Knicks Morning News (2017.07.22)

  • [NYDN] Knicks even being part of Kyrie Irving sweepstakes speaks volumes
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 9:55:25 PM)

    The best news of the Knicks terrible offseason is that an actual All Star has included them among the teams he’d prefer to be traded to.

  • [NYDN] Porzingis likes Twitter photo of Kyrie Irving in Knicks jersey
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 7:26:22 PM)

    New York was one of four teams Irving said he would play for.

  • [NYDN] Scott Perry, new Knicks GM, admits he’s never met James Dolan
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 3:19:26 PM)

    “I have not met with him yet, but am looking forward to that,” said Perry.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Should the Knicks explore trading for Irving?
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 12:17:45 AM)

    Should the Knicks explore a trade with the Cavaliers for Kyrie Irving?

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks in serious trade talks with Cavs to swap Melo for Irving
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 5:00:08 PM)

    Irving, 25, will earn $18.8 million this coming season, $20 million in 2018-19, and $21.3 million in 2019-20, after which he is eligible to become an unrestricted free agent.

  • [SNY Knicks] Carmelo Anthony willing to waive trade kicker to help facilitate deal to Rockets
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 1:15:45 PM)

    A clause in Anthony’s contract stipulates that his salary goes up 15 percent if he’s traded. Waiving that clause would potentially make it easier for a trade partner to match contracts.

  • [SNY Knicks] Lillard, McCollum believe Carmelo Anthony could join Blazers
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 11:15:52 AM)

    It has been reported that Carmelo Anthony no longer wants to play for the Knicks, and the Blazers believe the All-Star forward could play for them next season.

  • [SNY Knicks] Frazier ‘shocked’ by Jackson’s firing, hopes Anthony doesn’t hold grudge
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 9:44:11 AM)

    New York Knicks Hall of Famer Walt “Clyde” Frazier said he was “shocked” by Phil Jackson’s firing and hopes forward Carmelo Anthony doesn’t hold a grudge against the franchise amid his displeasure with the organization.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose reportedly considering Cavs and Lakers, not Knicks
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 8:34:11 AM)

    Former New York Knicks guard Derrick Rose is in serious talks to join the Cleveland Cavaliers on a one-year deal and also met with the Los Angeles Lakers for three hours.

  • [NYTimes] Yankees 5, Mariners 1: Aaron Judge’s Power Bursts Back Into View With a Towering Blast
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 7:25:19 AM)

    Judge, who had been mired in a slump since the All-Star break, crushed a home run that nearly left Safeco Field in the Yankees’ win.

  • [NYTimes] Kyrie Irving Reportedly Tells Cavaliers He Wants to Be Traded
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 3:21:30 AM)

    Irving, the Cavaliers’ All-Star point guard, is said to have told Dan Gilbert, the team’s owner, of his desire to change teams.

  • [NYTimes] A Way to Extend Her W.N.B.A. Career? Opening an Ice Cream Parlor
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 9:00:23 AM)

    At 30, Angel McCoughtry could tell her body needed a break from the game, so she took a season off from the W.N.B.A. and opened McCoughtry’s Ice Cream in Atlanta.

  • [NYTimes] N.B.A. Hopeful’s Scar Tells a Tale of Determination
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 10:38:52 PM)

    Josh Adams, a former Wyoming basketball star, played five months of the 2016-17 season in Russia after recovering from severe injuries sustained in a car crash.

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ new GM hasn’t even met with owner James Dolan yet
    (Saturday, July 22, 2017 12:38:19 AM)

    When James Dolan said he would continue to not be involved in the day-to-day operations of the Knicks he apparently meant it. Newly hired general manager Scott Perry said on ESPN that he and the team’s owner have yet to cross paths. “I have not met with [Dolan] yet, but I’m looking forward to that,”…

  • [NYPost] Knicks would trade one of their stars for Kyrie Irving: report
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 10:01:04 PM)

    Here’s a surprise. The Knicks would rather trade Carmelo Anthony than Kristaps Porzingis in any deal for Cavaliers All-Star point guard Kyrie Irving. According to an ESPN report Friday night, the Knicks would consider a package for the disgruntled Irving that would include Anthony and future first-round picks. A league source confirmed to The Post…

  • [NYPost] Kyrie Irving has Knicks on short list of trade spots
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 1:03:28 PM)

    When the NBA Finals ended in defeat to the Warriors after five games for the Cavaliers, Kyrie Irving spoke long and glowingly about playing with LeBron James. “He’s freaking awesome,” Irving said after Game 5. “As a student of the game, it would be a disservice to myself if I didn’t try to learn as…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo makes $8 million concession to get off Knicks
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 8:47:35 AM)

    How much does Carmelo Anthony want to play with the Rockets? Over $8 million worth — the value of his trade kicker that he is willing to waive to help a trade. That’s how much. In recent days, reports surfaced that Anthony would waive his 15 percent trade kicker, worth $8,125,785, in order to facilitate…

  • [ESPN] Knicks GM Perry: I have yet to meet Dolan
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 9:29:24 PM)

    Knicks GM Perry: I have yet to meet Dolan

  • [ESPN] Walt ‘Clyde’ Frazier ‘shocked’ when Phil Jackson let go by Knicks
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 9:05:29 AM)

    Walt ‘Clyde’ Frazier ‘shocked’ when Phil Jackson let go by Knicks

  • 155 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.22)”

    How about this deal for those of you who don’t like giving up two picks? Bron tells Gilbert he’d agree to stay for 2 more years:

    Knicks……Kyrie, Felder, Cavs 2018 pick (or first available #1 Cavs pick)
    Cavs……….Melo, Bledsoe, KOQ
    Phoenix….NYK 2018 (protect 1-4) and 2020 picks, Frye, Shump

    Here’s what our roster would look like:
    1: Kyrie, Frank, Felder
    2: Dotson, Frank, Lee, Baker
    3: Timmy, Lance
    4/5: KP, Willy, Noah

    Here’s another similar trade which works if Cavs interested in Lance and Phoenix in Tavares or Felder. Note Tavares and/or Felder could just be sent to Phoenix as part of original deal if required.

    Knicks……Kyrie, Cavs 2018 pick (or first available #1 Cavs pick), Jefferson
    Cavs……….Melo, Bledsoe, KOQ, Lance
    Phoenix….NYK 2018 (protect 1-4) and 2020 picks, Tavares, Felder, Frye, Shump

    I’m not sure if anyone has brought up this idea, but how about a Kyrie trade centered around a Rose s&t? Or is it too late since we’ve already renounced Rose’s rights? If Cleveland would accept that, it would still allow room to move Melo to Houston. Rose on a 2 year deal to start alongside LeBron sounds ok

    For those of you who don’t want to give up two 1st round picks here are two trades where we give up two 1st round picks. What?

    No S&T with Rose because we waived his Bird rights to sign Hardaway.

    For those of you who don’t want to give up two 1st round picks here are two trades where we give up two 1st round picks. What?

    We’re getting the first available Cavs 1 pick in the trades I showed.

    BTW Cavs core 9-man roster: Bron/Kevin/Bledsoe/Melo/Thompson/JR/Korver/KOQ/Lance

    So once again, even though one of our major issues last year was guard defense and getting KP the ball, we’re talking about getting another scorer who doesn’t really pass or play defense. Great.

    But then again, maybe the Earth really is flat.

    So once again, even though one of our major issues last year was guard defense and getting KP the ball, we’re talking about getting another scorer

    Kyrie had a dime% over 30% his first 3 years in the league. It dipped when Bron joined the team because he was asked to be more of a scorer while Bron took on more of the passing.

    who doesn’t really play defense.

    Frank or Dotson could guard the opposing 1 in many instances.

    Sadly we can’t S&T Rose anymore. But I’m not sure it matters – Cle wanting him for a year at $2m without giving anyone up isn’t exactly quite the same as paying him enough to match Kyrie’s salary while losing their starting pg for the privilege.

    Kyrie has ZERO leverage here – and when they trade him we’ll all see why Melo’s NTC is so bad. They can ship him to whichever small market team knows they can’t get a star in FA for a huge haul, or just keep him. You want to leave? Fine – were trading you to pheonix for Bledsoe, Jackson and a pick…

    Kyrie has ZERO leverage here – and when they trade him we’ll all see why Melo’s NTC is so bad. They can ship him to whichever small market team knows they can’t get a star in FA for a huge haul, or just keep him. You want to leave? Fine – were trading you to pheonix for Bledsoe, Jackson and a pick…

    Not really true. Nobody’s likely to give up value like Jackson for him if they think he might bolt after 2 years. By identifying 4 teams, Kyrie is saying those are teams he likely would sign with in 2 years if they trade for him.

    Here’s our cap situation if trade for Kyrie (presuming Cavs take KOQ/Lance and could dump Kuz):

    Kyrie…….19m
    Timmy….17m
    Noah……..18m (ugh)
    Lee………..12m
    KP………….5m
    Baker…….5m (ugh)
    Frank…….4m
    Willy……..2m
    Dotson
    ————————————-
    TOTAL: 82M

    why does he want to be traded?
    what his logic, playing robin to lebrons batman? ego?

    is he a franchise player who has been stuck in lebrons shadows?

    so many questions…

    @9 – ok, not zero leverage… but little enough that the cavs can likely get a lot more than we can offer for him. Two years is only one year less than the most common FA deal structure- 4 yrs with a PO for the fourth.

    And in terms of the cap – we can’t trade Melo for Kyrie straight up even if the cavs want to – which they don’t. The cavs have to add some more $. If they also take KOQ and Thomas – which, again, they won’t – they’re taking on $36m without melo’s kicker. They will need to send out at least $30m to make that legal, so the $17m in space in your scenario is probably nearer $5m, best case.

    And in terms of the cap – we can’t trade Melo for Kyrie straight up even if the cavs want to – which they don’t. The cavs have to add some more $. If they also take KOQ and Thomas – which, again, they won’t – they’re taking on $36m without melo’s kicker. They will need to send out at least $30m to make that legal, so the $17m in space in your scenario is probably nearer $5m, best case.

    Yes I’m presuming a 3-way deal involving Phoenix. I think NYK and Cavs should be ecstatic in the deal I showed in my second post. However, are 2 NYK 1sts plus Felder, Tavares, and Randle the best Phoenix could do for Bledsoe in a trade? Maybe, I’m not sure. They might prefer the gambit of Kyrie for Bledsoe and hope Kyrie signs with them in 2 years. Or there could be other options. Maybe they don’t even want to trade Bledsoe.

    Kyrie is an excellent player and may still get better, but imo he’s not good enough to give up either two 1st round picks or one 1st round pick and Frank (and Melo). Half the game is defense He’s among the worst PG defenders in the league. Plus, if we eventually put him alongside THJ it would be be comical. If we get Kyrie we have to keep Frank to be a defender alongside of him.

    It looks to me like the asking price is going to 2 picks plus players. If that’s the case we should kindly dismiss ourselves and go back to trying to move Melo elsewhere.

    The Suns seem ready to dump Tyson Chandler. He might be a logical piece for the Cavs too.

    I mean, I still want him back on the Knicks but I think I have to move on.

    Hey Kyrie, scratch NY from your list. You’ll get killed in this town with your world-is-flat nonsense.

    The timing of KI’s trade request is suspect. If he really wants to leave, the time to announce would have been pre-draft and all the FA signings, where many more teams had assets and cap flexibility. If Cavs are convinced LBJ leaving after this season, I think the deals they will seek will expedite and facilitate rebuild, ala Brian Cashman dealing Chapman and Andrew Miller for young assets. Taking Melo in a ( quixotic) pursuit of one more CHP or to convince LBJ to reup seems a poor strategy.

    Kyrie had a dime% over 30% his first 3 years in the league. It dipped when Bron joined the team because he was asked to be more of a scorer while Bron took on more of the passing.

    His AST% also fell each of his 1st 3 years in the league. The year before Lebron joined it was 31.6%; that would have put him in the mid-20s this year behind immortals like Elfrid Payton, Sergio Rodriguez, and Ish Smith. And again, he doesn’t play any defense.

    Kyrie Irving wants to leave Cleveland because LeBron James is leaving Cleveland and there is no reason to be in Cleveland if LeBron James is no longer there. That’s the peculiar position the Cavs are in; they can’t beat GSW as currently constructed and they can’t rebuild because they are capped out and traded 1st round picks. When LeBron leaves, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Iman Shumpert, and Tristan Thompson is as good as it will get and that’s not good enough to do anything except win a playoff series. Once that group deteriorates it’s back downhill for Cleveland. Kyrie is smart for wanting to leave the Cavs now.

    The one team that could beat everyone out in an offer for Kyrie Irving is Phoenix, but they won’t trade the farm knowing he will leave in two summers. They could offer Bledsoe, Tyson Chandler, Miami’s 1st round pick this year and their own first round pick. That package gives Cleveland some draft capital and makes them a better team, but Phoenix isn’t doing shit with what they would be left with. Phoenix would still be a bottom five franchise and they probably win the lottery and try to sell Irving on himself, Booker, and Marvin Bagley/Michael Porter Jr. I don’t see the angle considering Kyrie would be 26 at that point. Selling a 22 year old Kyrie on a young team is a much easier task than it is right now.

    The Clippers could offer Beverley, Sam Dekker, and the Houston 2018 1st but that’s not enough. Boston has no interest. Miami could offer Dragic and Winslow but they’d have to trade the 2020 1st (and remove protections on the 2018 I believe). Charlotte could offer MKG and Kemba, but Kyrie is definitely leaving North Carolina in two seasons. Denver could try but something tells me Mudiay, Barton, and a 2018 pick isn’t enough.

    Kyrie Irving’s most sensible landing spot is New York. We have Melo, all of our picks, and we could get a 3rd team involved if necessary.

    @19 Why not ask to be traded next summer? What’s the advantage of getting out before LeBron?

    And can’t Philadelphia make a better offer than New York as well?

    And you say Irving’s leverage is to opt out after 2 years, but a) that’s a pretty long time, and b) bird rights are a pretty good counter leverage.

    (Perhaps you should go back to obsessing over Michael Kidd-Gilchrist:)

    Kyrie Irving wants to leave Cleveland because LeBron James is leaving Cleveland and there is no reason to be in Cleveland if LeBron James is no longer there.

    That’s not true, he reportedly wanted to leave last summer after they won the championship. That’s another big, bright, red flag we should be scared of; that he’s more interested in his own numbers then team success.

    Well listen, I know people who are close to Kyrie Irving. He’s two years older than me so I know guys who played basketball in the same circuits he’s played in, and my best friend works with a close associate of his father. The word has been for a while now that he doesn’t get along with LeBron James. I don’t know how close those two are, and this is wild speculation of course, but whenever Kyrie has his moment in the sun LeBron never looks too enthused about it. I believe they have a working relationship and they would have held it together if Golden State didn’t become the monster they became.

    What it comes down to, to me, is management in Cleveland is letting the players down. They weren’t aggressive enough to shake up the roster and instead make incremental improvements to a team that got smoked in 5 games. This would be the 2nd summer in a row where Cleveland had a bad off-season. They didn’t get Paul George. They didn’t get Jimmy Butler. They’re behind in the Melo race. It’s not hard to see why a player like Kyrie wouldn’t want to give his prime years to a team like Cleveland.

    The year before Lebron joined it was 31.6%

    He averaged > 6 dimes/36 before Bron got there and he was only 19-22yo. Nobody’s claiming he’s a great passer but he’s not terrible either. He gives you elite shooting and shot creation, the latter being something this team will need post-Melo. KP gets that!

    That’s not true, he reportedly wanted to leave last summer after they won the championship. That’s another big, bright, red flag we should be scared of; that he’s more interested in his own numbers then team success.

    Or maybe he just doesn’t like playing off the ball so much. Perhaps he views himself as more of a traditional 1 guard. His BPM was actually better when he was 19-22yo and NOT playing with Bron. But hey, he’s not CP3 or Westbrook so let’s avoid him because we’ll certainly draft the next CP3 or Westbrook. Or Frank will surely be the next Giannis. Sheesh.

    I refuse to believe that Melo would want to join that Cleveland team, so I think our picks are safe 😉

    Do you actually believe that if any other top PG, CP3, Westbrook, Wall, Harden, etc., joined up with Lebron you would see there assists and AST% drop so much? And do you actually think that a team that has Kyrie dominate the ball can be a title contender? And what about his defense?!

    I do like this move from Irving though, should he get traded as expected. Takes balls to leave a team that went to the finals 3x. Guess he’s zagging with the whole super friends trend and wants to be the man, good for him.

    Melo not waving his NTC is a worry but if a trade was in place and Melo started to waver I would take Houston off the table. We should anyway, let Melo know that Houston is not happening and he can get on board with other teams or not leave and face a reduced role on KP’s team.

    Do you actually believe that if any other top PG, CP3, Westbrook, Wall, Harden, etc., joined up with Lebron you would see there assists and AST% drop so much?

    Yes Bron is one of the greatest passers in the history of the game.

    And do you actually think that a team that has Kyrie dominate the ball can be a title contender?

    I think a team that has Kyrie, KP (>.200 WS/48), and a very strong 3rd player TBD along with excellent supporting pieces could be a contender. Prime Melo was not the problem, it was Amare’s dead weight contract. Regarding that 2014 team, if you look at Kyrie as Melo and KP as Chandler we were one piece away from being a serious contender and that piece might have been possible if we didn’t have Amare’s contract. BTW check out Kyrie’s playoff stats.

    And what about his defense?!

    That could be mitigated to a degree by having Frank or Dotson guard the 1 against many teams. Remember Sefolosha guarding CP3? Is Isaiah or Lillard or Harden a good defender? So I take you think none of those could be the starting 1 on a chip team? Ainge appears not to agree.

    It’s too bad the Knicks can’t harness all of the energy people put into the posts on this blog into an effort to support the team; the way a political candidate would have us all stuffing envelopes and phone banking.

    I’m sorry but that’s a bizarre projection.

    There’s 0 indication that Kyrie + KP is the foundation of a championship core.

    Sure, if the third piece youre talking about is Lebron or Durant then yeah, I agree.

    I’m sorry but that’s a bizarre projection. There’s 0 indication that Kyrie + KP is the foundation of a championship core. Sure, if the third piece youre talking about is Lebron or Durant then yeah, I agree.

    No someone like Butler or Kawhi plus nice supporting pieces. Obviously KP would have to make a leap into Dirk territory. Kyrie’s cumulative BPM is only a bit lower tban John Stockton’s in the playoffs and he’s only 25yo. And let’s not use beating GSW (one of the 3 best all-time teams) as the standard for a chip contender. Like I said our 2012-13 team was one piece away from being a serious contender. Is Kyrie better than Melo? Yes. Is it possible for KP to be better than Chandler? Yes.

    I refuse to believe that Melo would want to join that Cleveland team, so I think our picks are safe 😉

    Haha. Remember JK47’s ominous warning of “imagine the worst move you can, because the Knicks are about to do something even dumber than that”?

    Mills may think the way to appease Melo/Dolan is to pair him with Irving.

    CLE gets: Willy, KP, Frank, O’Quinn, Thomas, and the unprotected 2018 pick.

    #dolansrazor

    I never talked about GSW man. I’m just saying that a lot of things have to go right for Kyrie and KP to be substantially better than the Melo + Chandler core.

    and come on, Kawhi is at the same level as those two and he ain’t leaving San Antonio. Butler might be a remote possibility, but the Knicks don’t have cap space (hey Noah!), specially when they eventually re-sign KP and Willy and it’s still the Knicks. Getting Melo here didn’t magically make all free agents want to come here, and getting Kyrie won’t do it too.

    your scenario is just as likely as the worst possible scenario, which is KP is not Dirk and keeps a middling efficiency while providing not much else other than scoring, and Kyrie is closer to vaseline-eating Marbury than prime Marbury.

    I’m just saying that a lot of things have to go right for Kyrie and KP to be substantially better than the Melo + Chandler core. your scenario is just as likely as the worst possible scenario, which is KP is not Dirk and keeps a middling efficiency while providing not much else other than scoring, and Kyrie is closer to vaseline-eating Marbury than prime Marbury.

    Of course things have to break your way; there’s always the element of luck. They did for GSW. Kyrie is better than Melo and is it really such a stretch to imagine KP being better than Chandler (despite what Jowles will tell you)? Maybe Frank will be that 3rd player. Or maybe Kyrie and KP are good enough that a 3rd player wants to join them.

    What’s your alternative plan? Tank for a top 4 pick which may be a bust and which means KP is probably not that good or hope that one of those 8-20 picks is Bron or KD? That’s close to a zero chance of happening.

    The Knicks do NOT have a good enough core in place yet to trade young guys and/or draft picks for the likes of Kyrie Irving. Unless, that is, you can steal him.

    He’d be fun to watch on offense, but pairing him with THJ in the backcourt would continue the Knicks tradition of horrible defense.

    So far reports are that Melo is still insisting on Houston, so maybe this will all be a moot point.

    Keep the core intact, deal Melo, play the young guys, and, who knows, maybe in a couple of years or so the Knicks will be set to sign or deal for a star player.

    Right now? yes, it’s a big stretch to see KP being better than Chandler. If hes a star, he will become one with Kyrie or without him.

    I’ve said many times I would want Kyrie, I just won’t be happy with trading multiple firsts for him, that’s it.

    Its one thing to be “lucky” like GSW was when they had Curry and Thompson. Who’s our Curry?

    My alternative plan is to continue building with the young guys and dont trade 1sts, is that so insane?

    Unless you really believe Irving is a superstar there’s no reason to trade multiple first round picks without protection for him, and what Im saying is that your assumption that he will be a superstar for New York is nothing more than wishful thinking.

    Why can’t we just show the basic patience to wait for one season after the Melo trade to see what we have moving forward?

    and I don’t know if you really hate Melo or not, but when Melo was good for the Knicks he was at the very least as good as Kyrie if not better.

    to assume Kyrie, who has inflated numbers due to playing with Lebron his entire career, is certainly better than Melo 2011-14 is, again, delusional.

    @38 and 39
    Agree completely.

    KI will be available as a free agent in 2 years. If you really think he’s that good, pursue him then.

    It’s going to be funny when Melo’s NTC saves us from trading too much for Kyrie

    Melo not going to Cleveland would not necessarily save the Knicks. There is the spectre of Noah.

    Noah and Kyrie are a salary match. The Knicks could look to dump Noah while throwing in low $ sweeteners like, you know, Frank, Willy, and the 2018 pick.

    Of course, that trade would cement LeBron leaving in a year, but Cleveland would get 3 young chips to start a rebuild with.

    But, hey, the Knicks would probably win 40 games with Kyrie!

    Primarily scoring-oriented PG who is not a great passer and plays defense as if it’s something he’d rather not be doing.

    This is clearly the kind of player the Knicks should give up all their assets to acquire.

    If the Cavs are set on trading KI now, we really need to hope that the Suns or Heat step up. They have the chips to get it done.

    the thing that makes me scared is that there’s pretty much no way the Knicks can outbid the Heat or Suns without offering Willy, Frank and / or multiple first rounders, at which point the trade becomes too expensive.

    to assume Kyrie, who has inflated numbers due to playing with Lebron his entire career, is certainly better than Melo 2011-14 is, again, delusional.

    Nonsense. The advanced stats are very clear on this. And Kyrie’s BPM stat was better when he was younger and Bron wasn’t on the team. His ftr was higher and his dimes were higher so Bron cut into those. Kyrie’s more than a spot up shooter which is probably why he wants to leave.

    and I don’t know if you really hate Melo or not, but when Melo was good for the Knicks he was at the very least as good as Kyrie if not better.

    I don’t hate prime Melo at all. In fact I gave him as an example of a player many think was overrated to show that you’re able to be a serious contender with him and Kyrie is already better than Melo. I agree that neither are gonna be the best player on the team if you’re a chip contender. If KP doesn’t make the jump, we’re pretty much screwed no matter what. If he makes the Dirk jump we could end up like NO and Davis who never gave him decent teammates. Kyrie’s good enough that you take him now. Even if KP ends up around .150 WS/48, I’d still rather have Kyrie and have a competitive team rather than be in tank mode for the next decade.

    kyrie put up a .125 ws48 at age 19… that’s quite rare… that he got to .170 as a 25yo isn’t the strangest thing in the world.. with or without lebron….

    i don’t understand how ppl think he’s overrated… nobody on the planet think he’s the main reason for the cavs success …. if anything being on the cavs has made him underrated… as far as 26 and under pg’s… there’s basically lillard and kyrie… and that’s about it…. and i know most ppl don’t like lillard either….

    do you expect your pg’s to be like curry, westbrook and cp3? because you’ll be waiting a long time to get something like that….

    The Knicks don’t need to outbid Phoenix if Phoenix would accept a total rebuild plan, which is possible considering rumors that they wanted to trade Eric Bledsoe anyway. If Cleveland gets Bledsoe and Melo, we get Kyrie, and Phoenix gets a protected 1st round pick from us plus Shumpert, Jaramaz, and Cedi Osman, I think that’s a trade that works well for all parties involved.

    Mo Williams @ 26, 1st year with Lebron, team won 66 games:
    81 games, 35 MP, .467 FG, .436 3pt, .548 efg, 3.4 rbs, 4.1 ast, .588 TS

    Kyrie @ 24 last year
    72 games, 35 MP, .473 FG, .401 3pt, .535 efg, 3.2 rbs, 5.8 ast, .580 TS

    That’s without defensive considerations, as I honestly have no idea how the 2 compare.

    Would I like to have Kyrie? Ofcourse. Am I giving up a #1 ( or 2 #!s!!!!) AND Frank AND Willy? Hell no. We have to stop paying for good players like they’re superstars or we will continue to range from suck to medicocre forever.

    i don’t understand how ppl think he’s overrated…

    Because defense is 1/2 the game and he’s probably in the bottom 5 among starting PGs in the NBA.

    Mo Williams @ 26, 1st year with Lebron, team won 66 games:
    81 games, 35 MP, .467 FG, .436 3pt, .548 efg, 3.4 rbs, 4.1 ast, .588 TS

    Kyrie @ 24 last year
    72 games, 35 MP, .473 FG, .401 3pt, .535 efg, 3.2 rbs, 5.8 ast, .580 TS

    I honestly have no idea how the 2 compare.

    Sure now look at years when Bron and Kyrie were not on the same team. And then look at years when Williams and Bron weren’t on the same team. It should be very clear after that.

    My point is that Kyrie, in his prime, playing with Lebron, has put up good, not great numbers. He’s a good player, maybe a final piece for a contender who has a great defensive core in place. He’s not a superstar who a shitty team should give all their young and cheap assets up for.

    Seriously, how many times are the Knicks going to keep doing the same thing with the same results and people are still not getting it?

    Again, I’m not arguing Kyrie is a bad player; he’s not a great player, that’s all, so he should never command the price of a great player.

    that’s all.

    Who cares if he’s a .170 ws48 guaranteed player, that’s a player who should never be traded for multiple unprotected first round picks.

    and the Davis NO comparison makes no sense at all. New Orleans has filled the team with crap veterans on terrible contracts for the entirety of Davis career.

    If KP makes the leap, the Knicks would still have Ntilikina, Willy THJ, future picks and even cap space when Noah and Lee expire or thankfully get traded away.

    New Orleans never had the young talent the Knicks have right now and the players on rookie contracts.

    If we get Kyrie for two first rounders and half of the things you assume will go well don’t, the Knicks are in the absolute worst possible position: a capped out 40 win team in the limbo with no draft picks to rebuild.

    so that’s why I’ll say it, once again: get Kyrie if the cost is at most Melo plus one pick, nothing more. Hes not worth more than that and probably never will.

    the Knicks have destroyed their future so many times paying the price of great superstars for good players. I just dont want it to happen again.

    I think nothing gets done this summer. Kyrie’s not a free agent until 2020. Cleveland is not under that much pressure to grant his request.

    So if you had the opportunity to have gotten 27yo prime Melo for 2 1st round picks (nothing more), you wouldn’t have done it? Kyrie is 25you, better than Melo and we have the potential for him to be a Knick for the next 6 or 7 years. If anything, his stats are deflated because Bron’s and his skills overlap. Pure spot-up shooters who don’t do much else benefit from playing next to Bron. Kyrie is a lot more than that.

    The Plan: keep the core and your picks.

    Trade Melo while avoiding anyone with a 3 year contract (except someone like Harkless). If you can’t get a reasonable deal for Melo, maybe he opts out at the end of the year. At worst, you clear his salary in 2 years. Play the young guys (this means tanking this year to add another young piece in next year’s draft).

    Try to trade Lee and LT, if possible, with an eye toward clearing some salary. Let OQ opt out unless you can get a pick for him. Try to clear cap space for 2019 while developing and evaluating KP, Willie, Frank, the 2018 pick, THJ, Ron, etc.

    THEN in the summer of 2019, sign Kyrie Irving, or someone else even better, to add to a team (hopefully) ready to make a serious move.

    Just accept the reality that this will not be a good team for 2 years, but it could be an improving team with lots of upside.

    I think KI has a player option in 2019.

    I believe he’s option is for 2020.

    Ok here it is:

    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7cdfbmf

    Team Banana Boat trade. No picks involved and it works out for everyone. Cleveland rolls with a starting lineup of Wade/Bron/Melo/Love/Chandler. The trade could be adjusted so that they get Robin Lopez as their center if they want to go younger there.

    Maybe the Bulls or Suns need to get persuaded with a pick.

    I really, truly am surprised that people haven’t learned after a decade of choices like the one we face for Irving: you can never have a serious contender without 2-way players. Someone as good as Irving on offense doesn’t have to be Klay Thompson; he just has to not suck. But he DOES suck. So we would have the SAME THING WE HAVE HAD FOR YEARS: a mediocre team with no potential to win a championship.

    The real irony is that probably half the posters here became fans in the 90s, when a mediocre offense was led by a top defense to within inches of a title. Remember that? Wouldn’t you like to see that again?

    Melo plus a number 1 for Kyrie ain’t gonna kill us. More than that, though, and we will be stuck in the same loop again. I would rather just let Melo expire (if he is willing to remove the trade kicker, he’s opting out). We would have a potentially great young core, all our draft picks, and room to add a great player in trade or FA.

    Source: 1 trade being discussed#Cavs get Melo/Bledsoe#Knicks get Kyrie/Chandler#Suns get Love/Frank(Draft picks also involved)— Jordan Schultz (@Schultz_Report) July 22, 2017

    If we’re taking Chandler for 2 years and Phoenix gets Kevin, I’d give nothing to Phoenix. If Cavs want to give them a pick(s) and/or Felder, that’s fine. Man I have no confidence in our front office to make a decent trade let alone actually win a trade.

    Ess-dog, kudos for coming up with a trade that makes every team worse. (According to Hollinger, that is.)

    Why can’t we just leave shit alone and patiently rebuild? Why do we have to jump like a bitch in heat every time some pumped up star says he wants to come to NYC? Haven’t the same people learned that we need to build up and accumulate our assets before we add superstars to our team so they have the foundation to succeed with like Golden State did, like Boston is doing, like any GM with half a brain would do?

    As someone stated yesterday there’s a good chance Melo will fuck the Knicks on the way in and on the way out. Buckle up this could get crazy….

    @66
    If one of the picks is the Knicks’ 2018 unprotected, they would be the big loser in that deal.

    @67
    Completely agree!

    We really have to hope that Melo will not waive the NTC to go to Cleveland.

    If LBJ doesn’t promise Melo he is staying in Cleveland the year after this one, then there is no way Melo is waiving his NTC to go there. He is not declining his player option, for any reason. That will be the most he will be paid for 1 year ever again.

    If the Knicks give up more than Melo and a 1 protected 1st I’m going to become an activist against the Dolan, Mills, MSG, and everyone else associated with the deal. There’s only so much incompetence a person can take over so many years before he has to do something other than vent on message boards.

    After wasting the entire 2000s trading away multiple draft picks and young players for one-dimensional offensive stars, the Knicks fans want to do it again!

    The sad thing is that the Knicks are probably even more now in Melo’s hand. If he refuses to negotiate with Cleveland, we would still have to negotiate with the Rockets and the potential Kyrie offer becomes stuff of nightmares… without Melo on the picture I can see the Knicks offering Willy or Frank plus Lee or something else plus a billion picks.

    Guyzzzz, let’s blow everything up and trade Ntilikina and like two unprotected first round picks for Kyrie Irving!!! It’s gonna be totes soooooo fun!!!!!

    After wasting the entire 2000s trading away multiple draft picks and young players for one-dimensional offensive stars, the Knicks fans want to do it again!

    If you needed anymore proof that Isaiah is back in charge look no further.

    This really isn’t a hard calculation. Would our current team plus Kyrie be anywhere near a contender? No. In that case, should we trade future first rounders to make it happen? No.

    Obviously there is some nuance lost here. I could entertain the idea of trading away a protected pick, but that’s it. We desperately need players who will outperform their contacts thanks to Phil and Mills’ fuckery. Rookies often do that. Kyrie Irving does not.

    We have to bring in someone with the gravitas to stand up to Dolan and company. Someone who is patient and won’t trade away future firsts willy nilly. Someone who has an eye for young talent and won’t trade the farm for hyped so-called stars.

    I think lots of you are again missing something here. Two days ago, 90% of us wanted Melo gone. Some wanted value back, others just wanted him gone.

    If Kyrie gets traded, and Melo is not involved, then the only place he’s getting dealt is Houston. that’s it. Those of you who don’t want Kyrie need to realize if we don’t have him, we’re either going to have Melo or Ryan Anderson.

    Looks like the Melocancer will save us the trouble…. It’s Houston or no trade for him. D Antoni please help us..

    While I agree that Kyrie is overrated and bad at defense he is still easily a top 10 PG and in the 2nd tier of PGs in the NBA:

    1st Tier: Harden, Paul, Westbrook, Curry
    2nd Tier: Lowry, Irving, Wall, Lillard
    3rd Tier: Hill, Conley, Rubio, Teague

    He is the youngest player by 2 years out of anyone else in the top 10-12 PGs, and the only player we have any chance of getting. Also Irving’s defense is no worse than Harden, Curry, Lillard and they are all huge assets to their teams.

    If you really think that 2 late lottery picks or a late lottery pick and Frank will bring as much value as Irving you are way too optimistic on our prospects.

    We are not getting a top 5 pick anytime soon, KP is too good and our front office is opposed to tanking. If we ride it out the best type players we get if we are lucky are the Miles Bridges and Justin Jackson’s of the world. There is no young Kwahi coming down the pipe to save us. The best chance we have is getting a young very good PG that is the perfect age to pair with KP and Willy and hoping that is enough or at least the foundation that will attact the 3rd star we need.

    Now I wouldn’t trade Willy, unless he was the only real asset we were giving up and I would insist on top 3 protections on any picks we gave out. I also would only give two picks or Frank and a pick. Not two picks and Frank.

    there def is some nuance here… i think most can agree that one protected pick + melo would work for kyrie…. while most would resent two picks + frank + melo as too much… i think ppl drawing the line at one protected pick is being a bit unreasonable….

    if kyrie was 30 or even 28 … i’d understand it completely… but he’s only 3 yrs older than kp… and making 2mm more than th2…. you could have three or even five lotto picks and never come away with a player as good as kyrie…. and two top 5 protected picks or one top 5 protected pick + frank is imo a good deal for someone like kyrie at his age…

    You get two years of team control of Kyrie. You get what, like 10 years of team control of two first round picks?

    We should be collecting assets, not giving away the few assets we have for the latest bag of magic beans.

    Knicks gonna Knick doe

    but remember jk47 those picks will all be busts no matter what like Ntilikina already is, while Kyrie is a certified superstar!

    Kyrie is a star and while not a superstar is still very good. I’m not saying that Frank and whatever pick we trade will be busts but I don’t see a star when I look at Frank and our pick won’t be super high this year 8-12 probably is that really better than Kyrie?

    Do you all really think he is bad? Where would you all put him compared to other PGs?

    Wait, has Melo stated that he won’t accept a trade to the Cavs? Lol F that guy…

    Win curve. Win curve. Win curve.

    Kyrie is a good player. He is only under team control for two seasons. He might very well say “fuck this shit”‘after two years and bounce up on out of here. In those two years, the Knicks are going to win approximately jack shit.

    That’s why you don’t give up a truckload of assets to get him. Win curve. Opportunity cost.

    Sweet Jesus why is this so hard to understand.

    Protected picks eventually become unprotected picks. I think some are missing that part of the calculation.

    Protected picks eventually become unprotected picks. I think some are missing that part of the calculation.

    I don’t want them to trade picks, but I presume the theory is that you only put protection on the pick to a logical point, in the sense that let’s say you think with Irving that you’ll logically be picking around #15, then you put Top 10 protection on the pick, so the odds are that the pick will be conveyed in 2018 and only wouldn’t if something goes horribly wrong. For the most part, I think teams have been happy to have protections on their picks versus not having protections. Stuff like the Otis Thorpe trade and the Marbury trade are outliers (and in the case of Thorpe, that pick should never have been dealt period. A first round pick, even a protected one, for late in his career Otis Thorpe? What the fuck?).

    Kyrie is good Ben R, there’s no doubt about it. Everyone would want him for free on the Knicks.

    Its all about price and asset management.

    trading Ntilikina before he even plays a single minute, trading Willy when he looked so good last season, trading multiple first round picks when you’re not a contender, this is bad asset management.

    Like I said, for one pick and Melo? Sure, get him to NY. Anything more is stupid asset management.

    Those of you who don’t want Kyrie need to realize if we don’t have him, we’re either going to have Melo or Ryan Anderson.

    I’d rather we have Melo ride it out, help our tank, and be gone next season when he opts out.

    how it is Kyrie, Melo or Anderson? for all we know Melo doesn’t even want to go to Cleveland anymore, and if Kyrie gets traded that might be the case even more.

    I don’t think there’s much disagreement.

    1. Kyrie is good.
    2. The marginal bidder for a player like Kyrie will think he is even better than that .
    3. So if we trade for him it will probably be pretty bad.
    4. So let’s hope we don’t.
    5. Obviously we would do it for Melo and an intelligently protected pick, but that is not happening.

    I understand the win curve arguments…. but getting kyrie alters the win curve….

    If you think kyrie only gets us to .500 then yeah i can see why you would think that it’s not worthwhile… but that would probably also mean that kp and wily have also stagnated…

    After a certain point you have to believe in what you got… and it’s not unreasonable to believe that kp and wily will eventually improve significantly…. if we do.. we are more like a 50 win team….

    And a 50 win team is worthwhile… esp when the core can be kept together for 5 years and your core players are all in their prime…. thats something you can take a shot with…. if its not good enough you start over like any reasonable team would….

    @94 yes that makes sense. I just get the sense that some people think a protected pick = no loss ever of that pick if it’s not used by the receiving team in the first year.

    Kyrie, KP improvement and Willy improvement will mean 19 more wins for this team?

    It’s so incredibly unlikely that I can’t believe it, sorry.

    ptmilo summarized it perfectly.

    Melo not waiving NTC for Cavs where there is a silent dysfunction right now… Kyrie probably wanted a 4 year extension… everyone else is getting deals.. plus he can’t be MVP with Lebron
    KD gave up 5-6 mil? he gets that back in endorsements due to GSW..
    players still want to maximise earnings

    @101

    Well, I mean, you better hope so, since KP is touted as a budding superstar.

    If we never have a 50 win team with KP it means he never made the leap that we needed him to make and were planning our whole franchise around. Trading for Kyrie is a calculated bet on the chance that he makes that leap.

    I’m fine with trading for Kyrie if we had a competent front office who knew how to protect picks, intelligently negotiate, and build a contender. We don’t, so I’m not for it.

    trading Kyrie for a decent price, yes it’s a good bet.

    I just have a very hard time believing this team would win 50 games next season. I do hope KP makes a substantial leap but to expect it all to happen in one year once Kyrie shows up is not realistc.

    Porzingis is 21 still, there’s plenty of time for sustained improvement.

    Willy Hernangomez played 1324 minutes last year despite being healthy all year. This year he probably plays double the minutes. That alone, and his expected improvement, is already worth 5-7 more wins to the Knicks. KP’s expected improvement on a pessimistic scale is probably worth 3 more wins and optimistically worth 7 more wins. Kyrie Irving over Derrick Rose is worth 6 more wins.

    By my math that’s worth 14 more wins pessimistically and optimistically worth 20 wins.

    Noah deal makes it hard to get Kyrie
    Kyrie picked teams with elite coaches plus home town
    Will make for fun basketball game to watch with Kyrie at point

    Well the question of whether or not we get to 50 wins with kyrie depends on if you believe kp or wily are foundational players… and i think we have to operate under that assumption….

    Its def an open question so i see where the apprehension comes from for giving up picks… but at some pt you have to have conviction…

    I don’t think it’s too far fetched to think a Kyrie/TH2/3 and D SF/KP/Willy can get 50 under normal circumstances in next year’s East. Hornacek got 48 in the loaded West with Dragic/Bledsoe/Frye/Plumlee/Tucker.

    PALACE INTRIGUE

    – CAA client Baker gets sweetheart deal
    – CAA client Melo knows Dolan won’t let Ryan freakin’ Anderson hold up any deal to Houston
    – NYK’s to get Anderson, Hartenstein, 2020 pick and maaaaybe a 2nd round scrap
    – Kyrie lobs a bomb right into all of this
    – Dolan thinks Kyrie’s a major star and wants him just like he wanted Melo originally
    – But what to do if Melo won’t OK a deal to Cleveland?
    – Will Dolan dare challenge CAA and their fading star?
    – Will he risk pissing off KP who’s watching all of this very intently and has already weighed in?
    – Will KP be able to forget Kyrie when autumn arrives and Baker is our starter?
    – Will he listen to Zeke who’s told him to give up Frank and 2 1st round picks for Kyrie?
    – Tune in tomorrow for the next episode of ALL MY KNICKERBOCKERS

    I completely agree a package including even one 1st round pick for Kyrie should in no way be a consideration. Two 1st round picks would be repeating the sins of the past where the Knicks mortgaged the future.

    Kyrie Irving has a bad left knee. He had left knee issues in 2014, broke his knee cap in 2015 which required surgery, and was plagued by tendinitis in that left knee in 2017. For a guy whose one dimensional game depends massively on his ability to explode to the basket and cut very quickly, the signs are ominous. It may be one of the reasons he’s looking to be focal point now as it will increase his earning potential earlier before his body breaks down.

    Kyrie Irving has a bad left knee. He had left knee issues in 2014, broke his knee cap in 2015 which required surgery, and was plagued by tendinitis in that left knee in 2017. For a guy whose one dimensional game depends massively on his ability to explode to the basket and cut very quickly, the signs are ominous. It may be one of the reasons he’s looking to be focal point now as it will increase his earning potential earlier before his body breaks down.

    Agreed. Good thing GSW dumped Curry when he was having all of those ankle issues….oh wait.

    Actually health plus the possibility that mercurial Kyrie might bolt after 2 years are the most worrisome parts of this trade. It’s still worth the risk to get rid of Melo and obtain Kyrie if it costs a top 4 protected pick. I’d say it’s still worth risk if a second pick in a deal were say top 10 protected. Fortune favors the bold. YMMV

    Fortune does favor the bold if they are smart.

    Mills is the one negotiating.

    Butler and Towns are apparently recruiting Kyrie hard… must feel nice to be Jeff Teague right about now lol.

    We won 32 games last year.

    Time to trade away a bunch of first rounders to get a dude with two years remaining on his contract. A weirdo who thinks the world is flat and who probably eats Vaseline.

    Win now, bitches. Always win now.

    Kyrie doesn’t leave in two years, this whole trade request is so he can avoid free agency in two years and instead get a mega max extension. He see’s wall’s and harden’s extensions and he wants one without have to stay in Cleveland post lebron.

    If Irving is the best player on your team then that’s not great but if he’s the second best player you are a very good team and if he’s third best you are a legit contender.

    This trade is done with the idea that KP is our future and will be better than Kyrie. If that is true we are nicely set up moving forward and the timing of kyrie’s extension will mean we have max cap space in 2020 to get the third piece.

    This trade would actually crystallize a plan to contend.

    Two top 3 protected picks worth it, frank and one pick worth it. Just keep willy, protect the picks, and don’t give away too much.

    Stop being such a hater 113. Kyrie adds 6 wins. Mythical 3 and D SF adds 5 wins. All of our young players get better that’s 15 wins.
    By my math that’s 58 wins.

    Oh, and don’t forget that Kyrie leaving LeBron and Love for the Knicks means his numbers will get even better.

    Butler and Towns are apparently recruiting Kyrie hard… must feel nice to be Jeff Teague right about now lol.

    Have Ron Baker pick up the phone and call Kyrie right away! Seriously it wouldn’t hurt to have KP interrupt his rigorous Janis-designed workout regimen to buzz Kyrie. Am I the only one who thinks whatever regimen Janis has designed is probably not much better than what the Shuffleboard Coordinator on one of reub’s cruises could have created?

    Fortune does favor the bold if they are smart. Mills is the one negotiating.

    On this we are are all in 100% agreement. When’s the last time this organization won a trade? It’s depressing. A perfect storm is happening where we could win big in any Cavs-NYK-Phoenix deal but somehow we’ll manage to screw it up. I mean the possibility of a top 4 protected pick, Melo, KOQ, and taking a bad 1 or 2 year contract for Kyrie is way beyond what any of us could have expected and you know Morey or Ujiri would make that happen. This is the time to show the league we’re not gonna continue to be every other team’s patsies but history will surely repeat itself just like the CAA Baker contract and Timmy signing.

    I don’t think Kyrie is great, but he’s still fairly young and the best asset we can probably get in a Melo trade (though I’m pessimistic even that’ll happen). Is Kyrie going to win is a championship? No. Is he better than Ryan Anderson for 4 years? Yes.

    Plus we have Noah and Lance Thomas on the books for $25 Mill for the length of Kyrie’s contact

    That alone, and his expected improvement, is already worth 5-7 more wins to the Knicks.

    Not really, because those minutes went to Noah and O’Quinn, who were not appreciably worse than Billy.

    It wouldn’t be the craziest thing in the world to wait and see if Porzingis becomes a superstar before mortgaging our future based on the assumption that he’ll be a superstar

    Also if we take Kyrie for picks, we’ll likely be able to flip him later for more 1st rounders.

    In Knicksland, there’s a massive gulf between being able to do a smart thing and actually doing a smart thing.

    It’s a moot point because Melo wants to go to Houston anyway. At this point I think I’d rather eat Melo’s contract for a year than take on RA unless we’re getting 3-4 first rounders back.

    Also if we take Kyrie for picks, we’ll likely be able to flip him later for more 1st rounders.

    I’m gonna trade this ham sandwich for a roast beef sandwich, then trade the roast beef sandwich for a ham sandwich

    I’m gonna trade this ham sandwich for a roast beef sandwich, then trade the roast beef sandwich for a ham sandwich

    More like we trade a ham sandwich and rotten egg salad for a roast beef sandwich, get to take a few bites out of the roast beef and then trade that for 2 ham sandwiches. But really I’d settle for swapping ham sandwiches so long as we dump the egg salad.

    You think Melo vetoes a trade to Cleveland if Eric Bledsoe is coming with him and they keep Kevin Love?

    Melo appears to think so, considering all the news coming out of his camp are that he’ll accept Houston and only Houston.

    Carmelo might and up saving us from Mills’ stupidity, who knew.

    You think Melo vetoes a trade to Cleveland if Eric Bledsoe is coming with him and they keep Kevin Love?

    Melo appears to think so, considering all the news coming out of his camp are that he’ll accept Houston and only Houston.

    If we had a nice deal for Kyrie but Melo’s blocking it when that Cavs lineup is possible and we’d have to take Anderson and 2020 pick, I would tell him we’re not trading him and he should just stay home for the next 2 years. Marbury X 2 him. That would be a situation where it would be 100% justified and everyone would support the front office. But he’s CAA so not gonna happen.

    128. Cleveland and Phoenix would never agree.

    Cleveland takes on too much money over the next few years with this deal, which assures they won’t be able to make the moves they’ll need to make and pay Lebron what he’ll be offered once he reaches free Agency. The 2020 1st round pick from Houston, if the revamped roster performs as they should, won’t be all that good. Also Anderson on a team when you already have Kevin Love doesn’t really add anything, just a high priced backup.

    Phoenix also would never want the players they would receive and top 7 protected in 2018 from us, even with Kyrie on the team, means Phoenix definitely won’t be getting that pick.

    As much as I’m not opposed to Marburying Melo if he does refuse to reintegrate himself to the team (if a trade won’t happen), you can’t do that to him if he just refuses the Cleveland trade and yet accepts returning to the Knicks and playing normally.

    Agreed Bruno. Sets a bad message. Would scare away all future big time free agents.
    As much as his style of play hasn’t allowed the Knicks to progress, Melo played his entire career the exact same way. He never forced the Knicks to trade for him or sign him again and he never gave any false pretenses about changing his style of play.

    yeah, if he refuses Cleveland and decides to stay in N.Y. unless traded to the Rockets he’s just fulfilling his part on the contract the Knicks gave him.

    Marbury was seen around the league as kind of a nutjob already and a player way past his prime. Melo is a respected dude who by all accounts have done what’s asked of him.

    There’s been news of him refusing to reintegrate back with the Knicks roster because he wants a trade, if that’s the case then by all means Marbury the hell out of him. If he shows up to play, he plays.

    Perhaps Cleveland should explore Irving + JR to Memphis for Conley and Troy Daniels. Conley is an Ohio State guy which would help ease the sting for Cavs fans. Not to mention he’s a very good all around pg. Daniels’production this past year was also about the same as JR’s. I have to imagine Memphis would be curious if only to see what Irving could do when he’s the man and perhaps JR’s most recent season was just a bad year and not necessarily the beginning of the end.

    Do we even want Kyrie?

    1) He plays no D
    2) His offensive skill is based entirely on getting his own shot
    3) He’d rather play on a crappy team than a title contender because his first priority is taking as many shots as he wants, not winning

    Guys, he’s Melo! We know how this story ends. Kyrie will make us a pretty good team, but will shoot 6-22 enough times that we’re never great. We won’t win playoff series but our dumb ownership will keep paying him and catering to him because he’s a “star.” All the intelligent fans will realize he’s a fraud who cares more about himself than winning, who puts up empty stats, and we’ll turn on him, but it’ll be too late.

    No thanks. I don’t care how talented he is. I want no part of Kyrie.

    That would be a situation where it would be 100% justified and everyone would support the front office..

    LOL

    For exercising his contractual NTC? Some of u folks don’t understand how union jobs work.

    Yeah, the only thing that Melo could do where being Marburied was justified is if he told them that he refused to be re-integrated into the team. Even there, I would understand his frustrations, but he has to agree to be re-integrated.

    Knicks get: Frye, Shumpert, Felder, Osman, Richard Jefferson, Miami’s 2018 pick from Phoenix
    Cavs get: Melo, Bledsoe, Courtney Lee
    Suns get: Kyrie

    Cleveland can’t trade Osman until mid August but otherwise I think this might be a better version of the trade I posted earlier. Cleveland would probably have their best team of the LeBron 2.0 era and the Knicks get two semi-intriguing pieces in Felder and Osman plus a pick. All of the contracts we take on are one or two years and Frye is probably tradable.

    I love how the narrative is that Kyrie Irving is now a disloyal selfish chucker because he knows LeBron is leaving town, Cleveland is a horrible city, and he wants the opportunity to have a team built to help him play to his best ability. All because he doesn’t grab 6 rebounds per 36.

    Knicks actually got Dotson to sign a team-friendly deal. Three years, only the first two guaranteed. Good for Mills/Perry. I’m just going to assume it was Perry’s doing. 😉

    Yeah, good signing by New York. It means we can’t trade him for Kyrie Irving until August 22nd but I can live with that.

    The narrative about Irving became that because the reports about him requesting a trade said it was because he wants his own team to shine, not because Cleveland is a shit city or Lebron is leaving. He has expressed interest in going to San Antonio and Minneapolis… again, I’m not American, but I think its fair to say those aren’t the most attractive places to live for a 25 year old multi millionaire. That’s why the narrative is that he’s selfish and self-centered, the reports pointed exclusively to that. He or the reports never said anything about wanting out of Cleveland specifically.

    And he’s a high volume shooter and not much else, he just happens to do so at a decent to good efficiency. It’s not only rebounds, it’s defense and his not great assist numbers too.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7dnoy2p

    Suns don’t need more than a single pick here since they are getting a serviceable young big to back up len and kevin love and not losing bledsoe. They are also getting a pretty good haul for just Tyson Chandler and filler.

    Cavs get Ryan Anderson, who does what they ask Kevin Love to do (stand in the corner and shoot threes) at an arguably better level and Tyson Chandler, who would be an amazing get for them, along with some young guys and probably a pair of second rounders coughed up collectively by the other three teams.

    Rockets get Melo and O’Quinn, which would do a lot to fortify their frontcourt and keeps CP3 happy. They also don’t lose anyone of significance and dump Ryan Anderson, so win-win for them. Probably enough to get them to cough up a first rounder and a second rounder.

    We get Irving and Jared Dudley. Dudley’s contract is for two more years at 10 million per, which is a lot easier to swallow than Melo’s. Dudley is also a likeable, team-oriented guy and can still shoot threes at a good clip, making him a serviceable stopgap for SF. We probably have to cough up at least a second rounder, and at most a protected 1st. We could probably also get Hartenstein; I didn’t include him but it should fit.

    This will never happen, obviously, but the trade machine is fun.

    A selfish guy that wants to play on a team where he would have to share a spotlight with Karl Towns, Jimmy Butler, and Andrew Wiggins? How about San Antonio with Kawhi Leonard and Gregg Popovich? Or New York with Kristaps Porzingis? Miami with Whiteside and whoever else they attract to come play ball on South Beach?

    It’s not about the spotlight; it’s about getting out of Cleveland and going to a team that would play the fast break game he wants to play. He signed his contract in 2014 and was told they were going to build around him. Now he’s on a team where he’s a glorified role player (like everyone else who has ever played with LeBron). Kevin Love is relegated to shooting 3s and grabbing rebounds. Kyrie creates his own shot and/or attacks unbalanced defenses. Kyrie Irving was also close with David Griffin who the Cavs let go while he was in the middle of bringing over Paul George and Carmelo Anthony according to sources. Why should Kyrie want to stay? LeBron is leaving, too.

    LeBron isn’t a selfish asshole for making the Cavs spend all their money, fire a coach, add players at his will, and then leave them for another team when the well dries up? Come on. Nobody calls LeBron out for his shit because he’s God’s gift to basketball, and therefore the narrative isn’t there.

    Kyrie isn’t selfish; he’s smart to want to leave Cleveland and build his brand. He’s won a championship, he’s won an Olympic gold medal as well as a FIBA MVP, an All Star Game MVP, and he’s seen by many as at worst the 2nd greatest ball handler of all time. Kyrie accomplished more as a basketball before the age of 25 than 99% of NBA players do in their entire careers. If he wants his own team it’s because he deserves it.

    And can we please stop talking about how defense is important from the point guard? Kyrie won a championship in glorious fashion as an atrocious defender. Isaiah Thomas, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Dame Lillard, Kemba Walker, Jeff Teague, Tony Parker, and Goran Dragic are all below average defenders at the point guard spot but their teams somehow manage to get by just fine. Of course it would be nice to have a George Hill, a Kyle Lowry, a John Wall, or a Chris Paul, but those guys are very hard to find.

    Wait, what about the KBers who insisted that signing Baker made it hard to sign Dotson?

    Wait, what about the KBers who insisted that signing Baker made it hard to sign Dotson?

    They were never not going to sign Dotson. They own his rights. I like that they got him to agree to the non-guaranteed third year, though.

    @146
    Maybe they heard all the criticism about handing out player options like spare change.
    🙂

    LeBron isn’t a selfish asshole

    because they took home the crown a year ago. That simple.

    And can we please stop talking about how defense is important from the point guard?

    We just gave THj a big long contract, we’re not going to be able to hide a no defense PG.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20125888/kyrie-irving-trade-request-shows-learned-lebron

    In this article, Woj says that Kyrie is concerned about life in Cleveland after LeBron leaves. He doesn’t believe the team fits his play style and he’s not going to wait around like a sucker for LeBron to decide. He even points out that Cleveland was fielding calls about Kyrie during the NBA Draft. Good for Kyrie; get out of there and come to New York. You’ll sell a lot of sneakers.

    calm down man, I was only explaining why I think the narrative became that.

    If he wants to leave Cleveland for any reason it’s fine by me, I’m more concerned about who he is as a player and what the Knicks will or will not give away to get him.

    and well, I will not answer the part about defense because frankly, I believe you’re probably trolling. There’s no way you can compare a team with incredible team defense + superstar defenders at 2-3 positions hiding Curry on weaker players with what the Knicks + Kyrie would be on defense… specially when most of the teams you mentioned actually dont do anything close to fine with their PGs bad defense.

    The Dotson deal is a good sign. I am hoping that Perry was behind it and will be handling contract negotiations from now on.

    Isaiah Thomas, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Dame Lillard, Kemba Walker, Jeff Teague, Tony Parker, and Goran Dragic

    If these guys are all below average, perhaps average isn’t quite as high as you think it is?

    Curry, for example, has played close to 3000 minutes each of the past 4 years and his team has been the #1, #2, #4, and #5 ranked defensive team those years. That goes back to before Green was a factor. There is no plausible way to say that Curry is below average on the defensive end. (Heck, he even led the league in steals two of those years).

    Irving’s teams during that time were ranked #21, #10, #18, and #19.

    I think defense is too nuanced to capture in any individual metric, but team defense is pretty easy to quantify over an 82 game season. It stands to reason that the guys that play big minutes on good defensive teams are definitely doing something right, and the guys that play big minutes on bad defensive teams are probably doing something wrong.

    I think defense is too nuanced to capture in any individual metric, but team defense is pretty easy to quantify over an 82 game season. It stands to reason that the guys that play big minutes on good defensive teams are definitely doing something right, and the guys that play big minutes on bad defensive teams are probably doing something wrong.

    This seems a bit simplistic. Isiah Thomas is a horrible defender, yet his team was a top five defense (IIRC) last year. The inverse would be KP, who 538 has as a very skilled defender who happens to play on a crap defensive team. Not saying Curry is a bad defender, but having plus defenders at other positions gives you the luxury of masking (for the most part) bad defenders. The Knicks have what, like three plus defenders on the roster (all of whom play in the front court)?

    Of course, if Ntilikina is the real deal on defense and can hit threes then he and Kyrie could be an interesting backcourt with nicely complementary skills. A man can dream.

    That would be a situation where it would be 100% justified and everyone would support the front office..

    For exercising his contractual NTC? Some of u folks don’t understand how union jobs work.

    Melo is the one who gave us Cavs and Houston as the two teams. The situation I mentioned was one where Cavs would end up having: Bron, Kevin, Melo, Bledsoe, Thompson, JR, etc and we would receive Kyrie for Melo, a pick and taking a bad contract. In the Houston deal, we would receive Anderson, Hartenstein, and a 2020 pick. In THAT scenario, NYK should say we’re not trading him to Houston, not giving him a buyout, so it’s Cavs or stay home. This guy’s got everything from this organization at every step of the way. It’s time to play hardball when there’s such a stark difference in return from Houston and Cavs deals and the Cavs would be an excellent option for Melo.

    Comments are closed.