Knicks Morning News (2017.12.12)

  • [NY Newsday] Ron Baker responds when Jeff Hornacek calls his number
    (Monday, December 11, 2017 7:52:53 PM)

    Ron Baker couldn’t help but smile as he stood in front of his locker Sunday night. The Knicks guard was tired and sore and happier than he’s been in a long time.

  • [SNY Knicks] Amar’e Stoudemire to light a ceremonial menorah at MSG Tuesday
    (Monday, December 11, 2017 5:30:20 PM)

    Former Knicks C Amar’e Stoudemire will be the man to light a cermonial menorah at Madison Square Garden before Tuesday’s contest against the Lakers

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis, Knicks front office says tanking isn’t their mindset
    (Monday, December 11, 2017 1:33:02 PM)

    Knicks star F Kristaps Porzingis doesn’t want to hear anything about his team tanking.

  • [NYDN] Lonzo still getting no help from LaVar as Balls roll into Garden
    (Monday, December 11, 2017 8:43:23 AM)

    LaVar Ball is to the NBA what the Kardashians are to television.

  • [NYPost] Lonzo Ball talks the ‘greats,’ sets a high bar for his Garden debut
    (Monday, December 11, 2017 5:59:15 PM)

    Lakers rookie Lonzo Ball traveled to New York one time before this weekend, for the NBA draft. One element stood out. “People are very strong and passionate out here,” Ball said about the attitudes of the typical New Yorker who will argue to the death over intricate philosophical points; like who stunk more, the Washington…

  • [NYPost] Is this the revival of Knicks’ fallen point guard?
    (Monday, December 11, 2017 2:05:07 PM)

    Knicks point guard Jarrett Jack used flawless logic while praising teammate Ron Baker. “You never know what may come your way, but you’ve got to be ready for it,” Jack said. “If you’re not ready for the opportunity that comes your way, what’s the point of the opportunity?” The point was Baker was ready. So…

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis feels for Lonzo Ball
    (Monday, December 11, 2017 12:38:25 PM)

    Blood is thicker than water. And a lot trickier to navigate at times. Earlier this season Kristaps Porzingis found himself in the middle of a firestorm caused by his brother Janis, who in a European interview, claimed if the Knicks did not make the star happy, he could bolt. “You cannot upset him much or…

  • 64 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.12.12)”

    This doesn’t bode well for a Perry-led front office being realistic about when it’s time to trade off the vets. Of course Hill is pretty gullible for thinkings this year’s Kings team could compete for anything at all, but “competing” for the sake of “competing” seems to be something Perry takes very seriously.

    Courtney Lee will be a Knick for the duration of his contract.

    This does lend to the theory that Perry really thought that the Kings could compete this season, which isn’t a good look for him.

    OKC is basically a more talented version of last year’s Knicks with a worse version of Melo. It’s morbidly fascinating to watch on a quarter-by-quarter basis.

    I really just hope Perry doesn’t make a dumb win-now move when we’re 5 games under .500 at the trade deadline.

    And btw George Hill – a very large part of the reason the Kings are bad is because you are playing terribly. And maybe because Dave Joerger is just not a very good coach.

    From last night:

    If they can get a first for Lee, they should take it. It is a good value, it make the team more reliant on the players that will be part of the next theoretically good Knicks team and it allows the Knicks to avoid the last two years of Lee’s contract.

    Maybe it would help on the contract front, really depends what we have to take back to match. Any team that’d give a 1st for Lee at this point is probably picking mid-20s at best, which isn’t nothing but isn’t spectacular. More reliant, I can see that. I can also see Lee being an effective mentor ect. I have no ideas what the effective numbers are re: pt without good vet mentor vs. less pt without. Who are the best teams at development? What do they do?

    Any Lee trade seems very dependant on the specifics, “get a first back” isn’t enough on it’s own to make it a smart move. And I haven’t seen anyone propose a trade that makes sense for the other team yet.


    I think the whole mentor idea is one of those things that only people in the locker room can really know, I don’t think we’ll ever be able to clearly tell what happens. Some players develop into stars in the worst possible situations, others fail in the best ones, some veterans seem to have positive impact in a team then do nothing at all for the next team they play for.

    Every player deals with everything related to mentorship, teammates etc in a different way and it’s just something I don’t think we should take into consideration that much, unless it’s an extreme case either way (think Spurs or the Jail Blazers).

    The Grizzlies for example had a winning culture and a stable veteran core for so many years and seemingly have not developed a single good role player or young prospect in all those years, while the Spurs, the Celtics or even the Raptors seem to find a new one every year.

    I find it hard to believe Perry promised the vets that Sacramento would compete for a playoff spot. At that time, everyone thought the west was so loaded a couple of very good teams were going to miss the playoffs. The Kings weren’t even in the conversation. More likely is that he promised they would get plenty of playing time to play, compete, and mentor the young players in a situation similar to NY now. The vets were given inflated short term salaries (including Hill who probably has a few good years left). That’s telling you why they were brought in. I’m not sure I would have picked Randolph for the job, but so be it. They took the short term inflated salaries and now are finding out the team is not very good.

    The Kings have a few good young players that are going to learn from the veterans in the same way Frank is learning from Jack. In 2 years the vets will be gone and the kids will be further along than they would otherwise be. In the mean time, they’ll keep adding young pieces. It’s on new management to add the right long term pieces.

    Ok, everyone has staked out their ground re: the tanking concept.

    Here’s my question to the side who feels a couple of spots in the lottery doesn’t matter (I’m assuming everyone sees the value in the difference between picking at 10 or 5, so forget that).

    Would you rather have 3 or 4 more wins and pick 10th, or 3 or 4 more losses and pick 7th?

    I really just hope Perry doesn’t make a dumb win-now move when we’re 5 games under .500 at the trade deadline.

    IMO, there’s almost no chance he’ll trade away a pick or young player for an older player that will help now. I could see him making a move that benefits the team now as long as it does not impact the long term negatively.

    I think Harry Giles is due to come back in January, so they could be an interesting team next year with another high lottery pick and another year of development from Fox, Hield, WCS and Skal.

    I read an article yesterday about how if Houston can dump Anderson, LeBron becomes a real possibility for Houston next season. If that happens, just skip the season and let them and G State play a 7 game series.

    I always thought Houston was the most likely landing spot for LeBron, full Banana Boat reunion with Melo and Wade signing cheap contracts.

    Would take a lot of back flips by Morey, but probably doable.

    Would you rather have 3 or 4 more wins and pick 10th, or 3 or 4 more losses and pick 7th?

    You have to frame the question properly.

    The question is would you rather have a few extra ping pong balls that increase your chances of getting the 7th pick (no guarantee you won’t drop) and then hope you actually select the better player if you do or would you rather compete for a playoff spot and possibly even get it (and the experience/development that comes with it) and hold off on tanking until it becomes clear you won’t make it. You can still tank. It will just be after you know you can’t make the playoffs.

    No, you want me to frame the question with a bunch of caveats that suit your position. I just want to ask a simple question. My answer is I’d rather have the 7th pick than the 10th pick, even if I lose 3 or 4 more games and even if it costs me cultural development and whatever other if you want to throw in there.

    melo is not opting out of 28 mil to be their 7th option.

    Ok, everyone has staked out their ground re: the tanking concept.

    Here’s my question to the side who feels a couple of spots in the lottery doesn’t matter (I’m assuming everyone sees the value in the difference between picking at 10 or 5, so forget that).

    Would you rather have 3 or 4 more wins and pick 10th, or 3 or 4 more losses and pick 7th?

    Unless you’re at the bottom of the standing with a few weeks left, the concept of intentionally losing games is grotesque.

    “Ok, everyone has staked out their ground re: the tanking concept.

    Here’s my question to the side who feels a couple of spots in the lottery doesn’t matter (I’m assuming everyone sees the value in the difference between picking at 10 or 5, so forget that).

    Would you rather have 3 or 4 more wins and pick 10th, or 3 or 4 more losses and pick 7th?”

    pointless question.

    I’m still very curious as to why the hell do you guys read “would you rather the team you root for but don’t play for / own / manage lose 4 more games and get a better pick” as “let’s force Porzingis to throw the ball out of bounds every time he touches it!”

    If the discussion only happens on this level, then yeah, it’s really pointless.

    man the rockets look good. obv it would take some luck to beat the warriors in a best of 7. but morey did such a nice job making sure they had depth and diversity once they had to gut their bench to get cp3. guys like tucker and mbah a moute are especially valuable when two of your rotation players are Gordon and Anderson.

    Now you have the Spurs with the 6th best SRS in the league getting back an MVP level player. they’ve also had mainly positive surprises this year. moderate but notable Kyle Anderson improvement. LMA improving his shot distribution just enough to matter. Gasol on pace for a top ten all time year for a 37 year old — very strong argument he’s been the better Gasol Ytd. Rudy Gay being productive. the fat middle of the West has disappointed either bc of injuries (Denver, clips) or just not being very good so far (okc, minny), but the competition at the top for the warriors will be better than hoped.

    odd fact: David west right now has the highest bpm of all time for a 37 plus player. It’s silly bc he’s playing 10 min a game. But if you want hope we squeak out some productive use for Noah around 15 min per game, there you go. I know if I was coach and trying to win games he’d at least be in the rotation today. Playing lineups with Beasley/lance or Beasley/MAC and three guards is the unsweet spot of neither tanking for youth nor trying to win like a grown up.

    “…………the concept of intentionally losing…………”

    Note to self: Ignore hulahoop

    @ ZMan – all things being equal if the team is not going to make the playoffs then obviously less wins is good but we are not there yet. That is the point. Its about trying to actually make the playoffs and see how the team performs in that situation. I mean we could end up being the 7th seed and face the Cavs, whom we’ve beaten once and almost beat a second time. What if we get that 7th seed and go toe to toe with them for 7 games? What if we actually beat them, end up in the second round against the 5th seed and find ourselves possibly going to the ECF? I mean, it is not that uncommon for a lower seed team to pull off an upset in the first round and find themselves with a clear path to the ECF. If that happened, then wouldn’t sneaking into the playoffs be totally worth it? Both from a fan perspective and team growth perspective?

    I will get laughed off this board and people will claim I said this team can make the ECF. But the point I’m making is we honestly will never know what we have with KP, Frank, Hardaway, Kanter, etc…unless we actually put them in competitive situations to see how they handle it? IF the above scenario happened, wouldn’t that convince us that we got a core that could compete? Or even if they just got to the first round and took it to 6 and made it respectable against Boston or Cleveland…wouldn’t that show us that this is a team worth investing in? Cause the way I see it, if we don’t make hte playoffs, then we don’t really know if KP is the type we can build around, so higher lottery picks would obviously be what we want but then we’re just hoping for another lottery ticket to take us to the next level bc KP can’t.

    I’d rather we make the playoffs and have it prove to me that KP is indeed a franchise player. That to me is more valuable than a higher lottery pick.

    OF course the worst place would be the barely make the playoffs.

    I watched the 2nd half of the Rockets-Pelicans game last night, and while Harden and Paul did their things, I was so impressed with Capela. I compared him to Tyson Chandler last night, but he may actually be better, as he has a more polished offensive game. Last night, he was frustrating the crap out of Boogie, and there were never any double teams.

    Of course, having Paul and Harden throwing perfect lobs doesn’t hurt your shooting % any, but I think he’s an under the radar star for the Rockets.

    Capela’s a perfect complementary star. He can’t really be a leading offensive option, but he’s great at what he does and he anchors the defense now at a level he wasn’t doing previously. Great player and a great pick by Morey.

    Re: Tanking – I don’t care. Give the young guys burn and see where the chips fall. Only thing that’s bothered me is the lack of minutes for Willy, but he also hasn’t impressed much in the minutes he has received. It’s a situation where I think both he and the coaching staff need to do better.


    Yeah, I’m also ready to call him a star. All he does is dunk etc etc but he’s so athletic, so smart and understands the timings and how to set screens so well that his impact is massive. That’s not even considering the fact that he’s a pretty damn good defensive player. He’s rolling to the basket like prime Amare on the D’Antoni Suns.

    is anthony davis a franchise player? i’m pretty sure he is…. and he hasn’t had any playoff success…. cp3 hasn’t had much success either….

    i think we all want success on this team but most want it to be sustainable…. the only issue i have with making the playoffs this year is because we’re more than likely going to be first rd fodder and half of the players probably won’t be around next year let alone two…. and we desperately need to add to the core we currently have which is basically just kp and th2.. with the jury still out for frank n wily….

    2-18, I meant that it is irrelevant what we think. The bottom line is the Knicks are not in tank mode and will not be until at least after the all-star break unless KP gets badly hurt. They will continue to play to win by mixing vets and kids as Hornacek sees fit. Most of us would rather roll with the young players and take the L’s that come with that as an added bonus. But with this team, we may actually start winning more games if the young guys play more because most of our veterans are not good.

    If the question is: should we trade Lee and O’Quinn, that’s legit. But what difference does it makes how many wins we prefer?

    It’s just a form of reductio ad absurdum and/or slippery slope. I could be wrong, but I don’t think any of us on the pro “tanking” side have called for the team to intentionally lose/throw all their games or adopt a Sixers like multi-year nuke tank. I think that, with a good draft this offseason, the Knicks might have a good enough young core in place going forward, but we need at least 2 more good young talents.

    Having the 2018 pick as early as possible increases the chances of that, keeping the Chicago 2nd rounder, and trying to pick up another first rounder (and/or interesting young player, hopefully a PG or big three) in trade(s) involving Lee, OQ, LT.

    2for18, to answer your simple question, yes, I would take 3-4 more losses this season to improve from 10th to 7th in the lottery. That guarantees nothing, of course, but I’d still take the earlier pick with three less guys off the board when you choose.

    Re: Capela, he’s really good but it helps playing with Harden and Paul under D’Antoni.

    @27 OK, since that’s what we’re really talking about, let’s go with that. I’m of the thinking that Lee and O’Quinn should be traded now (and Kanter if possible, and bye bye Sessions and Jack) so their minutes can go to Dotson, Baker, Frank and Willy. It makes no sense to me to chase wins with vets when we’re so far from being a contender.
    I also don’t buy the winning culture/keep KP happy narratives.

    And how about Brian Cashman! Sure, Stanton is going to make about 30 mil a year, but he unloaded Castro and Headley, who, combined, make almost that. And they have plenty of cheap kids who can replace those 2.

    And how about Brian Cashman! Sure, Stanton is going to make about 30 mil a year, but he unloaded Castro and Headley, who, combined, make almost that. And they have plenty of cheap kids who can replace those 2.

    i can almost forgive him for breaking my heart and ditching steady and dependable joe…hopefully boone can do at least half as good a job with the bullpen (granted last year was a little rough in the blown saves department for the yanks)…

    so excited for tonight’s game…luke has the lakers playing with a lot of effort; and, even in their losses they tend to stick around til the end…

    The “tank vs not-tank” debate is really not very interesting. The Knicks are boxed in by their previous bad choices– they do not have a surplus of draft picks and they don’t have the kind of veterans that they can flip for anything of much value. There are not a ton of options available to the front office.

    The time to do a proper rebuild was several years ago, but Phil Jackson thought he could just triangle everything it up and win some more ringzz. He was wrong, and we’re stuck with the remnants of his poor roster-building strategy. We’re not good enough to really compete, and we’re not bad enough to get high lottery picks, so there’s not much to do except plod along, win 35 games a year, pick somewhere at the back end of the lottery and hope that some of the young guys develop. So far that’s a mixed bag– Porzingis has talent but it’s a question mark whether he is going to be a true franchise player, Willy has gone from exciting prospect to non-entity and Ntilikina is as enigmatic a prospect as you’ll see. We’re locked into the bad Noah contract and the Hardaway contract does not look so great either.

    Treading water is better than drowning, I guess, but that’s what we’re doing. Treading water.

    Yeah, the MMM instead of signing/trading him for picks/young players was a waste of 3-5 years. I’m trying to move past that since at least he’s gone and the team is now watchable.

    i think kp is for real.. the rebounding is starting to become a concern but the offense is developing very well since he’s making a concerted effort to score inside and he’s shown he can get consistent high quality looks on his own…

    the shot selection isn’t quite there yet but once more pieces fit around him i assume most of that will take care of itself….

    I’m still trying to gauge if bad shot selection for KP is the same as it is for everyone else. Him facing up and shooting over a 6’8-9 guy is pretty much an open jumper for him.

    Those crossovers need to stop tho.

    KP should be used more like Clint Capela with a 3 point shot, imho. He doesn’t pass, so he can’t initiate offense for the team. If you want to give him a couple isos a game for him to work on his faceup offense that’s fine since winning isn’t a priority, but Kristaps should focus on what he’s good at-finishing plays.

    KP should be used more like Clint Capela with a 3 point shot, imho.

    I hear you, but Capela has maybe the 2 best passers in the NBA setting him up. We’ve got (sigh) Jarrett Jack.

    Jack can’t pass to a cutting KP if KP is standing out on the perimeter holding the ball for 8 seconds before jacking up a mid range jump shot. Last season, playing with a bunch of garbage point guards, Kristaps took half his shots at the rim or behind the arc This season so far it’s about 40%.

    Capela is definitely helped to some degree by playing with Harden & CP3, but guys who can create finishing opportunities at the rim at a high rate should be very productive with any sort of adequate PG (granted, the Knicks may be one of the rare teams that doesn’t meet that requirement)

    i kind of like the high usage kp version as long as some of those bad habits don’t stay with him….. we just don’t have the playmakers to put him in easier scoring positions…. someone like dirk had nash and finley to start out his career and so it was easy for him to slide into a lower(than kp) usage role and gradually expand….

    what kp’s doing is the opposite … maybe out of necessity and maybe sort of extreme at his usage levels but i think it’s healthy overall…. it’s part of the process of discovering that specific move or situation where opponents can’t stop with a single person that’s going to get him to that next level…. it’s not that efficient now but i think eventually it will be….

    Sad to say but I’m all for the tank. KP seems like a guy where he has to be 100% physically to be a dominant player. His TS% over the last 11 games is .508 and he’s cratered after great starts in both prior seasons. Even with a better point guard to me he’s not a guy you can count on to be the best player on a championship-caliber team. Maybe he turns into that guy if his body develops but with at least 5 guys with very high ceilings (and maybe 6 or 7) I’d want as many ping pong ball as possible this year. KP’s not LBJ- he’s going to have to be surrounded by some really good players for the Knicks to make deep playoff runs and this draft may have multiple guys who’d fit the bill.

    JK – I think you are right about Phil but I don’t think its hopeless and that we’re just going to plod along.

    The fact is that KP is VERY YOUNG. He’s 22! He’s at least 3 years away from really being in the beginning of his prime. That’s when Lee, Noah and Lance will all be gone by then. Frank at that point will only be 22! Hardaway will be 28! Kanter will be 28! McDermott will be 27! Dotson will be 25 and Ron will be 26. Willie will be 25! We will have cap space that will open up in the next few years as KQ, Lee, Lance and finally Noah come off the books and we can fill in our holes through free agency AND we will have the draft and while we may not have a surplus of picks we do have a first and a second every year and we also do all ready have some eurostash projects. Plus a few extra second rounders here and there. All we need is for one of those to hit, even if its just a good starter/role player type who excels in that role but isn’t an all star and we’re in really good shape.

    Would you rather have 3 or 4 more wins and pick 10th, or 3 or 4 more losses and pick 7th?

    Pick 7th as the jump from 10 to 7 is pretty significant. But I don’t think we’re falling lower than 10th, maybe 11th. And if the choice is between the 10th pick and the young guys fighting to get into the playoffs I’ll take the later.

    By all means, take a good deal for Lee. I just don’t see any realistic deals out there, and I don’t think keeping Lee is hamstringing ourselves. If we’re a mess a few years from now blow it up and start over. It looks like we’ve been outplayed by the Sixers and the Celtics for the future bug their development isn’t set in stone either.
    In the meantime just hope that we develop. This is the doldrums of rebuilding, not the winter of our discontent.


    This drop is what bothers me for real. If KP was maintaining the performance at least close to the initial stretch of games then yes, I can see going all in for the playoffs. His overall stats are deceiving because of this massive drop lately. He’s going to need a lot of help and getting that help should always be the main focus.

    Lol, at tanking. We’re starting Jarrett Jack, while Lance Thomas and Michael Beasley are both play significant roles in our rotation. It would be hard to tank any harder without sitting part of our future or sending the trade value of O’Quinn and Courtney Lee into a nosedive. Both have played excellently so far and may be able to get us some pieces back at the deadline. After that we can go Young Guns blazing and probably end up with a pretty similar record anyway.

    @21, you’re 100% correct. Watching KP ball out vs KLove & Thompson and dumping 40 on them will do wonders for his growth and mental strength. He still gets razzled out there from time to time. Watching Kanter get ejected cause throws LBJ on his ass when he attacks the rim is priceless for this team of youngings to come together. We’re one two-way combo guard (i.e.Avery Bradlet type player) away from this being a realistic scenario.

    Have to put ourselves in winning position by building strong pieces. There will be opportunities to “steal” players for a variety of reasons. (ex: Ainge stole Kyrie last August. He said it himself that this type of move was part of his overall plan. he just never thought it woudl be Kyrie). One future probability is when GS doesn’t want to pay Thompson max money because they realize that Green is more valuable to Durant and Curry at 75% of the cost then we swoop him up for someone like Lee/Dougie/pick or Timmy and a pick.

    Our plan should be to get to 45 wins ASAP without giving up picks or taking in money past 2 seasons out. The reason I picked 45 is because its overall a good key performance indicator on KP, Timmy’s, Frank’s and Kanter’s player development, hustle and mental strength. Its important they all grow and become each others crutches. No one will get better by tanking. It becomes we losing so let me make sure I get mines mentality. Timmy began scratching the surface and playing with similar hunger/edge that his dad did before he got shelved. Hope he’s out there by himself somewhere putting up 1,500 jump shots a day in a hot & shitty gym.

    KP’s challenge is exactly that. He said it himself. He gets weaker and loses weight during season. In other words, he struggles to keep his weight up.
    Phil Jackson said that in his weird way too “he might be too tall for basketball” – so everyone understands that this is the exact challenge that comes with his body type. Same drop off happened in Milwaukee.
    Shutting him down and tanking prolongs the discovery process for another year. Everyone, including himself needs to know who he really is. Only way to find out is to push him to play meaningful games till he gets over his own hump.

    Sometimes I think you guys are the definition of Stockholm Syndrome.

    Let’s build around flawed stars, no cap space and mediocre picks but this time it’ll work because it’s a fresh front office and we’re so close to 45 wins! Except that Mills had a hand in everything bad that has happened for the Knicks in some time and the other guy built the currently 8-18 Sacramento Kings with his biggest signing complaining publicly about feeling slighted by him.

    Once again, I agree that going full tank process style is not for the Knicks now, but last year’s team was 14-12 26 games in, and we all know how it ended. There is young talent on this team, finally. Focus on its development, everything else needs to be secondary.

    Zinger’s net rating by month:

    Oct +4
    Nov +6
    Dec -5
    Jan -4
    Feb -9
    Mar -6

    I find his pattern very strange. Every season he starts scorching hot and then falls off a cliff in December. It can’t be fatigue this early in the season. And it’s not like he keeps getting worse as the year goes on.

    Doesn’t KP have anemia? This stamina issue could be related to that, so it could just be he should be a guy who’s minutes need to be limited. Is there a doctor in the house? Can this condition be overcome?

    @48 I’ve been whining about the management change to the extent that I became the unpopular Phil defender. I see no reason whatsoever that we should trust Mills. He’s been part of this organization for a long time and was also responsible for the Hardaway and Baker contracts. I wasn’t thrilled with the Perry signing either, but I backed off the criticism because he clearly won the Melo deal and there’s not much else to evaluate him off of as far as the Knicks go.

    No, you want me to frame the question with a bunch of caveats that suit your position.

    I don’t want to answer a question that has nothing to do with reality. I’d prefer to frame it in terms of the real word we operate in.

    This is why we can’t have nice things. KP is not regressing, teams have just adjusted to him. Over the first ten games teams weren’t sending double teams all that much and KP feasted. Now the double gets sent almost every time. KP needs to adjust. He will, this is a growing process. We can’t do much on the pnr since none of our PGs are any threat at all and the teams just stay with KP.

    KP will learn to recognize the double faster and once we get a PG that is even a minor threat to score then teams will have to be more honest and defend the ball on the pnr. When KP is on the floor the entire defense is tilted towards him, he will learn to handle the added pressure. It’s a natural part of becoming a go to scorer.

    As for whether or not we have the horses to one day compete for a championship it is too early to tell. No one would have guessed that the Warriors had a championship core in Curry’s fourth year, but all the pieces were there, and that was with half of their top 6 players being 29.

    Lets play out the string. See where we are come trade deadline, move Lee and O’Quinn if we are not in the playoff race or if we get a great offer, otherwise lets see how KP and Frank and Doug and Tim all handle the pressure of trying to make the playoffs.

    It’s hilarious to me that people could at the same time talk so excitedly about KP, a product of tanking, and his development and the grand impact he’ll have on the team and at the same time talk about how tanking is dumb.

    I think also anyone who makes some blanket statement that they are anti-tank is a hypocrite. Every team in the NBA is tanking right now because every team has some draft pick or some young prospect who they could trade to become a better team this season. They are choosing to be worse than they could be. They are choosing to lose more games. They are tankers. BURN THEM ON A STAKE! No wait, maybe they should die slowly, painfully, for dishonoring the sacred game of basketball.

    On the real, my point is the line you draw where it becomes “tanking” instead of rebuilding is arbitrary and IMHO when people draw that line, it’s for emotional reasons (they feel despair thinking about rooting for their team to lose) rather than any sort of logic. They may dress it up in logic kinda like how Ruru used to dress up all his pro-Melo posts in logic, but the motivation was never to be truthful. It was to be loyal to the player he loved.

    So the question is where should the Knicks be on that spectrum of building for the future vs. competing to win now? Because right now, they’re in the middle somewhere… maybe even tilting towards competing for now.

    @54 that is not true at all.

    Tanking is trying to lose, not playing young guys or focusing on the future, but actively trying to lose games.

    Teams tank by benching or shutting down productive players, even young ones, by cutting or trading productive players with the sole purpose of losing games. Tanking would be shutting down KP, trading Lee for nothing and playing Beasley and Sessions and other scrap heap players to ensure losing. Teams often play young players to tank, because young players are often bad and they can sell it as “trying to win” but if the goal is more to lose than to develop players then that is tanking.

    I have no problem trading Lee and O’Quinn for good returns, I think Baker, Dotson and Frank should all play heavy minutes but I also want KP to thrive and the Knicks to win. We realistically can’t tank as long as KP is playing. The bottom 7-8 teams will all probably win less than 25 games, especially since the top of this draft is so stacked. Does anyone think we have a shot at winning less than 12 games for the remainder of the season if KP is playing.

    What do 100 minutes of three man combo stats tell us?

    That we should play them more together until we get 200 minutes of three man combo stats


    I really do. The Knicks were 14-12 last season with 26 games done, and finished with 31 wins, 17-39 in total, and that’s with no big injuries.

    Hardaway is still going to be out for a little while, if Lee + O’Quinn get traded for picks and you insert Ntilikina, Dotson, Willy playing big minutes it’s definitely not a complete stretch to believe this team could win 14-16 games total for the rest of the season, specially with their road record. I wouldn’t bet on less than 12, that seems a bit too much, but I could see this being a 27-30 win team still.


    Our record last year at 14-12 was deceiving. Our point differential last year was much worse than this year, meaning a correction was in order. Our SRS was also much worse last year. We had a team filled with drama and discord, we lost our starting C for the last 30 games of the season, our PG for the last month and KP was shut down with 2 weeks to go. On top of all that Melo started mailing it in halfway through the season.

    It took a lot of things to go wrong to start 14-12 and end with 31 wins, which was only bad enough for the 8th pick anyway. We might not be a great team but I don’t see a complete implosion looming. Do you really think this team is as dysfunctional as last year’s? The only way this team ends with under 28 wins at this point is a season ending KP injury or massive discord and a complete collapse. Both of which would not be worth moving up from 12-16 to 8-12.

    I’m betting there will be at least 7 teams with less than 25 wins this year. It is going to be a very tank heavy close to this season. We just can’t compete.


    I agree it’s highly unlikely and this team is better than last year’s, but all I’m saying is it’s not impossible. If the veterans leave and one injury happens, we could be closer to the bottom than we thought was possible.

    @ Ben R

    You’re talking about the ultra extreme then… that’s your definition? If you took off all the solid role players from the Knicks and replaced them with the best young 2nd rounders you could find while keeping Noah and maybe Lance for locker room leadership, this is a 20-25 win team no question and finishes with a top 5 pick no question and likely develops 1-2 solid rotation players from those young players and has them signed for 3-4 years for next to nothing and actually now has some upside. Even with Kanter (who has been coming down to earth after the insane start), it’s still likely a top 5 pick team.

    That’s a plan that a lot of people here would call “tanking”. Would you?

    Yeah, I think it is just a matter of defining what “tanking” means. I think tanking means getting rid of veteran players who won’t be part of the next good Knicks team (while not taking back other veteran players who won’t be part of the next good Knicks team – so it means keeping Noah, because you can’t get rid of him otherwise and it means keeping Lee unless a team will just give the Knicks a first rounder and an expiring or just a first rounder) and playing the young guys. If the young guys make the playoffs, great. But falling short of the playoffs with a rotation heavy with guys who won’t be part of the next good Knicks team is the ultimate waste.

    If you’re defining tanking as benching all your good players and, like, having Mark Madsen shoot 8 threes a game, then sure, I’m not for that, either.

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