Knicks Morning News (2017.07.25)

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose signs one-year minimum deal with Cavaliers
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 7:26:08 PM)

    Former New York Knicks guard Derrick Rose agreed to a one-year, $2.1 million deal with the Cleveland Cavaliers on Monday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Daily News Live: Can the Knicks trade for Kyrie Irving?
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 5:47:11 PM)

    The guys discuss the likelihood of Kyrie Irving being traded to the Knicks in light of the recent rumors of his desire to leave Cleveland.

  • [SNY Knicks] Report: Carmelo Anthony, Thunder ‘circling each other’
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 1:15:07 PM)

    Anthony is reportedly willing to waive his no-trade clause to go to the Cavaliers or Rockets.

  • [SNY Knicks] JRSportBrief: Will Knicks pair Kyrie Irving with Kristaps Porzingis?
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 12:30:02 PM)

    In the latest installment of JRSportBrief on SNY.tv, JR discusses why it’ll be difficult for the Knicks to land the Cavs’ Kyrie Irving.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks, Dotson reportedly agree to three-year deal
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 8:13:43 AM)

    The Knicks and second-round pick Damyean Dotson have agreed to a three-year deal, according to multiple reports.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose agrees to deal with Cavaliers, source says
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 8:36:00 PM)

    Derrick Rose agrees to deal with Cavaliers, source says

  • [NYPost] Thunder emerge to shake up Carmelo Anthony trade market
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 8:44:37 AM)

    It has been 104 days since the Knicks played their last regular-season game, officially ending their season. It only seems like it has been 10,000 days and then some. And that’s largely because of the Carmelo Anthony situation, which on Monday saw a new team, the Thunder, identified as the latest suitor for the 10-time…

  • [NYTimes] On Basketball: In Kyrie Irving’s Revelation, a Moment of Reflection
    (Tuesday, July 25, 2017 1:08:13 AM)

    Irving’s request that he be traded so he can escape the long shadow of LeBron James mirrors the Bill Parcells-Bill Belichick saga of the Jets in 2000.

  • [NYTimes] Hard Work in South Korea Pays Off for Jonquel Jones and W.N.B.A’s Sun
    (Tuesday, July 25, 2017 12:01:52 AM)

    Jones’s All Star-caliber play for Connecticut partly reflects her off-season stint with an overseas league known for its rigorous two-a-day practices.

  • [NYTimes] Derrick Rose and Cavaliers Are Said to Agree to One-Year Deal
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 11:59:13 PM)

    Rose, the former league M.V.P., could give the Cavs some insurance in the backcourt after his disappointing one-year tenure with the Knicks.

  • [NYTimes] John Kundla, Winning Coach of Fledgling Lakers, Dies at 101
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 2:09:34 PM)

    Kundla led the Minneapolis team to five titles in the N.B.A. and its immediate precursor.

  • [NYDN] Josh Longstaff is lead candidate to become Hawks’ G-League coach
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 8:27:55 PM)

    Former Knicks assistant coach Josh Longstaff has emerged as the leading candidate to become coach of the Hawks’ G-League team.

  • [NYDN] Rose signing with Cavs adds layer to Kyrie Irving trade drama
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 8:24:32 PM)

    Will Derrick Rose turn out to be Kyrie Irving’s backup or the most underpaid starting point guard in the league?

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose signing with Cavs amid Kyrie Irving trade request
    (Monday, July 24, 2017 3:14:24 PM)

    Derrick Rose is reportedly teaming up with LeBron James after Kyrie Irving requested a trade out of Cleveland.

  • 226 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.25)”

    I for one am happy that the Knicks took Frank over DSJr because it showed they weren’t totally fully of shit when they talked about prioritizing defense. That he shot a higher clip from a more distant 3 point line and earned his way into the starting lineup for one of the 2 best teams in the French league where young players usually remain nailed to the bench are good signs.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if DSJr puts up better numbers and gets more widespread recognition for his play while Frank fits in better to a team concept and is more impactful in winning games.

    FWIW Mike Rice, who I guess used to be the Blazers’ color commentator until last month, says the Blazers ARE going to be the 3rd team in a Melo deal and that they’re not getting Melo. Sounds like maybe the old NYK/HOU/POR deal might happen.

    I Wonder what the qualifications are to become an ESPN NBA insider. Can’t be too hard a job to get because this guy Chris Haynes espn nba insider went on the radio this morning and said that 1. Derek Rose is a borderline all star and 2. That the celtics should trade Isaiah Thomas jaylen brown jae crowder and a first round pick to the cavs for kyrie Irving. Idk which statement is worse.

    FWIW Mike Rice, who I guess used to be the Blazers’ color commentator until last month, says the Blazers ARE going to be the 3rd team in a Melo deal and that they’re not getting Melo. Sounds like maybe the old NYK/HOU/POR deal might happen.

    Yeah then there’s some guy in Houston who tweeted a couple of days ago that a Melo deal would be done by 5:45pm today. I hope if any Kyrie deal is no longer possible it isn’t because Melo told NYK he’d never accept a deal to Cavs. I didn’t think it would be possible for Melo to screw us worse on his departure than he did on his arrival but that would qualify. Anyway, here’s my list in order of attractiveness and I fear the last one might be what actually happens:

    (1) Kyrie for Melo/protected 1st/take on bad contract
    (2) Kyrie for Melo/2 protected firsts
    (3) Harkless/Leonard
    (4) Anderson/Hartenstein/Qi/2020 pick/2nd round pick
    (5) Harkless/Turner
    (6) Crabbe/Leonard
    (7) Turner/Leonard (Isiah and Mills actually like Turner and he our starting 1)

    @4

    I know this is a kinda dangerous thing to say in advance of any potential trade because we’re talking about the knicks, but the trade you fear happening (melo for turner and leonard) is just too dire. I mean, c’mon, 2 bad contracts, no draft picks, no youthful players with significant upside, and no true point guard? This doesn’t seem plausible even for the knicks

    Is it just me or is anyone else sorta….optimistic about Scott Perry?

    Bringing this Frank quote from yesterday up… I feel the same way.

    Just look at our approach to Melo. I like the patience. We all know how good he isn’t, but he is not a worthless asset and I love that we’re waiting for a market to develop.

    In the beginning it was Houston or nothing. And if Phil were in charge, we might have made that trade and taken Anderson back… or bought him out and taken a five year cap hit. Now Portland is in the fray. Oklahoma City is popping up.

    I actually expect us to come out of this OK, and I can’t recall the last time I ever thought the Knicks would come out of anything ok.

    This doesn’t seem plausible even for the knicks

    I actually expect us to come out of this OK, and I can’t recall the last time I ever thought the Knicks would come out of anything ok.

    Don’t do this to yourselves guys… Never underestimate the institutional stupidity of the Knicks.

    It’s possible Mills and Isiah could like Evan as a player and believe he could be the NYK starting 1 guard for a while. That’s why we need our GM to have a strong analytics orientation – to rescue us from trap players. I still think NYK want Harkless but it might end up we take all 3 of Harkless/Turner/Leonard in a deal. I’d prefer straight Houston 2 team trade if that were the deal.

    Yeah, adding Portland just so we can pay Evan freaking Turner instead of Ryan Anderson would be very Knicksy.

    If they want him to start at the 1 I honestly think it would be better to straight up start Baker, he tries at least.

    Geez, why do we even bring up hypothetical like Turner at the 1? Can we at least stick around in the neighborhood of plausible scenarios?

    On the fakenews front, this was from yesterday’s thread and may be is being referenced in #4.

    “Some dude named Burt_Steele is tweeting that Melo will be a Rocket by 6PM today. Supposedly he broke the CP3 news first, and that he may know Morey. Other than that, he has 170 followers, and tweeted 3 times in the past 2 years. Take what you like from that.”

    As for Mike Rice isn’t he the guy who was fired from Rutgers for getting all grabby and yelling in this players faces? I don’t know that he would be a source of anything intelligent.

    I for one am happy that the Knicks took Frank over DSJr because it showed they weren’t totally fully of shit when they talked about prioritizing defense. That he shot a higher clip from a more distant 3 point line and earned his way into the starting lineup for one of the 2 best teams in the French league where young players usually remain nailed to the bench are good signs.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if DSJr puts up better numbers and gets more widespread recognition for his play while Frank fits in better to a team concept and is more impactful in winning games.

    I do like that at least the Knicks drafted for a guy who at least looks like he can play defense. I don’t know how much you can take away from his 3 point shooting. Frank attempted fewer 3s than Dennis Smith made last year, and I’m not confident that Dennis Smith is a good shooter. (what I’m saying is if Dennis had missed like 4 more shots people would be talking about him being a borderline shooter)

    Geez, why do we even bring up hypothetical like Turner at the 1? Can we at least stick around in the neighborhood of plausible scenarios?

    Yeah you’re right. It’s more implausible than say:
    – paying Baker 4.5/yr and giving him a player option
    – starting Baker who’s not able to break down defense or execute a PnR or do anything on offense
    – starting a 19yo who’s only experience at the 1 is against French teenagers

    Anyway Evan could play the 1 and 3 positions. We’ve been presuming that the deal was Harkless/Leonard and we were trying to find a 4th team to take Leonard. That make senses for us. But it’s very possible the deal was Harkless/Turner/Leonard and we were trying to find a 4th team to take Leonard. That’s the trade I would be pushing if I were Portland.

    In terms of Baker’s aptitude at the 1, ‘ll defer to Hornacek. His deal is hardly consequential. Turner is an established low-efficiency chucker with thousands of unproductive minutes under his belt. No one in their right mind would want him at the 1 or any other position on his asinine, untradable contract. Just keep Melo and play him at the one, he’d be better than Turner.

    Here’s a possible TRADE which I think Mills & Co would do:

    Houston……..Melo
    Knicks………..Harkless, Turner, Leonard, Houston 2020 pick
    Portland…….Anderson, KOQ, 4 non-guaranteed contracts

    That would an horrendous trade. Two untradable contacts and a low first round pick.

    if we’re taking turner + leonard we should be getting first rd picks from houston and portland…

    I’m not saying it’s a good trade, I’m saying I think Mills would do it because IMO they don’t look at Turner as being such a negative. But how about if we added Hartenstein and 2nd round pick – would you do it?

    Houston……..Melo
    Knicks………..Harkless, Turner, Leonard, Houston 2020 pick, Hartenstein, Houston 2nd round pick
    Portland…….Anderson, KOQ, 4 non-guaranteed contracts

    @13 – Let’s start with this statement:

    – starting a 19yo who’s only experience at the 1 is against French teenagers

    Frank Ntilikina played in a MEN’s league. Dennis Smith Jr. played against kids. In his last game (a loss to Elan Chacon) he faced John Roberson, age 28 in the FIBA finals. Prior to that it was 30-year old Walter Hodge for Chalon/Saone. I can go on.

    More important, why does it matter what we get, as long as it’s not a stupid contract that ties our hands going forward or a trade where we give away a young asset that we control. The Knicks should try to win, in 2021-22, not now.

    If we take on Turner AND Leonard, we better get 2 firsts, that’s all I know. Ideally, we get Harkless, Leonard and picks out of this. I’m guessing that Turner is off the table bc he’s over 25. Still no point guards in sight though.. why does this organization hate point guards so much?

    On what evidence do you base your assertion that Mills doesn’t look at Turner as a negative?

    On what evidence do you base your assertion that Mills doesn’t look at Turner as a negative?

    He hired Isiah and he listens to Isiah. Plus he overpayed Timmy.

    The only reason I could ever think of why anyone would see Turner as not a negative is if Mills wants to show Knicks fans that it can, in fact, be worse than having Derrick Rose running the offense.

    He can play 1-3 and is terrible in every one of those positions. If the Knicks do get Turner they better get at least 2 late picks.

    Leonard will be tradeable if his 3 point shooting bounces back. I’d much rather have him than Evan Turner.

    Could we theoretically flip Harkless, Leonard, a Blazers’ 1st rounder, the Houston 2020, Hartenstein, and some 2nds into a Kyrie Irving trade? Like would the Cavs take Bledsoe, Harkless, a Portland 1st round pick, and Hartenstein? I think that’s a prettt decent deal even if Harkless doesn’t have the name recognition of a Carmelo Anthony. It matches the “top 20 point guard, a wing, and draft capital criteria” that was out there earlier. Phoenix gets Shumpert and a New York protected 1st round pick for Bledsoe.

    Why would we looking to trade for 3 players that will get paid $40M per year together for the next 3 years? That would be ultra-Knicksy. Of course Portland wants to make such a trade. They are dying to get out of the Turner/Leonard/Harkness mess.

    Well you are clearly suffering from Isiah PTSD. There is zero evidence to support your ideas re: Turner. In fact, that nothing has happened yet supports exactly the opposite.

    TH2 may be an overpay, but he’s a yound, athletic, reasonably efficient, and improving wing.. If anything, he makes it even less likely that they would want to be strapped with a 10X worse contract at the same position for the next 3 years.

    It’s tough to gauge Portland’s goal in any trade. How do they view Anderson as a player and his fit on the team? How high are they on Harkless? How important is luxury tax to them? Which do they prefer: extra cap or a late 1st round pick and 2nd round picks? I don’t think we know the answer to any of these questions. My guess is they’d prefer to free up cap (avoiding luxury tax in the process) and think Anderson would be OK at the 4 and Crabbe at the 3. In the trade I posted, they would free up 14m in cap. That’s why I think the deal being negotiated probably includes Harkless, Turner, and Leonard going to the Knicks (all 3 players not just Harkless and Leonard).

    A line-up of Turner, Lee, Hardaway, KP and Willy gets us a top 5 pick, with legit hopes for higher, and Turner will pass the ball to KP and WHG, so that’s the good.

    The bad and the ugly and the comical is that we’d be paying 54 mil, or about half our cap, to Turner, Hardaway and Noah until 2020.

    Look at it this way, here are the 3 choices we might be facing:

    (1) Melo to Houston and we get Anderson, 2020 pick, Hartenstein, and 2nd round pick

    (2) We get Harkless, 2020 pick, Hartenstein, and 2nd round pick and take on 27m/yr bad contracts over 3 years and give up KOQ. So, in effect, if you like this deal over the straight NYK-Houston trade, it’s because you think Harkless would be worth taking on an additional 8m/yr over 3 years in bad money (i.e., 17m Turner plus 10m Leonard minus 19m Anderson = 8m).

    (3) No trade, just keep Melo

    1 or 3 is OK by me. Anderson is a decent but overpaid player, and may be tradeable in a year.

    I will reiterate my plan of buying out melo if he agrees to waive the player option, and then signing Ramon Sessions.
    We spend the season trying to trade Lee and Lance, and start all over next summer with cap space and a very high pick.
    melo gets to go where he wants and we wish him well, and he makes a deal with Houston to make up the lost option year $ with a 20/60 3 yr contract.

    Oh man, I’m bracing for something bad here. Portland and Houston own 4 of the 15-20 worst contracts in the league (Ryno, Turner, Leonard, Crabbe).

    I think there are many other choices out there. Just as an example, where’s an Irving trade?

    Patience is a virtue. A month ago there were no trade possibilities. I wonder what we’ll have at the trade deadline? I would rather get rid of Melo soon, but we don’t have to get rid of him. Even getting nothing back for him is OK, as long as we don’t burden the team with more Noah and Hardaway type deals.

    What if Portland is facilitating a trade with Cleveland?

    CLE: Melo, Lee, Harkless, NYK lottery protected 1st
    NYK: Kyrie, Leonard, Frye, POR 2nd
    POR: Shumpert, Jefferson

    I think we give up too much in that scenario considering that we also have to take on Leonard, but would pull the trigger if Cleveland took the Portland 2 and we held on to our 1.

    i highly highly doubt kyrie is getting traded without lebron getting traded… whatever offers they get now they will also get next year if lebron decides to leave.. there’s no reason to deal kyrie now unless it’s for a better player…

    @38

    Tough to see Kyrie and LeBron coexisting now. First came reports that Kyrie didn’t want to play with LeBron anymore, then reports that Kyrie blames LeBron for leaking the trade request, now reports that LeBron wants to “beat Kyrie’s ass.”

    Why buyout Melo? He’s worth Something to another team. Houston seems to want him pretty badly. Why make it easy for the Rockets or Cleveland to acquire him for Free?!?

    Buying him out would be the stupidest thing the Knicks can do. Therefore it is in play as a possible scenario….

    If we got Melo to decline that option, then a buyout would be good. We gain the cap space after this year, and don’t take on bad contracts.

    There’s no evidence Houston wants him ‘badly’. They want him for Ryan Anderson – that’s not the same thing.

    We don’t even know that they’ve made Hartenstein or their 2020 pick (for which they have to unprotected the 2018 to LA) available. That’s basically all conjecture.

    I realise Morey is thought of as a creative genius around trades. But I’m yet to hear anyone describe a scenario where we do a three-team deal with Hou and DONT get hosed.

    Anderson is a net negative to any trading team. So routing him somewhere either takes some of houston’s assets out of the deal for us or adds other , even less attractive contracts in, or both.

    Think about that. Almost by definition, moving Anderson to a third team and not taking him ourselves almost has to make the deal less positive for us. As Zanzibar says, maybe to the tune of getting fewer picks/assets or taking on some terrible deals.

    Yet taking Anderson for what the rockets can give is also pretty terrible. Hartenstein and a future first might be enough to get Melo OR to persuade us to take Anderson. But both? Come on!

    No trade with Houston unless they find some more valuable assets or put some combo of Gordon, ariza and Capella on the table.

    We gain cap space that can be misused again ( see Baker, Ron and THJR)
    We don’t get any bad contracts nor any first round picks that go with them.

    I believe Houston does want Melo. He would fit very nicely with CP3 (banana boat buddy) and represents an upgrade offensively over Anderson. Considering Paul’s age and one year contract they are in win now mode making Melo’s age less of an issue.

    Sorry, this illusion of stockpiling massive cap space rarely works out, and even more rarely works out for the Knicks

    I don’t believe Melo can decline the option in the case of a buyout. I don’t think it’s allowed.

    We could theoretically do a 3-team trade with HOU/POR without taking on any bad contracts – we’d just have to bring back Harkless, Vonleh, Ed Davis, and a bunch of the non guaranteed or minimum contracts Houston has. Honestly – a trade like that would be fine with me. In that setting it seems likely that Portland would be getting Anderson and a pick from Houston and we prob would not get picks since Harkless, Ed Davis, and to a lesser extent Vonleh are useful players.

    I don’t believe Melo can decline the option in the case of a buyout. I don’t think it’s allowed.

    That’s my thinking as well, but is that in writing anywhere? My guess is that the contract is assumed to be through the opt-out year until the player exercises the opt-out option, which can’t be done until after the season before the opt-out year ends (i.e. in Melo’s case, summer of 2018.) If he is bought out before then, the full salary for 2 years would remain on the cap, no matter what the actual amount of the buyout. Melo can’t exercise his opt-out clause in advance.

    But hey, 2 for 18 understands math, so we must be wrong, correct?

    i think you should be pretty dubious of what you hear on twitter… esp hearsay like lebron wants to beat kyrie up…. they both should be motivated to play the year out… kyrie has at least two years left… and lebron will def leave if kyrie isn’t replaced by someone better… kyrie still shoulders a lot of the scoring burden even with lebron….

    This trade is making one hell of a goal line stand.

    Must be that teams keep kicking FGs in overtime…

    “Some dude named Burt_Steele is tweeting that Melo will be a Rocket by 6PM today. Supposedly he broke the CP3 news first, and that he may know Morey. Other than that, he has 170 followers, and tweeted 3 times in the past 2 years. Take what you like from that.”

    What I take from that is that A NEW ERA STARTS IN 4 HOURS! WOOOO-WEEE!!!!

    Well I never claimed to understand the convoluted cap nuances. So if they can’t do my master plan, I don’t see any way out of dealing melo without taking back worse (longer) contracts.

    I honestly don’t care much for cap space, the Knicks are gonna waste it in the first opportunity anyway, so it’s a valuable commodity that just won’t get used properly.

    I do care about picks, any picks, even if 2020 plus etc. In fact, when negotiating with Houston + Portland, long term picks might be a future gold mine.

    Just give us Hartenstein, Leonard and Harkless + 1 or 2 picks and call it a day, sign Ramon Sessions or Sergio Rodriguez and the team is set.

    Just give us Hartenstein, Leonard and Harkless + 1 or 2 picks and call it a day, sign Ramon Sessions or Sergio Rodriguez and the team is set.

    This would be a good outcome.

    I do care about cap space. Cap space is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And a good thing never dies.

    “Just give us Hartenstein, Leonard and Harkless + 1 or 2 picks and call it a day, sign Ramon Sessions or Sergio Rodriguez and the team is set.

    This would be a good outcome.”

    Agree – That would be a much better outcome than buyout and getting nothing

    Cap space is great and all, but most NBA players have realized the Knicks are a shitshow and a last resort, so the only way the Knicks ever get to use that cap space is on ridiculous overpays of mediocre and/or washed up players.

    Another way to use cap space is to take on bad contracts to acquire assets but that is not a big part of what we do around here. We have kicked that idea to the curb.

    Well yeah, if they can pull off what 58 proposes I’d do a happy dance. I just can’t fathom the knicks making such a positive deal.
    I have low expectations, so I’d rather get nothing than worse than nothing.
    0 > -2.

    I tend to think this trade was on it’s own 2 yard line… not about to go in… we gotta go 98 yards…

    oh, I would rather see a buyout than getting Evan Turner + another shit contract back.

    Evan Turner starting for the Knicks would be even a bigger nightmare than watching Rose ignoring open shooters for a whole season.

    Well, waiting this long on pulling the trigger on a shitty Melo deal is also not what we do around here. But hey, you keep right on assuming that every deal the Knicks will ever make will be a ridiculous overpay. Must be nice living in a world in which you will never be disappointed.

    While you’re at it, keep in mind that the teams/GMs we are trying to deal with are shopping their very own ridiculous overpays. Even the great Daryl Morey.

    Zach Lowe reported that the Cavs are asking for Bledsoe + Josh Jackson from the Suns in a Kyrie trade.

    hahahahahahhaha

    my god, I can only imagine the type of offers they are asking the Knicks, it must be stuff like Melo, Willy, Frank + 2 1st unprotected picks.

    Must be nice living in a world in which you will never be disappointed.

    The Knicks have quite reliably been doing stupid shit for what is now going on 20 years. So when it comes to that, sure, they rarely let me down.

    @58 – I don’t really mind your idea because we get picks back. Without the picks or the cap space it’s a disaster. I prefer picks and cap space but you get what you can.

    Must be nice living in a world in which you will never be disappointed.

    That’s a world without hope, and what point is there of being a fan without hope?

    I’m very happy with our young core of KP, Willy, Frank and Dotson. Let’s not mess with it and please hold onto our draft picks. If we trade Melo for a ham sandwich we’ll still be better off.

    The Knicks have quite reliably been doing stupid shit for what is now going on 20 years. So when it comes to that, sure, they rarely let me down.

    There’s been lots of smart shit mixed in, including some smart shit that you initially thought was stupid shit.

    @wojespn
    Portland will waive and stretch Nicholson’s contract, league source tells ESPN

    @wojespn
    Portland has traded Allen Crabbe to Brooklyn for Andrew Nicholson, league sources tell ESPN.

    Portland is clearing space for our deal.

    But we can’t get harkless, Leonard Hartenstein and two picks. Both us and Portland clearly see harkless as a decent asset. Portland clearly doesn’t see giving up a decent player and shipping off a bad (30/3) deal for a really terrible one (60/3, for a 29-year old one way forward) as a good deal. And nor should they. So they would want something else to do that deal – what is that? Hartenstein or at least one pick.

    So now it’s harkless, Leonard, and at best one or other of a pick or Hartenstein? That’s not a great haul and it’s not even clear it’s on offer… we can’t keep coming up with trades where the third team just rolls over and takes Anderson to help us out. NOONE IS GOING TO DO THAT.

    I’m perusing Moe Harkless’s b-ref page, guess which former Knick has his 3rd highest similiar score? Hint: his nickname was Action and he loves peyote.

    There’s been lots of smart shit mixed in, including some smart shit that you initially thought was stupid shit.

    Oh yeah, lots of smart shit. That’s probably why we’ve been so good for so long.

    Zach Lowe reported that the Cavs are asking for Bledsoe + Josh Jackson from the Suns in a Kyrie trade.

    That’s not that ridiculous an ask. Bledsoe is probably an average PG that they’ve been trying to trade for a while. Josh Jackson is nice but unproven.

    Kyrie + Booker on defense though? *shudder*

    Must be nice to be the Nets and have a guy like Sean Marks just making good move after good move.

    They turned freaking Bojan Bogdanovic (who was due for FA) into Jarrett Allen and Allen Crabbe. Just awesome. And considering they were stuck paying Nicholson $6MM/year x 3 years, Crabbe costs them $12MM/year net, which is palatable.

    Lin, Russell, Crabbe, Hollis-Jefferson, Levert, KJ, Mozgov. It’s not that bad. And considering how bad the East will be?

    The Lakers will also likely be better than expected too. Maybe those Boston picks will not be so great.

    Kyrie + Booker on defense though? *shudder*

    And not enough basketballs on the court for that duo. Poor Bender and Chriss. They won’t get to take a shot for minutes at a time.

    Kyrie for Bledsoe and Jackson would be okay if Pheonix was further along in their rebuild. They still don’t have a great young talent.

    Pheonix is pretty barren when it comes to their youth, none of them looks like a star. Unlike us they are assured a top 5 pick this year. Kyrie would screw that up.

    It’s not the trade it’s just Pheonix shouldn’t really want Kyrie, he screws up their draft position and doesn’t fit their timeline.

    Even one small nugget of dogshit in an otherwise perfect milk shake makes it a shitty drink overall.

    I know you and others hate the Hardaway and Baker deals, but they’re small potatoes in the big picture. We currently have about 5 intriguing young rotation players, all of our #1 picks going forward, and are not anywhere near the luxury tax. When in the last 20 years would you have been able to say that?

    Of all the shitty milkshakes the Knicks have whipped up over the last 20 years, this one is by far the closest to being drinkable. We’ve gotten rid of one big lump of dogshit in Rose. Tell me, how many times over the past have you and others lamented that the Knicks would inevitably max him ’cause Knicks? Guess that ain’t happening, huh?

    Granted, with the Knicks, anything is possible. But so far, the Baker and TH2 are nothing to get all bent out of shape about, a promising 2nd rounder was signed to a team-friendly deal, Jax was fired and replaced by a decent front office guy, management has said the right things, a stupid Melo deal wasn’t made, and Kyrie made us one of 4 teams he would like to be traded to. You can’t think of any cause for guarded optimism?

    Sure, guarded optimism is fine. Things could be worse.

    My initial point here was that cap space is not really all that useful to us unless we use it to acquire assets. Which we never do. We use cap space to overpay veterans when we’re miles away from contention. We do this very reliably, over a period of many years now.

    a stupid Melo deal wasn’t made

    YET

    seriously though – it does seem like this crabbe-> BKN deal was made in prep for taking on Anderson. I think we if we take on Leonard, we need to be compensated in draft pick(s), even if it’s 2 second rounders. Or – I can imagine a structure like we get the worst of the Houston and Portland 2020 first rounders or something like that and Portland gets the other.

    So the Blazers could have let Brooklyn have Crabbe for free last offseason, but instead matched the huge offer sheet to make him their backup SG. One year later they have to take back Nicholson’s bad deal just to dump Crabbe on Brooklyn. Weird maneuvering.

    I think you guys are crazy if you think Kyrie is worth Bledsoe + Jackson.

    Bledsoe is not a great scorer but he’s also far from the terrible mess on defense that Kyrie is, I can’t see how the difference between them is worth Josh Jackson, an extremely promising 20 year old who is under team control for 4 years.

    “Being able to play with the #Cavaliers and compete for a championship is the only thing that matters for me.”
    –Derrick Rose, who also tried to sign with the Lakers and Bucks

    It’s close to two hours until 6PM.

    What are the chances LeBron makes Cleveland trade Kyrie to his least favorite organization, the Knicks?

    We currently have about 5 intriguing young rotation players, all of our #1 picks going forward,….

    Right, that’s good. And yet the big talk the last few days has been trading some combo of those picks and young players for mini melo 2.0 (which you no doubt will end up cheerleading it happens), which is why some people are rightfully nervous.

    Kyrie + Booker = Lillard + McCollum

    I don’t see how Cleveland gets Bledsoe and Jackson. The trade market for stars has been pretty slim over the last year. Butler, George, and Boogie all went for pennies. If that’s what Cleveland is asking, Phoenix should hold out. Offer Bledsoe and Chriss and see if they bite.

    seriously though – it does seem like this crabbe-> BKN deal was made in prep for taking on Anderson. I think we if we take on Leonard, we need to be compensated in draft pick(s), even if it’s 2 second rounders. Or – I can imagine a structure like we get the worst of the Houston and Portland 2020 first rounders or something like that and Portland gets the other.

    Lillard/McCollum/Harkless/Anderson/Nurkic is a nice starting lineup. This tells me maybe Harkless won’t be in any deal. But something like this could work:

    Houston…..Melo
    NYK………….Davis, Vonleh, Aminu
    Portland…..Anderson, Hartenstein, 2020 pick, Non-guaranteed contracts

    We’d free a ton of cap in that deal this year and next summer.

    Well, I’m ok with trading for Kyrie if it is fair value. For example, I think Melo+Frank and a top-10 protected 2018 pick is fair value, given Kyrie’s cap-friendly contract.

    If we make an unfair trade (as we did in the original Melo trade) I will say so (as I did then, saying that we gave up 2 pieces too many) but I will still hope for the best as I always do.

    What position that I’ve lately taken do you chalk up to “cheerleading”? Liking Baker and TH2? (I called them both overpays but that said am excited about watching both players perform as they are getting paid to perform or better.)

    My gauge of “fair value” is whether it is likely that you can get similar return to what you gave up over the life of the contract. In Kyrie’s case, we would likely be able to get back something similar in value to “Melo, Frank and a top-10 protected #1 pick” for his two guaranteed years, assuming he stays reasonably healthy.

    @92 I’d do that. It would be a nearly equivalent result of just buying melo out if he waives his option (which he can’t). Basically start over next year. Just get a Grevis Vazquezian pg who can dribble and pass to our bigs and keep his mouth shut.

    –Derrick Rose, who also tried to sign with the Lakers and Bucks

    And the Knicks.

    For example, I think Melo+Frank and a top-10 protected 2018 pick is fair value, given Kyrie’s cap-friendly contract.

    You’re talking about giving up back to back #1 picks here. This is partly how we got into this mess. I don’t want to do it. I’d only do something like that if we were a win now team or were getting a young 2 way player back.

    Let me revise Rose’s quote so that it’s more accurate.

    “Being able to play with #AnyNBATeam and collect a paycheck is the only thing that matters for me. I’d have accepted a contract from literally anybody who was offering more money or playing time, but no one was. So I guess competing for a championship is as good a tiebreaker as any.”

    The funny thing is that the Knicks are involving Portland in the deal, and then Brooklyn got the best “bad asset” the Blazers had for free.

    @100

    me too, probably, but Id rather take Crabbe than Evan Turner, Meyers Leonard or Ryan Anderson.

    @100

    THJ is making an AAV of $17.7m. Crabbe is $18.7m. And THJ has a trade kicker and player option, which Crabbe doesn’t.

    Crabbe is a horrendous defender though. I am not mad about missing out on him.

    Derrick Rose:

    “I’m only willing to sign a contract under any circumstances.”

    Hardaway is probably a slightly better player than Crabbe in a vacuum. But considering THJ’s trade kicker and player option, I’d rather have Crabbe on his deal than THJ on his.

    And Brooklyn is getting Crabbe for an effective AAV of $13m since they were able to dump Nicholson.

    @105

    Derrick Rose:

    “I’ll only accept the minimum, and not a penny less.”

    Of all the shitty milkshakes the Knicks have whipped up over the last 20 years, this one is by far the closest to being drinkable.

    Very nice turn of phrase.

    This is funny:

    http://bkref.com/tiny/XNzUV

    Ron Baker gets 4.3MM x 2 years with 2nd year player option.
    Tyler Ennis gets minimum x 2 years with 2nd year team option

    yet Ennis seems to be the better player. *smh*

    Make sure u guys apologize to Ron (and me :-D) when he outperforms his contract.

    Lin, Russell, Crabbe, Hollis-Jefferson, Levert, KJ, Mozgov. It’s not that bad. And considering how bad the East will be?

    We can only hope the Nets win 3o games and prevent the freaking Celtics from getting another top 5 pick.

    Baker could grow 6 inches and play like Magic next season, and it’s still a bad contract because 1) they could have had him for 66% less, and 2) he’ll opt out and they’ll have to increase his pay to keep him because of the player option.
    That deal was an indefensible lose – lose.

    Math!

    yes – I like Ron and think he has a chance of being a rotation player in the NBA. but the deal itself is really indefensible from a team perspective. One can only hope that with Perry on board, there will be fewer obviously terrible deals like this going forward.

    wow – Woj minor bomb – Brandon Knight tore his ACL and prob out for the season. Seems unlikely Bledsoe is going anywhere, unless it’s in a Kyrie trade.

    While you’re at it, keep in mind that the teams/GMs we are trying to deal with are shopping their very own ridiculous overpays. Even the great Daryl Morey.

    Yeah, it sort of gets lost in all the drama, but we keep being reminded Morey gave Ryan Anderson 4 years, $80mm.

    Cocaine is a helluva drug.

    Baker’s deal is bad no matter how he plays b/c he almost assuredly could’ve been signed for about half the money and no player option. Two years and $5m easily gets it done. No player option; in fact, a team option.

    Instead, he’s being paid like a high lottery pick.

    The player option there is almost mind-numbingly stupid.

    Nets offered RFA Crabbe max and Portland matched. OIne year later, Portland trades Crabbe to Nets and receives no value in terms of players (not cap) in deal. Is this the first time this has ever happened in the NBA?

    BTW here’s THE TRADE in trade machine I mentioned earlier that might work for everyone.
    – Morey gets Melo
    – Portland may be able to shed Leonard next summer using Houston 2020 pick and Hartenstein when he’s only got 2 years left on deal. Avoids luxury tax now and future. Nice starting lineup of Lillard/McCollum/Harkless/Anderson/Nurkic.
    – NYK free up cap this year to sign Sessions to 1 year deal and free up 19m cap to use next summer. Melo is gone and we’ve got some temporary serviceable players who won’t hurt us but won’t be part of our core.

    @116

    And obviously Morey gave Lin a huge contract to take him away from the knicks. I remember right afterwards he was interviewed saying it was a “very good risk”, but then later had to give the Lakers a 1st and 2nd round pick to take on Lin’s contract

    I’m definitely a fan of Morey’s, but it’s a good reminder that even the seemingly infallible GMs can make some pretty significant errors

    Crabbe had a trade kicker, too. He waived it.

    It seems like everyone waives their trade kicker, fwiw.

    Crabbe had a trade kicker, too. He waived it.

    It seems like everyone waives their trade kicker, fwiw.

    You can see it as a softer NTC, if you like where the team is going to trade you, you waive it to make it happen.

    If not, you dont waive it, and block the trade as much as possible.

    If Phoenix wants to give us Jackson, I’d be willing to take Knight’s corpse off their hands 🙂

    I’ll even throw in Ron, FREE OF CHARGE. Wow, what a deal. Be dialing, people.

    Lin, Russell, Crabbe, Hollis-Jefferson, Levert, KJ, Mozgov. It’s not that bad. And considering how bad the East will be?

    You forgot Dinwiddie and Demarre. Marks picked up Dinwiddie after he was waived by Chicago and dude took huge leap playing 1334 minutes and posting WS/48 > .100 and 58 TS. If Crabbe is able to improve like Timmy did in other than shooting, he’ll be a real nice player. Marks is doing an excellent job given what he had at the start. Maybe any Nets success this season will make Dolan think. Or KP think who will then make Dolan think.

    Wasn’t the Melo to Houston trade supposed to be announced 8 minutes ago? 🙂

    Wasn’t the Melo to Houston trade supposed to be announced 8 minutes ago? 🙂

    Don’t worry, it’s on the 0.001 yard line. Any minute now. Annnnnny minute….

    Ah, good point, thanks. Can’t wait to see the huge news in 46 min. then

    Maybe the blazers trade is a step closer for the Melo trade?
    If I’m Cleveland I’ll get young pieces and picks for Kyrie. It will be beneficial to them even if lebron stay or go,

    Burt Steele’s got the opportunity to advance from a bad porn star name to EF Hutton status: When E.F. Hutton talks, people listen.

    Note I think the Crabbe trade might have been required to keep Portland from hitting luxury tax and thereby triggering 125% match versus 150% match in any NY-Houston deal.

    No one here knows what we could have signed Ron for, or whether other teams were interested in him at more than the minimum. I understand that many here feel that at any price beyond what Dotson got, the Knicks should have let him walk. I can’t dispute that, since there are no stats to justify signing him to the deal he got. But as I’ve said many times, I see something different in him, and think that whatever I see is the same thing that Hornacek sees. He will make the team better next year.

    As to the player option, who cares?! If he opts out, GREAT!!!!! That means he would have to have played at least 5 times better than the doubters thought he could play (more for those who don’t even think he is worth the minimum.

    Maybe he plays so well that the Knicks offer him a fair contract extension for 3-4 years, is that a possibility?

    It’s just comical to me that folks here are overblowing this slightly above minimum deal/player option to a potentially great feel-good story, to a chance at witnessing Ronsanity. It does absolutely nothing to hurt the future of this team. Roll with it! You’ll be glad you did!!

    I forgot I posted that yesterday. I didn’t take it seriously but a lot of people are, supposedly he’s got some kind of inside scoop on Morey. Either way, this was (a) a random dude, really, and (b) before Kyrie leaked. So whatever. And yeah, central time 545 is in 30 min. Ain’t holdin my breath

    It’s just comical to me that folks here are overblowing this slightly above minimum deal/player option to a potentially great feel-good story, to a chance at witnessing Ronsanity. It does absolutely nothing to hurt the future of this team.

    Z-Man, you’re missing the larger issue here. NYK put the interests of the agent CAA ahead of the interests of the team. That’s the type of pernicious corrosive mindset we need purged from MSG. You probably said the same thing about the Chris Smith signing but that led to CAA Bargs trade.

    Is this even still true? Right now, CAA has just Melo, Ron, and Frank on the Knicks (quick google search, correct me if I’m wrong)… one of those guys is on the outs, too. So I don’t know if that’s still true.

    I could see the Chris Smith signing being pointed to as an example of how much power CAA had (and I would agree with that), but come on, it “led to the Bargs trade”? There’s a major disconnect there. They were both symptoms of the same disease. One was not “led to” by the other.

    As to the player option, who cares?! If he opts out, GREAT!!!!! That means he would have to have played at least 5 times better than the doubters thought he could play (more for those who don’t even think he is worth the minimum.

    I don’t want to harp on this. I get that you like Scrappy Doo. But this is a fundamental misunderstanding of how to put together a winning team.

    In a salary capped league, you need to get surplus value out of your players if you want to win. If you have an entire team with guys who play exactly to the value of their contracts, you’re a .500 team. If Ron has a good year and then the Knicks sign him to a “fair” extension, he’s no longer a winning player. He’s a player who gets you to .500. There is quite literally ZERO upside to Ron’s contract beyond the first year.

    It feels like I explain this concept until I am blue in the face and some people don’t really understand it. Signing players to market value contracts is a guarantee of mediocrity. You need to get guys who outperform their deals. The structure of Ron’s contract ensures that the Knicks can only possibly get surplus value from him for one season, a season in which the team is pretty much going to suck anyway.

    Whatever though. Knicks gonna Knick.

    Note I think the Crabbe trade might have been required to keep Portland from hitting luxury tax and thereby triggering 125% match versus 150% match in any NY-Houston deal.

    Per RealGM, Portland is in the luxury tax and this deal reduces it from $48.3M to $4.4M. If that’s true, then Portland may not be doing this to clear space for a Melo deal.

    I doubt that’s he case here, but certainly it’s rational to be worried about CAA’s influence. CAA represents all kinds of players, and nearly every team has to deal with their clients. We’ve made plenty of bad non-CAA deals. The larger issue here is mismanagement on a grand scale, and it’s fair to view this tiny signing as a symptom of that chronic disease. But as a fan of the team, my feeling is that if a particular move does not get in the way of progress, it’s not worth getting bent out of shape about it. It’s the BIG mistakes…the Bargnani-level, or Noah-level, or Amare-level deals that really set the franchise back. The only way this deal can turn out badly is if Baker becomes an all-star, opts out, and signs elsewhere. More likely, he will play just fine for the money, and will stick around either by opting in or by getting a fair extension. He’s an ultra-high character guy and I’m glad to get a chance to root for him to embody the ’90s lunchpail, in-your-face every possession no matter what the score, always looking to make the right play mindset every single time he steps over the lines, from the first practice to the last day of the season. I can celebrate a player like that getting a modest sweetheart deal, and proving every day to his teammates that he will earn every penny of it on and off the court.

    Do we really care if Horny sees something in RON?

    Horny is the same guy who pushed to trade Isiah Thomas from Phoenix. The GM allegedly didn’t want to do it but eventually caved in

    I could see the Chris Smith signing being pointed to as an example of how much power CAA had (and I would agree with that), but come on, it “led to the Bargs trade”? There’s a major disconnect there. They were both symptoms of the same disease. One was not “led to” by the other.

    Agree to an extent. NYK’s largely skated when Chris Smith was signed as it was cast not as a CAA play but more helping JR and that it was a meaningless signing in the grand scheme of things like Z-Man is arguing. That set the stage for the Bargs trade – maybe if people had been more vocal about the CAA angle then Dolan might have been more cautious in Bargs trade.

    On his podcast, Lowe just said “CAA”, Beck or Begley said “yeah” and that was it. Less than 5 seconds. Then they went on to discuss possible reasons other than CAA for the Baker contract. If those three had spent 10 minutes excoriating Dolan and Knicks for letting an agency’s interests trump Bball considerations, then maybe that might have helped to prevent future trades or signings like this. Most of the public isn’t aware of the CAA connection here. So, in that sense, a ridiculous Baker signing which does not engender appropriate opprobium against CAA does “lead to” more damaging stuff.

    In a salary capped league, you need to get surplus value out of your players if you want to win. If you have an entire team with guys who play exactly to the value of their contracts, you’re a .500 team.

    I don’t disagree with your post above but i just want to point that this specific point is not necessarily true.

    It’s not a hard capped league. You can have everyone playing to the value of their contracts and still be a >.500.

    JK, duh, I get it. But no team gets surplus value from every contract. We already have potentially 7 or 8 plus contracts, with possibly more to come. If Baker is a wash but a great story and an inspirational player, eating a bit of surplus value is not going to get in the way of building a great team. It’s totally inconsequential at worst and a fan’s dream at best.

    HB, well, if Hornacek is the coach of the team, then yeah, I care what he sees. If he’s wrong, no biggie. It’s his head on the chopping block, not yours or mine.

    Never like to celebrate an injury…but at least we can cross bad trade for Knight off the fear list.

    It’s after 5:45 CDT – this can only mean that the Knicks are less Carmelo Anthony and awash in cap space, draft picks, and promising youngsters on rookie deals. It’s just that we haven’t heard about it yet. Way to go, Knicks! Let’s savor this!

    I doubt that’s he case here, but certainly it’s rational to be worried about CAA’s influence. CAA represents all kinds of players, and nearly every team has to deal with their clients. We’ve made plenty of bad non-CAA deals.

    There’s simply no valid reason to have given Baker that contract. NONE. The Timmy signing was an overpay but you could make the case that it will work out. Noah was bad but there was some logic since another team like Wiz might have signed him for 3 or 4 years. The dollars and the player option on the Baker contract tell you all you need to know. There was no competition for this guy to merit that sort of contract.

    I don’t disagree with your post above but i just want to point that this specific point is not necessarily true.

    It’s not a hard capped league. You can have everyone playing to the value of their contracts and still be a >.500.

    Because there are max contract players who are worth much more than their contracts, as well as players outperforming their rookie deals, doesn’t that a team playing to their contract would actually be <.500?

    @141

    I hate to be that guy, but who exactly are the 7 to 8 plus contracts on the Knicks?

    KP, Willy, I would say Ntilikina and KOQ, maybe maaaaybe Dotson… who else?

    Baker and Timmy?

    this is a huge reach.

    The dollars and the player option on the Baker contract tell you all you need to know. There was no competition for this guy to merit that sort of contract.

    This is not evidence. It is an inference based on your opinion.

    Doesn’t matter though. If the Knicks felt that they wanted him around and didn’t want him to shop, they locked him up for a year on an incrementally better deal than he may have gotten elsewhere. Remember how Grunwald told Lin to shop for a deal when he should have just “overpaid”him? Why are you so sure that no one would have offered Baker a better than minimum deal if they knew he was available? You can bet that Miami and Toronto were impressed by him in those two late season games.

    There’s no way any team would have offered him 4.5m/yr AND a player option.

    KP, Willy, all 3 draft picks, O’Q, Kuz. Possibly Jaramaz. And KP, Willy and possibly Dotson are HUGE plus contracts. So if Baker, Timmy, and Lance and Lee are close to washes, then only Noah (assuming Melo is dealt) is a huge minus.

    Let’s see what a Melo deal brings.

    Phoenix clearly had no idea what they were doing after that 2014 season when they won 48 games. Sorta like how the Knicks didn’t realize what led them to be the #2 seed in the East in 2013. It’s hard to blame Hornacek who by most accounts is a stats guy and has been tutored to some extent by Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson, and Steve Kerr.

    The player option is not smart. But it’s not a big deal either. Just like it wasn’t for Afflalo and DWill.

    KP, Willy, all 3 draft picks, O’Q, Kuz. Possibly Jaramaz. And KP, Willy and possibly Dotson are HUGE plus contracts. So if Baker, Timmy, and Lance and Lee are close to washes, then only Noah (assuming Melo is dealt) is a huge minus.

    Well, shit, just about every deal on the books is a plus contract, we should be fucking awesome next year!

    @150

    As far as I know, Jaramaz hasn’t even signed a contract yet, how can he be a potential plus? Kuzminskas is at most fair value (probably a minus), and Lance Thomas is quite clearly by all known measures a minus.

    out of those guys, Dotson, Ntilikina and Jaramaz haven’t played a single minute in the NBA. I would say at most KP, Willy, O’Quinn are locks to produce at a higher value than their contracts, everyone else is either doubtful / possible or highly improbable.

    I get that your idea of evaluating the Knicks is to always expect the best case scenario to happen, so yeah, I guess if everything goes right for this sorry franchise you could be right.

    Because there are max contract players who are worth much more than their contracts, as well as players outperforming their rookie deals, doesn’t that a team playing to their contract would actually be <.500?

    No, I talking about a hypotetical situation where everyone is playing to their contract. Not max or rookie contracts. These are market distortions of the player real value.

    Portland for example has around 135 million in payroll and the salary cap is 99 million this year (.500 team), so if the Blazers could be 100% efficient allocating salaries they should be a 55 win team.

    No, I talking about a hypotetical situation where everyone is playing to their contract. Not max or rookie contracts. These are market distortions of the player real value.

    Portland for example has around 135 million in payroll and the salary cap is 99 million this year (.500 team), so if the Blazers could be a 100% efficient allocating salaries they should be a 55 win team.

    Got it, thought you just meant one team.

    I’m really not sure about Kuz’s excess value. He played ok in some scenarios last year, but it is hard to make a case he is worth more than his contract. If he was on the open market now after a year in the league, i think he’d get a contract something like what he has.
    That said, its not a given that you can find inexpensive competent bench players, so I’m happy to have him.

    lol, I’ll grant KP, Willy, and O’Quinn to be considered plus contracts.

    If you had a team of players all on plus contracts, but they were all cheap contracts, that wouldn’t mean the players were great, just that they weren’t paid much at all. You need some players who are actually very good and paid less than market value to get a winning team. Willy, KP and KOQ are probably this for the Knicks. The other Knicks players on value contracts havent yet shown they are good enough to make much difference

    Z-Man: explain where you disagree with this–

    Baker plays well: the effect on the Knicks is a worse lottery pick and either paying him more or losing him (all negative)

    Baker plays badly: he opts in and is a weight on the cap.

    What is the upside? How if you could program Baker to be any player from Chris Smith to Michael Jordan could this deal possibly help the Knicks?

    The only way this deal is okay is if he plays like a megamax player starting on day one, and you leverage the goodwill from the player option to sign a max contract extension before he hits the open market. In any other sub-max case, he hits the open market and the Knicks have no leverage to do anything but overpay (since most players aside from min and max contracts are overpaid).

    If he plays better than a $4.5M player, he opts out. If he plays worse, he opts in. There is no reasonable upside to the way the contract is structured, nor the contract at all.

    But Ron is so cute though! Look at him out there, with his floppy hair and scrappitude!

    Kuzminskas is at most fair value (probably a minus)

    at 3 million? Kuz is fine. If he’d hit his threes a bit more often he would have been a good backup. You can at least see what they were thinking taking a shot on him. Maybe we’ll get lucky with him this season.

    We need to start rating players on a Chris Smith to Michael Jordan scale.

    @163

    If he hit his 3s, he would be good value for his contract, but he didn’t… Z-Man pointed him out as a plus, I’m just saying that I don’t think he’s worth more than 3 million.

    Also I will be completely cool with Ron Baker playing like Michael Jordan next season

    I took a big power nap hoping to wake up to news of a Melo trade.

    Damn you Burt Steele. Damn you to Hell.

    We need to start rating players on a Chris Smith to Michael Jordan scale

    This is fun.
    1- Chris smith
    10- Jordan


    1- Chris smith
    2- Bargnani
    3- Landry Fields

    9- LeBron
    10- Jordan

    That’s what I have for now. I’m being called to dinner, I trust someone to fill it in, someone else to correct someone, a third to start the LeBron vs MJ thread, and a fourth to start the blockbuster Chris Smith vs Bargs thread.

    Jowles, there are other possibilities:

    1) Baker plays really well (say like a $10 mill player) and signs an extension at or before the end of the year for much less than he would make if he played really well for 2 years (say, 3 years @ 12 Mill vs if he played well in year 2 at a discount and then looked for a bigger payday. Late bloomers who are signed for 2-3 years on the cheap are gonna look to get paid, i.e. guys like Matthews, Bazemore, Carroll, and yes, Hardaway Jr. As you said, there is possibly a loyalty discount for the Knicks after year 1; definitely not after year 2.

    2) Baker plays like a 5 million player and either opts out and a) re-ups for a modest raise or b) opts in and then proceeds to improve.

    3) Baker plays like a $3 million player, opts in and improves to a $6+ million player in year 2

    4) isn’t it possible for the Knicks to extend him this year? Say he plays well in the first half, can the Knicks offer him something like a 3 year/$24 mill deal?

    Harkless for Lee would be a solid move. Probably about a wash productivity wise but we’d shed a lot of downside risk and even have a bit of upside

    And JK, what’s with the floppy hair nonsense? It’s beneath you. Baker is 6’4″ 220 lbs with a 6’9 3/4″ wingspan and a 35 inch vertical. He showed flashes of good play at the end of the year and displayed enough game, intangibles and character to win himself a nice contract. He’s not some Rudy character. He was a Wooden award finalist in college and played a significant role in a shitload of NCAA tournament wins. So far, he hasn’t played any worse than top picks Russell or Mudiay. Who gives a shit about his hair? I understand that you are not impressed by the kid and hate the signing, but keep it real.

    I get the feeling that if Ron’s name was DeMarcus Robinson and he was from East St. Louis, we wouldn’t be hearing so much about his great effort and basketball IQ and what a rootable kid he is.

    Harkless for Lee would be a nice move, but wouldn’t Portland be adding just a bit of salary there?

    As for Burt Steele turning out to be not so prophetic, what do you expect from a guy with the first name of Burt Reynolds and the last name of George The Animal Steele?

    That’s what I thought.

    Baker plays well: the effect on the Knicks is a worse lottery pick and either paying him more or losing him (all negative)

    Has it been decided that we are tanking on purpose? If not, I hope every player plays their best and plays well and that we win as many games as possible. I couldn’t give a shit whether a player is signed for 10 days or 10 years. Did you also whine when Jeremy Lin played well because we might have had a better lottery pick if he didn’t? And he signed for a better deal and pretty much underperformed his contract ever since, so who gives a hoot in retrospect that we lost him?

    I get the feeling that if Ron’s name was DeMarcus Robinson and he was from East St. Louis, we wouldn’t be hearing so much about his great effort and basketball IQ and what a rootable kid he is.

    Sure, let’s race-bait, that’s productive!

    What a fucking asshole.

    @173

    Yeah, I tend to agree.

    I would say Baker built a positive reputation in the Wichita State teams that a lot of people noticed during the undefeated season etc, but Fred VanVleet and Cleanthony Early were there too, have been equally terrible in the NBA in limited minutes and well, Cle is out of the league and VanVleet makes 1.5 a year. So the Shockers angle is out of the question.

    It’s like people were discussing a while ago, someone was arguing that Baker would be able to out think anyone on the court, etc… it’s the sort of compliment that’s reserved for the scrappy white dude.
    I think it’s important to think about stuff like this.

    @175

    nobody complained about Linsanity because the Knicks didn’t have a 1st rounder in 2012. If they did, it would have been pointless wins (something can be both entertaining and pointless).

    I, for one, am shocked that a guy on Twitter named Burt Steele wasn’t a reliable source of information.

    Damn him. Damn him straight to the 9th level of Dante’s Inferno.

    While he certainly unfairly gets the “likeable” moniker easier for being white he’s also, well, really likeable. He’s a funny guy (the Hyundai Sonata line) who plays right despite being bad. I really started liking him when he was jawing w KD that one game, because he went to his camp lol.

    Why is it that certain people can’t seem to have a basketball conversation on this board without resorting to personal insults and innuendos? Sad, really. Its the ultimate sign of an inability to engage in productive debate.

    As per Ron – he is being overrated. I can’t say if his race comes into it, but I assume he gets overpaid by the FO for the same reason Lance Thomas, a black player, is overpaid – according to our FOs process-based logic he supposedly plays the game “the right way” even if the results aren’t always the most productive. Coaches and fans tend to love guys like that and will prize them beyond what their metric value.

    “As per Ron – he is being overrated. I can’t say if his race comes into it, but I assume he gets overpaid by the FO for the same reason Lance Thomas, a black player, is overpaid – according to our FOs process-based logic he supposedly plays the game “the right way” even if the results aren’t always the most productive. Coaches tend to love guys like that and will prize them beyond what their metric value.”

    +1

    I don’t think the Lance Thomas case is similar at all, to be honest.

    I hate Thomas as a player, he’s one of my least favorite Knicks in recent years, but when he got the contract he was playing much better than Ron did in his limited minutes. Thomas has been in the league for 5 years and I believe for sure that the FO sees him as a “proven veteran”, even if he’s not worth his contract. Baker is not a proven veteran.

    Lance Thomas has shown production, enough to make the Knicks (wrongly, in my opinion) believe that he’s a valuable 3 and D player. Baker has shown nothing outside of being the scrappy white dude who tries hard and some expectation that he might not be that terrible of a shooter someday.

    At least with Ron there is some analytical evidence to support the idea that he has defensive value. According to Real Defense Plus-Minus, he ranked better than average among SGs (42nd out 94) in terms of defensive value in his rookie season. In Lance Thomas’ case, RDPM shows him to be pretty bad. So bad, in fact, that he ranks as the 7th worse defender at the small forward position, one spot ahead of Melo.

    VanVleet and Early are both undersized for their NBA positions. I rooted really hard for Cle to improve. He didn’t. Oh well.

    I obviously don’t think Z-man or anyone else who defends Baker is doing so because he’s racist, that’s not the point.

    What JK47 pointed out, and I think it’s really relevant, it’s about preconceived ideas and institutional racism, which are very much a part of the NBA and of its fan base.

    @184

    Thomas was given the contract based on his 2015-16 season, last season numbers are irrelevant to this discussion.

    ESPN’s website won’t load here, and trust me, I agree Thomas is not a good defender, but the Knicks perceived him to be one. We don’t know if the Knicks even looks at advanced stats before signing someone (they probably really don’t, looking at Baker’s contract).

    Thomas also shot 40% that year from 3… Baker shot 26.7% this year in a very similar number of attempts.

    I obviously don’t think Z-man or anyone else who defends Baker is doing so because he’s racist, that’s not the point.

    This is correct, and Z-Man, my comment about Ron Baker and his hypothetical doppelganger DeMarcus Robinson wasn’t meant as a swipe at you. You’re a long-time poster here and we’ve always co-existed peacefully. I have love for all KnickerBloggers, even the ones I occasionally disagree with. Well, except Reub. Fuck that guy.

    In general, Baker gets credit for “intangibles” such as “plays the game the right way” despite playing the game, well, shittily.

    What JK47 pointed out, and I think it’s really relevant, it’s about preconceived ideas and institutional racism, which are very much a part of the NBA and of its fan base.

    The problem lies in divining motive. How do you ascribe a racial preference in the Baker case when we’re on a team that regularly overpays for talent like Lance Thomas, Tim Hardaway Jr, Joaquim Noah, etc? How do you ascribe racial preference for Ron Baker among a fan base that regularly overrates its star players like Carmelo, Rose, and even KP. No one denies the existence of institutional racism, especially those of us who experience it everyday, but it can be also used as a sloppy explanation to explain away general incompetence or personal preference.

    Thomas was given the contract based on his 2015-16 season, last season numbers are irrelevant to this discussion.

    In 2015-16 Lance Thomas was 50th out of 61 small forwards in terms of Real Defensive Plus Minus. The funny part here is that he was widely seen as defensively superior for Melo at times, who was almost league average last year.

    @190

    Perception matters.

    And well, I think it’s much more about the overarching narrative and the specific reasoning behind loving Baker specifically.

    Nobody ever called Rose, Carmelo or Timmy “bright young men”, “capable of out thinking opponents”, “such a hard worker that he’ll find a way to succeed” etc etc. They’re overrated because they have shown stuff on a basketball court, whether you agree that what they’ve shown should be praised or not.

    Ron Baker has shown literally nothing on the court, other than “playing the right way” and running from one place to another instead of jogging. All JK47 referred to, and I agree with him, is that young black men do not get the same treatment, and are much more likely to be seen as “thugs” or as not very bright.

    I’m surprised we haven’t heard of more teams trying to be a 3rd or 4th participant to facilitate trades that could move Kyrie and/or Melo. We seem to hear the same 4 teams.

    There is so much money involved in these contracts, there are some great opportunities for teams to unload some redundancies or ill fitting pieces.

    I wouldn’t be too upset with the following:
    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8ouc55b

    Houston gets their man, Portland gets Anderson as many anticipate, which would suit their currently constructed team, Boston frees up cap space for next year when they’ll need it to keep Thomas and really don’t affect their current depth. I like Crowder and his friendly contract compared to production helps. It would make me feel better about taking in Turner.

    And what if the Cavs thought a little out of the box.
    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yd2yf43p

    The NBA is a strange world. Racism plays out in more directions than in most other worlds due to a relative balance of power at all levels except perhaps ownership. White Men Can’t Jump and the Soft European are two stereotypes that are part of basketball culture, not sure if there is an analogue in other sports. Historically, the vast majority of the great players at the “quarterback” position have been black, and when discussing the most intelligent players in history, the first names that come up for many are are Russell, Oscar, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Kidd, Walton, Duncan, i.e. a pretty balanced cross-section.

    That’s not to say that institutional racism isn’t affecting the NBA world. The incident at LeBron’s house bears that out. But “he’s a high IQ, scrappy player” is not a term reserved for whites in this particular sport, at least not the way I see it.

    I think Ron Baker gets rooted for because he is scrappy, plays hard and is perceived as an underdog. I am not sure race has much to do with it. People rooted for Ndour and for Balkman for similar reasons, and they are not the same race.

    I don’t think race has as much to do with it as you guys think(it definitely plays some factor in it). Ron plays hard, was undrafted and has a goofy look that’s endearing to a lot of fans. We loved Galloway because he played hard, was undrafted and has a great name.

    Its not like Travis Wear or Cole Aldrich had a cult following among the fanbase.

    Perception matters.

    Oh, I agree. In fact, that’s my point regarding Lance Thomas. He’s a total scrub on defense who got a multiyear deal because “he plays the right way.” Did his race affect the way he was perceived? Here is what KP and Horny said about Lance:

    “Lance is always a player that brings the right mindset to the team,” said Kristaps Porzingis. “He’s always there with his energy and his defensive mindset. We need that, we really missed him. For me, he was one the main guys (we missed) while we were so bad defensively. Now that he’s back, I think he’s gonna bring us back that defensive edge.”

    “His defensive aggressiveness helps the other guys,’’ Hornacek said. “It helps to see how hard you can go. When he is getting after it you almost have to do that to your guy.’’

    Does this perception reflect the reality of his actual defensive impact? And if it doesn’t, how do you explain away that discrepancy under the looming specter of institutional racism which is supposed to cause the regular devaluation of black players?

    See, here is the problem – a standard isn’t being applied consistently. If institutional racism persisted in regularly devaluing black vs. white players then Lance Thomas wouldn’t have been overpaid with a multiyear contract like Ron. Obviously, there is something else at play here – namely, that our FO and coaching staff regularly overvalue their own players whether they are white or black.

    It’s pretty hard to say if a comment is based on race here in general because we don’t know if this is a majority black or white discussion board. I’m a white guy but I don’t ever discuss anything in terms of race ever. I actually always have assumed that I was talking with a majority of people that are black because I’m constantly told in my area in Upstate NY that I am the only person that loves the NBA as much as I do and I’m surrounded by white people.

    The way I see it, it’s not a matter of one term being used solely to refer to whites or blacks etc. Yes, there are many examples of incredibly smart people of color in the NBA, and they are well respected for it.

    My concern / complaint about the Ron Baker case specifically is that white scrappy dudes like him get the high IQ tag by default. Ron Baker has done nothing in a basketball court to show he’s such an intelligent person and basketball player. We have no idea how he was as a student, or how he is as a person, he hasn’t shown some kind of impressive shot selection or super high IQ plays, and yet people assume he’s smart by default, do you understand?

    Most people would never assume the same about a black young man in the same position as Baker is in, that’s my point.

    @196

    Regular devaluation of black players? Where in any of my posts did you get that I think white players in general are overvalued in relation to black players? All I’ve said is that Lance Thomas has shown more on the court to deserve his contract than Baker has.

    damn, son.

    My concern / complaint about the Ron Baker case specifically is that white scrappy dudes like him get the high IQ tag by default.

    The point is that all scrappy dudes get overrated as high IQ. Whether its Ron or its Lance.

    Regular devaluation of black players? Where in any of my posts did you get that I think white players in general are overvalued in relation to black players?

    Um…

    YOU: Ron Baker has shown literally nothing on the court, other than “playing the right way” and running from one place to another instead of jogging. All JK47 referred to, and I agree with him, is that young black men do not get the same treatment, and are much more likely to be seen as “thugs” or as not very bright.

    Is not claiming that “young black men are more likely to be seen as thugs or not very bright” claiming that they are being devalued relative to non-black players like Ron?

    Sometimes I think players get overvalued for NBA teams for similar reasons that they do in corporations and other not sports arenas. Employees who are easy to manage tend to get glowing reviews from their bosses. By easy to manage I mean they do what is assigned without being reminded, they try to do it just the way the boss wants, and they clearly look like they care about the same things the boss does. This sort of behavior can get people promoted into positions they aren’t ready for. In the NBA, as fans, we don’t hear what the coach tells the players to do, but I suspect something similar happens. When some players are asked to say, run to the corner on every play, or play the triangle, or take some actions on defense, they do it willingly and with a good attitude. Those players might shoot lousily from the corner or be poor defenders in actuality. There is nothing wrong with doing what the coach wants, but they may still get glowing review from the coach (“he plays the right way”, for example) despite poor actual results and then get a nice contract from the team. I suspect Lance and Ron are both like this, and they may be getting overpaid because of it (although I of course hope they perform up to their pay grade). This can happen with any color player.

    @203

    No, definitely not. Many players were seen as thugs or as not very bright people and have made a lot of money in the NBA, there’s a million other factors involved, the most important being skill on the court. Zach Randolph was called a thug for years and years, and it hasn’t stopped him from making tens of millions of dollars.

    If you believe white scrappy dudes and black scrappy dudes are treated the same way, well, there’s nothing much I can say to you. I disagree, and it’s a perception that I have, that obviously has quite some bias to it (it’s my opinion, after all, it’s obviously a product of what I am). You’re free to disagree.

    Word out of Phoenix is that they will not trade Josh Jackson in any deal for Kyrie Irving. That has to take them out of the running, no? Bledsoe, Chriss, and a picks package can’t actually be enough to entice Cleveland.

    I think Melo and Bledsoe end up in Cleveland, Kyrie comes to NY, and Phoenix gets a bunch of assets.

    If you believe white scrappy dudes and black scrappy dudes are treated the same way, well, there’s nothing much I can say to you.

    I didn’t say this so don’t misinterpret me. I said scrappy players, whether they are white or black, are overrated and that attributing this fact to institutional racism is a mistake. Ron Baker, Lance Thomas, and even your example of Zach Thomas prove this. Randolph is precisely the type of player who rebranded his career as scrappy, hard-working, unselfish face of the Grizzlies revival despite being labeled a “thug for years.” He even has used the term himself. Here is a 2013 article titled “In the Mud with Zach Randolph…”

    When the “Grit-Grind” culture emerged for Memphis, which really sparked its run of success, Randolph became the poster man alongside Allen for it. They became the team that’s willing to go the extra mile to claw for a loose ball, who’s reliant on making the right play, not creating highlight reels. Randolph sums it up masterfully.
    This is us. Scrappy, grit’n’grind, hustling. We ain’t fancy. We ain’t running up and down the court throwing lobs and doing windmills,” he said.
    “We in the mud.”

    Its that perception which has allowed Randolph to be overpaid a nice two year contract this offseason despite being well past his prime. So even by your own example, the point is that being scrappy even applies to overrating black players who have fought negative stereotypes for years like Randolph.

    Also, you’re contradicting yourself, Bruno. I asked you if:

    Is not claiming that “young black men are more likely to be seen as thugs or not very bright” claiming that they are being devalued relative to non-black players like Ron?

    You said

    No, definitely not.

    Then you proceed to argue in the same post that:

    If you believe white scrappy dudes and black scrappy dudes are treated the same way, well, there’s nothing much I can say to you.

    Which is it?

    I think Melo and Bledsoe end up in Cleveland, Kyrie comes to NY, and Phoenix gets a bunch of assets.

    I think Melo wants Houston and Houston is what he’ll get.

    Honestly I don’t even think it’s a big thing. I do think there’s an “Eckstein Effect” going on with Ron and that he’s perceived as scrappier than he really is. But it’s just human nature. He kind of looks like he should be in One Direction or something.

    @209

    You are reading a lot more in my words than what I have written. You pick up a statement and talk as if I created a general rule applying to every situation objectively.

    treated =/= being paid.

    you used the word devalued; I responded with Randolph saying that he had the thug perception and still got paid a lot (and my answer to your reply is that he got paid plenty too before “rebranding” himself as a scrappy player).

    I answered no to the idea that people of color are being devalued in terms of money in comparison to white players; I do still stand by my perception (once again, perception, I’m not claiming objectivity in any way here) that white players get seen in a more favourable light, almost by default, than their black counterparts in many ways: media, fan reaction, etc.

    I’ve never argued that Ron got his contract because the Knicks FO thinks he’s smart; I have no idea what they think. But the fans embracing Baker and the media embracing Baker as this bright young man is something I don’t see happen with black men who similarly show very little in terms of basketball skills.

    you used the word devalued

    I didn’t use the word devalue strictly in terms of money, but I can see how you thought that as I am comparing contracts. I use in terms of their value as players, which I believe is reflected in the money they are offered.

    But the fans embracing Baker and the media embracing Baker as this bright young man is something I don’t see happen with black men who similarly show very little in terms of basketball skills.

    Which brings us back to the crux of my point – then how do you explain the way Lance Thomas (or even a waaaay over the hill Zach Randolph today) is similarly portrayed?

    I don’t think the fans and or the media have widespread embraced Lance Thomas as a bright man. Some people have embraced him as a scrappy, valuable player, yes.

    Its a specific situation, Lance Thomas can be considered in the same way by fans / media as Baker without changing the fact that most black young man dont get this treatment.

    Most of all, they dont get this treatment for free; in my personal opinion, they have to earn it a lot more than their white counterparts. That’s the key point in my perception. Lance Thomas has been building this perception for 6 years, and I’d argue it’s still not widespread. Baker got it for free pretty much and by interviews with people who worked with him. Not that its necessarily widespread too; just that it seems to come a lot easier for white dudes in similar situations.

    I’m quite aware there’s contradictions in my speech, I think if you look hard enough you’ll find them anywhere you look. I don’t see how that invalidates something I’ve verbalized as an opinion.

    I don’t think the fans and or the media have widespread embraced Lance Thomas as a bright man. Some people have embraced him as a scrappy, valuable player, yes.

    Fans have embraced his approach to the game as smart.

    Thomas is an underrated defender, not great, but an active defender on the perimeter and smart off the ball.

    Lance Thomas: How He Got To The NBA
    This is one smart guy, not to mention hard working.

    Thomas is the kind of player who makes an intangible impact. He’s an intelligent defender and isn’t one to back down from challenge

    …..

    Most of all, they dont get this treatment for free; in my personal opinion, they have to earn it a lot more than their white counterparts. That’s the key point in my perception. Lance Thomas has been building this perception for 6 years, and I’d argue it’s still not widespread.

    I just want to know how we can prove this with actual examples because Lance Thomas negates this principle. He is a terrible player. I’m still confused as to how he’s earned any type of adulation beyond pure hype. He’s not even good at what he’s supposed to be good at, yet there is a perception of him as someone who knows how to play the game the right way within that role. I will grant you that there is a perception that white players are less talented and must therefore rely on their intelligence to thrive. I just deny that this also doesn’t apply to less talented black players too. And its because there is a premium on “scrappy” guys who “play the right way.”

    We can agree to disagree then, because I won’t try to (or be able to, most likely) produce the objective, actual examples you seem to require.

    I think Lance Thomas or Zach Randolph can be perceived in that way without negating the whole discussion, but if you feel that way, it’s a different perspective.

    There is a segment of any fan base that will overpraise any of their players. When a player has few actual strengths, fans tend to fall back on easily accessible but vague tropes. In Baker’s case, because he’s an unathletic white guy with few basketball skills who went undrafted but still made an NBA roster, the default assumption is that he’s scrappy and smart. There’s no actual evidence that he’s smart, and his scrappiness is pretty debatable too.

    People aren’t trying to use stereotypes, it’s just where our minds go when we don’t have a genuine answer. The real issue here is that Ron is very bad at NBA basketball, so fans who are desperate to praise him have nothing substantial to point to. He’s a 15th man masquerading as a rotation guard, being paid like a lottery pick.

    i agree with Bruno…the fact that you think Lance and Baker are equatable in this example is weird. Baker has done nothing in his career to warrant his contract. I really don’t think that if Baker was black he would have gotten the praise he’s getting. He would be out of the league after his pathetic display this season. Meanwhile, much better, younger players like Tyler Ennis get contracts like this: http://www.calisportsnews.com/lakers-re-sign-point-guard-tyler-ennis/

    Lance Thomas’s contract is undeserved too but at least he spent years toiling in the league to eventually trick the dumbass knicks. He also at least has positive career win shares and can shoot the three…same cannot be said of Baker.

    There’s a well-known cognitive bias called the endowment effect. In studies, people consistently and illogically assign more value to things they own than identical things that somebody else owns.

    If Sacramento had signed Ron out of college, given him the same contract he has now, and immediately offered him to us as a salary dump, 100% of Knick fans would laugh in their faces. But since he’s our guy instead of their guy, some people will twist themselves up defending the contract.

    Where’s Reub with the positive spin on all this race related back & forth when we need him?

    Baker has done nothing in his career to warrant his contract.

    And Lance Thomas has?

    Lance Thomas’s contract is undeserved too but at least he spent years toiling in the league to eventually trick the dumbass knicks.

    Wouldn’t that make him less deserved since he has a longer sample size to show he’s garbage?

    He also at least has positive career win shares and can shoot the three…same cannot be said of Baker.

    He’s played 7 seasons, I would hope so.

    The Glass,
    I like the trade, but think Phoenix won’t go for it. They aren’t really getting much back for Bledsoe, and it doesn’t seem to make the better right away or, other than the draft pick and Jaramaz, give them better rebuilding than they had.

    In pretty much the same amount of attempts, Thomas shot 44% from 3 last season and Baker shot 26%

    that’s enough for a front office to see a huge difference between both guys, imo.

    Bruno, I get that this is a personal issue for you, but it is contradicted by the available evidence.

    If it’s the Knicks who overvalue Baker because he’s white, then what about Lance Thomas & Galloway? (And a million more bad contracts?)

    If it’s the fans, what about our love for Galloway, Starks, Landry Fields, and players like them?

    I think you’re mistaking race issues for underdog stories. Especially in NY, we love the overachieving underdogs. We hate super talented lazy players. Starks, despite 2-18, always has a place in our hearts. Tim Thomas doesn’t. Oakley is loved, Eddy Curry is not.

    There are literally dozens of examples that demonstrate the opposite of your position. The single exception I can think of is Ewing. I witnessed a lot of ugly stuff from fans around him. But there aren’t a lot of counter examples. Chris Dudley, not beloved. Travis Wear, not beloved. And so on.

    Elsewhere in the league, same thing. Tim Duncan is regarded as one of the most cerebral players ever to play the game. Chris Anderson, not.

    If there is any racism with Ron, it could even be the reverse – he’s a physically talented guy, but people on the board are calling him unathletic. Where is the data on that? Because it isn’t his measurables, which are average to excellent. That’s why he could defend well, even if he couldn’t throw the ball in the ocean. Even though white guys are shooters, right?

    So let it go. It isn’t true of the team or the fans.

    By the way, did you not notice how people are excited about Frank because of his high IQ as well as his defense and good shot? When people comment that they’re ok with the pick because they are confident he can adapt to any system, is that racism? I don’t think so…

    Starks, despite 2-18, always has a place in our hearts. Tim Thomas doesn’t. Oakley is loved, Eddy Curry is not.

    Starks and Oakley were beloved because they were awesome basketball players on great teams, and Thomas and Curry were hated because they were shitty basketball players on shitty teams.

    If there is any racism with Ron, it could even be the reverse – he’s a physically talented guy, but people on the board are calling him unathletic. Where is the data on that? Because it isn’t his measurables, which are average to excellent. That’s why he could defend well, even if he couldn’t throw the ball in the ocean. Even though white guys are shooters, right?

    Yeah, the point about athleticism is well taken. And shooting-wise, for his college career, he shot 50% from 2, 37% from 3 and 80% from the line over 4 years. But because his 800 minutes worth of stats at the NBA level were lousy (similar to Russell and Mudiay, who are much younger but also much more hyped and drafted much higher) people are assuming that that is who he will always be. If his shooting regresses to the mean, he will easily be a productive NBA player. As to his b-ball IQ and scrappiness, every previous coach, and every scout, have listed it as a major plus. But I didn’t suggest to his detractors here that he was being dismissed by them because he was white. Every argument I made was based on either his college stats, his measurables, aspects of his scouting reports, or his game film. Playing the race card in his case is gratuitous and beneath the level of discussion here. Both his praise and criticism are well deserved and defensible without polluting the discourse with innuendo.

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