Knicks Morning News (2017.07.24)

  • [NY Newsday] Scott Perry to add Gerald Madkins as Knicks assistant GM, source says
    (Sunday, July 23, 2017 6:14:00 PM)

    Knicks president Steve Mills said new GM Scott Perry would be able to add people to the front office, and he’s close to doing just that.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks to hire Madkins as assistant GM
    (Sunday, July 23, 2017 5:21:47 PM)

    The New York Knicks will hire Gerald Madkins to become their new assistant general manager.

  • [NYDN] Gerald Madkins is leaving Clippers to become Knicks assistant GM
    (Sunday, July 23, 2017 11:42:06 AM)

    The Knicks appear to be making their first significant front office hire under new general manager Scott Perry.

  • [NYTimes] John Kundla, Winning Coach of Fledgling Lakers, Dies at 101
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 1:53:06 AM)

    Kundla led the Minneapolis team to five titles in the N.B.A. and its immediate precursor.

  • [NYTimes] W.N.B.A.’s Seattle Storm Embrace a Role in Social Activism
    (Sunday, July 23, 2017 10:25:30 PM)

    With owners, players, a president and a coach who are all women, the Storm held a rally for Planned Parenthood as they hosted the league’s All-Star Game.

  • [NYPost] Knicks give three-year deal to 2nd-rounder who’s impressed
    (Sunday, July 23, 2017 6:59:30 PM)

    The Knicks would like to interrupt the summer of Carmelo Anthony and other assorted rumors to deal with other player news. Second-round pick Damyean Dotson, the 44th selection overall from the University of Houston, is getting a three-year deal from the team. The third year is a team option. The first two are guaranteed at…

  • [NYPost] New Knicks regime makes 1st move in plucking Clippers exec
    (Sunday, July 23, 2017 2:37:09 PM)

    The Knicks’ new front-office hierarchy is making its first move. And it involves the new front-office hierarchy. According to multiple league sources, Gerald Madkins will be named the Knicks new assistant general manager, leaving the Clippers, where he was director of basketball operations since September 2012. Madkins, 48, who played parts of three NBA seasons…

  • 176 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.24)”

    Is it just me or is anyone else sorta….optimistic about Scott Perry?

    Gerald Madkins is really well regarded around the league, and certainly had a good record here when he was in the scouting department for *shudder* Isiah.

    And now he wants to hire a cap expert to replace whatever dope has been running it to this point for us?

    These feel like normal moves for an abnormal franchise. It’s a low bar, but it looks like he just might hop over it.

    by the way – is anyone else sort of suspicious that maybe it was the Knicks that leaked the Kyrie trade request? Who else really benefits from that news being leaked? If Morey thinks there’s even a chance that the Knicks would trade 2 first round picks and Melo to Cleveland, he might try a little harder to make the Melo->Houston thing work…

    (I really don’t think we are trading for Kyrie. But the perception that we might sell the farm for him might be useful)

    Doubt that Knicks leaked Kyrie news. Not good PR for making future trades. More likely someone in either LeBron’s or Kyrie’s camp. If I had to bet, I’d say LeBron’s camp, as a means of lighting a fire under the new GM to shake things up and improve the team.

    I like Madkins but worry about any prior Isiah connection with anyone on its face. The less his name comes up, the better.

    I also doubt that Kyrie is coming here, especially if it facilitates Cleveland getting better. Smarter to let them simmer in dysfunction and slowly crumble as we get better. I don’t see any way for Cleveland to get better in the next 2 years without having Kyrie as their PG. He’s an excellent player, and more importantly, an excellent playoffs performer, in a league dominated by lots of excellent PGs. I think Bledsoe is a step down from him.

    Didn’t Washington have similar drama between Wall and Beal? My guess is that this is a smokescreen and that Kyrie and LeBron will work things out for this year.

    The big question for me is, whether Cleveland figures out a way to get Melo into the fold without giving up one of Thompon, Love or Kyrie. If I were Cleveland, I’d offer this + 2022 draft pick or rights to Osman:

    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine

    Then CLE could just fill out the roster with vet min guys.

    What if Bron were to say to Kyrie: The Cavs are your team. James then forces a trade to Houston for Ryan Anderson, Hartenstein, Qi, all Houston 1 picks eligible to be traded, all Houston 2 picks eligible to be traded.

    Maybe Derrick Rose leaked the news to get a chance at a starting job in Cleveland?? You heard here first!!!

    The weirdest piece of news is that Kyrie believes Lebron leaked it… that probably shows Cleveland is in no hurry to make a decision and Kyrie is trying to create a situation where Lebron comes and tells the Cavs to trade him asap.

    This is really weird because if your a team interested in Kyrie, you’re definitely lowballing the hell out of the Cavs right now, right? With James guaranteeing he won’t waive his NTC, that means the Cavs are going to be increasingly more desperate to please him for at least this year.

    Unless two or more teams engage in a massive bidding war for him, I don’t see why anyone would offer real, great offers for Irving right now. Just wait until Cleveland Paul George’s his value.

    Some dude named Burt_Steele is tweeting that Melo will be a Rocket by 6PM today. Supposedly he broke the CP3 news first, and that he may know Morey. Other than that, he has 170 followers, and tweeted 3 times in the past 2 years. Take what you like from that.

    Gerald Madkins is really well regarded around the league, and certainly had a good record here when he was in the scouting department for *shudder* Isiah.

    I can’t make a judgment on him because I don’t know anything about him, but my default position is that I’d rather be hiring people from the Celtics and Spurs organization than people from the Clippers, Kings, Magic etc… or ex-Knicks under Isiah.

    My bigger concern is that if he’s going to do any scouting for the Knicks, that could mean Gaines is out.

    If I was Dan Gilbert I think I’d consider blowing up the team and starting my rebuild as soon as possible while my stars still have a lot of value. When you are winning, it tends to hide problems. But now that they lost to GS and there’s no clear path to getting better, it’s turning into a sh$t show.

    Some dude named Burt_Steele is tweeting that Melo will be a Rocket by 6PM today. Supposedly he broke the CP3 news first, and that he may know Morey. Other than that, he has 170 followers, and tweeted 3 times in the past 2 years. Take what you like from that.

    That makes him a better source than Isola. 🙂

    If I wanted Kyrie I’m not waiting for somebody to eventually outbid me, especially when I have my own disgruntled superstar who is friends with LeBron. I’d be racking my brain trying to reunite MKG and Kyrie Irving while holding onto my Core 4 of TH2, KP, Frank, and Willy. Cleveland has to be smart enough to see that trading Irving, Shump, and Frye for Melo and Bledsoe is a trade that they win regardless of Kyrie’s perceived trade value. There is no team out there that is about to trade the farm for Kyrie Irving if they know he will leave in 2019. The only team not listed on his trade list that could keep would be the Clippers, but I don’t think they have the assets to pull a trade off.
    Beverley, Dekker, and a Houston 1st just doesn’t sound good enough. If Kyrie Irving gets traded, he’s going to Miami or New York. Minnesota and San Antonio don’t have the assets, and then Miami doesn’t have a 1st round pick to trade until 2020. We can give them Melo and turn our 2018 1st into Eric Bledsoe for them. There isn’t a better deal out there than Melo and Bledsoe, and that’s a trade that makes them deep.

    Bledsoe, Smith, Melo, LeBron, Thompson, Love, and Korver is about as good a top 7 as Cleveland could expect to get.

    How would this all be playing out if Draymond doesn’t get suspended for game 5 in 2016 and the Warriors win in 5? There’s no way LeBron can leave Cleveland without bringing them a title, right?

    I see zero reason for the Knicks to get rid of Clarence Gaines Jr.

    Isola and NYDN is the only outlet reporting that Gaines Jr might be out with this hire, so I’m not taking it seriously at all. Isola has no sources inside the Knicks organization.

    @12

    What I’m saying is that we have no idea if that offer is on the table.

    I still have a very hard time seeing Phoenix entering this situation, trading Bledsoe away and not getting Kyrie. Why would they do it, when they can make bids for Kyrie himself using Bledsoe + any assets they have.

    I see zero reason for the Knicks to get rid of Clarence Gaines Jr.

    Isola and NYDN is the only outlet reporting that Gaines Jr might be out with this hire, so I’m not taking it seriously at all. Isola has no sources inside the Knicks organization.

    Berman mentioned it a week or so ago unrelated to this hire.

    Here are the complete Diamond Sportsbook odds on which team will land Kyrie.

    Knicks: +350

    San Antonio Spurs: +400

    Miami Heat: +550

    Minnesota Timberwolves: +700

    Not traded before 2017-18 regular season starts: +1000

    Field: +200

    We’re #1.

    The reason Phoenix trades Bledsoe and doesn’t get Irving back is because of the difference between buying and selling. If you buy Kyrie Irving, you have to pay Bledsoe, TJ Warren, Marquesse Chriss, and Miami’s pick/your own pick. You also run the risk of losing him if Booker, Jackson, and Bender aren’t good in a year because you can’t attract free agents to play in Phoenix, and you’ve already downgraded your defense. If you sell Bledsoe, you get back a New York 1st round pick (so that’s 3 top 20 picks in next year’s draft), Ognjen Jaramaz, Shump, and possibly Cedi Osman. That’s a big difference, and according to most stats out there Irving doesn’t provide a large enough difference in wins over Bledsoe to make the trade worth it. Then you have to consider that both Bledsoe and Irving have shaky injury histories. Phoenix would be smart to sell Bledsoe and pick up a 3rd 1st round pick in the draft and rebuild Sacramento style.

    Burt_Steele is a great porn name

    I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who thought it.

    (Mine is Playboy Washington)

    Is it just me or is anyone else sorta….optimistic about

    Let me stop you there, Frank. It’s just you.

    I forget who wrote it, but someone noted that the leak was a result of the meeting two weeks ago slowly leaking out to the Cavs players, who then, of course, started talking. I bet Lebron was one of them, but I bet others were talking, as well. It’s rather big news. It’d be hard to imagine any of them keeping it quiet. Is JR Smith really not going to talk about news this big when he hears it?

    And yeah, the worrisome Gaines stuff (on top of this new guy getting hired) was Berman casually dissing him recently. Berman is likely well-connected to either Mills or someone very close to Mills, so Berman saying something pissy about Gaines is bad news.

    Simmons scooping that Melo may be interested in OKC. Can anyone construct anything good out of that?

    Westbrook
    Roberson
    George
    Melo
    Adams

    That’s a great starting 5. That’s how

    I like Madkins but worry about any prior Isiah connection with anyone on its face.

    He That Shan’t Be Named was actually pretty good at finding talent in the draft.

    Stoudemire, Camby, McGrady, Ariza, Frye, Lee, Robinson, Chandler, and Balkman were all solid-to-great picks of his.

    In fact, in his 8 year as a chief executive everybody he ever selected in the draft (mostly late 1st and 2nd rounders) proved to have significant NBA talent (with the lone exception being Mardy Collins).

    Obviously, Madlins wasn’t with him in Toronto, and who knows how much input he had in NY, but the draft record (for the picks they didn’t trade away) was very good during his tenure, and so somebody was doing something right in the disfunctional praganization of that time.

    OKC would have to send us Kanter plus other stuff (say, Kyle Singler) to make the salaries come close work. Kanter’s awfully redundant on a team with so many big men — one of whom we keep comparing to Kanter, but on a vastly cheaper contract. To bother with that deal, I’d want some picks. What do they have going forward? Any young draft-and-stash guys?

    whatever deal we have brewing with the thunder better not involve kanter…..

    Kanter’s literally the only salary they have big enough to make it work if they’re not giving up Russ (they’re not), George (ditto), or Adams (see above).

    Portland reportedly only wants Melo for themselves.

    Kind of hard to see an OKC deal work, but Kanter almost surely would have to be in it.

    That was when they were getting Ryan Anderson, though. I bet if they could get Enes Kanter, they would go nuts and be totally on board, right? 🙂

    I feel like there has to be a way for us to get Anderson, Kanter AND Leonard. You guys just need to hit the trade machine a little harder.

    the biggest issue with the Thunder is that if I recall correctly they don’t have their 2018 nor 2020 picks, 2018 is the one Utah traded for Rubio, its lottery protected and will surely happen next draft.

    That means the Thunder shouldnt be able to trade their 2019 pick and without that, they have literally no assets outside of Kanter… maybe Abrines should have some value, but both he and Kanter would be incredibly redudant to the Knicks.

    I dont see it happening and Portland appears to be adamant still on not wanting to be the third team in Melo trades.

    And if it doesn’t happen this week, they can make the same prediction next week. And the week after.
    🙂

    What’s funny is that if Phil were still here he might have included KP in a Kyrie deal.

    Thanks Dolan!

    If Melo doesn’t want to go to CLE which has an open invitation to the Finals why would he want to go OKC which has a very tough path through at least two of SAS, HOU, or GSW?

    Cleveland and OKC rumors feel very much like leaks for a purpose — which is to extract another asset from Morey. Worth a shot I guess.

    @ 1 – “These feel like normal moves for an abnormal franchise. It’s a low bar, but it looks like he just might hop over it.”

    Word – small moves but it looks like they’re moving in the right direction

    If Melo doesn’t want to go to CLE which has an open invitation to the Finals why would he want to go OKC which has a very tough path through at least two of SAS, HOU, or GSW?

    On the flip side, why would he want to go to Houston and not want to go to OKC?

    Perry was right; Melo will eventually expand his list as the off season wears on.

    Glad we have competent management now.

    According to Simmons its Troy Weaver, Thunder Assistant GM, who is luring Melo to OKC. He supposedly goes back with Melo all way to his college days when the former recruited the latter to play in Syracuse.

    Word – small moves but it looks like they’re moving in the right direction

    Even the Dotson signing, which is as average and routine a move as there is, seems a good step forward. 2 years guaranteed, 1 year partially guaranteed is a far cry from the Ron Baker 1 year with no team option on year 2 which ended up costing us our room exception.

    It really is astounding how terrible our cap management has been to this point. I wonder whether Perry has to literally sit Mills and co. down and explain why a 3 year deal with the 3rd year partially guaranteed is better than a two year deal with 2nd year player option.

    @44 Team Banana Boat.Anthony tests the waters with CP3 and if it works next year those two team up with LeBron and D Wade to try and take GSW.

    Between Ron Baker and Lance Thomas we’re paying upwards of $11 million a year for the next 2 years. #KnicksCapManagement

    Haven’t had time to comment but this Kyrie stuff is more insanity. At least he’s actually a really good, young player coming off a great season – that’s some kind of progress. The idea of trading two picks for him is completely ridiculous though when he can leave in two years and with us having zero chance to be contenders before then.

    Maybe it works out though, who knows.

    @50… I mean, I totally agree but I’d barely even say this is a cap management issue. I’d hope that’s about things like the right order in which to make signings, how to make complex trades work… if they need to hire someone specifically to tell them 11% of the cap is too much for two sub/replacement level players then hey – by NBA front office salary measures I’m cheap and available… VP of pointing out the obvious… where do I apply?!

    And if it doesn’t happen this week, they can make the same prediction next week. And the week after.

    The ball is now on the 1 3/4 yard line.

    @ 52 – I think its more complicated than that. A cap expert is probably coming up with a thousand different scenarios with trades, draft picks, etc…to show what the cap situation would be like under these different scenarios.

    For what it’s worth (not much) that guy I posted above said 5:45 PM tomorrow, not today.

    Marshawn Lynch is probably gettting contacted as we speak to drive the ball home from the 2 yard line.

    I think Melo is going to insist on going to the Rockets because he would much rather join forces with Paul than with Westbrook and I agree with him. He probably realizes Westbrook is a scorer just like him and Paul would be the literal ideal choice of a set up man to get the ball to Melo in favourable positions.

    Houston is also a much more attractive place than OKC, so unless the Knicks really refuse to deal with Houston, there’s no reason to choose OKC over Houston.

    That’s what I’m saying – I was just agreeing with early bird that we currently don’t even have the most rudimentary elements of cap management sorted – like, don’t spend all the money on bad players. While also pointing out that once again, we’re so used to total dysfunction that a ‘cap expert’ who just avoided these basic errors would feel like a win…

    Yeah, what’s the point of a GM if they also need a cap expert, a scouting expert, a PR expert, an agent liasoning expert, a sexual harassment cover-up agent, etc…

    It seems the GM needs to be able to do at least most of this stuff himself, otherwise he’s pretty useless, especially considering the guy above him also doesn’t bring any of this to the table.

    Why not just have a POBO with a team of experts below him? Is the GM’s job really just to ask his secretary to get other GMs on the phone to discuss what their team of experts have been going over?

    The only way I can see Melo going to Houston at this point is if they cave to the cavs rumours and switch Anderson out for Ariza and Gordon. Otherwise there are just too many bad dollars being thrown around for it to work. The price for someone to take Anderson will be two first rounders. The price we’re asking for Melo should include at least one first and a decent young rotation player. That means Houston has to find perhaps three firsts and a decent young player – all while only wanting to give up Anderson. It just doesn’t stack up.

    No one is going to suddenly see Anderson as a plus and not require additional comp to take him. He’s 29, so way too old and expensive for a young rebuilding team. And he’s a terrible defender who uses 20% of the cap – so no good as the ‘one last piece’ for a contender. He just doesn’t fit for any third team.

    Melo wants to be a Rocket because there is no state income tax in Texas and the Rockets have a huge Chinese fan base. If he wanted to win above all else, he’d be demanding to go to Cleveland.

    The only way I can see Melo going to Houston at this point is if they cave to the cavs rumours and switch Anderson out for Ariza and Gordon. Otherwise there are just too many bad dollars being thrown around for it to work. The price for someone to take Anderson will be two first rounders. The price we’re asking for Melo should include at least one first and a decent young rotation player. That means Houston has to find perhaps three firsts and a decent young player – all while only wanting to give up Anderson. It just doesn’t stack up.

    I think it’ll end up being something like we take Anderson but get Hartenstein, Troy Williams, Cam Oliver, a 1st and a 2nd. Something like that.

    basically Anderson, a 1st, a 2nd, and 2 guys that could have been late first rounders this year in Hartenstein and Cam Oliver.

    Anderson’s not a useless player, and honestly a 5-out lineup with KP, Anderson, Lee, THJ, and either Frank or Baker would be pretty fun to watch. Naturally we’d rather not have him, but our cap situation is f*cked for the next 3 seasons anyway with Noah and Lee on the books. Noah is definitely sticking around. Lee could be moved I guess.

    @ 60 – come on, man. That’s dumb. LeBron and Irving is a great combo to pair up with. So is Harden and CP3. By all accounts CP3 and Melo are super close and so is LeBron and Melo. He wanted Cleveland before CP3 went there but now he wants Houston bc I think he probably thinks he is a better “fit” for them. In Cleveland you’re talking about him and Love being a bit of an overlap positionally (not to mention LeBron though he can play anything). Harden is better than Irving too.

    Either way you gotta get past Golden State.

    Yeah, what’s the point of a GM if they also need a cap expert, a scouting expert, a PR expert, an agent liasoning expert, a sexual harassment cover-up agent, etc…

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the Knicks playing winning basketball, putting together a competent management team, or even profitability.

    Mills, Isiah, Houston and the rest of them are only interested in the Knicks to the extent they need be to continue extracting large sums of money from Dolan for themselves and their connected buddies inside and outside the organization. It would not shock me in the least if the 2 large contracts given to Baker and Hardaway were given because their agents are somehow connected to these guys and they are simply taking care of their friends without any regard for cap space or fair contracts (within reason)

    When Phil came in, he wanted to drain the swamp. He wasn’t permitted and ultimately he was driven out by Mills and the other swamp creatures.

    When Griffin interviewed, he wanted the power to drain the swamp. He was told “no” and that’s why he dropped out.

    You’ll see what’s going to happen in coming years. They are going to keep hiring people with some sort of connection to Mills or other people at the Garden. No one associated with them is going to get fired. If anyone gets the boot it will be people that were associated with Phil. They will continue giving bad contracts to players associated with agents and agencies they are tied to.

    I’d be willing to take Kanter if OKC was sending other assets our way. He’s only got one more year left at $17m, plus a player option for $18m, which he may decline (I’d put it at 50/50).

    The problem is that OKC has very few positive assets to include in the package. Abrines and Jerami Grant are their only young players on cheap deals, and both are fringey role players. The first available 1st round pick they can trade is in 2020 (and only if it falls between 1-20, because if it’s 21-30 it goes to Orlando). If that pick goes to Orlando, the next available one would be 2022.

    OK. Who here thinks we have a slim chance of winning the title next season? What about the season after that? Hmmm. What about 3 years from now? Answer: We’re soooooo far away from a title.

    Screw Kyrie. He just solidifies our status as mediocre. We need picks and after that, more picks. Trade anyone >29. Keep Frank. Keep Wily. Keep KP. Keep the kids.

    Naturally we’d rather not have him, but our cap situation is f*cked for the next 3 seasons anyway with Noah and Lee on the books. Noah is definitely sticking around. Lee could be moved I guess.

    I’d change that to Noah and Hardaway.

    Depending on how this all shakes out and how much cap space we have after a Melo deal, I still think there’s a chance Lee is part of deal, most likely to bring in a PG. The best source I’ve found said from day 1 the Knicks love Lee and do not want to trade him even though they could easily do so. But they still want a veteran PG. I don’t see how they accomplish that unless a Melo deal creates cap space. I think that’s what they are waiting on also. If they can create space they’ll fill it. If they can’t, then Lee may be on the block. But they want to keep Lee and that’s the only reason he hasn’t be traded yet. There’s plenty of interest.

    @64 – let’s be a touch more optimistic… Perry has come in and done nothing that would suggest that he’s beholden to any previous interests. He’s hired a new assistant GM who by all accounts is well-respected around the league. He’s looking for a cap expert, which is not a sign of weakness — it’s a sign that he understands that the intricacies of the cap are a whole specialty unto themselves. He signed Dotson to a smart team-friendly contract. And he hasn’t traded any 1st round picks…yet.

    Frank
    @68 – The evidence supports Stratomatic. If one of us was GM, we wouldn’t be signing THJ to decade-killing contracts. Still, I support your @1 post. I still have (delusional) hope that Perry is different. The THJ and Baker signings were before his arrival and suddenly, when he was signed, the world’s stupidest trade, Melo to Hou where we get a different awful contract back, suddenly disappeared. Maybe there’s hope. Maybe.

    @64 – let’s be a touch more optimistic… Perry has come in and done nothing that would suggest that he’s beholden to any previous interests. He’s hired a new assistant GM who by all accounts is well-respected around the league. He’s looking for a cap expert, which is not a sign of weakness — it’s a sign that he understands that the intricacies of the cap are a whole specialty unto themselves. He signed Dotson to a smart team-friendly contract. And he hasn’t traded any 1st round picks…yet.

    I know nothing about the guy and said as much in an earlier post.

    However, of all the guys out there from organizations with long term records of solid drafting, team building, deal making, winning, and running widely respected organizations he came up with someone from the “Clippers” that used to work for Isiah and Mills. I’m not intuitively enthusiastic.

    Kind of like Phil bringing in Rambis. lol

    At least Phil had an excuse. He was surrounded by MSG swamp people that had Dolan’s ear and needed someone loyal.

    I’d accept this deal from OKC.

    OKC gets: Melo, Kuz
    NYK gets: Kanter, Abrines, McDermott, Chicago’s 2018 2nd round pick, the right to swap 1st round picks in 2019, OKC’s 2020 1st round pick (conveys if the pick falls between 1-20; otherwise becomes 2021 pick under the same conditions; if it fails to convey in 2021 it becomes a 2022 pick under the same conditions; if it fails to convey in 2022 it becomes a 2023 pick)

    This works under the cap and works with OKC’s existing pick restrictions.

    OKC already owes their 2020 1st from the Jerami Grant trade.

    If OKC is serious about wanting Melo both Terrance Ferguson and Jerami Grant have to be on the table.

    @72

    The 2020 pick from the Grant trade only conveys if it’s #21-30. They can still trade that pick if it falls #1-20.

    @71 – That trade works for me only because we get picks back. Well, it also makes us suck which is good too. Bump up those picks!

    @73

    They can’t do that because they’d still owe the pick in 2021 and they can’t trade away consecutive firsts.

    However, of all the guys out there from organizations with long term records of solid drafting, team building, deal making, winning, and running widely respected organizations he came up with someone from the “Clippers” that used to work for Isiah and Mills. I’m not intuitively enthusiastic.

    Madkins’s record is pretty solid. For all the issues with Isiah, drafting was not one of them. He was a scout for Isiah during his string of very solid drafts (Ariza, Wilson Chandler, Nate, David Lee, Channing Frye). Then he was on the Sonics as a director college scouting when they drafted Durant (no-brainer) but also drafted Big Baby and Carl Landry in the 2nd round – excellent finds. He was also there for the Ibaka/Westbrook draft of 2008. Then no less than Daryl Morey hired him as director scouting for the Rockets in 9/2008 , then VP or player personnel for the Hornets before going to the Clippers as an assistant GM. He’s legit and has been climbing the ranks. Just because he has a history with Steve Mills and Isiah doesn’t mean he’s definitely a loser.

    @75

    You’re right, I didn’t think about that part.

    To make the trade work you could replace OKC’s 2020 pick with their 2022 pick (conveys if it’s #1-20; otherwise becomes a 2024 pick).

    A late first or even two are not worth taking on bad players on bad contracts. Late 1sts have almost no value. You can buy early 2nds and sometimes even buy late 1st without taking on bad players.

    No Melo trade without cap relief and a small asset or no cap relief and a real asset. No trades making our cap worse unless it’s a lottery pick or a very nice young player.

    No Houston trade, no Okc trade unless they take Noah.

    I really like both Abrines and Jerami Grant, I can see both being legit contributors in the future for a playoff team.

    It is safe to assume Adams won’t get traded, so it would have to be Kanter, who makes 17 million a year and has a player option for 2018-19.

    I would love a Abrines + Grant + Kanter package for Melo if the Knicks got a future unrestricted pick too, maybe 2022 for example. Odds are really good that OKC will have a few good years still and then crumble and struggle rebuilding, so future picks like 2021, 2022 are potentially strong assets to have. Kanter is redundant but he could be the backup for KP, and should be much easier to get rid of than Melo’s NTC contract anyway.

    I still don’t believe Melo would ever agree to go to OKC tho.

    I think Kanter + Abrines + Grant + some kind of pick is perfectly good for Melo and better than what Houston can give us, given that Kanters contract is better than Andersons and the only young assets Houston can give are young bigs when we’re already set in that regard. Abrines can operate as insurance in case THJr opts out and he’s not worth resigning for big bucks and Grant has improved every year and is a legit defender. It’s not a king’s ransom but it’s probably the best deal we could hope to get. Like others have said however idk how Melo gets persuaded to go to OKC.

    Why is Pau getting 3 years, 48 Mill from the Spurs?

    Pau actually had a really good year. Looks like he was one of their better defenders and managed to score efficiently w/ 57.8 TS%.

    I think we’ll be able to get a good deal out of Houston. Rockets are trying to sell the franchise, if they have Carmelo on the roster they can probably sell it for more than if they have a few extra draft picks/young players. On the other hand, we’re the Knicks.

    I don’t know about some of the moves the Spurs have made the last few years. Did they hire someone from the Knicks that I missed?

    LaMarcus Aldridge?

    Gasol at this price?

    Rudy Gay?

    FWIW, 538’s CARMELO projection system has Pau valued last year over $22 million and project his value this upcoming season at $18 million. All the composite stats really like Pau

    Also worth considering is that they valued Tim Hardaway’s performance from last year at $15 million. If he can replicate that, then it isn’t a horrible overpay. That said, they project Hardaway to regress to around $9 mil in value. Also, I don’t agree with the CARMELO valuation.

    Shams Charania?Verified account
    Derrick Rose has committed to sign with the Cleveland Cavaliers and completed his physical exam today, league sources tell The Vertical.

    In the unlikely event Melo would go to OKC, if want Ferguson in the deal, either over Abrines or Jerami or instead of the pick. He’s younger than those guys, cheaper than Abrines and cost-controlled longer than both. And he could grow as part of the core. Sure, we’d be pretty long on 2-guards but he’s a young asset and then we would surely flip Lee?

    He’s legit and has been climbing the ranks. Just because he has a history with Steve Mills and Isiah doesn’t mean he’s definitely a loser.

    And coming out of the Spurs organization doesn’t guarantee that Sean Marks will be terrific, but I’ll take that bet at even money.

    I agree with your statement, but it’s a warning sign. 🙂

    Shams Charania?Verified account
    Derrick Rose has committed to sign with the Cleveland Cavaliers and completed his physical exam today, league sources tell The Vertical.

    Supposed to be a 1 year deal for $2.1 million.

    Somewhere, Ron Baker is chuckling.

    @Ben R

    Melo IS a bad contract. And it makes perfect sense to swap Melo’s bad contract out for another one due to the bad blood PJ created with him. His presence will be a constant distraction. If you can trade him and cut some salary and get even some mediocre picks/prospects, that’s a win from the Knicks perspective. Is it the best deal the Knicks can get? Who knows. But it’s better than doing nothing.

    Supposed to be a 1 year deal for $2.1 million.

    Wow, that’s gotta be humbling for a guy like Rose. LOL. I love it.

    Supposed to be a 1 year deal for $2.1 million.

    That’s exactly 10% of what that joker made last year.

    Never forget: Phil Jackson sucked.

    That’s exactly 10% of what that joker made last year.

    Never forget: Phil Jackson sucked.

    The whole point of taking Rose was the cap space we would have this year when that contract expired – that the incompetents that replaced Phil used on Hardaway and Baker.

    The whole point of taking Rose was the cap space we would have this year when that contract expired – that the incompetents that replaced Phil used on Hardaway and Baker.

    Yeah, no.

    Phil acquired Rose because he thought he needed a penetrating point guard because Triangle. Let’s not whitewash Phil’s shitty ass moves.

    Melo to OKC?
    That would be worth tuning in to watch Melo and Westbrook fight over the ball. ISO Kings showdown

    Now, now knickerbloggers. No fighting. There’s plenty of incompetence to go around.

    Dolan hands out jobs to incompetent people like Oprah hands out cars

    “Pau actually had a really good year. Looks like he was one of their better defenders”

    lol thats not true. whatever metrics you are using are probably inflating his numbers by playing with kawhi and other good defenders

    “The whole point of taking Rose was the cap space we would have this year when that contract expired – that the incompetents that replaced Phil used on Hardaway and Baker.”

    Ha, Brilliant! Pass me a Guinness

    >Phil acquired Rose because he thought he needed a penetrating point guard because Triangle. Let’s not whitewash Phil’s shitty ass moves.<

    That deal was not very complicated.

    He wanted an upgrade from Calderon (and to appease Melo). He saw a relatively risk free way to accomplish that and free up a large sum of cap space if it didn't work. Personally, I wasn't thrilled with the idea because I thought Rose was washed, liked Lopez, and was till holding out hope for Grant. But he never would have made the deal other than the fact that he would have had a ton of space to use this summer if Rose didn't work out. Think of as a cap space rental with some small chance that Rise would recover his best form.

    That’s the cap space the new nitwits went 0-2 on.

    There was nothing wrong with that deal.

    It was the follow up deal of giving Noah 4 years that was 1 of his 2 significant mistakes. Two years would have fine as another gamble, but 4 was crazy.

    Um, Phil wanted to resign Rose. Don’t sit there and tell me that he was interested in cap space with that deal. He would’ve ended up offering waaaay more than the 1 year, 2.1 million Cleveland gave him.

    Pau has aged like a fine wine–he had one of his best seasons this past year, and while I wouldn’t have given him that contract due to his age, if he sustains similar levels of productivity he’s certainly worth it.

    He’s good on defense 1. Because he’s improved his effort level and awareness on that end over the years (he rates as a plus defender on literally every stat, regardless of whether the stat is box score based or +/- based) and 2. Because defensive rebounding is a part of defensive productivity, and he’s amazing at rebounding in general.

    lol thats not true. whatever metrics you are using are probably inflating his numbers by playing with kawhi and other good defenders

    Look, I’m not about to go through and watch 80 Spurs games and breakdown Pau’s defense play-by-play. I don’t have that kind of time. What I do know is that all the metrics I’ve seen have Pau grading out as a great defender and one of the better one’s on the team. Maybe he’s not, there’s plenty of issues with defensive numbers, but he graded out as a superstar player last year by any defensive or composite metric I’ve looked at.

    Strat, when are you coming up to Saratoga? Can we send messages on here? I still want to meet you at the track when you do.

    Just for the record, while there’s no way Noah can justify his salary or the 4 year contract, I think it’s possible he’s going to play some productive basketball this year. Of course, I may be the only person on earth besides him that thinks that, but I’d make it 50% that he plays 57-62 games (10 suspended & 10-15 missed) at a higher average level than last year.

    From what I gather his rehab is going very well. There was a relatively short period of time last year when he finally got in shape and hadn’t hurt his hamstring yet where he was actually playing well. If his hamstring holds up, I think he can be productive when the Knicks need someone a little stronger than KP in the middle.

    BTW, from what I can gather, a major sticking point between Phil and KP’s camp involved Rose. Phil made it rather clear (via Charley Rose) he was interested in resigning Rose after being impressed with his exit interview, and the report was that KP and Rose did not get along – as was abundantly clear to anyone who watched them play and interact together the past season. My own speculation is that this issue, along with KP’s loathing of Rambis, did as much to get Phil fired as any issue he had with KP. So basically Rose can thank KP for the market bottoming out on his services because we were the only serious bidders for his services out there who would have raised his price. But instead we took a bit of the money he’d have made from Phil and gave it to Tim Hardaway Jr/ Ron Baker.

    Strat, when are you coming up to Saratoga? Can we send messages on here? I still want to meet you at the track when you do.

    I’m going to be there Whitney day with some friends and then again Labor Day weekend. We could contact each other on Twitter and exchange emails. I own a small percentage of a horse through a partnership that may run in a NY Bred ALW race on Whitney day. Another one I have a piece of is running Friday. He’s a stiff, but I’m hoping for the best. lol

    Um, Phil wanted to resign Rose. Don’t sit there and tell me that he was interested in cap space with that deal. He would’ve ended up offering waaaay more than the 1 year, 2.1 million Cleveland gave him.

    Phil never said whether he intended to sign Rose or not. He just didn’t eliminate the possibility. Charlie Rosen said Rose was gone. My guess is that it would have depended on who else was available and for how much. We know for certain he would not have signed Hardaway. So more than likely he would have tried to sign one of the better available PGs that the Knicks were rumored to like using Rose’s cap space. If that failed he might have brought Rose back on a cheap contract.

    Personally, I think the Cavs got a great deal at 2.1 million. He’s not a starter anymore, but he was getting more efficient as the year went on and is WAY better than a lot of backup PGs that are making a lot more.

    Which one? I’ll bet on him for fun. Haha!

    Don’t throw away your money. The horse is The Orphan Miracle (Shooting Star Stable). It may take a miracle for him to win. I’d be thrilled if he hit the board. I’d even take a 4th. lol

    >>From a June 25th Charlie Rosen (Phil’s public mouthpiece) article titled Why Knicks should re-sign Derrick Rose.<<

    I must have missed that one because there were a couple of articles where he flat out said Rose should be gone. He does say “might”. It would have depended on the other possible options. That price would have been crazy though. If it actually happened, that would have been his 3rd major mistake.

    Phil never said whether he intended to sign Rose or not.

    From a June 25th Charlie Rosen (Phil’s public mouthpiece) article titled “Why Knicks should re-sign Derrick Rose.”

    He [Derrick Rose] does seem willing, and if he can indeed tweak his approach, the Knicks might be moved to sign him to a two-year contract at a reduced cost—say, $20-24 million…So, it stands to reason that Rose redux is the only viable solution to their short-term point guard problem.

    BTW, Phil officially “resigns” as Knicks POBO three days later.

    I must have missed that one because there were a couple of articles where he flat out said Rose should be gone. He does say “might”.

    Which articles were those?

    Which articles were those?

    I don’t remember. It was an article someone posted on Twitter, but it definitely pre-dated the one you posted.

    If you remember, it was me that kept warning that Rose might be back because Phil seemed open to the idea and there were no clear paths to a long term PG solution other than the hoped for Rubio trade. But I remember reading something from Rosen that made me think he would be gone.

    He seemed to be writing for multiple sites.

    He obviously likes Phil a lot and is supportive to a fault, but a lot of the time he talks about other media sources as if he has no information on what Phil is actually thinking. Even in the article you posted he was talking about the Rubio deal as if he had idea what actually happened. So I wonder if we give him too much credit for knowing what Phil is thinking other than his familiarity with him.

    @114 It was in the April 13th article.

    “— Trading for Derrick Rose “on an expiring contract” (emphasis mine) was a modest gamble. Perhaps he could stay healthy, return to his MVP form, and be the dynamic point guard who could invigorate the offense — any offense. And also add to the star-quality of the roster.

    On the plus side, Rose was still able to attack the basket with speed, quickness, and a remarkable ability to score a variety of tricky layups. Unfortunately, his jumper remained inadequate, he passed only under duress, and he routinely made costly mistakes on defense. His turbulent season ended with another knee surgery.

    Expect Anthony and Rose to be playing elsewhere next season.”

    Phil would have certainly used that $20M of cap space on something fucking stupid. Nobody really wants to come here unless they are way overpaid (hi, Timmeh) and Phil was very unlikely to use the cap in some creative way to acquire assets. He would have burned the $20M on the equivalent of Timmeh and Ron, I have little doubt about that.

    I don’t remember.

    So, basically, he didn’t write an article said Rose should be gone.

    So I wonder if we give him too much credit for knowing what Phil is thinking other than his familiarity with him.

    No, it was clear Phil was interested in resigning Rose. Rosen simply clarified Phil’s position, which was that the Knicks have a short-term gap at the PG position they need to fill while Frank is learning the ropes for the next few years and Rose is the imperfect but best option to fill that gap in the next two seasons. The fact that Rosen was specifically throwing out a 2 year 20-24 million dollar deal wasn’t an accidental ballpark figure from a guessing sportswriter. It came from Phil based on what he was comfortable signing Rose at.

    @116

    That wasn’t a claim that Phil wouldn’t resign Rose. It was a critique of his game and his physical condition. Moreover, stating Rose had an expiring contract wasn’t an indication that Phil wasn’t going to offer him a new one. Everything you cited here was addressed in the follow up article Rosen wrote 3 days before Phil was fired.

    Strat, I agree with you that Noah could provide some value this year. He had a lot of health issues last year and they weren’t the sort that necessarily will affect his game permanently.

    Valuing players at 5x their market value is a big part of what we do around here

    He would have burned the $20M on the equivalent of Timmeh and Ron, I have little doubt about that

    Even worse. He was willing to use a little more than half of that total to resign Rose for two more seasons.

    The whole point of taking Rose was the cap space we would have this year

    Sounds like you’re dealing out a little of the “Fake News” that you usually complain about.

    More likely, Phil was figuring on Rose and Melo leading the Knicks to a top-4 seed and then re-signing Rose with bird rights. That’s usually the mindset when trading assets and pouring tens of millions into the re-tooling of a team. (In fact if that wasn’t his expectation, that’s even more worrying than him simply being wrong about it!)

    @118

    So, basically, he didn’t write an article said Rose should be gone.

    First you accuse me of lying when I said Rosen wrote an article suggesting we should expect Rose to be gone. Then when I am kind enough to actually find it for you, it no long matters that he actually did say it. lmao

    If anything, the fact that he changed his story so strongly suggests what I said here:

    “He obviously likes Phil a lot and is supportive to a fault, but a lot of the time he talks about other media sources as if he has no information on what Phil is actually thinking. Even in the article you posted he was talking about the Rubio deal as if he had no idea what actually happened. So I wonder if we give him too much credit for knowing what Phil is thinking other than his familiarity with him”.

    There’s something called confirmation bias. You should look it up. We are done here.

    Sounds like you’re dealing out a little of the “Fake News” that you usually complain about.

    Admittedly, that sentence was not expressed well.

    My point (as I clarified later after someone else misunderstood it) was that because it was an expiring contract there was essentially no risk to the deal. The upside was Rose playing well and the downside was 20 million of cap space the following year, which of course is no downside. Without Rose being an expiring contract, that deal does not get done. It was the major point that made the deal a reasonable gamble. It did not like it, but it was reasonable.

    Valuing players at 5x their market value is a big part of what we do around here

    Player outlook according to KB:

    Tim Hardaway Jr. >>> John Starks if he didn’t ruin my childhood, and perfectly market-level
    KP >>> Dirk, but harder to guard, like if Dirk were also Jordan
    WHG >>> will make a nice trade piece someday
    2016-17 Rose >>> 2011 Rose, but bigger, faster, stronger, and definitely probably only half-raped that girl
    Baker >>> Stockton if Stockton were taller and blacker
    Jerian Grant >>> potential All-NBA Defensive Team (pre-trade), or All-NBDL Defensive Team (post-trade)
    Melo >>> depends on how much mouthwash I’ve drunk today, but mostly a good value because duh, he’s Melo
    Noah >>> high upside character guy who is a great pull-up bar so his body is right
    Lee >>> literally almost exactly above-average
    Ntilikina >>> not as skilled, athletic or talented as Dennis Smith Jr., but he could be someday, because he’s a Knick now
    James Dolan >>> not tone-deaf

    First you accuse me of lying

    I didn’t accuse you of lying, I accuse you of being wrong – which I still do and you still are.

    If anything, the fact that he changed his story so strongly suggests what I said here:

    LOL. No, it doesn’t. Again, Rosen clearly states why he (and Phil) believe the Knicks should resign Rose to a 2 yr/20-24 million dollar contract despite what they openly state to be his many shortcomings. And the reason had to do with what they saw as a major need for a PG in what is poor PG market, a lack of internal options to fill that demand, the need for a veteran presence to mentor Ntilikina, and the possibility that Rose would fall into line with Plan Triangle after his brilliant exit interview. Its all presented there if one carefully reads the Rosen article I referenced, which you apparently didn’t.

    My point (as I clarified later after someone else misunderstood it) was that because it was an expiring contract there was essentially no risk to the deal.

    Yeah, I see how one can rationalize it this way, but I think it is unlikely that Phil was seeing it that way. He had plans for the Knicks to be good last year, and for Rose and Noah (who was a satellite acquisition of the Rose trade) to be a big part of that success.

    I guess if you knew Rose would be bad, the team was going to lose a lot either way, and you had your draft pick still, there was no risk to the deal. (Except if Rose went awol and your perported “culture change” went from JR bad to Derrick Rose worse, or if guys like KP and WHG carried the team to the playoffs and Rose got signed long term because of it, or if Grant improved, or if Lopez was going to hold value…)

    I didn’t accuse you of lying, I accuse you of being wrong – which I still do and you still are.

    If I tell you I read an article, I read an article.

    If I tell you I can’t recall where I read it and you snidely tell me that means it doesn’t exist you are calling me a liar.

    Not cool dude. I am sharing information and perspective.

    I am right on the other point also. Rosen seems to indicate he didn’t know what transpired in the Rubio dealings by using other media sources to speculate. As I said, that suggests he does not always have a direct line to Phil like we often assume. That’s also why in one article he could trash Rose’s game badly and write that we should expect Rose and Melo to be gone, then hear Phil’s public comments about Rose’s exit meeting, look at the landscape, and conclude Rose might be the best option.

    Phil may very well have brought Rose back. I do not know. But Rosen does not say we should expect Rose back or that Phil was going to bring him back. He lays out the same exact case I made weeks before him when I said I was afraid he might bring him back. It was logical to bring him back even if “we” all agreed it would have been a terrible idea.

    @130

    There’s no question he was hoping the team would be compete for a playoff spot and Rose/Noah/Lee were his attempt at it. But the fact that Rose was an expiring contract was widely discussed at the time as making it a low risk gamble that some thought was worth a shot (I did not). If Rose was on a 3 year deal there’s no way he makes that trade.

    On a less controversial note:

    Mike Rice?Verified account
    @mikerice6
    It looks like blazers will be part of Knicks 3team trade of Carmelo. No they won’t get Carmelo. Stay tuned
    9:52 PM – 24 Jul 2017

    If I tell you I read an article, I read an article.

    LOL. I didn’t say you lied about reading the article. I said you didn’t read it carefully, a problem you are clearly having with my posts.

    That’s also why in one article he could trash Rose’s game badly and write that we should expect Rose and Melo to be gone, then hear Phil’s public comments about Rose’s exit meeting, look at the landscape, and conclude Rose might be the best option.

    This is a false equivalency. Trashing Rose’s game isn’t the same as saying that Phil wouldn’t sign him, especially if Phil felt that there weren’t better options available internally or on the market just like me saying you’re wrong because you missed the point of Rosen’s article isn’t the same as me calling you a liar.

    But Rosen does not say we should expect Rose back or that Phil was going to bring him back.

    Rosen said the Knicks should resign Rose – its the actual title of his article. He even provides a price range and concludes that this is the best course of action available to Phil at the time. Its clear what his message is.

    Of course, I may be the only person on earth besides him that thinks that,

    I think it as well. Doesn’t make it a good contract – it was a terrible contract – but I was down for 2 years, with the idea that Noah would provide similar value to what he provided in the past. It’ll be interesting to see if he ends up doing that. Even though, AGAIN, terrible contract even if he does.

    I also agree that Phil was all about flexibility. Every move he made was protecting against risk, except for his draft picks. Which is rational, though given his seeming inability to accurately assess skills and value, not in the end all that effective.

    You will all regret the day you doubted the French Wrench.

    Spicy board today…..(grabs popcorn.)

    Re:Rose

    That’s a great sign by Cleveland. He’s 100x better than the corpse of fat Deron Williams

    The sporting world seems to always undervalue things they haven’t actually seen for themselves. For example, Smith could score well in Summer League. Ntilikina didn’t play. Therefore Ntilikina is worse and we should have picked Smith. In reality, the fact that Smith was impressive in summer league, despite being picked 9th, along with some other high draft picks being impressive, is evidence that the pundits were right, this was a strong draft class, not evidence that Ntilikina is bad. If he was equivalent in potential to Smith before summer league, Smith’s performance actually suggests that Ntilikina is also very good.

    I am not at all eager to trade him. He seems potentially like just what the Knicks need at guard.

    Don’t use language like that on this site. That’s bannable behavior if repeated. I’ll allow that you didn’t know it was offensive. Now you do.

    If he was equivalent in potential to Smith before summer league, Smith’s performance actually suggests that Ntilikina is also very good.

    No it doesn’t. Perception, in the case of performance, is completely unrelated to reality. Just because experts believed they were roughly equivalent picks doesn’t make them equivalent.

    That said, I think Key is going to be great, and I’m really psyched Phil lasted long enough to pick him.

    The sporting world seems to always undervalue things they haven’t actually seen for themselves. For example, Smith could score well in Summer League. Ntilikina didn’t play. Therefore Ntilikina is worse and we should have picked Smith. In reality, the fact that Smith was impressive in summer league, despite being picked 9th, along with some other high draft picks being impressive, is evidence that the pundits were right, this was a strong draft class, not evidence that Ntilikina is bad. If he was equivalent in potential to Smith before summer league, Smith’s performance actually suggests that Ntilikina is also very good.

    The reason some people (me anyway) preferred Smith is because Ntilikina has never really played the point outside of a few games in an under-18 tournament. It’s not a matter of just not having seen it- he actually hasn’t done it. He was more of a combo guard and yes, a lot of scouts see him as having point guard potential- I just thought Smith was a much safer bet if you’re looking to draft a point. Now if the reports are true that Smith’s camp refused to show the Knicks his medical file (along with canceling his workout) then it’s kind of a moot point- I wouldn’t have taken him then myself. I’m hoping Frank winds up far better than Smith but I doubt he’s going to ready to play much point next year.

    Frank’s problem is that Sports Center doesn’t run highlight reels for players who fight over screens to get a hand in their man’s face, but they do for players like Smith who’ll show off by forcing a power dunk he missed in a game. I just pray our new FO recognizes the difference.

    Few people at 6’6″ can play the point. I doubt Frank is one of them, his scouting report says he has difficulty turning the corner. I see Frank as a SG, maybe a combo guard. In either scenario I doubt he warrants his draft position. Unless he’s on another level defensively, he was drafted where he was for his pg potential, potential that seems suspect whenever it’s suggested for an unusually tall pg.

    If you preferred Smith to Ntilikina before Summer League, there isn’t any reason from summer leagure data for you to change your mind. My point is that a lot of people seem think worse of Ntilikina because Smith looked good. That is false logic.

    Personally, I have never seen either of them play, but I trust the Knick’s staff of talent evaluators as much as I trust any other expert. And since I want two-way players, I am happy with our pick, even if he isn’t a proven point guard.

    Unless he’s on another level defensively, he was drafted where he was for his pg potential, potential that seems suspect whenever it’s suggested for an unusually tall pg.

    I disagree. He was drafted because he projected to play either guard position and defend positions 1-3 with upside potential. That kind of versatility is very valuable in today’s game.

    I disagree. He was drafted because he projected to play either guard position and defend positions 1-3 with upside potential. That kind of versatility is very valuable in today’s game.

    Right, but I don’t think he can play either guard position. Most 6’6″ players can’t play pg. From everything I’ve heard he isn’t quick enough to play pg. Thus, he isn’t worth his draft position. This doesn’t mean he’ll be bad, he could be an elite defender in the Battier/Tony Allen (plus 3p shooting) mold. That’s a very valuable player, just not as valuable as a dominant pg.

    My hope is that the scouting dept has some knowledge of Ntilikina that is not evident from his european game film, and I have to give the benefit of the doubt to the guys who found KP and Willy. From what I’ve seen, he doesn’t look like he will be even a very good NBA player, let alone a great one, sort of a jack of all trades, master of none. My guess is that if he played in the NCAA as a freshman, he’d have gone mid-to late first round, like around Bam-level. In other words, he benefitted by not playing against peers, and not being available for the combine and private workouts.

    But he is 18 and maybe he works himself into a good/great player. I would have taken DSjr, Mitchell, and either Collins over him.

    I kinda disagree here.

    Battier for example was drafted 6th in a somewhat weak draft and Id argue he was definitely good value, I’d be happy to draft a guy with great work ethic, great defense and a pretty good shot in the 8th position.

    plus, I think people are too caught up in the speed thing. Derrick Rose was really fast, and he couldn’t run an offense too. I would argue that court vision, ability to change speeds and use strength and size to get to positions in the court and basketball IQ is even more important than being able to turn the corner against PGs in the league, and those are all things Ntilikina was praised for in scouting reports so far.

    If he’s a good shooter and good defender right away he’ll earn minutes really fast at both guard positions, and hes still 18 with lots of room to grow with his body. Having a great first step and being super quick is hardly indicative of a good Point Guard, as long as he’s fast enough to run a fastbreak or to get off a screen and go to the rim, it’s fine.

    and again, I think you guys once more vastly underrate European competition while overrrating NCAA ball.

    The risky thing about Ntikina is no one knows how he plays. Yes he is 18 with a lot of upside but he could also be a bust. Trading him now for Irving could be a lopsided in our favor if Ntikina ends up a bust. Do we see him to be someone as close as Irving in the future? Would we prefer Ntikina or our next years pick? Or we don’t want Irving?

    Frank played very sparingly for a lower level Euro team and played mostly off the ball. He looked totally non-explosive and was not good at much of anything offensively but spot-up 3’s. Lots of euro players at that level are just older lousy ex-NCAA players. The teams Strasbourg plays may be cohesive but the players are lousy. Teams like Real Madrid would destroy Strasbourg.

    Are you seriously saying that DSjr, Fox, Ball or Fultz would not have played more and better on that particular French team than Frank did?

    Defense-oriented point guards aren’t in vogue right now, but I could see Ntilikina making it as a Derek Harper type player: maybe not the most blazing playmaker, but a guy who can make the right passes and shoot a little bit while causing havoc on the defensive end. I wouldn’t mind watching a guy like that. He might not be the ankle breaker™ of our dreams but he does have some strengths.

    Thus, he isn’t worth his draft position

    Assuming you’re correct, what do you think is worth an 8th overall selection?

    I guess getting a Shane Battier type player at #8 is ok, but what if 5 or more players selected 9-20 are all-star level players? And Frank is a long way from being Shane Battier right now.

    It’s crossed my mind that Frank could have played summer league but management did not want to see him look bad vs. scrubs. At least the shit the Knicks are getting for passing over Smith Jr. is somewhat cloaked in uncertainty at this point. He better look like a legit NBA prospect in preseason.

    I do like that he is the son of Rwandan refugees, so at least he’s highly rootable.

    Frank played very sparingly for a lower level Euro team and played mostly off the ball.

    Those guys would dust your top NCAA college team. Fran Fraschilla, someone with actual NCAA coaching experience who follows the European game said so, and I tend to agree. In fact, if Frank played in the NCAA he’d have been a lead guard and done well there considering the more stringent hand check foul rules in that league (and the NBA for that matter) than the ones enforced in the French League. Reaching in is far more common in that league than what is allowed here in the States.

    I don’t think so z-man, no.

    Brandon Jennings went to Italy as a top high school prospect and averaged 18 minutes per game; the same as Frank last season. Granted, it was in a stronger league, but he sucked, hard.

    and ACC players like DSJr faced are amazing? The vast majority of them, if they’re lucky, will be playing in Strasbourg when they leave college.

    The kid hasn’t played a single practice yet, and you are all freaking out already. Let him suck in a stretch of games at least to count him out.

    and in what world 5 guys drafted 9-20 in the Draft become all-stars?

    I’m really not convinced about this whole point guard and size argument. It is true that most 6’6″ guys play another position but that is often because they are big enough to play another position, not because it’s impossible for a 6’6″ guy to play point. Ntilikina is big for a point guard, but bigger guys have successfully played point. It’s more important that he is smart about passing the ball and that he can protect the ball while bringing it up court. That doesn’t necessarily require quickness.

    We can always speculate about why the Knicks picked him, but I doubt it was because “we have to get a point guard”. It’s more likely they just went with the best available player, with a bias towards upside rather than proven performance, which is appropriate for a team as lousy as the Knicks.

    I would argue that court vision, ability to change speeds and use strength and size to get to positions in the court and basketball IQ is even more important than being able to turn the corner against PGs in the league

    Except Ntilikina isn’t great at changing speeds yet, doesn’t appear that strong, doesn’t yet have the handle to do these things, and doesn’t seem to be able to get where he wants on the court. Granted he’s still young, but he’s not getting any faster or any shiftier at this point. If he can’t do these things, then he’ll struggle to draw the defensive attention necessary to free up other players.

    Even in the U18 Euro games, he found success simply by pulling up from beyond the 3pt arc and firing away. That’s not as likely to work in the NBA when he doesn’t have as huge of a size advantage.

    Except Ntilikina isn’t great at changing speeds yet, doesn’t appear that strong, doesn’t yet have the handle to do these things, and doesn’t seem to be able to get where he wants on the court.

    According to advanced metrics he performed better than average relative to his older league mates in the French League as just an 18 year old.

    I’m less worried about Frank’s inability to turn the corner than I am about his high and loose handle. There are plenty of historically great PGs who weren’t blazing fast (Nash, Stockton, older CP3); there are no great PGs who have poor handle. Frank’s isn’t *bad* but it needs a lot of work, especially given his height.

    If the scouting department signed off on him, I’m fine with Frank being drafted over Smith even if Smith is (at least from our perspective) the safer bet

    I’m sorry, but I’d still rather trust the one thing in this franchise that has worked well in the past couple of years, which is the scouting department.

    If the guy was only able to pull up from 3 against weaker defenders and the same scouting department that found Willy and KP apparently loved him, I don’t know what to say.

    Battier for example was drafted 6th in a somewhat weak draft and Id argue he was definitely good value, I’d be happy to draft a guy with great work ethic, great defense and a pretty good shot in the 8th position.

    Right, but we can’t assume that he’ll be a Battier level player, it’s more of the general mold I see him fitting in. Again, he has the measurables in height in wingspan to be a shutdown defender, that doesn’t make him one. Like many players, having the right height/wingspan is enough to get drafted though.

    Assuming you’re correct, what do you think is worth an 8th overall selection?

    I don’t know, tbh. I don’t know enough about the players in the draft. I guess I’m just saying that Dennis Smith, Jr. seemed like a better selection to me. Obviously we shouldn’t have drafted Smith if we weren’t allowed to look at his medical records, though.

    Ultimately, when it comes to Frank, I see many of the different factors that I think causes front offices to overrate players. Namely, size/wingspan and pg potential. Everyone always fantasizes about having the next Magic Johnson, to me it seems like most of these players under perform. Frank fits these prejudices so I’m skeptical of him. Especially given his inability to break down the defense.

    And looking at Dennis Smith Jr. you don’t see factors that lead front offices to overrate players?

    Highlight reel dunks, high scoring numbers against mostly bad competition, bad defensive habits and lightning fast speed?

    I don’t get the bias against European players that persists among American NBA fans. If you look at the past 3-4 years the best prospects are coming from there and not the NCAA. Jokic, Giannis, Gobert, KP, Willy > KAT, Embiid, Turner, Wiggins, Brogdon. There are legitimate concerns about Frank’s game, namely his ball-handling ability, but the league he played in shouldn’t be a concern.

    Ultimately, when it comes to Frank, I see many of the different factors that I think causes front offices to overrate players. Namely, size/wingspan and pg potential.

    This is true. These are factors that FOs overrate. But the appeal to Frank is that he also has a proven basketball IQ. He won the U18 championship as the tournament’s MVP. He went to the French League Finals as a legitimate rotational player during their playoff run. This isn’t Micheal Carter Williams, Iman Shumpert or Elfrid Payton. He’s already shown an ability to adapt to a different role in an offensive system that doesn’t revolve around his talents as an above average player.

    According to advanced metrics he performed better than average relative to his older league mates in the French League as just an 18 year old.

    Yeah, Frank could still be really good. But I see people calling him a potential point guard, and I strongly disagree with that perception. PG is more important in the NBA than SG, so I think his stock drops if we assume he’s a SG instead of a pg. Plus, as a SG his length is less crazy than as a PG (though admittedly still very impressive). Maybe Frank gets drafted in a similar spot even if we assume he’ll never be a PG. I’m fine with it then, but his combo guard/pg appeal has been hyped up quite a bit which makes me doubt that’s the case.

    On a side note I know it applies to other people, but I don’t have that bias against European leagues. I generally believe they’re better than the NCAA.

    But I see people calling him a potential point guard, and I strongly disagree with that perception.

    I don’t see how you can disagree with saying Frank has PG potential. It hasn’t been proven one way or the other. He hasn’t even played a game, let alone gone through a career development path. I mean Elfrid Payton is just learning to play PG and he’s a 22-23 year old player entering his fourth NBA season. How are you so sure either way?

    I don’t see how you can disagree with saying Frank has PG potential. It hasn’t been proven one way or the other. He hasn’t even played a game, let alone gone through a career development path. I mean Elfrid Payton is just learning to play PG and he’s a 22-23 year old player entering his fourth NBA season. How are you so sure either way?

    Yeah adjusting to being an NBA PG later on isn’t that uncommon, maybe Frank does that. The difference is, if memory serves correctly, that Elfrid Payton was touted for his athleticism, quickness, and ball handling. Elfrid could get by people, Frank can’t.

    The difference is, if memory serves correctly, that Elfrid Payton was touted for his athleticism, quickness, and ball handling.

    I dunno about his ball handling. He averaged 20.1 turnover percentage in three college seasons.

    Those guys would dust your top NCAA college team. Fran Fraschilla, someone with actual NCAA coaching experience who follows the European game said so, and I tend to agree. In fact, if Frank played in the NCAA he’d have been a lead guard and done well there considering the more stringent hand check foul rules in that league (and the NBA for that matter) than the ones enforced in the French League. Reaching in is far more common in that league than what is allowed here in the States.

    First Fraschilla’s not exactly unbiased- he’s ESPN’s Euro guy- he’s not going to say Euroball sucks- not that I think it does, just that Fraschilla has a vested interest in promoting the league. I think even the best French teams would have trouble dealing with the athleticism of a team like Kentucky- they might win by playing smarter but I think it’d be very competitive.

    Two- the hand check rule is going to work both ways for Frank. Maybe it helps him on offense but he committed an ungodly 4.5 fouls per 36 in a league where guards don’t really attack off of the dribble. What’s going to happen when he has to guard really quick guys who are looking to penetrate all the time? In our division alone he’ll face Thomas, Wall, Lowry, and Lin- all guys who will go at him mercilessly. He’s got huge adjustments to make on both sides of the ball whatever you think about the quality of the league he played.

    I hate that the time zone I’m in means I miss the chance to get involved in a lot of these debates in real time.

    I’ll say this – one of the arguments I find frustrating about the draft is when people assume a pick is bad because players who later turn out to be better we’re picked later. Even the best scouts and draft experts are only right some of the time and less often as you move down the draft. Before this draft most people on this board agreed Mitchell would be a reach and preferred frank. Almost every draft analyst agreed – as by all accounts did most front offices.

    Frank was drafted right around where most people agreed he should and would be drafted. If someone like Mitchell goes on to have a better career it doesn’t mean we blew the draft. You have to evaluate the picks you made not the 58 you didn’t. If frank becomes a legit starter-level guard (1 or 2) who is a plus defender and efficient scorer that’s at least par. If he turns out to be better on offense and to be legitimately able to play point full time that’s a birdie. If he makes all-star level it’s an eagle.

    First Fraschilla’s not exactly unbiased- he’s ESPN’s Euro guy- he’s not going to say Euroball sucks-

    Fran is actually a pretty good guy to make a comparison between both leagues. He works both as an analyst for Big 12 basketball games, so he regularly sees college competition, commentates on FIBA tournament games and he scouts the European league players for ESPN in the draft. He’s got one foot in each basketball circle. I don’t think there is a guy out there in the media who is doing both like him and he says the better teams in Spain and France would shellac a top NCAA team.

    Maybe it helps him on offense but he committed an ungodly 4.5 fouls per 36 in a league where guards don’t really attack off of the dribble. What’s going to happen when he has to guard really quick guys who are looking to penetrate all the time?

    I actually predicted that Frank would fare better on offense and worse on defense than is generally believed because of this difference between the NBA and Euroleagues. Foul trouble will be a problem for him, but he’ll still contribute to defense in other ways – especially as a help defender.

    You will all see. Frank Ntilikina’s ball handling and decision making will shock you guys. The kid can flat out play basketball, and he has a swagger about his game offensively. Defensively he will develop into a gameplan wrecker on the perimeter because he is smart, his length is unbelievable, and he’s relentless. If we don’t pull off a trade for Kyrie Irving he’s my bet to start over Ron Baker.

    Those guys would dust your top NCAA college team. Fran Fraschilla, someone with actual NCAA coaching experience who follows the European game said so, and I tend to agree

    Uh there are 30 yr old men on those teams. How does that help us here?

    I don’t get the bias against European players that persists among American NBA fans.

    You keep saying this stupid shit. What bias????? Celtics fans are hyping there guy, Saric was hyped…Miritic was hyped. Teodosic, Rubio and on and on. Stop saying stupid shit.

    The most you here is that there isn’t good film on a guy which was very true about Greek freak and KP and a host of others

    Uh there are 30 yr old men on those teams. How does that help us here?

    Help us? It doesn’t. But it sure does make the French League competition Frank played against superior to the NCAA’s.

    What bias?????

    Its like er doesn’t read the thread and then finds the most adequate post to make an uninformed comment on.

    Frank played very sparingly for a lower level Euro team and played mostly off the ball. He looked totally non-explosive and was not good at much of anything offensively but spot-up 3’s. Lots of euro players at that level are just older lousy ex-NCAA players. The teams Strasbourg plays may be cohesive but the players are lousy.

    Next time try and read the thread.

    I said “lower level Euro team” meaning that it was not as strong as many other Euro teams, sort of like a lower-level conference in the NCAA.

    There’s plenty of film of Ntilikina, just like there was of Porzingis. There’s also DX analysis on him. In looking at these films, I am far less impressed with Frank than I was with Kristaps. We are all amateur scouts here and if I were advising the Knicks front office, I would have told them to draft Smith. But since the scouting for the Knicks has been pretty darn good, I’ll defer for now an hope to high heaven that I am wrong (just like I hoped that I was right about Kristaps.) But my call right now is that he will have an inferior career to DSjr, Mitchell, both Colllins, and probably Monk and other that we passed over, and that he will not be an impact player in the NBA.

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