Knicks Morning News (2019.06.30)

  • [FOXsports] Knicks waive veteran forward Lance Thomas
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 9:12:54 PM)

    The New York Knicks have waived veteran forward Lance Thomas

  • [Hoops Rumors] Knicks Decline Option On Henry Ellenson
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 7:01:24 PM)

    The Knicks have declined Henry Ellenson‘s $1,645,357 option for next season, tweets Michael Scotto of The Athletic. Ellenson played 17 games for New York this year after signing with the team in February. He joined the Knicks on a 10-day contract in February, then inked a multi-year deal in early March. He averaged 6.0 points and […]

  • [SNY Knicks] Where the Knicks stand on Kevin Durant and others on the eve of NBA free agency
    (Sunday, June 30, 2019 12:55:01 AM)

    Here’s where things stand as we approach the start of free agency.

  • [SNY Knicks] Execs: Nets landing Kyrie Irving could prevent them from adding Knicks’ target Kevin Durant
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 7:11:23 PM)

    The long-expected marriage between Kyrie Irving and the Brooklyn Nets is almost here.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks have interest in free agents George Hill and Wayne Ellington
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 2:47:53 PM)

    Regardless if the Knicks sign Kevin Durant and/or Kawhi Leonard, they have interest in veterans George Hill and Wayne Ellington.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks waive veteran Lance Thomas
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 5:12:05 PM)

    On Saturday afternoon, the Knicks announced that the team has officially requested waivers on Lance Thomas.

  • [SNY Knicks] Free agents Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard reportedly interested in teaming up, with Knicks a possibility
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 12:16:48 PM)

    The Knicks are reportedly one of two teams where Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard could conceivably team up and join.

  • [SNY Knicks] Latest on Knicks target Kevin Durant: Warriors plan to offer KD $221 million max contract
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 2:26:47 PM)

    Warriors star Kevin Durant is one of the prizes of free agency, but the idea that he could join the Knicks this summer took a hit when he suffered an Achilles injury that could keep him out for the entire 2019-20 season. Here’s the latest…

  • [NYPost] The test for this Knicks administration begins now
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 11:31:58 PM)

    The Knicks’ rhetoric about top players wanting to be here because of a new culture, vibe and an engaging head coach in David Fizdale gets put to the test starting Sunday evening at 6 p.m. Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard and Kyrie Irving officially become free agents, and the Knicks have room for two max slots….

  • [NYPost] Kevin Durant’s right-hand man: Free agency sneak peek, infamous Knicks tweet
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 3:47:44 PM)

    A born and bred New Yorker, Rich Kleiman is NBA superstar Kevin Durant’s manager as well as co-founder and business partner in Thirty Five Ventures — which incorporates Durant’s personal brand/marketing portfolio and on-court contracts, their diverse investment portfolio, the emerging media and creative development arm, and the Kevin Durant Charity Foundation. Q: You were…

  • [NYPost] Kawhi Leonard-Kevin Durant dream easily trumps Knicks’ risk
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 12:32:58 PM)

    And this, of course, is why the NBA is so much fun. Specifically, this is how the NBA can be every bit as interesting, and every bit as intriguing, when there are no games being played as some of the other sports are when they’re in-season, when there’s a full slate. Every rational instinct, every…

  • [NYPost] Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard may suddenly team up with Knicks
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 8:48:58 AM)

    Could Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard team up? That possibility is seeming more likely, based on reports Saturday. And the only two current options with enough cap space are the Knicks and Clippers. An ESPN report said Durant and Leonard have discussed scenarios about playing together, while another report said the Clippers would use that…

  • [ESPN] Knicks waive F Thomas, saving $1M next season
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 9:18:23 PM)

    The Knicks waived Lance Thomas, saving themselves $1 million of Thomas’ salary for next season that would have been guaranteed if he was still on the roster after Sunday.

  • [ESPN] Where should Kawhi and Durant team up to win an NBA title?
    (Saturday, June 29, 2019 12:08:39 PM)

    Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard have reportedly discussed teaming up. How good would that pairing be?

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    215 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2019.06.30)”

    1. So it’s one of 3:
      (1) Kawhi and KD
      (2) Just KD
      (3) Starting lineup of Rozier/RJ/Knox/Randle/Boogie OR Rozier/RJ/Knox/Boogie/Mitch

      Don’t give up hope! I, of course, am referring to the possibility that Rozier and/or Randle are Jehovah’s Witness and may be inspired by Collison to a different calling.

      Striking out on the Killer K’s and looking at barren 2020 free agent crop, FO would be desperate. They must view Randle/Boogie/RJ as shot creators and Rozier as more 3&D guy who wouldn’t have to be a playmaker. Rozier on a SHOW ME large 1-year deal would be OK (DSJ would still get minutes). But Kadeem would be out and he might be better than either of those two. Regarding Randle, though the 2020 crop is bleak, Harrell will be available and prob a lot cheaper than Randle. May be prudent to wait or offer Randle large 1-year deal.

      Miami is being mentioned a lot re Butler. Don’t know if they’d be interested, but I’d explore a deal where we get Winslow for Knox/Mavs protected pick. It would free up some cap for them. If they need more cap space, offer Mavs protected pick and 2 Charlotte picks and no Knox. Winslow’s been solid (2.05 RPM) but he’s not a playmaker.

    2. Kawhi Free Agent Meeting Prep Transcript:

      Mills: I think we lead with the Popovich video.

      Perry: Steve, I don’t think Kawhi likes Pop.

      Mills: C’mon, everyone likes Pop. He tells it like it is. Pop says it on the video – “if you can’t play for the Spurs, the Knicks are the next best option.”

      Perry: (Nodding slightly) That was nice of him to record that for us.

      Mills: Ok. Then we make a video of Kawhi’s uncle getting picked up by Tony Soprano and…..

      Perry: Tony’s dead.

      Mills: We don’t know that. Chase fucks around with the media about that fade to black shit. Tony is fine.

      Perry: No. The actor who plays Tony is dead. James Gandolfini passed away.

      Mills: Then get Big Pussy. Someone is getting picked up in New Jersey.

      Perry: Steve, did you read the boss’s email?

      Mills: Jimmy bought some New Balances. He likes their walkability.

      Perry: Is he really going to cover that Albert Collins song?

      Mills: Let’s get real. Son House is not going to happen.

    3. We’ve got some awful GMs on this board

      Winslow’s shot 38% from 3 the last 2 years. He’s an above average passer at his position and excellent defender. In other words, he’s a real 3&D guy and RPM suggests his strengths outweigh his weaknesses. The hope is Frank could be this type of player. 13m/yr is reasonable for Winslow especially since SF is difficult position to find decent players. Remember Neptune, PER and BPM don’t do a good job in valuing players at the extremes on defense. And don’t mention RHJ as an option (he’s atrocious from 3).

      I don’t want to sign Boogie on any deal. I don’t like Rozier but he did play well as a starter and in the playoffs so a 1-year show me deal wouldn’t be bad. I don’t like Randle but he is an efficient shot creator and this team needs those. I would never sign him because I don’t like players who are horrific on defense – they are a huge negatives in playoffs.

      I would try to do that Winslow deal, re-sign Vonleh and Kornet to value contracts if there, take expiring bad contract for pick but not a lot, if any, out there anymore. Maybe Tyus Jones instead of Rozier but that would depend on the relative prices. Given dearth of shot creators, I’d consider Randle but it would have to be a 1-yr deal (no player option). Rubio is on his way to Pacers so no longer an option as a playmaker. Maintain some free cap for trade deadline.

    4. It really does look like we might wind up with Rozier, Randle or Portis, maybe Bullock and some ‘mentor’ vets like Hill.

      This is pretty miserable compared to KD and Kyrie, and to a lot of us also pretty miserable compared to renting out space and going into mass asset-accumulation mode. I guess we just have to hope the younger guys like Rozier and Randle are on team-friendly deals (1+1 team option or maybe 2+1 team option). Interestingly ESPN predicts them to each get $10m per. I don’t like it but I’ll survive 2+team option at 10-12m AAV for those guys or Portis.

      Rozier/RJ/Knox/Randle/Mitch/DSj/Frank/Trier/Dot still a time least has some future growth potential as a core – especially if you factor in our future pick stash – while probably being quite bad this year

      If it were me and the space-renting-option were really off the table I still think I’d offer Brogdon.

      I can’t believe we’ve been relegated to viewing not giving out Afflalo-type deals or signing Boogie on a one-year max as a ‘win’. It all looked so promising…

    5. The rumors were promising, but this is the Knicks. The actual results show just how hard it is to get any A list free agent to take us seriously other than as a negotiating ploy. Honestly, Perry hasn’t screwed up yet, even if it sucks being reminded how unattractive the Knicks are as a team to play for. If we get two reasonably talented twenty five year olds for $10 million annually each, that is probably a good result.

    6. If KD & Kawhi decide to sign elsewhere, our signings need to be guys who can have a future with the team. Guys like Portis, Rozier, Brogdon, Russell..though I’m more intrigued by DSJ’s potential than I am of Rozier and Russell. I know folks are down on DSJ, but look how long it took Russell to develop at the point. I think DSJ deserves one full season as a Knick before we trash him. Ntilikina on the other hand, as much as it pains me- that ship may have sailed. The only thing that’s gonna save him is a HUGE summer. Wings are awfully tough in the NBA and the drafting of Barrett as a 2 guard has probably closed the door on Ntilikina. Maybe if Ntilikina comes in at 6’7″ 210ish with a jumper, maybe he would have a chance playing primarily at the 3. But no..no no…Perry should probably trade him for the best player or pick he can get.

      We absolutely need a starting PF. Maybe if we offer slightly more than Portis’ market, the Wiz won’t match. I have no problem with that. Randle’s a nice player, but he’s 28 already. Though he’s still young enough to have a future as a Knick, Portis fits in better with the youth movement. I’d be happy with either one though

    7. Hahaha oh shit..I don’t know why 28 is stuck in my head lol

      Nevermind..Randle fits in. Sign Randle.

    8. I think Portis might still be a better fit with Mitch. Restricted though so likely pricier.

    9. Oh we need a solid backup for Mitch. I’ve heard RoLo is an option, but what about giving Tyson a call?

      I wonder if WCS is gonna break free from Sacramento, he’d be a nice signing too

      Gosh we are so weak up front right now

    10. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Winslow has his flaws, but he’s a good overall player and still young enough to keep getting better on offense. I would not be upset with adding Winslow. I might consider that a nice success depending on cost.

      It would be ironic if we wind up with George Hill. It was a better idea a few years ago. Back then we were going to play triangle, he was considered a perfect mentor for Frank, and the team was trying to get better. Well, we were trying to get better by putting Hardaway in that space too, but we were so bad at it we changed the narrative to tanking.

      I still like Randle, but imo the fit with Robinson isn’t ideal unless his 3p% from last year wasn’t a fluke. Portis is the much better fit, but he’s an inferior player. I keep thinking Vonleh may be the best option based on the likely prices and fit.

      Rozier is OK, but I don’t get management’s infatuation with him. This is the 2nd year in a row the talk has been that they like him. Unless they are trading DSJ (which may be the case), I don’t get it. I thought they’d give DSJ a little more time before pulling the plug. Maybe his back is worse than we are aware of.

    11. If DSJ’s back is ok, I’d be happy with bringing Hill in to mentor DSJ, Ntilikina(if he’sstill a Knick), and Allen. I’m definitely with you when it comes to DSJ or Rozier. I’d be happy with Rozier, but I still would rather see what DSJ develops into. Hell, if Fiz can make Mudiay serviceable, imagine what he can do with a whole season of DSJ.

    12. We’ve got some awful GMs on this board

      Winslow’s shot 38% from 3 the last 2 years. He’s an above average passer at his position and excellent defender. In other words, he’s a real 3&D guy and RPM suggests his strengths outweigh his weaknesses. The hope is Frank could be this type of player. 13m/yr is reasonable for Winslow especially since SF is difficult position to find decent players. Remember Neptune, PER and BPM don’t do a good job in valuing players at the extremes on defense. And don’t mention RHJ as an option (he’s atrocious from 3)

      I’d rather shove a hot poker in my eyeball than pay this stiff 39M for the next 3 seasons…..There isn’t a metric that likes him. I live in South Florida and have the (dis)pleasure of watching him play a lot and I don’t see it…..

      These mid priced players that are well below average statistically are the players that seldom outperform their contracts and you end up attaching something to them at some point to dump them.

      The only value in the NBA are top, top players and players on their rookie contracts. Grab as many bites at thew apple (draft choices) as possible and avoid the Windslows and Randles of the world.

    13. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      I understand the excitement, but I don’t see Kawhi/Durant pairing as ideal.

      1. Kawhi would essentially be giving up at least 1 year of his prime waiting for Durant. He’d be doing that despite having the option to compete for a championship with the Raptors or possibly the Lakers or Clippers right now. Given his injury history, he has to know he may not last as long as many other players. Giving up a prime year would be a big sacrifice.

      2. We know that Kawhi has significant load management requirements. Durant will have the same in at least year 2. At his age possibly going forward. Exactly how many games are they going to play together during the season if one is missing 20-25 games and the other 10-15 (assuming all goes well)? Unless the plan is to just make the playoffs at whatever seed you happen to get and then go all out in the playoffs you need a deep team to hold down the fort. I see Khawi as more of a perfect fit on a very deep team. That way the time he takes off has less impact and he can gear up later. Last year was perfect for him.

    14. I feel pretty good that KD is coming. Regardless of the 5th year GS can offer, there is a lot of noise out there about GS’s mishandling of his injury, and regardless of whether the narrative has changed re him getting on the bandwagon by signing there 3 years ago, he’ll never establish his own legacy with Steph, Klay, and Draymond all still being there.

      Honestly there’s no question GS put him at risk by playing him there, and it’s a very short leap to think that if he were signed for 3 more years they wouldn’t have risked it. If it were me that’s a tough train of thought to get past.

    15. I can’t seem to shake the feeling that Durant is coming here. I think we end up with Durant, Rozier, and Randle.

    16. Rumors that Rozier is agreeing to a deal with Charlotte. Dodging a bullet there if true. Hoping to hear that Durant has signed somewhere other than here; some other team can pay him a max for his post-achilles, post-prime years.

    17. I’d rather shove a hot poker in my eyeball than pay this stiff 39M for the next 3 seasons…..There isn’t a metric that likes him. I live in South Florida and have the (dis)pleasure of watching him play a lot and I don’t see it…..

      Ahem. Click HERE. I put “HERE” in caps because of your implied poor eyesight. But I’ll make it even simpler: he’s #10 in RPM among all SFs in the league.

      Miami’s talking a S&T of Richardson for Butler. Got a lot of salaries but maaaybe we could take Richardson/Winslow/Johnson into our cap (37m total) and throw in Dotson/Charlotte pick. We’d be getting 2 above average players in Winslow and Richardson but we’d have Johnson’s bad contract on books for 2 seasons. RJ’s a terrible shooter so make him a 1 guard and reserve 2/3. RJ/Richardson/Winslow/Vonleh/Mitch. SWITCHABLE DEFENSE (switch 1 to 5)

    18. Rumors that Rozier is agreeing to a deal with Charlotte. Dodging a bullet there if true. Hoping to hear that Durant has signed somewhere other than here; some other team can pay him a max for his post-achilles, post-prime years.

      There are too many bullets around to dodge. If Charlotte signs Rozier (good) they won’t sign Mudiay and he could come back (bad). Also I don’t feel any good about Portis and Randle would be pretty underwhelming (his defense is terrible). We’re gonna end up with at least two signings we’d struggle with for quite some time; if/when that happens, we’re going to regret having passed up Atlanta’s offer on trade day.

      Oh, wait, we would have ended up with Hachimura and Reddish. Dolan’s Razor.

    19. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      I saw an interesting speculation regarding the Celtics/76rs/Rockets.

      The Celtics will be fine replacing Kyrie with Kemba. The more significant problem is replacing Horford (if he leaves). He’s critical to that team.

      Someone threw out a 3 team trade where the major pieces moving are Capela to Boston, Hayward to the 76ers, and Butler to the Rockets. The Rockets seem willing to move Capela to land Butler and Butler seems open to moving on from the 76ers. I’m not sure what else would have to happen to make it work for the 76ers, but it doesn’t seem impossible. Morey is more than willing to use picks as currency to land the players he wants.

    20. What I don’t like is how little substance there seems to be to Knicks’ FA options and how concrete sounding others are.
      And I also don’t like that the Knicks are allegedly in almost every conversation, as if, again they are being used in some why to drive interest…but nothing else.

      And I don’t celebrate signing Durant to four, to get three…on the downside. It’s okay, but once again, they pay a premium for a guy on the back end.

      I really hope I’m wrong. I really think Kawhi literally could change this entire team culture. But as others have mentioned, he seems to love southern Cali.

    21. Can’t imagine the 76ers agreeing to a trade like that. They’re in win-now mode, not collecting assets so any trade they make is going to be about adding players. Unless you mean Horford and not Hayward.

    22. Apparently Barcelona offered 80 million for Mirotic… now it makes a lot of sense, he would be insane not to accept it.

    23. We’ve got meetings with Kawhi and KD. Question is should Dolan be in the room. Buss and Ballmer are gonna be in the room for their meetings but they won’t make fools of themselves. Dolan might be conspicuous by his absence but then do you risk him looking like an idiot by mispronouncing player names, or being dependent on index cards, or just looking like the plantation owner next to 3 African- American execs? BTW it’s possible 3 African-American execs is a plus in signing free agents but it’s also possible the decisions have been made and NYK are out but they’re getting these meetings bc of the 3 African-American execs.

    24. Someone threw out a 3 team trade where the major pieces moving are Capela to Boston, Hayward to the 76ers, and Butler to the Rockets. The Rockets seem willing to move Capela to land Butler and Butler seems open to moving on from the 76ers. I’m not sure what else would have to happen to make it work for the 76ers, but it doesn’t seem impossible. Morey is more than willing to use picks as currency to land the players he wants.

      Capela and Butler’s contracts don’t match. Why on earth would Philly want Hayward’s contract/production?

      This is why Morey needs a team like the knicks with cap space to take both capela and gordon’s contracts = 30m if they want Butler

    25. Today is going to suck.

      Possibly not!

      this is the most brian post there could be. it’s like all the tony robbins courses combined without the bullshit and the creepy giant hands.

      ps today is going to suck

    26. So I’ve been lurking/sparsely contributing to this site for many years now and have adopted a lot of the jargon/mindset, but the other day I was trying to explain “Dolan’s Razor” to a friend and got confused. I originally thought it meant that whenever the Knicks made a bad move (e.g. trade half the team and some picks/swaps for Melo) it was probably because Dolan was involved somehow (i.e. the “simplest explanation”). But the way I see it used lately, it’s more akin to Murphy’s Law. Should we be using the phrase “Dolan’s Law” to describe when all possible paths for the Knicks future will suck (i.e. “go wrong”) because of the fact that Dolan is the fucking worst?

      I’m curious to hear veterans’ definitions of “Dolan’s Razor”.

    27. I’m really curious how Dolan would react if the Knicks get shut out of big time Free Agency while the Nets get Kyrie and clearly have the better team once again next season. Could that finally mean the end of his lovefest with Mills??

    28. Apparently Barcelona offered 80 million for Mirotic… now it makes a lot of sense, he would be insane not to accept it.

      over 6 years though, still good for him

    29. One advantage to signing guys like Rozier and Randle is they might move the Knicks from “league joke” to “ordinary bad team” and people can STOP with this nonsense where they throw the Knicks in these ridiculous stories and pretend big stars care about playing in New York.

      This stuff comes from agents trying to gain leverage with who they’re really negotiating and media idiots who think the map between NYC and LA says nothing but “Here There Be Dragons.” If the Knicks could get to the point where they’ve got the talent to at least consistently flirt with .500 and THEN have some cap space open up, we might see players choose New York over place like Charlotte or OKC.

      Enough with the “Yeah, we’re the least talented team in the league and our front office has been a dumpster fire for a generation, but it’s still NEW YORK!!!!”

      Mike

    30. JK47 is the original theorist but I believe the idea is something along the lines of “the most annoying possible thing that could happen will in fact happen.”

      Tough to argue with historically.

    31. If the Knicks could get to the point where they’ve got the talent to at least consistently flirt with .500 and THEN have some cap space open up, we might see players choose New York over place like Charlotte or OKC.

      Ah yes, what the Knicks really need to do is exactly what they’ve been doing for the past 20 years in which they’ve been the worst team in the NBA.

    32. Just sign the shittiest guys you can find to one-year contracts and tank again. Renting out cap space would be nice but the chucklefucks that run the team can’t seem to get their heads around that.

    33. Oh god, is this horrible take day?

      I don’t see Kawhi/Durant pairing as ideal.

      Seriously? Kawhi comes here, as possibly the best player in the league, and you say na? Durant wants to come as a really injured, but was just the best player in the league, and you say na? THEIR PAIRING IS NOT IDEAL????? DO YOU NOT KNOW THE KNICKS? DO YOU NOT KNOW OUR ODDS OF SUCCESS- AT ANY LEVEL- IF WE DONT SIGN A GUY LIKE THAT?

      One advantage to signing guys like Rozier and Randle is they might move the Knicks from “league joke” to “ordinary bad team”

      DO YOU NOT KNOW IT IS BETTER TO BE A LEAGUE JOKE THAN AN ORDINARY BAD TEAM AND THAT IS THE LITERAL WORST PLACE TO BE IN THE NBA????

      Dammit, today’s bringing out the lolknicksfanbois in too many.

      If they don’t sign Durant or Kawhi, let them sign guys like robin Lopez, OQuinn, and maybe a guy like Mbah a Moute to make these young bucks understand how to play with no contracts over 1+1.

      No Cousins, Rozier, and long-term Randle and I’m happy. Even sign lance to another year I don’t give a shit.

    34. Cool, we’re reduced to debating if life of the Knicks obeys Dolan’s Razor or Dolan’s Law. This is the lowest point ever.

      I think what it means is not that the if something bad can happen it will. It means that if a bad decision can be made it will.

    35. I wouldn’t blame the Knicks or Perry et al if they miss on Durant or Kawhi. It’s gotta be brutal convincing them to come to the worst team in the NBA. I would blame them on fking up plan B.

    36. Most of the other free agents we’ve been linked to are shitty. Bobby Portis and Terry Rozier and Robin Lopez aren’t gonna do much damage to the 2020 tank. So we got that going for us.

    37. I agree with being in the purgatory of 30+ wins which is how we have gotten into this mess in the 1st place but there is a point where being the worst team in the league has to end eventually. The Free Agent class next year is atrocious assuming AD stays in LA and Kawhi/KD sign multi-year deals. You can’t go into every summer signing 1yr deals and continuing to punt cap space to the next year. They need to start acquiring young talent that has a future on this roster and it can’t all be thru the draft. Problem is this front office seems immune to the idea of using their cap space for trades and acquiring young, future assets. If we had a smart front office where they’d be saving future cap space to make smart trades then I’d be all for punting this off-season with 1yr contracts but they’re not so if they sign a handful of young players to decent contracts that will start to move the needle positively I’m not gonna bitch and complain about that.

    38. It’s an overstated misconception that being bad but not terrible is the worst place to be. The teams that are terrible tend to stay terrible because they are poorly run, even when they get the coveted high draft pick. 30 wins, with a combination of young players and movable contracts, is probably the best case scenario in 2019 for New York’s long term health as a franchise.

    39. That Willy trade is looking pretty good right now.
      FWIW, Willy was the 58th out of 63 centers in RPM (better by BPM and WS/48) and can’t get off the bench in CHA.

      And the 2020 and 2021 2nd rounders look like they’ll prob fall between 31 and 40 for sure, if not 31-35. 31 if they sign Mudiay to be their starting PG lol.

    40. I agree with being in the purgatory of 30+ wins which is how we have gotten into this mess in the 1st place but there is a point where being the worst team in the league has to end eventually.

      Wishing won’t make it so. The team is not flipping a coin and waiting for the tails streak to end — it is here because of its own comically-inept management. Continuing that legacy through more C+ free agent deals is not the path to success.

      The Free Agent class next year is atrocious assuming AD stays in LA and Kawhi/KD sign multi-year deals. You can’t go into every summer signing 1yr deals and continuing to punt cap space to the next year. They need to start acquiring young talent that has a future on this roster and it can’t all be thru the draft.

      You cannot acquire young talent except through free agency, trades and the draft. Free agency is a guarantee to overpay. Trades require more assets, and it is absurd to argue that you can easily trade overrated veterans for young talent. The draft is a crapshoot, which is why we need to double the number of selections and allow for natural selection from the roster.

      If this team had been trotting out 3-4 rookies a year over the last few years, can you imagine the roster being worse than it is?

      The best plan has been to stack draft assets, come up with a decent roster with cap space to burn, and either trade future assets when they become less valuable due to your team’s success (HOU, LAL). LAL, for one, does not give a fuck about future picks so long as they have LeBron, Davis and whichever near-max they give out. It might blow up in their faces, but it’s the right time to push the chips in, no doubt. The Knicks are not even close to there. They couldn’t be further from that point.

      I’d just like to know where these non-traded young talents are going to come from. You think we’re going to get a discount when competing against 4 other teams with a max slot available for Russell? That Randle is going to take half asking price for some odd reason? Hell no.

    41. That Willy trade is looking pretty good right now.

      Sure, ex post facto. I’m sure we all had the foresight to see that Charlotte would replace Kemba Walker with Terry Rozier (getting paid off of that torrid streak he had in the ’18 playoffs, I’m sure).

    42. “DO YOU NOT KNOW IT IS BETTER TO BE A LEAGUE JOKE THAN AN ORDINARY BAD TEAM AND THAT IS THE LITERAL WORST PLACE TO BE IN THE NBA????”

      1. Context. My point is that when it comes to attracting free agents, it’s better to be an ordinary bad team with cap space than a league joke with cap space.

      2. Why do people pathologically block out ALL the teams that suck for years without it ever paying off? Why do they pathologically block out all the rebuilds that never work out? The Clippers used to LIVE in the lottery and that produced how many titles? The Sixers tanked harder than any team in league history and if they lose Harris and JJ for nothing as free agents, where exactly are they?

      Now, the Knicks are so bad right now they probably are better off just taking on other team’s bad contracts. But it amazes me that people who would never bet their paycheck on winning the lottery are willing to bet years of their basketball-watching life on dumb luck.

      Mike

    43. Sure, ex post facto. I’m sure we all had the foresight to see that Charlotte would replace Kemba Walker with Terry Rozier (getting paid off of that torrid streak he had in the ’18 playoffs, I’m sure).

      I don’t have time to check now, but one of the factors for those in favor of the trade (or at least ok with the trade) even way back then was that it seemed likely Kemba would either leave or that he’d get the supermax thereby insuring the Hornets would be mediocre to bad, and those picks would end up being good.
      4D chess Jowles. You know how it goes.

      Seriously though – while you need to find a partner for trades and so you can’t always just choose the dumbest/worst team out there, you don’t think GMs think about what those teams will be like in the future when angling for draft picks in trade?

    44. I haven’t followed free agency too closely. Looking down the list of free agents, it’s hard to see a path that makes people happy, short of Leonard inexplicably leaving Toronto for New York with no other max-player’s in tow.

      A player who’s name never seems to get mentioned but is coming off an enormous season is Vucevic. I didn’t even realize he was a free agent until just now. He ranked in the top 10 of most advanced stats, plays defense, and is younger than Leonard, Durant, Walker, etc… With some seriously mediocre players set to make huge money today, is there a reason people aren’t clanging the bars for Vucevic?

    45. Yeah, the same guys who give out huge contracts to Evan Turner, Dion Waiters, Tim Mosgov, Andrew Wiggins, Courtney Lee, Joachim Noah, Zach LaVine, Aaron Gordon and the like are damned experts at knowing exactly where a 2nd round pick will fall three years later

      Get outta here bro

    46. I’d just like to know where these non-traded young talents are going to come from.

      Julius Randle was top 20 in scoring and rebounding last season. Terry Rozier was the starting point guard on a team that went to game 7 in the conference finals against LeBron. Those two guys combined, if you move early in free agency, might only cost slightly more than just signing Kemba or Kyrie.

      Sign those guys and let the rest of the cap space rollover and the Knicks could potentially enter next off season as a 30 win team that still has upside in Mitch and RJ, another pick in an odds-flattened lottery, and the space to chase a really good free agent.

      Of course, I believe next year’s FA crop is weak and a hundred other things could go wrong. But a hundred things can always go wrong, no matter what you do.

      Mike

    47. I’d be happy if our front office could figure out how efg% was calculated and then find players that have a high number in that category.

    48. I cannot believe people here are unironically arguing that we should sign Terry Rozier because he got hot for 20 games two years ago. Dude’s a PG with a career AST% worse than Mudiay’s but he’s also a mediocre shooter.

    49. I think there are still players worth taking flyers on.

      I would love to see some smaller value signings like Tyus Jones, Jordan Bell, Nerlens Noel, Delon Wright, Elfrid Payton (if cheap), Stanley Johnson (near the minimum). Those are all youngish players with upside that might be available cheaply.

    50. I cannot believe people here are unironically arguing that we should sign Terry Rozier because he got hot for 20 games two years ago.

      Yes but that was the playoffs he’s a RUFF RYDAH

    51. The Clippers used to LIVE in the lottery and that produced how many titles? The Sixers tanked harder than any team in league history and if they lose Harris and JJ for nothing as free agents, where exactly are they?

      The Clippers made multiple deep playoff runs, including one in which they knocked off an incumbent champion Spurs team. The Sixers just took the reigning champs to 7 games and may have been a friendly rim away from the ECFs at a bare minimum. They also have plenty of options and flexibility no matter what happens this offseason, and that’s despite the post-Hinkie GMs both mostly sucking.

      These are your cautionary tales?

    52. Instead of when you have two good outcomes with different path’s select the simplest, Dolan’s is with two terrible outcomes with separate paths, Dolan takes the most complex terrible path.

    53. Rozier seemed like a fun guy to have on a non-lottery rookie scale deal. He’s a legitimately good defender and gets rebounds other guards don’t. If you have good players around him he won’t destroy you offensively.

      It’ll be a lot less scrappy and folk hero-y and a lot more albatrossy when he’s making $15M AAV.

    54. Dolan’s Razor is predictive. You can always know what will happen with the Knicks, just envision the most irritating possible thing.

      Like finally tanking correctly and having the worst record in the year the lottery odds get flattened, in a year where a generational talent is available at the top. Falling to third in a two-player draft. Lining up perfectly to sign Kevin Durant, then watching Durant get catastrophically injured at the very end of the season.

      Some of those things could have been more Razor-y, I mean I guess we could have gotten the #5 pick instead of #3, and Durant could have sustained the injury AFTER signing with NYK. But for the most part, you can set your watch to the Razor.

      Anybody who doesn’t believe me, I will remind you that we have spent the last two days debating the merits of Boogie Cousins, Terry Rozier and Bobby Portis.

    55. Rozier is a good defender for his size, I’ll give him that, but I’d rather just let DSJ play and see where it goes than paying more than 5 million a year for Rozier.

    56. The Sixers tanked harder than any team in league history and if they lose Harris and JJ for nothing as free agents, where exactly are they?

      The people who tanked for all those assets are no longer with the organization. They’re now being run by an ex-NBA player, so don’t be surprised when they sign or trade for players with name recognition. I don’t trust Elton Brand to be a master of analytics:

      “Analytics is a great tool,” Brand said Thursday at his introductory press conference at the team’s practice facility. “We’ve built one of the strongest analytical departments in the league in my opinion. But I’ll bring the human side. I’ll bring the 17 years of evaluating talent and being on the court to add to the analytics.”

      AKA the Jalen Rose school of eye-test superiority.

      Ben Simmons is about to turn 23 and has a year left on his rookie contract. He ranked 11th and 16th in VORP in his last two seasons and has been incredibly durable (6222 minutes played). Embiid is 25 and signed all the way through his age-28 season.

      Say what you want about Ben Simmons’ scoring. Say what you want about Embiid’s durability. If the Knicks had a pair of players with even remotely that much potential or actual production, this board would be apoplectic with optimism.

      The Sixers are probably going to have to sign-and-trade Butler to Miami or Houston. Do you think they’ll get anything back on him?

    57. I wouldn’t mind Randle and Rozier if 1. they aren’t paid too much and 2. the Knicks also rent a chunk of the cap space to get a pick or two. But I have a feeling neither of those conditions are going to be met.

      I’d much rather try to get Gallinari + pick and Teague + pick, if the team wants a PF and PG, and they can even spin/market it as picking up two “stars” when the picks are really what you want. Of course, maybe those teams are not willing to send 1st rounders to clear those guys, but at least try.

      The Dolan’s Razor thing for me would be Boogie Cousins and Mudiay. That would be pretty awful at any price.

    58. Say what you want about Ben Simmons’ scoring. Say what you want about Embiid’s durability. If the Knicks had a pair of players with even remotely that much potential or actual production

      …they would have demanded a trade and the front office would have obliged for the benefit of opening up cap space for Randle and Russel.

    59. Get ready to be disappointed, very disappointed.
      After the circle jerk we’ve been engaged on this board for months contemplating countless scenarios including Zion, AD, Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, and/or Kyrie we will end up with a pu pu platter of B listers and wannabes.

      Our only hope is that Perry wields more decision making power than Mills otherwise we are very and truly fucked. Mills is too stupid to know how stupid he is , just Stay Out of The Way.

      Of the remaining possibilities some combo of Russell, Rozier, Randle, or Noel would be a reasonable outcome (given other Knicksy outcomes ) and might leave money on the table for future moves.

    60. I’d be fine with Randle; especially next to Mitch on D. I’ll pass on Rozier, unless he’s still around after other teams solve their PG problem. I don’t think he’s that much better than what we have, and I’m sure he will cost $7M per (especially if you sign him early). I’d actually rather sign TJ Mcconnell for $5M than Rozier

    61. @65 – that sums it up nicely. Knick fans have been put on earth to suffer and then suffer some more.

    62. THCJ, need to call you out on 2 things.

      1) when you are wrong on a trade like you clearly were about the outcome of the Wily trade regardless of why you were wrong you should admit it. It would make your gloating when right (which is more often than not) more palatable.

      2) you were touting MitchRob’s advanced profile as basically on par with the potential of that of an Embiid or Simmons. So you should stick w that position and act like we have a top 10 player in the making already on the roster. So in order to be the Sixers we need one more. Maybe that’s Barrett or one of the many picks we have upcoming.

    63. Sufferers were put on this earth to be Knick fans, not the other way around. This is a choice you all are making.

    64. If you take this team and add like Julius Randle and Robin Lopez and Terry Rozier to it, it’s still one of the worst teams in the NBA. This is one silver lining: it doesn’t appear that NYK will be even able to acquire enough decent players to lift the team out of the dregs of the standings.

    65. Jowles , can you give us an on the scene update on the clashes going on in Portland? It seems like folks can’t work well and play well together at the moment.

    66. Fuck the Proud Boys and fuck the GOP State Senators who publicly threatened the governor and State Police with violence for holding them accountable for being present as part of a legislature to which they were elected.

      But I’m hanging out at my house on the Eastside and it’s a pretty damn peaceful day in the other 99.9% of the city’s geography.

    67. I like Terry Rozier. I wouldn’t mind overpaying him a bit. He’s a winner. Sure, he regressed last year, but he showed improvement in each of his first 3 years and is a very hard-nosed defender. I believe in his 3-pt shot and he does enough other stuff to make him a plus player.

    68. The Proud Boys like to go into places here in LA that are mostly populated by docile hipsters, then try to act like bullying assholes and start fights. They’re not so “proud” to go try to fuck with anybody in East LA or Cypress Park or Carson though, lest they find themselves on the wrong end of a hail of bullets. They’re real tough guys in Silver Lake and Los Feliz though.

    69. THCJ, need to call you out on 2 things.

      1) when you are wrong on a trade like you clearly were about the outcome of the Wily trade regardless of why you were wrong you should admit it. It would make your gloating when right (which is more often than not) more palatable.

      +1
      Jowles has taught me more than I care to admit about how to evaluate basketball players, but he definitely should just take the L when it’s deserved. It’s ok Jowles, we are all wrong sometimes. Trust me – I know.

    70. it’d have to be the memphis pick i would guess. or more.
      BKN would hard cap themselves, then allow the Celtics to keep Horford with Bird rights AND sign someone to the full MLE AND get Kemba.

      Maybe BKN should ask for some pick swaps lol

    71. Luckily, since the Decision was spoiled, hopefully this will be spoiled, too. It is good that he isn’t dragging this shit out, at least.

    72. Sorry, but the trade still didn’t make sense at the time. Giving up a young, cost-controlled player (with a good offensive game) for a far-off future 2nd or two is still not a good play, especially when it hinges on whether Kyrie Irving leaves Boston, leading to Kemba Walker leaving and pushing CHA toward the #35 pick instead of the #42. Inanity to suggest otherwise. They could buy picks in that range but they are too fucking stupid to.

    73. Lillard extension 4 years for $196million! My calculator says that’s $49million a year. Wow. Isn’t KD’s max 5 years for $221million? Why is it “only” $40m/yr? Sorry for the ignorance here… I am confused.

    74. I too did not like the Willie trade. I don’t recall anyone saying that he was going to be a star, etc., but just that they seemed to be giving up very early on a guy on a real good contract who clearly had a couple of good skills: scoring and rebounding. His D was not good, but he also was not seeing the court much after a promising rookie year.

      There may have been something bad about him that the team knew that we did not, and thus the trade is looking better and better b/c he’s not improved at all. If so, kudos to the FO. Maybe Willie was KP’s late night party/womanizing buddy? Maybe he’s lazy and doesn’t work on his game?

      Perhaps they really did sell high on Willie and KP.

    75. Sorry, but the trade still didn’t make sense at the time. Giving up a young, cost-controlled player (with a good offensive game) for a far-off future 2nd or two is still not a good play, especially when it hinges on whether Kyrie Irving leaves Boston, leading to Kemba Walker leaving and pushing CHA toward the #35 pick instead of the #42. Inanity to suggest otherwise. They could buy picks in that range but they are too fucking stupid to.

      lol. the trade was 2/2018 so “far off future” was 2 years away.
      They were definitely down on Willy – wasn’t getting much playing time. Seems like maybe they knew what they were talking about with Willy, who will prob be back in Europe after this contract is up.

      There was always a chance of Kemba leaving because the Hornets’ management is so bad. I think even back then the over/under on those picks would have been about #38.

    76. @89 Lillard’s extension doesn’t start until 2021-22. Salary cap will be higher, so his starting 35% will be higher than people who sign extensions this year.

    77. Actually, my bad, it seems like the Sixers were not willing to give him the super max, which was important to him. Fair enough, I guess!

    78. lol. the trade was 2/2018 so “far off future” was 2 years away.

      Again, I take issue with the thought that these teams have a crystal ball in which they can discern which teams will yield the #31 rather than the #41. The faith in these front office guys is without merit.

      Obviously if I’m taking a Lakers pick in 2020 I’m not shooting for the #1 overall, but there’s so much room to move with a team like Charlotte that it would be silly to think they have that kind of granular foresight.

    79. honestly i will be so bummed if KD doesn’t choose the knicks. i get how it’s a huge risk to sign a guy coming off an achilles, but it would be so exciting to have a legit top 5 player in the league on the team, even a year away.
      I will be extra super bummed if it’s the Nets. Not because I don’t like the Nets, but it would just confirm I literally have no idea what to expect anymore. For the life of me I can’t imagine why Durant would leave GS to go to the Nets. If he wanted to stay with the Dubs, I get it. The Knicks I get. The Nets I don’t.

    80. He will never be top 5 again, bookmark it

      Maybe not, but even if he’s top 15, he’ll be the best player on the Knicks since Ewing.
      And it’ll be exciting again. Finally.

    81. Yeah, it’s fairly Knicksy to get one of the greatest players of all-time right after he suffers a possible career-ruining injury, but hey, in terms of bad ideas, this is one of their best bad ideas I’ve seen in years. If it happens, that is.

    82. having a good player on the knicks will be nice… but that will last for one offseason…

      if you dont win championships this city can be incredibly toxic… deservedly or otherwise….

    83. Wow – Marc Stein just tweeted that Brooklyn is confident they’re getting Durant.
      That would be such a bizarre decision. Esp with Rich Kleiman as his advisor.

    84. He also mentioned that the Warriors are offering Durant the full five-year max. Wow, that’s a lot of money.

    85. I think Durant was essentially a lock to come here before the injury, but I guess I can see the argument for wanting to play for a better team right away if you’re going to miss the first year. Brooklyn will probably be a playoff team without him this year and then when they add him the following year, watch out.

      That is, of course, if he does join the Nets. Just saying it makes some sense.

    86. If he and Kyrie go to the Nets, it means these guys don’t want to deal with Dolan. My guess is that they like the Knicks from afar, for obvious reasons, then they kick the tires a bit more and get cold feet. The idea of the Knicks is way more powerful than the reality.

    87. Stein was also the one saying that KD wouldn’t want to go to Brooklyn if it looked like Kyrie was the one bringing him there. Which is what this looks like.

      Who knows.

      Honestly i would have been absolutely CRUSHED if healthy KD chose a non-GS team over the Knicks. As it is, i’ll survive…

    88. i think if he’s made up his mind, he’s either staying in GS, or he’s going to the nets with Kyrie.

    89. Yeah, it’s a weird move by KD leaving GSW because he wants his team and his recognition and then he lets weird Kyrie drag him to the Nets.

      *If* it happens. Still might not.

    90. Yeah, this development with the reveal tonight makes me think he’s reupping with GS because they offered the full 5 years. If so, he’s also doing a favor to the Knicks and Nets in not dragging things out.

      If it is the Nets, yeah, that’s weird, but supposedly he’s a weird dude.

    91. I don’t understand why we are so interested in Lopez. He wouldn’t be a terrible fall back option on a small contract but you think we would target younger options like Bell or Noel or Bryant first.

      I don’t like that we seem to only be linked to aging players. There are some younger options that aren’t bad why don’t we chase them.

    92. @116
      I’d be tempted to say b/c Lopez may be less expensive, but when you’ve got $72m to spend, that doesn’t make sense. Maybe someone who is not a jerk to mentor Mitch? Noel seems rather flaky.

      I’d think Lopez would want to hook on with a contender.

    93. The only reason I want Durant at this point is it will save us from making far worse choices like Cousins.

    94. I’m really curious why Kyrie is so into the Nets. I think they’ve done a great job but they’re not better than the team he’s leaving. And they’re a totally irrelevant team in their own city.

    95. I get the injury risk with KD, but if he goes to the Nets that will mean that the New York Knickerbockers went into one of the biggest free agent off seasons in NBA history, and came up empty (or god forbid hit up the 2nd tier). And that the Brooklyn Nets, not long ago the laughingstock of the league for the Boston trade, will now be set up to be Eastern Conference contenders.

      It’s just too depressing to think about.

    96. I’d be down for signing Russell and Brogdon and passing on Randle, maybe signing Portis instead to save a few bucks. Portis isn’t really that good but he’d come at less of a commitment than Randle.

      I doubt Russell or Brogdon would turn into toxic assets. Those are probably both guys you could move for other stuff later. Kind of a backwards way of renting cap space.

      The pupu platter of Robin Lopezes and Reggie Bullocks is spectacularly uncreative.

    97. @117
      Yes, and for the “record” I don’t want the Knicks to sign anyone to a big deal, and that includes KD.

      And I don’t want Boogie at any cost.

      Fully commit to the rebuild. At least 2 full years (set a possible target for 2021 free agents). Build a full basement and ground floor before trying to add a penthouse on top!

    98. I like Randle more than Russell. Randle is truly elite at scoring and is both a good passer and a very good rebounder. His defense at the four isn’t unredeemable and next to Mitch he should be fine. Portis has too many question marks and is a bit of a cancer. two years on a big contract for Randle would be good that way if he isn’t the right choice we can walk away in two years.

      Russell is probably worth the risk but it wouldn’t shock me if he regressed.

    99. A healthy KD/Kyrie combo to the Nets would have been pretty painful to endure.
      Busted leg KD/Kyrie not so much.

      Let those chumps take the KD risk.

    100. I don’t understand why we are so interested in Lopez. He wouldn’t be a terrible fall back option on a small contract but you think we would target younger options like Bell or Noel or Bryant first.

      Same. How much is Noel going to actually cost?

    101. With all of Dolan’s bravado during his interview with Michael Kay a few months ago about how sure he was that big time FAs wanted to come to the Knicks would love to see his reaction if Kyrie and KD go to Brooklyn. Maybe he’ll rehire Isiah.

    102. Yeah, Janis and all — but Porzingis didn’t want to deal with Dolan/Mills either. No one does. It’s now crystal clear.

    103. Woj says Durant to Nets is done.

      Just like with Donnie Walsh, congrats on clearing cap space for no one!

    104. This is definitely the most irksome possible outcome. The ultimate challenge will be to stay the god damn course and not do anything Knicksy. There are a few viable paths that we’re all familiar with because we’ve been arguing about them for weeks, but any of them would be better than Harris and Boogie or whatever.

      Don’t. Do. Stupid. Shit.

    105. Various outlets are reporting Durant to the Nets as a done deal.

      We dodged a bullet. Hard to believe he gives them surplus value on that $42M AAV contract after that injury.

      I would take this to mean he would not have come to NYK even if healthy, so we can all feel less Dolan’s Razor-y about him getting injured in the playoffs. Not much of a silver lining but whatareyougonnado

    106. The Post and the News are gonna have a field day with this one. I may have to go into media blackout.

    107. I would legit like to see KD & Kyrie to the Nets and that’s not just sour grapes (~15% sour grapes). About 4 months ago I would have been devastated, but I have come to believe over the past few months that Kyrie might be one of the most poisonous locker room guys in the league and that KD at max money is not even close to a worthwhile risk (there’s a significant chance, however small, he doesn’t actually play another game of basketball). I dont think the Nets will be serious contenders for long, and though fans (all two dozen + bandwagon) will get a couple of exciting years filled with hope, it will ultimately end in disaster.

    108. Wonder if Joe Tsai is one of the reasons these guys are into the Nets. Straight line into the Chinese market.

    109. This is definitely the most irksome possible outcome.

      For me it’s not the most irksome possible outcome. The most irksome possible outcome may be yet to come, but I ain’t mad at missing out on decline phase busted leg Kevin Durant.

    110. The Clippers were irrelevant in their own city for decades. Then they got good, and their value skyrocketed. Good players make good teams which make money and gain fans. If any team deserves to be irrelevant in their own city, it’s the You-Know-Who-Bockers.

    111. Here’s the tweet.

      Stunned he’s going to Brooklyn but definitely not disappointed he’s not coming here. Now, we just need to get the front office to realize they need to rent out our cap space to teams looking to dump salary and get more picks.

    112. Marc Stein:

      If today’s events don’t make Jim Dolan take a step back and think about where the Knicks are as a brand — after, remember, Dolan himself promised big things in free agency in March — I’m not sure what will

    113. If the Knicks are still floundering at the 30s in wins, and if he pans out well, there’s no reason to think RJ Barrett won’t want out in three years.

      Notwithstanding the fawning media treatment, the team hasn’t in fact turned the culture corner with Pills and Fizdale; if it had, Porzingis wouldn’t have wanted out before he played a game and KD/Kyrie would be here. Let’s please not kid ourselves. The Knicks’ culture is utterly toxic.

    114. Dolan’s gonna fix the brand. All-Star DeMarcus Cousins is about to get a boatload of Jimmy D’s cash

    115. Hey I have an idea, let’s do a proper patient rebuild

      Like use our cap space to take on bad contracts and get some draft picks and shit

      Could work

    116. I just took a nap and woke up to this. I feel like a boxer who got hit with a haymaker and is pulling himself up the ropes trying to shake off the cobwebs. Did this really just happen?

    117. I really feel sorry for fellow Knicks fans who aren’t Yankees fans. Times like this make me even more grateful for being a Yankees fan too.

    118. Yes! So far.

      The FO should LEARN from this. Why did KD go the Nets rather than Knicks. Well, setting Dolan aside (though he is a factor in all of this), the Nets have good young foundation. The Knicks do not. Spend the next 2 years trying to build that. Mitch looks good. Maybe RJ. Maybe one of Knox/Frank/DSJ. Probably not, but keep making picks!

    119. we did dodge a bullet; but i’m worried about these salaries. doesn’t rozier’s deal become the bare minimum that randle asks for? Friggen Garrett Temple got 5m a year for 2 years.

    120. The media narratives are going to be real annoying and I don’t live in NYC so I’m immune to that. But giving a max contract to a post-Achilles rupture Kevin Durant would have been a real annoying outcome too. That is a fool’s gold contract.

      Best case, maybe you get one year of 90% Kevin Durant before the more steep decline starts. Best case. Worst case he’s a shell of himself. Likely case is somewhere in between and that does not seem like a real good gamble.

    121. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      This should be the final wake up call.

      This outcome was very predictable. Good players do not go to bad teams with obviously bad management. Sometimes good players even ask for trades when they know management sucks.

      The Knicks have MSG, the bigger name, and the way bigger live and TV audience. They even already had DeAndre Jordan. But the team with no draft picks that rebuilt by finding talent wherever it was available turned it around quicker and put itself in a position to get the players our incompetent management has been plotting to get all along. It’s laughable.

      All that said, this is probably a blessing in disguise.

      Kyrie is not all he’s cracked up to be and Durant at BEST has a very short window.

      If we had competent people in charge I would actually be happy about this outcome. But I know we have idiots in charge that have no idea how to evaluate players properly, how to develop them, or how to fit them together coherently to maximize a team’s output. Unfortunately, the rest of the NBA knows that also.

    122. Hey I have an idea, let’s do a proper patient rebuild

      Like use our cap space to take on bad contracts and get some draft picks and shit

      Could work

      No, it’s definitely more important to build a #winningculture. Spending a lot of money and trying our hardest to win 32 games is the only way to get better in the NBA I’m sure of it.

    123. We’ll know that just maybe Dolan has seen the light when he fires Mills and replaces him with a truly competent basketball guy. Not gonna happen.

      They just keep trying to BUY a good team when they need to build some relevance, first.

    124. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      If today’s events don’t make Jim Dolan take a step back and think about where the Knicks are as a brand — after, remember, Dolan himself promised big things in free agency in March — I’m not sure what will

      Dolan is clearly part of the problem, but the underrated portion of it is that he hires and often keeps terrible basketball people around too long or in positions where they do not belong.

      We could easily have Griffin and Bud, but we have Mills, Perry, and Fiz because Mills didn’t want to give up power and Dolan is too dumb to know better.

      That matters a LOT in how the team is built, developed, and maximized. Other teams have guys that understand how to value players properly, have the GM skills to match, and then fit pieces together well. They make fewer errors and find way more opportunities that we don’t even know about.

      We have fools in charge that talk a good game but don’t understand it.

    125. C’mon, Knicks! The T Wolves want Russell. Take Teague and a first rounder back so they can open up the cap room.

    126. If we had competent people in charge I would actually be happy about this outcome. But I know we have idiots in charge that have no idea how to evaluate players properly, how to develop them, or how to fit them together coherently to maximize a team’s output.

      You may be right, hell, you’re probably right. But we’re about to get some significant data points.

      There ARE creative moves to be made here, given the team’s salary cap space, position on the win curve and the number of teams still looking to add free agent pieces. There are some young players who might be worth an investment and there are teams that are looking to clear cap space.

      If we are to believe the rumors we’re hearing, and I don’t see reason not to, this FO is looking to fill the cap space with a bunch of dreck that has no future value. That would definitely reveal Perry to be just another clown who has no idea what the fuck he’s doing. But maybe there’s a small sliver of hope that the team invests in one of the more interesting young-ish free agents like Russell/Randle/Brogdon and uses some of the other cap space to acquire bad contracts and assets. It’s a faint glimmer of hope, I know.

    127. Dolan is clearly part of the problem, but the underrated portion of it is that he hires and often keeps terrible basketball people around too long or in positions where they do not belong.

      ***coughPhilJacksoncough***

    128. I just hope we don’t overreact and overpay guys to try and save face. Just stay calm, take on bad contracts, get picks. Don’t take short cuts. Build it the right way. We’ve put up with embarrassing crap for so long, what’s another couple years of sucking.

    129. Well at least Stephen A Smith will start the “sell the team” rhetoric on national TV tomorrow.

    130. Perry doesn’t have the power to make moves on his own, even within the “basketball department.” All he can do is suggest.

      Staying sane and not overreacting will be something akin to a miracle here. The default, expected outcome is using most or all of the cap space on second-tier free agents. Dolan just “lost” to the Nets two star/name free agents he bragged about and thought/was told were in the bag months ago. Getting them was not only going to be a big positive in itself, but it was going to confirm his internal narrative that Donnie Walsh in a wheelchair was the reason LBJ and the other 2010 class free agents didn’t want to come here.

      He’s a clear and present danger.

    131. Yeah, Perry hasn’t done anything dumb yet this offseason. The only thing that has gone “wrong” is that Durant blew out his Achilles. That’s not on Perry. If he does dumb one-year deals, then yeah, that’s on him.

    132. Somewhere Kristaps Porzingis is laughing his ass off

      (and I can’t stand the dude but he’s definitely grinning)

    133. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Dolan is clearly part of the problem, but the underrated portion of it is that he hires and often keeps terrible basketball people around too long or in positions where they do not belong.

      ***coughPhilJacksoncough***

      We should clearly put this to rest so we get along better. You know my opinion.

      Thickheaded arrogant mule.
      Great coach.
      Understands the game really well.
      Knows how to fit pieces together in a team concept.
      Would be better off in an advisory role where he points out the on court needs and issues and a competent GM supplies the players and contracts.

    134. This is fine as long as they make the right moves from here. Kawhi is the next dominoe and he’ll go LAC. Our job now is to become like the Nets and the Clippers (I can’t believe I just wrote that.) Draft well, sign value players and play a team oriented, hustling style. We need to OVERACHIEVE, not FUCKING TANK. Players want to come to fertile ground. That’s the lesson. People kept saying “You don’t want the eighth seed, meaningless first round playoff exit,blah, blah…” Well, don’t look now but the eighth seed is about to get the finals MVP.

    135. We could easily have Griffin and Bud

      We couldn’t actually, since Budz wanted to be coach and GM.

      I’m happy for the Nets and relieved that’s it’s not us taking the risk. Also relieved that the Harris’s of the NBA are signing other places. So far so good.

    136. From a basketball standpoint I’m not totally disappointed, I’m not too fond of Kyrie and Durant is a big risk, on the other side from a media/public perception this is a disaster of epic proportions.

      I agree with Stein, until Dolan is the owner no relevant free agent will come to play for us.
      We could grow the youngsters but at some point in the win curve you need to add a couple of meaningful pieces in free agency and that’s the thing that really scares me.

      Let’s hope they don’t sign Cousins or trade for Wiggins and instead use the cap space to get assets from other desperate teams (Covington and a first from Minnesota so they could get Russell?)…

    137. Thickheaded arrogant mule.

      Yes

      Great coach.

      Yes

      Understands the game really well.

      How’s it goink?

      Knows how to fit pieces together in a team concept.

      Carmelo Anthony in his 30’s seems like a good piece to build a contender around, let’s max him
      While we’re at it let’s bring in Joakim Noah’s mummified remains because pinch post
      Derrick Rose, there’s a guy who’s a good team player

      Would be better off in an advisory role where he points out the on court needs and issues and a competent GM supplies the players and contracts.

      Would be better off retired

    138. We couldn’t actually, since Budz wanted to be coach and GM.

      I don’t think it was that far, but yeah, he wanted more of a say if he was going to coach the worse team. Man, that did suck.

    139. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Yeah, Perry hasn’t done anything dumb yet this offseason. The only thing that has gone “wrong” is that Durant blew out his Achilles. That’s not on Perry. If he does dumb one-year deals, then yeah, that’s on him.

      There’s no way Durant would have chose NY over Brooklyn if he didn’t blow out the Achilles. He left the Warriors and paired up with the same exact player on another team. We lost.

      We lost because in the time Mills and Perry took over, the team got worse instead of better and those players did not want to go to a team that was in the middle of “unintentional” tanking process and too far away from their own championship timeline.

      Perry has only made a couple of obvious “action” errors where he made a bad pick or mildly bad signing/trade, but there are also errors of omission. Other teams improve themselves by finding things that fans don’t because they get paid millions of dollars to do so and have dedicated staffs thinking about it and working with agents around the clock. Perry has not done much to make the team better other than what was handed to him.

    140. Ok, I’m better now, thanks for all your concern, y’all.

      First, I am proud to been a firm no on Kyrie from the very beginning. I don’t like his game or his character.

      Second, while I am on record saying that I think KD has a decent chance of returning as a top-20 player for most of the last 3 years of his contract, I agree in principal with JK47 that there was too high of a probability that this would not have ended well for the Knicks to have wanted the KD/Kyrie combo. I said this even before the injury, but it was mostly out of dislike of Kyrie’s game. Post injury, the only reason I would have been excited about it would have been the marquee value. Purely intellectually, it was way too early in the rebuild to tie up 70-80 million in cap space in those 2 guys. Once AD went to the Lakers, there was no short cut that was desirable to me that did not include Kawhi. So even this morning, it was KD and Kawhi or plan B.

      I really don’t have any antipathy for the Nets at this time. They have done a brilliant job of rebuilding and deserve all the credit in the world. As the ugly stepchild in NYC it made far more sense for them to roll the dice on these guys than for us, just to win the back pages for a couple of years. It really never made sense for us.

      Seriously, look at our fucking roster. We have a promising defensive center and a bunch of rookies and sophomores, none of whom are even a sure-fire starter on a contender any time soon. What would be the sense in having KD and Kyrie here at this time? It would be another incredibly stupid win-now plunge into 5 years of early playoff exits.

      So for now, this is like getting a horribly painful medical procedure that will hurt for a while (days? weeks? years?) but ultimately we will look back on and be happy we went through it. Of course, that is IF we don’t squander the opportunity by doing something reactionary like we did with Amare and Melo.

    141. This is really a terrible outcome for Durant. Why wouldn’t he just stay in golden state? He’s clearly following Kyrie. To play in a city that will largely be against him.

    142. Yes, this could be a blessing in disguise but for our sanity we’ll better stay away from every media (social or not) for a couple of weeks, the Athletic already is out with a “Durant lets the Knicks in the wilderness” by Vorkunov…

      :-D

    143. I doubt that KD or Kyrie understand just how second fiddle the Nets are around here; either that or the thought of changing that on their own (which they won’t do) appeals to their egos.

    144. If the Knicks have a smart, solid offseason after this, it’s an incredible outcome for us. Better than signing Kyrie and Durant. We will have truly turned a corner. I’m optimistic.

    145. Maybe gameplan is get Kawhi and Russel.
      If not PATIENTLY REBUILD.
      No shortcuts. We will have our time. Dont use our cap for the sake of just using it.

    146. If the Knicks have a smart, solid offseason after this, it’s an incredible outcome for us. Better than signing Kyrie and Durant. We will have truly turned a corner. I’m optimistic.

      Totally agreed. I just worry about the likelihood of that if.

    147. I’m not nearly as upset as I am when the Knicks proactively do some dumb shit. The Knicks will not contend in the next year or two. Whatever, I’m not exactly accustomed to them being good. They’re still in an objectively good long-term position if they do the very basic stuff they should do.

      Plan A didn’t work, so we’re about to find out a lot about Perry/Mills. This is the hard part (although the concepts themselves are pretty straightforward—get every god damn draft pick you can, sign young flyer types, no marginal wins).

    148. the nets organization is pretty good… they will have a gm that will get the necessary pieces around them to win as many games as they can… as long they also hold up their end of the bargain….

      thats probably all it was… from a basketball standpoint the nets outdrafted and got better players on their team even after spotting the knicks 5 off seasons worth of picks…

    149. If these guys don’t at least attempt to use the cap space to take on a bad contract or two and gain assets, well then they’re really complete fucking idiots. There’s not really a good way to sugarcoat it. We’re at the absolute bottom of the win curve.

      Signs seem to be that they’re gonna go ahead and chase the 32 wins. Fuck these guys. I mean maybe they won’t go for the 32 wins, but come on, they’re gonna go for the 32 wins. Then they’ll fail to get the 32 wins because Bobby Portis and Reggie Bullock don’t win you many games, and they’ll win the same 21 games they would have won anyway, but without having extracted any extra assets.

      This is not exactly a galaxy brain front office we have here.

      PROVE ME WRONG, STEVE PERRY!

    150. Plan A didn’t work, so we’re about to find out a lot about Perry/Mills. This is the hard part (although the concepts themselves are pretty straightforward—get every god damn draft pick you can, sign young flyer types, no marginal wins).

      Even there, though, Plan A didn’t work because the dude blew out his Achilles.

      But yes, this is Perry’s “Second year Phil” offseason now. This is the tale of the tape right here.

    151. Congrats to KD & KI. They made both Net fans really happy.

      Emotional me feels rejected. Logical me thinks we dodged a bullet. I wanted a healthy KD but not the aging and injured player. I’ve always felt KI is poison. Still,
      It feels awful.

    152. I love that Deandre Jordan really is part of the Durant thing. It’s so weird. How the fuck did Deandre Jordan become Kevin Durant’s sidekick?

    153. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Carmelo Anthony in his 30’s seems like a good piece to build a contender around, let’s max him While we’re at it let’s bring in Joakim Noah’s mummified remains because pinch post
      Derrick Rose, there’s a guy who’s a good team player

      You either don’t understand the concept or just like to argue.

      What I am taking about is getting the correct balance of passing, scoring, defense, spacing, rebounding, ball movement, player movement, etc.. on the court to maximize team output and reduce diminishing returns. He understands that well because he’s a great coach.

      You are talking about being a GM, which is about specific contracts and players.

      If I tell you please don’t put Boogie and Robinson on the court together and can give you a detailed basketball analysis of why it won’t work, that’s an attractive attribute in a decision maker. (Mills thinks it will work because it worked in New Orleans with Davis lmao)

      That doesn’t mean I have the GM skill to select a really good player and give out a great contract.

      I might select Portis because he fits so well and pay him 20m. That makes me a bad GM even though I knew what to look for.

    154. How the Nets got their relevant players (the ones KD actually agreed to join):

      Jarrett Allen–draft pick from Andrew Nicholson’s salary dump

      Rodions Kurucs—draft pick from DeMarre Carroll’s salary dump

      Caris LeVert–draft pick from trading away a useless veteran in Thaddeus Young

      Spencer Dinwiddie—flyer on a young player who was good in college

      Gosh, it’s almost like the kind of moves a team in our position should be making are glaringly obvious!

    155. On the renting cap space thing.

      I’m good with it but am not sure we should be fantasizing about using too much cap space for that purpose. The plus side would be a first round pick. The downside would be that it would probably be a late one. Only a good team on the verge of getting better would make a deal like that, right? Also, now there’s someone who doesn’t necessarily fit our growth curve or team concept that might be taking minutes from someone that does. So, yeah, one or two more picks over the next few years would be sweet with those caveats. I don’t blame Perry / Mills for clearing cap or keeping powder dry. Now, if a good deal presents itself, sure.

      Play the kids now but sign guys that make us better. We see now that we need to be pretty good by the time Giannis is a FA, not be coming off a twenty win season and having picked third in the draft.

    156. Perry has not done much to make the team better other than what was handed to him.

      Well yeah, the team that was handed to him needed to be burnt down with the Earth salted beneath it. It had Carmelo Anthony and Joakim Noah and Courtney Lee. Was he supposed to build on that foundation? Getting worse in the short term to have a chance at getting good in the long term was 100% the right call.

      The Nets won out because they made very good draft picks with the picks they got from taking on salary dumps while we were signing Arron Afflalo. That’s it. That’s the lesson. We didn’t hoard enough assets. Hopefully that changes.

    157. Kawhi and NYK meeting should be interesting. I’d send Fiz alone and a few bottles of bourbon into the conference room.

    158. Noble,

      Yes, great post.

      We do have six picks in the next four years though, right? So, we’re set up to find players like that in the draft. Another couple of swings would be sweet but it does depend on the cost. The Nets had to do those dumps because they didn’t have their own picks.

      The lesson I think is, we really can’t afford to put out a door mat team, save a bunch of money, and throw it at a guy. Lots of teams are gonna have space and are already gonna be good. We need to get better and that means winning games and that means signing good players or seeing growth from our own. I’m so uninterested in boring veteran NBA players who’ve proved their worth or lack of. Giannis is only coming if we unearth some true value and start putting a competent product on the floor.

    159. Kristaps is smiling right.
      might be true.
      But we could also be smilng in the future when Mavs realized that he is not worth the max and when we are picking a future start from the pick in Porzingis trade :D

    160. TRUST THE PROCESS! Seriously tho, would you rather watch RJ lobs to Mitch all next season leading to a top 5 pick or Kyrie dying on screens with KD in a walking boot on the sidelines leading to 44 wins and a first round exit?

    161. Are we trying to save face or is this real??
      The New York Knicks and owner James Dolan were unwilling to extend a maximum contract offer to free-agent superstar Kevin Durant due to concerns over the recovery from his ruptured Achilles tendon, league sources told ESPN’s Ramona Shelburne.

      Durant had been heavily linked to the Knicks in the months leading up to his free agency, but he confirmed Sunday night that he plans to sign with the Brooklyn Nets.

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