Knicks Morning News (2017.07.23)

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Bernard King on Knicks
    (Sunday, July 23, 2017 1:02:17 AM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis says New York ‘is the best place to win’ at Latvian kids camp
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 2:59:01 PM)

    Knicks star F Kristaps Porzingis believes New York gives him the best opportunity to win, per The Post’s Marc Berman.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Scott Perry, Steve Mills blazing new trails of minority leadership
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 8:27:23 PM)

    When the Knicks hired Scott Perry as general manager last week and elevated Steve Mills to president, the team became the first NBA franchise to have two African-Americans serving in those top management spots.

  • [NYDN] How Kyrie Irving would impact Knicks, Spurs, Timberwolves or Heat
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:34:50 AM)

    Let’s take a look at how Kyrie Irving going to one of his four teams might work.

  • [NYTimes] Yankees 5, Mariners 1: Aaron Judge’s Power Bursts Back Into View With a Towering Blast
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 7:25:19 AM)

    Judge, who had been mired in a slump since the All-Star break, crushed a home run that nearly left Safeco Field in the Yankees’ win.

  • [NYPost] Knicks GM Scott Perry dishes on how soul food creates a winner
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 10:58:14 PM)

    New Knicks general manager Scott Perry takes a shot at some Q&A with Post columnist Steve Serby. Q: From an intangible standpoint, describe the perfect Scott Perry basketball player. A: Tough … competitive … intelligent … would do anything it takes to win. Q: How would you characterize your managerial style? A: I would say…

  • [NYPost] Why Kyrie Irving could be too steep of a price for Knicks
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:13:56 PM)

    Something big was needed to take the focus, if even for a day or a few hours, away from the Carmelo Anthony saga as the center of the Knicks’ universe. And Kyrie Irving wanting out of Cleveland did just that. Especially with the Knicks as one of the teams occupying a slot on his preferred…

  • [NYPost] A Latvian kid got Kristaps Porzingis to clarify his Knicks future
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 10:11:45 AM)

    Although Latvian journalists were instructed not to query Kristaps Porzingis about the Knicks travails during training camp for the European Championships, a kid camper had no such restrictions. Last weekend at a basketball camp in Latvia attended by about 250 children, one youngster asked Porzingis in his native tongue why he wouldn’t abandon New York,…

  • 85 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.23)”

    I just saw this tool online:

    http://nbamath.com/nba-play-type-data/

    Which is really useful to visualize data and compare players, both on the offensive and defensive end. For example, you can comparte Carmelo Anthony to Lebron James offensively. You can see that Carmelo is better in Isolation and Spot-up, but Lebron is much better in transition, Pnr Ball handler, Pnr roll man, and cuts to the basket (and on the defensive end, much better overall)..

    You can also compare Dame Lillard to Kyrie Irving defensively. Lillard is worse defending shooters off screens, but better or equal in everything else.

    EDIT: You can also see the frequency of this plays and the PPP, which makes you wonder why Melo does not spot up more often.

    Therin lies the rub about Melo, should always have been 2nd or 3rd option but has rarely been anything but #1. That’s why Houston is such a compelling location for him. Or any of the teams in the discussion. He’d be a really great fit in Minny next to Butler and Towns.

    I’m not sure if this has been mentioned before, but for those who are interested in learning more about Scott Perry, Woj did a 45 minutes interview with him on his podcast of June 2nd.

    @iserp Thanks for posting that. It shows Kyrie to be an excellent defender in the category “off screens”. Just have Frank guard the opposing 1 guards and Kyrie the SGs and we’d be fine against many teams. Timmy’s gotta play SF which might make him a better defender.

    Regarding Dotson, I’m relieved he didn’t take the min for a year; if I were his agent I would have advised him to have done that. I would have preferred NYK to have given him a 4 year deal at 2m/yr instead of a 3 yr deal at about 1m/yr especially when we gave Baker 4.5m/yr.

    Interesting stat from that link: KP, Timmy, Courtney, Kyrie are all 78%+ in the play type “cutting” on offense. Triangle?

    Dotson is a mid 2nd rounder that hasn’t played a second of NBA ball. The contract he signed is below his perceived value based on strong summer league performance in the watered down Orlando league. I guess his agent could have played hardball, but given the rape allegations and his age, it’s a fair deal for him and a great deal for us.

    When does the euro champ sched come out? I’m jonesing to see KP, Willy, Kuz, and I think Frank and OJ play.

    Thanks for posting that. It shows Kyrie to be an excellent defender in the category “off screens”.

    Which are just 6% of the plays he had to defend (not to mention that the sample size might be small, with just 52 of such those plays).

    In the 44% in which he had to defend the PnR ball handler he was quite bad.

    I think its 31 August if I’m not mistaken.

    Frank will not play iirc, France has announced their squad and I don’t remember him… then again, the French team is stacked with guards (De Colo, Fournier, Luwawu-Cabarrot, Thomas Heurtel, Roddy Beaubois).

    Labeyrie should play, as the team is much weaker in the big men positions.

    Dotson is a mid 2nd rounder that hasn’t played a second of NBA ball. The contract he signed is below his perceived value based on strong summer league performance in the watered down Orlando league. I guess his agent could have played hardball, but given the rape allegations and his age, it’s a fair deal for him and a great deal for us.

    The biggest leverage that the Knicks have is that they’re the only team he can play for in the States. So where else is he going? Outside of “I just won’t play in the NBA,” second round draft picks have zero leverage, which is why they often sign below market, team friendly deals (like Willy’s deal, for instance). It’s still good to see the Knicks actually sign him to it, though. I’m quite pleased with it. It’s good to see a good ol’ fashioned nice team friendly deal.

    He could have signed a 1-year deal and riske being a UFA, which would have been a reasonable call.

    They presumably did not offer him that option. It was likely something along the lines of “Sign this or go play in Europe.” He really doesn’t have a lot of say while they control his NBA rights. He certainly would have preferred a one-year if possible. That’a why second round draft picks can offer a ton of value to teams. I am glad the Knicks actually have one for a change.

    Are you sure about that Brian? I figured the NYK had to give him at least a min 1 year contract or relinquish any NBA rights to him. The risk to the player in taking a 1 year deal would be the possibilities of suffering a major injury or not playing well or not getting any minutes. He then might be out of the league after that first year and will have lost some money had he taken a 2-4 year deal.

    I just located an article that appears to explain it. Here’s a direct quote:

    There’s an unsaid – sometimes, said – tension behind every contract negotiation between teams and second-round picks. To retain a second-rounder’s rights, a team must extend him a required tender. A required tender is a one-year contract offer, and because that’s the only requirement, it’s always for the minimum and fully unguaranteed.

    Teams want to sign players to longer contracts with little to no guaranteed money. That way, if the player pans out, he’s cheap and can’t go anywhere. If he doesn’t pan out, he can be waived for minimal cost.

    Second-rounders have varying interests. Some want a long-term deal with more money guaranteed or scheduled if not released. Others want to hit free agency sooner, so they can bargain with all 30 teams rather than just the one that drafted him. For most, both desires apply. Receive enough over a long-term contract, and free agency becomes far less important. Face a cheap long-term deal, and the player can always threaten to sign the required tender.

    Link to article:
    http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/06/21/why-second-round-nba-draft-picks-might-get-paid-more-than-first-rounders-this-year/

    Right, they have to offer him a contract. They don’t have to offer him any particular contract, though, just that it has to be at least the required tender (which is one year, non guaranteed). By offering him this three-year deal, they locked in his rights and he has little leverage to say no to it.

    But Dotson could have said I’ll only take a 1 year min deal. The NYK could have said no to that but then he’d have been a free agent and could have signed with any NBA team. That’s how I read it.

    Time for me to do some backpedaling..

    After thinking more about it, although it would be nice to have a Kyrie on this team- warts and all, I’m officially against trading for him. The biggest reason is it would cost too much to make that trade. My second reason is our Knicks haven’t developed top talent since Ewing. We now have at least 3 young players who might fit that description in KP, Willy, and Ntilikina. And quite frankly, I’m excited to see them grow together- plus it will be at a team controlled cost that makes it cheaper. Cleveland had that opportunity with Kyrie and Wiggins until LeBron went back. Thirdly, out of Kyrie’s preferred destinations, Minnesota has the best package to offer Cleveland without sacrificing what would make them a legit contender. San Antonio is close, but there’s no way Cleveland wants Aldridge and it would be hard finding a deal with a 3rd team to satisfy all parties. Whereas Minnesota can offer Teague, Wiggins, and Dieng if they have to and still be a top West team. Cleveland would still be a legit title contender as well. That’s a solid trade for the NBA, let alone those 2 teams.

    I say we stay the course and see what Mills & Perry can do with all this youth and flexibility we now have- provided the Melo trade gets done

    Yes, let this core grow a bit and add another piece in next year’s draft.

    Having said that, if you can steal KI, do so. But, some team will offer them a fair deal if the Cavs really want to dump him.

    I’m scared of these reports that the Knicks are willing to offer multiple picks “without thinking” and such. And stuff like this on Hoopshype: “…trade Carmelo Anthony and a few first round picks…”

    A FEW!?

    the thing is, Minnesota shouldn’t be able to trade Teague right?

    He was signed as an unrestricted free agent and thus can only be traded in December 15 isn’t it?

    He was signed as an unrestricted free agent and thus can only be traded in December 15 isn’t it?

    Right. But that’s not too far away. Kyrie can wait that long if he really wants out

    Here’s a trade which should make EVERYONE happy:

    Knicks……Kyrie, Chandler
    Cavs……….Melo, Bledsoe, KOQ (via trade exception), Randle (via trade exception)
    Phoenix….NYK 2018 (protect 1-4), Cleveland pick, Osman, Felder, Tavares, Frye

    My big worry about the Knicks is that we have a hole at point guard, the most important position in the NBA. We have the 4 and 5 locked up long term and we have a nice, albeit grossly overpaid, wing in THJ, but I don’t see who plays PG over the next couple seasons. Frank, who I don’t have a ton a faith in, is probably 3 years away from even being an average NBA PG, if he even is a PG and if he even develops, and that means 3 years of KP’s and Willy’s development squandered on a 30 win team. KP alone is going to make us too good to get real difference makers in the draft but with what will probably be the worst PG play in the NBA over the next 3 years I don’t see us fielding a good squad no matter how much KP develops and with our cap I don’t see how we get even an average stopgap PG to bridge Frank’s hopeful development.

    This is why I’m more prone to give away more for Kyrie, not because I think he is some generational talent but because he is legitimately good, the right age, and fixes our broken roster. We have no PG and no realistic way to get one till 2020 when we have cap room. That’s a long time for KP and Willy to be stuck on a mediocre team. Two top 3 protected picks + any players other than Willy or KP is a no brainer to me.

    KP + Kyrie is 2/3 of a contender. Willy and THJ as role players and a star in free agency in 2020 and all of a sudden we are a real contender. That star only comes if we’re showing a real upward momentum prior to that. If we’re the Pelicans, floundering around with a superstar and a poorly built team, no one will come.

    Trading away two lottery picks for Kyrie is so fucking Knicksy. If Cleveland wants Melo and some kind of protected first for Kyrie I can get behind that, anything more and the Knicks should walk away from the table. Adding Kyrie would be nice, but there’s no reason to go nuts chasing after him.

    @21 – Not a chance I trade away a 1st round pick of any kind. We are in the business of collecting 1st round picks. We are in no other business. Add kids 25 or younger. Jettison players 29 or over.

    Not a chance I trade away a 1st round pick of any kind. We are in the business of collecting 1st round picks. We are in no other business. Add kids 25 or younger. Jettison players 29 or over.

    You do realize Kyrie is 25yo, right?

    Trading away two lottery picks for Kyrie is so fucking Knicksy. If Cleveland wants Melo and some kind of protected first for Kyrie I can get behind that, anything more and the Knicks should walk away from the table. Adding Kyrie would be nice, but there’s no reason to go nuts chasing after him

    Everyone would have been fine if we had given up just 2 1st round picks for Melo in that Denver trade but all of a sudden trading 2 picks for a younger (at the time) better player than Melo at a position of need is ridiculous? Put a bit of protection on each pick because Kyrie’s only got 2 years left versus the Melo 4 years.

    I realize Kyrie is 25 years old. I realize he’s on a 3-year deal. I realize that he’s better than what we have.

    I also don’t think we are ever going to win a championship with him and that he has little to do with a future that includes a title for the Knicks. He’s a slightly better version of Derrick Rose.

    Kyrie is 25 or younger and everyone here is overvaluing late lottery picks. Besides with Kyrie they’re not even lottery picks. We probably win 40+ games with Kyrie.

    If you have a good PG you are a good team. It’s that simple.

    Top 8 PGs in no order:
    Curry – 67 wins #1 seed in west
    Harden – 55 wins #3 seed in west
    Paul – 51 wins #4 seed in west
    Westbrook – 47 wins #6 seed in west
    Thomas – 53 wins #1 seed in east
    Irving – 51 wins #2 seed in east
    Lowry – 51 wins #3 seed in east
    Wall – 49 wins #4 seed in east

    Out of the top 8 point guards 7 were 4 seeds or better and the last one was a 6 seed with a truly terrible supporting cast. The only teams that won more that 43 games that didn’t have a top 8 PG was Utah who had Hill, still probably top ten last year, and San Antonio who has Kahwi and the best coach in the world, maybe ever.

    In the modern NBA you cannot win without a very good PG. We don’t have one and we have no idea if Frank has any shot to become one. Where do we get one? We’ll never be anything more than average till we find one.

    everyone would have been fine if we had given up just 2 1st round picks for Melo in that Denver trade but all of a sudden trading 2 picks for a younger (at the time) better player than Melo at a position of need is ridiculous? Put a bit of protection on each pick because Kyrie’s only got 2 years left versus the Melo 4 years.

    A lot of people hated the idea of giving away good young assets and 1st round picks for Melo. We were clearly right.

    The problem with Kyrie is on the defensive side of the ball. He’s BAD. We already have a suspect starting lineup on D with Hardaway and WH. Plus, as good as KP is defensively in some ways, he’s weak in others. If the idea is to improve our defense, we’d be on the fast track to getting worse with Kyrie.

    That’s not to say I would’t trade for him, but I would not open the vaults for a guy that plays no defense and whose scoring efficiency, while good, is not great despite the benefit of playing with Lebron.

    Of course our current management is utterly incompetent so I doubt very much they are aware of any of this. They are probably focusing on points per game, fancy shot making, and the fact that he played in the finals and is a big name.

    One other reason to hoard assets is that so you have pieces to trade when a true bona fide star is on the market, and when you’re on the verge of true contention. You don’t fritter away those assets for two years of Kyrie Irving when you’re a shitty team that is miles away from truly contending.

    That is precisely how you end up with two years of first round playoff exits followed by several years of asset-starved hopeless suckitude.

    If you have a good PG you are a good team. It’s that simple.

    Top 8 PGs in no order:
    Curry – 67 wins #1 seed in west
    Harden – 55 wins #3 seed in west
    Paul – 51 wins #4 seed in west
    Westbrook – 47 wins #6 seed in west
    Thomas – 53 wins #1 seed in east
    Irving – 51 wins #2 seed in east
    Lowry – 51 wins #3 seed in east
    Wall – 49 wins #4 seed in east

    Um, only one of the PG on that list was on a team with a guy who is, arguably, the greatest player in NBA history, and had a monster year last year. I wonder who that was? How many games did the Cavs win with just Kyrie before LBJ? Just curious.

    Look, the Knicks will be locked in to mediocrity if they deal for KI. He’s going to be expensive. We’re not getting him without giving up at least two good assets, probably, meaning Frank/Willy plus the 2018 #1 pick. You only do something like that for a guy who is supposedly the last piece of the puzzle.

    I really don’t want to diss on KI, b/c he is a very good player, an excellent scoring PG. However, he’s also going to opt out in 2 years and get a max deal from someone. The Knicks are not yet ready to trade young assets/picks for a player. Maybe in a year or two. Keep your options open for awhile.

    Be patient. Maybe you can get KI in 2 years, or someone else. A few years ago the Knicks were impatient with getting Melo; let’s not make the same mistake again.

    People keep saying two years. This whole trade business is so he doesn’t have to opt out. With the current CBA if Irving hits free agency he leaves tens of millions of dollars on the table. He wants to end up somewhere where he can stay and get a mega max extension.

    Besides with no PG we are already locked into mediocrity for the next three years anyway. Kyrie gives us a legit chance with KP growing to win 50 games by the 2020. Without him we win between 30-40 get picks in the 8-15 range and still have no PG.

    I would trade Kyrie for Melo straight up. To me, they are the same player, different positions.

    @28 – You made my point. I don’t want anything but a high lottery pick next year and the year after. I want 3 top-10 players in a draft. Yes, it would be nice to have the golden-ticket but you can get All-NBA caliber players with those types of picks. I fact, you can get Steph Curry at #7 and Antetokounmpo at #15 and Jimmy Butler at #30 and Kawhi Leonard at #15.

    I want to trade for 1st round picks – whatever I can get for them. I want them.

    KP is going to prevent us from a top 6 or 7 pick and if our plan is draft Kawhi or Giannis at 15 that’s a real bad plan.

    Yes that’s the plan. Draft a hall of famer at 15. That’s what we’re saying.

    In other news..the Knicks are cornering the market on..sheesh I don’t know what to call it. I don’t like the term “minority” because in these times it implies negativity and no one should be proud of being “a minority”. That’s more a term numbers, but here we use numbers to describe people like America is one big prison. I also don’t like the term “African American” because although it’s accurate by definition, it’s kinda painful because it implies that it’s a group of people who were willingly assimilated into American culture when everyone knows that’s not true- especially when those same people are viewed as more of a threat by many when they begin to rediscover and accept their heritage. Blacks seem too basic and inviting of negative feelings- gosh I wish we didn’t have to describe people with superficial terms. But in any case, with Mills, Perry, and now Madkins- our Knicks have become the 1st pro sports franchise to have historically disenfranchised people in those upper management positions. That is groundbreaking and doesn’t get enough press. If they succeed in those positions, I will be even more proud of those guys and the franchise.

    Melo and Kyrie may be “the same player” but Kyrie is significantly younger so a straight up trade would not be agreed to by the Cavs. I wouldn’t mind adding Kyrie if the price wasn’t too high (no multiple first rounders), I think he would obviously help at a position of dire need despite his faults. The real unknown here is how good will Frank turn out? No one has the answer to that question, so including him in any of these proposed trades comes with a lot of risk. If we knew he was only going to be average or worse, then sure ship him out. But if he turns into an all star then the Knicks will likely regret it. I don’t trust the Knicks FO to make an accurate assessment of this or hold to a deal that’s in their favor ( for once).
    The good news is I believe one of the other teams, Minnesota or Miami will make a better offer.
    The more I think about it, the best plan may be to get in on a 3 team trade where the Knicks ship out Melo and say Lee/Oquinn and get back draft picks and throw ins to facilitate some other team getting Kyrie. The rebuild stays on track, they keep they’re young assets (for better or worse), and get rid of Melo.

    I don’t give a flying fuck what race, gender, nationality, or whatever classification you want to use, any of the front office is. I’ll judge them based on the decisions that are made. So far they are 0-2.

    If they succeed in those positions, I will be even more proud of those guys and the franchise.

    My only concern is a wish that people of color not have to be cronies like Mills to get ahead in the world. But I recognize the world isn’t perfect.

    The Cavs are 4-23 without LeBron over the last 3 seasons. So anyone who’s saying the Knicks become a 45-win team just by swapping Melo for Kyrie should think again.

    How many times do we have to make the same mistake — “if we just add this new volume scorer to our crappy team, we’ll be great, so our draft picks won’t matter!” — before we learn our lesson?

    Melo and Kyrie may be “the same player” but Kyrie is significantly younger so a straight up trade would not be agreed to by the Cavs.

    Cavs arent in the business of getting fair value of their assets. They are in the business of winning a ring next year. So even if some other teams can offer a better haul, they might value better having Melo, even if his value is rapidly decreasing. So I dont understand why do we have to throw every pick we have in our hands for the deal.

    I dont like Kyrie, and I’d rather not trade Frank or any other 1st round pick. Adding Kyrie to KP feels too close to adding Deron Williams to Brook Lopez to feel comfortable (And Deron was way better at the time of the trade than Kyrie is).

    Kyrie and Lillard are very similar players. Lillard’s numbers are even a little better, especially considering he doesn’t play alongside one of the most unselfish superstars in league history.

    Portland has won 44 and 41 games with Lillard as their star, and seem to have maxed out their celing. They have a better supporting cast than the Knicks. That’s instructive for us.

    Kyrie’s offensive rating is 114 when LeBron plays, 108 when he doesn’t.

    labs.statmuse.com/questions/157456c5-9994-47da-aaa7-a9bf2d402368

    You know who else had a 108 offensive rating last year? Carmelooooo ANTH-ony.

    “Everyone would have been fine if we had given up just 2 1st round picks for Melo in that Denver trade ”

    Who is everyone? Because the vast majority of Knickerblogger was against it, and we were right.

    We’re right now, too. No Kyrie trade unless we unload Melo plus a protected pick. And honestly, even that seems stupid to me, given that Kyrie is a net positive, but not by a lot. With maturation from KP, Frank being the real deal, and MKG or someone like him, we could make it work on D, but that’s what it would take.

    Kemba Walker was very similar to Kyrie last year. Anybody wanna trade the farm for Kemba Walker?

    I just want to see the team we’ve assembled so far play together without Melo. Is that so much to ask for?

    i think ppl can rest easy that kyrie won’t be traded to us…. so most are getting annoyed over nothing….

    Kyrie’s offensive rating is 114 when LeBron plays, 108 when he doesn’t.

    In 632 minutes when Bron was on the bench last season, Kyrie’s stats per NBAWOWY:
    TS = 58.3%
    eFG = 52.1%
    USG = 41.8
    PPP = 1.18
    TOV = 9.0%
    Dime% = 44.4%

    Those are superstar offense stats. If Kyrie could defend he’d be CP3. Y’all are sitting at your keyboards wearing belts and suspenders and dreaming of drafting CP3 with that #8 pick.

    Yeah, luckily Kyrie is not coming here. Back to your regularly scheduled episode of The MeloDrama, season eight.

    Trading one 1st, Anthony and maybe KOQ is nowhere near trading 4 of our starting 5 and 3 firsts… Remember that.

    In 632 minutes when Bron was on the bench last season, Kyrie’s stats per NBAWOWY:
    TS = 58.3
    eFG = 52.1
    USG = 41.8
    PPP = 1.18
    TOV = 9.0%
    Dime = 44.4%

    And here are CP3’s stats for last season:
    TS = 60.5
    eFG = 55.5
    USG = 24.9
    PPP = 1.17
    TOV = 9.1%
    Dime = 44.3%

    Note the difference in usage: 41.8 to 24.9.

    I think Lillard is a great comparison to Kyrie. Kyrie is better but even if you think they are the same Lillard dragged a bad Portland team to the playoffs in the West two years in a row.

    Their supporting cast isn’t better than ours and we have KP and Willy so our ceiling isn’t close to being reached. They have one player, Nurkic, with any real upside everyone else is pretty much what they are going to be.

    If Lillard can drag that team to the playoffs, Kyrie can drag us. With upside potential from KP and Willy.

    I would trade the farm for Kemba walker, but I’m a unabashed UConn alum (huskies!) so I’m pretty irrational with my faith in Kemba. The guy does go hard at msg though…

    @55

    Our team has more upside than Portland but in terms of current talent, Portland is a little better. And Lillard’s numbers are comparable to Kyrie’s even without the LeBron bump.

    But anyway, it’s close on both counts. So the Blazers are a good example of what we would be. 35-42 wins, maybe a low playoff seed, locked into a few big salaries, without the ability to add much talent.

    CLE with Lebron On/Kyrie Off – 1.118 PPP, 56.4 eFG%, 59.7 TS%, 60.6 AST%

    CLE with Kyrie On/Lebron Off – 1.067 PPP, 49.8 eFG%, 54.2 TS%, 48.3 AST%

    CLE with Lebron and Kyrie On – 1.196 PPP, 57.2 eFG%, 60.1 TS%, 56.8 AST%

    Kyrie racks up personal numbers when Lebron sits, but he doesn’t run the offense very well and the ball stick in his hands.

    CLE with Lebron On/Kyrie Off – 1.118 PPP, 56.4 eFG%, 59.7 TS%, 60.6 AST%
    CLE with Kyrie On/Lebron Off – 1.067 PPP, 49.8 eFG%, 54.2 TS%, 48.3 AST%
    CLE with Lebron and Kyrie On – 1.196 PPP, 57.2 eFG%, 60.1 TS%, 56.8 AST%

    Kyrie racks up personal numbers when Lebron sits, but he doesn’t run the offense very well and the ball stick in his hands.

    In 632 minutes when Bron was on the bench last season, Kyrie’s stats per NBAWOWY:
    TS = 58.3
    eFG = 52.1
    USG = 41.8
    PPP = 1.18
    TOV = 9.0%
    Dime = 44.4%

    And here are Bron’s stats for last season without Kyrie:
    TS = 62.8
    eFG = 59.4
    USG = 34.9
    PPP = 1.12
    TOV = 6.8%
    Dime = 52.4%

    It looks to me like much of the difference in the team offense was due to Bron’s superhuman efficiency at a 34.9 usage and incredible passing and turnover rates. He’s that much better than Kyrie on offense and Kyrie had CP3-like stats including passing when Bron wasn’t on the court. That’s why Bron’s one of the 3 best NBA players in history. Also you need to take into consideration that the most of the team’s practices included Bron being on the court. How much time did they devote to the offense in practices when Bron went to the bench?

    Totally off topic, but DAE thinks that “youthful, innocent, connection” between a 20 year old Magic and 22 year old Jeannie means that they shared some private bed time sometime in the 80s?
    Oh! And on topic, Gerald Madkins “former aide of Isiah Thomas” may ring some alarms…

    As some of us keep saying, the problem with Kyrie is not offense. He’s very good on offense. The problem is defense. He’s BAD.

    Next year with Kyrie we would win around 40 games without big improvement from KP. With his expected leap in productivity we would not be stuck in 40 win purgatory.

    If he is a .150-.200 WS player next year like we hope that plus the addition of Kyrie makes us a really promising team.

    You make the Kyrie move on that assumption. If you don’t assume KP is making that leap then we need to trade him now and start over.

    As some of us keep saying, the problem with Kyrie is not offense. He’s very good on offense. The problem is defense. He’s BAD.

    He’s TERRIBLE on defense and not likely to improve. If Bron couldn’t get him to improve in this area, nobody will be able to. If he’s on your team, there are two keys IMO if you don’t have a top 3 all-time player like Bron:

    (1) Where possible have another player defend the opposing 1. I think that would possible with both Frank and Dotson. Kyrie should be much better – or, less worse if you prefer – defending SGs.

    (2) No other starter may be a complete sieve on defense (e.g., Rose and Melo). This and (1) means there’s no way we could have Kyrie/Timmy at the 1/2 positions. My hope would be that Timmy could be average guarding SFs but I have no clue. If not, I’d look to flip Timmy for a SF/PF type who rebounds, plays defense and shoots 3s. Think if we had Demarre instead of Timmy. We could have added the Toronto pick to any Kyrie trade and had a better fit in Demarre. Kyrie/Dotson/Demarre/Lance/KP would have been an interesting spread lineup and Frank off the bench until he’s ready to be a starter.

    Personally, I think KI is a hell of a player but he doesn’t fit the KP narrative. I would prefer to keep our picks and Frank. Watch us trade both.

    I’ve stopped hoping that the Knicks will ever be truly competitive, because there are teams like the Spurs and Rockets that got their asses kicked, and last year’s Spurs team was probably better than any Knicks team in my lifetime.

    If we get to watch Irving through age 28 (and then the inevitable mega-max NTC designated player contract when he’s 28), at least it’ll be interesting ISO basketball. He’s fun to watch. Just don’t expect him to be a great player relative to his peers when point guard is this stacked and important a position in today’s game.

    I don’t really care. They’ll probably trade two future firsts and WHG to get him and wonder why they’re still struggling to find the 8th seed in a weak East.

    I have been a fan of tearing it down and rebuilding properly for many years. But I have to say I think the ‘don’t trade a pick under any circumstances’ thing is being taken a bit far.

    In the end the goal is to win. eventually we’ll need stars to get there. All-star callibre players with championship experience simply don’t become available at 25 very often. Kyrie represents a chance to make an accelerating move that is 100% in line with our timeline. We could pick in the 5-10 range each year for the next three years and get nowhere close to a player that good. And for the people saying ‘then we sign a star in 2020’ – stars don’t move often and they move to win titles. Will we be one star away by 2020 from the current starting point?

    We also have to remember that we’re a bit on the clock with KP and losing him just sets us back years.

    Other teams are perfectly able to make good trades that give up picks with the right protections. I’m not saying go full Nets and give up multiple unprotected firsts. But remember how unhappy everyone here was at the thought we might draft Bridges this year? He and Robert Williams are currently 5 and 6 in the draft express mock. If we get a better prospect than Kyrie outside the top 5 it’ll be mostly luck.

    So if the cost is a protected pick and Frank or two protected picks, I’m in…

    If there’s one wild card in the Kyrie debate, it’s Perry. Who knows what he thinks about this. In his mostly boring interview with Woj, one thing that did come through is that he thinks getting good players and getting a good team together are two different things. I was happy to hear that. In the case of Kyrie, who is a very good offensive player, but one who wants to be the alpha dog; I think it could be hard to make a good team. On off numbers for Cleveland probably don’t show this effect, because Lebron still affects everyone. If Perry really is worried about good team chemistry, then he might not be as gung ho for Irving as many GMs probably are.

    Incidentally, I don’t see how Cleveland can have Kyrie on the roster on opening day after he basically told the world he doesn’t like playing with LeBron. That’s not going to fly. Which means that Cleveland isn’t going to wait until recently-signed free agents (a.k.a. Teague) are eligible to be traded in December. If Minny wants Kyrie, they’ll have to find another package and try to deal Teague later.

    Please don’t sleep on Frank. He’s good.

    Please don’t sleep on Frank Damyean. He’s good.

    Just kidding. I like both of them. I envision this being our best rotation at the 1,2 in two years:
    1: Kyrie (32 minutes), Frank (16 minutes)
    2: Dotson (32 minutes), Frank (16 minutes)

    Both Dotson and Frank IMO rate to be more than 3&D type players. Frank will have secondary ball handling skills and Damyean will be excellent shooting off screens. Those attributes will separate them from the standard 3&D player who’s very limited beyond shooting spot-up 3s. And, of course, both should be able to guard opposing 1s. Their offensive and defensive profiles make them a perfect fit on a Kyrie/KP team. I’m still not sure how KP and Willy will fit in 2 years though.

    Incidentally, I don’t see how Cleveland can have Kyrie on the roster on opening day after he basically told the world he doesn’t like playing with LeBron. That’s not going to fly. Which means that Cleveland isn’t going to wait until recently-signed free agents (a.k.a. Teague) are eligible to be traded in December. If Minny wants Kyrie, they’ll have to find another package and try to deal Teague later.

    Agree. And IF Phoenix is intent on trading Bledose, the sooner they do it the better the return because he’s got 2 years left on his contract and his trade value will be much less next summer.

    Melo + Bledsoe + KOQ > Kyrie + Frye
    And that’s better than any “win now” package any of the other 3 teams on Kyrie’s list could offer.

    PERFECT STORM BREWING. Don’t blow this Dolan/Mills/Isiah and give more than you have to. You have some leverage here. Learn from that Melo debacle in 2011. Note: Luxury tax might scare Gilbert.

    Here’s a trade which should make EVERYONE happy:

    Knicks……Kyrie, Chandler
    Cavs……….Melo, Bledsoe, KOQ (via trade exception), Randle (via trade exception)
    Phoenix….NYK 2018 (protect 1-4), Cleveland pick, Osman, Felder, Tavares, Frye

    I forgot to include Jefferson going to Phoenix in this deal if any of you are trying this on the trade machine. Also Osman’s not available for trade until August 16th so trade machine won’t let you include him. There would have to be sequential deals here. The major one would not include the trade exceptions. KOQ and Randle would go to Cavs in separate deals for protected 31-59 second-round picks. I think this should all work. I’m not sure if Cavs have a #1 pick to trade – I’ve read people saying they do but I’m not really sure since you’ve got that CBA prohibition of trading two picks in sequential years.

    I read Perry wants to hire a cap specialist. WTF? Yeah let’s wait until after we’ve overpayed for Kyrie when we could have used such a person to devise a workable better trade for Irving.

    Kyrie’s camp believes LeBron James himself leaked the news of Kyrie’s trade request. That makes the most sense to me considering that the Cavs met with Kyrie in early July and nobody knew about it until this weekend.

    Just kidding. I like both of them. I envision this being our best rotation at the 1,2 in two years:
    1: Kyrie (32 minutes), Frank (16 minutes)
    2: Dotson (32 minutes), Frank (16 minutes)

    Come on man

    If Cleveland gets Bledsoe and Melo back for just Kyrie Irving do they really need draft pick compensation? They get better and deeper. If Phoenix could potentially be involved in any Irving/Melo deal, I think the price for Kyrie would be cheaper. We’d have to give Phoenix some draft capital and the draft rights to Ognjen Jaramaz, and maybe Cleveland does us a solid and throws Cedi Osman into the deal. Bledsoe for Osman, a 2018 1st round pick, and Jaramaz is way more than PHO could have expected to receive. We get Kyrie Irving and call it a victory.

    I read Perry wants to hire a cap specialist. WTF? Yeah let’s wait until after we’ve overpayed for Kyrie when we could have used such a person to devise a workable better trade for Irving.

    In fairness to Perry, it was probably pretty unexpected (for everyone outside of the Cavs FO) that Kyrie would indicate NY as being a destination to be traded too. Unfortunately I couldn’t envision that hiring happening quick enough, but at least he is open to it. Too little to late maybe.

    Looking over the proposals and Kyrie’s numbers, I honestly would be happy if we passed this time around. Kyrie would no doubt be the best PG we have had since Fraizer (maybe a bit of hyperbole there), but I am not sure he is the right PG we want if Hornacek is going to get the run the game plan he wants (i.e. his playbook from his first two Phoenix seasons). If it we can get away with only giving up Melo and maybe a super protected pick, then you at consider it, but if there is any risk of having to send WHG or Frank just walk away.

    Just kidding. I like both of them. I envision this being our best rotation at the 1,2 in two years:
    1: Kyrie (32 minutes), Frank (16 minutes)
    2: Dotson (32 minutes), Frank (16 minutes)

    Come on man

    Not really pie-in-the-sky unless you mean Timmy’s and Courtney’s presence. Hope is Timmy could play SF and Lee would be traded for a combo SF/PF type.

    Frank rates to be at least a decent defender. He shot 60% overall on “catch and shoots”. We know he’s got at least secondary ball handling skills.

    Dotson’s draft write-ups note he’s a good on-the-ball defender. The eye test confirmed that in Summer League. He was like the 5th best college SG on “catch and shoot”. The write-ups mentioned he shoots well from off-the-ball screens and off the dribble. The eye test confirmed the screens part in Summer League. And Double D drained 48% of his 3s on 28 attempts, a few 2 ft beyond the arc.

    If Cleveland gets Bledsoe and Melo back for just Kyrie Irving do they really need draft pick compensation? They get better and deeper. If Phoenix could potentially be involved in any Irving/Melo deal, I think the price for Kyrie would be cheaper. We’d have to give Phoenix some draft capital and the draft rights to Ognjen Jaramaz, and maybe Cleveland does us a solid and throws Cedi Osman into the deal. Bledsoe for Osman, a 2018 1st round pick, and Jaramaz is way more than PHO could have expected to receive. We get Kyrie Irving and call it a victory.

    You may be right. BTW I didn’t give Cavs any draft picks in my deal. I was trying to construct a deal where Phoenix would have to bite so I’m giving them as much as possible even though less might in the end be required. In my trade(s), Phoenix would free up 10m cap next summer and receive a bevy of picks and young players. I think my trade’s a no-brainer for NYK and “win now” Cavs though luxury tax could be an issue for Gilbert.

    In fairness to Perry, it was probably pretty unexpected (for everyone outside of the Cavs FO) that Kyrie would indicate NY as being a destination to be traded too. Unfortunately I couldn’t envision that hiring happening quick enough, but at least he is open to it. Too little to late maybe.

    I didn’t mean it as a knock against Perry. It’s just odd we don’t appear to already have such a person before Perry was hired. Maybe he’s looking to replace someone.

    This is the Knicks we’re talking about Zanzibar. Anything is possible, especially if it’s negative.

    That trade works for me. I don’t know if it works for Melo, but here’s a 4 team trade that’s crazy enough it could work:

    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycnknkxt

    Phoenix gets our 2018 1st rounder top 7 protected AND Houston’s 2020 pick.

    Cleveland also gets Zhou Qi. They get much needed wing depth and they get a point guard who can play defense and fill in for Kyrie as good as anybody in the league.

    Houston grabs Melo.

    After the Knicks all of the unguaranteed players that we get from Houston, we gain a bunch of cap flexibility.

    That trade works for me. I don’t know if it works for Melo,

    I give Melo and Bron credit for speaking out during this recent election cycle and advocating for important causes. Not only would Cavs give him his best chance to play in his first NBA Finals, he would be doing it for a more friendly crowd in terms of politics. However, Melo might be a tad better fit in Houston playing with 2 elite shot creators and he might be afraid that he’d be expected on the Cavs to duplicate Kyrie’s clutch performances on offense in GSW-Cavs series two years ago.

    This is the Knicks we’re talking about Zanzibar. Anything is possible, especially if it’s negative.

    Yes. Anything negative is possible, and if it’s possible, it will happen. Dolan’s Razor.

    The only antidote to the immutable Dolan’s Razor is for KP to rescue us here and tell Dolan:
    (1) Get Kyrie
    (2) Don't trash my future by giving up Frank/Willy/Damyean or anything more than two protected picks

    People still over here fantasizing about how great it’d be to have a young Marbury back here, huh?

    Nah, Dolan’s Razor says we give up Frank in a deal for Kyrie and he ends up being a ROY candidate, and a DPOY candidate for the rest of his rookie deal. Kyrie gets injured and sits out the last year of his contract then we resign him for an Amare contract. Y’all know how this shit works by now.

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