Do You Think That the Knicks Will Trade For Chris Paul This Offseason?

The sports news is clear the league will start play on December 22 and about when the draft and free agency will start. But it doesn’t say when the trade window will open. Usually it opens before the draft. Does anybody know when?

I voted no but I’m n the fence. BR is reporting us and the clips want Russ. They have zero assets.

Knick fan not in NJ:
The sports news is clear the league will start play on December 22 and about when the draft and free agency will start. But it doesn’t say when the trade window will open.Usually it opens before the draft.Does anybody know when?

The details on when the transaction window will open — allowing for trades, as well as players opting in or out of deals — are still being finalized, but it will be two or three days before the Nov. 18 NBA draft.

I voted no because I think CP3 is still ring-chasing and knows it will not happen here. He has so much clout that even without a NTC I doubt that the Knicks would deal for him unless he really wanted to come here.

Even if he does want to come here, my hope is that the front office would only make a trade that included significant sweetener…like one of the Houston 1st rounders.

Thanks, Early Bird.

i’m going to keep the faith and hope with all these fresh faces we’ve brought in to the front office they can figure out a smarter way forward than paying someone a billion dollars a year for a club that may not win 50% of its games…

although, to be honest – i’ve said it a million times already, but, i really believe thibs needs a vet point guard…if it can happen, i’d rather we go after mike conley than cp3 for next season…

i’m going to just hope westrook doesn’t join the team…not a big fan of his one man show out on the floor…plus, his contract runs another 3 years…yuch…double yuch…

i do get the idea of the amar’e comp but i don’t see it. amar’e wasn’t just explosive, he was amazingly fluid and coordinated. toppin is miles from that. he’s more like larry nance sr on offense and amar’e on defense.

I voted no simply because I think a contender will save us from our own stupidity. The guy is simply too good for contenders to pass on for money reasons.

Gun to my head, he’s in Milwaukee next year.

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
Yeah, but Amar’e wasn’t very good until he was Toppin’s age. I know “development time” and all that, but you get years 22 through 26 on a rookie contract, and then, at worst, 27 through 30 on a rookie’s max extension. I still don’t understand the hype about grooming extra-young players. As you can see with our rookies, it doesn’t mean shit. Luka Doncic would be a superstar anywhere. Knox would be a waste of a roster slot anywhere.

It’s that most of the best players in the league are drafted very young. If you look at the 15 players who made the All-NBA teams this year 11 of them were drafted when they were 20 or younger. Only Lillard, Siakam, Butler, and Gobert were drafted over the age of 20.

The draft is a market. There may be inefficiencies, but it isn’t as easy to find them as we’d all like to think unless you are Pat Riley or some other god-like basketball mind.

What DRed said….

And agree, Amare was such a phenomenon athletically. It was like if Shawn Kemp could do ballet. He was so electric when he broke out.

I don’t see that in Toppin at all.

I’m glad this was asked as a “would they?” rather than “should they?” I think, for both questions the answer is
Westbrook? No and no
CP3? No and no.

This team, no matter what, is not ready for a talent. They need the cap space for the big free agent class of 2021. They have cap space and draft capitol. The objective should be to have a solid core of young players to attract the free agents. Solid core means that they need to compete and win (approach .500) this year with kids.

Owen:
What DRed said….

And agree, Amare was such a phenomenon athletically.It was like if Shawn Kemp could do ballet. He was so electric when he broke out.

I don’t see that in Toppin at all.

Amar’e was very good right off the bat, developed tremendously during his first 3 years. In his rookie year at age 20 his game was essentially dunks and shots inside of 10 ft (90%) and he added a jumper later. Toppin has a bit of a head start there, shot 41% from 3 on 103 attempts, small sample but still…

I think STAT had better hand-eye coordination and better interior footwork than Obi, but the lankiness, strength, explosiveness and athleticism are similar. Toppin is not Amar’e but he’s going to be a fun player to watch, especially if he winds up on a team with a good PG.

Meanwhile, Knicks have had to temporarily shut down their facilities after three employees tested positive for Covid. The pandemic fun never stops…

Amare could and did play center in the league. I don’t see Toppin as a center, which will make him difficult to play in the modern league unless his 3pt shooting is real and he ups his attempts.

IMO, Amare was a very very good offensive player before he broke down. His problem was that he couldn’t defend the paint at C and if you put him at PF it took away some of his quickness edge and ability to roll and finish. He eventually totally broke down with the Knicks, but you could see that awkward fit with Chandler and Melo at times. I never saw Obi play, but if he’s a legit stretch PF that could eventually start and he’s at #8, we’d have to at least take a close look.

Larry Nance was a really good player.

Amar’e was too, in his prime.

Boozer was pretty good too.

Question: what unsung player(s) from the late 80s, 90s, early 2000 would thrive now (like all-NBA) rather than back then? I think Dana Barros is one. Maybe Billy Owens and Chris Mullin too. Dale Ellis. Jack Sikma. These just off my head. Anybody else just a decade or two before their time to thrive?

Sometimes I wonder how Bill Laimbeer would do in the modern NBA.

Yes?
Tired of watching the Knicks with zero chance of winning and still not getting the right picks. Cp3 with the Knicks can still get some Ws and maybe if we play it right we can get a good pick. He could also reach out young guns and hopefully the trade is just a contract dump

Any maestros of the trade machine want to figure out if we can pry away Ricky Rubio and any other assets to help facilitate CP3 to Phoenix?

I’d sign off on that if there was a way to do it.

Ideally, we would be better off if we had a shooter at PG, but Rubio does a lot of things well, he can run a team, and he’s going to be productive for the remainder of his contract and probably longer. It would be nice to have a PG that can actually pass, make his teammates better, and also defend. It would also demonstrate that this management sees the value in things other than being a great athlete and creating your own shot like the previous management.

DRed: Amare was bigger than Toppin, he had like 20 pounds on him coming into the league and he was 3 years younger. Obi seems to hate leg day so he’s lighter than I thought-he’s 220. He will get absolutely mauled trying to guard NBA bigs.

This is the thing to me about Toppin. If you look at his closest physical comps, they’re mostly 3/4 hybrids, not 4/5 hybrids because of the weight. I think he’s going to need to improve his body a ton to be the player his fans see in him. Amare at his peak, for example, was one of the prime physical specimens in the history of the league. Everyone thinks of him in the PnR with Nash but he was a totally un-guardable isolation player also because nobody could match his size, strength, quickness combination in the mid-post. Toppin looks great jamming on mid-major kids at Dayton but Amare did that to Tim Duncan in the WCF.

I can live with CP3 if we don’t give up picks but I absolutely could not stand Westbrook.

I mean…I think Russ is actually a little underrated at this point. He’s a great player. But he is the exact opposite of what we need right now. At least CP3 could mentor some young backup PG we draft this year or next and would help the team learn to “play the right way.” Westbrook would just be isoing all day while the youngsters stand around and watch. I would be so upset with us making a trade for Westbrook.

Westbrook has always been a polarizing player. If we could get the player he was in 2016-17, I could resign myself to watching him iso’ing to the tune of a 40% usg and .530 TS% for the next 3 seasons while putting up monster triple-doubles one after another. But he turns 32 tomorrow. His decline phase might be uglier than Melo’s.

There is absolutely no logical reason to bring him to this team, no matter what we get as sweetener (which couldn’t be very much.)

This article is interesting, kind of supports the idea that we have to be careful when comparing bigs like Amar’e and Toppin across eras.

Buying low on Westbrook definitely is the worst idea in history. (*After the Eddy Curry trade)

It’s just totally insane and I refuse to even think about it.

Seems draft Twitter is solidifying around the top 7 being Ball, Wiseman, Edwards, Avdija, Toppin, Halliburton, and Patrick Williams — that would leave Killian Hayes, Kira, Vassell, Okongwu, and Okoro available to us at 8. For me, Okongwu and Okoro are out given that they can’t really shoot. Who would people want between Killian/Kira/Vassell?

Frank:
Seems draft Twitter is solidifying around the top 7 being Ball, Wiseman, Edwards, Avdija, Toppin, Halliburton, and Patrick Williams — that would leave Killian Hayes, Kira, Vassell, Okongwu, and Okoro available to us at 8.For me, Okongwu and Okoro are out given that they can’t really shoot.Who would people want between Killian/Kira/Vassell?

1) I wouldn’t listen to Twitter on anything
2) I have Hayes way above Kira & Vassell (I’d take Okoro or Okongwu over them too)

Chris Paul in theory could be an ok idea and I actually like Chris Paul.

There’s no universe in which Russell Westbrook could make any sense, and I detest Russell Westbrook.

I could enjoy a Knick team with Chris Paul, if the price and terms were right; I would detest a Knick team with Russell Westbrook and his chucking and his turnovers.

FYI I just meant buying low on Westbrook could work out for the right team (one with an excess of shooters that needs a penetrator) since he might only cost cap space… purely hypothetical!

I think Okongwu could play with Mitch since they can both defend the perimeter well. I also think Okongwu has nice touch and was decent from the stripe (72%). And he’s young. It would be a tough choice between him and Hayes.

I want Hayes, too. Knicks should thank their lucky stars if he falls to 8 and take him and never look back. Knicks being Knicks … they probably won’t.

I like Vassell, but he’s not an inspiring pick. He projects as a league average 3pt shooter and defense is always difficult to project at the next level.

thenoblefacehumper: Seriously guys, this kid is the real deal.

Seriously, he’s not.

The most basic version of the trade (Rubio to NYK, CP3 to PHO, Randle and Oubre to OKC, plus presumably Phoenix sending OKC a pick or two) works. Beyond the Rubio fit, what else, if anything, could we extract as a facilitator, either in picks or in a young player or two without much daylight on the Suns or Thunder?

ptmilo: if you put this trade in the machine it would probably die of boredom.

seriously, why even consider getting Rubio?

The situation in Houston with Harden and Westbrook is getting bad. Here’s a crazy deal:

Crazy thought: Westbrook and Harden for
Randle, Portis, Taj Gibson, Ellington, Payton, Ntilikina, Knox, and a 2020 1st rd (#27)

(Trade machine approved)

Z-man: seriously, why even consider getting Rubio?

Why are they supposedly considering CP3, Westbrook, or any other names being thrown around?

IMO, those are terrible ideas.

We need a PG,

Rubio would be a solid upgrade and a veteran leader, he’s still got some gas left in the tank, the contract is short enough and movable, and he’d probably fit well under Thibs because he defends too. It’s either something like this, more of the same nonsense, or some 19 year old not ready for prime time being handed the keys. I don’t see any perfect scenarios out there, but I think they want to upgrade PG for sure.

Well, I hope there’s nothing to the recent moves in the DoD/Pentagon with supposed “Trump loyalists” being moved into power at this time, for some reason. But, I do wonder what Trump is capable of due to his unreal narcissism and obstinance.

Were there ever really THAT many on the “left” who screamed that the Russians rigged the election? I don’t recall that being nearly to level that I’m seeing and hearing from the right currently. And that includes my right wing brother and a friend. I don’t recall any of my left leaning friends crying about Russia four years ago.

Yeah, Stroman opting in for the Mets is good b/c it’s just one year, and the Mets might even be able to flip him for a prospect (though probably not getting the same value they spent to get him) if things don’t go real well this season. So DeGrom and Stroman.

Trade for Russell Westbrook? W.T.F?

Were there ever really THAT many on the “left” who screamed that the Russians rigged the election? I don’t recall that being nearly to level that I’m seeing and hearing from the right currently. And that includes my right wing brother and a friend. I don’t recall any of my left leaning friends crying about Russia four years ago.

Here’s the thing: maybe 10% of Democratic voters believed this, maybe 50%, maybe 90%, whatever. It doesn’t matter because Democrats in power did not act on it. Hillary Clinton conceded the election the morning after it took place. Barack Obama at least tried to carry out a normal transition process. There were no serious efforts made to contest Trump’s (tiny) victories in the tipping point states.

People believe russia INTERFERED in the election, not that Russia stole it or rigged it. huge difference. The Mueller report basically confirmed that, the only question is to what degree the Trump team colluded with them. By the way, if you read the actual Mueller report and not the GOP talking points rom it, the report itself is far less forgiving of Trump and his team and basically says there was collusion.

But only the most extreme people on the left think Russia actually stole or rigged it.

And like it was pointed above, Clinton conceded on the night of the election. EVen though the margin of victory for trump was smaller than biden’s margin now.

I do think most of this is posturing to keep the base energized for the GA runoffs. There is still an outside chance DEMs can get a 50/50 split in the senate, which would be huge. So they want to prevent that.

But while I don’t think Trump will actually attempt a coup or be successful if he does, I do think this is just going to make life that much harder for Biden once he does take over, which is probably also their goal.

Guys, you’re overlooking one of the fundamental principles of the Trump Administration: the grift.

The donate links in Trump’s emails have 50% of all proceeds earmarked for paying off campaign debt.

If they concede defeat, the money stops coming in. It’s that simple.

Here’s the thing: maybe 10% of Democratic voters believed this, maybe 50%, maybe 90%, whatever. It doesn’t matter because Democrats in power did not act on it.

You mean beyond setting up a special counsel’s office staffed with like thirty lawyers to investigate it, and then talk about it in the major papers and a bunch of TV political talk shows every night for two-plus years?

GoNYGoNYGo – Ready for 2020 Knicks 2.0:
The situation in Houston with Harden and Westbrook is getting bad. Here’s a crazy deal:

Crazy thought: Westbrook and Harden for
Randle, Portis, Taj Gibson, Ellington, Payton, Ntilikina, Knox, and a 2020 1st rd (#27)

(Trade machine approved)

WHY!?!

“ You mean beyond setting up a special counsel’s office staffed with like thirty lawyers to investigate it, and then talk about it in the major papers and a bunch of TV political talk shows every night for two-plus years?”

Teeny, tiny problem with your logic here: the special counsel was appointed by Trump appointee Rod Rosenstein, who was approved by a Republican Senate.

Of course, it would be a nonsensical equivalency regardless as the Mueller report did in fact show a bare minimum of malfeasance and arguably illegality. Compare that to the ridiculous “irregularities” being alleged from Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

Teeny, tiny problem with your logic here: the special counsel was appointed by Trump appointee Rod Rosenstein, who was approved by a Republican Senate.

To continue an investigation begun by a Democratic administration begun well before Trump was even in office.

Let’s please not pretend the Democrats didn’t support the Mueller investigation; it’s embarrassing.

You’re an aspiring lawyer, here’s a word of advice: A really good lawyer knows their opponent’s arguments often better than their opponent even knows them themselves. Explore what’s going on and being said and argued outside the intermediation of those things by the left-wing echo chamber.

E:
The next big date is November 20, when the PA counties submit their final tallies and the SOS puts her name to it and actually commits to a number.At that point, most likely, the pending Supreme Court case truly ripens and we see what happens.Until then, this is all pretty much just noise, and the NYT and Yahoo “calling” the race doesn’t mean squat.

And to expand on the earlier statement about the Supreme Court case involving PA; the claim is that all the ballots received after 8 pm on election night are invalid because the statute governing elections has that as the deadline.The Supreme Court seems very inclined to accept that argument.“Voter fraud” has nothing to do with that; even a cosmically unfraudulent ballot is no good under the statute if it’s received too late.The Supremes ordered the PA SOS to segregate every ballot received after that time, reiterating what the Supremes were told in late October was going to happen; there’s every indication based on what Alito said in the document ordering it — I’d commend everyone to actually read it, it’s not that long — that it wasn’t done.

However, the number of votes received after polls closed in Pennslyvania only number about 10,000, with Biden leading by nearly 50,000. It will be likely a moot point for the Supremes to decide. It’s hard for me to see the court disenfranchising voters who cast ballots that were legal at the time. But that’s up to them.

I doubt that the Supreme Court will do anything to disenfranchise PA voters who acted on the PA SC’s ruling in good faith and would have no remedy at this point (as they would have had if SCOTUS had ruled before Election Day. They might give a clue as to how they would rule in the future, but those votes will surely count.

As to Georgia, the hand recount will not find 7500 Trump votes that went to Biden. Nor will they find 15000 net Biden votes to throw out.

This election is over.

sometimes – you just got to give the devil his due…exorcism continues: january 20th, 2021…

1. The Presence. The exorcist and his assistants become aware of an alien feeling or entity.

2. Pretense. Attempts by the evil spirit to appear and act as the victim, to be seen as one and the same person. The exorcist’s first job is to break this Pretense and find out who the demon really is. Naming the demon is the most important first step.

3. Breakpoint. The moment where the demon’s Pretense finally collapses, a scene of extreme panic and confusions accompanied by a crescendo of abuse, horrible sights, noises and smells. The demon begins to speak of the possessed victim in the third person instead of as itself.

4. The Voice. Also a sign of the Breakpoint, the Voice is inordinately disturbing and humanly distressing babel. The demon’s voices must be silenced for the exorcism to proceed.

5. The Clash. As the Voice dies out, there is a tremendous pressure, both spiritual and physical. The demon has collided with the “will of the Kingdom”. The exorcist, locked in battle with the demon, urges the entity to reveal more information about itself as the exorcist’s holy will begins to dominate. As mentioned above, there is a direct link between the entity and place, as each spirit wants a place to be. For such spirits, habitation of a living victim is preferable to Hell.

6. Expulsion. In a supreme triumph of God’s will, the spirit leaves in the name of Jesus, and the victim is reclaimed. All present feel the Presence dissipating, sometimes with receding noises or voices. The victim may remember the ordeal or may have no idea what has happened.

I doubt that the Supreme Court will do anything to disenfranchise PA voters who acted on the PA SC’s ruling in good faith and would have no remedy at this point (as they would have had if SCOTUS had ruled before Election Day. They might give a clue as to how they would rule in the future, but those votes will surely count.

The silliest thing is, as noted, that Biden doesn’t even need those votes to win. It’s so pointless.

mase: WHY!?!

To bring some juice into the Garden. This doesn’t give up the key pieces for the future: RJ and Mitch and they fit well together and the Knicks have most of their draft assets.

Personally, I don’t like it but it’s interesting.

I honestly think they just want to keep finding ways to whittle away votes from Biden anyway they can and they will do that in every close state until each race is as close as possible and only then will he concede but he won’t even really concede. He’ll just say the Dems did such a good job at cheating they weren’t able to overcome the thousands of fraudulent votes and he’ll throw every judge, poll worker, etc…who didn’t work in their favor under the bus whether they’re a republican or a democrat.

The end goal is to stay in power but the second goal, if the first one isn’t achievable, is to sow so much distrust into the election results that all of the people who voted for him will think Biden is illegitimate and he will have the most difficult time as possible when he takes over. He will also not help at all with the transition, will fire as many people as possible, pardon as many people as possible and do as little real work as possible in order to give Biden a total shit sandwich from which to work with. Making it that much more likely that in 4 years people will blame Biden for whatever state our country is in even if Biden has managed to climb us a little bit out of the huge hole trump has dug and is continuing to dig. Trump will then run for re-election or he’ll support another candidate who will be just like Trump except maybe younger and more dangerous.

His supporters will lick it up all the way. The “deep state” now includes everyone who voted for Biden, all major media outlets, all doctors and scientists and all world leaders who are against him. Its everyone vs. him and his followers. They are the true victims here.

And it will be even harder to reach them bc they’re all going to silo themselves off on parler. So we truly will all be in our own political bubbles.

…or what Swift said…

One other thing: the round of questioning from Roberts & Kavanaugh during the ACA hearing yesterday suggests that there may still be enough justices on the Court who possess a genuine desire to maintain at least the perception of it as an independent, relatively non-partisan branch of the Federal government.

While I personally harbor no such illusions, I do believe that Roberts (in particular) has little appetite for running roughshod over every pro-Democratic or left-left leaning legislation that comes before the court. Both Kavanaugh and Gorsuch seem to be on board with the program of throwing the left an occasional bone in order to help bolster the Court’s legitimacy in the public eye. Unlike far right True Believers Thomas, Alito, and (perhaps) Barrett, the other three conservative justices strike me as savvy political operatives willing to play a long game and keep their powder dry for when it’s time to make favorable rulings on those cases that are at the top of the Republican wish list.

With that in mind, I can’t see them sticking their necks out for the sake of tossing 10K votes that won’t materially affect the outcome in PA. If the election hinged on those votes, sure. That’s why the Court left the option open to revisit it after the 4-4 tie the first time around. But given the way that things have played out since that ruling, I strongly suspect they’ll decline to rehear the case and run the risk of pointlessly tarnishing the image of the Court as an impartial umpire, only interested in “calling balls and strikes.”

I voted no in the poll, but if trading for CP3 means we don’t trade for Westbrook, then I am down for that. I’ve read a lot of takes on why trading for CP3 is a good move, but I kind of want to see what Thibs does with the guard rotation as is and whether he can get something out of DSJ and Frank.

Mitch McConnell is a lot of things, but no one has ever accused him of being stupid. He must recognize that the Republican Party is the primary beneficiary of the current system, and that enabling Trump to dismantle the system is the equivalent of committing party suicide.

Something happened in the early 2000s whereby the citizenry now takes politics far too seriously. Probably social media and the eclipse of something else that used to serve the function politics serves today — maybe religion?

Do people realize that all that head of state, king and queen, and Her Majesty stuff in Britain is intended for the masses and not the smart people? I really don’t think they do. The hourly obsession with the American head of state and the hopes and wishes and yearnings heaped upon him/her speak pretty strongly otherwise.

Now as to the more mundane stuff, I’m a lawyer and so I’m all about oaths, affidavits, court filings, declarations. A statement to a bunch of reporters means nothing. So I’ll believe there were only 10,000 post-8 pm votes when it’s put in a filing under penalty of perjury and cross-examination. Maybe it will be. If it is, there’s no case left if current conditions stand. The Alito statement is grounds for great skepticism on the matter. But we’ll see. Like I wrote earlier, everything we hear until the actual certification is pretty much just meaningless noise.

For example, the Crown in the UK has little effect of policy matters, whereas the POTUS, as we’ve seen, has enormous influence over the government.

Yes, POTUS is head of state and head of government here. I see the obsessions over him/her as being more aimed at the latter function than the former although there are grounds to dispute that. I can’t forget the precise wording, but supposedly Marc Maron did a podcast a day or two ago when he basically opined that the head of state ground or balances the populace. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. The president is typically caricatured on SNL, for example, in his role as head of state, not government.

Also, Michigan and Arizona have state laws mandating the electoral delegation to vote for the candidate the state has pledged them to. The PA legislature has indicated that they are not interested in playing along, which leaves just GA and WI, neither of which would be enough to get Biden below 270, even if every elector in both of the delegations voted as faithless electors.

All states, with the exception of Maine and Nebraska, have that rule (which is why we have for example the “NE-2” electoral vote, which I think Biden flipped). The issue in the case isn’t that, though, it’s whether the popular vote that decides the electors was done in accordance with the laws passed by the legislature (which has the ultimate constitutional power). And then if they weren’t — if for example the SOS counted votes that came in after 8 pm in PA — does the legislature have the authority to then use its inherent power to name electors itself. Yes, that’s a matter of will and desire too (*), which is why I’m watching statements by state legislatures very closely. All the swing states except NV have R legislatures and they’re ultimately constitutionally empowered with potentially significant authority.

***All states, with the exception of Maine and Nebraska, have that rule***

Arizona and Michigan specifically have laws that, once the election is certified, invalidate faithless electors. The Supreme Court unanimously upheld these laws over the summer.

Also, despite all the hollering on election night over “the polls were wrong!”, the aggregate average of the polls is going to get every state right with the lone exception of a Georgia, which the polls had in Trump’s favor by 1%. The only state that was well outside the margin of error was Wisconsin, which, given the covid outbreaks there in the weeks leading up to the election, isn’t that hard to explain. IF there was widespread voter fraud, that would explain the discrepancy in the pre-election poll numbers. But, seeing as the little discrepancy that there was worked in the Republican’s favor, and the fact that down ballot republicans did exceedingly well against expectations, it’s a little hard to accept that a vast interstate conspiracy of deep-state Democrats influenced this election. And John Roberts, among many others, knows it.

I want to take you seriously. Frankly, I can’t remember your basketball points very well, which is really the only way to grade people’s character here.

oh shit, i’m in trouble…

Twitter aflame right now after Charania says Westbrook requested a trade from Houston.

Early trade scenarios pointed by Twitter people include the Clippers and, of course, the Knicks.

Donnie Walsh: ***Starting with Bush v. Gore, there have only been two elections (Obama in ’08 & ’12) in which the losing side did not seriously question the legitimacy of the winning side’s victory throughout the course of its term.***

Umm… have you forgotten the eight straight years of “Obama was born in Kenya”?

Ha! Right you are, sir. When I posted that earlier, I was primarily focused on post-election complaints from the losing side about the integrity of the voting process itself. The Dems had fact-based complaints about widespread disenfranchisement in ’00 (FL), ’04 (OH), as well as ’16 (multiple states) to go along with their allegations of Russian interference. Now it’s the R’s turn to grouse about rampant voting “irregularities” despite failing to produce a shred of evidence to support those claims.

That playbook would not have gained any traction in ’08 & ’12 due to Obama’s overwhelming margins of victory. So – as you correctly point out – the GOP went another route & ginned up Birthergate as a means of undermining his presidency. All of which goes to further illustrate just how utterly unremarkable it’s become for an (Electoral College) minority of the electorate to sow doubt about the legitimacy of a president elected by an (Electoral College) majority, no matter how small or large the victory. It’s been an entrenched feature of US politics for some 20 years now and did not originate this year with Trump.

Which would the board prefer:

a) Trump in the White House until 2024

b) Westbrook on the Knicks until 2023

FWIW, I was “meh” on the Melo trade (didn’t like it but did not hate it anywhere near as much as did many here); was negative about the Phil Era from Day One (never understood handing over the keys of basketball operations to a septuagenarian ex-coach who’d never done it before); was unhappy about the Knox pick as soon as it was announced; and am still a fan of Frank and remain irrationally invested in hoping to see him succeed as a Knick.

In other words, my political takes should probably be greeted with a healthy dose of skepticism on this board..

It’s been an entrenched feature of US politics for some 20 years now and did not originate this year with Trump.

Constant refrain from me by now, but that’s all because of social media. This bullshit used to be relegated to street corners and corner stools in seedy bars, but now it has an outlet with cheap global range, and a built-in support system. The old social cues way of signaling that they’re nuts to a person slinging loon bullshit have all been eradicated and actually reversed.

We all gotta pull together and stop talking Westbrook to the Knicks into existence. Just need to keep quiet and pretend it’s not a thing.

Russ looks like his preferred destinations are the Bucks, Lakers, Clippers or Hawks. Looks like we dodged a bullet.

Westbrook’s last year is 47 million who the fuck wants some of that?

Technically, they wouldn’t have been “legal at the time,” given the statutes on the books and the constitution,

To clarify, didn’t PA supreme court say that they would count? Which would mean they are legal, unless SCOTUS overturns a state court interpreting state law. Doesn’t seem against the us constitution as other states accept mail votes late as long as the postmark is timely. Timeline seems like it would matter re: disenfranchisement as PA court decided this well before the election.

This is oddly more comforting than thinking about the Knicks trading for Westbrook.

E — *He’s not going to drop that far, but if the Knicks get him at 8, he’ll be a steal.*

Your legal opinions are now gold, as far as I’m concerned.

ptmilo, delivering the custom made aneurysms.

So now Parler, yet another ideological echo chamber, is booming. Which means we’re at a point where the two hyped-up political tribes can’t even co-exist on Twitter.

Republic is doomed. The geographic and social sorting that started in the late 70s/early 80s started the doom, social media finished it. Time to figure out the way to divorce. The Knicks going through customs to play not only the Raptors, but also teams like the Thunder, is a bit of a bizarre thought — but there’s really no other choice at this point. I don’t think it’s really that much of a stretch, if it’s a stretch at all, to say that the two cultures that reside in the US are less compatible now than they were in the run-up decades to the Civil War.

Nice article in the Athletic today about the Rockets. Westbrook comes off as the over-officious pain-in-the-ass one-man chemistry wrecker who no one can stand that he obviously is. Giving that clown the run of the Garden is a positively nauseating thought.

So now Parler, yet another ideological echo chamber, is booming. Which means we’re at a point where the two hyped-up political tribes can’t even co-exist on Twitter.

Time to figure out the way to divorce.

Maria Bartiromo is actually leaving Twitter for Parler soon. I follow her on Twitter for business news. It’s not ready for prime time. However, the only reason it exists is the perception of a double standard. It wasn’t that people couldn’t get along. You can mute or block anyone you want. Twitter did this by being political.

I’m not even sure why “divorce” is such an ugly thing to consider.

We choose our friends, spouses, business partners etc.. based on common interests, common goals, common values, trust etc.. We compromise on the small stuff and everyone is fine despite small differences.

But some differences are deal breakers. So we get a divorce, buy the partner out etc..

You can compromise on whether tax rates for some individuals and businesses should be raised and by how much. But we are at the stage where the differences on economics and other issues are so vast, it’s hard to find the compromise that makes anyone happy. I doubt it will ever come to that, but if it did, I would be one of the few that would consider it very unfortunate (kind of like when a friend gets divorced) but maybe for the best.

He’s 32 and he has no jump shot to rely on as his legs age. He never before played below the rim. Never. There’s no “down year” talk. He’s aging. And badly. End thread.

Yeah, I’m with Jowles here. Sure, Russ is 3 years younger than CP3, but his game is so reliant on his athleticism that its not going to age well. Maybe he can have one bounce back year but then there’s a season after that (and a player option for the season after that, which he’ll probably take if his play declines).

He is not a pass first PG and he has no outside shot. I would much rather have CP3 and I really don’t want us to get CP3 either! But CP3 at least has that old man Jason Kidd vibe about him where he’s still going to be a useful player because of ball movement and his ability to hit outside shots.

Russ in his prime was a badass no doubt. A complete terror who plays at 120 percent. I respect the hell out of him and what he did that first season after KD left OKC was truly incredible to watch. But its all athleticism, no outside shot, iso based offense. Its the opposite of what we need right now.

I honestly don’t see a lot of trades out there for the Knicks except one that swaps Randle for a bad contract and draft assets.

In the draft, I feel like the FO is going to be focused on Kira (since they won’t be able to trade up), either at 8 or in a trade down to grab an extra asset. For the next two picks, they’ll probably take either Stewart or Woodard at 27 and Quickley at 38.

Agree that fracture and having essentially a Trump party and a more mainstream Conservative party is good overall. I believe there are many among the 70+M who would stay center. Will be interesting to see what Murdoch will do from a messaging/content standpoint.

This begs the question, did you ever entertain the idea of being a sports writer/reporter?

Nope. Sportswriters can’t be fans: “No rooting in the press box,” and all of that. Also, way too much travel, plus reporting is something I’ve never had much skill for or interest in. Amateur sports coverage was as far as I was willing to go.

I remember writing a really long Yankee prospect post once for the alt.baseball.yankees newsgroup, or whatever it was called, where I went on and on about what a promising player I found Dave Silvestri. As always, I am an idiot whose sports takes are not to be trusted.

I read the “keeping Harden accountable” thing as “Harden’s chucking too much, I want to be the one chucking.” Westbrook thinking he has the standing to keep (superior) teammates “accountable” is among the reasons I want nothing to do with him.

It’s a bummer seeing the number of Knicks fans talking themselves into a Russ trade on social media. They even got netw3rk! Tortured-ass fanbase.

There’s no way Leon Rose makes a Westbrook trade, right?

Russ to the Knicks makes zero sense for either team. I wonder if the Spurs would be a good fit for him? They have shooters, and Pop probably could maximize his skill set. Maybe Indiana or Orlando? There aren’t a ton of great fits out there, even if you believe he’s a net-positive player.

What scares me more than trading for Russell Westbrook is the very real possibility that the Knicks are convincing themselves that they could potentially trade for Harden at the deadline and land Giannis in free agency.

If Rose calls Houston and asks about Harden and they say they want RJ Barrett, Mitchell Robinson, the #8 pick, the #27 pick, and both Dallas picks do you say no?

i went by myself to yankee stadium to watch sam militello’s debut against hte red sox (7 IP 1H 0ER) bc i was so convinced he was it. he had 11 more career starts.

My 7th grade self was absolutely convinced my Joba Chamberlain first start ticket stub was going to be priceless one day

Hey , I was at the Garden for Rick Carlisle’s Knicks debut: 21pts, 6asts, 9-12 shooting, 19.2gamescrore in 34 mins. I was like “Bianchi strikes gold!!!”. I saved my program. I started printing #3 New York Knicks Rick Carlisle jerseys to sell on 33rd st. I was gonna be rich!

Carlisle followed that game up by going 20-61 for the rest of his career and was out of the league 158 minutes later…

(I felt somewhat vidicated when, 14 years later, he won coach of the year his rookie coaching season. But the box of jerseys were moth eaten by then, so I couldn’t capitalize outside of Auburn Hills)

Don’t even get me started on those midges, guys. I’m still furious Torre didn’t pull the whole team off the field to protest the conditions.

A commonly espoused theory that makes absolutely no sense but *feels* true is the midges are what derailed Joba’s career

Westbrook has consistently trended downward the last few years. He was barely above average last year during the regular season. He was Knox-level bad in the playoffs.

I’d put it to a coin flip if Westbrook puts together an above average season ever again.

I think that if Westbrook were to come to the Knicks, you’d see his BPM go up simply because his touches will increase quite a bit, and he has always been a more-than-willing passer. Between 2013 and 2019, he ranked 4th, [injured], 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, and 1st in total assists. Last year, he fell to 17th simply by playing with Harden, who has led the league in FTA in all but one of the last 8 seasons, this past year beating out #2 Giannis by a margin of 800 to 629, and who led #2 CJ McCollum (???) in FGA by a margin of 1514 to 1356. When you’re talking one-man offensive schemes, it’s no surprise that there’s simply no equal to James Harden out there.

So yeah, Westbrook will end up somewhere else, probably, and he’ll probably get right back near the top of the AST leaderboard, which is a good thing, but it won’t fix his shooting. Over the last three years, he’s had a TS%+ of 94, 90 and 95, which is dreadful when you’re talking about a guy who ranked 1st, 8th and 8th in total FGA.

And of course, he’s aging. There is no stopping that train. Anything you get next year, free of Harden’s weird black-hole space-time distortion, is likely the very best you are going to see from him. And then add two more years and $90M to that.

Also, I definitely had Joba as a first ballot hall of Famer after his first year and 60 IP or whatever it was

“pepper
November 12, 2020 at 4:46 pm

westbrook coming here is in the long tradition of knick/ranger deals of “stars” on the tail end of the career or fast approaching the tail end due to injury, etc…..going from memory…rolando blackman, kiki vandeweghe, stevie francis…tracy mcgrady…kidd…billups..amare…and on and on and on..”

Rolando came to NY as a ring-chaser, so he doesn’t fit. And it wasn’t so much McGrady the Knicks acquired but his contract, so he doesn’t fit either. And Amar’e was 27 and clearly still in his prime, not the tail end when he was signed. And Billups was a throw-in to the Melo trade, not a focal point. And Kidd was brought in (and paid the appropriate amount) to be a role player.

That said, Westbrook would certainly join the likes of Francis, Glen Rice, and Larry Johnson, and to a lesser extent guys like Antonio Davis, Jalen Rose, Malik Rose, Bargnani, and Camby’s return.

We are allowed to have in-person workouts with only 10 prospects. Who we work out doesn’t definitely correlate with who we’re likely to draft, but it’s interesting. So far, we only know of four of those players:

Obi Toppin
Kira Lewis Jr.
Saddiq Bey
Devin Vassell

Bey seems like someone we’d only take in a trade-down situation. I still don’t want Toppin. Wouldn’t mind Lewis or Vassell, depending on how the lottery unfolds (and also depending on if we take them at 8 or lower).

Was just listening to Spencer Pearlman, who really bothers me, and it made me wonder who everyone’s favorite draft prognosticators are…

I might have to pick Vecenie. He can be annoying, but he seems pretty objective and really tries to dig for info.

As a long-time Yankee despiser who was grooming his 8yo son to hate the Yanks, Celts and Pats as much as I do, the Joba “midge” game was most enjoyable. It was like a 10 plagues moment for diehard Mets fans, especially in that it occurred when Yankees fans were at an insufferable level of arrogance, crowing about the merits of A-Rod, Clemens and Giambi…and future HOFer Joba. Ahhhh…good times, good times…

I was as intense a Yankee fan as there was growing up, and the 1978 and 1996 World Series victories were pure joy. But once the parade of asshole free agents started (Kevin Brown, Giambi, Clemens, A-Rod,etc.) I became less and less of a fan and now I could care less whether they win or lose.

(Although Mariano Rivera is still one of my favorite athletes ever, both for his achievements and incredible class.)

Berman is saying the Knicks are weighing wether to take Vassell or Kira at #8 or trade down to get one of them a few selections later along with an asset.

Bondy says the FO is interested in selecting Pritchard.

Because phrasing is important (even if you’re not Sterling Archer), here’s exactly what Berman wrote:

Sources have indicated the Knicks are weighing whether either Vassell or Lewis are worthy of the eighth pick or if they should trade down a few notches to gain an asset, with the chance to still nab either of them.

The Knicks’ priority in this draft is to take a scoring point guard, with southpaw sensation Killian Hayes high on their radar, but that’s not a given. Hayes may not even be there.

So it’s more that they’re trying to figure out if either of those guys is worth the 8th pick, rather than them being comfortable with them at 8 right now, but exploring trade-down options anyway.

Hayes is the guy I’d like most(*), and it feels like we can probably get one of Vassell or Lewis with a small trade down, but I wouldn’t hate either guy at 8, and they’d be much better than a lot of other options.

(*) As discussed earlier in the thread, my sports opinions are terrible and should be ignored. I don’t even know why anyone reads them. Or why I write them.

***Berman is saying the Knicks are weighing wether to take Vassell or Kira at #8 or trade down to get one of them a few selections later along with an asset.***

Nbadraft.net has the Knicks passing over Kira with the 27th pick in favor of Zeke Nnaji. (And Kira going to the Lakers at #28).

I think it’s a given that they would take Obi at 8 if he’s there. After that, they probably prefer one of Vassell/Lewis. Getting a good shooter is a must, so Okoro is out. Okongwu and Williams are probably out. It’s hard to tell where they stand with Killian, although I can see Thibs preferring Kira, who is kind of a D.Rose lite.

Personally, I like the idea of Haliburton, but maybe it’s a given that he will go earlier than 8 now.

okoro is not good… and there is almost certainly a better player available at 8… ramsey isn’t terrible with the other first…

GoNYGoNYGo, I was also at Game 6 in 1996! We were sitting in the loge section, and when Girardi hit that triple off of Maddux, the crowd reaction made the place shake so badly, I worried the whole loge might collapse. Boggs was not an all-time Yankee, but him on that horse is an all-time Yankee moment.

That’s the only WS clincher I ever got to attend, but I was also in the building for the Mr. November game, which was nuts and glorious in its own way.

Barf, barf, barf. From Macri’s newsletter today:

Remember two days ago, when I said I’d heard nothing to make me think any inquiries the Knicks have made into Russell Westbrook were anything more than due diligence? Yeah…soooo…things have apparently changed.

According to multiple league sources, the Knicks have discussed the specifics of a package that would bring the 2016-17 NBA MVP to New York. The sources indicate that none of the Knicks’ key young pieces are on the table (read: RJ, Mitch, and as far as I can tell, Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina) nor will they be. The same goes for any of New York’s own draft picks. I’ve heard Julius Randle would be going, along with some sort of draft asset – maybe 27, maybe 38, maybe one of the Dallas picks – but I can’t confirm which.

I want to emphasize that this does not – I repeat NOT – mean that a deal is on the verge of happening. I don’t know how many stages are involved in NBA deal-making, but the impression I’m getting is that things have now moved past Stage 1.

ess-dog:
I think it’s a given that they would take Obi at 8 if he’s there. After that, they probably prefer one of Vassell/Lewis. Getting a good shooter is a must, so Okoro is out. Okongwu and Williams are probably out. It’s hard to tell where they stand with Killian, although I can see Thibs preferring Kira, who is kind of a D.Rose lite.

Personally, I like the idea of Haliburton, but maybe it’s a given that he will go earlier than 8 now.

That’s what’s frustrating. That’s not what happened. For reference, here’s the 38 picks they did….
1 MIN – Anthony Edwards
2 GS – James Wiseman
3 CHA – LaMelo Ball
4 CHI – Deni Avija
5 CLE – Obi Toppin
6 ATL – Devin Vassell
7 DET – Killian Hayes
8 NYK – Isaac Okoro (I would have taken Lewis or Haliburton)
9 WAS – Kira Lewis
10 PHX – Tyreese Haliburton
11 SAN – Omyeka Okogwu
12 SAC – Aaron Nesmith
13 NO – Tyrese Maxe
14 BOS – Precious Achiuwa
15 ORL – RJ Hampton
16 POR – Patrick Williams
17 MIN – Saddiq Bey
18 DAL – Desmond Bane
19 BKL – Jalen Smith
20 MIA – Tyrell Terry
21 PHI – Cole Anthony
22 DEN – Josh Green
23 UTA- Robert Woodward II
24 MLW – Malachi Flynn
25 OKC – Aleksej Pokusevski
26 BOS – Leandro Bolmaro
27 NYK – Jahmi’us Ramsey (I would take Stewart)
28 LAL – Cassius Winston
29 TOR – Grant Riller
30 BOS – Jaden McDaniels
31 DAL – Isaiah Joe
32 CHA – Daniel Oturo
33 MIN – Isaiah Stewart II
34 PHI – Nico Mannion
35 SAC – Jordan Nwora
36 PHI – Killian Tille
37 WAS – Xavier Tillman Sr
38 NYK – Imanuel Quickley (Redundant if they take Ramsey but good if they took Stewart)

Third generation Yankees fan (grandpa was a huge Roger Peckinpaugh supporter when they played at the Polo Grounds).

Loved going to the stadium in the 80’s. My dad and I would park on the street by the ball fields, lock whatever ridiculous anti-car theft device we had on hand – Chapman lock or The Club, or some Club knockoff from a flea market and walk along River Avenue. We would always check to see how many tour buses were parked outside in the Kinney lots to get a sense of the crowd. Most games were sparsely attended, but you had Rickey Henderson, Dave Winfield and Don Mattingly in their primes plus Ron Guidry and a ton of really likable players. During those years the Yanks averaged 20-30k fans per game – it really felt like you had the run of the building and we would move around as the game headed into the later innings.

If it was a day game we would head into Manhattan and go to V and T pizza on 110th and Amsterdam and talk to the owner and waiters who had watched the game on TV. Good times.

Trading next year’s Dallas pick would be really dumb. Its unprotected! Sure, Dallas is probably a playoff team but KP is going to miss a few weeks to start the season. They’re one Doncic twisted ankle away from not making the playoffs! The west is going to be tough. Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Rockets w/ Harden, Utah…all pretty much a lock.

Phoenix is on the rise, Minny with Towns and Russell could be a tough team, Memphis with Ja, NO with Zion.

The West is TOUGH and Dallas could easily be a decent team and not make the playoffs. And if Doncic misses a significant chunk of time (not that I’m wishing that but its always a possibility)…they could easily miss the playoffs.

I guess the further out Dallas pick might be more palpatable because Doncic will be in his prime prime by then.

my company had a launch event yesterday. If you’re curious: http://dock.is/onevideo

Yeah, I do not want Westbrook at all. I don’t even know what assets Houston would have that would make it ok.

IF one of the following was GOING to happen, and you get to choose which one, which would you chose? (All of them are in exchange for salary filler, not Knicks assets).

1) Knicks acquire Russell Westbrook (age 32, $41.3; age 33, $44.2; age 34, $47.1).

2) Knicks acquire John Wall (age 30, $41.2; age 31, $44.3; age 32, $47.4) + the #10 pick in this year’s draft + swap rights rights in 2021.

3) Knicks acquire Tobias Harris (age 28, $34.4; age 29, $36.0; age 30, $37.6; age 31, $39.2) + the #21 and the #34 picks in this year’s draft + Philadelphia’s own 2022 minimally protected pick.

4) Knicks acquire Al Horford (age 34, $27.5; age 35, $27.0; age 36, $26.5 ($21.5 guaranteed)) + Josh Richardson (age 27, $10.9; age 28, $11.6) + Zhaire Smith + the #21 pick in this year’s draft + our old 2021 second rounder.

I would prefer Westbrook on the Knicks forever to Trump in the white house until 2024, and I hate Westbrook as a player.

Re the draft there was talk that LaMelo bombed his interviews with teams, but he looks good here, articulate and intense. I’d trade the 8th and an asset for him (not Mitch or RJ).

Of the other PGs only Kira excites me.

1) Knicks acquire Russell Westbrook (age 32, $41.3; age 33, $44.2; age 34, $47.1).

2) Knicks acquire John Wall (age 30, $41.2; age 31, $44.3; age 32, $47.4) + the #10 pick in this year’s draft + swap rights rights in 2021.

3) Knicks acquire Tobias Harris (age 28, $34.4; age 29, $36.0; age 30, $37.6; age 31, $39.2) + the #21 and the #34 picks in this year’s draft + Philadelphia’s own 2022 minimally protected pick.

4) Knicks acquire Al Horford (age 34, $27.5; age 35, $27.0; age 36, $26.5 ($21.5 guaranteed)) + Josh Richardson (age 27, $10.9; age 28, $11.6) + Zhaire Smith + the #21 pick in this year’s draft + our old 2021 second rounder.

Probably Wall because of the pick — there’s also a good chance he will be an accidentank commander, and he’s used to playing for a shit team anyway, unlike Westbrook. I like Zhaire Smith and a #21 but it’s not nearly enough to take on those players. I think you need a top-10 pick to take on the Horford contract.

Trading next year’s Dallas pick would be really dumb. Its unprotected! Sure, Dallas is probably a playoff team but KP is going to miss a few weeks to start the season. They’re one Doncic twisted ankle away from not making the playoffs! The west is going to be tough. Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Rockets w/ Harden, Utah…all pretty much a lock.

Porzingis isn’t the wildcard — he’s basically a slight plus for them. As much as I don’t want a Doncic injury to happen, it would almost certainly land them in the lottery, and that’s when things get interesting.

Unprotected picks shouldn’t be traded unless they’re bringing in a legit superstar (like Giannis or Doncic or Zion right now) while maintaining enough assets to make role player moves, OR adding a 2nd or 3rd superstar to a contending roster.

Remember when the 2017 53-29 Celtics won the draft lottery with Brooklyn’s unprotected pick from the 2013 Pierce/Garnett trade? That’s what a good franchise…

Has it ever happened before that somebody who was so obviously a negative asset demanded a trade?

Are we talking Westbrook? If so, a reminder that just one offseason ago he was traded for like 2 picks and 2 swaps. All firsts, IIRC. I said at the time that Morey had no incentive to not sell the farm for a win-now move, and then move out of Houston and set up shop somewhere else. That’s exactly what happened. Houston is a fucking mess.

With his contract, Westbrook is a negative asset at this point. Problem is, if you insist on acquiring him, he’s going to get all pissy and snarly if the acquiring team signals through the trade terms that it thinks his value is negative. So you have to give away at least some asset to let him save face. Knicks have at least one “face saving” asset — the 27 pick they got from the Clippers.

Acquiring the guy is pointless and stupid; acquiring him in his pissy and snarly form is pointless-er and stupider. Leaves you in a bit of a bind, which is why the right answer is to just sprint away and let him be someone else’s problem.

We are going to be whipsawed like crazy for the next 5 days, so I’m not going to fret about trade proposals until something happens.

I will say this about Westbrook…if he stays reasonably healthy, he’s still one of the most exciting players in the league and would like the Garden on fire. He’s a Jordan-level athlete, so it’s not inconceivable that he will still be a very good player for the next 2 years.

1) Knicks acquire Russell Westbrook (age 32, $41.3; age 33, $44.2; age 34, $47.1).

2) Knicks acquire John Wall (age 30, $41.2; age 31, $44.3; age 32, $47.4) + the #10 pick in this year’s draft + swap rights rights in 2021.

3) Knicks acquire Tobias Harris (age 28, $34.4; age 29, $36.0; age 30, $37.6; age 31, $39.2) + the #21 and the #34 picks in this year’s draft + Philadelphia’s own 2022 minimally protected pick.

4) Knicks acquire Al Horford (age 34, $27.5; age 35, $27.0; age 36, $26.5 ($21.5 guaranteed)) + Josh Richardson (age 27, $10.9; age 28, $11.6) + Zhaire Smith + the #21 pick in this year’s draft + our old 2021 second rounder.

Of these options, I think Harris has the best chance at rehabilitating some trade value. Even if Wall rebounds, it’s hard to see a contender trading for him because he’s so ball dominant. Harris also doesn’t present a playing time issue with any player we currently care about whereas Westbrook and Wall would pose problems for both RJ and any point guard we might draft. Horford has zero chance at rehabilitating trade value and plays the same position as our only good player.

So I’d go with the Harris deal.

This is funny!

RE fandom: long story, but my mother was a life-long Red Sox fan, and my younger sister and one brother (the right wing nut I’ve mentioned on this forum a couple of times) become those, too. However, I and my youngest brother are Mets fans.

The 1986 World Series was interesting, to say the least. My mother was none to happy with what happened in games 6 and 7.

I sure hope these RW rumors are just exaggerated.

one of the tricky things about a bad team giving assets so they can commit to pay a 34 year old russell westbrook $47 million is how fucking stupid it is

one of the tricky things about a bad team giving assets so they can commit to pay a 34 year old russell westbrook $47 million is how fucking stupid it is

I think I may be having a bad influence on you.

From you, I would normally expect some detailed analysis of the salary vs. the win production and where we are in our rebuild. Someone like me would just call them assholes and go back to playing horses for the rest of the afternoon . I’m impressed. You seem to have mastered both approaches. 🙂

ptmilo: one of the tricky things about a bad team giving assets so they can commit to pay a 34 year old russell westbrook $47 million is how fucking stupid it is

Sugar-coating galactically stupid transactions is a big part of what we do here…

Just playing moronic GM’s advocate, maybe the Knicks braintrust is trying to recreate the 2000-01 Sixers…one extremely ball-dominant low-efficiency chucker surrounded by low-usage high-efficiency defensive players…that could work, right? Right??

Guys, Alan Hahn thinks Westbrook might not be a terrible idea and he is better on tv than Wally Sczerbiak despite the fact they look surprisingly similar.

It’s truly knicksy, you have to give the idea it’s due.

It’s more like…

The Knicks under Dolan have always been about winning now. You get three years to produce or do terrible moves in an attempt to win now and then you are gone.

Every new Knicks front office has The Move. You know, the one that frees you from any delusions they might represent a change in the way we do things here. Phil Jackson’s Derrick Rose trade. Steve Mills’ THJ signing. Scott Perry’s whatever the hell happened last offseason.

Even if it’s not the first unwise move they make (Phil Jackson had pretty dumb transactions pre-Rose trade too), it’s The One that seals the deal for you.

Looks like Leon Rose is going to do us the favor of getting it out of the way early.

So the real question is will we trade for Westbrook…:(

I like how Begley is reporting the only reason the Knicks are hesitating is, “The club has some extra first-rounders over the next few seasons and some young players with promise, but wants to retain enough pieces to eventually make a competitive trade offer for another star.”

So, you know, they will trade their picks and young players, but maybe for some other guy.

The lone benefit to having Westbrook in a Knicks uniform is how much the city is going to love him and how being a Knick will make him the biggest fish in town making Durant and Kyrie #2 and #3. Just knowing how much that would piss those two off makes it worth considering.

Betting on Westbrook is a bad bet, but if I were to make ANY sense of it, it’s that the Knicks are looking to put Westbrook in a situation where he recoups some value and you flip him to another contender for a haul. Let’s say our starting five next year looks like this:

Westbrook
Bullock
Barrett
Stretch Four Of Your Choice
Robinson

In this situation you get triple double Russ and you let the “superstars can’t play with Harden” narrative run its course. Maybe Milwaukee gets desperate and flips us something real at the deadline so they can run Westbrook, Giannis, Middleton, and Lopez in the playoffs. Maybe a smaller market team like Orlando wants to push their chips in and offers something real for a “superstar” in Westbrook like Markelle Fultz. If I were the GM of the Knicks, I’m really looking at OKC and Miami did last season and wondering if I could get the Jimmy Butler/Chris Paul effect from Westbrook.

For me, the answer is a hard no. Westbrook isn’t as good as those two to me and I struggle to see how he makes my young guys better players or my city a more desirable location for free agents. You let Michael Jordan trade his life away for Jordan Brand’s premier athlete, and you wait for James Harden to become available just so you can use your assets to jack up the price on whichever Atlantic Division team ends up with him.

Well, I’m hearing buzz that the Clippers want in on the RW sweepstakes. It’ll probably involve Paul George.

I will say though. It doesn’t make a ton of sense.

How many contracts can the knicks absorb? Can they get Wesbrook for just salary filler and still acquire Blake Griffin, or Mike Conley, or Nic Batum, or some other declining contract? If so, there could be an interesting Isiah-like hybrid system at play where NY brings in a lot of over-priced vets while at the same time re-stocking the cupboards. Isiah’s model of using Dolan’s willingness to spend money wasn’t poorly conceived, it was just poorly executed. With shorter max contracts now, it could work out over a 3-4 year period. (But, that’s just a silvery-lining way of looking at what will most likely be 8-10 years of further ineptitude:)

Isiah made The Move with Marbury.

Same guy dropped this bomb, too (he apparently was the first to break the KD/Kyrie to the Nets news):

Warriors and Cavs have held talks on a deal that sends Kevin Love to Golden State.

Draymond Green would be sent to a 3rd team, per league source.

Donnie Walsh:
IF one of the following was GOING to happen, and you get to choose which one, which would you chose? (All of them are in exchange for salary filler, not Knicks assets).

1) Knicks acquire Russell Westbrook (age 32, $41.3; age 33, $44.2; age 34, $47.1).

2) Knicks acquire John Wall (age 30, $41.2; age 31, $44.3; age 32, $47.4) + the #10 pick in this year’s draft + swap rights rights in 2021.

3) Knicks acquire Tobias Harris (age 28, $34.4; age 29, $36.0; age 30, $37.6; age 31, $39.2) + the #21 and the #34 picks in this year’s draft + Philadelphia’s own 2022 minimally protected pick.

4) Knicks acquire Al Horford (age 34, $27.5; age 35, $27.0; age 36, $26.5 ($21.5 guaranteed)) + Josh Richardson (age 27, $10.9; age 28, $11.6) + Zhaire Smith + the #21 pick in this year’s draft + our old 2021 second rounder.

Of those I would take Harris. The contract is horrible and I dont think he will have trade value at any point in the contract. However I like the pick haul and he is a somewhat useful modern player, with a reasonable 3P% that can fit at PF next to Robinson.

I don’t believe will ever be again a useful NBA player, and it can get ugly when everybody realizes that. #10 is nice, but I think not enough

With Westbrook I see delusions of having something akin to 2011 Bulls, and failing miserably. I envision him to have an up year, but after that, it can get ugly.

Horford’s contract is much more palatable, but he is better suited playing C and I don’t think he would be a good PF for us. Not a great fit and not so much in terms of sweeteners, I would rather stay put.

Plus the Isiah plan involved sending out picks. It would be interesting to get a bunch of overpriced aging stars but also getting picks with them so we’re just constantly drafting a couple of first rounders a year.

Something just doesn’t sit right about adding Russell Westbrook when we could be using that cap space to get real assets back. It feels inevitably toxic.

“swiftandabundant
November 13, 2020 at 3:59 pm

the Isiah plan involved sending out picks. It would be interesting to get a bunch of overpriced aging stars but also getting picks with them so we’re just constantly drafting a couple of first rounders a year.”

Isiah actually used Dolan’s willingness to pay luxury tax to bring in a lot of extra picks: the Mardy Collins pick and the David Lee pick (Malik Rose absorption); the Nate Robinson pick (Quentin Richardson absorption); and the Renaldo Balkman pick (Jalen Rose absorption). He was sloppy with outgoing picks (especially protections), but he was highly effective at renting out luxury tax space to keep the cupboards robust.

I suggested to a bay area friend that Love might be worth a shot on the Warriors, but I was thinking more of like swapping Wiggins for Love, not Draymond.

Al Horford a stud ?

“Don’t take the brown acid.”
I repeat:
“Don’t take the brown acid.”

No one wants to play with Russell Westbrook. No one good anyway.

Owen:
No one wants to play with Russell Westbrook. No one good anyway.

So right. Although clips seem to want him at least according to rumors.

Knew Your Nicks:
Like it or not PsychoRuss is still a Big Dog.
Not the Best out there but not also a mercenary crapper like the bunch we got last summer for the same money.
Is he the best way to go ?
Definitely Not.
Is he Disaster personified?
I don’t think so.
If you can get him cheaply without fucking your future you Do it.
Otherwise you practice patience, continue to build your core and wait till a better big dog comes up.

A 1.5 BPM is not a big dog. And none of our mercs are signed for $40M per year for the next 3 years.

mase:

No. The Clippers want to dump Paul George and Clipper management trading for him is not the same as a Free Agent willingly joining Westbrook.

Is the idea to pick Wiseman with the second pick, I guess? So Wiseman at the 5, Love at the 4, Wiggins at the 3, Klay at the 2 and Steph at the 1?

It certainly sounds like it. I like the trade for golden state. I think Draymond might be over the hill and Could also have pissed some people off with his treatment if Durant. They will have a really scary team scoring wise. Their defense could be a worry, but I don’t think it would be horrible.

“Westbrook vs Mercenaries” is like “Heavily used Supercar vs Hyundai spare parts”

As I’ve already written:
“Is he the best way to go ?
Definitely Not.”
and also:
“If you can get him cheaply without fucking your future you Do it.”

Give up assets to get Westbrook would hurt me.
But give up second round draft picks and mercs wouldn’t make me cry.

Westbrook can also be traded.
He is not shit… (yet)

Mercenaries put you in “stand by” mode.
Westbrook changes this status and makes you more competitive as a team.

geo: best of luck KnickerBloggerPowerTankings with the launch…i bet you all have been working like crazy…

did you get a chance to be in the vid? if so, i wanna guess which person you are 🙂

I’m the worst person in the video. Also I want to change my name to KBPowerTankings — seems fitting.

“Westbrook fucks up our future just by having a 3 year/$133 million contract. I wouldn’t absorb him into cap space unless we got picks.”

Is it possible that Westbrook had an “Off” year due to Harden/MDA and returns to Super form again this season on a new team ?
Cause judging by his advanced stats prior to his Houston season he looks like a bad mfkr to me.

Fuck the trade
Let’s say that RW was a FA and wanted 133 for the next 3 years to come to NY.
Would you sign him or not?

He comes with anger and fury from his previous teams!

I’m the worst person in the video. Also I want to change my name to KBPowerTankings — seems fitting.

okay, okay, i’m about to embarrass myself…i’m gonna guess it’s you at the 13 minute mark…i’m sensing a bit of an under the silver lake kind of vibe right there 🙂

I would consider signing him to that contract if we had some semblance of a competitive team. We don’t.

At best he fucks up our draft position and still isn’t worth the contract.

I’d rather shove the ball into RJ Barrett’s hands and hope he takes a step forward. And I don’t particularly believe in RJ Barrett.

Even if he puts up his pre-Houston numbers for 2021, he won’t for the next two years.

It’s a no upside deal. I’m not even sure what the upside is. Is it ruining our draft position for 3 years or him sucking for 3 years? Either way, the answer is no.

I’m not crazy for getting Westbrook too but I won’t raise the black flag if we get him cheaply.
Still an optimist.

get out of here – you were freaking awesome…you were able to pull off both techie and cool at the same time…i wish you the very best of luck with the venture…

i’m sure you’ve been working like crazy…no doubt, lots more work ahead…

thanks for sharing that and making me smile, it definitely made my night…

Given the reality that NBA basketball is a business and not just for the fanciful machinations of a bunch of arm-chair non-stakeholders, the Westbrook trade makes something >zero sense. Like with Carmelo Anthony (and really all the Dolan moves over the past 20 years now), the value of the team will increase, and those financially invested in the team will be happy. The Knicks don’t operate in a VORP vacuum.

Also, for the “do it right” crowd: the prior regime(s) stopped doing the #1 terrible thing, which is trading their first round picks. Bargnani was the dagger of that asinine policy (so, in a way, we are winning the Bargs trade, as it ended an era of blatant recklessness). The knicks have made a top-10 draft pick in every year since Phil Jackson was in the picture with the lone exception of the Bargnani owed pick. That is 5 straight years of what should be a solid rebuild by now. The problem is, they didn’t draft very well, and have little to show for it.

Westbrook isn’t a good move from a strictly basketball standpoint. He will not lead NY to a championship. That is all but guaranteed. However, unlike Anthony, he (likely) won’t deplete the cupboards, and the Knicks could, if it’s done right, cobble together a vaguely interesting quasi-successful team a la 2013. That’s not the WORST scenario. But, yeah, the opportunity cost will always be on everybody’s minds, as some other team with cap space facilitates the Sixers quest for Paul, or the Wizard’s need to relieve themselves of Wall, and that team’s success is tangible around the same time the Knicks are paying 34 year old Russell Westbrook $50,000,000 to be league average on a 36 win team. #knicks.

Is it possible that Westbrook becomes MVPDRose in Thibs’s latest Bulls version ?

I will say this about Russell Westbrook. Never in my life did I think I would see a player not named Oscar or LeBron average a fucking triple-double for 3 straight years. For a 6’3″ 200lb guard to do that is utterly mind-boggling, it can’t even be described. The dude will be shot out of an adrenaline cannon here in MSG, ESPECIALLY against the Nets. He will have Clyde as his mentor on how to take NYC by storm. So if it happens against all of our wishes at a reasonable cost, I will be hanging on to the silver lining that at least RW is pound-for-pound a fucking all-time badass mfer who is gonna leave it all on the court every night, and is gonna wreck some shit up from time to time.

i was trying to find a good comparable…they both hated to lose..which is tough to to find attribute these daze….i think sprewell was younger when we gilot him…but they seem to be pretty comparable…not pure shooters..take the ball to the hole well..etc..not sure what the serious decline comnent is all about…the guy was was all pro..he just choked out his coach…who probably deserved it…

It’s all good pepper…enjoy the fine vino!

Prime Latrell was a very good player, but nowhere near as good as prime Westbrook. If Westbrook is now a Latrell-level player, that would be a serious decline for him. For the record, I think he will be at least a Latrell-level player….but that’s not worth the percentage of the cap he’ll be taking up.

geo: don’t, russ to the knicks is too much a buzzkill…

so, senor pepper (now chucky) – are you a horror genre kind of fan?

not so much…but chucky has a special place in my heart…back in the day..when I was a mischevious type…i was living with a few buddies in a house and one of my friends had a full shock of red hair a al chucky….well.. he was heading down to party in lake havasu with some friends (and likely some underage women) and I cut out of little picture of chucky from the newspaper and pasted it over his picture on his drivers license without him knowing it… of course…he got partied out down in havasu and passed out in his camp site and the police showed up and asked him for his id and unbeknowst to him…he handed it over and the cop gave him (1) a ticket for serving alcohol to minors (the passed out girls at the camp site) and (b) for falsifying his id or some shit….he was so pissed when he got back home..but it was too fucking funny for him to stay angry…that driver license with the chucky face on it was claissic….anyway ….that’s the backstory on my affinity with chucky…but I do like horror…the one that stands out was the original “omen” with lee remick and gregory peck…one of my friends mom took us to see that when we were like 9 or something…totally irresponsible…but that scared the shit out of me…

btw…i am in LA right now heading to Phoenix but one of these days geo…need to get a brew or something when I am passing through here…

Whether we like it or not, next wee Dolan is going to wipe out everything that has been building for years. Westbrook and another player are coming here. It’ll be someone to match up with Durant (at least in Leon’s mind that player matches up). Dolan will prove, once again, why he’s the worst owner in sports. This will be about stealing the headlines from the Nets. Remember that they go into this thinking that any team with a star or two can make the playoffs in the East.

I do think that the Knicks will make a draft move to change position out of 8th. I’m not sure if it’s going to be up to get Wiseman or down to grab another 1st round pick from the Celtics. This may only come to fruition on draft day. If they’re getting Wiseman it’s so that they can trade Robinson. Remember that Mitch didn’t attend the fall camp for personal reasons.

Well, if we get Westbrook at least Mitch will have plenty of opportunities to practice his offensive rebounding. Unless Russ still wants to hog rebounds. In which case, fuck.

I ran that scenario through the ESPN trade machine and it fails. The Knicks need to include about $15M more, which they can by either adding Portis to the trade or a combo of Elfrid Payton and Ellington. I’m not sure how they will work to fill out the roster around him. They would still have some FA flexibility. They’re going to want to pair him with a good off-ball 3&D player. I had hoped to sign someone like Davis Bertan or Danilo Galanari but that cap space goes out the window if Westbrook comes here.

I’m officially on the fence about trading for Westbrook. A player of his talent is enticing, but at the same time..Houston has little to no assets to give us for taking that deal off their hands. Even if they take back Randle. But Westbrook- for all his warts- will jump-start the franchise. And I don’t necessarily love the way he plays, but I can’t deny his talent. On second thought- I lean towards a no on Westbrook. Mostly because Houston can’t offer a decent asset in return for taking his deal. Now..if they move Harden first..I say jump on it. But they probably won’t because it’s damn near impossible to get close to equal value for Harden unless Simmons or Giannis is available.

It’s weird, I hate the idea of Westbrook’s contract, but other than that, if it’s only Randle we give up, I actually think we might be a better team. Neither Randle nor Westbrook can shoot threes, but at least you get assists out of Westbrook. Westbrook would fit better. It still doesn’t make us good. If you have Ntilikina, Westbrook, Barrett, Robinson and (gulp) Dotson or Knox, your defense and scoring might actually be alright. You would basically be playing small ball and hoping Ntilikina gets a bit better at hitting open threes, which should be available if Westbrook is on the floor.

I don’t want to give up a Dallas pick though since it’s actually unprotected and there’s a slight possibility it’s worth a lot

Does it assume that we re-signed the team option players?

I think it doesn’t matter. The rejection message says:

The aggregate outgoing salaries are greater than $6,533,333 Therefore the incoming aggregate salaries must be within $5 million of the aggregate outgoing salaries. The incoming aggregate salaries exceed $5 million in this trade. Cut $15,506,482 from the Knicks incoming trade value to make this trade successful.

I’m not a cap expert but there must be some rule that says “You can’t just dump salary” somewhere.

If we drop all the mercs except Bullock, we can trade Randle & 27 for Westbrook and have a little over $20 million left for free agents. This doesn’t count Pinson & Wooten, or 2 empty roster charges in their absence.

We can likely sign Gallo, Bertans or Wood with that space. Gallo or Bertans are likely the better option because they shoot more threes.

Westbrook
Bullock
RJ
Bertans/Gallo
Mitch

That’s a solid lineup but your backups are likely our crappy rookies at every position and SF is a hole unless RJ steps up. You’re also betting on a bounce back season from Westbrook and Bullock.

I’m way less negative about Gordon Hayward than CP3 or Westbrook.

He’s a good player (at least when healthy), he only has 1 year left on that terrible contract, he’s only 30, and there’s at least some chance he could hang around for a few years after that and be productive at a more reasonable salary. It would kind of suck to help the Celtics, but the Celtics are on a different planet than us now anyway. I’m not sure what kind of deal makes sense.

I would feel the similarly about this as I would abut signing Gallo for 2-3 years at the right price. I prefer younger, but beggars can’t be choosers and I don’t think there’s much downside to moving forward long term.

One rumor is Westbrook and a longer term deal for Hayward.

Bruno Almeida: I don’t even hate Westbrook, he can be fun to watch when he’s tuned in, but if we have a front office that believes he’s worth it in that contract… I guess the next 3 or so years are lost as well.

Yeah, this is the dilemma. It can’t possibly be argued that taking on Westbrook, even with marginal sweetener coming our way, bodes well for this FO’s subsequent moves. I don’t think it’s quite as ill-advised as signing Amare or trading the farm for Melo or re-signing Melo, but it’s just not prudent. The problem is, hiring Thibs all but shut the door on a patient rebuild. Thibs is gonna want to make the playoffs in year one and he probably sees Westbrook as his Derrrick Rose, Mitch as Noah, RJ as Butler, etc.

If it happens, I don’t think it “dooms” the franchise to another decade of mediocrity in and of itself. This is a 5-year plan no matter what and Westbrook would be a 3-year stop-gap. And if you put the right low-cost supporting cast of young players around him, draft well, and make prudent moves with the rest of our cap space, it might not be so bad at the end of year 3.

If we do GNYGNYG’s deal, the media would absolutely explode.

If we did that trade I’d be checking out for like three years. Hayward’s a good player but he’s always injured and expiring. We’d be giving up assets to fill our cap sheet and win 35 games. If this happens you might as well just cancel Knicks basketball for the duration of Rose’s tenure

Yes. If you go in on Westbrook and a PF this year, you don’t have an opportunity to add a second star. You have some money in the 2021 offseason if you let Frank, DSJr, and Bullock walk, but you still can’t sign a max player.

The NBA isn’t like baseball. Draft position in baseball is meaningless and there’s no salary cap. You can’t do in the NBA what you can do in MLB.

Again, Westbrook is a bad play.

Houston wants to trade Westbrook so they can have cap space and rebuild- likely on the fly. I’m not taking him in a deal without an asset attached. If they trade Harden for a player plus assets, then I can imagine whatever asset they send in a Westbrook deal would be better than what they have now. With Stephen Silas as a new coach, they have to be thinking rebuild, right? If so, then I hope they don’t ask for a good pick from us to take on Westbrook. If push comes to shove, they can have one of the Dallas picks..but definitely not any of this year’s picks.

I’m still holding out for an asset to save a team money though. But Westbrook in the Garden would be exciting though. If we can’t get CP3 and a pick from OKC, then press the hell outta Utah for Conley. They wanna save money, but trading Randle for Conley doesn’t save them a ton. We may not get a great asset out of them either.

What I really think Houston should do is offer up Westbrook for Paul George and retool with Harden.

what if we locked up rwb and hayward for their 30s and hope giannis decides to join for the vet min bc he is dying to play with a big dog who also needs the ball and also can’t shoot. then we can sign kendall jenner to the mid level bc basketball is a business fyi. we could get alan on board to rally his vorporate drones by marketing the package as wo!men of a certain age, thank you steve stout.

Let me be clear, I’m not advocating anything. I’m assuming that the desires of KB posters for a real rebuild are not what MSG would even consider. Dolan is not going to be patient. Without “names” he can’t sell tickets and I’m pretty sure that wants to steal back the spotlight from the Nets with Durant and Kyrie. What WE want is never happening. I’m just trying to extrapolate what could be going through Rose and Thibs heads as we approach draft day.

Also, even though the NBA isn’t like MLB in terms of cap, the Yankees looked like they were in saddled in 2016 with aging vets and they turned things around while shedding salaries. Assuming he picks up the player option, Hayward is a UFA after 2020/21. It’s an expiring contract. That opens the door for the Knicks to be players in next year’s (much better) FA class. As long as the Knicks don’t give up future picks, there are paths to sensible rebuilds while carrying salaries.

I think the Hayward rumor was essentially that he would “opt out” of the last year of his ridiculous current contract for a longer term deal. I’m not sure what the amount or number of years would be, but if you think he has 4 more productive years he can be a good piece on a team that’s simultaneously developing Robinson, RJ, Frank, Knox, and whoever else we draft and add over the next few years.

There would also be cap room to add another starter.

Then you put yourself into the position of having a pretty good team, with a TON of upside, and the ability to move on in 3-4 years as those vets are gone and your younger pieces are moving into their primes. I think the whole idea would be to try to add 2 good players this year so we are actually competitive, get the kids some playoff experience, and put ourselves in a position to attract a top player in a trade at a later date.

I simply reject CP3 and Westbrook. CP3 is older and at the end of is career. Westbrook is older, declining, and I don’t like his game.

I’d way rather find two younger pieces than Hayward, but let’s say we added Gallo at PF and Hayward at SF to go along with Robinson at C and RJ at SG and Frank at PG. That’s a pretty good start to a nice team for the next few years that’s got key players that are going to get a lot better every year, especially if we do add a PG in the draft and he looks promising. I could think of worse scenarios. Gallo and Hayward can both make plays and help in that area if Frank stays and plays for his defense.

What tickets?

This is what gets me. The upcoming NBA seasons is going to be condensed and without fans for at least half of the regular season. If there was a year to just draft, develop and let the kids play with a few vets to babysit, this would be the year. Just one more year of developing could set us up so nicely for next year.

I’ll root for Westbrook and if we get him for nothing I guess it’s ok but damn, just hold out one more year.

Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
Z-Man,

Sorry, I was unclear–we’d be doing a trade where we swap picks (which are categorically worse, especially if any of Hayes, Hali, or Okongwu are available at 8, which they’re likely to be) for the privilege of filling up our cap sheet for a 36 win season. It doesn’t seem like you’re defending the idea, so this isn’t directed at you, but since we’re on the subject: I just don’t see how this could be good in literally any respect (other than for business) unless Russ defies his three year trend-line of declining play for the rest of his contract.Or how it wouldn’t be an obvious signal that the franchise is doomed to another 5 years of shitty play, coaching, and management. I’m praying we get to draft night with no shenanigans/some team drives up the asking price for Russ.

I personally think that there is very little difference in this draft between #8 and #14…and almost zero difference between #27 and #30. That said, the idea of filling our cap space with Russ and Hayward makes little sense even if we got #14 and didn’t give up anything. It’s just a bad idea. But not the worst idea ever by any means, i.e. something that should make you check out for the next 3 years in and of itself.

what if we locked up rwb and hayward for their 30s and hope giannis decides to join for the vet min bc he is dying to play with a big dog who also needs the ball and also can’t shoot. then we can sign kendall jenner to the mid level bc basketball is a business fyi. we could get alan on board to rally his vorporate drones by marketing the package as wo!men of a certain age, thank you steve stout.

We can call that season Real Housewives of Used to Drive to the Rim but Now, Aged and Post-Injury, Settle for Contested Pull-up Elbow Jumpers which Are Missed at an Alarming Rate but the Confidence Inspires Confidence and That’s How You Build a Contender County

swiftandabundant:
What tickets?

This is what gets me. The upcoming NBA seasons is going to be condensed and without fans for at least half of the regular season. If there was a year to just draft, develop and let the kids play with a few vets to babysit, this would be the year. Just one more year of developing could set us up so nicely for next year.

I should have gone into that more.
When the season starts it’ll be remote but now you’re talking about TV revenue. If you’re an advertiser are you paying big bucks for Mitch, RJ, etc. or Durant and Irving?
The season is going to roll into April and by then there should be vaccines and people going to games. Then there’s the playoffs. Tell me that you don’t think Dolan has visions of a packed MSG in May.

Dolan already ate all the insane root.

#Anybody who wants to sign up to watch a decline phase Russell Westbrook play increasingly inefficient heroball for the next three seasons whilst eating up $40M+ of salary cap is really just completely insane.#

Sign Me up!
Can’t afford booing/abandoning the Knicks for the next 3years.
I’m a nykjunky.
And ready to cross my fingers and… #trust# our “process?!”

Keeping our draft picks and also avoiding trading Mitch/RJ firstly and Knox/Frank secondarily (per reports) is a sign of clarity (probably!).

#dreambabydream#

What are your thoughts?

WHERE ARE THE RUFF RYDAHS

***Anybody who wants to sign up to watch a decline phase Russell Westbrook play increasingly inefficient heroball for the next three seasons whilst eating up $40M of salary cap is really just completely insane. I don’t know of any other way to put it.***

Yeah, I mean the next two years are throw away years and if ownership wants Westbrook to stimulate ratings and revenue, that’s understandable. But by 2022-2023, the Knicks COULD, theoretically, be out of the doldrums, but by that time the Westbrook contract will have risen to $47,000,000 while the cap could still potentially be shrinking. 34 year old Westbrook taking up 45%-50% of the cap would be hard to work around, but the good news is that there is no rising star on the current roster that they are going to have to max anytime soon. The Knicks probably aren’t winning many playoff games between now and 2023 with or without Westbrook, so, unlike with Melo, Bargnani, Eddy Curry, Marbury, Francis, Randolph, Jeffries, Amar’e, and Crawford, a Westbrook Era at MSG may not have many glaring long-term implications.

i’m pretty sure a bunch of people in the media have jobs solely because they troll knicks fans into doom clicking whatever obscene trade rumor pops up at the time…. it’s a cottage industry at this point….

It’s depressing if the Knicks get Westbrook. I agree it’s more of the same old Knicks except maybe they won’t be throwing away picks

Tobias’s contract deserves a place in the MoMA.

If our FO “Realize” that by getting Westbrook or Paul or Harris or Horford or any other huge contract gives the opportunity to the other team to reform and to have a good chance to sign Giannis and other FA then they should get assets for any of these contracts. Even for RW’s one.
While also upgrading the team.

Ugh. Is the trade moratorium lifted tomorrow or Monday? Hopefully, this is all just loose talk. At this point, I only want to see trades that send draft capital back. Anything else is probably foolish.

i am in LA right now heading to Phoenix but one of these days geo…need to get a brew or something when I am passing through here…

that’ll work man, i know a virus friendly spot or two along the 10 here in the “inland empire” which’ll still serve ya a beer…coming from the empire state, always though it ironic i’m here now in the inland empire, way overcrowded dust bowl that it is 🙂

That Nets “bench” is the bench this year, but last year they were starters that made the playoffs. If you add Westbrook to them, it’s probably a good team.

That Nets “bench” is the bench this year, but last year they were starters that made the playoffs. If you add Westbrook to them, it’s probably a good team.

They’d probably be a 39-win team in the Western Conference. It’d be absolutely bizarre.

But it won’t make them better, so trading one of the best players in the NBA to get worse but not so bad that they would get a good draft pick (or even a bunch of young, cheap players) is befuddling. If they want to be a decent team, they could just keep Harden and Westbrook, and they’d at least be a playoff team the next couple of seasons.

You don’t trade Harden for role players/future mercenaries.
Unless he demands it.
Or unless a career ending injury is lurking.
Or unless you’re stupid.

Harden is always a click away from contending on a tough WConference.
Allen , Levert and co are ordinary players you find everywhere. Even the Knicks have Allens and Leverts.
Harden is rare. You keep him. Or trade him for an army of assets.

Yeah, Allen and LeVert are more than fine if they came with good picks. But the Nets don’t have good picks to trade, so that’s why I think it’s such a bad idea.

LeVert makes $16 million and Dinwiddie makes $11 million and can be a free agent after this season. This isn’t like you’re trading for a bunch of cheap, young players.

I’m sorry, I am still trying to imagine a backcourt of Harden and Irving. That’s either the most frightening thing to face since Medusa or the most hysterically funny thing to watch self-destruct.

If the Nets don’t have picks to trade, and their tradeable players will be free agents in a year, then I agree, I don’t know why Houston would do that trade.

The fascinating thing to me is that I think you would have to make a likely top ten pick in 2021 the centerpiece of any theoretical Harden trade (that plus players, of course) and that just highlights the issues with the Nets offer as I don’t think you could get a likely top ten pick in 2021 in return for any of the Nets’ bench guys. I like LeVert, but no one is giving up a top ten pick in 2021 for him, ya know?

And maybe that’s how the Nets deal becomes feasible? Because no one else is willing to part with a top ten pick in 2021, so this is the best they can get? It’s all quite weird.

Durant (assuming 90% recovery) Irving and Harden is a finals-level core. That would be a coup for the Nets. With Harden they don’t need Levert and could pick up a replacement for Allen on the cheap.

You would think that the Warriors would make a pitch for Harden, with two high firsts two years in a row in their pocket.

And to be fair, even if we had his the Zion/Morant sweepstakes, we’d be more likely to still have Mills around…

So uh can someone who is anti-asset accumulation explain to me how we’re going to compete with OKC going forward, who is both presently better than us and has, like, 40% of total NBA draft picks until 2026?

Wow. The league just dropped that teams can actually sign a player in free agency this year and trade him BEFORE the season starts.

The tweets I’ve seen are a bit vague about whether they’re dropping that 3-month trade moratorium or not, but if they are, then, yes, Brock Aller better be screaming at Leon Rose to leave our cap space open to execute lots of sign-and-trades to assist capped-out teams.

One option would be to orchestrate a sign-and-trade with, say, VanVleet, with the understanding that he would then be traded to Golden State for LaMelo (I’m not in favor of this, per se, just saying that the FO has, like, four days to compute all of these scenarios now if this is true, which is nuts.)

Hayward on a reasonable deal (3 years, $70 mill or less) might be an interesting move.

Adrian Wojnarowski@wojespn
·
Schroder-to-the-Lakers is well on course to be completed on Monday, sources tell ESPN. Rival teams in pursuit of the OKC guard have started moving onto new targets. The Lakers will land an impactful, versatile guard in pursuit of the franchise’s title defense.

Looks like the deal is for #28 and Danny Green, so far.

Shroder would have been interesting for NY. I was never a fan of his, but he seems to have matured into a better player now.

It wouldn’t quite be The Move, but if Rose traded a late first and another asset for the privilege of watching Dennis Schroeder regress for one year you could pretty safely check out for a while.

I wonder what kind of genius marketing campaign Stout will come up with if the Knicks acquire Westbrook? Probably lots of promos of W in a Knicks uniform, squinting and scowling at the camera…

He could also borrow a line from BVW: Westbrook holds a basketball out in front of him, scowls at the camera and says, “come get us…”

I doubt Jared Harper amounts to much, but we won’t be quite as limited with him and Wooten as we’ve been with two way guys in the past:

There is no 45-day limit for two-way contracts this season. Those players can’t be active for more than 50 games and will be paid a flat $449,155, but no 45-day counting clock this season.

I wonder if OKC could make a godfather play for Harden with their current assets? Would be kind of hilarious if they traded Paul and a bunch of picks for Harden. The OKC supporting cast is probably better than Houston’s at this point anyway.

Donnie Walsh:
***27 is better than 28, but then it boiled down to either Portis or Randle heading to OKC. That might have been the deal breaker on a trade.***

Lakers are over the cap, but couldn’t NY have just absorbed Schröder and not sent any salary back (if they’d wanted to).

Forgot about that. Perhaps there is more to the deal that hasn’t been fleshed out yet.

Z-man:
You mean young players can get better?

Everyone except young Knicks players and especially not Frank. 🙂

So much for the idea of being able to sign and immediately trade outside free agents:

Free agents signed this offseason cannot be traded any earlier than Feb 6; Those who are-resigned via Early or Full Bird have to wait until March 3 to be traded

Alan: This could refer to so many past and present Knicks, Jowles…

rotflmao

Including quite a few of Perry’s former lottery pick free agent signings. 🙂

I cannot wait until I never have to hear about that godawful lottery bust scrub loser again

It wasn’t quite Ntilikina-level, but we spilled a lot of virtual ink on here about CSKA Moscow end-of-bench player Ron Baker.

When Frank goes overseas there’s gonna be strong “doomsday cult leader whose rapture date has come and gone” vibes from some posters.

It wasn’t quite Ntilikina-level, but we spilled a lot of virtual ink on here about CSKA Moscow end-of-bench player Ron Baker.

Ron Baker might be an upgrade over some of the players the Knicks have had over the last few years. At least with Baker you got “half” a decent player. He wasn’t a 5m dollar a year player or one worthy of a player option, but hopefully we are finally beyond that level of incompetence.

Being an upgrade over Knox =/= being a useful player, unfortunately. I’m still annoyed we picked him. I guess that immortal 3 on 3 performance will live on forever in Steve Mills’ heart, though.

The mocking days of the Knicks young talents would be over soon under Thibs.
Enjoy them while they last!
Nba watch out!
The Knicks are coming!

*since you mentioned WHerzog I’d like to recommend to anyone interested a band that used to put music in a few of his movies named:
Popol Vuh
They’re Life Changing material.
Try them. Not only the Herzog ones.
Aguirre Ost is a great start.

Does coaching really matter in the nyk?
Looks about the right time to find that out.

I really fluctuate between reserved optimism and outright disdain of Leon Rose based solely on whichever rumor I’ve heard most recently.

This seems unhealthy.

Right now, I’m leaning towards inducing a coma for a month, so I don’t have to witness any slo-mo train wrecks and can wake up right before next season starts.

8M for 3p specialist WEllington?
That’s a steal

8M for 3p specialist WEllington?
That’s a steal

You should be able to get a first for him at any time!

The twitter thread says the Trade window opens at noon on Monday. That’s 1am here. I guess I’ll wake up to news Tuesday morning here. In terms of who to guarantee, maybe we could have a poll who each of us would choose to guarantee? That’s assuming no trades, of course, which could easily change things.

Early Bird:
I don’t know if it actually works, but in theory the Knicks could trade their partial guarantees for fully guaranteed players and assets, allowing other teams to waive mercs and save money/open cap space.

I think they will use them to swing trades for big contracts that other teams want to shed.

Don’t they have to draft him first?

Fair enough.

I kinda assume he’ll be gone by that point anyways.

“We’ll draft you if you make it to pick X” is a common enough thing. I believe the Lakers actually told Mitch that and then reneged on it.

Agreed, Z-Man. I think it’s going to be Westbrook because of the “discount price.”

So that will be three non-shooters in the starting lineup.

I’m picturing lots of 5-28 nights from Russ. But at least he’ll feed Toppin a few sweet dunks each game.

did this really happen in minnesota?

nope it did not

There was clearly a “personality” and “work ethic” problem in Minnesota. That’s what lead to Butler wanting out. But since Butler continued to heap all kinds of praise on Thibs after he left, that means Butler thought the problem was Towns, Wiggins and some of the other young players. In those kinds of conflicts, you don’t trade Towns. You hope he eventually matures into a player that understands he has to give 100% on both sides.

Also, despite some bad salary moves, the team was a LOT better with Thibs.

Fortunately, he’s not the GM in NY. He’s the coach. And hopefully, this time around, he’ll have players willing to work hard on both sides of the floor. If he doesn’t, the coach won’t matter.

The really annoying thing about Westbrook is that Elfrid is the same type of player (with a conscience) for way, way less money!

But I’m not going to judge the FO until something officially happens.

The MSG marketing department does NOT see Westbrook and Elfrid Payton as similar, I will tell you that. (And the marketing department is in the room where it happens).

Bo Nateman:
I guess this won’t be the ” Winter of our Discontent” ( apologies to @Clash Fan, I will stay in my lane going forward)
On a positive note, we finally get to end our speculation about Rose and Company.

Love it! I taught that soliloquy for years to AP 12th graders. Richard comes on stage and basically says, “I’m a bad guy, and I’m going to F*** with everyone.” Then proceeds to do so.

Sort of like a James Dolan personal manifesto.

Still hoping the Knicks pass on Westbrook.

The fetishization of role players has no greater example than those 2018-19 Nets. 42-40 with a negative BPM, getting trounced in the first round of the playoffs, and somehow convincing half the league’s fans that they could be a contender at some point.

BPM

LeVert 0.2
Dinwiddie 0.6
Allen 1.6

That’s a quite a haul for a guy who’s ranked 4th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 1st in VORP over his Rockets tenure and will likely claim a spot in the top 15 players of all-time by career’s end. And as tsam says, they’re all going to be on vet’s multi-year contracts, which are almost always overpays.

Nets might win the East if they get Harden. They’ll be a shitshow on defense, but also score 130 a night even if Durant comes back giving 60% of his peak VORP (which is probably what should be expected, with load management and regular-season coasting factored in).

Westbrook had 69 dunks in his career-high season, 2015-16, in 2750 minutes. Payton has 76 in his career, over 11,350 minutes. They’re not remotely close in play style, even with Westbrook getting to the rim a little less than his peak. Production, maybe, but not play style.

The final major mock drafts are out, with no consensus on who we’re taking. Wasserman went with Vassell, while claiming we’re looking hardest at him, Okoro, and Lewis. Givony went with Halliburton, even though multiple beat writers (Berman and Popper) have said the Knicks aren’t very high on him. Vecenie went with Okoro, but admits New York is the only team in the top 10 where he doesn’t really have any read.

Tight lips are good, especially compared to some past administrations, or some other local executives like Dave Gettleman who telegraph their every move. But it means we’re still in the dark about who they’re most interested in if they stay at 8.

I think the problem for Houston right now is that its just a tight market to trade a big star like Harden. He’s obviously still at his peak and probably a top 3 player in the league, but this season is so weird with Covid.

The contenders who would want him can only offer last first rounders and a lot of them have traded away those picks all ready to get to their contender status.

The non contenders maybe aren’t looking to make a big move like that right now because of this weird season.

So I just think right now its the worst possible time to move someone like Harden. Normally you’d probably have teams clamoring to get him. But it just feels like right now teams aren’t willing to give up a king’s ransom for a superstar like Harden.

So maybe Houston thinks…well a bunch of role players at least those can be flipped later one by one for individual picks.

According to Berman, no option exercise on Payton, no plan for DSJ other than trying to trade him, Frank isn’t a starting PG but a valuable piece of the puzzle nonetheless is exactly right. Good start for the FO on this front.

That’s a quite a haul for a guy who’s ranked 4th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 1st in VORP over his Rockets tenure and will likely claim a spot in the top 15 players of all-time by career’s end. And as tsam says, they’re all going to be on vet’s multi-year contracts, which are almost always overpays.

I don’t think anyone thinks it’s smart to trade very good role players for stars. The question is whether Westbrook is actually still a star that’s at least close to his MVP level play after all the surgeries and some indication recently that his decline may be started. Then on top of that, you have to figure out a trade that makes any sense and leaves you with a competitive team after you take on that gigantic salary. The possibilities are very thin. Almost nothing makes sense other than a team willing to take him into cap space for marketing purposes “on the cheap” asset wise. That doesn’t really make sense for Houston or Westbrook, but they may not have many choices.

well…. now that I think about it, the Nets COULD have the best offer — if they traded Kyrie.
That would be freaking hilarious.

I obviously just meant Russ is the same TYPE of player as Elfrid (triple-double threat point guard that can’t shoot) and not worth the extra $33 mil a year when we should be positioning ourselves for a good 2021 pick (I knew when I typed that on the shitter that I would get immediate shit for it — pun intended.)

I don’t think there are enough balls in Brooklyn for Kyrie, Durant, and Harden, but it could be an interesting experiment for a few years.

Re: the draft, I’ve seen a few mocks that have us taking Okoro, who has supposedly learned how to shoot (according to him). If that’s true, I’m okay with that pick. I like him and Vassell, which is who the FO supposedly likes the most, but a Toppin slide could ruin all of that.

E: According to Berman, no option exercise on Payton, no plan for DSJ other than trying to trade him, Frank isn’t a starting PG but a valuable piece of the puzzle nonetheless is exactly right. Good start for the FO on this front.
  

If they are going to draft a PG they think is ready to be handed the keys, trade for a better one, or sign a better one in free agency, allowing Patyon to walk makes sense.

I haven’t totally given up on DSJr eventually putting it all together and using all that talent to turn into a good player, but he’s not my cup of tea. If they move him for an asset/player I like better, I’m fine with that.

That they understand Frank’s potential value on a team that already has it’s #1 and #2 option is the best news I’ve heard about this management/coaching staff to date.

I hope this is all true.

This Harden to Brooklyn stuff is laughable. There is no way Danny Ainge and Darryl Morey let that one happen.

AD opting out. What does that mean?

AD opting out. What does that mean?

Just that he wants to sign a new contract with LA now, rather than waiting a year. He’s not going anywhere.

For the record, I do kinda wish we outbid the Nets for Bruce Brown. I’m also hopelessly biased as right now he’s one of the best players my alma mater has ever produced. Regardless, bizarre move by the Pistons to virtually give away an interesting young player. He’s another player in the “if Frank Ntilikina fan fiction was true” category.

I would think Boston could put together a solid package of picks for Harden and solidify themselves as true contenders. Or at least outbid that Nets package.

Idk about the Bucks propensity to spend but Harden + Giannis + nothing at all = championship. They’ve got to have something better than the Nets package.

I’ll stop there, but that Nets package sucks.

Philly could send Ben Simmons, although it’s possible that Fertitta won’t agree to any trade with Morey. But basically there are way better packages out there.

owen the best way is prob to turn twitter notifications on temporarily and then specifically for woj, shams, stein and maybe chris haynes, begley and berman. the refresh spiral is a young man’s game.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: I was talking about Harden.

I am a moron, but you already knew that. lol

This is what happens when your girlfriend is screaming that we have a grocery delivery sitting outside that needs to be brought it and washed and your trying to ignore her and talk about the Knicks.

CP3 to Phoenix per Woj and Shams:

Shams: OKC has traded Chris Paul to Phoenix for Ricky Rubio, Kelly Oubre, Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque and draft compensation, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA

Now is the time to tremble–Russ is the only PG with a giant contract left unaccounted for.

Edit: Draft compensation is a 2022 first. Lmao OKC has a war chest.

another first for okc

rubio, oubre plus some picks for cp3…

seems kind of cheap…. depending on what the picks turn out to be…. could be multiple lottery picks depending on how this team turns out….

Well the larger point is that we were not getting CP3 w/o giving up assets, much less getting sweetener.

PHX is going to be very fun to watch!

Phoenix chasin’ that 5th seed…

See how dumb that looks when other teams do it?

So much respect for OKC. They got two picks for taking Paul on and got another one when they traded him. And in between they were an awesome fun team to watch.

Yeah, other than the Harden trade, which was in part forced on him by ownership (but still a very poor return), Presti seems very good at what he does.

Now I just need the Hornets to acquire Westbrook and I’ll feel much better about everything.

Much prefer CP3 to Westbrook, but that return is way too rich for my blood or, really, the blood of anyone with a functioning brain.

I wouldn’t mind swinging something for Rubio to be our stop gap PG and organize the youngsters. His 3 pt shot has improved. Wonder if OKC is game. Thoughts?

I feel like no one ever asks, what if OKC had traded Westbrook rather than Harden?

Those guys probably would have bust out of town at some point anyway but it seems an interesting counterfactual.

New poll question:

Would you trade the #8 pick to OKC for #25 pick + 2022 Suns pick + 2023 Clippers pick + 2024 Houston pick?

I’d do the 27 for Rubio, especially because it would end the Westbrook nonsense too.

Would you trade the #8 pick to OKC for #25 pick + 2022 Suns pick + 2023 Clippers pick + 2024 Houston pick?

if the #8 pick was used on hayes or kira lewis then no… otherwise… yes

Maybe I’m overanalyzing the tea leaves but given how quickly this trade was finalized at a relatively fair price (i.e. it’s not like Phoenix did something super exorbitant just to lock it up immediately) it sure seems like we were never bidding that seriously on CP3. My expectation is that if OKC had multiple teams prepared to give up a 1st rounder they might’ve dragged this out and get a little bit of a bidding war going. I’m cautiously hopeful that’s a good sign about our willingness to do anything for Westbrook.

I’m interested to see what Phoenix does with the rest of their free agency space. That team could be really fun and intriguing if CP3 ages gracefully over the next couple years.

Z:
New poll question:

Would you trade the #8 pick to OKC for #25 pick + 2022 Suns pick + 2023 Clippers pick + 2024 Houston pick?

Is the Houston pick unprotected? If so yes. I don’t like this draft and Houston is very visibly going down the drain under this ownership. Morey, MDA, Harden and Westbrook in the span of like 90 days? I can’t even remember anything as devastating. Would not want to be a Rockets fan right now.

Given that KD wants to play with Harden right now apparently, I suspect they got along fine in their Thunder days. Westbrook was always the fly in the ointment.

Iverson is a great comp for Westbrook. Maybe DRose in his Chicago prime. There is a way to make it work with him but you need a very circumscribed kind of team, you need him to stay healthy, and you have to accept that you probably won’t be a contender.

Owen:

Iverson is a great comp for Westbrook. Maybe DRose in his Chicago prime. There is a way to make it work with him but you need a very circumscribed kind of team, you need him to stay healthy, and you have to accept that you probably won’t be a contender.

I think Westbrook retards the process of building a true contender, but the minute they signed Thibs, the notion of a patient rebuild went out the window. If you get 2 years of 90% prime Westbrook, that will certainly push us out of the lottery, especially with the expanded playoff scenario. That’s what Thibs wants, and probably what Rose wants too. If it’s a relatively neutral deal (Randle, someone not named RJ or Mitch, a non-lottery pick in either this draft or any draft other than next year) then there are ways to use him as a placeholder. He’d take some pressure off the younger guys and might help them develop by being the Melo-like lightning rod. We would still have draft picks, young players and enough cap space to add another quality starter. (Bertans? Harris? Gallo?)

***Maybe I’m overanalyzing the tea leaves but given how quickly this trade was finalized at a relatively fair price (i.e. it’s not like Phoenix did something super exorbitant just to lock it up immediately) it sure seems like we were never bidding that seriously on CP3.***

I think that if Paul had said (inexplicably) that he’d like to go to NY, the Knicks would have matched that offer. But Presti has accumulated all those picks WHILE putting his players where they want to be. Phoenix was really, really good in the bubble, has a lot of young upside, Phoenix itself is a rapidly growing city in the sunbelt, and is very close to LA where Paul lives. So we can’t say that we learned anything about Leon Rose as a GM from this trade.

djphan: the problem is that 90% prime westbrook is long gone…. he was probably 40-60% last year and the year before…

I don’t agree with that…last year is hard to judge because he played along the biggest ball-stopper in the league besides himself in a system that did not fit his game. The year before that he averaged a triple-double and shot a career low from the line, depressing his TS%. There is no reason to think that he’s in serious decline…he’s 32, not 36.

it’s ok to give him a mulligan for this past year but there’s 3 declining years before that also…. how do you explain that?

Berman suggests that… Scott Perry saved us?

The Knicks’ rookie president had a pipe dream of trading for his favorite client when he ran the Creative Artists Agency, but in the end he did not heavily pursue the 35-year-old point guard by offering a trove of future assets.

The Post had reported OKC was most enamored with the Knicks’ 2018 lottery pick, Kevin Knox. Rose thought Paul could be the consummate leader that would’ve helped reinforce Tom Thibodeau’s new culture.

However, The Post has learned Knicks GM Scott Perry had misgivings about adding a 35-year-old point guard considering where the franchise was.

But, he adds:

The Knicks are still trying to solve their point-guard puzzle and will monitor the Russell Westbrook Sweepstakes as the Rockets figure out their new direction.

The Knicks believe they have leverage because most teams don’t have the cap space to absorb the three years left on Westbrook’s contract. Westbrook is 32 – three years younger than Paul.

i feel kinda relieved we didn’t trade for chris paul, because the price phoenix paid was way too high for us. but i’m also kinda afraid that in a week i’m going to wish we had traded for chris paul bc we paid an even higher price for Russell Westbrook.

seriously, how is giving something up for westbrook even a consideration? that guy should come with 3 first round picks to acquire his contract.

Speaking of Rubio, are there any rules regarding how fast he can be traded again?

I think Presti has been handling this well, but I also think that he’s unfairly getting credit for Chris Paul turning his career around. Chris Paul being dumped on Presti as a negative asset and then being traded as a positive asset has all to do with Chris Paul becoming an All Star again, not some Sam Presti GM wizardry.

That’s a reasonable position.

Would you agree that it makes Morey look bad because he gave up on a guy that still had something left in the tank prematurely and took on an even worse contract all while paying a price for the privilege of doing it?

He basically left the Rockets in a really tough spot because they have two older stars that realize the team has to rebuild. They don’t have the time to wait at their age, especially when the cupboard is bare and they don’t have the assets to turn it around.

Morey was desperate when he made the Westbrook trade, because no one can stand to play with Harden anymore. He still gave up too much, but it’s a challenge to build around Harden.

KD and Kyrie are ok with Harden because it’s only theoretical now. They won’t be when they’re actually playing with him.

Deeefense:

Would you agree that it makes Morey look bad because hegave up on a guy that still had something left in the tank prematurely and took on an even worse contract all while paying a price for the privilege of doing it?

Given that everyone is trying to move as fast and far from Fertitta’s Rockets as possible, I would consider the trade as Morey’s last ditch effort to win a title before leaving the sinking ship, with no regards whatsoever for the future.

why can’t we just use our three draft picks and add some disposable veterans to fill the gaps? This is going to be the most insignificant, least watched NBA season of all time. it is literally the worst time to make a splash.

Donnie Walsh has to own the Tracy McGrady and Carmelo Anthony deals. We can’t give Darryl Morey a pass for the Westbrook trade.

If the Warriors and Suns both make the playoffs and OKC doesn’t, one more Western team that made it last year won’t make it again.

It’ll proooooooobably be Portland…but we just might get a lottery pick for Bargnani With Blocks.

Ehh with the way the schedule is set up, Dallas is going to feast off of weaker teams in their division like Houston and San Antonio while a team like PHX (who I firmly believe to be better than Dallas right now) has to play LAC, LAL, and GSW a lot more than they would in a normal year.

Pencil in Dallas for the 7th seed again.

Brian Cronin:
I think Presti has been handling this well, but I also think that he’s unfairly getting credit for Chris Paul turning his career around. Chris Paul being dumped on Prssti as a negative asset and then being traded as a positive asset has all to do with Chris Paul becoming an All Star again, not some Sam Presti GM wizardry.

Same thing with Schroder turning his game around and becoming an actual asset.

This is a weird take to me. Obviously some chunk of it is outside of his control – that’s true of everything done by every GM – but correctly identifying guys who are currently undervalued and have a good chance of being worth more later is exactly what he’s supposed to do. Giving him credit for doing a great job of it isn’t unfair.

Also just saying, but, CP3 didn’t really “turn his career around”. He had a slightly down year that last year in Houston because he was never really healthy, but he wasn’t exactly terrible. He had a 3.9 BPM in 58 games, and then turned his career around to the tune of 4.4 BPM in 70 games (granted a COVID shortened season). The trade had a lot more to do with Harden and CP3 not getting along anymore and a lack of belief in CP3 staying healthy than a real decline in his level of play.

We’ll see what happens with the Rockets, but assuming they don’t trade Harden (big assumption) we can still pencil them in for 48-52 wins at least.

The rest of that division? San Antonio, which will probably be at least ok.
Pelicans will probably be in the 35-40 win place with a full year of Zion + SVG.
Memphis will be better and may push for the playoffs

It’s not a great conference but there are zero pushovers, like, say, the Knicks, Wizards, Hornets, Cavs, Pistons, etc.

Dallas isn’t only going to be down KP, but also I doubt Dwight Powell is going to play much to start the season too — he of the Ws/48 of ~0.200, TS 67.7. Lineups with Luka+Powell had a +10.1 net rating. Lineups with Luka but without Powell had only a +3.1 net rating. Powell is a really important player for them too…

And of course, none of us wish anything bad for Luka, but if he goes down, that pick is a lottery pick next year.

“Deeefense
November 16, 2020 at 1:25 pm

Updated look at OKC Thunder’s future draft picks”

I am adding the protections on said picks…

2020:
Nuggets 1st round pick (#25)
Lakers 1st-rd pick (#28)

2021: (*OKC owns the highest two of the following three picks (Houston gets the least favorable of the three)
Own 1st*
Heat 1st (unprotected)*
HOU pick-swap (protected 1-4)*

2022:
Own 1st
Clips 1st (unprotected)
Suns 1st (protected 1-12 in 2022,1-10 in 2023, 1-8 in 2024, and unprotected in 2025)

2023:
Own 1st
Clips pick-swap
Heat 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, 1-14 in 2024, 1-14 in 2025 and unprotected in 2026)

2024:
Own 1st
Clips 1st (unprotected)
HOU 1st (protected 1-4, and if it falls within that range the Rockets keep it and don’t owe it anymore)

2025:
Clips/Rockets (protected 1-10) swap picks (OKC can choose the better of the two)

2026:
Own 1st
Clips 1st (unprotected)
HOU 1st (protected 1-4, and if it falls within that range the Rockets keep it and don’t owe it anymore)

Dallas will start the season off in a weakened position with KP out a few weeks and Powel maybe not 100%, but they know when healthy they are a couple of secondary players and some experience away from serious contention. They were injury decimated last year in the playoffs. Despite that if it wasn’t for the “questionable” KP ejection they might have had the Clippers on the ropes.

They aren’t going to stand pat. They are going to be active trying to plug a few holes. Even in the worst case scenario where KP goes down again and is out for the season, they might still make the playoffs with Doncic in better condition, learning more, taking another step forward, and them adding 1-2 more supporting pieces. If KP stays healthy and gets rolling again, they will be near the top of the west with any additions.

New thread??? I think we are getting into record territory here no?

Westbrook was bound to put up lower numbers in Houston compared to recent years because Harden has the ball in his hands so often and because over the last few years in OKC, other players deferred rebounds to him to get the ball in his hands faster to start the break (and to help him stat stuff triple doubles) . Houston has done that with Harden at times also. So something had to give.

As far as getting to the rim goes, Houston’s whole strategy was to create space for him so he could finish at the rim instead of taking as many 3s. That was how they hoped to improve his efficiency.

From watching him, I’d say after all the operations he has lost a step but is not “done”. However, he might have a tougher time on a team like the Knicks where space is a huge problem (or at least was pending the moves we make). I’d expect him to have more trouble getting to the rim and finishing a year older and with less space.

As usual, Z-Man doesn’t bother reading what I wrote. Repeated here, with emphasis: They didn’t cater to Westbrook to boost his assist and rebounding numbers.

Calling Westbrook “done” is a very bold bet-statement.
Like calling Frank a future All Defensive Team member.
It shows serious lurking gambling intentions.

Another classic Strat take. Starts with a sensible statement.

‘So we are going to overpay a few mercenaries to play for us for a year again.’

But then he takes it somewhere either completely nonsensical, or (as in this case) absurdly obvious and yet still somehow off-point (I’d rather we get good).

But I do agree that just getting a random few vets is a pretty useless holding pattern. We ought to aim a little higher, at least (but please not like Westbrook heights….). And at a bare minimum let’s not get four totally mediocre guys who all play the same position.

Knew Your Nicks:
Calling Westbrook “done” is a very bold bet-statement.
Like calling Frank a future All Defensive Team member.
It shows serious lurking gambling intentions.

What does analyzing usage of language to predict gambling tendencies show? I could qualify the statement with a billion caveats but that takes time and effort that goes unappreciated.

#What does analyzing usage of language to predict gambling tendencies show? I could qualify the statement with a billion caveats but that takes time and effort that goes unappreciated.#

I recently “predicted” that Frank will join the All Defensive Team so i guess that it shows self-observation.

But then he takes it somewhere either completely nonsensical, or (as in this case) absurdly obvious and yet still somehow off-point (I’d rather we get good).

I’m not sure why it was necessary to throw the kind of dig that leads to all the problems here.

Then I feel compelled you give what I get (which I’ll refrain from here).

The obvious difference between me and some others is that I am willing to sign players in their late 20s and even as old as 30 as long as they will be productive for the duration for their contract and they are at a price that makes sense. I don’t insist that every player being on the same exact win curve.

IMO, there’s an developmental upside to young players playing with experienced seasoned pros, getting into the playoffs etc…

IMO, there’s a benefit to having a good team when it comes to attracting free agents and players looking to be traded.

IMO, there’s a benefit to having established good players when to comes to trying to roll up into a established star that may be looking to move.

Theses are the kind of benefits you miss when you get too tight assed about building exclusively via the draft and wanting everyone to be very young and on the same win curve. It takes forever and you miss out on some things by limiting yourself.

But Perry seems to have a clear sense of value. I think just going with the draft and stop gap players would reflect the organization’s conclusion that the available good young players are too expensive.

Perry is incompetent beyond not giving out long bad contracts.

He hasn’t found any good young players to gamble on and has generally overpaid the dregs he has brought in on short term deals – all while not fitting any of the pieces together well. He’s terrible.

None of us wants to overpay, but sometimes you have to stretch your thinking beyond 22-26 years old or you’ll remain in hell for a very long time

Early Bird:
As usual, Z-Man doesn’t bother reading what I wrote. Repeated here, with emphasis: They didn’t cater to Westbrook to boost his assist and rebounding numbers.

I understood exactly what you wrote. You said they didn’t cater to what he did as MVP (elite rebounding and passing, inefficient high-volume shooting) and that they “sculpted” a lineup that he didn’t suck in, but he sucked anyway. In other words, they tried to make him a second fiddle to Harden and learned that the two couldn’t coexist, which was widely expected at the time of the trade.

For Westbrook to be effective, he needs free rein to be Mr. Triple-double. If you take that away from him, he’s a square peg in a round hold. That doesn’t make him “done.”

Westbrook’s OKC teams won a ridiculous percentage of games where he had a triple-double. I don’t get the thinly-veiled criticism that he “boosted” his rebounding and assist numbers. The narrative that he somehow cheated his way to triple-doubles is ridiculous. That’s his game. He’s a great rebounder for a guard. If he beats his own teammates to rebounds, is that stat-padding or talent? This article presents both sides of that argument pretty well…I think it’s talent but whatever, it’s just an opinion.

Now it’s possible that his right knee will start to go all Melo on him….but last year he was pretty much as athletic as he was the years before. Just not as effective, mainly because of Houston being a bad situation for him.

thinking about this harden stuff, the trade that will never happen but ticks some boxes might be harden for donovan mitchell, or specifically harden and pj tucker for mitchell, conley and the jazz 1st (post pick).

although hardly an even return for houston, this lets fertitta say he got a young star in return, while still shedding a ton from his future salary, his one true love. and while utah irl might just refuse to trade mitchell for anyone, they would have a crazy two way team and avoid a little risk from the mitchell/gobert spat. hard to find a better cast to surround harden (in terms of fit) than gobert and three of bogdanovic/ingles/tucker/o’neale, all of whose can either space of defend or both.

I was just listening to a podcast where they said Houston is having trouble moving WestBrook because teams don’t want to give up assets for him. I hope that is true about the Knicks.

Z-man: I don’t get the thinly-veiled criticism that he “boosted” his rebounding and assist numbers.

That was my criticism, I don’t think it was thinly veiled at all.

Z-man: This article presents both sides of that argument pretty well…I think it’s talent but whatever, it’s just an opinion.

Nothing in the article conflicts with the premise that his teammates let Westbrook grab more rebounds.

The article claims that Westbrook’s Net Rebounding Value increased during those years. However, we would expect Net Rebounding Value to increase anytime a player grabs more rebounds. The finding is consistent and expected under the hypothesis that OKC schemed to boost Westbrook’s rebounding numbers. Of course, the finding is also consistent with the hypothesis that Westbrook simply improved as a rebounder.

Overall, I fail to see how the article refutes the premise that OKC artificially inflated Westbrook’s rebounding numbers.

As the article points out, the likely explanation for Steven Adams’s increase in rebounds, especially defensive rebounds, is the absence of Westbrook.

Also, consider that Westbrook’s rebounding improvement happened largely on the defensive end. Defensive rebounds are easier to let your teammate grab, or box out and then let your teammate grab.

Westbrook may have a better year statistically next year, but I’ll be skeptical he’s adding more value.

Knick fan not in NJ: I was just listening to a podcast where they said Houston is having trouble moving WestBrook because teams don’t want to give up assets for him. I hope that is true about the Knicks

I saw a (fake) post that the Knicks had traded Knox, Frank and a 2022 1st round pick for him. I hate it but said, “it could have been worse”.

just checking in to see if anything awful has happened with the knicks…i’ve invested waaaay too much with this team to miss any truly miseriffic moments…

seems like we’re still just telling each other scary stories of russ in orange and blue…

having a bit of a stuart smalley moment, so, i’ll say this about russ:
“It’s easier to put on slippers than to carpet the whole world.”

Ben R:
Rebounds or not Westbrook is a ball stopper who has shot an efg% below league average every season and a ts% below league average all but two seasons in his career. He gets lots of assists but does it by dominating the ball and forcing the entire offense to run through him.

At his very prime his explosiveness and rebounding maybe made up for his inefficiency but he is more than a couple years removed from his prime. Even at 90% he is a drain on an offense at less than that he quickly becomes a serious liability. If he could shoot half as much he could have value but as long as he’s taking 20+ shots a game he will be a burden.

I wouldn’t take Westbrook even if he came with a 1st round pick and we got rid of randle. He is fools gold and will torpedo any team he goes to next year.

I largely agree. Which is why I’m fully expecting the Knicks to trade for him.

I’m not as down on Westbrook as some, but agree it would be a terrible move, considering the alternatives.

Looks like Houston and Milwaukee are wheeling and dealing…

The Milwaukee Bucks have agreed to acquire Jrue Holiday from the New Orleans Pelicans for George Hill, Eric Bledsoe and three future first round picks and two pick swaps. In terms of pick compensation, the deal is similar to what the Pelicans received from the Los Angeles Lakers for Anthony Davis.

The above is from RealGM. Holiday for the same price as Anthony Davis? Griffin is indeed a good GM. But if this deal means Giannis signs long term with Milwaukee, it’s probably worth it for them.

all the pels hopes though – come down to zion’s health…but yeah, griffin is earning his money in new orleans…thunder with some assets and a million picks…as we wait to see what rose will do…

i got to imagine by now thibs has come to the realization that we don’t really have a starting point guard on our team…doesn’t look like we’ll be able to draft one – i wonder what rose will do about that…

there’s a few out there that could be available: bledsoe, augustin, rubio, teague, conley, probably not dragic or van fleet…too funny, every year it’s the same – will the knicks finally acquire an actual point guard…

don’t let rose off the hook thibs, get us a point guard…

This trade must be read as

– 3 first-round picks 2 swaps Bledsoe and Hill
FOR
– Holiday Giannis, both resigned under the table (or even just Giannis resigned).

That’s the only way this extreme haul the Pelicans got makes any sense. It was the ultimate all-in, but if Giannis stays in Milwaukee for at least 3 more years, it’s worth it.

it just seems like chris paul would have been a better fit in milwaukee (for both), would have saved the bucks a couple of picks, his salary is huge though…or maybe cp3 just didn’t want to live in the cold…

I’m just imagining Steve Mills and his little tiny stash of late first round picks and his big talk about being well positioned for whatever with the Knicks’ “war chest” when it’s not even a pop gun compared to what the Pelicans and Thunder have.