Knicks Morning News (2018.07.11)

Yes, that’s a great way to put it. It’s awesome to have a prospect that is looking to demolish the rim whenever a seam presents itself inside the 3-point line. He gets horizontal on his approaches kinda like Dwight Howard’s superman dunk.

What has to be shocking to his draft skeptics are a) his rebounding and b) his motor. You can now see how he could dominate a physical specimen like Miles Bridges in a workout to the point of making it a no-brainer for Perry and Mills. He’s got a lot of work to do, but the upside is definitely fun (*)!

Doncic.

Knox is a pretty unique player. He’s almost always relaxed and in control. Watching him next to Troy Williams is like a before and after ad for Red Bull. He doesn’t have burst or extremely tight handle yet when he goes left he usually manages to use his length and a sharp angle to get a step, even when his guy is playing him to go left. Of course, it’s pretty awkward that he can only go left and finish right at this point. Seems pretty clear that this would prevent him from be an efficient scorer as is, but he’s so young that as-is might not mean much. In the meantime a lot will just turn on whether he’s a pretty good shooter or a really good shooter.

On the other hand, I’ve read some comments here and there that his defense has been a positive surprise. I can’t understand what you guys are watching. It reminds me of early last season when there was some momentum behind the “Kanter has become a decent defender” movement. I think his motor is okay but his defense has been somewhere between bad and really bad. His length and effort are great on close outs, but when the ball and men are moving he starts to wander around aimlessly like a good Amar’e impression.

Carter Jr. has looked amazing, seems like he lost some weight. I would definitely consider trading Knox for him, but it would be an agonizing decision.

aaz

Man, we got cooked on PnR defense without Frank yesterday. Trier had a nice box score game but he was a defensive sieve out there with Mitchell Robinson, who is so raw in terms of his defensive technique.

But boy does Knox’s jumper look wet. There were fucking rainbows coming off his fingertips in the 3rd. Dude has shown some very impressive skills out there as an 18 year fresh from college facing up against guys who are up to five years older than him. They even had to put Josh Hart on him after he got cooking in the second half.

Knox’s defense hasn’t been good, but it’s not for a lack of effort, it’s mostly technique and awareness/IQ. I would bet on those things improving over time even if he never quite manages to be more than average-ish.

Offensively alot of it is still raw, but the elements of a 3 level scorer are there and I really like that he’s not much of an ISO heavy, ball pounding type of player. Most of the time he’s making quick decisions in choosing to attack the rim, shoot or keep the ball swinging.

There’s alot to feel good about working with moving forward.

I’d comfortably trade Knox for SGA, who has been great in summer league. I’d trade him for WCJ, JJJr., or Doncic without blinking.

I think it’s like this:
1. Trier
2. Knox
3. Robinson

Trier is the best all around when it comes to skill and experience. Knox is good but inconsistent, he’s a nice second option or less. Robinson needs work which is understandable.

Most people who criticize players like Dotson fail to understand that the team is not built to allow all players to excel equally. These guys do similar things in different ways. There’s a reason Trier was better with Ntilikina out. Like melo in okc, there’s a lot of volume scorers here.

Knox observations:
(1) Very impressed by his summer league interviews. Kid is smart, articulate and self-aware. He and Kornet are the highest IQ guys on the team. It won’t be brains that holds him back.
(2) His burst is not likely to improve but he will get stronger. That profile suggests his natural position will be the 3 not the 4. That will work out fine if KP/ Mitch are the 4/5.
(3) Shooting of course is key because it will force defenders to play him close enabling him to get that needed first step against athletic NBA 3’s. He’s got a nice motion but remember Gallo was projected to be a lights out shooter and he’s a career 36.7% from 3.
(4) His on ball defense has looked good to me. Once he got switched onto to Trae who tried but was unable to blow by him. His team defense may be a function of (A) they haven’t worked on schemes so people don’t know where they’re supposed to be (B) getting used to his teammates
(5) If Knox looked like a bust, we’d be apoplectic over the fact that blatant tanker Chicago got WCJ. Knox’s promise plus Mitch takes much of the sting out of that. The sting of Mudiay instead of Melton remains (Melton lit it up in his last game)
(6) 2019-20 starters: Kyrie/Frank/Knox/KP/Mitch Bench: Burke/THJ/Troy/Luke/Dot/2019 pick
(7) Question if you’ve read this far: Would you rather have Zhaire and Miami pick or Knox?

Zhaire and Miami, no question. I like what Knox has shown but I’d rather have Zhaire and the Miami pick over anyone not named Luka Doncic or Wendell Carter Jr.

That pick is unprotected in what will be a stacked prep to pro draft and no one knows how Miami will be in 2021!

One thing is fairly certain, unless something changes dramatically the Knicks are going to be comically bad on defense this year. A few of the players at summer league are going to get significant minutes in the NBA but other than Frank they can’t stop anyone in SL. We also don’t have KP, let O’Quinn walk, may move Lee, and didn’t add a defender in free agency. We are basically substituting younger worse defenders for some of our better defenders to an already bad defense.

@25

I still go off projections over the SL small sample, so I’d probably trade for Zhaire straight up, but I’d be much less confident now than before, since Zhaire has looked bad in SL and Knox has at least shown that he can rebound and has a motor.

Also I’d trade Knox for Troy Brown, who’s been quite good for the Wiz.

I’m somewhat pleasantly surprised with how Knox has looked so far and I’d still make any trade I would’ve made before summer league. He has generally looked like he belongs and that counts for something, but he’s barely addressed any of the substantive concerns people had about him.

The rebounding has been better than I thought so I hope that lasts, but everything else has been pretty much exactly where it should’ve been projected. I definitely see some potential as a capable defender on switches and maybe even some rim protection in a pinch, but if that ever happens it feels very far away to me right now.

If he can hit threes consistently, hold his own on the glass against 4s, and for the love of god stop taking that out of control floater every time he drives, he has a shot to return value relative to his draft slot.

God Forbid anyone who hated the Knox pick give an inch and actually compliment him or show any inkling of optimism. This is America and in America you never have to be wrong about anything!

Well, people are still high on Frank, even though he hasn’t shown anything beyond defensive potential thus far. You would think that at 6’6″ with a 7’0″ wingspan, he could figure out how to get to the rim for a slam once in a while. I am still waiting for even a hint of vertical or lateral explosiveness. Nada.

@30, 31 and 32.

Numerous people who were against drafting Knox, myself included, have stated on here that Knox has been more impressive re: his aggressiveness/motor and rebounding than we expected.

But you guys have a narrative to pursue, so carry on.

It is interesting to see how the Kevin Knox hype machine churn. Do we have any shooting numbers for him so far?

His raw FG% is .386, but his free throws (82%, 18-22) and 3PT shooting (38%, 8-21) have kept his TS% afloat-ish at .525.

He’s gotten some calls that I don’t think will be there in the NBA and is still shooting 39% on 2PT field goals, which is the main reason I haven’t adjusted my projection much.

Also by the eye test he looks like he’s a looooooong way away from being an even semi reliable finisher, if that ever happens. He doesn’t look bad when he puts it on the floor but he’s clueless around the basket.

I see he is shooting 39% from the field. Can’t find raw numbers.

@34 I don’t think anyone is over the top positive about Knox, or negative for that matter. I agree that @30 was not called for, but what narrative am I pushing in @32?

Yeah, it’s pretty obvious that the folks on here who didn’t like the chose of Knox are holding onto their preconceived notions of him for dear life!!
Taking into account the concerns about his game listed predraft, how can you not be optimistic having actually seen the kid play?

God the “wrong for 18 consecutive years” crowd sure is insufferable today.

I, and many other Knox doubters, have literally said that our preconceived notion that he’s a bad rebounder has been allayed somewhat (though it might not be a bad idea to wait until he’s playing in the actual NBA to hang your hat on this).

There are still tons of other concerns that haven’t been addressed, and that’s fine! Knox is very young and it’s the damn summer league. Just miss me with this “what are the Knox haters going to say now?!?!?!” nonsense or at least admit you’re only doing it because he’s scored 23 PPG.

Knox will probably be bad his rookie season but you can see why Perry/Mills were interested in him for reasons that didn’t show up in his box score.

btw while we are all in a tizzy over Knox, Damyean Dotson has quietly been horrible. That is a bummer.

not only that but his defensive numbers have improved…. his a/to is worse… and his 2p efficiency is tanking but he’s also increased his usage a ton…. efficiency isn’t such a huge deal at this point but if it continues then all the other good signs don’t really matter… he will be bad…

there are signs to be optimistic…. and i’m pretty sure everyone is pretty unanimous in that regard…. but this is far from saying that anyone is wrong at this point before any real nba games have been played… and i’m sure if he cratered that ppl will be saying that it’s only summer league…

that argument runs both ways….

I do know one thing; I’m glad we have Kevin Knox and not Mikal Bridges.

@ 49, Dotson has physical attributes but he really can’t play. Poor vision, decision making, limited skill set etc… won’t be in the league next year. It is what it is; won’t hold the pick against Mills/Perry though. I can see why they made it; maybe he had a good workout too, lol…

Knox will probably be bad his rookie season but you can see why Perry/Mills were interested in him for reasons that didn’t show up in his box score.

I think it’s very likely that Knox struggles a lot this season against real NBA defenses and will probably put up Wiggins numbers at best.

All we can hope for is that he improves each year; at his age, we should have plenty of patience.

A few summer league games are not enough to throw the towel in on Dotson.

I’ve been pretty optimistic on him, but I never saw him as much more than a 3 and D rotation player that was a plus rebounder for the G/SF position. I saw him as a potential starter that could replace Lee and add some defense and boards. I’m disappointed he hasn’t made any progress, but I think 3 games is way too short a time to throw it in.

Some more Knox shooting splits: 5/20 in the half court around the rim (5/16 on layups/dunks, 0/4 on floaters).

One thing I’ve noticed about Knox’s defense: he doesn’t contest very well. He sticks his arms up, but seems like he’s leaning away, trying not to foul, instead of actually trying to interfere with or block the shot. That, plus the fact that he’s not a particularly engaged/active off-ball defender, makes it not surprising he averaged 0.3 blocks per 40 (10 blocks total) in college, even with his 7′ wingspan.

I’ve been slightly impressed with the number of deflections he’s gotten. If he could use his arms more, like Frank does, be a little more aware/engaged, he could be a menace that way.

What I find most encouraging is the combination of a very young team full of upside and a coaching staff at least theoretically geared toward developing young players.

I think Knox is better than Wiggins right now. He’s already a better shooter and rebounder.

– damning with faint praise maybe, but what exactly is Wiggins good at?

Wiggins making 30 mill a year upsets me more than it should.

Some more Knox shooting splits: 5/20 in the half court around the rim (5/16 on layups/dunks, 0/4 on floaters).

Worth noting that he’s drawn all of his fouls on drives in the half court (I think)- so 5/20 from the field but 16-22 from the line. Still bad but a lot more encouraging.

Wiggins is good at getting to the rim and finishing, gets fouled a lot, and has decent OREB and block numbers for his position. Otherwise, he’s bad at everything. Surprisingly, he’s been a positive on offense according to the on/off metrics throughout his career.

Here’s a paragraph from Zach Lowe that ultimately tells us absolutely nothing of value but is fun to think about anyway:

P.S.: I get why folks mock the notion that Durant would consider the Knicks as long as James Dolan is slouching over the franchise, but you’re kidding yourselves if you don’t think New York will try. People who have spent years around Durant can’t say for sure what he wants from the game. It’s unclear if he knows. Some of those people predict, if you force them, that he will one day leave Golden State for a team that can be truly his.

I have no idea. I do know that Rich Kleiman, Durant’s business manager, is from New York. Scott Perry, New York’s GM, was an executive with the Seattle SuperSonics when they drafted Durant and remains close with him.

New York will obviously have company pitching Durant, if he hears pitches. (Golden State’s new arena doesn’t open until the 2019-20 season; who could blame Durant for wanting to play in it?) Those suitors will bring track records of basic competency the Dolan-era Knicks have rarely achieved.

But New York will try.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24057463/zach-lowe-winners-losers-2018-nba-free-agency

I’m not asking the people who hated the Knox pick to eat crow and say they were wrong. I’m just tired of the wet blanketing of any positive sign for this kid. Objectively he has played well in summer league. He’s all ready addressed a big concern of his with good rebounding. Is he going to be an all star? Of course we can’t say that at all right now, but it feels like a lot of the “realists” on this blog love to throw a wet blanket on any sort of optimism with this team. And if a player doesn’t fit their statistical profile then they will never ever give that player credit where credit is due. I just don’t see how you couldn’t watch these 3 games and not be just A LITTLE excited about Knox.

P.S.: I get why folks mock the notion that Durant would consider the Knicks as long as James Dolan is slouching over the franchise,

I don’t buy this anymore.

It isn’t necessary to rehash all the negatives about Dolan, but on the plus side he’s very willing to spend money and he has probably been the most pro African American owner in the league. It really comes down to his incompetent meddling in the basketball decisions. I don’t think that was a factor with Phil until the tabloids starting calling for his head after the relationship with both Melo and KP deteriorated. Right now, it appears Fisdale, Perry and Mills are all popular with players and agents. There is no good reason for any free agent or potential trade player to avoid NY other than the team is so ridiculously young and bad you’d be coming in knowing that you were a couple of years away from making serious noise unless you came in with another star. No one that is already a star is going to give up several prime years to come to NY to watch KP, Frank, and Knox develop. Had we kept and added a productive player or two and then finished the season strongly after KP came back, then maybe. But now, I can’t see it. We legitimately may be the worst team in the NBA right now unless we get some serious upside surprises.

@ 34 -everyone has a narrative to pursue. Everyone has an agenda.

Can someone tell me what his ts% in summer league was, at least?

Here’s a paragraph from Zach Lowe that ultimately tells us absolutely nothing of value but is fun to think about anyway:

It’s really staggering when you realize that, in the past 20 years, they’ve maintained max cap space once, when the fact of the matter is that just by virtue of being the New York Knicks, they’re always going to be a possibility for a star player to say, “Oh man, I’d love to win in New York.” Kyrie Irving is absolutely the type of player who would screw himself over in pursuit of being a star in New York. Who knows about Durant.

And yet they’ve kept themselves capped out like morons for decades, except for the year that they decided that STAT was the answer. And hell, at least STAT was a legitimately very good player.

It makes the THJ contract seem even more foolish, ya know? If ever there was a team that should not be futzing around on the margins of free agency, it’s the Knicks.

Can someone tell me what his ts% in summer league was, at least?

Assuming you mean Knox, it’s 52.5%

@78 I think I saw (maybe in yesterday’s thread) ~39/38/81 with a .525 TS%. Not bad given his usage/age/setting. I don’t think the FT drawing is particularly sustainable though, given (1) the amount of fouling in Summer League and (2) there’s no reason to foul someone who struggles to make a layup.

On another topic: all of Robinson’s blocks last night were on jumpers including one amazing one on a three pointer. Look at the block around 25 seconds into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXG-FqCtPGo. If that doesn’t get you excited I don’t know what will. He may not be ready strength/conditioning-wise to be a big factor this year but down the road…

Robinson is my favorite draft pick since Mark Jackson.

Thanks for the number. Just wanted to know what I am getting excited about.

No thanks on Kyrie. He’s a good player but I don’t see signing him age 27 being the move that makes us relevant again.

@81

Agree. That’s what the most enthusiastic supporters see.

On one level you should be interested in the productivity of the player’s skill set (which is what most people here primarily focus on). On another level you should be creating a checklist of what he’s capable of doing at a promising level now. If you create a checklist, Knox can already do a lot of things at a promising level that many pros cannot do. What he has to do is increase the efficiency of some of those things to become a lot become more productive. Less talented players just stop doing what they can’t do and lower their usage.

If he can improve a few things he’ll become a high usage above average efficiency scorer. That’s what people see and are getting enthusiastic about. Whether he does it is another matter, but at least he has the natural talent to check a lot of boxes.

Endowment effect — The bias of overvaluing something that we own, regardless of its objective market value

I bet 25 fanbases are happy with their first round pick after watching them in 3 Summer League games.
“Look how high he jumps!”
“I don’t care that he shot 6-21. His form looked really good!”
“He totally shut down Edward Q. G-Leaguer on that one possession where he got switched onto him!”

Well, it is too early to decide anything about Knox but I think people are just excited to see something. There’s something to be said about having no good expectations about a young player and then being pleasantly surprised. If we had drafted Doncic for example and he had those performances the fan base would probably be a lot more negative and nitpicking his issues than with Knox.

So yeah, I’m happy, he has shown good stuff and that’s more than I expected, both because I didn’t like the pick at first and because he’s so damn young.

I would say at least that he has shown there were legit reasons to be intrigued about him at the 9th, which is fair enough. Like I said, the Knicks can’t really afford to bust out on these drafts and I feel better about Knox’s floor after those performances, even though it’s obviously too early to know anything for sure.

Yeah, I guess we should shut down all conversation of Kevin Knox until he’s played 6,000 NBA minutes.

Let’s get back to arguing about politics instead.

I can’t wait until someone tells KD to drink bleach.

@89, premature ejaculation?

Meanwhile Zach Lowe, Rachel Nichols, and Howard back are on minute 15 in their podcast talking about Kevin Durant going to the Knicks and how perfect it would be

Endowment effect — The bias of overvaluing something that we own, regardless of its objective market value

I bet 25 fanbases are happy with their first round pick after watching them in 3 Summer League games.
“Look how high he jumps!”
“I don’t care that he shot 6-21. His form looked really good!”
“He totally shut down Edward Q. G-Leaguer on that one possession where he got switched onto him!”

Yup.

Are we still a hater of Kevin Knox?
Just a summer League games but with his age, performance, and we picked him 9,isnt it still a good value as of Now? Maybe it is true that it is difficult to please NY fans

For an example of the endowment effect, in 27 MPG, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is averaging 20/5/3/2/1 on a 45 FG%. And he’s putting up 15/4/6 on 7/13 shooting in 23 minutes so far today. I think he’s been clearly better than Knox in Summer League (and clearly better than Knox on the same team last year). Would we not be losing our minds if he were on the Knicks? He’s ~1 year older than Knox, but still.

“He totally shut down Edward Q. G-Leaguer on that one possession where he got switched onto him!”

Am I wrong, or is Edward Q. G-Leaguer a pretty good prospect? PAWS really likes him, and he’s never been in a system that emphasizes his strengths.

@110

I am a very big fan. He looks like the a more advanced type of player I hope Frank can become.

Yeah, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has looked very, very impressive, might be the rookie that impressed me the most out of the ones I got to watch.

The endowment effect argument is total BS. Since when does this board ever have some fan boy consensus? Give me a break. We see some good that we didn’t expect, not the next Kawhi Leonard. We also point to flaws.

What does what mean? I am not sure I understand your confusion here.

I thought I explained it quite clearly. I’m referring to this statement, from one of the tweets you posted, which I directly quoted:

The fact that he’s doing this NOW is pretty amazing.

What does “this” mean? Scoring 20+ PPG?

Why not?

It’s amazing that the 9th overall pick has shown flashes of skills? I guess we have different definitions of amazing…

The endowment effect argument is total BS. Since when does this board ever have some fan boy consensus?

Huh? He’s referring to people getting real bullish about future All-Stars from 3 games of Summer League play. The whole board doesn’t have to agree for some of its posters to overvalue their players. And they do.

Someone the other day said that Porzingis and R.J. Barrett (who this poster was implying would become a Knick) were certain to have better careers than Tatum and Brown. So far, Tatum has been markedly better than Porzingis on the offensive end, and he was a rookie starter on the league’s best defense. Brown is overrated but young, and Barrett hasn’t even played a minute of college ball yet. That’s the endowment effect in action.

Nate Robinson won the Summer League MVP in 07……so yeah we can probably temper our expectations on Knox based on SL performances.

That said, there are promising signs. I don’t think he has really addressed all the pre-draft concerns, but he looks like he will at least be fun to watch in what will likely be a down year.

Of course the fact that Tatum joined an all ready really good team has nothing to do with him being good, right?

He joined the 13th-ranked defense. Was Tatum good because the Celtics were good, or were the Celtics good because they had Tatum?

Last I checked, the players are the ones responsible for a team’s performance. Pretty crazy concept, but I’m almost positive that it’s true. Almost.

Not sure why this is a hard concept to figure out.

Yup

The endowment effect with regard to this blog is an argument with only one side to it. Of course, we’re Knick fans here. Of course, we’re going to be discuss Kevin Knox. I doubt blazerblogger.com is going to discuss Kevin Knox. When we do, some will overrate him, because, of course, we’re Knick fans here. Every single fan base overrates their players. Endowment effect? Sure. But we are MUCH less apt to do that on this board. Like MUCH. So, freakin’ much. How someone can look at the measured comments on this thread, both positive and negative, and conclude that we’re all a bunch of homers is beyond me. Sure, some are over the top if they’re comparing him to Tatum or predicting all star status. But saying that, because you point out that he held his own on the perimeter, you are overvaluing your own acquisition is something I find to be a lame argument and defining a psychological effect and generalizing it to a whole board of posters, with no actual quote attributed, I find to be objectionable.

Maybe you’re right 2for18. Anything good can’t happen cuz Knicks.

Z-Man, I saw a highlight on ESPN of Knox making a lefty layup. That must mean he’s figured it out. Hall of fame here we come! That’s my man!

JaVale McGee is a poster child for blowing up the “context doesn’t matter” argument. On the Warriors, he’s essentially Tyson Chandler in 9.5 mpg, especially the .642 TS%. Before that, he never broke the .600 barrier. Hard to believe that Kerr couldn’t figure out a way to play him 20 MPG, given that he was the 3rd best player on the team…or figure out a way to keep him, being that he signed with the Lakers for the vet’s minimum.

Bosh also went from being a C in TOR to a PF in MIA, at least initially, so that hurt his rebounding and block numbers (and probably offensive numbers too). Playing next to Bargnani also tends to help your rebounding numbers.

Oh, let’s keep going.

Porzingis
2PT AST’d 64.7%
3PT AST’d 98.9%

Tatum
2PT 56.5%
3PT 92.4%

They had virtually identical dunk %FGAs, so, IDK, maybe Porzingis is better at driving and “creating” his own dunk attempt? Doubt it.

Looks like Tatum created more than Porzingis did. Amazing how the stats respond to a whole bunch of baseless conjecture.

@135 Kind of, yeah. The Celtics’ top 5 players in minutes played all had between 15-20 points/36, so they were able to share the offensive load and attack mismatches. His usage only went from 19.5% to 23.3%.

Yes. The same team that the year before also made the conference finals without those max players on their team.

The same team?

Avery Bradley 645 MP (1st)
Jae Crowder 596 MP (3rd)
Isaiah Thomas 521 MP (5th)
Kelly Olynyk 346 MP (6th)
Gerald Green 192 MP (7th)

Then some scrubs at the bottom of the rotation.

I’ll do the math for you. Boston players played 4345 minutes in the 2016-17 postseason, and 2563 of those minutes played came from guys who were not on the roster for a minute of the 2017-18 season. That’s 58.9% of available minutes.

So again, I ask: the same team?

I don’t have the Synergy numbers to prove this

Okay, but not helpful.

but I’m guessing

Okay, so–

The opportunities he’s good at are primarily jumpers and attacking closeouts—those opportunities can’t be created out of thin air. Someone else has to generate them.

From where did you get this conjecture?

Please point out where I’m going wrong.

Making baseless claims is where you’re going wrong.

From late January (47 games in):

According to Synergy Sports, 60 percent of his catch-and-shoot attempts are unguarded. While a portion of that luxury is attributed to his teammates creating shots for him, his knack for locating open gaps behind the arc helps the offensive flow.
…
Per Synergy Sports, Tatum ranks in the 92nd efficiency percentile on spot-up jumpers
…
Through November, 43.3 percent of Tatum’s field goals had come on possessions where he made zero dribbles, per NBA.com. That rate shrunk to 35.1 percent in December and is at 32.1 percent so far in January.
…
He does a nice job attacking overzealous closeouts and accepting what the defense gives him. Analytics gurus might say mid-range jumpers aren’t sexy, but the combo-forward consistently opts for open two-pointers over contested three-balls. He ranks in the 92nd percentile in medium-range jump shots,
…
According to Synergy, 22.8 percent of Tatum’s shots at Duke came in isolation. That frequency was never going to translate into his rookie season […] Tatum sits at a palatable 9.4 percent, but the one-on-one specialist we saw last season is beginning to resurface.
…
As a playmaker, Tatum has much more room to grow. Creating a shot for himself comes as second nature, but generating quality looks for his teammates would make him truly dynamic. He averages an underwhelming 1.3 assists per game.

Perhaps his distribution statistics may be slightly skewed by Boston’s unique rotation, which includes four natural point guards (Irving, Marcus Smart, Terry Rozier and Shane Larkin) and an elite passing center in Horford, who averages 5.3 assists per contest, but he has the foundation to become a serviceable facilitator.

I think this largely backs up what I’m saying—he obviously improved throughout the season though. It wasn’t baseless conjecture: I read about and watched basketball throughout the season, including reading articles that cited Synergy stats.

What does “this” mean? Scoring 20+ PPG?

He doesn’t mention PPG. I think he’s talking about Knox’s game. The fact that there aren’t many 18 year old NBA players 6’9? and over that can run the break, shoot a pretty 3 ball, shoot from mid range, can take man off dribble n drive, run the pick and roll, grab boards n initiate the break, and can 1 man fast break off the board.

It’s amazing that the 9th overall pick has shown flashes of skills? I guess we have different definitions of amazing…

The whole idea of drafting Knox 9th was that he was young, raw, and had untapped potential. It was the entire case that mitigated his lackluster college stats. A lot of people didn’t expect him to flash so much from the start. Here alone the consensus has been that he’s looked better than expected. I don’t get why it’s a revelation that people were pleasantly surprised.

Some more Tatum tracking stats. It’s hard to contextualize these though. He ended the season with 34.2% of his shots coming on zero dribbles and 22.1% on one dribble. In the playoffs, that went down to 20.6% and 20.2% respectively, and his catch and shoot frequency went from 26.1% to 13.6%. So maybe you can make the argument that by the time the playoffs arrived, Tatum was ready to be a primary initiator type. It’s much harder to make the argument for regular season. And I do think the Celtics were unique in the playoffs in that, for most of their minutes, all 5 players could handle the ball and score. That makes playing matchups much easier.

Comparing Porzingis to other “bigs?” What does this mean? He plays like a tall wing on offense. Tons of midrange and 3s. He dunks about 1/3 as often as an Adams, 1/5 as often as a Capela, 1/6 as often as a DeAndre Jordan.

If we’re going to harp on roles and how they make us think that Porzingis will have a better career than Tatum (which based on every measurable we have — laughable), we need to not cherry pick stats based on arbitrary ideas about “bigs” and “wings.” Porzingis is decidedly not a big on offense.

Jowles one of those top players for the celts the year before was isiah Thomas who was replaced by Irving who is a better player. What’s your point? The Celtics team the year before was just as good as this years team. Made the conference finals and got trounced by the Cavs. So in the most important respect, winning when it counts…Tatum didn’t really make them that much better.

Roasted.

Jowles one of those top players for the celts the year before was isiah Thomas who was replaced by Irving who is a better player.

Thomas was a trainwreck on D, but he played 2500 minutes on .625 TS% and 34.0 USG%. That’s insane, Curry-like numbers.

I would take Irving over Thomas ten out of ten times today, but in 2016-17? No way. Thomas was a total beast. Even ORtg, which sings the praises of low-volume scorers like Jordan, Porter, Gobert, Tristan T., Capela, Zeller, etc., had him at 12th overall.

Tatum was brought up gently.

I don’t really consider taking the LeBron Cavs to 7 without two max players “brought up gently,” but I think we have quite a few definitions that we’re not really seeing eye-to-eye on.

And this whole conversation is about people saying that Porzingis will be a better player than Tatum because of the endowment effect. I’m not saying that Tatum was even the best rookie last year, or even all that productive, on the whole. I’m saying that Porzingis is less so, and two seasons more “mature.”

I think a lot of people are overly bullish on their favorite team, and that it’s a pretty reasonable assertion to make. Sometimes it goes as far as “Derrick Rose didn’t rape that woman” (like an endowment effect of virtue — “my child would never do that”), a defense you don’t really see much of anymore, because he sucked as a Knick and is no longer a Knick. I noticed this on r/nyknicks and it was striking — where there was defensiveness or skepticism, there’s now a tone of “fuck that guy.” Interesting to watch it happen as he switched jerseys.

lol the Cavs are morons:

https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1017252118548418560

I do think KP was largely misused on offense (not enough PnP, coming off screens)

One reason KP doesn’t get PnP opportunities is that he is a straight up pitiful screener. You need the “pick” part for the “pick and pop” to work.