Knicks Morning News (2017.07.28)

  • [NYPost] Kyrie Irving ‘very badly’ wants to join the Knicks: report
    (Thursday, July 27, 2017 12:48:45 PM)

    Kyrie Irving wants to join the New York Knicks “very badly.” ESPN’s Pablo Torre

  • [NYDN] Porzingis pays tribute to NY, Latvia and Knicks with sneaker
    (Thursday, July 27, 2017 5:26:48 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis is paying homage to his home — both his new and his old.

  • [NYDN] Kyrie Irving wants ‘very badly’ to play for the Knicks: report
    (Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:58:55 AM)

    Never underestimate the lure of coming home.

  • [SNY Knicks] Report: Kyrie Irving wants to be traded to the Knicks
    (Thursday, July 27, 2017 9:40:13 AM)

    PG Kyrie Irving is reportedly seeking a trade to the Knicks.

  • 131 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.28)”

    KP’s signature shoe is kinda dope. I haven’t worn Adidas in a loooooong time, but the Crazy Explosive ’17 is making me want a pair

    Interesting that THJ chose #3. Hope he realizes what kind of shoes he’s stepping into when he chooses John Starks’s number.

    #3 will belong to THJr when he averages 20+ ppg for the next 3 seasons on .580 TS. Starks never did that.

    #3 will belong to THJr when he averages 20+ ppg for the next 3 seasons on .580 TS.

    Being in the Eastern Conference in the next couple of years is a good time to land a spot as an All-Star (Hayward in; Millsap, Butler, George, possibly Kyrie, hopefully ‘Melo out).

    Indeed. If #3 gets a spot this year or next, the “realists” and media talking heads will go from criticizing his contract to praising the vision to pursue him in the first place.

    BTW, who is the best SG the Knicks had ever had? Perhaps the oldheads of this board can chime in.

    Indeed. If #3 gets a spot this year or next, the “realists” and media talking heads will go from criticizing his contract to praising the vision to pursue him in the first place.

    You’re probably right… I personally hope he doesn’t because it means he’ll be scoring 20ppg on about 35 shots.

    BTW, who is the best SG the Knicks had ever had? Perhaps the oldheads of this board can chime in.

    Earl the Pearl is probably the popular answer.

    Indeed. If #3 gets a spot this year or next, the “realists” and media talking heads will go from criticizing his contract to praising the vision to pursue him in the first place.

    Some people will never get it.

    Dick Barnett gets referenced a lot by Clyde. I think Richie Guerin may have been a 2G and member of the HOF.

    Of the ones I’ve seen, Starks is my favorite, but Houston is prob the best.

    R u kidding? He could average a triple double on a .700 TS and those guys would still insist that we overpaid. #hatersgonnahate

    16 –

    “See! I told you I was right!”

    “…but the contract could have been at least $10m less and we would have still…”

    “Stop being bitter lol”

    I used to love Sprewell during the per-game stat era, but looking at his stats now, boy was he overrated…

    I guess he was also a SF for us and late in his career. Does that still count?

    Toss up between Barnett and Monroe. Barnett defended Monroe ( on Baltimore), West, Robertson. Freed Clyde to freelance and pick up steals

    Yes, any way you slice it, we offered THJ more than we needed to. It’ll be more palatable, however, if he doesn’t suck.

    I think consensus All-Knicks Team is probably:

    Frazier
    Monroe
    King
    Reed
    Ewing

    OK, we all know Pearl was the best. But in the last 30 years, wouldn’t it be Spree’s offense/defense combo? I’m sure his advanced stats can be picked apart, but I can’t imagine taking anyone else in the last 30 years over him.

    yes, he played SF when he played with Houston.

    @27 King played 206 games as a Knick. He can’t be on the all time team. I think Bradley and Melo are ahead of him.

    @27 King played 206 games as a Knick. He can’t be on the all time team. I think Bradley and Melo are ahead of him.

    I get that he didn’t play as many games as the other guys, but no Knick has ever carried a bigger load with less talent around him.

    I will never forget the 1984 playoffs, where he single handedly willed the Knicks to a 7 game series against a Boston team that had Bird, Parrish and McHale. I was at MSG for game 6 where he put up 44 points and it was insane.

    @27 King played 206 games as a Knick. He can’t be on the all time team. I think Bradley and Melo are ahead of him.

    OK 2.5 seasons doesn’t qualify. Fair enough… I know Bradley was “team first” and all, but Melo’s numbers are just vastly superior. Potentially Cazzie Russell too. I might take Anthony Mason at the 3 before Bill Bradley!

    The Pearl, 100%, no debate. I can’t speak for Guerin or Barnett because I was too young to really understand. Monroe was awesome. Houston, Starks and Spreewell were just good. The Pearl was great.

    As for the all-time lineup that DS put up, I’m behind that. Bernard King is and will always be a Knick as far as I’m concerned. He he not torn his ACL, we would have had King and Ewing on the floor with Mark Jackson and I think that could have been a championship team.

    The Cavs are drunk. The Melo deal was 6 years ago; they should be looking at the Butler, Cousins, and PG deals. That’s what they’re gonna get for Kyrie Irving.

    Is it 6:00 yet? Have we passed the 2 yard line?

    We’re at the 2-millimeter line. This deal will get done by 6pm today, guaranteed. Unless it doesn’t, in which case it will DEFINITELY be done by 6pm tomorrow, or next week, or in the winter sometime.

    Best Knick SG ever was Monroe because ringz, but best of the modern era was probably Hubert Davis.

    Another vote for King. The line-up DS put up is correct.
    For last 30 years I’d go:
    Jackson
    Spree
    Mason
    Oak
    Ewing

    Of the Starks-Sprewell-Houston trio, Starks was the best player. Starks had four seasons of a .130+ WS48, which is pretty solid for a two-guard. I was too young to watch Monroe but for my money Starks is the best Knick shooting guard in my years following the team.

    Starks deserves a lot of credit for his role on those 90’s teams. It was the best defensive team in the NBA, in an era where points were scarce, and Starks’ relentless D on the perimeter was very valuable to those teams. I don’t think he’d be as successful in today’s NBA. The rules were eventually changed because guys like Starks and Derek Harper were so effective with handchecking and other aggressive defensive tactics.

    Starks is my favorite player, but in trying to be objective, I have to go with Spree’s all around game. And it’s hard to ignore the 2 for 18.

    Side note to er: Before you curse me out and damn me to Hell, please look up Mason’s numbers. ie one year he put up 16 (on 11 shots)/11/6 with insane defense thrown in.

    Indeed. If #3 gets a spot this year or next, the “realists” and media talking heads will go from criticizing his contract to praising the vision to pursue him in the first place.

    Instead what will probably happen is that #3 will be pretty mediocre and his contract will be impossible to move within a couple of years and we’ll be saying “I told you so” for the millionth time. And then we’ll get told what a bunch of negative jerks we are, despite year after year after year of being right about just about everything.

    If you’re playing blackjack and you have 17 and the dealer is showing a 6, and you hit the 17 and get dealt a 4, it was still a dumb idea. The Hardaway contract was universally panned not just by Team Realist but by pretty much every media outlet that covers basketball. Maybe it’s because the media hates the Knicks. Or maybe, just maybe, it’s because it was an obviously ridiculously dumb idea that was apparent the moment it was announced.

    At his best, Starks was a clearly better offensive player than Spree. He managed a .535 TS% over six seasons. Spree was consistently around the .500 mark as a Knick. I think they had a similar impact as defensive players, so I have to give the overall edge to Starks.

    You could probably put Ray Williams in the mix- he gets listed as a point but really played the two with MR Richardson. I think he was as good as Starks/Spree/Houston.

    Between Spreewell, Houston and Starks, I agree about Starks being the best. You also have to respect the intangibles. Houston was way over-paid (not his fault), Spreewell was a bit of a loose cannon (see PJ Carlisimo’s neck). The 1994 Starks 2-18 is one of the sad days in Knicks history.

    What about Carl Braun?

    It’s very hard to compare players from the 50s and 60s to the modern era players but he was on the all-nba team if I’m not mistaken.

    Indeed. If #3 gets a spot this year or next, the “realists” and media talking heads will go from criticizing his contract to praising the vision to pursue him in the first place.

    The New York Knicks: Constantly Proving the Doubters Wrong

    If the Knicks are going to be worth watching next year, it’ll be because Porzingis is making a leap and he’ll be the one rewarded by the exemplary all-star selection committee (aka, anybody with an internet connection).

    If Hardaway is an all-star next year, that would be amazing and hilarious and totally weird.

    2-18 kills with t for me, Houston for best “modern” SG
    The Pearl would be my choice all time, dude could really play

    It feels like Ramon Sessions was supposed to be a Knick for 5 years now.

    Wow, Sessions really fell off a cliff last year, no wonder we were able to get him.

    Re: Timmy the potential All-Star, it does get pretty slim in the East after Beal and DeRozen. Reddick and Bradley are in the next tier, and then Timmy is probably leading the next tier, which includes Oladipo and Russell. So if the East goes with the Steve Mills team building route and has five 2 guards, Timmy just might make it.

    Getting guards well past their prime is a big part of what we do here. Have we really not had Sessions before? Seems like we’ve had Ramon Sessions before.

    Maybe it was a deal with Sessions that was on the 2 yard line some time back?

    Looks like we’re not getting Kyrie. School will be in Sessions for Frank.

    Sessions, Knicks have agreed on a one-year, $2.3M minimum deal, league sources tell The Vertical. https://t.co/8AtGe2Yl6G— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) July 28, 2017

    Sessions on a one year deal at 2.3 million is a pretty good deal. Obviously, we’re hoping he rebounds from injury. But even if he doesn’t, there is very little sunk cost relative to the potential gain. That’s another win for Perry.

    Sessions is a good baseline for productivity. Now we know that if Frank and Ron can’t outplay him we should have traded for Kyrie Irving.

    Brandon Jennings signing in China, think I’d rather have him back than signing Sessions but really doesn’t matter.

    In terms of the SG debate it’s a close call between Starks and Houston for me. Starks was the better all around player (although Houston was a pretty good defender himself) because he was an underrated passer but Houston offensively was the better player. If he would’ve played in today’s game he would’ve thrived considering he was a career 40% 3pt shooter and 86% from the FT line. Plus Houston had alot more big playoff games than Starks did. But I loved them both, plus Spree too, so you can’t really go wrong with either Houston or Starks.

    Did you know that Houston is actually 4th all-time in Knicks history in points scored? Only the Big 3 of Ewing, Clyde and Willis Reed are ahead of Houston and if he hadn’t gotten hurt he would’ve easily passed Reed and Frazier but there was no catching Ewing. I can’t imagine anybody ever passing Ewing in points scored in franchise history.

    Good move signing Sessions. He’s a decent backup and a pro’s pro. Was hurt last year and signs a 1-year deal for the veterans minimum. He won’t make the team better. We’ll still lose 50+ games. Perfect!

    Did you know that Houston is actually 4th all-time in Knicks history in points scored? Only the Big 3 of Ewing, Clyde and Willis Reed are ahead of Houston and if he hadn’t gotten hurt he would’ve easily passed Reed and Frazier but there was no catching Ewing. I can’t imagine anybody ever passing Ewing in points scored in franchise history.

    Melo hasn’t passed Houston yet? That’s surprising.

    Now when we see the headline “Boss Trashes Sessions” we won’t know whether it’s about Dolan or Trump.

    I can’t imagine anybody ever passing Ewing in points scored in franchise history.

    Maybe Porzingis?

    KP already has two years on Patrick. But he’s going to need the longevity.

    Nice. Sessions is the perfect tank/get KG and Willy the ball pg.

    Sessions was bad last year but that looks like an injury-related outlier. In a typical year he’s exactly the kind of competent veteran stopgap PG the Knicks need. So, thumbs up from me on that signing.

    I bet Frank is starting before the All-Star break.

    I just came here to post this:

    I’m kind of hoping @FrankLikina wins the starting PG job by the all-star break.

    Wow, a good and sensible signing!

    I’ve been on the Sessions train for a while, he’s just what this team needs right now: a decent veteran who’ll ease the pressure on Ntilikina to start right away and can show him some veteran tricks here and there, and someone who won’t move the needle much but can facilitate a bit for KP and Willy.

    Nice job Perry.

    @75

    That would definitely be ideal. Start Sessions, and bring Ntilikina slowly. Give him minutes at the backup 1 and 2 and let him ease into the job.

    Sessions seems destined to eventually play for every NBA team, so I’m down with it. He’s a perfectly cromulent stopgap.

    That would definitely be ideal. Start Sessions, and bring Ntilikina slowly. Give him minutes at the backup 1 and 2 and let him ease into the job.

    I’m starting to hope this whole Kyrie thing blows over because we are going to have to overpay to get him and I’m mentally getting ready for Frank/THJ/Harkless/Willie/KP in the 2nd half of the season. I can root for that team even though we won’t be very good yet.

    A Houston strip club has retired and hung up James Harden's jersey on their ceiling because he's spent so much money there.— NBA Central (@TheNBACentral) July 27, 2017

    Now when we see the headline “Boss Trashes Sessions” we won’t know whether it’s about Dolan or Trump.

    LOL! Perfect.

    Sessions is fine at the minimum. The definition of a placeholder. Funny that he’ll probably start over a guy who signed for 4x more than him in the same offseason.

    I want Frank to start from day one just as KP did. I think that he’s mature enough to handle it and it will help avoid the misconception that he was the mistake who was chosen ahead of the “great” Dennis Smith Jr.

    Last year was the first time Sessions took >19% of his shots from 3 (he took 24% from 3 last year). He also took a career-low 31% of his shots at the rim. Not sure if those changes are a function of age, his situation in Charlotte, or a deliberate alteration to his game.

    Funny that he’ll probably start over a guy who signed for 4x more than him in the same offseason.

    If you wanted to see a change in the FO after Perry was hired as GM you can point to this difference.

    @85

    yeah, his career stats are a mess, all over the place… there’s stints he shot +40% from 3, there’s other stints he shot 21%, his efg% has wild fluctuations too.

    I guess he’ll be Chris Duhon, capable yet uninspiring, overmatched athletically but with a decent enough feel for the game to get the ball to certain players and help stabilize the offense. Not much can be asked of him at this point.

    Brian, Melo is currently 7th but if he plays just 1 more season with the Knicks he’ll move up to 4th with an outside chance at moving into 3rd.

    KP passing Ewing for franchise leader in points will be virtually impossible. Ewing played 15 seasons with the Knicks scoring 23,665 pts. He averaged 22.8 ppg, 10.4 reb/g and 2.7 blk/g. Ewing is the franchise leader in a ton of categories, even in steals. He may not have a ring and I know the old-school fans will say Clyde or Reed is the greatest player in franchise history but if you look at it statistically it’s not even close, Ewing is far and away the greatest Knick ever.

    Side note to er: Before you curse me out and damn me to Hell, please look up Mason’s numbers. ie one year he put up 16 (on 11 shots)/11/6 with insane defense thrown in.

    @2 for 18 id never curse you out. Lol that’s reserved for one special poster in my eyes 🙂

    But of course Melo is there over Mase…..when I was a kid I begged my dad to get designs in my head because of him. But no chance in the last 30 years he was better than Melo. I think Mase would have been a nice piece for any championship team tho.

    86 – who can forget the “scrappiest” player before scrappy was cool. Agua!

    I think Monroe with the Bullets, in college and on playgrounds was better than both of them. You don’t get the nickname Black Jesus for nothing

    Getting Sessions would have been good 4 years ago, now kind of Meh.
    I guess it helps the tank and perhaps he can run the offense and get KP the ball. One thing for sure, he’ll pass more than Rose did last year.

    Black Jesus, what an awesome handle.

    The Sessions deal is a milestone in recent Knicks history. Everyone on this board actually liked it and thinks it reasonable. I can’t remember that ever happening before. What was the player acquisition or trade by the Knicks that everyone here thought was reasonable?

    The Sessions deal is a milestone in recent Knicks history. Everyone on this board actually liked it and thinks it reasonable. I can’t remember that ever happening before. What was the player acquisition or trade by the Knicks that everyone here thought was reasonable?

    Willy. Kuz. Robin Lopez. Kyle O’Quinn. When they make good moves, they get credit for them.

    I’d like us to pick up Quinn cook or Briante webber – or both – to compete for pg mins. Both young, get a lot of good reviews from the teams they’ve spent time with… what’s the downside? Either may be better than sessions at this point.

    Meh is perfect right now.

    I’m curious about how Lee will play with a PG that will pass him the ball amd involve him in the game.

    I guess that a silver lining in overpaying for Baker might be that we had no cap space left for Rondo.

    Some people liked those deaks and they were more popular here than many others, but KOQ wasnt totally popular until people saw him play, and similarly for Willy. Nobody had any idea who Kuz was, so I don’t agree the deal was immediately popular. Robin Lopez, maybe. I don’t remember the first reactions to his signing.

    Sessions’ is not a bad deal because:

    1) Vet minimum is fine with me.
    2) There are literally zero point guards on the team.
    3) He’s been somewhere between a below- and above-average starter for his whole career. No Mudiay-like seasons, but no Deron-Williams-in-’07 years, either.

    Sessions’ is a bad deal because they could have signed a rookie who has a higher ceiling than “savvy veteran who will teach other guards how to play mediocre basketball.”

    I’d grade it a C because length and price are good, but overall value is not.

    I agree on the C grade. He has bounced between solid seasons and not so solid ones. If he plays well then it is fine, but I’d rather take a flyer on a young PG out of Europe or D-League than proven mediocrity.

    He is 31 and coming off both a poor season and an injury. Maybe he bounces back and is solid but just as likely he is a net negative and provides no upside potential.

    But price and the fact he is not Rondo or Rose makes this a C.

    I still want a suggestion of who they could have signed if you are saying they would have done better signing someone else. I allege that if they knew of a young point guard from Europe or D-league, they would have tried him out in summer league. But the best they could get for summer league was Randle. Would you rather they signed him?

    He was too young to be eligible for the NBA in 2016 after the Olympics

    Sorry about 109..tried to edit but it timed out on me..
    Anyway..
    Late to the party on the best Knicks SG and the Spree/H20/Starks debate, but here’s my quick take:
    Best Knicks SG? Has to be Monroe, but not by a wide margin. Spree vs H20 vs Starks? All were really good players. Spree was easily the best player of the trio IMO, but the best Knick out of the trio was Starks. Spree sacrificed a lot to fit in, that should always be taken in consideration..but Starks was the best Knicks SG out of the 3.

    I like the Sessions signing. He doesn’t move the needle, but he is a vet that doesn’t need big minutes and he can mentor Ntilikina, Baker, and Randle. I think of Sessions as more combo guard than floor general because he’s always scored more than set guys up- but he can run an office like a true floor general. Kinda makes him a good fit to mentor the types of PG’s we have on the roster. Too bad age and injury has taken away from his defense. I always thought he would be a decent fit on the Knicks his entire career, so I’m kinda excited to see what he can bring this season. Solid move that really doesn’t get in the way of the kids’ growth. If he’s healthy this could end up being a shrewd, low key great signing.

    Now on to moving Melo and really feeling good about this rebuild..

    Looking back on it Spree was a good defender and a nice playmaker, but he was a fucking chucker. Houston could score but didn’t do anything else. So I’d probably give the nod to Starksy, at least for the few years when he hit his 3’s. The Knicks haven’t had a really good 2 guard in my lifetime. Trent Tucker might have been better than Spree/Starks/Houston-it’s a shame they didn’t realize you should shoot tons of 3s when he was in his prime.

    Very Meh on Sessions. He’s a crappier Andre Miller- very deliberate- not a guy who generates a lot of ball/player movement. Probably not the best model for Frank but not the worst either I guess. Shouldn’t hurt the tank at all but if Melo is still here the offense will be even slower than it was last year.

    The Sessions signing gets a B+/A from me just because he sucks and won’t imperil the tank.

    I think of Sessions as more combo guard than floor general because he’s always scored more than set guys up- but he can run an office like a true floor general

    Ha! Ever since the last update, my autocorrect has sucked even more! That was meant to say “run an offense”. But since his last name is Sessions..then I guess it works either way

    Which rookie could they have signed?

    Undrafted, signed by Magic to Summer League roster, dropped for Shelvin Mack (wtf), then signed by the Heat to a

    #3 in the whole NCAA in ORtg while playing big minutes for a 26-12 Big 10 powerhouse that lost by 1 to a Final Four team.

    https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/derrick-walton-1.html

    He’s short and probably not “athletic,” but give me a 22-year-old for a 4-year, $5M contract with the last two years a team option any day of the week over some over-the-hill guy who has literally no upside aside from “will play 900 passable minutes on the way to a 35-win season.”

    This team is disgustingly risk-averse about rookie contracts, all the while throwing stupid money at players like THJ and Lance Thomas.

    If the Knicks got Briante Weber he’d become a cult hero in NY. If you haven’t seen him play, he’s a killer on defense.
    For those counting at home, we’re now spending 40 mil a year on our backup pg, SG and center.

    Reading the tea leaves, the Sessions signing suggests the Knicks dong think much of their chances of getting Irving. That could be for the best. There’s apparently a lot of demand for him and the price is likely to be high

    Signing a career back-up in Ramon Sessions has nothing to do with Kyrie Irving.

    The Cavs would be dumb as hell to take the Heat’s offer of Dragic and Winslow. Dragic is 30 years old and a clear downgrade from Irving and Winslow was Ron Baker bad last year. The best deal on the table is going to be Melo and Bledsoe for Irving, Shumpert, and Frye. I don’t know why people are still pretending Melo is going to go to Houston; Ryan Anderson intercepted the pass on 4th down the day Scott Perry signed on to become GM. He’s either staying in New York or going to Cleveland.

    The Cavs refused to trade Irving for George. They wanted more. They dont have trade him. If they stand pat, they probably go to the finals again. Thats not a horrible alternative. So i dont think they will come down much in price. If Perry believes that then he needs an alternative that lets him wait a year until Kyrie’s cost is less (something the Knicks management didn’t do for Melo). Now , with Sessions, they can go into the season without having to make a trade. It’s always good to create alternatives when negotiating (Again, something the Knicks didn’t do when acquiring Melo)

    I just don’t see Houston giving up ariza bc if his productivity plus relationship with CP3

    I agree, but if melo’s value is really higher amongst the players than it is amongst us nerds it’s a fair deal. They dump the Anderson albatross and get a better scorer at the 3. The only way to beat Gstate is to outscore them anyway.

    Houston gets their own death lineup of Paul, Gordon, Harden, melo and Capela

    #3 in the whole NCAA in ORtg while playing big minutes for a 26-12 Big 10 powerhouse that lost by 1 to a Final Four team.

    https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/derrick-walton-1.html

    He seems more of a scorer than a distributor. I guess the point is that the rest of the team has somebody to at least try and train basic plays during games. If not, it will become an ISO-fest (more than it has been).

    Leonard has been one of the hold ups in any 3-way deal with Houston and Portland. He’s not a very good player, his contract is too expensive, and it’s 3 years long. If the Knicks take back Leonard, they’ll have 2 clear cut bad contacts (Noah and Leonard) and a coupe of overpays. They will be mediocre, more or less be capped out for 3 years, and have very little chance to make a serious push until those guys start coming off.

    Under no circunstances should the Knicks trade Melo if they have to take on a shitty 3-year deal (Leonard, Turner, etc.) If a cap-friendly deal can’t be engineered, just keep him.

    PG: Sessions, Baker, Frank (OJ?)
    SG: Lee, TH2, Dotson
    SF: Lance, Kuz
    PF: Melo, KP
    C: Willy, O’Q, Noah

    Pick up a couple of bigs to round out the roster, or even keep Kornet around, and we’re all set.

    @130

    I agree.

    I’d way rather hope Melo opts out next year than take on a single bad contract that worsens our long term position just to get rid of Melo now. With Melo, the worst case scenario is that he opts in and we have to wait 2 years to have a ton of cap space. That’s still better than waiting 3 years.

    I don’t mind taking Harkless for 3 years (though I’m not crazy about the idea), but no way I’m taking back Leonard or Anderson.

    Comments are closed.