Will There Be a Rose Growing From the Knicks’ Thorns? – The 2020 NBA Free Agency Thread

It won’t be a rose or a thorn, it will be a rhino horn through our collective guts.

I love how much of a dick Danny Ainge is. The Pacers offered Myles Turner and Doug McDermott for Hayward and Ainge was like, “Nope, Turner and either Oladipo or TJ Warren.”

Vicious.

Pistons are busy: just signed Josh Jackson to a 2-year deal.

Is the Piston’s bringing on Josh Jackson a sign that they are letting Wood go?

Another asteroid dodged!

has anyone made the joke about dwight howard doing the low budget straight to video deandre jordan sequel yet

Malik Beasley back to Minnesota. I like him but 4/$60M is a little steep for him so I’m not losing sleep.

Meanwhile I can’t tell whether to be relieved we’re not doing some of these deals (Gallo, I love you, but yikes) or to be worried that it just makes Westbrook that much more likely.

Is it possible that pt actually is Dwight?

Z-man:
Is it possible that pt actually is Dwight?

Dwight Schrute? Likely.

Also I wouldn’t assume Danny Ainge is going to get whatever he wants from Kevin Pritchard. He can save his Myles Turner chip for another day and Boston will go forward without their center.

Houston close to a 3yr @ $27M contract with Wood.

I really wish we’d beat that offer.

thenoblefacehumper: Malik Beasley back to Minnesota. I like him but 4/$60M is a little steep for him so I’m not losing sleep.

Meanwhile I can’t tell whether to be relieved we’re not doing some of these deals (Gallo, I love you, but yikes) or to be worried that it just makes Westbrook that much more likely.

See all my comments today about worth vs. market value. Market value is about 1.5 times perceived worth. That’s why I keep saying FVV is going to go for a near max deal.

You gotta pay to play.

What is Houston doing? Are they just calling Harden and Westbrook’s bluffs?

Westbrook
Harden
Gordon
Tucker
Wood

Is actually a pretty good team. Not a contender, but not far from it.

Shams says it’s not a done deal for Wood. I really want to jump on him

So assuming that something gets done between the Celts and Indy for Hayward, who’s left that we should be interested in?
Bertans
Bogdan
FVV
Wood
Jerami
Harrell (probably not)
Melton
Derrick Jones
KCP

Anyone else?

I mean Wood and Toppin seem redundant, but at less than $36 mill for 3 years he seems way too good to pass up.

We really need a point guard and a 3&D swingman.

It’s almost as if we should’ve drafted Haliburton and Bane and signed Wood, huh?

“I mean Wood and Toppin seem redundant,“

The East is big

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: See all my comments today about worth vs. market value. Market value is about 1.5 times perceived worth.

There’s a big difference between $15mill AAV and $30mill AAV. And Minny isn’t exactly a model of a well-run franchise….they may have bid against themselves like we did for TH2 and Courtney Lee.

We could run out a lineup of Mitch/Obi/Harrell/RJ/Frank and try to win games with soccer scores…

ess-dog:
We really need a point guard and a 3&D swingman.

It’s almost as if we should’ve drafted Haliburton and Bane and signed Wood, huh?

This makes sense if we were building this roster for this season (which nobody thinks the Knicks should do), if Halliburton was an actual point guard (he’s not), and if the Knicks actually liked Desmond Bane (we have no reason to believe they did).

So yeah, nah. I’m not a fan of what the Knicks did in the draft but I don’t hate it, and quite frankly if Leon Rose wants to give Smith Jr and Ntilikina the point guard minutes I can get behind that. It’s a lost season as far as fan admission goes so let’s just tank, hopefully draft in the top 3, and move forward from there.

If Wood is available for close to $10 million, how could the Knicks pass? Going from paying Portis $15 to not paying Wood $10 would make me quite annoyed. Wood/Obi/Mitch – there’s plenty of minutes at the 4/5 between the three, assuming they can dump Randle.

Are they not going to dump Randle? That scares me, too. Are they committed to Randle?

i think unless there’s a big opportunity with wood there really isn’t a better choice than to see what you got with randle this year….

Honestly my biggest worry is that Julius Randle will be back next season and that’s giving me anxiety.

As an aside, if the Hayward deal goes through, when the Celts max Tatum, wouldn’t they be over the cap for the next 3 years just with Tatum, Kemba, Brown, Smart and Turner? I count like $120mill.

“Being fair, how many of you are shocked that we haven’t squandered even a tiny fraction of cap space yet?”

Its freaking me out. 2020 has been super disorienting.

***Is it possible that pt actually is Dwight?***

Perhaps it’s a coincidence, but I’m pretty sure ptmilo was living in Atlanta in 2016, just sayin’…

ess-dog: You’re right. Talented two-way wing players are a terrible idea for the future. A 90s-style dunking big who is a ghost on defense and a point guard that can’t pass definitely make more sense.

Tell me which player out of Desmond Bane, Tyrese Halliburton, and Christian Wood is the talented two-way wing again? Also, don’t assume that just because Isola reported that Houston could have gotten Wood for $27M that the Knicks could have. Houston was a WC semi finalist that has no front court depth and no state income tax. We are the Knicks.

Z-man: Agreed but the difference is that Randle at his best is actually good and he’s still unwatchable. DSjr is a terrible player.

Honestly, if year 4 DSJr is closer to year 2 DSJr I’ll take that guy over Julius Randle. That guy got into the teeth of the defense and ran the pick and roll.

Maybe Rose seeing teams grossly overpay his clients in the first couple days of free agency has thought him to be patient and let this crazy spending spree play out. There is always great deals left once the dust settles.

Is Indiana’s cap situation so bad that they have to do a sign and trade with Boston to get Hayward? Could they not ship a contract or two to the Knicks and just sign Hayward then?

candy

alec burks why not just qo dotson for less

Alec Burks is definitely a guy.

Honestly, if year 4 DSJr is closer to year 2 DSJr I’ll take that guy over Julius Randle. That guy got into the teeth of the defense and ran the pick and roll.

call me crazy, but, i really thought there were times last year when DSjr was really trying on defense, and looked really good getting to the rim and setting up his teammates…i keep hoping that maybe he was just immature and he’ll wisen up a bit and be a decent ball player…for sure he needs to get in better shape…

detroit is having a weird week

I’m fine with signing a bunch of scrubs to short term deals again, but are we only signing guys who are personally connected to people in the front office?

Burks put together a decent year last year. But that’s his best year. Just looking at his boxscore numbers he’s been below average otherwise.

$6M deal doesn’t hurt much and gives us wing depth. Plus he can pass a little and rebound. His game is similar to RJ’s a bit, but you hope RJ outplays him longterm.

Joe Harris 4yrs/$75 mill. Wow

6 million for a below average but playable wing guy is fine. Pointless in a lot of ways, but we do need people on the roster, and if he shoots well for half a year we can ship him out at the deadline.

the bright side to burks is like bullock he is a shooter on a cheap deal that could be very tradeable at the deadline. hello round 2, 2023.

Z-man:
Do the Pistons have like 25 players now?

Steve Mills is clearly building that roster.

Burks TS% has fluctuated, but he’s always been a decent three point shooter, so that’s one year at $6 million for actual shooting, That sounds like a good deal. If you look at the way our roster is taking place everybody except our point guards and centers are good shooters and our centers, Robinson and Davis, can both defend. That’s kind of the way NBA teams are supposed to be built in this era, except for our point guards. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Ntilikina shows he can hit open threes this season.

Agreed EB, not with Toppin on board, but otherwise a fair contract.

Wood to the Rockets for 41/3.

jerami grant is the kind of player everyone loves until he is making $20 million

Early Bird:
Some reports saying Wood to HOU is going to end up part of Ariza trade.

Woj sez Wood is a sign and trade, but no details re: players yet.

We are definitely nearing the resigning Melo portion of the program

the pistons are stretching dedmon. this is their ben gordon villaneuva shit all over again.

That was one of the most hilarious offseasons by a team ever.

So now the list is:
Bogdan
FVV
Melton
KCP

and maybe one of:
Noel
Cauley-Stein
Giles

(just removed Derrick Jones)

Also, isn’t Linsanity looking to come back?

Random personal fact, Alec Burks went to the University of Colorado at the same time I did. Never met or saw him though.

I kinda like Burks and if you’re going to do the throwaway 1 year deals thing it makes exponentially more sense to do it with guards/wings than with bigs given the current composition of the trade market. If Burks has a decent first half he’ll be very tradable. I’m still not seeing the bigger picture here but we haven’t messed anything up too bad yet.

Also, isn’t Linsanity looking to come back?

Wouldn’t he just make so much sense as a second or third point guard on a contender? Like the Clippers, per se.

I mean you could view Burks as replacing Ellington, which means the Knicks save $1M ($6M salary+$1M for Ellington waiver) and got a better more versatile player. Not that beating out Ellington is much of a win.

When is the first day you can deal FAs you signed, and players u acquired in a trade?

Shams:

As Rockets/Wizards talks on Russell Westbrook-for-John Wall stall, Wall has made it clear he wants trade out of Washington to happen, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @Stadium.

Good luck with that, Mr. Wall.

Z-man: nor would u remember it if u did stoner

Hey, that was several years before weed was legalized in Colorado. But also, yeah probably

Brian Cronin:
So the Pistons are going to be:

Rose/Hayes
Mykhailiuk
Grant
Ariza/Bey
Plumlee/Okafor/Bradley

That’s…something. Not a good something, but something.

Pretty sure we’ve at least locked up not being the laughingstock team this year. This is going to be the new go-to anytime someone is trying to refute the idea that NBA teams generally know what they’re doing, right?

Early Bird: Hey, that was several years before weed was legalized in Colorado. But also, yeah probably

Dude, I went to 8 years of college in NYS and hardly remember any of it

john wall has played 73 games since 16-17, makes $40m a year, and is demanding a trade?

Money is flying off the board. Knicks waiting it out. Watch them sign Elfrid back for $4M.

Z-man: Dude, I went to 8 years of college in NYS and hardly remember any of it

We used to have the largest 4/20 gathering in the world. Boulder has 300 days of sun, but it was always cloudy over Boulder and only Boulder that day.

Campus administration decided they didn’t want the party school reputation anymore. They decided to put some chemical that gave off a dead fish smell on the quad. I heard a number of people still showed up, but I’d guess its not the same anymore.

There is no player quite as Knicksy as post injury 30 year old John Wall, but that contract is the worst in the NBA and Windhorst reported the Knicks are being patient due to the 2021 draft and free agent class being superior to this year’s class.

The William Wesley connection is there but I don’t think that’s enough.

Early Bird: We used to have the largest 4/20 gathering in the world. Boulder has 300 days of sun, but it was always cloudy over Boulder and only Boulder that day.

Campus administration decided they didn’t want the party school reputation anymore. They decided to put some chemical that gave off a dead fish smell on the quad. I heard a number of people still showed up, but I’d guess its not the same anymore.

That’s funny! The drinking age was 18 back in my day and there were no campus police on our big rural campus, so we could walk around doing anything, any time. 4/20 wasn’t born yet, but it kinda felt more legal then than id does now. NY is so stupid.

Portland’s moves increase the likelihood of a Melo Reunion, though.

Knick fan not in NJ:
By my count, we have about $30M in cap space and three open roster spots. I don’t really see us making a splashy deal now. I just expect we will fill out the roster with low cost deals.So I think the Big picture is we will have a low cost team with lots of young players, reasonable defense and three point shooting that’s pretty good. We don’t have to spend all our space.We can always keep it and see what comes available during the season. I’m not unhappy with this picture.

I’m not so sure…maybe we blow it in trades rather than FA signings. But that could just be PTSD talking.

I feel like we just aced the 60% multiple choice part of the test but the 40% essay is coming up.

Knick fan not in NJ:
I’m confused about the references to sign and trade for Blake.I thought Blake Griffin already played for the Pistons.How are they going to sign and trade for him with themselves?

Denver can re-sign Plumlee & Grant and then send them to the Pistons in exchange for Griffen.

Z-man:
Oh shit, Denver matched the Jerami Grant offer…

And Grant turned them down. To play for the Pistons.

Brian Cronin: If they pull that off, then their whole night made a ton more sense. A team actively targeting another team’s frontcourt free agents to try to force them into trading for their washed up superstar power forward in a sign and trade? That’d be next level shit right there.

But aren’t the grant and plumlee deals combined worse than Blake’s deal? Blake has 2/75 left basically and was still all-nba two years ago. Grant and plumlee now have 3/85 combined and grant is a fine starter and plumlee is a bad backup C. Id rather have Blake I think.

Z-man: Oh sorry, I thought it implied he was a RFA…

Jerami Grant is actually batshit crazy to leave Denver, but I guess they want to start Porter Jr so he left.

Grocer: I thought you can’t sign and trade someone who has an offer?

I’m not at all sure what happened. I think Grant was a UFA, the tweeting has been not terribly clear. I think DEN offered to match the deal, not as a RFA but just offering him the same money.

Jerami Grant is actually batshit crazy to leave Denver, but I guess they want to start Porter Jr so he left.

Yeah, he’s sadly going to be, like, the #1 scoring option in Detroit, right? Or #2 after Rose? I guess Grant knows that pointz will get him an even bigger contract later on and/or good teams will try to acquire him later on anyways.

That’s just nuts, who else would have offered him anywhere near that?

Thankfully not the Knciks!

I’m not at all sure what happened. I think Grant was a UFA, the tweeting has been not terribly clear. I think DEN offered to match the deal, not as a RFA but just offering him the same money.

That’s it exactly. And he preferred being the default star for the Pistons.

if morris doesn’t back out of that spurs deal he’s making $10m last year instead of $15m and locked into $10m this year instead of signing the big one

Definitely a minor stain on Rich Paul’s record.

it seems odd that montrezl and meyers leonard will get the same paycheck. and you wonder why mitch is shooting 3s all summer.

Z-man: Mitch as a 3-pt threat is scary. Probably a mirage though.

I-Want-To-Believe-X-Files.jpeg

That’s probably it for tonight…FVV still available.

Didn’t tonight feel like the first night of a team that isn’t planning to try to win 39 games in 2021? I’m all for that, by the way, just noting that that is what this felt like.

Yeah. It’s weird. I’m not used to it. I still think The Move is right around the corner, but maybe this time I’m finally wrong.

Stein:

The Knicks remain in the Hayward hunt with salary-cap space, league sources say, but have held firm on lower figures than Indiana’s

Hayward has a huge admirer in Tom Thibodeau and the Knicks, I’m told, have shown some willingness tonight to go beyond an initial two-year offer

I would imagine that the Knicks stuff, from Hayward’s angle, is really designed to push the Celtics to lower their ask from Indiana for him, right?

This Mike Schmitz analysis of Toppin is not all that encouraging.

I’m hoping the Knicks are hoarding all of this cap space to extend Mitch.

Ariza’s 4 trades this week make him the most traded player in nba history, dethroning Chris Gatling. He’s up to 11 now and counting (he’s only 34, what?!)

How is it that Harrell is only getting 9.5×2 and going to the Lakers? He’s a really good player! How did the market pass on him? How did the Knicks?

They literally couldn’t keep him on the court during the playoffs because he was so much of a liability against Jokic and Plumlee (Plumlee!). He’s an undersized center who can’t shoot threes. It’s perhaps the most outdated type of player in the NBA.

JaMychal Green a good guy for the Nuggets to get to rebuild some of their frontcourt.

I think we’ll see more George at the 3 this season. Kennard was huge for them in that regard. Now they have PatBev/Kennard/Lou for the frontcourt and George/Kawhi/Morris for the forward spots and Zubac for the middle. They probably still need a legit backup center, though. Trevor Noah ain’t gonna cut it.

The Clippers haven’t been as active as other teams, but I think they’re still in decent shape.

Thanks, Brian. Wow, that’s extreme. The numbers are good and he passes the eye test, from what I saw of him. I guess Davis would cover the Jokic type player for him on the Lakers. It seems like a great bargain signing for them.

I love Harrell, but he’s just a very limited player. He’s really good at being that limited player, though, so yes, I think he’ll be an upgrade over Dwight Howard for the Lakers and allow Davis to not have to start at the 5 (which Davis hates), but then during the playoffs, Davis can get the tough 5s when needed.

Wow, Adams to the Pels. How did I miss that? ThT go down in the middle of the night.

That’s a great piece to put next to Zion.

Crazy action overall. Most active NBA day I can remember.

Brian Cronin:
With the Pellies getting Adams, their team is, what?

Ball/Bledsoe/Lewis
Redick/Hill
Ingram/Redick
Zion
Adams/Hayes

I think Ingram is better at the 4, but it is what it is.

They should really trade some of that point guard depth for another forward. Redick at the three is a bit of a stretch.

Knicks should poke around and see if they can get Bledsoe for Randle.

Z-man:
Why doesn’t Indiana trade Turner into our cap space with a pick attached and then sign Hayward?

They’re like 20M over the cap now that Sabonis’ extension kicked in – they’d need to give up another player or two to sign him outright

Frank:
Not sure I like the Adams fit in NO although he’ll definitely help their defense. They should want to play fast fast fast and it’s hard to see Adams keeping up.

RE: our sad sack team – assuming this Hayward thing is not happening, it seems likely we’re headed towards either Jeff Teague or DJ Augustin.

Would be shrewd of them to bring back Payton at a cheaper price. I don’t see anyone available who’s clearly better than him.

Igno-Bot 3000: They’re like 20M over the cap now that Sabonis’ extension kicked in – they’d need to give up another player or two to sign him outright

The point is, why not dump salary to other teams rather than deal with the Celts?

cgreene:
Although it’s not entirely clear what the plan is, it’s clear that the Rose administration has a plan. It seems to include:
-no overpays for tier 2/3 FAs
-availability to take on contracts for assets
-possibility that the 2021 season is gonna be tank fest
-if something interesting involving tier 1 players pops up then the team has assets and flexibility

That’s what it feels like. If so, yay! Right??

Seems like the most extreme outcomes at this point could be:
-take on Westbrook without giving up anything of value
-overpay FVV but all signs point to Toronto
-backdoor into Hayward

I guess we could knock them for a lack of creativity so far??

I wonder if we’d be doing anything differently if we weren’t wasting 6.4m per year on the crazy Noah stretch move that was part of the plan that helped us land Bobby Portis, Wayne Ellington, Taj Gibson and Elfrid Payton.

RE: our sad sack team – assuming this Hayward thing is not happening, it seems likely we’re headed towards either Jeff Teague or DJ Augustin.

Would be shrewd of them to bring back Payton at a cheaper price. I don’t see anyone available who’s clearly better than him.

I kind of feel the seem way about it. Unless they pull a rabbit out of the hat, we aren’t going to be any good next year anyway, better coaching or not. If those other guys are better than Payton overall, it’s not by a lot. Payton is at least younger. There’s always a possibility his shot improves a little and he winds up being better and cheaper.

Interesting detail on Burks deal. I guess it doesn’t have to count against our cap.

https://twitter.com/stevepopper/status/1330150718515384322?s=21

Edit: not sure if this is true

yeah owen that’s not true bc we only have the room which is below $6 million.

This is impressive…Obi can really get up.

ptmilo:
yeah owen that’s not true bc we only have the room which is below $6 million.

According to Popper, if we make a deal and go over the cap we can sign Burks to the cap exception….is that not true?

i believe they could regain the mid level only if they made enough $$ trades to put themselves over the cap excluding all free agent signings

ptmilo:
i believe they could regain the mid level only if they made enough $$ trades to put themselves over the cap excluding all free agent signings

So technically Popper is right, but it would be dumb to get there…like by trading for Russ and signing Hayward outright…

actually there may be one other possibility — to turn burks into a sign and trade with the sixers. but that doesn’t seem too likely i don’t they had bird rights on him

am i wrong that consensus has been that okc would have to pay, not get, picks for adams?

am i wrong that consensus has been that okc would have to pay, not get, picks for adams?

I never got that impression. I think there was always a market for him, they just didn’t want to get rid of him just yet.

I’d rather run Frank, DSjr, Quickley, Harper, Powell and whatever fringe roster guys fall from the waiver wire out there. For once, let’s give the young guys a chance to play. We need to find out which guys are keepers and which are pretenders.

What’s ironic here is that Strat has always bitched about our FO and coaches not knowing basketball, and if only they used Frank correctly, yadayada. Well Thibs definitely knows basketball and is going to separate the players from the pretenders. Clearly Mitch, RJ and Frank are his kind of players. Obi is a lock to play a lot. Everybody else is auditioning for next year. Rose’s job is to continue making moves that add value without distracting from the long-term rebuild plan, starting with developing young players. Burks doesn’t get in the way of that…we’re short on shooting small wings and he and Bullock are on value contracts that can fetch an. asset at the deadline. Ed Davis came with assets and is the perfect backup for Mitch. Payton is fine value but he gets in the way.

I’d love for that to be what they do. One of the reasons I balked at Thibs was that I didn’t think he’d be interested in coaching the Knicks if they went this route, so I feared signing him would mean they wouldn’t do this, but if he’s down with this approach, I’d love to see Thibs try to build the rookies up.

I really don’t get Popper’s position on this Burks’ thing. Burks signed for $6 million, right? The only notable exception that you get when you use up the rest of your cap room is the room exception, and that’s less than what Burks is making, right? Is the room $6 million now? If it is, then Popper is correct.

Payton is definitely good as a stop gap (there I’ve learned that term too!) but i feel not so great about his temper/character. Looks like a super cool guy but remember him going psycho last season and grabbing a few techs that “scared me”.
I lost my trust on him after these psycho incidents/remember it close to the birth of his child-probably had less sleep(?) idk…
I won’t miss him

no the room isn’t $6m, it’s just under $5m. i think the popper argument is you can trade for, say, westbrook and operate like an over the cap team and regain your full mid level.

But that wouldn’t give you $35 million in cap room, right? I think he legit thinks that the room is $6 million.

Btw I’m surprised that no one has offered a contract to Iso Zo…I wouldn’t mind bringing him back..

I’m like 95% confident Popper is wrong. He thinks we can use the MLE, which we can’t since we started FA under the cap.

I don’t know the exact trigger for losing the MLE, but I do know we lose our MLE as soon as we sign a player into cap space. Basically we’d need to acquire $35M in trades. And I suspect we lost the MLE as soon as FA started, so even that wouldn’t do it.

Early Bird:
I’m like 95% confident Popper is wrong. He thinks we can use the MLE, which we can’t since we started FA under the cap.

He specifically said the cap exception, which I believe is like $9 million once you go over. That’s the only reason he said you’d have to wait to do the Burks deal, right?

Z-man: He specifically said the cap exception, which I believe is like $9 million once you go over. That’s the only reason he said you’d have to wait to do the Burks deal, right?

I read some articles to jog my memory. No, he definitely means the MLE, which is the $9 million exception. He’s just saying cap exception as a generic term for all exceptions.

Anyways, we might have it if we absorb Westbrook or Hayward via trade and then made another trade to put us over. But if we sign FAs we lose it.

Basically the only way to use an exception to sign Burks is by doing something dumb or restructuring his deal to fit the Room Exception

We can’t regain the full MLE because we renounced players and went under the cap. So even with trades into our space, pretty sure we can’t be an over the cap team now.

But I just checked and I can’t add our payroll up to more than 74m – with Davis and Burks. That would still leave 35m – think I must be missing someone…

Dunn to Atlanta, which means we’re the only team with max cap room left, I think.

english_knick:
We can’t regain the full MLE because we renounced players and went under the cap. So even with trades into our space, pretty sure we can’t be an over the cap team now.

But I just checked and I can’t add our payroll up to more than 74m – with Davis and Burks. That would still leave 35m – think I must be missing someone…

Did you count Joakim Noah?

The Knicks have
Mid-level Room Exception $4,767,000
Trade Exception $3,988,766 for the Marcus Morris trade with LAC

Re: Popper, it’s amazing how often professional NBA writers screw up cap details. It’s very hard to imagine there’s an implied “if they make enough trades to reach the cap” qualifier to that tweet.

I’d feel better if we used the 33rd pick on Dotson or Jones, but hard to complain about the non-draft portion of the offseason so far. I still would’ve signed Wood because I think he’ll be an asset at that price, but Toppin makes the decision a little more complicated so it is what it is. Burks is exactly the kind of middle ground between “do nothing to give your core a coherent roster” and “sign a 31 year old player to the max solely to help your core” I was talking about yesterday. If he plays to the back of his basketball card he’s a virtual lock to be flippable for something at the deadline.

It’s likely that between the offseason and the pre-deadline season there will be more salary dump opportunities. Keep that powder dry.

But I just checked and I can’t add our payroll up to more than 74m – with Davis and Burks. That would still leave 35m – think I must be missing someone…

Did you add minimum roster charges?

Current salary situation:
10 players*, $61,970,887 Dead cap $9,431,667 = Total $71,402,554
Cap holds** $27,984,814

* player count does not include Toppin or Quickly.
** cap hold includes $4,862,040 for Toppin

See Spotrac for a full breakdown.
Their practical cap space is $42M

Mistake on the cap hold number above. It’s $30,679,744. I had left out the Incomplete Roster Charge

I’d rather run Frank, DSjr, Quickley, Harper, Powell and whatever fringe roster guys fall from the waiver wire out there. For once, let’s give the young guys a chance to play. We need to find out which guys are keepers and which are pretenders.

What’s ironic here is that Strat has always bitched about our FO and coaches not knowing basketball, and if only they used Frank correctly, yadayada. Well Thibs definitely knows basketball and is going to separate the players from the pretenders.

My impression is that Thibs is looking for a pure PG and not trying to create a team with multiple playmakers that all move the ball and create plays as a team the way I prefer.

If he uses Frank and Quickley correctly, neither is likely to be his traditional ball dominating PG. I suspect Harper or Powell won’t be the answer either. While Payton may not be the long term answer either, he’s the best of the bunch as a pure PG and still young enough to improve given that imo some of his ability has been masked by injury. I can think only 3 things. There’s someone we haven’t signed yet he likes better, he likes DSjr, or Payton should still be on the team. The other option would be that we let a bargain asset walk. In fact we may have either way.

i like how our interest in melton leaks like 5 seconds before he resigns with memphis.

Augustin to MIL per Shams.

We’re running out of PGs

It’s funny how we all agree Portis isn’t a terrible idea as a cheap bench guy, but if you’re going to be a cheap bench guy, it’s going to be on a contender.

Deeefense: If they land Brogdan, I’ll be a happy camper even if they pay a small premium.

You mean FVV? Brogdan is not for sale, is he?

It was Bullock. By my count we have 31.6m ‘true’ room factoring in holds etc, plus the room exception and the small traded player exception.

Z-man: You mean FVV? Brogdan is not for sale, is he?

I thought I read somewhere that Brogdan was available too.
Forget it, I misread something. I’d be happy with FVV also and I don’t mind a small overpay, but don’t go crazy.

You’re probably thinking about Bogdan Bogdanovic, who is a restricted free agent. People might have been saying his name, Bogdan.

So…

Teague
Payton
Jeremy Lin (?)
Shane Larkin (?)

At some point other teams won’t need PGs, but still

2020: The year the Knicks finally unite Jeremy Lin & Carmelo Anthony!!!

Great job by Masai to hold to his price.

Brian Cronin:
Great job by Masai to hold to his price.

Probably a dodged bullet.

I have so many Fran Ntlikina gifs for this occasion!

https://media3.giphy.com/media/l378d3HYZlj3aYe0E/giphy.gif

Brian Cronin:
You’re probably thinking about Bogdan Bogdanovic, who is a restricted free agent. People might have been saying his name, Bogdan.

That’s the second time I’ve done that. Thanks.

I am betting that we learn that VanVleet turned down a 4/$100 from the Knicks because of a lack of supporting cast.

I am 62 years old and am confident that I won’t ever see a Knick championship in my lifetime. At least I have 1973.

“Z-man
November 21, 2020 at 12:39 pm
Probably a dodged bullet.”

Sometimes when you jump out of the way of something, you end up in a worse situation… Like smashing your head into a Wall, or maybe falling into a freezing cold Brook.

Z:
“Z-man
November 21, 2020 at 12:39 pm
Probably a dodged bullet.”

Sometimes when you jump out of the way of something, you end up in a worse situation… Like smashing your head into a Wall, or maybe falling into a freezing cold Brook.

lol yeah but that’s better than a bullet…unless you fall into the freezing cold brook and bash your brains out on a rock…

Is this your way of saying that the Russ train is steaming around the bend?

Deeefense: I’ll remind you that that Steph Curry is not a traditional PG and the Warriors split the playmaking between Steph and Green and then Steph, Green and Durant.

lol their offense was as PnR and 3-pt shooting heavy as any in the league. They sure didn’t run the Phil triangle, in fact, they were the origin of his “how’s it goink?” gem.

It sounds like he had no interest in coming here. Which meant Masai was bidding against himself. And unlike some past NY execs, Masai knows what to do in that situation.

Donnie Walsh:
VanVleet at 4/$85 is less than we were projecting him yesterday, which is weird because worse players are getting a lot more than projected. If he didn’t want NY, that’s fine. But if he could have been had for a little more, I think that’s a mistake.

Agreed, but the FO specifically said that they didn’t want to be used just to drive the price up. It’s likely that FVV would not have come here unless we significantly outbid Toronto. Another million or two a year wasn’t gonna get it done. And then he’s a bad move for this team. There will be other opportunities for a better player for 4years/$100m.

Deeefense: The difference was they had several great 3 point shooters… we are talking about great players

And that pretty much ends the conversation, doesn’t it? Let’s get the great players first and then worry about what kind of offense we run.

And that pretty much ends the conversation, doesn’t it? Let’s get the great players first and then worry about what kind of offense we run.

I’ll get back to you in 2026. 🙂

What about taking some chances on a couple younger players.

Jordan McLaughlin
John Konchar
Harry Giles

All three are young and have put up good numbers in small samples (Harry Giles sample a bit bigger). Any of them super cheap would be a good low-cost medium upside type move.

Also I’m still banging the Noel and Larkin drum.

Mike Honcho: I’d be fine with either of Payton or Larkin. Payton’s not amazing but he does PG stuff. I think I’d prefer Larkin, but I don’t mind running it back with Payton and the kids.

Payton made the offense look not godawful, so he passes the test. He’ll almost certainly miss games again, so you’re looking at another stretch of “player development” for DSJr, Frank, Quickley, and any other player the Knicks think can run the point (Burks?)

@wojespn
Free agent Gordon Hayward is signing a 4-year, $120M deal with Charlotte, per source.

Charlotte almost certainly wasn’t trading for Russ once they drafted LaMelo, but now we and Washington are really his only destinations.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Iy6RfxFjVqP8NQQ/giphy.gif

Also, so much for the theory that Hayward wanted to take less money to cement his standing as a star. He’ll definitely be The Guy in Charlotte, but not for a discount.

Hayward to Charlotte is the exact type of “fuck you” I wanna see people give Danny Ainge more often.

You could have had Myles Turner. Instead you have nothing.

I remember this exact type of conversation last year and the year before and the year before that.

When do we admit that this strategy is a losing strategy? Do we need to wait for Giannis to spurn us?

OMG. That is horrendous. Kudos to the Knicks for showing restraint.

CHA needs to create ~$10M in cap space. Looking at you CHA 2023 second round picks.

Update: CHA does not have a 2023 2nd round draft pick

Bobby Marks on Charlotte needing your create cap space for Hayward:

They do have the $27.1M expiring contract of Nic Batum to waive and stretch.

Not sure I would want a $9M cap hit over 3 seasons though.

Might be worth throwing in a future 1 to see if NYK would bite on the money.

Charlotte needs to clear $10 million to sign Hayward. Get in there, Leon!

I’d be more than fine with a cheap PGuard.
A Dinwiddieesque one.

I’d love to put some good players in but not via overpaying at this moment.

We’re looking good so far
Young and ready for displeased big dogs

Macri spells it out well:

If ever there were an opportunity to use Julius Randle in a productive way (I.e., not as LeBron James lite – cc: Coach Fiz) it would be to send him to Charlotte for Batum and Zeller in exchange for the Hornets VERY lightly protected 2021 first.

Yep, an unprotected or barely protected 1 should be the cost and the Knicks should hold firm. Charlotte is desperate.

If there’s no buzz about the Knicks and Charlotte talking, it means the Knicks want Westbrook.

More 2023 picks please! If we bundle our seconds to get more 1sts to go with ours and Dallas we can land Bronny and his dad who def wants to spend his final season throwing lobs to his son in the Mecca. That’s Leon’s master plan. ?

Never even a bridesmaid, let alone a bride.

I quit the Jets.
Knicks may be next.

Brian Cronin:
Randle and Smith for Batum and a pick and then Bogdonivic could be done for $30 million, I bet. I doubt Sacramento matches $20 million.

Randle and Smith for Batum and a Pick!

Has a nice ring to it.

Crowder to the Suns for 3/$30 million. Whichever team gets him after the Suns cut him will get a good player.

Avery Bradley to the Heat.

bogdan is especially good at slow running the pnr to throw last second lobs. would be especially good with mitch or obi and mitigate not having a real point guard.

If we get Bogdanovic, Batum and a first while let go Randle and DSJ I’ll go buy myself a SerboFrench champagne to celebrate it!

The Glass Half Rebuilt:
Guys Charlotte needs to clear $10M. Batum is getting 27.1 million and Randle/Smith together is like $24M. Randle’s $19M for Batum and Monk clears that threshold. Batum and Zeller does it too. We can’t send them Randle and Smith Jr if they want $10M in space.

You’re right, I’m being dumb and mixed up who needed to add salary to make the deal work. Charlotte needs to add salary, not the Knicks.

Didn’t Bogdanovic sign an offer sheet with the Hawks? Or did that fall through also?

I thought that that was still just a rumor. If so, then that sucks.

By the way, gotta love the poll question now….

If Gordon Hayward was available for 3 years/$70 million, would you want the Knicks to sign him?

Who else has space? Does Boston now?

Danny Ainge could have gotten Myles Turner for FREE, and he overplayed his hand. Even if he gets something back from Charlotte, it won’t be nearly as good.

Grocer:
Who else has space?Does Boston now?

Not really. I forget the exact numbers but losing Hayward puts them at or just under the cap. So they can’t realistically compete for any FAs above the minimum.

Bummer. Charlotte is just going to stretch Batum rather than attach a sweetener to trade him.

Any interest in him if he’s willing to sign a small contract to rebuild his value?

The Hornets are stretching Batum

i know it’s fun to hate on ainge but it’s extremely possible that once charlotte went up to $120m the die was cast

also we should sign batum to be frank’s therapy animal

Kind of a weird move on Charlotte’s part. I would think paying two seconds or something would be worth not having to pay Batum for the next three years. Also means you can basically tack on an extra $9M AAV to Hayward’s price tag over the next 3 years.

It feels very weird not to be the team doing these dumb things.

I don’t know if Charlotte is still interested in Westbrook, or if Westbrook is still on the market, but Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook works.

Honestly with how all-in Charlotte now is, I don’t see why they wouldn’t do that.

Houston would have to take on an extra year of Rozier, but assuming (probably falsely) that the Knicks are out of the picture, it still might be the most painless way to trade Westbrook.

I have a comment in moderation suggesting the Hornets trade Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook and weighing the pros and cons for both sides. I don’t know what word set it off but trying this again.

***I have a comment in moderation suggesting the Hornets trade Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook and weighing the pros and cons for both sides. I don’t know what word set it off***

Facehumper?

thenoblefacehumper:
I have a comment in moderation suggesting the Hornets trade Rozier/Zeller/Monk for Westbrook and weighing the pros and cons for both sides. I don’t know what word set it off but trying this again.

the exact phrase “trade for Westbrook” or any combination of “trade” and “Westbrook” within 10 characters of each other?

Facehumper?

This issue has been litigated already!

Pickings are slim, but some guys remaining who may be worth a look: Chris Boucher, Shaq Harrison, Juancho Hernangomez, Harry Giles, Chris Chiozza, Jordan McLaughlin

Bogdan would be nice…

Kevin O’Connor suggests that the Lakers are still trying to find a way to get him via a sign and trade, so the rumors of a Hawks offer sheet might not be true (or at least premature).

Get in there, Leon!

Bogdan can even fake the point, if need be. He’s good.

isn’t teague still unsigned

I’d legit just as soon let DSJ start at the point over Teague.

I don’t get the rumored Knick interest in Kentavius Caldwell-Pope. Dude can’t shoot!

I don’t get the rumored Knick interest in Kentavius Caldwell-Pope. Dude can’t shoot!

He’s OK, but not on a team that needs shooters to help RJ.

I like what Atlanta is doing.

They have a very young team that had some injuries last year that held them back. If they are healthy, get some development, and with the addition of vets like Capela and Gallo for a full season, they have a real basketball team with a lot of upside. They probably still need some help on defense, especially because Trae is a revolving door, but they are on the way up and doing it right.

I’d legit just as soon let DSJ start at the point over Teague.

why?

I know he’s lost his job a few times, getting ready to look at his stats now…

I don’t know how he and thibs got along…he mentioned wanting to find a “winning” situation, but, with 10 teams in the post season, pretty much everyone has a chance…

geo: why?

I know he’s lost his job a few times, getting ready to look at his stats now…

I don’t know how he and thibs got along…he mentioned wanting to find a “winning” situation, but, with 10 teams in the post season, pretty much everyone has a chance…

I think Teague is at that age when he’s about to fall off a cliff. He’ll still probably be better than DSJr or Frank and would be a serviceable placeholder on a 1 year. But from a player development perspective, DSJr makes sense.

If DSJ was the starting point, Thibs would be in Rikers for murder one by May.

I want a run at Bogie, a run at Ingram, and a flier on Giles.

I’m down with trying to outbid the Hawks on Bogdonavic.

Ingram seems likely to get squeezed, as everyone knows NOP will match anything and won’t bother with an offer sheet. These situations demonstrate a pretty big flaw in the RFA system.

You don’t want to do crazy things like give 120m for 4 years to a 30 year old 3rd option, but you have to be pretty good already to compete in free agency for good players. If that means paying a small premium sometimes you do it. That way you can get a look from the best free agents later. Riley does it all the time. It’s a tough balance, but what we are doing again so far this year is swapping interchangeable useless parts. I hope they have something productive up their sleeve somewhere.

Free agents choose teams based on the players they’ll be joining, not the players they’ll be replacing. KD and Kyrie chose the Nets because they had a lot of talent on the roster that was cheap enough to still allow them to sign two max contracts.

If you sign a bunch of mid-tier free agents at a premium, you necessarily have to move them to make room for elite free agents. That is simply how a salary cap works. They will make no difference whatsoever in an elite free agent’s determination because why the hell would they? The elite free agent in question won’t be playing with them.

So the elite free agents in this scenario need to be impressed with the players who will remain. You get those through the draft or with below market free agency deals in rare circumstances. If you sign a bunch of mid-tier free agents at a premium, your draft picks are statistically less likely to be impressive, and you have less room for below market free agent contracts.

In other words, your strategy doesn’t work at all.

Hope this helps!

Free agents chose teams based on the players they’ll be joining, not the players they’ll be replacing.

I don’t know why this is hard to understand. Yet it’s apparently hard to understand.

The Knicks just might as well forfeit the season so that none of their young players get hurt. Save money on MSG TV salaries.

Wooten signed a deal with the Rockets 🙁

Melo about to sign with Portland 🙂

We needed a point guard to legally constitute a basketball team so I have no problem with bringing back Payton at that price

ELFRID AT 5 MILLION IS AN ASSET

DRed:
ELFRID AT 5 MILLION IS AN ASSET

I honestly thought he was an asset at $8 million.

Melo staying with the Blazers, and Elfrid Payton back on a completely sensible deal (1 year, 5 mil). I don’t love Payton, but he’s a perfectly cromulent placeholder if he can be made to share the ball more with RJ.

Player development season, baby!

If this means we’re not trading for Westbrook it’s the best 1/$5M contract of all time

It’s really starting to look like nobody wants to play for Dolan. They haven’t come close to anyone but pure dreck in two years of mega cap space. Elfrid Payton again? JFC. Yuck.

Based on what I’ve said previously, everyone knows I like Payton at 5m a LOT. This is the kind of thing I can live with. He’s better than people give him credit for, may be better than that if healthy, and he’s young enough to get better. If by some chance you can add a better PG, you’ll have no problem moving him. If you have 3-4 Paytons, overpay one solid starter, have some good kids on the roster (which we already do), you can compete and generate interest from free agents. But you can’t keep swapping trash year after year like we’ve been doing. Nothing personal against Alex Burks, but he doesn’t do it for me at 6m for a year. He’s wasted cap space like Portis, Ellington and a bunch of others we’ve had over the years etc.. .

My plan:

Larkin 3/20 – highly unlikely at this point
Noel 3/20
Giles 3/12 – 3rd year team option
McLaughlin 3/12 – 3rd year team option

Chase Ingram try to pry him away.

Maybe see if Minnesota wants DSj and send him for McLaughlin.

I actually liked Payton so don’t mind him returning. But yeah we are gonna suck real bad again this season although I think with Thibs coaching they won’t come close to finishing with the worst record so barring some lottery luck it’ll be another wasted season where we probably will wind up picking 6th-8th in the draft again. Hopefully Mitch, RJ and Obi provide us with a glimmer of hope for the future and make this season still worth watching.

Melo about to sign with Portland 🙂

Best news of the day

Alan:
Current depth chart:

PG: Payton/DSJ/Quickley/Harper (2-way)
SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
SF: Knox/Burks/Iggy
PF: Randle/Toppin
C: Mitch/Davis

Two open roster spots, though Berman has said the FO is prepared to waive Davis if they need another roster spot. This team will not be good, and I’d rather see Randle elsewhere, but the roster seems much more balanced in terms of skillset, and there should be ample opportunities for the kids to play if they earn that time.

That’s the worst roster in the NBA. By a pretty fair amount, too.

PG: Payton/DSJ/Quickley/Harper (2-way)
SG: RJ/Bullock/Frank
SF: Knox/Burks/Iggy
PF: Randle/Toppin
C: Mitch/Davis

I would try to smallball this a bit more. RJ at SF, Knox at PF as much as possible.

I also think Harry Giles as a third center is a fine idea. Mitch fouls out after 10 minutes and Davis is washed, so there would probably be minutes for Giles at the 5.

If Elfrid Payton is the starting point, I’m sitting out the year. I can’t believe they brought that guy back.

Don’t you regularly cite the fact that the offense is marginally better with Frank on the floor as evidence of his latent power? Have you checked Payton’s on/off?

DRed: We’ve done nothing all day?

I don’t know whether this should make me cheerful or fearful.

On one hand, ya gotta be pleased with the level of restraint exhibited thus far. No gross overpays in the name of starfucking. No pointless deals given to middling talents who wouldn’t make the team appreciably better but are just good enough to keep it mired in bottom-of-the-lottery mediocrity. It certainly appears to be a departure from how this team has approached free agency of late.

OTOH, I can’t seem to shake this nagging feeling that Rose & Co. might just be keeping their powder dry for some mind-boggingly moronic gut punch of a move that will one day take its place in the Pantheon of Stupid alongside the Curry & Bargnani trades.

I want to believe that the new regime is OK with finally getting off the hamster wheel of mediocrity and embracing the suck in the interests of letting the kids play and better draft seeding . I really do. Unfortunately, this fucking team has foreclosed any possibility of my giving it the benefit of the doubt.

E: It’s really starting to look like nobody wants to play for Dolan. They haven’t come close to anyone but pure dreck in two years of mega cap space. Elfrid Payton again? JFC. Yuck.

Some of it may be not wanting to play for Dolan, but what they really don’t want to do is play on a terrible team unless you pay them a premium or give them a big premium as a mercenary. That’s the tough part. You’ve got to be around a .500 club so they believe that if they come in they can take the team to the next level (like Butler). But as thenoblefacehumper was saying earlier, you have to do it without gutting the roster to fit them so there’s nothing left. It’s obviously tricky and difficult, but it can be done by the smartest managements.

With who we have I would go:

Frank/Payton/Harper
Burks/Quickley
RJ/Bullock/Iggy
Toppin/Randle/Knox
Mitch/Davis

I would cut or trade DSj. I would also really try and move Randle to clear up time for Knox to back up Toppin. I would also sign a back up 5 (Noel, Giles, Cauley-Stein) and move on from Davis who looked pretty washed last year.

We are going to be bad we might as well give Frank lots of minutes so we can move on or keep him with no doubt.

If Elfrid Payton is the starting point, I’m sitting out the year. I can’t believe they brought that guy back. Textbook symbol of the merc year, can’t play, symbol that somehow Scott Perry still has sway, just makes them look utterly pathetic.

Granted, his shooting sucked last year, but seriously (and this is not hyperbole), imo the entire season for every player should get an asterisk because the team was so horribly constructed and coached by Mills/Perry/Fizdale almost no one was going have a good statistical year.

He had injury issues again last year on top of playing in those dreg lineups.

He’s not some star player, but if we get better coaching, better lineups, and some better spacing, he’s going to do a very good job for a guy getting paid 5m.

I’m not sure who people wanted at PG this offseason that was significantly better than Payton. Dunn? Augustin? Throw the max at FVV?

I said 4/$100 for FVV but that probably wouldn’t be enough to lure him here. No sane player wants to join this team. Without any assets, without any fans in the seats, with a team in Brooklyn that has 2 top-tier players, would you join voluntarily?

Are people upset we didn’t overpay for Hayward and FVV or make a truly atrocious trade for Westbrook?

Exactly one contract has been signed that I would’ve wanted the Knicks to sign, that being Christian Wood’s.

A predictable lot is freaking out that the Knicks, for once, don’t appear to be dead set on winning as many games as possible next season with no regard for the future consequences of that.

I wouldn’t pay them any mind.

The problem with the Knicks is Knox, Frank, and RJ look terrible so far. If we could draft halfway decently, then players might actually want to come here and our win totals would look better.

If Obi or RJ has a good year, things will start changing on the FA front.

I am upset at how much we have sucked for the past 20 years but I am delighted that we didn’t do anything stupid. I feel like someone forgot to drop that neutron bomb on us that we all knew was coming.

Things could turn fast for us in the next couple of years.

Question: if Orlando wants Westbrook, should the Knicks facilitate by taking Aaron Gordon (and sending out Knox)? Gordon has been a bit enigmatic. He is signed through 2022, but has a de-escalating salary, which would only be $16.4M that year (it was $21.6 this year). I haven’t really seen Gordon play much, he seems like a nice guy though, and has tools, it’s just weird that he hasn’t really improved much, so I’m wondering what people think about taking him in with our remaining cap space?

Knicks are actually not doing stupid things and trying to get better by natural growth. Yay!

I do predict they will get savaged by pundits for not visibly turning the team around with flashy moves, but who cares, and I think that was impossible anyway.

We either we didn’t chase them which would be good or they didn’t want to come here which saved us from ourselves. Either way I’d maybe want Wood on the contract he got but honestly I’m okay with not getting him and everyone else was a bullet dodged.

Count de Pennies: Well, he re-upped with TOR for 4/$85.Which appears more or less commensurate with what I see as his market. While some may argue it would have been worth it for the Knicks to sweeten the pot by an extra $4 MM/yr to entice him to wade into this cesspool of hoop for the next four years, I’d disagree. I see him as a good piece on a team that already has a solid foundation, not a cornerstone upon which to build from the ground up. I am pleased that Rose decided to take a pass.

If we did offer 4/$100M Toronto had the funds to match it, likely would have matched it, and FVV still would have gone there.

Were they in the running for Wood? For Bogie? For Ingram? Anyone? Any indication of anyone they were close on? They’re just a complete non-factor. Basketball wasteland.

And now they’re bringing back Scott Perry’s obsession. Scott Perry.

I still hope we chase Ingram though I think there is a very small chance he doesn’t remain in New Orleans.

Why would we want Bogdanovic? He is about to get PAID and will not be a good value. He is overrated right now because he is the last medium sized pice still available.

The only player I was willing to spend money on was FVV. Still wish we had drafted Haliburton instead of Obi, the guard rotation still looks God awful and I don’t consider RJ a guard.

***I’m upset because it’s becoming obvious no one wants to play here.***

Apparently, no free agents want to play in Boston either. And they have verified talent, stocked cupboards, a good coach, and (still) go to the ECF every year.

It’s not all doom and gloom in NY right now (which is kind of strange to write). (It’s like ephus used to say: “now is a good time to be a Knick fan”). (Though, when and why he was saying that, I have no idea. Was he being facetious? Was he insane?) (Where has ephus gone, anyway?)

Boston signed Kemba Walker last year.

it’s confusing in the face of how free agency transpired that we thought that the 33rd pick was worthy of a punt considering that our big signing is …. alec burks….

seriously the 33rd pick was not worth a roster spot over alec burks?

If you want to develop a star through the draft, you don’t bring back a point guard who can’t shoot and who routinely froze out RJ Barrett so he could feed Julius Randle.

I keep seeing this. It’s utter nonsense.

RJ with Payton on the floor: 16.7 PTS/36, 22.5% USG, .483 TS% (762 MP)

RJ with Payton off the floor: 17.1 PTS/36, 24.8% USG, .475 TS% (981 MP)

it’s confusing in the face of how free agency transpired that we thought that the 33rd pick was worthy of a punt considering that our big signing is …. alec burks….

seriously the 33rd pick was not worth a roster spot over alec burks?

It’s truly bizarre. Statistically speaking it’s simply highly unlikely a Dotson/Jones level prospect will be there with the 2023 2RP.

If there is a double draft, then in theory all the second round picks that year will have a better expected value than the best second round pick this year.

You effectively have 2 rounds worth of first round talent.

The way Rose handled the Quickley pick and the high second rounder is the one criticism I have of his tenure so far. There were definitely more interesting options than Quickley on the board at 25, Quickley would have very likely been on the board at 33, and then there were still interesting prospects on the board at 33 anyway.

You should be able to find a decent guy to take a flyer on at 33 in just about every draft. It’s worth throwing the dart considering where we are on the win curve.

I’m fine with Burks starting if it pushes RJ to small forward.

Look, the Knicks are in a tough place. All their young players SUCKED except for Mitch, and none of their vets played “surprisingly” well either, except for Morris, who we already traded.

It doesn’t make a lot of sense to sell low on Knox, DS2, RJ, Frank, and even Randle until Thibs at least tries to build up their value again.

Maybe it’s not possible. At worst, you trade Dennis or whoever as an expiring before his contract is picked up.

Standing pat is probably the best move unless you can get guys BELOW market value. That happens at the end of free agency.

I’m actually impressed with this direction, especially with a very good draft coming in 2021. I just hope Thibs can match these parts correctly and get some visible improvement from the young guys.

marechal:
So far, this is the best Knicks offseason since they got Tyson Chandler. And I didn’t even like the draft.

I’m with you. Warts and all, it’s one of the best offseasons in recent memory. I’m “meh” on the draft and bringing back Payton. As some others have said, we should bring in Harry Giles. Play. The. Kids.

I’m okay with Payton if he’s basically a backup. I have 0 hope that DSJ or Frank will become a decent PG, but I’d play them over Payton, at least at first. Run the offense through RJB (point forward) instead.

Until the Knicks can get a good young trio of players, don’t spend big bucks on 4 year deals for free agents, unless a true superstar like Giannis. Right now the Knicks have 1/2 of a good young player (Mitch). RJB, Frank, Knox, DSJ and the new rooks are all 0’s, but hopefully one or two will emerge this year…

Yes, this feels different this year. I’m happy to play the kids. If we play better than expected it’ll be because our four top ten picks in the last four years played well. We did tank, we got draft picks, we drafted and now they have to be our best players. If we get our asses kicked it means we didn’t draft well. Period. In that case, we get a chance to try again, with a new regime who didn’t make those mistakes (assuming Toppin isn’t one of them). Going to high priced FA’s to make up for drafting poorly is bad strategy and yes, they won’t want to come. But if we did nothing else then find our diamond in Obi, that may be enough to change the culture.

E:
I’m upset because it’s becoming obvious no one wants to play here.I’m also a bit upset because it appears that somehow, some way, Scott Perry still holds sway in this organization.The front office/coach are a mismatch of competing agendas, which is why we’re already seeing the Berman stories about this guy wanting X and “some people in the organization” wanting Y.

No one wants to play here because a) the team is bad right now and b) mgmt is not overpaying. With our cap room we could have gotten a bunch of the guys that signed elsewhere if we wanted to pay the “shitty team” premium. You don’t think Wood would have taken 3 years/$60 million to play here? Or FVV would have taken 4 years/$120 million?

It takes time to fumigate a team after two decades of mismanagement has driven the roster into the ground, including 3 straight uninspiring draft picks and a fire sale trade for the one that had excess value. Only another bad GM/POBO would have signed anyone to some of the bloated contracts they received + the shitty team premium.

And to be fair, no GM makes perfect moves all the time. Take a real good look at the draft history of your favorite long-time GMs and you will see plenty of head-scratchers. If anything, a prudent approach will make more UFAs want to sign here in the future if we build a young core (see: Boston, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Denver, etc, etc.)

That doesn’t mean that the next move won’t be the same stoopid shit as the moves that got us here, but this is no time to be depressed about what the team didn’t do.

punting on a 2nd rd pick is what contenders with roster crunches do…. we are certainly not that…

And the strangest thing is that all of Rose’s other moves seem to suggest that he gets that, and yet he still reached for Quickly and then punted the #33 pick.

E:
If you want to develop a star through the draft, you don’t bring back a point guard who can’t shoot and who routinely froze out RJ Barrett so he could feed Julius Randle.

A PG could get away with that freeze out the rookie shit under a rookie no-name coach. It won’t work with Thibs, I can assure you. He would get benched and then if he complained, waived.

And by the way, RJ sucked last year. It’s possible that the coach told him to stop feeding RJ until he stopped fucking up and shooting bricks. And guess what? They won a bunch of games (sadly!)

thenoblefacehumper: It’s truly bizarre. Statistically speaking it’s simply highly unlikely a Dotson/Jones level prospect will be there with the 2023 2RP.

You and others aren’t buying the double-draft theory. We’ll see. PS Dotson was such a great prospect that he went undrafted. Not that he won’t be good, but a lot of excellent GMs passed him over.

JK47: There were definitely more interesting options than Quickley on the board at 25, Quickley would have very likely been on the board at 33, and then there were still interesting prospects on the board at 33 anyway.

This is speculation. Might turn out to be true but I wouldn’t be so sure. 2023 is just around the corner and that pick will likely have more value that a likely replacement-level player during the next years. I’m trusting the scouts and capologists on this one until I have reason not to.

alot of gm’s also passed on christian wood and van vleet…. it’s no guarantee that dotson becomes a player in this league…. but he’s a lot more interesting than iggy… or burks… or harper.. or frank or pinson… or powell… or wooten…. it’s close to even money that dotson is on an nba roster and none of these other guys are in a couple of years…..

djphan: This is a false assumption… and the reason is that ..

1) you’ll have a few of those fringe or mid first rd’ers goto college to improve their draft stock instead of getting in a crowded field….
2) there might not be enough talent for a deep 2nd rd….
3)talent flattens out after the mid first round anyway year to year….

and that also doesn’t take into account that we are in dire need of talent now…. there’s really no one on this roster save for a few guys that we should be afraid of ditching for a chance at someone that could be useful… and there were plenty of those guys available…. punting on a 2nd rd pick is what contenders with roster crunches do…. we are certainly not that…

While some of what your saying (but I doubt all of it) may be true, it’s a lot easier to move up in a draft when you have muultiple picks. You saw that happen in this draft…having #27 and #38 made it possible to move to #25 and #33. So moving the pick to 2023 may make it more possible to move up in that draft.

And let’s be real, even those who don’t like the move said that it wasn’t really a big deal in and of itself, more an indication of poor decision making going forward. Yet the Toppin pick was 100x more consequential, and the Quickley pick 10x more, so they should really be judged on how those guys turn out. Their restraint during this FA frenzy is also way more consequential.

Some blast from the past posts from the past 3 free agent signing periods….

We do have six picks in the next four years though, right? So, we’re set up to find players like that in the draft. ….The lesson I think is, we really can’t afford to put out a door mat team, save a bunch of money, and throw it at a guy. Lots of teams are gonna have space and are already gonna be good. We need to get better and that means winning games and that means signing good players or seeing growth from our own.

See the complete Post June 30, 2019

The worst thing about all of these deals is that now we have to watch this horseshit ill-fitting unwatchable team full of non-prospects and back-of-roster veterans for an entire two seasons…There is really nothing to look forward to until the 2020 draft lottery. This could easily be the worst team in the NBA again, so we’re doing The Process without even doing The Process. We’re doing just the shitty part where we lose, and not doing the good part where we accumulate a bunch of draft picks.

July 1, 2019

The best hope for the Knicks is that KP becomes a monster and that a couple of the young players develop into something in the vicinity of max players, or at least get good enough to form a strong trade package for a star once we have some cap room.

July 2, 2018

Looking into the Crystal Ball….

Knicks win the lottery!!!! They get the #1 pick
a day later…
Cade Cunningham “My family and I have decided that I need one more year in school.”

Their restraint during this FA frenzy is also way more consequential.

Sure. They’ve been quite impressive otherwise. As you note, it’s not like even the greatest GMs are without missteps.

djphan: it’s no guarantee that dotson becomes a player in this league…. but he’s a lot more interesting than iggy… or burks… or harper.. or frank or pinson… or powell… or wooten…. it’s close to even money that dotson is on an nba roster and none of these other guys are in a couple of years….

I disagree about Iggy, he would be a college junior right now and has some skills. Also disagree about Frank. Dotson may turn out to be good, but statistically he’s seems to be pretty much a dime-a-dozen undersized 2 to me. He played on the best team in college basketball and only generated 4 assist a game.

And let’s be real, even those who don’t like the move said that it wasn’t really a big deal in and of itself, more an indication of poor decision making going forward. Yet the Toppin pick was 100x more consequential, and the Quickley pick 10x more, so they should really be judged on how those guys turn out. Their restraint during this FA frenzy is also way more consequential.

2d rd picks are usually not game changers so yes it’s not consequential in a vacuum… but for a team as talent bereft every chance we have to add a decent young player is a consequential one… how much worse are we if we didn’t draft mitch?

there is probably something like a 33% chance that nobody in the 2nd rd will make it in the nba especially this year… it wasn’t a ton of good talent left in the 2nd round but that’s really not the point…. there’s at least a handful of guys that were better than the bottom of our roster…. that should be super clear for anyone paying attention to the draft this year… i don’t care if we have had the 60th pick… someone was going to be better than a lot of these guys that have zero chance of making it…..

and the quickley pick was indicative of bad decision-making also…. i can almost guarantee that one will age super poorly considering the quality of guys picked by quality teams picked right after him…. and not to mention his exact clone… isaiah joe… went deep in the 2nd rd…. so yea i’m highly skeptical of these suspicious leaks that some stupid team was in danger of picking quickley in the first rd when a guy who basically has the same exact game … similar physique and similar numbers didn’t get his number called 40 picks later…

“I’m not sure if I disagree with everything you write, or if I just don’t ever understand what you’re trying to say. But it’s one of the two.”

Fair

Dotson may turn out to be good, but statistically he’s seems to be pretty much a dime-a-dozen undersized 2 to me. He played on the best team in college basketball and only generated 4 assist a game.

ok so i’m sure you can name a dozen pgs in the last 10 years that put up 20/5/4/2 steals >.500 2p fg% as a freshman or sophmore then right?

Nerlens Noel! Leon Rose has been reading his knickerblogger.

djphan: 2d rd picks are usually not game changers so yes it’s not consequential in a vacuum… but for a team as talent bereft every chance we have to add a decent young player is a consequential one… how much worse are we if we didn’t draft mitch?

This is super unfair because they actually targeted Mitch. If Mitch was taken earlier and they rolled over the pick, it would be a fair comparison. The guy they targeted this time was Carey, jr. and he was taken the pick before.

my god we actually got nerlens…

Noel 5M/1year
Yeah baby!
That’s THE SHIIIT I’m talking about !!!

Compare that signing to Taj’s 10 and Bobby’s 15 and aaaaarghhhhhh!!!!!

Apparently Teague signed with the Celtics

Donnie Walsh:
It’s hard to understand how DJ Augustin, who’s 33 years old, is declining from a place of never very good, and has only played in a few largely inconsequential playoff games, gets 3/$21M from the best team in the league, while Payton, who is younger and better, is relegated to playing from one year contract to one year contract for all the worst teams in the league. (Hell, Augustin was even the lone backup pg on Orlando that had to take over when Orlando up and jettisoned Payton’s rookie contract for a future 2nd rounder).

It’s easy to understand. Payton shot 20% from 3, 57% from the line, is lazy on defense, and doesn’t play it straight because he freezes out some guys and favors other guys. He’s terrible. He serves a KB purpose of being a vehicle to attack Frank — the Knicks fanbase equivalent of owning the libs — but nothing more.

So with Noel on an outstanding deal, we could have a ridiculously prolific shot-blocking tandem, and an array for fearsome dunkers.

Ultimately, it’s simply not a big deal.

this is the sort of thinking that does lead to people selling and punting on 2nd rd picks…

for bad teams they are valuable to fill out roster spots cheaply… the upside for hitting is huge given the contracts you can negotiate… we have mitch locked up on a heinous deal and he’s been extremely productive….. and it is absolutely valuable to be getting that while you have cannon fodder littered everywhere on your roster…

you might think iggy is worthy of roster spot… like i have no idea what that is based on but ok… but what is alec burks contributing to the future of this team? like any number of guys picked after pick #25 wasn’t worth a shot over him?

Noel! Always loved him

Leon Rose, you have my attention

Payton Noel and Burks for 15 million and one year is what the doctor ordered

Now trade Randle Leon

djphan: ok so i’m sure you can name a dozen pgs in the last 10 years that put up 20/5/4/2 steals >.500 2p fg% as a freshman or sophmore then right?

If he turns into a significant NBA rotation in the next 3 years I will gladly admit to being wrong on the move to pass him over. For the record, I’m still waiting for Kay Felder to turn the corner.

Yes! Nerlens!!

Do you think this means they’ll trade Randle? I definitely don’t want him goofing up the starting PF slot.

djphan: this is the sort of thinking that does lead to people selling and punting on 2nd rd picks…

for bad teams they are valuable to fill out roster spots cheaply… the upside for hitting is huge given the contracts you can negotiate… we have mitch locked up on a heinous deal and he’s been extremely productive…..and it is absolutely valuable to be getting that while you have cannon fodder littered everywhere on your roster…

you might think iggy is worthy of roster spot… like i have no idea what that is based on but ok… but what is alec burks contributing to the future of this team? like any number of guys picked after pick #25 wasn’t worth a shot over him?

This will be true when in 2023 when we are capped out and still not all the way there. Unless you’re telling me that the surprise second rounder wouldn’t help a team like the Celts or the Bucks…

Maybe Rose can trade for Skal Labissiere, Malik Monk, Trey Lyles, and Keldon Johnson, so we can get a few UK players on the team, amirite?

Noel & Mitch under Thibs is a wet dream of mine.

If the play is to fill out the roster with quality veterans, then well, let’s get veterans who are actually good, like Nerlens Noel. I’m not a big fan of Burks because he can be a bit of a chucker a lot of times, but he’s also a talented player who can shoot 3s are a decent rate, and Payton is Payton, there’s not much to say, he has his qualities and his issues and I think he’s pretty much at his ceiling level, but again, not a terrible player. I’m not mad.

I know the Kentucky/CAA thing seems creepy, but the other side of it is that it’s not a bad group to build allegiances with. That was probably Rose’s sales pitch to Dolan.

How does OKC not resign Noel after trading Adams? Horford is the only big on the roster no? For whatever reason none of the teams Noel’s been on has seemed particularly interested in keeping him around.