 2 and 3, it was easier to appreciate his role.
    I remember D’Antoni publicly complementing him on a lot of the non box-score stuff JJ contributed.

    I see a JJ parallel in D Rose: Less paid, less role, better team, better impact.

  2. Yeah, to me it’s less about timing and more about cost. The key is to only go for one of those guys if it is clearly a steal. For example, if the hypothetical RJ for Beal straight up presented itself, sure, why not? But barring a clear no-brainer trade, no need to do any buying at all, in fact, we should be selling at the deadline. But given Thibs’ preference for winning now, that is seeming less and less likely except for one or two fringe guys like Rivers, maybe Frank, maybe but probably not Payton, maybe one of either Burks or Bullock. Seems more and more likely that Randle is staying put, and if you’re keeping him, you probably keep everyone in the rotation.

  3. Any artists wishlist?

    That’s a great question KYN.

    I love making grocery lists. I know that’s a little different, but I just like to make lists :)

    So, on a pad next to my computer at work I have a few different bands to see:
    – Incubus
    – 311
    – Weezer
    – Los Lonely Boys

    just some older bands that I’ve always enjoyed. In the past I’ve shied away from larger stadium type shows, but I may re-think that this year. I believe Weezer is already scheduled to appear at Dodger stadium this year. I may do that one.

    It’s a little more costly, but – will also probably look at shows in Vegas, which is only a few hours away. I prefer smaller venues of a few thousand or less. Los Lonely Boys and Incubus should be ready to find at smaller venues, for 311 and Weezer though I’ll probably have to see them at a larger site.

  4. I think trading Randle would be a great move. If he makes the All-Star game he is going to be worth a lot and I think what we could get for him would be better than keeping him. I’d really like to see more of Toppin so we have a better idea of what we have before the offseason. We also have Knox, who while still flawed was showing some things before he was benched and would be best as a stretch 4. Maybe neither amounts to much but we have two young players on rookie contracts that both play the 4, let’s trade Randle for some assets and see if they can fill the void.

    Also, trade Rivers and Payton, and maybe one of Bullock or Burks. Move IQ to the starting lineup, get Frank some burn. We need to play our young players as much as possible before the season is over to get a better handle on what we have. If we can make the playoffs while getting good long looks at Toppin, IQ, Barrett, Mitch, Knox, and Frank then I feel good. So far we are doing half of that but Toppin needs 20+ minutes a game and Knox and Frank need to be in the rotation. If we end the season without really assessing what we have it would be a huge missed opportunity even if we make the playoffs.

  5. Basketball wise, we need to find someone 26 or younger who may be with their second team and first or second contract and just performing okay at the moment.

    We have a ton of cap space, but, for where our team is at – we still need to be bargain hunting. Hopefully we can sift through enough numbers to find our future point guard.

  6. I’d prefer to have a point guard running the offense, but very hard to argue against Julius’ production/impact this season.

    I just don’t see any scenario where we flip him for someone better; maybe, but he’s playing really well and disciplined for Thibs. I can’t imagine Thibs is going to want to let him go either.

    We need a starting point guard. This off season I was ready to trade Julius to Utah in some kind of deal for Conley. I’m glad we didn’t. I have no idea who that guy is, but, with what we currently have going on – a good starting one will move us from about a .400 to .450 winning percentage to about .600 to .650 winning percentage. Heck, we might even win a playoff series in the next few years.

  7. Can’t believe there are still people advocating trading Randle for “assets” to give Obi and Knox more playing time. Oh yeah and lets play Frank too! Some people here are masochists.

  8. Trading for Beal will gut the team just as the Carmelo’s trade did, so “no, thank you”,
    Oladipo is a free agent, if you really want him wait and use your money, same goes for Lavine.

  9. As i was one of the guys advocating for one more tanking season, i think you all know the answer before i even say it… but no, no assets going out, please.
    I think our backup team is great – DRose, IQ, Burks, Obi, Noel (now w Taj, we’re a little weaker, might be better to think about it).
    As for our starters, i think SF+PF+C we’re in great shape also – RJ, Julius, Mitch.
    The problem is our starting backcourt – Payton and Bullock. And unlike you guys i don’t think Payton is a worst problem than Bullock, i’d replace both if i could. But it’d need to be a low cost move, something like pairing each of them with one of Knox, Frank and Rivers (players that are out of the rotation).
    Thought about JJ Reddick, in a deal like this – Bullock + Frank for JJ. But then looked at his stats this year and he’s probably washed, so no. And he’s 36. Is there a JJ Reddick type that we could grab buying low?
    As for Payton, if Bullock’s position is improved in a trade, maybe keep starting him wouldn’t be the same problem it is now. But in his case, i would try to lure Lonzo here, with Payton+Knox. I think NO would accept that package and Lonzo is at least as good as Payton defensively, but a much better playmaker (he wouldn’t shut out RJ like Payton does, which annoys me a lot).

  10. Trying to think what the next move is, especially with all the cap space upcoming. Even assuming we hold onto Randle at 19.8MM (and assuming we don’t sign an extension with Mitch that eats into space and that Iggy is a goner) and that we make both 1st round picks, we are still going to have something like $50MM left in space with RJ, Randle, Mitch, Quickley, Knox, and Toppin, and cap holds.

    would anyone be surprised if CP3 opts out of his final year in PHX and signs a, say 3 year $80MM contract? Or Kyle Lowry for, say, 2 years 50MM? I am not necessarily saying these are good contracts, but it’d be something to consider. Both are playing at an extremely high level, and those contracts would both end hopefully if/when Quickley is really ready to assume starting PG status (and before he hopefully gets expensive).

  11. I don’t think mgmt should consider any FAs or incoming trades until after the draft. See what the deadline brings and act accordingly. Be opportunistic and win deals. Continue to fill gaps with low-cost small contracts. Keep your eye on the G-League for bargains.

  12. I don’t think mgmt should consider any FAs or incoming trades until after the draft. See what the deadline brings and act accordingly. Be opportunistic and win deals. Continue to fill gaps with low-cost small contracts. Keep your eye on the G-League for bargains.

    did you really need to let everyone know about this brilliant strategy? or are we just at the point that we need to fill out your data character quota today?

  13. Looking to ruin another thread? Last I heard you were crying to Brian in your sleep…

    Oh wait, I forgot…you don’t know when you’re being an asshole.

    I can’t wait until your next installment of “the stupidest draft takes ever.”

  14. Bullock has been starting to play a lot better though. I think he’s shooting over 40 percent from 3 the last month?

    I think the biggest issue is starting PG obviously. But I would just stay out and roll out with what they got. If they want to ship out Knox and/or Frank with another second rounder for an upgrade that’s cool but I think we just gotta roll with this. Even with Mitch out, the schedule has a lot of very winnable games ahead and the chemistry of this team is only just starting to gel. We know we’re in it most nights bc of the defense.

  15. me ruin a thread? last thread i wasn’t even talking about you specifically… it was strat and a bunch of others who were talking about quick’s college game… and you too… that’s why i didn’t quote or call you out specifically….

    yet you decide to step over the line like i deserve it…

    and brian does need to act on this because it’s multiple times that you can’t seem to drop it… and i’m tired of taking abuse…

    you can apologize this time like you actually mean it and stop being a baby or someone acts on it…. you choose….

  16. I didn’t read through that last thread but in this one, DJ, it’s your post that first went on the attack. Z-man was simply starting his opinion about what we should do in regards to trading or not trading for someone, which is directly related to the article that this thread is based on. You responded by attacking his post for no real reason. Basically just saying it’s stupid. If you want to debate it, that’s one thing, but you are the one who carried over the previous beef to this new thread.

  17. djphan: that’s why i didn’t quote or call you out specifically….

    You cut and pasted my post in your comment. Man, you are so socially inept I really feel sorry for you. Do you really go through life having no awareness of when you are being an asshole?

  18. swiftandabundant:
    I didn’t read through that last thread but in this one, DJ, it’s your post that first went on the attack. Z-man was simply starting his opinion about what we should do in regards to trading or not trading for someone, which is directly related to the article that this thread is based on. You responded by attacking his post for no real reason. Basically just saying it’s stupid. If you want to debate it, that’s one thing, but you are the one who carried over the previous beef to this new thread.

    Yet another poster calling you out for starting shit out of the blue. How many will it take?

  19. From what I can see so far, the NYK front office are not idiots. 5 or 10 years ago, they would let a team (like the Nuggets) back the truck up and take whatever they wanted for a trade like this. Now, they actually have the Voltron of front office staffs, guys with a lot of juice and power around the league who will not want to be played for suckers. They barely flexed their muscles and got D-Rose, an acquisition that is looking like a stroke of genius, for pretty much nothing. Let’s wait and see what these guys come up with before we declare the end of the rebuild.

  20. It’s the day after Valentine’s and people are still bickering over nothing like yesterday on Valentine’s Day? Do us all a favor and find the one you love. And if you don’t have that someone then find someone new.

  21. swiftandabundant:
    Bullock has been starting to play a lot better though. I think he’s shooting over 40 percent from 3 the last month?

    I think the biggest issue is starting PG obviously. But I would just stay out and roll out with what they got. If they want to ship out Knox and/or Frank with another second rounder for an upgrade that’s cool but I think we just gotta roll with this. Even with Mitch out, the schedule has a lot of very winnable games ahead and the chemistry of this team is only just starting to gel. We know we’re in it most nights bc of the defense.

    It’s hard to read whether mgmt or Thibs view Payton as a major problem. I mean, Frank played pretty well in a short stretch before he got hurt…you would think they’d give him a look. Or that they’d move one of the others ahead of him on the depth chart, which might happen if they start losing. It’s even possible that recently playing teams not at full strength has helped Payton’s cause.

    So long as we are playing well and winning some games, I think the current rotation is pretty stable, barring injuries.

  22. mj1:
    From what I can see so far, the NYK front office are not idiots. 5 or 10 years ago, they would let a team (like the Nuggets) back the truck up and take whatever they wanted for a trade like this. Now, they actually have the Voltron of front office staffs, guys with a lot of juice and power around the league who will not want to be played for suckers. They barely flexed their muscles and got D-Rose, an acquisition that is looking like a stroke of genius, for pretty much nothing.Let’s wait and see what these guys come up with before we declare the end of the rebuild.

    Boy, I hope you’re right. But those Bradley Beal rumors sure had me shook. Though I am intrigued by getting Lonzo Ball on the cheap. I’d buy low on him knowing he’d be someone Thibs would at least play for his D while teams would defend on the perimeter because of his high volume of 3PAs.

  23. Ntilakilla: Boy, I hope you’re right. But those Bradley Beal rumors sure had me shook. Though I am intrigued by getting Lonzo Ball on the cheap. I’d buy low on him knowing he’d be someone Thibs would at least play for his D while teams would defend on the perimeter because of his high volume of 3PAs.

    Yeah, but think of the rumors that have blown over since even before the draft. Seems like the FO still deserves the benefit of the doubt. Ball is interesting but is he really available on the cheap? Is he just Elfrid in a different flavor?

  24. You cut and pasted my post in your comment.

    oh you’re right i did… sorry about that… but i was referring to others also since multiple people were making that argument… and in any case the point still stands that it was harmless…. or maybe we should go after BBA for this:

    Can’t believe there are still people advocating trading Randle for “assets” to give Obi and Knox more playing time.

    and yes i did carry on the beef… i want brian or someone to comment on this so we can force this guy to bury it finally… this is a recurring thing and i prefer it to stop and just letting it go doesn’t seem to work….

  25. Yet another poster calling you out for starting shit out of the blue. How many will it take?

    how about the same number of posters to tell you to quit misinterpreting me and acting like a dick? we still got a ways to go…

    or is this self awareness thing only one way for you?

  26. djphan: oh you’re right i did… sorry about that… but i was referring to others also since multiple people were making that argument…and in any case the point still stands that it was harmless…. or maybe we should go after BBA for this:

    and yes i did carry on the beef… i want brian or someone to comment on this so we can force this guy to bury it finally… this is a recurring thing and i prefer it to stop and just letting it go doesn’t seem to work….

    When you have to go through these lengths to prove you weren’t being an asshole, you were probably being an asshole.

  27. I’m pretty comfortable with where Im standing… which is why I’m asking for intervention… it doesn’t seem like you are but we knew that given the many attempts to rally others against me … and then you curse them out when they don’t…

    how much more time do you want to convince others on this before the light bulb turns on?

  28. I was going to make a point about hijacking today’s thread, but others beat me to it this morning. Ultimately I think there is discrepancy in writing style, where one actor has strong opinions, while the other actor speaks from authority real or otherwise. Nobody likes to be convinced of a take because they have less authority over the material presented.

    I too fear the Melo trade, where that enjoyable team was gutted, and did not have the assets in place to materially improve post trade. At the same time I have no reason to mistrust the current regime, except the overarching mistrust in Knicks mgmt. the last 20 years. If they spring a deal, hopefully they understand the asset exchange rate and get value.

  29. I did many times… he apologized and then just wouldn’t drop it numerous times…

    im so fucking tired of it as I’m sure many others are… I’m used to hostility on this board but this constant thing directed at me for the flimsiest of reasons is a bit much….

    and yes I’m contributing to it too because Im not just gonna take abuse… that’s why I’m proposing that the both of us get suspended for a month….

  30. Oladipo sucks. I’m not sure who is trading for him unless Hou is shedding a pick or taking on an equally bad contract.

    Beal is good, but with Dallas as a near playoff team our picks this year look pretty mediocre. I’d rather not give up future picks and continue building our platform of young players.

  31. I know there is very little chance of it happening, but I am in the trade Randle camp. He has been great this year and on a relatively low money deal. He can net us a lot of assets. You are not going to win a ring with Randle as your best player especially not in the next year and a half while he is signed. Also, no huge free agents are available next year, so enticing them with Randle has little value. I see similarities to the Morris situation last year. It was nice to have Morris last year, but way nicer to have Quickly this year.

    The strongest argument to keeping Randle is that maybe a disgruntled vet may force a trade to play for us while we maintain ~.500 winning percentage and that would not be possible without Randle. However, if we can get multiple firsts, that’s a chance i’d be willing to take.

  32. Can’t believe there are still people advocating trading Randle for “assets” to give Obi and Knox more playing time. Oh yeah and lets play Frank too! Some people here are masochists.

    It’s quite obviously unrealistic to hope for something as major as a Randle trade at this point. The merits are still perfectly debatable but it’s not happening. It’s depressing that we currently stand to have the 13th and 17th picks in this draft, but I guess we’ll just have to try to find our star(s) by other means.

    I do hope Aller and co. at least consider minor moves in pursuit of asset collection. With the play-in tournament and so many teams bunched up the deadline is shaping up to be a seller’s market. It would be a shame to pass on a first for Burks and/or Bullock, especially since the team might not be much worse for wear anyway.

    Ironically enough, the team being unexpectedly decently probably fully takes us out of the Beal sweepstakes since our 2021 pick is looking mediocre. I’m so confident we’d get outbid for him even if we badly wanted him I’m not worried about the possibility. LaVine on the other hand feels more realistic, and I think it would be a huge mistake to trade for him when he’s a free agent in 2022.

  33. Someone propose a realistic (meaning to a contending or borderline contending team say Boston) Randle trade that we would take. Because I don’t see the teams that would want him, as described, having assets that the Knicks would find desirable. You’re now talking about a slightly less than Beal level haul because of his production and contract.

  34. How about you just go away for a month? I’m perfectly happy with the current arrangement. It’s fun to point out how galactically stupid your 2020 draft takes were, especially in regard to the Quickley pick, and to see you doing backflips to this day trying to defend them.

    Or alternatively, simply don’t respond to any of my posts unless I specifically go after you. And I promise to do the same. Mostly I just skip over your drivel anyway, unless you go out of your way to give me a reason not to, like you did yesterday and today.

  35. thenoblefacehumper: It’s quite obviously unrealistic to hope for something as major a Randle trade at this point. The merits are still perfectly debatable but it’s not happening. It’s depressing that we currently stand to have the 13th and 17th picks in this draft, but I guess we’ll just have to try to find our star(s) by other means.

    I do hope Aller and co. at least consider minor moves in pursuit of asset collection. With the play-in tournament and so many teams bunched up the deadline is shaping up to be a seller’s market. It would be a shame to pass on a first for Burks and/or Bullock, especially since the team might not be much worse for wear anyway.

    Ironically enough, the team being unexpectedly decently probably fully takes us out of the Beal sweepstakes since our 2021 pick is looking mediocre. I’m so confident we’d get outbid for him even if we badly wanted him I’m not worried about the possibility. LaVine on the other hand feels more realistic, and I think it would be a huge mistake to trade for him when he’s a free agent in 2022.

    Yeah, this seems to be the situation. Randle ain’t going anywhere unless Isiah gets a gig as the GM of another team before the deadline, and it come down to the other guys. Optimistically, I’m hoping that Rose & co. are still shopping behind the scenes, or at least open to offers. There’s some logic to not “appearing” like you are aggressive sellers, as teams know that lowball offers won’t go anywhere, i.e. like they would under Mills. But who knows?

  36. Z-Man has a bully tendencies sometimes, this needs to be mentioned here while the disagreement is going for months now. So dj is right in protecting himself. That said, dj you’re not going to out bully him. See if you can find another strategy. And Z-Man, take a breath, nobody cares for another fight between the two of you.

    Personally I think both of you are important contributors and I’m glad you’re here.

  37. i think maybe i’m an outlier here when it comes to drummond. i think he’s a hugely problematic if beastly player who would not help teams like boston and toronto as much as it seems when it matters most. but i’m really curious to see what happens if he ends up on a good, well coached team.

    i agree with cgreene above that as well as randle has played this year, it would be surprisingly hard to come up with a realistic trade for him even if we had a front office that was thinking in that direction.

  38. cgreene: Someone propose a realistic (meaning to a contending or borderline contending team say Boston) Randle trade that we would take.

    What’s weird about the Celts is that they don’t have any surplus first round picks any more. I frequent the C’s blogs from time to time and the natives are getting restless. I don’t think they were prepared for not having a single finals appearance to show for the pilaging of the Nets a few years ago. Now they would have to go all in to make a significant deal, meaning forgoing firsts in coming years. Danny’s head must be exploding.

  39. Trying to find a silver lining in passing on Hali, the Kings are last or second to last in almost every defensive metric. I was glancing at some of their recent box scores, and it looks like Hali has been getting roasted by opposing guards, including the legend Michael Carter-Williams.

    Now would I trade him straight up for Obi? In a nanosecond, just pointing out he has issues on the defensive end.

  40. How about you just go away for a month? I’m perfectly happy with the current arrangement. It’s fun to point out how galactically stupid your 2020 draft takes were, especially in regard to the Quickley pick, and to see you doing backflips to this day trying to defend them.

    oh for sure you must love this arrangement where you’re totally uncivil and get to be a dick with impunity…

    no i’d much rather the toxic culture you’re cultivating goes away for a little bit… that’s much better for everyone involved… including me..

  41. Ingmarrrr:
    Z-Man has a bully tendencies sometimes, this needs to be mentioned here while the disagreement is going for months now. So dj is right in protecting himself. That said, dj you’re not going to out bully him. See if you can find another strategy. And Z-Man, take a breath, nobody cares for another fight between the two of you.

    Personally I think both of you are important contributors and I’m glad you’re here.

    If I get spit on, I’m punching the spitter in the face. If that makes me a bully, whatever.

    In this case, I proposed the following solution:

    Or alternatively, simply don’t respond to any of my posts unless I specifically go after you. And I promise to do the same.

    If that’s not good enough, I’m fine with the status quo.

  42. I would consider LaVine for the right price. Not a great defender, but he’s having a breakthrough year offensively, which means he probably won’t come cheap. In fact, Randle and LaVine are kind of following the same trajectory, although I think LaVine is a year younger.

    But the main problem for this team is starting point guard, and there just aren’t many available. But it looks like there are some vet options available this coming offseason (Lowry, Conley, Schroeder) that Thibs would want, and with the GLeague draft prospects heating up, this year’s draft is looking like it will bring some top talent, so it’s probably best to wait until after the draft to make trades.

    But what’s interesting to me will be impending free agent trades, like UFA Lowry or RFA Lonzo if those happen… what is a guy like Lonzo worth to NO if they really don’t want to resign him? If a team calls NO’s bluff, he can probably be had for a discount.

  43. d-mar: Now would I trade him straight up for Obi? In a nanosecond, just pointing out he has issues on the defensive end.

    Maybe, but it’s a lot less of a no-brainer than it was a month ago. I’d really have to think on it.

  44. I agree it’s hard/impossible to find a contender who might want Randle, and as much as I love what the guy has done this season that should probably make everyone think hard about his viability as a core piece. So much of his talent goes to waste if he isn’t a primary playmaker, and he wouldn’t be on any contender you could imagine.

    He’s good at keeping our offense above dead last while our defense win some games for us, but that’s very different than making a contender’s offense better (or at least so much better the price in terms of trade assets and his contract is worth it over the JaVales McGee of the world).

    Largely as an academic exercise, the best I can do is a scenario in which the Lakers are panicked about AD’s achilles and trade Matthews/KCP/some picks for Randle.

  45. Don’t get me wrong..I’d LOVE to have Beal on this team. But he’s gonna gut the team like Melo did- plus take draft assets away. If we are to make another trade, I’d rather it be for someone like Luke Kennard, Kevin Huerter, or Rajan Rondo. Another ancillary improvement because I like the development of the team thus far. I’d even take Eric Bledsoe if it meant moving Payton.

  46. Trying to find a silver lining in passing on Hali, the Kings are last or second to last in almost every defensive metric. I was glancing at some of their recent box scores, and it looks like Hali has been getting roasted by opposing guards, including the legend Michael Carter-Williams.

    Now would I trade him straight up for Obi? In a nanosecond, just pointing out he has issues on the defensive end.

    yeah i mean i don’t think any of this is right. you can’t tell much about guard/wing defense from 2 dozen games of team results and looking at random opponent scoring totals. for example hali guarded mcw for only about 10 possessions that game and he went 1-3 for 2 pts zero assists and 2 tovs. hali looks like a solid defender, preternaturally smart for a rookie. bagley on the other hand has a ways to go to even be a bad nba defender. buddy is also pretty fucking bad tho he runs around a lot.

  47. RE: that Lakers Idea..

    I’d make it if were Randle and Bullock for Matthews & Kuzma and a 1st

  48. Z-Man has a bully tendencies sometimes, this needs to be mentioned here while the disagreement is going for months now. So dj is right in protecting himself.

    and why do ppl just put up with it? hes been doing this to multiple ppl and for as much as he posts thats pretty ridiculous…

    i’m never bullied anyone here and im probably one of the few who’s maintained respectfulness even in the most heated of arguments…. even when the whole blog was against me during the whole rj ordeal….

    but for this one im putting my foot down until someone in power comments or take action… its simply happened too many times for it to be let go again… because no im not fine with this current arrangement….

  49. If I get spit on, I’m punching the spitter in the face. If that makes me a bully, whatever.

    wow i wonder who said this to you…. who could it be?

  50. swiftandabundant: Bullock has been starting to play a lot better though. I think he’s shooting over 40 percent from 3 the last month?

    Yeah Swift, i stand corrected. As i was in a hurry, i relied on the good old eye test… (and here comes Jowles to trash me! eheh) …he just doesn’t seem to be playing well when i watch him play, but yeah, last 10 games he played he’s with a .478 3P% and that’s great. Payton is the only problem then.

  51. There are problems with all of Beal, Oladipo, and LaVine.

    1. LaVine scores, but imo he’s a clear big negative on defense. I’m also leery of guys that seem to put up good numbers on bad teams. A truly top level offensive talent can usually win some games all by himself unless the rest of the team is atrocious. The Bulls always look like they have some decent pieces but they are always bad. I question if LaVine’s contribution on offense is even as good as it looks also.

    2. Beal is similar to LaVine, but I’ve seen Beal play good defense on occasion. With him I wonder how much of it that he’s playing in a hopeless situation. He may be capable.

    3. Oladipo can defend, but on offense he has that one big year surrounded a lot of mediocrity. With him it’s hard to tell whether that was a fluke year, the injuries have taken a toll, or he’s just working his way back to peak form. That’s a risky trade.

    Out of the three I’m a hard pass on Lavine unless he was gifted to us. I just don’t like him. I’d like to see more of Oladipo before pulling the trigger and again I wouldn’t give up too much. Beal is the best option, but it would cost a lot. I don’t care that much about giving up 2 first rounders. It’s highly unlikely we are going to find another Beal in the draft with our picks and we’ll have to wait 5 years anyway. But if we gave up a ton of talent plus the picks, that would be a hard no. The only player I’d be mildly tempted to give up is Mitch. I like Mitch, but I think he’s overhyped here and we have a decent substitute in Nerlens. Nerlens + Beal is better than Mitch and picks in mid teens and 20s. The tough players to get are the stars and we aren’t drafting top 3 anytime soon.

  52. If Randle keeps hitting 3s at a solid rate, there are going to be plenty of teams interested in him. Who wouldn’t want a 26 year old PF that can score on good volume at above average efficiency, hit the 3, rebound very well for the position, handle the ball and make plays if necessary, and defend at least adequately other than a team already solid at the position and people that like losing?

    Plus, I think most teams will understand that if the spacing was better he’d be even more efficient than he has been in NY this year. He proved he could do that in the past and so far has a better 3 and mid range shot than he had back them. He also looks better on defense now than he has in the past. He was a good player before. Now he’s a very good player. I’m not sure where he’s a good fit, but he fits really well in NY now. If Obi is the heir apparent, he’s got a long way to go.

  53. ptmilo:
    Trying to find a silver lining in passing on Hali, the Kings are last or second to last in almost every defensive metric. I was glancing at some of their recent box scores, and it looks like Hali has been getting roasted by opposing guards, including the legend Michael Carter-Williams.


    Now would I trade him straight up for Obi? In a nanosecond, just pointing out he has issues on the defensive end.

    yeah i mean i don’t think any of this is right.you can’t tell much about guard/wing defense from 2 dozen games of team results and looking at random opponent scoring totals.for example hali guarded mcw for only about 10 possessions that game and he went 1-3 for 2 pts zero assists and 2 tovs.hali looks like a solid defender, preternaturally smart for a rookie.bagley on the other hand has a ways to go to even be a bad nba defender.buddy is also pretty fucking bad tho he runs around a lot.

    Well, if you’re going to tell me 2 dozen games isn’t enough of a sample size, then we also shouldn’t make too much out of Hali shooting 45.2% from 3. That’s very likely unsustainable

  54. Story Time:
    I grew up in a small family. Me, ma, sis and dad. My father was in and out a lot. My sister spent a bunch of time living in a hospital (real bad asthmatic). A lot of the time it was just me and ma. I tell the god kids now that growing up I spent a bunch of time homeless, either living with friends or other family. Ma’s done well for herself, and I’m pretty comfortable at the moment, so the kids probably have a hard time imagining it. To be honest, I don’t remember a whole lot from those times.

    When I was around 10 or so we were all together living out on the island in Holbrook. My sister’s got me by a few years; and, like most kids – we fought a bunch. Ma would just yell and scream at us. My father had a different approach. He was one of those folks whom seem to enjoy ritualized violence against children and would either beat us with a belt, metal hairbrush or take us each by the hair and smash our heads together. Yeah, I remember that :)

    Thankfully though, at some point I was able to pick up on the anger of my mother and father and learned to stop fighting and shut the hell up once they were angry. Unfortunately my poor sister never really got that lesson. She was just filled with “righteous” anger and would try to make her point about how the fight wasn’t her fault. Needless to say, it just pissed off my parents even more and got her deeper in to trouble.

    Point of this story is: if there’s a bunch of cats or kids fighting and screeching – no one gives a shit who’s right, wrong, or fucking righteous. It’s just an unpleasant noise and they want it to stop. It’s irritating and fucking up the general good vibe we all got going on.

    It is selfish behavior. Control yourselves – please. Or, I’ll be forced to share more childhood stories :)

  55. In the past 5 years or so, among all of the regulars and excluding those who have been banned, I’ve had some very heated and lengthy interactions with Hubert, tnfh, strat, Bruno, and Ntilakilla. Seems like all is good between me and those guys, without apologies or interventions beyond some gentle nudges from the community. I wonder what’s different here…maybe it’s one party refusing to take responsibility for his role in the tiff, and claiming that he’s one of the few on this blog who has maintained respectfulness, even when he’s been called out by multiple posters for not doing so.

    This is a sports blog, chief. Seems like you are all good with people bashing the shit out of strat on a regular basis. Maybe you could learn something from him.

  56. Phatt Gandalf is Big Chiefin’:

    Control yourselves – please. Or, I’ll be forced to share more childhood stories :)

    I dig your stories, so it’s a pretty idle threat. I proposed a solution….a non-aggression pact if you will. It seems that djphan’s skin is too thin for that.

  57. If Randle keeps hitting 3s at a solid rate, there are going to be plenty of teams interested in him. Who wouldn’t want a 26 year old PF that can score on good volume at above average efficiency, hit the 3, rebound very well for the position, handle the ball and make plays if necessary, and defend at least adequately other than a team already solid at the position and people that like losing?

    The reason ptmilo asked about specifics is because it is in fact a lot harder than you think to find a team that would give up assets for him.

    Randle is better than the bigs who sign for scraps every year, but a team trading for him has to think he’s so much better than, say, Richaun Holmes that he’s worth the assets you trade for him AND his current contract.

    You need to find a team with a pretty specific need for a high usage big. If it’s so easy, go ahead and name your trade!

  58. It is selfish behavior. Control yourselves – please.

    as mostly an observor of this behavior while others went at it over the years… i agree… but i’m not going to sit quiet while taking abuse…

    doesnt affect anyone else besides me… but this is more than a few times…. the whole paul pierce thing escalated because of him and others were parrotting him… and i kept my cool throughout despite the attacks… nobody else cares but thats why i have to speak up and make a stink and i cant believe i have to do that to get someone to not even act civil… but to not just be an asshole repeatedly…

  59. thenoblefacehumper: He’s good at keeping our offense above dead last

    Is our bad offense more a function of Thibs’ coaching than of our players? We have the lowest pace in the league, doesn’t that hurt our ORtg and help our DRtg?

    thenoblefacehumper: Largely as an academic exercise, the best I can do is a scenario in which the Lakers are panicked about AD’s achilles and trade Matthews/KCP/some picks for Randle.

    Isn’t their pick cupboard pretty bare after the AD trade? Doesn’t seem like they would have enough to offer to justify derailing the team’s current trajectory, at least not in Rose/Thibs’s mindset.

  60. Is our bad offense more a function of Thibs’ coaching than of our players? We have the lowest pace in the league, doesn’t that hurt our ORtg and help our DRtg?

    No, because both measures are per 100 possessions.

    Isn’t their pick cupboard pretty bare after the AD trade? Doesn’t seem like they would have enough to offer to justify derailing the team’s current trajectory, at least not in Rose/Thibs’s mindset.

    Like I said I find the whole scenario unlikely, but I believe they can trade their 2022 first because their 2023 pick obligation is a swap with New Orleans as opposed to owing it outright.

  61. djphan: the whole paul pierce thing escalated because of him and others were parrotting him…

    Do you really think I have that much power over posters here that they would mindlessly parrot me?

  62. DJ ain’t like you Z-man. This is just another Monday morning for you. I’m pretty sure confrontation isn’t much of big deal to you at all. I would absolutely love to sit in on a holiday meal with you and your family. I have a feeling it would be very natural for me.

    This situation is something else entirely for DJ. It’s a significant life moment for them. It’s an identity level threat and struggle. This isn’t a rational situation for them. It’s very personal.

    It’s going to take significant effort for DJ to let this go. I hope they can.

  63. spat scouting report:
    djphan — offensively has some tricks up his sleeve despite modest experience vs hi level competition. makes up for lack of explosive athleticism with proven ability to draw fouls from almost any spot on the floor. lack of fluidity can be a problem on forays to the rim, but syncopated change of pace game often leaves the defense off-balance. not necessarily a willing passer out of double teams, often preferring to use up valuable timeouts. never gives up his dribble. excellent free throw shooter. elite stamina.

    defensively lacks the wingspan and lateral quickness to stay with aggressive offensive players. but makes up for it with elite persistence. absolutely will not back down in the post, even on switches. fourth in all of juco in charges drawn. effectively targets opponents in foul trouble. set all time walters state record receiving 7 technical fouls for intentional flopping. elite defensive recognition thanks to hours in the video basement but could improve pnr communication. tendency to get caught appealing to ref on non call instead of getting back in transition.

    z-man — offensively dominated d3 despite anachronistic game. longest made shot in 3 years was from 6 feet. claims it was seven. led d3 in offensive rebounds, and 1s, and flagrant fouls. first draft prospect on record to foul out of 3 on 3 pro day session. has a variety of post moves and surprisingly nimble footwork, but against weaker opponents often prefers brute force. capable of making timely pass to an open shooter, but known to freeze out inconsistent teammates.

    defensive game centered around creating tovs to generate offense. elite pressure defender. lives in the passing lane. all time oglethorpe leader in transition dunks. has never allowed a continuation bucket. removed from 17 jump balls for excessive jockeying. led all of d3 in shots swatted after the whistle. tendency to go for pump fakes. needs work on zone defense.

  64. Well, if you’re going to tell me 2 dozen games isn’t enough of a sample size, then we also shouldn’t make too much out of Hali shooting 45.2% from 3. That’s very likely unsustainable

    i agree that we shouldn’t make too much of 124 3pa. plenty of noise in there yet. but these two things are different universes. the sample size needed to attribute team defensive rating to a single player on that team (and a non big in particular) is just massively larger than what is needed for something like a player’s individual shooting statistic. these two things are literally orders of magnitude apart in the amount of information they likely contain.

  65. Well played, PGiBC!

    Hali has been great, but I’m encouraged by Obi’s recent play. And aside from the periodic brain fart, his defense has been solidly a bit below average, which NO ONE expected.

    If he eventually straightens out the 3pt shot, he will become a legit rotation player — a solid result for the #8 pick in a “weak” draft.

    The good thing about Randle is that we have another year to move him if we want. I think he can be a legit asset for any team, and not just as the primary distributor. He rebounds, body’s guys on D, and is sharp from midrange. Honestly, RJ seems like the odd man out at this point. But being so young, he has time to improve.

    Heck, maybe Mitch is the one who becomes expendable? Especially if we somehow luck into Evan Mobley. Yearly lottery results really tend to clarify these discussions.

  66. – According to RPM LaVine is the dead worst defending 2-guard in the game today, such a net negative there on defense (-2.86) that it all but wipes out his offensive production (-2.97) as all but a wash.

    – Also, they falsely have IQ down as a 2-guard despite him playing the majority of his minutes at the point. He has a -0.70 DRPM. It’s a far better score than LeMelo’s -1.77 and Haliburton’s -1.88.

  67. ptmilo: z-man — offensively dominated d3 despite anachronistic game. longest made shot in 3 years was from 6 feet. claims it was seven. led d3 in offensive rebounds, and 1s, and flagrant fouls. first draft prospect on record to foul out of 3 on 3 pro day session. has a variety of post moves and surprisingly nimble footwork, but against weaker opponents often prefers brute force. capable of making timely pass to an open shooter, but known to freeze out inconsistent teammates.

    defensive game centered around creating tovs to generate offense. elite pressure defender. lives in the passing lane. all time oglethorpe leader in transition dunks. has never allowed a continuation bucket. removed from 17 jump balls for excessive jockeying. led all of d3 in shots swatted after the whistle. tendency to go for pump fakes. needs work on zone defense.

    There’s a poster on this board who has played with me and would vouch for most of this…maybe not the longest shot made stuff…but definitely the part about not allowing continuation buckets.

  68. I like both of you, djphan and Z-man, and enjoy both of your contributions to the board. I would be sad to see either of you leave.

  69. Also just got started on season 6 of the Sopranos. The ending to Join the Club was about as close to perfect as television can get, IMO. Moved me to tears, if I’m being honest.

  70. Do you really think I have that much power over posters here that they would mindlessly parrot me?

    well when you repeatedly misinterpreted me even after clarification and continued until you got caught by multiple people… yea… that’s exactly what they said…

    It’s going to take significant effort for DJ to let this go. I hope they can.

    what do you think happened for 3 months? you think i’m new to confrontation on this board? how long have you been reading here?

  71. ptmilo:
    spat scouting report:

    z-man — offensively dominated d3 despite anachronistic game.longest made shot in 3 years was from 6 feet. claims it was seven.led d3 in offensive rebounds, and 1s, and flagrant fouls.first draft prospect on record to foul out of 3 on 3 pro day session.has a variety of post moves and surprisingly nimble footwork, but against weaker opponents often prefers brute force.capable of making timely pass to an open shooter, but known to freeze out inconsistent teammates.

    defensive game centered around creating tovs to generate offense.elite pressure defender.lives in the passing lane.all time oglethorpe leader in transition dunks.has never allowed a continuation bucket. removed from 17 jump balls for excessive jockeying.led all of d3 in shots swatted after the whistle.tendency to go for pump fakes.

    Dang, I used to play against this dude at the Central Park courts near 86th street.** Took more
    guys out of their games than Paul Holmgren did for the fabled Broad Street Bullies.
    If this continues, I can supplement @Big Chefn’s anecdotes with PBIS* links and that failing
    I can moderate a Zoom Restorative Circle*.
    ____________________
    * Esoteric Educator Stuff
    ** I posted this before Z-Man’s post about actually playing with a KB poster. Mine is more of an archetype. Though I hereby challenge Z-Man to a game of 1 on 1 when the snow is off the ground.

  72. If i were the Celtics, i’d still go for Randle with the trade exception, as with him they’d have a shot at the finals, and without i just can’t see how they can overcome MIL and BRK.
    But if there’s no answer to cgreene about what possible Randle deals are out there, how about what the Knicks should be asking for him?

  73. I like both of you, djphan and Z-man, and enjoy both of your contributions to the board. I would be sad to see either of you leave.

    This is my only opinion on the matter as well

  74. how long have you been reading here?

    for a little while now…i wish you the best dj…

  75. I’ve had some very heated and lengthy interactions with Hubert, tnfh, strat, Bruno, and Ntilakilla. Seems like all is good between me and those guys, without apologies or interventions beyond some gentle nudges from the community

    Actually, since you referenced me I do feel it incumbent to mention that you too have personally attacked me in much the same way has you have djphan, stooping to calling me an “asshole” for simply disagreeing with you. The only reason its “good” with me is because I personally don’t have time for ad hominem belligerence so I just let it die. But if we’re looking at a common denominator here, the issue seems to be you in all of these nasty little spats. Perhaps you should ruminate upon this fact for awhile in a way that suggests a greater sense of self-awareness.

  76. ess-dog: Hali has been great, but I’m encouraged by Obi’s recent play. And aside from the periodic brain fart, his defense has been solidly a bit below average, which NO ONE expected.

    I’m still holding out hope for Obi, he’s raw but plays bigger and longer than I thought he would. Still hasn’t done anything consistently other than not try to do too much, which is sort of a positive I guess.

    Honestly, I don’t think RJ, Obi, IQ or Mitch are going anywhere. As to Randle, the consensus seems to be that there isn’t a team willing to give up what would be equal value for an all-star level relative young PF on a reasonable contract. That’s why I agree that he probably isn’t going anywhere. Seems like the braintrust is reveling in the positive press and commentary from players and coaches that the team is generating lately. And who knows what WWW and Rose are schmoozing up behind the scenes?

  77. I think there would be a market for Randle.

    Pheonix – Crowder + one of their good forwards Johnson/Bridges + filler minimum contract and a 1st for Randle
    Charlotte – Zeller + Washington + 2 1sts for Randle
    Atlanta – Snell + Collins for Randle
    Sacramento – Joseph + Parker + 2 1sts for Randle and Rivers

    These are just a couple of quick possibilities. These are just examples but I think that would be around the ballpark of what we could get. There are a lot of teams on the playoff bubble and Randle would be a big improvement to raise one of them up out of the fray.

  78. You need to find a team with a pretty specific need for a high usage big. If it’s so easy, go ahead and name your trade!

    Just off the top of my head, Milwaukee, Boston, Portland, and Denver could all use a PF/C hybrid that can pass, shoot, and lead the break. Honestly, I don’t even think Thibs’ schemes are fully utilizing Randle. I think he could be even better in an offense that features more ball/player movement.

    The real issue is what you can get back from those teams that would make a Randle trade worthwhile. I suppose it depends on how you view their youngsters/draft picks. Like is Bol Bol/RJ Hampton on the table? Giles/Trent Jr.? The Bucks don’t have much but the Celtics have picks.

    I just think Thibs values Randle more than what he could get back in kids, and Rose is probably aligned with him on that.

  79. Randle is better than the bigs who sign for scraps every year, but a team trading for him has to think he’s so much better than, say, Richaun Holmes that he’s worth the assets you trade for him AND his current contract.

    You need to find a team with a pretty specific need for a high usage big. If it’s so easy, go ahead and name your trade!

    I know we’re just discussing theories – to me, Randle (this year) is the ingredient you look to upgrade once you have all your other ingredients (better starting PG and starting shooting SG/SF) and the team becomes legitimately good.

  80. Ntilakilla: Actually, since you referenced me I do feel it incumbent to mention that you have personally attacked me in much the same way has you have djphan, stooping to calling me an “asshole” for simply disagreeing with you. The only reason its good with me is because I personally don’t have time for ad hominem belligerence. But if we’re looking at a common denominator here, the issue seems to be you in all of these nasty little spats. Perhaps you should ruminate upon this fact for awhile in a way that suggests a greater sense of self-awareness.

    Considering that you were actually banned from P&T for being vile and overly-belligerent, and they have a much higher tolerance level for that shit than the moderators here, I would suggest that your characterization of our beef is a bit one-sided.

  81. ess-dog: Heck, maybe Mitch is the one who becomes expendable? Especially if we somehow luck into Evan Mobley. Yearly lottery results really tend to clarify these discussions.

    I still think Mitch can develop more and be a terrific player, but i’ve been thinking about it too. The time’s running out and the developments to his game are quite few to project an all-star play in his future. So what i’ve been thinking is, if we get a pick that it’s not too low, like an 8th pick, is it possible to trade up for Mobley with a package of Mitch + 8th pick? Some dumb team like the Cavs (“oh, we already have Jarrett Allen, we don’t need Mobley”) would do it, no?

  82. I’ve had some very heated and lengthy interactions with Hubert, tnfh, strat, Bruno, and Ntilakilla. Seems like all is good between me and those guys, without apologies or interventions beyond some gentle nudges from the community

    so we’re just supposed to move on while you repeatedly have a panic attack over any disagreement with multiple posters?

    strat can defend himself…. i’m defending myself…. and people shouldn’t repeatedly have to turn the other cheek when you post at fat man in mom’s basement levels of frequency that you get into these confrontations quite fucking often….

    so you can just take what you give and silently move on like you expect everyone else does for you…

  83. StatMuse @statmuse:
    Zach LaVine tonight:

    46 PTS , 7 REB , 4 AST , 17-25 FG , 9-14 3P

    He moves to second for most 45-point games in Bulls franchise history with 4 (Jordan is first with 73).

    Is this tweet hilarious or what? I’ve come to it because the link talked about Lavine and Jordan on the same sentence… got me curious! :D

  84. Considering that you were actually banned from P&T for being vile and overly-belligerent, and they have a much higher tolerance level for that shit than the moderators here, I would suggest that your characterization of our beef is a bit one-sided.

    man.. you invoke other posters and get called out on it and then you lash back… again…

    why do you get into the confrontations so often and why does it keep escalating with you?

    why are you the self proclaimed common denominator in this?

    who the fuck has had a problem with me in the whole time i’ve posted here? you’re the only one!

  85. This beef is old and yet still surprisingly spicy.

    Seems to have taken over the board once again. I honestly don’t get it but hopefully you guys can’t sort it out and move on.

    PTMilo- That was really funny. Elite persistence indeed.

  86. dj — I don’t know that I have a “beef” with you, but I have found your serial references to me as an attention-seeking troll pretty close to the zenith of non-self awareness.

    Z-Man’s thing with me is to somewhat routinely hit reasoned speculation with “you’re just making shit up now,” which I mean yeah dude, what I was saying was obviously just my opinion but it’s typically backed up.

    Neither one of y’all, at least in basketball internet terms, is exactly what we’d call “bristling with charm.” But I’m not one to let a good catfight bug me too, too much, so carry on.

  87. Sorry dude, you’re the one rehashing things ad nauseum. In the interim, I’ve been having civil dialogue with other posters as I mostly always do. You started shit yesterday and started shit today. For me, every day is a clean slate. I was hoping that Brian starting a new thread last night was enough of a hint that he wanted us to move on. Yet you just can’t drop it.

    I’ll try again tomorrow. Let’s see if you are willing to go along with the non-aggression pact for the sake of the board.

  88. E, all merc’d out:
    dj — I don’t know that I have a “beef” with you, but I have found your serial references to me as an attention-seeking troll pretty close to the zenith of non-self awareness.

    Z-Man’s thing with me is to somewhat routinely hit reasoned speculation with “you’re just making shit up now,” which I mean yeah dude, what I was saying was obviously just my opinion but it’s typically backed up.

    Neither one of y’all, at least in basketball internet terms, is exactly what we’d call “bristling with charm.” But I’m not one to let a good catfight bug me too, too much, so carry on.

    E, you take a lot of heat from a lot of posters, I can’t imagine that you think my responses stand out very much.

  89. to me, Randle (this year) is the ingredient you look to upgrade once you have all your other ingredients (better starting PG and starting shooting SG/SF) and the team becomes legitimately good.

    Finding legitimate talent has been extremely difficult for the Knicks’ FO. Julius is currently averaging: 22 pts, 11 rebounds and 5 assists. He’s having a career year in a significant role on a team that should make the playoffs.

    For me, the question becomes future contract value (our new FO seems to have this part figured out) and sustainability. In this case, I’d subscribe to holding on to that bird in the hand.

    I’m not overly optimistic, but – we need need a starting point guard. The only way I could see letting Julius go is if the transaction directly results in that. At this point of the season – I can’t imagine a team giving up a starting point guard with 24 or so of them trying to make the playoffs.

  90. Z-Man’s thing with me is to somewhat routinely hit reasoned speculation with “you’re just making shit up now,” which I mean yeah dude, what I was saying was obviously just my opinion but it’s typically backed up.

    For the record: I would just like to point out – I’m pretty much just making shit up to :)

  91. No way I’m going to count the Knicks staggering into the same lowball 8 seed that’s in the shitty East every single year as “Randle leading a team into the playoffs.” That goes almost double in this freakazoid, no fans, COVID absences year. I’d suggest the board join me in not falling prey to that illusion.

  92. I’ll try again tomorrow. Let’s see if you are willing to go along with the non-aggression pact for the sake of the board.

    we’ve done this song and dance before….. i’ve had to make you apologize… and i thought you were serious… and it’s like it never happened… not having it again since everyone knows you’re incapable of not letting the internet know what you’re thinking in any particular moment…

    you brought up the past… and it’s you who’s the common demoninator in all these spats that take up all the oxygen in the room…. was someone talking about repeated selfish behavior? hmmm…

    after the first handful of times with me i let it go… my patience has now worn thin…. and i’m asking for the moderators to comment or act or else this will continue….

  93. Phatt Gandalf is Big Chiefin’: For the record: I would just like to point out – I’m pretty much just making shit up to :)

    at least tell me the “take the belt to us” part was true…i was very much relating to that one…another bonding experience for us…

  94. Is the reasoning behind trading our best player that Randle will regress towards his mean?
    Is he standing in the way of other players’ greatness?

  95. ptmilo: spat scouting report:

    If pt continues to recap their games it could make dj vs Z-Man almost enjoyable. Kind of like Farfa’s recaps of last year’s shit show. Keep going, friends, you’re doing amazing, spit on!

  96. djphan: after the first handful of times with me i let it go… my patience has now worn thin…. and i’m asking for the moderators to comment or act or else this will continue….

    No problem, I’ll continue it as long as you like, It’ll actually be fun to rub your horrible takes about IQ, RJ, etc. in your face over and over again. Just so the board knows, I’ll only respond to your posts if they are directed at me personally, as they were yesterday and today. Which will be tough, considering how much stupid shit you say and how much work you put into determining things like Devon Dotson should have been drafted #9 and LaMelo at #13 and that picking IQ at #25 was indicative of inept management. I have confidence that others will pick up the slack.

  97. now that blake has joined drummond on “out for delivery” tracking status, we should take a moment to reflect on the clippers aptitude slash luck on giving him that massively risky 5 yr deal. they managed to flip him for, essentially, sga, kennard, two firsts and two seconds. pretty good return for a max guy that, it turned out, had a year and a half left of good basketball but 4 1/2 yrs left of max money. blake was really good that first year in detroit. i don’t even think he helps a good team making the minimum now, tho i’m guessing if he’s bought out he will find a rotation spot.

  98. Ingmarrrr: If pt continues to recap their games it could make dj vs Z-Man almost enjoyable. Kind of like Farfa’s recaps of last year’s shit show. Keep going, friends, you’re doing amazing, spit on!

    Always willing to be of service!

  99. “Is the reasoning behind trading our best player that Randle will regress towards his mean?
    Is he standing in the way of other players’ greatness?”

    For me is mostly timeline. The fact that we are not going to win anything with him in the next 18 months, and that he can just be resigned after that period. I don’t think it will happen or that it has to happen now on the slim chance it will happen, but i think it would be wise to collect on the value he has created.

  100. No problem, I’ll continue it as long as you like, It’ll actually be fun to rub your horrible takes about IQ, RJ, etc. in your face over and over again. Just so the board knows, I’ll only respond to your posts if they are directed at me personally, as they were yesterday and today.

    unlike you.. this isn’t fun for me…. or for anyone else which is why this keeps happening…. which is why someone needs to step in or it’s going to happen to someone else….

    it’s pretty indicative of someone who can’t seem to get most things right in their life to dig deep for any shred of self assurance that they are competent at something….

    i don’t need the internet for that self assurance or derive enjoyment from that… i haven’t even dunked on anyone for those terrible clarke vs rj takes…

    i’m pretty comfortable where i stand…. and as you were saying you were about to leave… so leave….

  101. Phatt Gandalf is Big Chiefin’: I’m not overly optimistic, but – we need need a starting point guard. The only way I could see letting Julius go is if the transaction directly results in that.

    Yeah, honesty I don’t see a team that would value Julius enough to either give us something to help us win right now better than Julius does, or would make Rose & Thibs give up on the win-now strategy. Julius is clearly the most indispensable ingredient to being competitive right now. Ditching him for anything other than an all-star level player would almost certainly be a punt on this season. It doesn’t feel like there’s any inclination to do that, especially in light of acquiring DRose for a draft pick.

  102. djphan: unlike you.. this isn’t fun for me….

    That’s the first thing you’ve gotten right today, congrats!

    djphan: and as you were saying you were about to leave… so leave….

    Unfortunately for you, I’m not going anywhere no matter how much you whine….as I said, feel free to continue, or to stop. Up to you.

  103. at least tell me the “take the belt to us” part was true…i was very much relating to that one…another bonding experience for us…

    I’ll tell ya pepper, thankfully he wasn’t around all that much, and I’m even more grateful it wasn’t near as ritualized as what adrian peterson did to his son (I hate that guy)…the belt sucked, the brush really hurt (you know, I don’t think I’ve ever seen another metal hairbrush before, I have no idea where he could have got that from) – but, the worse was getting grabbed by the hair, shook around a little, and then the anticipation of getting my skull cracked against my sister’s head…

    geez, that’s gotta be like forty-five plus years ago…I remember it hurt a lot and was a pretty violent experience…next time sis and I are together, I may see what she remembers…

  104. ptmilo: i don’t even think he helps a good team making the minimum now, tho i’m guessing if he’s bought out he will find a rotation spot.

    That’s a conversation for next year. Blake has a 38.9M player option and it’s a lock he opts in. DET made that bed, now they must lie on it, and keep him one more year.

  105. Blake has a 38.9M player option and it’s a lock he opts in. DET made that bed, now they must lie on it, and keep him one more year.

    nah they wouldn’t announce they were sitting him pending a resolution unless they were already negotiating a buyout that reflects both years. but blake is probably going to have to give at least a little something back if he wants out now.

  106. Phatt Gandalf is Big Chiefin’: Finding legitimate talent has been extremely difficult for the Knicks’ FO. Julius is currently averaging: 22 pts, 11 rebounds and 5 assists. He’s having a career year in a significant role on a team that should make the playoffs.

    Would you still be saying this if the East wasn’t brutally bad with only 4 teams over .500? Because leading a team to the playoffs does sound a lot better than leading the team to the 11th seed.

    comeon: Is the reasoning behind trading our best player that Randle will regress towards his mean?
    Is he standing in the way of other players’ greatness?

    My reasoning would be that Randle playing the best season of his career is only good enough to carry a team to a mediocre record and I don’t think he fits very well next to other superstars. Better to trade him now at probably the peak of his value then to wait and muddle along in mediocrity.

    ptmilo: now that blake has joined drummond on “out for delivery” tracking status,

    I know Detroit said they’re looking to trade Griffin but I can’t imagine any team in the league would be willing to risk taking on over $38M owed to him next season. This isn’t a CP3 situation where he’s older but still good, Griffin’s totally washed due to injuries.

  107. ptmilo:
    Blake has a 38.9M player option and it’s a lock he opts in. DET made that bed, now they must lie on it, and keep him one more year.
    nah they wouldn’t announce they were sitting him pending a resolution unless they were already negotiating a buyout that reflects both years.but blake is probably going to have to give at least a little something back if he wants out now.

    They’re being nice and polite, i suppose. Cause if we do some math, what will Blake give up? Let’s say some insane money, that he won’t get when he signs for a new team, like 15M. Will DET want to have 23.9M dead money on next year’s cap?

  108. BigBlueAL:
    Can’t believe there are still people advocating trading Randle for “assets” to give Obi and Knox more playing time. Oh yeah and lets play Frank too! Some people here are masochists.

    Yeah. You tell em! Assets is another way of saying draft picks. I can see giving Obi time, but Knox and Frank are next in line after DSJr out the door.

    d-mar: I was glancing at some of their recent box scores, and it looks like Hali has been getting roasted by opposing guards, including the legend Michael Carter-Williams.

    See. That is good information. I haven’t dug into a rookie comparison. On the surface, good offense looks better than good defense. Still, Obi hasn’t shined there either.

    As for the spat, it’s just a lot of garbage to scan through to get back to Knicks talk. I really don’t understand any spats or ad hominem battles. Can’t we talk about wines and gourmet recipes when we run out of Knicks talk? It’s tiresome.

  109. Unfortunately for you, I’m not going anywhere no matter how much you whine….as I said, feel free to continue, or to stop. Up to you.

    the guy who can’t keep his cool is telling me it’s up to me?

    ok … if it’s up to me then leave…

  110. Do I have to worry about the Knicks giving up assets for Drummond now? I want to assume we can just trust this front office… but…

  111. djphan: the guy who can’t keep his cool is telling me it’s up to me?

    ok … if it’s up to me then leave…

    Nah, I can’t imagine life without your brilliant spot-on draft analysis….and I want to be here to share thoughts with you when Devon Dotson and RJ are neck-and-neck in the MVP running…

  112. There are two primary problems with Randle on our team. The first is Toppin, he was a high lottery pick, the college player of the year, and he cannot coexist with Randle. We have to move one of them soon otherwise Toppin’s value is going to keep going down as long as Randle is here and playing 36+ minutes a game. The second problem is Randle doesn’t seem like a great fit with Barrett or Robinson. His presence creates sort of a “my turn your turn thing” with Barrett, neither helping the other get easy shots and Randle never really looks for Robinson. I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would bet that Randle assists Robinson way less than Barrett or Payton despite having the ball more and getting more assists than either of them.

    Randle forces us to play slow and we don’t really have the players to maximize his effectiveness and he isn’t and shouldn’t be our focus moving forward anyway. Our focus needs to remain on Barrett, Robinson, IQ, and, to a lesser extent (at least until we know what we have), Toppin.

    As for Frank and Knox, they might be lost causes but I’d rather play them and find out for sure than play Bullock, Burks, Rose, Payton, or Rivers. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t play those players but I don’t see how cutting 20 minutes a night from the lot of them and carving out 10 minutes each for Knox and Frank would seriously jeopardize our team.

  113. ess-dog:
    Do I have to worry about the Knicks giving up assets for Drummond now?I want to assume we can just trust this front office… but…

    That would be horrifying. Now if assets are coming in….

  114. Blake Griffin is a classic example of power forward growing old quick. A lot of them do. I worry about that with Randle, though I think he is too young and healthy to immediately obsolesce. He doesn’t have Griffins injury history.

    Griffin did peak at the same age as Randle is now.

    I’d say Randle will have more of a Boozer trajectory.

  115. Griffin’s value wasn’t entirely dependent on his athleticism, but a lot of it was. Randle’s ground m-bound game will age much better, I think.

    And my guess is the only way the Knicks get involved in a Drummond deal is as a facilitating third team. Picking up assets to help Toronto or someone else fit that big salary into their cap.

  116. Nah, I can’t imagine life without your brilliant spot-on draft analysis….and I want to be here to share thoughts with you when Devon Dotson and RJ are neck-and-neck in the MVP running…

    oh cause analysis that uses buzzwords and analysis which you can’t even explain is so much better than the stuff than the folks who originated draft modeling….

    in moneyball… they were called dinosaurs…. and they went extinct not because they didn’t understand it.. but because they didn’t want to….

    and they lost their jobs and now they’re home playing monday morning qb inciting fights with internet strangers simply because they have different opinion….

  117. The problem with Toppin eventually replacing Randle is that there are pretty low odds that Toppin is going to ever be as good as Randle is right now. Randle is a pretty friggin’ productive player at the moment.

    It would make sense to trade him now while his value is high but I don’t see this front office doing that.

  118. Owen:
    Blake Griffin is a classic example of power forward growing old quick. A lot of them do.I worry about that with Randle, though I thinkhe is too young and healthy to immediately obsolesce. He doesn’t have Griffins injury history.

    Griffin did peak at the same age as Randle is now.

    I’d say Randle will have more of a Boozer trajectory.

    Randle isn’t really a high flyer, so his knees should hold up better than Blake’s. I see him in more of the Paul Millsap/David West/Zach Randolph/LMA type of big in terms of longevity. He had that one leg injury early on but has been very durable since. I certainly wouldn’t factor concerns about his longevity into extending him more than I would for any other player. It would be more about what he’s worth vs. the current market for players like him. If the 3 keeps falling and the defense keeps inching up, I’d consider something in the $24-28 mill for 3-4 years, although he’s not my kind of player. He seems at least as valuable as Gordon Hayward, and less of an injury risk. If someone wants to offer him more, consider a sign-and-trade if that’s possible. Either way, I don’t have strong feelings about keeping him vs. trading him vs. letting him go…it all depends on the deal and circumstances.

  119. Blake Griffin is a classic example of power forward growing old quick. A lot of them do. I worry about that with Randle, though I think he is too young and healthy to immediately obsolesce. He doesn’t have Griffins injury history.

    Griffin did peak at the same age as Randle is now.

    I’d say Randle will have more of a Boozer trajectory.

    blake had multiple knee injuries and probably saw it coming as he worked on his outside shot to take him through his older years… unfortunately his knees robbed him of his explosiveness before he had more years with his athleticism and outside shot…

    randle is entirely different… i think he’s more zach randolph and boozer is another good comp… these power forwards that don’t protect the paint tend to age well if they can keep their rebounding up and they develop a reliable jumper and randle has that….

    anyway… it’s way too early to think about how randle will age… a second contract will take him to 31 probably and it’s reasonable for him to be good and effective until at least that long….

  120. djphan: oh cause analysis that uses buzzwords and analysis which you can’t even explain is so much better than the stuff than the folks who originated draft modeling….

    in moneyball… they were called dinosaurs…. and they went extinct not because they didn’t understand it.. but because they didn’t want to….

    and they lost their jobs and now they’re home playing monday morning qb inciting fights with internet strangers simply because they have different opinion….

    If the end result is that your moneyball box-score data model values Devon Dotson and Killian Hayes significantly higher than LaMelo Ball, and conclude that IQ has almost no shot of being a good NBA player, I’ll stick with the “dinosaurs” who use oldfangled stuff like PPP and Synergy-based stats based on intensive video analysis. That’s cool tho, you keep right on geeksplainin’ the nuances of how to royally fuck up a critical lottery pick to whoever is interested.

  121. If the end result is that your moneyball box-score data model values Devon Dotson and Killian Hayes significantly higher than LaMelo Ball, and conclude that IQ has almost no shot of being a good NBA player, I’ll stick with the “dinosaurs” who use oldfangled stuff like PPP and Synergy-based stats based on intensive video analysis. That’s cool tho, you keep right on geeksplainin’ the nuances of how to royally fuck up a critical lottery pick to whoever is interested.

    that was my opinion… many others had different opinions… that’s why we talk about it… and nobody calls it gospel….

    the folks that were slamming the IQ pick? those were the same people you goto for analysis… as well as the draft modeling community… it was universally panned….

    yet somehow you had the secret sauce based entirely on winning the sec player of the year award.. without even watching any of his college games…. that everyone else was dead wrong…. and they weren’t even saying he had no chance… i didn’t either… it was a bad pick indicative of a bad process… many people criticize picks and they get it wrong… nobody claims to be perfect…. certainly not me over the years so why do you keep on thinking that i’m bludgeoning people over the head with it?

    you have convictions too.. and you seem to be much more of a condescending prick about it to people over the years to the point that you get personal and escalate that you get so offended that you’re wrong..

    it doesn’t bother me that i get it wrong.. i do care when someone is acting unhinged towards me and it’s a known pattern with you that you pointed out yourself… you have a problem and it’s not just that you waste your whole day spewing nonsensical opinions that doesn’t even say anything… you treat people like garbage because they have the audacity to disagree with something you care about..

    you’re a dinosaur holding on with what’s left…

  122. I think Boozer is the better comp for Randle. Ground and pound par excellence. If you aren’t a good defender as a power forward you can’t expect to hang on as long.

    There are I am sure plenty of examples but the only one that pops into my head is Karl Malone, who was pretty much the essence of durability and longevity at the power forward position. The guy played 80 plus games in every season of his career. Plus the lockout season where he was the MVP.

    LMA is taller right? Doesn’t he have a couple inches on Randle? Plays more back to the basket. Don’t really think of them as that similar.

  123. This whole thread reminds me of having a very genteel dinner party with witty repartee and discussions of art and philosophy while two of the guests copulate wildly on the table.

  124. KnickFaninChicago:

    vincoug: My reasoning would be that Randle playing the best season of his career is only good enough to carry a team to a mediocre record and I don’t think he fits very well next to other superstars. Better to trade him now at probably the peak of his value then to wait and muddle along in mediocrity.

    Ben R: There are two primary problems with Randle on our team. The first is Toppin, he was a high lottery pick, the college player of the year, and he cannot coexist with Randle. We have to move one of them soon otherwise Toppin’s value is going to keep going down as long as Randle is here and playing 36 minutes a game. The second problem is Randle doesn’t seem like a great fit with Barrett or Robinson.

    In that case, we’re either looking for draft picks or a PG to replace Elfried, right?

  125. Call me crazy but I think the Knicks should be looking for players who are good and productive like Randle.

  126. My reasoning would be that Randle playing the best season of his career is only good enough to carry a team to a mediocre record and I don’t think he fits very well next to other superstars. Better to trade him now at probably the peak of his value then to wait and muddle along in mediocrity.

    He’s only good enough to carry THIS shitbag of a team to a mediocre record. RJ Barrett is #2 on the team in minutes. Elfrid Payton is #3. Reggie Bullock is #5.

    Take this same team, give RJ Barrett another year of development, replace Elfrid Payton and Reggie Bullock with competent players, and it’s not hard to see how this team could be pretty decent.

    If you get rid of Randle and give his job to Obi Toppin, it’s like the boulder fell back down to the bottom of the hill and you gotta start rolling it up again.

  127. Call me crazy but I think the Knicks should be looking for players who are good and productive like Randle.

    Since I agree 100%, you may want to reconsider. :-)

    IMO, there is no real debate about Randle other than whether he can sustain a 3p% in the 35% range or better and how much we can afford to pay him if he does. Ideally, if we add a #1 option via trade or free agency first, we can pay him market value. Then as a 2nd or 3rd option (with a developing RJ), we’d have a solid playoff team with a ton of upside depending on what we give up to get that #1 option. The trickier part is if we don’t land or develop a solid #1 option and have to pay Randle first, we have to be careful not to cap ourselves out with Randle as our best player. Fortunately, we don’t have to make that decision yet. We have a trade deadline, an off season, and another trade deadline to observe his play, see who is available, and think about these things. This debate is premature other than to say eventually we’ll have to land a #1 option and we have to be careful.

  128. djphan: yet somehow you had the secret sauce based entirely on winning the sec player of the year award..

    See, here’s an example of why you just don’t get it. In all of my arguments, including those about IQ, I cited a significant amount of evidence. That you would say that my opinion was based entirely on winning sec poy is indicitave of how far your head is stuck up your ass. I posted something yesterday that was produced back in May, and that aligned with some other rosier projections about IQ. You dismissed them out of hand, and were a pompous dick while doing so. And now that it’s clear that there were gaping holes in the model with regard to IQ, you don’t even have the humility to admit that you were dead wrong. As I said yesterday, I give tnfh a lot of credit…he may get heated in the moment but when the evidence is clear, he admits that he was wrong, no caveats. If you want to point to something I was dead wrong about in the last 5 years that I didn’t laugh off and accept the slings and arrows for, I’ll gladly listen and repent. If you need to go back to the Bargnani trade, I’d like to be able to say that I learned from that mistake and didn’t repeat it. (Ironically, the guy I took to task was the Dave Vertsberger, the former KB writer.) I was dead wrong for giving mgmt the benefit of the doubt on that one, and ate a ton of crow shortly thereafter. You don’t seem capable of either eating crow or learning.

    You could have avoided the escalation from the start just by recognizing that box-score models have gaps that might be filled by quantifiable synergy/PPP data, or other sources of info. You’re not willing to do that, even in the face of articles like the one I posted yesterday that turned out to be balls-on accurate. In that sense are the least flexible and most intellectually snobbish poster on this board (now that bobn is gone).

  129. The easiest thing really would be for us lose the play in game and then win the lottery. I’d be cool with that.

    We haven’t picked above three since Ewing right?

  130. In the past 5 years or so, among all of the regulars and excluding those who have been banned, I’ve had some very heated and lengthy interactions with Hubert, tnfh, strat, Bruno, and Ntilakilla.

    We are good…even when you lob the occasional bomb my way. :-) I hope that’s true in reverse and with everyone else I disagree with or troll a little bit for fun.

    By the way, Porzingis is playing soft (but well) on offense, but he’s literally playing Bargnani level bad defense these days. It’s painful for me to watch. Other teams are targeting him in P&Rs because he’s so slow in space, he’s getting bullied badly in the post by strong Cs, and when someone beats Dallas’s terrible perimeter defense he’s almost helpless to stop them because he’s moving in quicksand. He’s lost 2 steps in speed/quickness, a step in jumping, and a step in effort. Dallas better hope it’s just that he hasn’t fully recovered from this last injury because if this is the new him, it’s a bad match with Doncic. They’ll outgun teams on many nights, but they are going nowhere with that defense. It’s horrible.

  131. Let’s assume for a minute that we don’t get into the high lottery in this draft with either of our picks.

    Who looks good that might be out there mid-first round? Right now Tankathon has us picking at 13 and 17. We still desperately need a PG to develop and could use more dudes who can shoot.

    I’ve been so busy I have not followed college hoops at all this year, and haven’t scouted the potential prosepcts very much. Anybody here like any players who might fall to us in the teens?

  132. You could have avoided the escalation from the start just by recognizing that box-score models have gaps that might be filled by quantifiable synergy/PPP data, or other sources of info.

    how do you think i talk about prospects? many folks explained this to you yet you keep thinking everything is about box score metrics…. that’s not true at all….

    you still havent shown how synergy stats are meaningful at all… you are assuming it does because all the cool kids are doing it but you have no idea that pnr’s in college are not the same as in the pro’s … the plays being run in college are wildly different just based on the personnel and the heavy use of zone…. and not to mention there’s a huge variation in how things get counted since even box score metrics are really hard to get accurate measures on…. it’s unreliable at best….

    but if you paid attention at all you would know this…. and i’m not going to take the blame because you can’t seem to keep your cool…. that’s typical gaslighting behavior and that’s indicative of bullying which speaks loudly to your comfort in your position….

    you’re wrong… multiple people have told you … yet you still deny reality… you love appealing to others on the board right? how come you’re not listening to the folks who were kind enough to explain this to you? how do you continually get it wrong? because you have a vendetta?

    it’s hard to come to grips with a world that has already passed you by…. that can be frustrating but lashing out at people is not a healthy way to handle it….

  133. I think I’m going to change the subject before tonight’s game.

    I wish Frank was playing because I’d love to see our best defender shut down Trae Young and disrupt the Atlanta offense. As much as I like this team and what Thibs is getting out of them. it’s not the same without Frank playing. I like watching him pass on wide open shots, bricking easy mid rage shots, getting stripped, but still impacting the game positively. The Frank Hive lives! It’s just in hibernation.

  134. comeon: In that case, we’re either looking for draft picks or a PG to replace Elfried, right?

    One or the other, preferably both.

    JK47: He’s only good enough to carry THIS shitbag of a team to a mediocre record. RJ Barrett is #2 on the team in minutes. Elfrid Payton is #3. Reggie Bullock is #5.

    Take this same team, give RJ Barrett another year of development, replace Elfrid Payton and Reggie Bullock with competent players, and it’s not hard to see how this team could be pretty decent.

    If you get rid of Randle and give his job to Obi Toppin, it’s like the boulder fell back down to the bottom of the hill and you gotta start rolling it up again.

    Realistically, how much of an improvement do we need over Payton and Bullock to even approach contention (like a 50 win caliber team)? Like, let’s say Washington traded Beal to us for basically nothing what do you think we are at that point? And how much does trading for a player like Beal hurt Randle’s game because you’re taking the ball out of his hand? And how much improvement can we expect from RJ? His overall numbers this season are still pitiful and in the 7 games so far in February he’s totally cratered.

  135. Let’s assume for a minute that we don’t get into the high lottery in this draft with either of our picks.

    Who looks good that might be out there mid-first round? Right now Tankathon has us picking at 13 and 17. We still desperately need a PG to develop and could use more dudes who can shoot.

    I’ve been so busy I have not followed college hoops at all this year, and haven’t scouted the potential prosepcts very much. Anybody here like any players who might fall to us in the teens?

    there’s not much in the way of pg’s… sharife cooper probably fits but i’m not sure if he’s good with a pick in the teens i think he’s more late first in my books…. there’s jared butler but there are questions if he’s really a pg or just a sg.. ayo dosunmo is also somewhere to be mentioned but he’s also late first material…. if you want to go experimental and play scottie barnes at point forward you could try that also but overall the pickings are real slim this year….

    the draft is rich in sg/sf types… the folks looking to grab a beal might actually get two guys who could be just as good as him eventually in the mid teens…. there’s way more value to be had there and also something we need so i would be looking here… some names to consider are moody.. christopher… bouknight… keon johnson and jaden springer…

  136. I think I’m in the “let’s talk to the Pelicans about Lonzo Ball” camp. He’s a true PG. He’d be a nice upgrade over Payton. He’s young. He’s improving. Why not?

  137. Deeefense: I think I’m in the “let’s talk to the Pelicans about Lonzo Ball” camp. He’s a true PG. He’d be a nice upgrade over Payton. He’s young. He’s improving. Why not?

    With the way Lonzo’s been playing lately would New Orleans even be listening to offers?

  138. Deeefense:
    I think I’m in the “let’s talk to the Pelicans about Lonzo Ball” camp. He’s a true PG. He’d be a nice upgrade over Payton. He’s young.He’s improving.Why not?

    Is Liangelo any good?

  139. With the way Lonzo’s been playing lately would New Orleans even be listening to offers?

    Bledsoe might be available for relatively cheap (a first and knox or frank), he’s having a down year, but would be the best we’ve had in a very long time. The Pels have an outside chance at the play-in game, but more than likely they’re fixated on the future.

  140. Lonzo’s going to be a RFA yes? How much would you be willing to pay him next year? 4/80? I think it’ll take somewhere around there. For me, no thanks.

  141. Pass from me on Bledsoe. Nice looking arms, but he’s 31, seems like his game has been going south for a few years now, and while he’s shooting 40% from three at the moment he’s a career .341 and no reason to believe he won’t drift back to his norm. And his assists numbers were never impressive. He’d be our best pg right now and since who knows when, but he just seems like a somewhat different version of DRose.

  142. @JK47 Corey Kispert of Gonzaga should be there in the teens and would give us some real shooting at the 3. I also like David Duke from Providence at PG.

  143. I really don’t like Bledsoe’s game and I think it’s only going to get worse as he ages, so not interested. I still would be interested in Lonzo, he has a ton of issues with his game but he’s been consistently improving as a shooter and he’s a pretty damn good defender, he could take turns running the offense with Quickley and would be a nice fit with him for the future. I don’t think I’d pay 20 million per year on him, but anything under 13 or so could be pretty good value.

  144. GHenman:
    @JK47 Corey Kispert of Gonzaga should be there in the teens and would give us some real shooting at the 3. I also like David Duke from Providence at PG.

    There’s really a player named David Duke?

  145. The problem with Randle is he is an inflexible type of player. He is very good and effective but only playing the 4, only playing a slower style that lets him post people up and isolate, only if he has the ball in his hands a lot. He closes off a lot of options on how to build a team. Plus, I don’t know if he’ll ever be a great fit with Barrett or Robinson. If we move forward like we are we probably are not picking in the top 10 any time soon. I don’t know where we even find an average starting PG unless it’s IQ, who honestly is probably a good fit at PG with a ball-dominant post player but you better say goodbye to a modern NBA offense because if Randle is your best player then this is what it looks like. How do we improve if we move forward with a 40 win team centered around Randle?

    For all the praise Randle is getting he is our worst or 2nd worst defensive starter and the centerpiece of the #24 offense. I question how much worse we actually are without Randle, we are worse but I don’t know if it is as much as we think. Our bench without Randle seems to score the ball just fine.

  146. @Early Bird Yes there is. It took me awhile to get over his name, but the kid can really play. I don’t know what his parents were thinking.

  147. Ben R:
    The problem with Randle is he is an inflexible type of player. He is very good and effective but only playing the 4, only playing a slower style that lets him post people up and isolate, only if he has the ball in his hands a lot. He closes off a lot of options on how to build a team. Plus, I don’t know if he’ll ever be a great fit with Barrett or Robinson. If we move forward like we are we probably are not picking in the top 10 any time soon. I don’t know where we even find an average starting PG unless it’s IQ, who honestly is probably a good fit at PG with a ball-dominant post player but you better say goodbye to a modern NBA offense because if Randle is your best player then this is what it looks like. How do we improve if we move forward with a 40 win team centered around Randle?

    For all the praise Randle is getting he is our worst or 2nd worst defensive starter and the centerpiece of the #24 offense. I question how much worse we actually are without Randle, we are worse but I don’t know if it is as much as we think. Our bench without Randle seems to score the ball just fine.

    I think you’re selling Randle a bit short here, of course consistency is always the question with him, but a version of Randle that shoots. 391 from 3 like he’s doing this season is definitely a player who would improve most rosters in the league and be good enough to be the number 2 star in a very good team. When he shoots this well from 3, he’s definitely a guy who fits modern offenses and in a good team his passing could be even more impactul he would have more space to do his thing.

    To be fair we only have seen Randle in crap teams, he has never had a good supporting cast, but his improvements this season are very impressive by any metrics.

  148. Ben R:
    The problem with Randle is he is an inflexible type of player. ….but you better say goodbye to a modern NBA offense because if Randle is your best player then this is what it looks like. How do we improve if we move forward with a 40 win team centered around Randle?
    For all the praise Randle is getting he is our worst or 2nd worst defensive starter and the centerpiece of the #24 offense. I question how much worse we actually are without Randle, we are worse but I don’t know if it is as much as we think. Our bench without Randle seems to score the ball just fine.

    Agree with above…Randle presents this front office with a dilemma for the long term…while Thibs is laser focused on short term gratification such that he has essentially turned our starting unit offense over to Randle…and while Randle has shown that his competency is greater than last year…he is still not what you want as your number 1 option in the modern NBA….however, I see them staying put…letting Thibs grind it out with manic D and Randle leading the way and see where things are at by end of the year….my concern is that it impacts the ability to let Toppin play and develop unless Thibs gets creative…which probably ain’t happening…with Mitch out it would be a good time to tinker…

    As far as the 2nd unit doing fine without Randle…I mean…generally they are playiing against the other teams 2nd unit so it might not be apples to apples but aesthetically…it sure is more pleasant to watch the 2nd team…the Randle offense is rough on the eyes…

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