Knicks Morning News (2018.07.05)

One thing I’ll say about Fizdale – he is not shy about calling out other coaches — has semi-called out Hornacek a bunch of times about his decisions last year, and in a Berman article basically said that he was the one who always wanted “position-less basketball” in Miami and that he had to convince Spoelstra to do it. I’m not totally sure i like it.

I don’t think it’s “calling out” when you say that you proposed an innovation to a head coach and he eventually came around and it worked. One interesting thing is that Noah is well suited for that brand of play (if he’s not totally cooked) since he rebounds, brings the ball up and looks to pass ahead to guards and wings. I would love to se us get at least vet’s minimum production out of Noah, just enough to make other teams think about whether he could help but not enough to displace Robinson.

I don’t think Fisdale called out Spo out. He grabbed a little too much credit. It’s probably not such a good look to basically say I was the one that deserves all the credit for that offense.

What did he say about Hornacek?

Somehow I missed that.

maybe “calling out” is the wrong way to say it re: the Spoelstra thing, but yeah, grabbing credit and in so doing, taking credit away from Spoelstra for their offensive innovations. Re: Hornacek, he’s said a few things about how he wouldn’t have done something this way or that way, such as playing the young guys more, etc. Most coaches would have just said that we’re starting new and the past is the past.

Not for nothing, but doesn’t it feel like training camp already? It’s a good look to have 80% of your team together working and practicing in July.

And I don’t see that stopping (maybe pausing as guys do offseason R&R). If that holds true through October, this team’s gonna look sharp from the gun.

Just sayin’.

The Knicks official Twitter and Instagram has posted a lot of small clips of practice, that’s all I’ve seen so far.

As they say in the election business, “too early to call…”

I think they need to shoot for 16 wins to get a top 3 pick. The east is bad, man. And west teams like Sacto will get pummeled.

Philly is quietly having a nice offseason with the expected buyout of Bayless, and the Chandler, Smith, and Bjelica additions. Add the re-signings of Johnson and Redick , and they look like arguably the best team in the East

Isn’t it so great that now that we really have a really really really bad team, the lottery odds were changed?
I think you have to shoot for at best the 4th worst record, 1-4 seem almost identical. 5 is really right there with 8% worse chances at top-3, 3.5% worse chance at top-1. Basically, we have as much of a chance as anyone of getting the top pick.
It’s so awesome that Philly and Boston raped the system like that, and fucked us at the time, and now.

I may have spoken too soon. There are a few other teams with shitty rosters:
NYK: Frank, Hardaway, Lee?, Knox?, Kanter (wow)
Atlanta: Young, Schroeder, Prince?, Bazemore, Dedmon
Orlando: DJ Augustin, Fournier, Gordon, Isaac, Biyombo
Sac: Fox, Bogdan, Jackson, Z-Bo/Bagley, WCS
Phoenix: Knight?, Booker, Ariza, Chriss, Ayton
Chicago: Dunn, Holiday, Valentine, Markannen, Lopez
Brooklyn: Russell, Dinwiddie, Crabbe, Carroll, Jarrett Allen?

Atlanta is my adopted 2nd team this season. They are going to be awful, but fun to watch = a homeless man’s Warriors, or maybe more like Houston. They will be running and chucking 3’s like crazy. They can throw out a line-up of rookie of the year Trae, Huerter, Taurean Prince, John Collins and Jock Londale.

Orlando is another team that might be super fun if IT2 signs there. IT2 with a front line of Aaron Gordon, Isaac and Bamba!

@18 Boston will have something to say about that

This Knicks team is going to struggle a lot. It may be more fun to watch, let’s hope so, but 20-25 wins sounds about what the ceiling is.

I can’t believe I was under last year with 26 wins. I also can’t believe we weren’t smart enough only to win 26. Oh well.

Too early to start thinking about projections, but yeah, we gonna stink.

@22. you forgot Hez

@english_knick thanks for the suggestions yesterday! Fun break from debating whether we’ll be really bad or epically bad

Hey, what’s the deal with Jalen Brunson? Why did he drop to the 2nd round? Size? Age? “Athleticism?”

yes

Here’s one trade that solves everyone’s problems;
Basically we move two contracts Lee and Timmy for taking back deng and Kuzma ; what do you think?

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7hfe67h

i’m pretty sure we’ll track bottom 5 … the kings and hawks are probably the competition…

we lost koq.. I highly doubt kp will return … and we’re depending on burke, kanter and th2 to carry the productive load… that’s not going to result in many wins…

that should be the desired outcome… we need more lotto luck to turn this around…

Cinderella story…New York Knicks…IT’S IN THE HOLE!!

#thinkpositive

Blah.

"I really think we’re going to find somebody who fits the bill." https://t.co/8J0uP7J9g3— SLAM Magazine (@SLAMonline) July 5, 2018

I mean half the Knicks team arguably shouldn’t be in the NBA based on their current playing ability.

We’re playing with a worse team than we had post KP last year.

I mean, I don’t hate Fizdale saying we will go for big fee agents next summer.

It means they’re not looking to make moves to win now, and are looking to develop the kids. Next year we’ll know better what to expect from guys like Ntilikina, Dotson and we’ll have an indication of where players like Knox and Robinson and even KP post injury are.

If we do get a top 3 pick to go with this core I’m fine with looking at big free agents to compliment it, as we’ll still have young pieces on small contracts to work with. As long as these guys come from free agency and not bad trades it’s an improvement from the previous attempts to win now. We just have to do what’s right this year and pick a very good prospect and then there’s something exciting in place.

I think Kyrie is option #1 assuming Durant is out of the question. Kemba would be one possible backup plan. I like Kemba as a player, but not at age 28-29 on this team at the max. If they do that, then we’ll know nothing has changed. If they don’t get Kyrie, I’d prefer they just get a couple of solid defensive role players on relatively short good contracts and start filling out the team better. They can always move contracts like that if they are 1-2 years. The idea being to role the cap space over until there’s finally a really good free agent or trade opportunity.

Enough with the typical Knicksian whining…not very attractive.

Knicks will make playoffs in 2018-19; coaching matters and so does productivity during contract year. Burke and Kanter ball out of their mind. With all the expiring and youth on team, we make a blockbuster trade at deadline and never look back. Miami & Cleveland fold. Detroit and Knicks get in.

I’m not opposed to bringing in high-level free agents next offseason, but Kyrie Irving is injury prone, rather one dimensional (though he was admittedly an elite scorer last season), and is a bit of a head case.

He literally checks off every Knicksy box and his skillset will almost certainly earn him the max which I believe will start at around $36m AAV. It’s very difficult for me to see us reflecting positively on that contract by the time it ends.

I don’t think every player currently on the roster + Kyrie Irving puts the fear of god into the elite Eastern Conference teams, let alone the West.

Kyrie AND Butler is a lot more intriguing, but I see no way to open up two max slots by next offseason unless we can completely dump both THJ and Lee. After that it’ll be impossible since Porzingis will presumably be signed to a max extension for better or worse.

Since Butler is whining, I wonder if Minny would entertain a trade of essentially TH2 plus a piece for Butler.

Z-man

I proposed the same thing @32

There’s no way we’re getting Timmy for butler without a first thrown in and not worth the risk for a possible one year deal

we’re projected to be the worst team in the NBA as of now.

I don’t know, Sacramento has to play Golden State, Lakers, or Portland every few games. Phoenix too. They may be better than the Knicks on paper, but they are going to rack up losses just for waking up in the West every morning.

Probably a 30-year old Jimmy Butler who’s been ground into dust by Thibodeau.

Butler is not a 2nd tier “star”. After a slow start last year he was a top ten player, as he is every year. He’s only played 450 games in the NBA thus far. Minnesota was 4th in the West and climbing rapidly when he got injured.

And Tibs running players into the ground is a fallacy. Everybody gets injured in the NBA, now more than ever.

Put me down as NOT on board with the Kyrie Irving idea.

Nice player, but he’s injury prone and he is a weirdo. It is not hard at all to imagine getting one or two good seasons out of him until he breaks down from injuries then playing the “when does Kyrie’s contract expire” game and asking “should we stretch waive Kyrie” and “why is Kyrie eating Vaseline on YouTube” and all of that.

This is a movie I have absolutely seen before.

“Since Butler is whining, I wonder if Minny would entertain a trade of essentially TH2 plus a piece for Butler.”

The TH2 on the Knicks? Maybe a piece of Jessica Alba and a piece of Fort Knox….

Ha. There’s Bastiat’s unseen again. I’m with you 63.

Mitchell Robinson is the new Anthony Randolph and it’s going to be gloriously terrible when he goes off in April.

All of Enes Kanter, Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, and Trey Burke need to be on the trade block in December. Believe it or not, Burke, Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, Kevin Knox, and Enes Kanter could be an average offense even if it’s the league’s worst defense, and that won’t be good enough to out tank the likes of Atlanta, Sacramento, Brooklyn, and Charlotte.

1: Frank/Burke/Baker
2/3: THJ/Dotson/Courtney/Frank/Baker/Knox/Troy/Trier
4: Hez/KP/Kornet/Knox/Troy/Hicks
5: KOQ/Noah/Kornet/Robinson

That’s 16 roster spots, including the 2-way guys. Sign someone – PF Alan ? – to a 1 year deal using BAE. I don’t think the BAE is available to teams under the cap so important to use this year.

I’ve completely given up hope of trading Lee for anything useful simply because the league is being super cautious about making such moves. Wilson Chandler, about the same age and on a similar deal (but expiring now instead of 2 years) was traded for a future 2nd. There’s no way a team gives up more than a late 2nd for him.

I’m all for trading him anyway, and Kanter and every other veteran, but the front office has to realize there will be very little compensation if any for guys like Lee or Thomas.

And Tibs running players into the ground is a fallacy. Everybody gets injured in the NBA, now more than ever.

Yeah, no.

Derrick Rose
Joakim Noah
Luol Deng
Jimmy Butler
Mike Dunleavy
Pau Gasol (though he’s been hurt a bunch, everywhere)

Those were all core Thibs players, all playing a lot of minutes. Also, if you look up distance covered (our new defensive metric!), they were all leaders while playing for Thibs. In other words, not only did he ride them like Secretariat, but when they were on the court, they ran like Secretariat.

Is it a big enough sample size? It is for me. I am glad he didn’t come here, despite my respect for how hard he gets his players to play.

I mentioned the other day that the Chandler deal did not bode well for trading Lee. However, the Nuggets were pretty desperate to move Chandler to get out from under their tax bill and there were only a couple of teams with the cap space to take him without returning salary. The Nuggets were desperate and the 76ers took advantage of the situation. The Knicks are not desperate. Also, I’d argue that Lee is more of what teams are looking for than Chandler because he a 40% 3p shooter.

I don’t care what the market says, if the Knick pay to trade Lee I won’t consider it a bad deal. I will consider them brain damaged. There is nothing wrong with Lee’s deal. If he’s overpaid it’s not by a significant amount. The 2nd year is also not especially relevant because he’s not declining. He was as good last year as he’s ever been and salaries are supposed to slowly rise as the cap slowly rises.

The ONLY reason to trade him is because a veteran like him (and Noah) deserve to be on a good team instead one that’s semi blowing up. He doesn’t fit and now we have a glut. However, IMO, wanting to do him a favor does nor justify making a bad deal. IMO, taking back an expiring contract for a real dreg and releasing that player would be the only acceptable deal and only because he doesn’t fit in our youth movement and he deserves better than what we are doing.

When the market for what you have is bad, that’s not the time to pay to get rid of the player.

Why so quick to trade Burke? He could be our back up PG.

I think we might end up with a better record than people are predicting.

I thought this for awhile also. We are going to be better at PG next year regardless of whether Frank or Burke wins the job. Burke is better than Jack and if Frank beats Burke out of the job, that’s even better. However, I was expecting us to draft Mikal Bridges and keep O’Quinn.

If Burke is the starting PG with Hardaway, Knox, Hezonja and Kanter, that’s probably the worst defensive starting 5 in the NBA. We’ll also be weaker at C off the bench with the loss of O’Quinn. Knox may or may not eventually be better than Bridges, but most likely Bridges is going to further along next year overall and a much better defender.

My idea of rebuilding is to bottom out and then slowly get better as you accumulate pieces and the young players develop. We sort of got lucky/unlucky with the Porzingis injury in that it set us back a little and enabled us to get a better pick. But I think the moves we are making now are probably making us a worse team short term and making the glide path to getting good longer. I’m going to christen what we are doing as a “double dip” rebuild (kind of like a double dip recession).

@77

I’m all for opening enough cap space to land to one or two star players, but I’m not so sure I am fully on board with Irving and Butler. IMO, both are legitimate stars (though some of Irving’s excellent performance last year might have been related to playing for Stevens). However, Irving is injury prone and Butler isn’t as young as I’d like. Certainly even considering Irving will depend on his health this year. Also, I’m not entirely convinced either is going to choose NY given a lot of teams will have space and some better teams might have enough for two.

If they don’t pick NY, do you trust our management to fill the space with a few placeholders on 1 and 2 year contracts waiting for the 2020 free agency?

There’s a huge risk they don’t roll the space over and instead commit to overpaying second tier players.

If the Knicks end up with a core four of Ntilikina, Knox, Barrett, and Porzingis I truthfully don’t care who gets the max salary deals. Porzingis and Barrett would give us a pair of two way studs that would be as good as any young duo in the league. Irving, Barrett, Butler, Knox, Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Robinson would make the Dolan era worth it.

The flattening of the lottery odds would seem to benefit us, since we can’t or won’t tank correctly in the first place. So we got that going for us.

Stevens is great, but we know NBA players peak around 25-27.

I’m no genius but Patrick Ewing at 31 and 32 looked as good or better than at 25 and 26. If you factor in all the replacement-level, barely-made-the-league, and out-of-the-NBA-before 30 guys, it might average out that players peak around 25-27 but it doesn’t seem like that’s a number that can really be applied to individual players. Chauncy Billups had his best seasons between 29-33.

Mike

I’m not trying to argue about the minutes played thing with you Donnie but rather play devil’s advocate as I’m no expert on any of this so I don’t do much posting during this time of year due to that fact.

Athletes are so much more “athletic” now due to advanced nutrition, supplements, training, etc, that it could make them less durable than they were in the past. They are so optimized that they are more likely to have greater injuries with less time played.

It’s like horse racing. The thoroughbreds break down easily because they different bone structure than the Clydesdale. You occasionally get a freak of nature like Lebron and that’s your triple crown winner.

I’m not trying to argue about the minutes played thing with you Donnie but rather play devil’s advocate…
Athletes are so much more “athletic” now due to advanced nutrition, supplements, training, etc, that it could make them less durable than they were in the past. They are so optimized that they are more likely to have greater injuries with less time played.

Because Derrick Rose couldn’t shoot, his style was to drive into the lane where all the giant people were and draw contact. That isn’t really sustainable whether it’s for 35 minutes a game or for 30.

As for Deng, the year before Thibs arrived in Chicago Vinnie Del Negro played him 38 minutes a game. Thibs simply kept the minutes volume at that level, and Deng went on to play in every game for over 100 straight regular season games for him. To correlate him missing games in LA because of the games he didn’t miss in Chicago may be possible, but, then again, why should Thibs care about how many games Deng misses for another team five years after he parts ways?

For Noah, if he played for obstinate minutes handler Greg Popovich he may still be playing viable minutes in the NBA today. But, then again, he also may not. A lot of players just get hurt and fade out earlier than others. Is it always the coach’s fault? Noah was injured a lot under Del Negro as a young man playing fewer minutes. Thibs got more out of him than his predecessor.

Mike Dunleavy played for Thibs when he was 33-34 years old and played pretty well. To say he ruined him is kind of silly, since he was never that good and was at the end of his career anyway.

Gasol played one season for Thibs and was 34 years old and playing in his 14th season and still played almost every game that season. Including him on the list is ridiculous.

But, ultimately, Jimmy Butler is the only one on the list worth talking about because he’s the only one still playing meaningful minutes in the league. And he remains a top ten player on both sides of the court. (How can one compare him to Carmelo with a straight face?) Butler earns his yearly salary even with the games he spends on the bench (which one season ago, after Thibs had supposedly run him into the ground in Chicago, was only six games).

Jimmy Butler will do just fine on his next contract. (He’ll just do better if it’s for some team that’s not the Knicks, of course:)

I’m not understanding why this current regime wants to go all in on free agents next year. Hasn’t recent history shown that the best free agents want to join successful (winning) franchises. This team will be lucky to win 20 games this year and is almost devoid of talent. Yes there is KP, but who knows how he will come from this latest injury. As much as many of us admire his game, he has not shown to me that he is a franchise player. The rest of the team shows some possibilities (i.e. Frank, Burke, Knox), but all are far from sure bets.

Isn’t the most reasonable path at this point to tank and just try to develop young talent, which will eventually lead to a solid core to eventually attract the one or two free agents we need to truly contend. Right now we have almost nothing.

My fear and the likelihood is that we will not develop any young talent, and instead we will have to settle for middling free agents (Kemba’s).

As a long suffering Knick fan it would be nice to finally just be patient and do the slow rebuild rather than signing mediocre free agents. How many times are we going to sign the THJR’s, Noah’s and Courtney Lee’s of the world and a year or two later wondering how we can get rid of them. We have gone down this path so many times and it never works out. It looks like this current regime is once again doomed to repeat our failed history rather than learning from it.

It’s the return of the east is big, man?

Derrick White is looking like the best player on the court in these games, I would not be surprised to see him taking a lot of minutes in the Spurs rotation this year. The kid is a keeper.

I’m not understanding why this current regime wants to go all in on free agents next year.

I don’t understand it either. I complained before about the NBA team herd mentality when it comes to free agents. If everyone is going after free agents next year with new found cap space, I think it would be better to be conservative and keep our powder dry for the next year when free agent remorse will set in among most of the league. But, as Brian pointed out, it’s very hard for NBA teams not to actually do as much as possible to be better any given year, both by competitive nature and because GM jobs are on the line.