(Sunday, December 10, 2017 11:04:29 PM)
Kristaps Porzingis scored 30 points, Doug McDermott added 23 and the New York Knicks held on late to beat the Atlanta Hawks, 111-107, on Sunday at Madison Square Garden.
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 10:27:32 AM)
After a surprising loss to the NBA-worst Bulls Saturday night, head coach Jeff Hornacek couldn’t hold in his frustration after the game.
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 9:37:40 PM)
Enes Kanter showed up for the Knicks game with the Hawks on Sunday on crutches. So naturally, he started. “If you’re going to make the playoffs, you’re going to make some sacrifices,” said Kanter, who was feeling the effects of getting kneed in the hip Saturday in Chicago — an injury that left him on…
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 8:24:23 PM)
Fans have an obsession with tanking for a high lottery pick, thinking it is the correct strategy for all rebuilding clubs. When Knicks GM Scott Perry met with the media Saturday in Chicago, he sent a message to fans — and his players. No tanks. Team president Steve Mills and Perry aren’t focused on gaining…
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 5:35:15 PM)
The schedule-maker smiled at the Knicks over this past weekend. He gave them back-to-back games, never a joy, but they were against the two worst teams in the NBA. The key, of course, is to beat them. On Saturday in Chicago against the woeful Bulls, they did not. On Sunday at the Garden against the…
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 7:45:58 PM)
Jarrett Jack posted a season-high 19 points Sunday.
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 5:27:27 PM)
Faith in Frank Ntilikina and small ball ultimately paid off for the Knicks. But a victory over the lowly Hawks didn’t come easy.
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 3:28:20 PM)
Amar’e Stoudemire’s Judaism is bringing him back to the Garden.
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 3:24:33 PM)
It was only Game 25, but Enes Kanter said he was already physically sacrificing for a playoff push.
(Monday, December 11, 2017 12:41:06 AM)
So what do you do for an encore after you lose to the worst team in basketball?
(Sunday, December 10, 2017 10:49:55 PM)
(Monday, December 11, 2017 1:35:33 AM)
The New York Knicks got 30 points from Kristaps Porzingis, but Jeff Hornacek’s five-man bench crew made a big difference against the Atlanta Hawks.
74 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.12.11)”
Here’s my response to a prior post requesting ideas about improving the team:
I think we should play Noah approx. 10 min a game, as a teacher for KP. When KP doesn’t get low and wide with his arms spread and move his feet on defense, replace him with Noah. When KP does not pass out of the double-team, replace him with Noah. When KP doesn’t screen out and fight for rebounds, replace him with Noah. I believe Noah still has a lot to give, including effort, rebounding, passing and camaraderie. Utilize that skillset.
Perry’s comments about them not wanting to buy out Noah and he still has a lot to give leads me to believe that he will play soon, maybe after a KQ trade?
I agree though. I think we could use Noah. I think he can still give us something, especially when any of our bigs are hurt. He’s on the team anyways, so might as well use him.
I don’t think you do that in a game. You do that in practice, where he’s up and down the floor w/ Noah all day.
This, from Berman on why Perry is anti-tank, seemed notable:
Letting players help dictate your longterm strategy is rarely healthy, as we saw throughout Melo’s tenure. And odds are KP would take the money no matter what. But if they feel genuinely worried about losing him if this is another nightmare season…
Forget tanking. Tanking is for teams at the very bottom of the standings, going down the home stretch, looking to grab a top drat pick. Tanking is NOT for a young .500 team showing good signs early in the season, especially when they’re trying to dig out of decades of losing. The idea of trying to lose all your games so you can maybe move up the draft, and maybe get lucky with draft pick is ludicrous.
Perry explained clearly that the knicks are not going to try to lose games: “I don’t think that’s healthy for any culture. I think if you try to institutionalize losing, that’s hard to get out of your building. You may never get that out of your building.” Absolutely!
Besides, players don’t know how to lose. Every pro has been winning from the time they started playing in their driveway at 5 years old, to the day they got drafted out of college. They only know how to win. Trying to lose every game would be abhorrent.
The more games they win, the more free agents will want to play here. And if the knicks have any hope of keeping KP, they better start going in the right direction.
The knicks are not tanking. They are not going to tank. They shouldn’t tank.
Noah brings good energy on the floor. He’s extremely active and vocal. Can’t understand why they don’t give him minutes, making KOQ,or Willy available for a piece (PG) that fits more into their needs.
In addition to utilizing Noah’s skillset, you may make him more marketable as well. Don’t forget that there’s a guy in Minnesota who saw only the best from Noah. Give him an idea that he can contribute to the Wolves and he may just bite. you only need 1 trading partner to make a deal. My recommendation: do the best to develop and showcase all of your players. You never know who’s watching.
i’m really looking forward to the lakers game tomorrow…a lot of good young players (brandon ingram being one of my favorites) will be out there on the court…
not sure we’re really a .500 team, but, it’s good to see the knicks competing in most games…some way or another, horny needs to figure a way to coach some consistency out of the roster…not an easy job…
frank and ron out on the court together had me thinking how well suited to some 70’s cop show those two are…starsky and hutch all the way – those are some pesky dudes on defense, hopefully they can help slow down all those 3 point shots other teams are shooting 🙂
Yeah I feel like we keep having this tank debate and I keep saying the same stuff.
You can’t compare this year to the past 20. Perry and this regime are a new regime. Past regimes drafted well only to trade them away for cap space to chase aging stars. Or they traded away picks for win now moves. To say we’re trying to “win now” like the past 20 years is disingenuous. The focal of our offense is a 22 year old in his third year that we drafted. Our best players are all 25 and under (KP, Kanter, Hardaway) and we have other young pieces (Frank, McDermott, Dotson, Ron, Willie) who are all very young. WE have a few stop gap veterans (Jack, Sessions, KQ) and one very good aging vet (Lee). The young players are getting minutes (some more than others but you have to earn those minutes!). We aren’t letting young dudes rot away on the bench in favor of Melo and Rose.
Plus we have picks going forward. We have one very bad contract (Noah). And one kinda bad contract with Lance.
And again..everyone who advocates tanking can’t really list any championship teams that actively tanked for a few seasons to get a top pick. We all ready did that to get KP. And we did it the second half of last year to get in the top 10 of the draft. We will add value to the team in the years to come through the draft and those players will have a better shot at succeeding and developing if they come to a team where they have a definite role and their is a system in place and the games are competitive.
And shit if we suck in January, we can tank the rest of the way and trade Lee and maybe KQ for something back and probably still get in the top 10. 32 wins last year got us the number 8 pick.
Minn doesn’t have any salaries that match up in a trade for Noah.
I’m kinda sick to be honest of this whole “we need to keep KP happy” talk.
He needs to improve, and if he doesn’t I really don’t care if he leaves or not. Superstars generally start playing like superstars in their 3rd to 4th years, and unless he really makes a leap he’s not a superstar (and yet will, like Wiggins, get paid like one).
Building a team to make one guy happy so he stays when this guy is not a top 10 guy in the league is misguided and leads to bad management.
To begin with, he’s not walking away from the 150 million the Knicks will surely give him. If he wants to because the team sucked for 4 years, well, guess what, he’s part of the reason the team sucked in the first place. It’s not like he’s playing with a g-league roster like the Sixers when they won 10 games, there is talent on the Knicks.
Yeah, let’s build a losing culture. Management should tell the coaches to make bad coaching decisions. Don’t worry, if you’re ever looking for another coaching job, just tell them that you accomplished your objective by losing.
And tell the players to lose, too. We know in the past you were taught to win. Not anymore. Don’t worry about the boo’s and the bad press, and that depressing feeling of losing. And don’t worry about your market value. Losing is good.
Dear fans, don’t hate us. You see, we’re losing on purpose. That’s our goal.
Losing is good because next year we may be able to get the # 8 pick instead of the #10 pick.
as phil so aptly demonstrated – tanking isn’t necessarily something you willingly orchestrate…put together a shitty roster, foster mistrust between the players, coaches, and front office and voila – there it is – you’re tanking…
not so sure we’ll win 41 games, but, barring injury to kp, i don’t believe we’ll only win the 27 which i guessed at the beginning of the season…
should be an up and down year, all year long…
he’s 8th in the league in scoring at 25 PPG. he’s 3rd in the league in blocks. He’s making 2 3’s a game at 38% despite being 9 friggen feet tall. I can count about 15 guys in the league I’d rather have (LBJ, KD, Westbrook, Harden, Draymond, Towns, Kyrie, freak, curry, Imbiid, Cousins, Davis, Leonard, Butler, maybe Gasol, Simmons, Ron Baker) and he’s younger than all but 2 of them. How much more could he have to improve before he’s on the superstar level?
Are you replying to me? Where did I say you tell coaches or players to intentionally make bad decisions or lose on purpose?
Like it’s been said a million times, coaches and players don’t tank, front offices do. We’ve had a damn losing culture for 17 years in this franchise and they were always trying to not tank. Guess what? The losing culture happened anyway, because there was bad talent, bad management, bad decisions made to win now and “try to build a winning culture”. How much of a winning culture did those amazing stretches between 23 and 39 wins from 2001 to 2010 create?
Teams build winning cultures with talent. If you think the Knicks have the talent to be a contending team, that’s fine. I couldn’t disagree more. Building a winning culture with less than the necessary talent to contend is capping yourself at today’s Wizards level.
KP started super hot and has been steadily dropping. If he keeps the .590 ts% with decent defense, yes, he’s a very good player, but we’ve seen this movie in the last year’s and he always dropped in terms of efficiency. He’s been averaging a .500 ts% in the last few games.
If you ask me if I’d rather have the Sixers roster or the Knicks roster now, I would say Sixers without a doubt, and I wouldn’t even care about losing on those amazing last 3 seasons with the Knicks that were so fun and enjoyable to watch!
Talent will always trump “building a winning culture”. This teams needs a lot more talent especially if KP’s gonna just be Melo who blocks shots.
San Antonio tanked to get Duncan and then won 5 championships.
People who advocate the “winning culture leads to championships” idea are like the underpants gnomes from South Park.
Step 1: Build winning culture
Step 2: ??
Step 3: Profit
What is Step 2? We don’t have championship-caliber players and we don’t have cap space to sign any. Even if we build the most splendiferous culture in the league and everyone wants to play here, we have no money to sign them.
I get that it sucks to lose. I wish the NBA didn’t incentive teams to race for the bottom. But it does. Winning 38 games and then hoping something good happens is not a strategy. This team needs talent.
We are not out tanking the top 5 teams so even with a hard tank and some luck we are probably bottoming out at around the 6-9 worst record. That would be with shutting down KP for long periods and benching our young players if they start to play well. So we would be sacrificing an entire year of KP’s development putting Frank and Baker and Dotson in poor situations just to move from the 12-14 pick to the 6-9 pick.
Not worth it. We need to use KP and hope he can grow and figure out what to do when the hard double comes, we need to keep putting Frank in situations that matter, we need to play competitive basketball.
I’d love to get a top 5 talent but I also understand that you can draft a good player anywhere in the draft. Donovan Mitchell went 13th, Dennis Smith Jr went 9th, John Collins went like 17th, we got Ntilikina 8th, Paul George went 10th, Steph Klay and Draymond went 8th, 11th, and 35th, Jimmy Butler went 30th, Giannis went 15th in a terrible draft, and the list goes on. Also, we already have the 3rd pick in the 2011 draft, the 4th pick in the 2015 draft, and the 8th pick in the 2017 draft. There’s a lot of talent on this team. Even Doug McDermott went 14th in 2014. You just have to understand the type of talent you’re looking for. If we can get Mikal Bridges that would be nice. Hamidou Diallo would be a good pick. Kevin Knox would be a homerun.
Bottom line I don’t have a problem with the current strategy. The Knicks are looking at their roster and saying “we can build a long term winner with KP, Ntilikina, Kanter, and TH2.” I don’t think that’s a bad bet to make, and I think auxiliary pieces like McDermott, Hernangomez, Baker, and Dotson make that group look even better. And then we have 3 picks in the 2018 draft, and a coach who is running a good system on both ends of the floor.
I think we should use Noah against some of the legitimately big and strong Cs. Guys like Kanter/Hernangomez are not that tall and they play shorter than they are because they aren’t long or especially good jumpers. It’s unlikely we’ll be able to trade Noah even if he’s productive in limited minutes, but there’s no chance at all if no one gets to see him play. I think he can help the team and give us at least some small hope someone will be interested at the deadline or in the summer.
@Chrisko-Easy answer, but too easy. Then develop, utilize and showcase Noah’s talents for another trading partner. Or for the team he is currently on, the NYKs. Those who say chain him to the bench create a self-fulfilling prophecy of dead space on our roster and cap. The challenge facing every NBA front office is developing a team in the face of the ongoing calculus of roster space and cap space.
I don’t think we are ever going to have a consensus on tanking. I think with the roster we have we are in too deep with the young guys we have now to go full blown tank (i.e. let them build chemistry, get wins, push for a low playoff seed and keep building on that). If it were the case we have a few key injuries, then you look at a bit of a stealth tank. I like what the team is doing (bar the odd frustrating loss, but that’s probably to be expected), so I am somewhat content with the strategy this season, but still would obviously like to see some improvement. Given what we have seen so far this season, we aren’t even close to being a top 5 lottery team.
Someone mentioned the Spurs before and I don’t think they are the right example when you talk about tanking. That was more of a stealth tank after David Robinson went down in 97. If we are talking full blown The Process, multi year tank, I don’t think we have anyone really be successful yet, but time will tell on that front pending what Philly do I guess.
+ 1 bitcoin
There is a difference between saying we are trying to win now and saying we are going to trade away young players and picks to win now with old players.
We used to do the latter.
Right now we are trying to improve the team and win now but WITHOUT sacrificing the future. We are still trying to accumulate picks and younger players with upside. The only difference between what we are doing now and what some are advocating is that we are playing the players that deserve to play based on merit instead of just all out tanking. We are also not handing over good older players for nothing in trades just because they may not be on the same timeline as Frank and KP.
Frank will start playing more minutes when he’s ready for more minutes and earns the starting spot. Same for Dotson, Willy, Baker etc… If they earn it in practice, they’ll get the minutes.
If at some point we are basically eliminated from the playoff chase, then perhaps a more thorough tank will take place and the players that deserve minutes will understand it go along with it.
If someone makes a serious offer for Lee or O’Quinn now, I’m sure we’ll consider it. It won’t be to tank even faster. Hopefully the days of losing trades are over.
Even if Noah played decently, I can’t see anyone wanting him. He’s 32, a perpetual injury risk, and has a TS% under 50% in each of the 3 seasons before this one. Even a team looking to dump a bad salary of their own — Deng, Parsons, Turner, Mozgov, Mahinmi — are getting some small value from those players.
Our only chance to move him might be for a bad player who makes less AAV for a longer period. Someone like Waiters or Gorgui Dieng.
If KP went down, we’d probably lose enough games to get into the top few picks where getting a legitimate all-star is more probable. But we aren’t going to sit KP just to lose more games. That would be idiotic. We also aren’t going to diminish the value of players that we could conceivably want to trade later by burying them on the bench just so we lose an extra few games and get a few extra ping pong balls that don’t guarantee a higher pick or increase the probability that the better pick (if we should get it) will actually lead to a better player much of the time.
How the hell is this such a different regime? Steve Mills has been with the Knicks for what now, at least 10 years?
Yeah he still hasn’t traded a first rounder away (and I hope he never does) but that’s a really damn low standard. They’re saying the same things other front offices said, let’s compete, let’s turn this around, let’s develop guys, let’s change the culture, etc.
I really wish I was as optimistic as you guys but until it happens, all the Perry / Mills talk is PR bs for me and I have zero trust they’ll be able to do this magical rebuild with weak talent, middling picks and “finding value in smart deals”. So far they have overpaid Hardaway, got “promising guys in smart deals” like Beasley, Baker, Sessions or Jack and traded Melo for a decent to good haul, and that’s it.
There are reasons to still be excited about this season with the younger guys, but if KP doesn’t take a serious leap for the entire season, and not just 15 games in October and November, I can’t see this working at all.
You guys say tanking won’t work at all because there are no examples of success with full blown tanking. I would really like to see what’s your examples of teams that were built without already having a super mega star then, which the Knicks dont have.
a good part of this blog is dissecting the mechanics and details (in terms of wins/losses and player performance) of the nba and knicks in particular…
it’s hard to tell though sometimes if most of the regular posters here are enjoying the season to date…
which, with a 13 and 13 record – there’s not a lot too get too overly hyped about…unless of course the absence of all the “other” baggage the knicks used to carry around makes you smile…
personally though – year to date – this has been one of my favorite periods of knick basketball since – linsanity…
with the exception of beasely and sessions – i’m pretty happy for the players and team as a whole to “figure things out” and try to become more consistent in their play…lance is still a necessary evil at times, but, hopefully his time out on the court will diminish…
i love watching our offense start with three passes (go hoosiers)…watch kanter trying to scoop up every offensive rebound, KOQ making deft passes under the rim to a cutting mcbuckets (the rest of the team needs to start looking for him a lot more when he cuts)…kp being the voice for the knicks (lee is just way too weird and honest to be given the mic to often)…
last night was a new level of cool watching frank and ron work together on defense…the 2018 playoffs and then draft are a long ways away…hopefully they’ll be more nights of cheer than jeer in between now and then…
I think the obvious answer is that tanking isn’t black and white. Were the Sixers right to take Embiid with his injury history? Well, he’s dominant when healthy and his year out afforded them another high pick. Did the Spurs “tank” after Robinson’s injury, or were they just not very good without him? There hasn’t been anything like ‘The Process’ thus far, so who knows how that will go, but really weren’t they just taking the BPAs with Embiid and Simmons? I think these teams all want to win, even though we disagree about their player choices (Jack, Sessions, Beasley, etc.)
We need a guard that can hit the ground running. Detroit has a Reggie Jackson, Avery Bradley, Lance Galloway and Ish Smith. They need bigs. We have a plethora of them. Also, Bradley will not re-sign there to take a back up role to Reggie unless they over pay him of course. Perry should call Stan ASAP and tell him that we can help stop his 6 game loosing streak.
I wouldn’t mind Frank hanging out with a pro like Avery for a few years.
I absolutely love Avery Bradley, but he’s not really a point guard, either, and I don’t like losing Willy for a guy who will be a free agent next year.
Avery can run the pick and roll, hit the three, get out on the brake and attack the rim. Defensively, he’s a stud. Perfect fit with all our guards. He’s only 27 years old. We can carefully monitor and asses if he’s a fit with KP; if deserved, hand him a two year $20M -$25M extension; and oh, lastly, when will this blog begin to accept that Willy has peaked? Can someone name one thing that Willy truly excels at?
I think the argument for the anti-tank for the right now is not so much it doesn’t work, but rather do we really need to bottom out to the extent we are picking top 3 with the core we have? Given we are a 1/3 of the way through the season, it’s probably too hard to tell, but from what we have seen, it’s going to take gutting the vets and a KP injury for that to happen, which may not potentially be worth it. We have never seen a tank like Philly’s before, so we really only have them to go off. Maybe the Cavs post LeBron to Miami, however they got pretty lucky with the lottery. Even the Warriors didn’t go full process. They had a about 8 draft picks between 2009 and 2012, and none were top 5 picks (I think Epke Udoh was like no. 6), so they are probably more a model of hoarding picks to rebuild as opposed to full blown tanking for top picks.
I agree man, I’m not proposing gutting the entire roster and processing for 4 years. Trading Lee and O’Quinn and going younger is what I’d do, never shutting KP out or anything.
I think trading those 2 plus giving extra minutes to Dotson, Ntilikina and Hernangomez will be a net loss in the year and will get us a better pick, whatever asset comes from the trades and experience for the younger guys.
I just dont see why the hell are Jack, Beasley, Lee being featured as big parts of a team that with them probably is not good enough to even reach the playoffs. I don’t see the point in chasing 5 more wins by playing veterans when it still lacks the talent to build properly.
Remember, Phil came here to change the culture too. 11 rings, Zen master, system basketball, brilliant motivator, etc.
As Bruno keeps saying, this franchise has been chasing the 8th seed for 16 years now. Gotta win, gotta win, can’t rebuild in New York, play winning basketball, get that winning culture. It has never worked. Regime after regime, trying and failing with this same tired playbook. How many times does it have to happen to us before we stop saying, “yeah but THIS time chasing the 8th seed is sure to be different.”
I’d be fine with just a Lee trade honestly. Willy would maybe give as much production as KOQ and Lance is a negative so he’s fine for our lottery hopes.
willy is absolutely crushing it with his hair game…
Exactly. I don’t want to sit Zing for 50 games with a phantom injury. That would definitely stunt his development. If he’s healthy, play him. If he’s banged up, sit him for a few extra games to make sure he’s feeling great. Same with THJ and anyone else who gets injured.
If we get a trade offer for Lee and KOQ for 90% of their value, take it. Don’t hold out for 100 cents on the dollar. Lee’s value is only going to decline over time and he’s going to be old by the time we’re good. KOQ’s value is going to be zero as of June. Give their minutes to Dotson and Willy and develop those guys instead of having them rot on the bench.
Start playing Frank 25-30 mpg even if he makes mistakes. If we get a decent offer for Kanter, take it. Free up cap space for 2018, one of the great free agent buyer’s markets in recent history.
Little moves like this are all we need. Just prioritize the long-term future and the tank will take care of itself.
here’s a link to willy’s numbers: http://insider.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2999409/willy-hernangomez
seems the best thing which can be said of willy is that he had a decent rookie year…and, he’s only 23 and 6’11″…
This is the first season in a long time that the knicks have something to build on. They’re young, play hard and play as a team.
The last time they had something resembling this, they traded it away for Melo. That’s exact what the knicks should NOT do – trade away their future for a “superstar”.
That being said, they have tradable assets that can enhance their future. There’s a logjam at center. Package KOQ or Willy for a good PG. Avery Bradley, Fultz.
The knicks are an all-star PG from being the three or four seed in the East.
Because I’m obsessed with making a trade with New Orleans, how about:
2019 1st round pick
The Pelicans get the wing shooter they desperately need. The Knicks get the pick and save $16m in space in 2019.
. . . . once the knicks are a three or four seed and look like a well run organization, they become a perfect landing place for an elite player that wants our of his current situation and thinks they can put the knicks over the top. Happens all the time.
@43. Spot on. We’re out of phase one and just getting into phase two. During next year or two, we should be trying to win 45 games while growing KP to be a top 3 player in this league. Avery Bradley type two way combo guard and a healthy Timmy puts close to that 45 win mark this year & next.
I’d really like to get a 2018 first rounder for Lee, but yeah, if you could dump Noah and still get a 2019 first rounder, you can’t pass that up.
I’m asking this very honestly and really not trying to be rude: do you really see this roster we’re watching now ever being a 3rd or 4th seed in the east? With Porzingis + Timmy + Kanter as the main core?
Also, Perry should offer extension to Dougie before we lose him for nothing; 3yr $18M deal. Him & Lance are solid role players off the bench on a championship caliber team.
I would agree Brian, but the 2019 pick of the Pelicans has some sneaky high upside with the whole unresolved Cousins situation. Right now their 2018 pick looks to be in the 13th to 16th range, but if Cousins gets pissed and wants to leave, or makes it clear he’s not re-signing, the Pelicans might trade him and the 2019 pick could be better still.
@46, we’re one player away; post LBJ eastern conference is set up as follows:
5-8 = anyone’s guess.
It’s been discussed ad nauseum.
Some may think these things don’t matter but they do.
Some may think they matter less than getting the “potential” for a better pick, but that’s only true near the top of the draft or when the win total difference is significant.
1. Jack and Sessions are here to teach Frank. Jack is playing ahead of Frank because he’s still the better PG. Playing 36 minutes in a very heavy schedule is pretty tough on a kid. Frank has also had some injuries. So they are easing him in. I don’t know the plan, but he could take the starting job at any point if he earns it.
2. Lee is playing because he’s the best 2-way wing player we have and playing him has done wonders for his trade value.
3. Don’t ask me why Beasley is playing. I didn’t like the signing (even at the low price) and argued with everyone that was saying his stats indicated he was an improved player. He’s a naturally talented player, can score in a variety of ways, but he’s often totally lost.
This is why we are trying to win.
1. Playing in meaningful games struggling for a playoff spot will enhance the development of our young players. They will learn to come in focused and ready every night. Most impotently they will learn how to deal with pressure late in meaningful games so they can close instead of tightening up and finding a way to lose.
2. If they should manage to get the 8th seed, they will experience the differences of playoff basketball and learn from it. They’ll get their first taste of trying to play under extreme pressure with their nerves firing on all cylinders. This is a major step in player development if you want to contend in a few years. They will have to go through it. Sooner is better.
3. Winning makes players (like KP) happy. They tend to want to stay around. It will also make us more attractive to FAs and players requesting trades in the future.
I know it’s been, and the reason for that is that people like me and others are just not convinced by your arguments that these things really do matter in the Knicks case.
I don’t care about learning to play under pressure, getting playoff experience or keeping KP happy if the roster is not promising enough to contend one day, that’s very simple. Being as my assertion of the roster is “not promising enough”, I value higher a high draft pick than the factors you mention every time.
That’s the point. It’s not about which strategy is better in a vacuum, it’s whether you believe the Knicks are a good enough, promising enough roster to go all in on competing now or that it can, even without cap space, without high picks and without a reliable great front office find talent elsewhere.
I love your strategy, I really do, but for the Milwaukee Bucks or the Philadelphia 76ers.
Oakman. With all due respect, please clarify for me your seemingly contradictory posts: @26 you can’t imagine who would want Noah, then @42 you propose a trade with NO where we give Noah and Lee in exchange for 3 serviceable players and a 2019 first rounder and save 16 ‘mm in cap space. I mean, I love it but it seems to me before that can happen, Noah needs to be showcased and play for more than just a few ticks.
So am I reading this right? All the Knicks need to do is trade OQ and Willy for Avery Bradley. And then sit back and watch the team become a top 4 team in the east in the next year or two?
I really hope that the Knicks can just make one trade and become that good (and that McD will willingly take a 3 year/$18m extension…I’d happily sign him to that right now, but I don’t think his agent will). But, I doubt it.
Hey, let’s see what happens next month with all the road games. If the team holds its own, that’ll be great, and maybe they are one guy away. But I think it is more like 2 real good young players before having the foundation to maybe be a very good team. Yes, another PG would be nice, but the team also very badly needs a good young wing who can defend the bigger threes in the league, rebound, and score a little.
Yes – Absolutely.
The team, as currently built with an all-star PG puts them in contention for the three or four seed .
– an upgraded wing that’s a lockdown defender and deadly from 3pt range, the knicks may be able to compete for the Eastern Conference title.
@ 38 – even Willy’s hair game has taken a step back. Last year when I was watching a game my wife saw Willieand said “who’s that!” Very excitedly bc she thought he was cute. When she saw him this year she said “ewww! What did he do to his hair?”
Which means almost nothing, since they can’t get an all-star PG because of the team that they have currently put together, which is too good to draft an all-star PG and too filled with poor contracts to sign one (if one even wanted to sign here).
For your entertainment, a Cavs fan site has proposed a trade for Lee: for a “future first,” Shumpert, and Miami’s 2019 second rounder.
I wonder which future first?
Exactly. Yeah, if you put an all star PG and a defensive wing that’s deadly from 3 on most teams they’ll become good. Add John Wall and Otto Porter Jr. to the Knicks that they’ll be the 3rd seed, I agree, which is the same as saying they’re really not even remotely close to the 3rd seed.
Lee for Rubio? I guess he’s not an all-star, though.
FWIW, that’s not going to get the Knicks to a top 4 seed, but he might be available.
I like the earlier NO trade proposal. That team’s 2019 first rounder could be very interesting. How bad to they want to unload Asik? Not bad enough to take back Noah, I’m guessing.
I would think very desperate.
Asik has played the most minutes out of the three this year with 57. Ajinca is out for the season and Hill won’t be back until at least February. It would be a complete dump of 3 useless bad contracts with the pick for Lee and dumping Noah.
I hesitate to bring up he who shall not be named, but Clint Capela is starting to remind me of prime Tyson Chandler.
I guess I’m a little confused as to what the underlying arguments are here.
If trading Lee and KOQ entails “tanking,” then I guess I’m pro-tank because trading those two just seems so logical that I don’t even think I have to go into all the reasons why.
Beyond that, I don’t think anyone is advocating for Hornacek to throw games or something. I’d probably waive Sessions and see what a random G League standout could do, and maybe see if there’s any interest in Jack. Aside from those minor things though, I would just want to see what the guys who have a chance of being on the next good Knicks team can do. If they can still make the playoffs, it’s probably a decent enough core that a lower pick isn’t worth getting too upset about. If they can’t, then we need a higher pick and we’ll get one.
Is there anyone here who actually disagrees with any of that?
At this moment Moore and Holiday are 30-39 for 71 points and the pelicans are trailing the rockets
He’s looking like prime Chandler / poor man’s prime Amare for real.
Harden was so insane in the end of the game, he took over completely. Ended with 26 points and 17 assists on 3 turnovers and 6 (!) steals.
Meanwhile Thunder lose at home to the Hornets………
I guess Chris Paul really is less impactful than Melo.
Yeah, totally. If they get rid of the vets and still win, that’s awesome. That is a good sign for the future. By the way, why isn’t some team out there trading a first for Lee? It’s maddening.
@53, spot on. If healthy, Avery Bradley type two-way combo guard is exactly what we need to get to ~45 wins and go to a 6 or 7 game series with a 3 seed like Toronto. That experience is necessary for KP, THjr, Kanters growth.
@ 56, you’re 100% right! All-star point guards don’t grow on trees. That’s phase three. Till then we have to do smaller but smart moves to land a solid guard & balance this roster. Have to put ourselves in a position so that we can get lucky. Timing is everything.
It’s time we come to grip with who Willy really is & use him as additional bait in a package with KOQ, whom we’ll just end up losing because he’ll opt out and we won’t pay.
Lee should be packaged next year in February. No rush with him unless we are approached with an offer we can’t refuse.
Three things that deserve mention: Melo is falling off the cliff, Malik Monk is terrible, and Kanter is shooting 92% from the line.
Our definitions of serviceable must be very different. These are the 3 Pelican players I included in the trade, along with their minutes played:
Hill – 0
Asik – 57
Ajinca – 0
Hill is below average. Asik and Ajinca are awful. All 3 are grossly overpaid. So trading them for Noah is a sign that he has no value.
I feel like if you think the current players can’t form a strong enough core to compete a few years down the line then really, the argument should be to sell on everybody. What can we get for Frank? What can we get for KP? Probably stuck with THj, but we could probably shift Dougie. Maybe Kanter, if we sell relatively low. Willy can sweeten the pot. Hell, if we’re really blowing it up everybody useful can probably bring back something, we’ll just take all the bad and long contracts we can.
We’re too good to tank properly just by shifting Lee and KOQ. There are a bunch of teams much worse than us.
Shutting down the rest artificially is a bad idea for development and absent that we aren’t getting a high pick. Most teams go through this space of ‘are our young guys gonna develop into champs?’ There are no sure things. We can hope it goes well (and it probably won’t, it doesn’t for most everybody, almost all the time) or we can blow it up completely and sell high on the promise of the young guys we have in hopes of better young guys down the line. Running a minor tank for the 10th or 12th pick doesn’t move the needle at all.
Why trade for an Avery Bradley type guard when both Frank and Ron look best suited to that role (at least for the moment). If the Knicks are going to trade for a point I think it’d be best to go with a genuine playmaker who could get KP easier looks- Rubio would be a better fit than Bradley IMO and more likely to be available if Utah really does like Mitchell at the point.
I don’t think anyone would argue that moving from 12th to 10th moves the needle in a relevant way.
The question to me is: what moves the needle more, 4 more wins or 2-3 spots in the lottery? 8 more wins or 6 spots in the lottery? And in that comparison, I think the lottery spots are more valuable than the wins in the Knicks particular case.
If we’re talking about the 5th seed or tanking, or course I’ll take the 5th seed, because we ain’t getting there without major improvements from the guys who need to improve. But if going from 12th to 10th is meaningless, are those 2 wins really more meaningful? What’s more meaningful and where do we draw the line?
I don’t think there’s an obvious answer there. Learning to play tough on the road, having a good two-way guy to learn from, there’s some advantage there. There’s advantage in picking higher, but that low in the draft a position or two isn’t necessarily a game changer. If we get a really good deal for Lee sure, go for it. But we likely won’t get an obvious win. I don’t think making a mediocre deal for Lee just to try to lose a few games is an obvious step forward. Feels like treading water, minor effects either way.
If they can get a first for Lee, they should take it. It is a good value, it make the team more reliant on the players that will be part of the next theoretically good Knicks team and it allows the Knicks to avoid the last two years of Lee’s contract.
If they can’t get a first for Lee, well, then that’s lame. But sure, if they can’t get a first for him, hold on to him, but damn, how can they not get a first for him?
In the alternative, if some team is offering a first and they’re not taking it? They should stop doing that.
@68-Oakman: then how do you think NO would give us a number 1 pick?