Knicks Morning News (2017.07.21)

  • [SNY Knicks] Lillard, McCollum believe Anthony could join Blazers
    (Thursday, July 20, 2017 9:29:52 AM)

    It has been reported that Carmelo Anthony no longer wants to play for the Knicks, and the Blazers believe the All-Star forward could play for them next season.

  • [SNY Knicks] Carmelo Anthony wants to play for the Rockets, won’t talk to Knicks
    (Thursday, July 20, 2017 8:08:45 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony does not seek a return to the Knicks next season and has no interest in discussing a future with the team, reports Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN.

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose ‘in serious talks’ with the Cavs on a 1-year deal
    (Thursday, July 20, 2017 8:41:47 PM)

    Derrick Rose might just be the next ex-Knick to get a shot to chase an NBA title with LeBron James.

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose mulls deals from 3 teams and none are the Knicks
    (Thursday, July 20, 2017 6:07:03 PM)

    The viability and interest in a Derrick Rose return to the Knicks may often have been “overstated,” according to one league source, but the door never really was slammed shut by either side. There was always a “just in case” scenario. Well, figure the divorce will be finalized this weekend. After sources confirmed multiple reports…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose is Cavaliers’ desperate attempt to save offseason
    (Thursday, July 20, 2017 8:06:49 AM)

    Will this make LeBron James happy? Derrick Rose is in

  • [NYTimes] A Way to Extend Her W.N.B.A. Career? Opening an Ice Cream Parlor
    (Friday, July 21, 2017 9:00:22 AM)

    At 30, Angel McCoughtry could tell her body needed a break from the game, so she took a season off from the W.N.B.A. and opened McCoughtry’s Ice Cream in Atlanta.

  • [NYTimes] At Age 15 (or So) They Shoot, They Score, and Millions Watch
    (Thursday, July 20, 2017 3:01:09 PM)

    The highlight mixtape, a collection of flashy plays, has proliferated thanks to a group of companies devoted to spreading the word about basketball’s next big thing.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose, Cavaliers discussing contract, reports say
    (Thursday, July 20, 2017 8:34:01 PM)

    Derrick Rose may soon be an ex-Knick.

  • 277 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.21)”

    The Larkin signing reflects how dumb the Celts were to let Bradley go. They are going to miss him big time.

    Larkin will be fine as their 3rd PG. And Stevens is a top coach in this league. If he can’t get anything out of him then Larkin’s NBA career is officially over lol.

    Good luck with that Boston!

    This made me laugh for some reason, not sure why:

    “When Larkin was in elementary school, his father’s Reds teammates Tony Pérez and Pete Rose would give the younger Larkin tips on hitting a baseball during spring training.[2][3] After being told this training was “all wrong” by a Little League coach, Larkin quit baseball and decided to focus on basketball.”

    I think the idea of a kid thinking he has the edge on all the other kids in his little league team because his dad’s a professional, and having all these “secrets” from his friends, only to be told he’s “all wrong” and just quitting. Damn preppies…

    The Larkin signing reflects how dumb the Celts were to let Bradley go. They are going to miss him big time.

    I believe that either Bradley or Crowder had to go in order to make room for Hayward.

    Larkin was signed to a very small contract and he’ll be the 4th guard behind Smart and Rozier.

    I don’t see the issue, he showed some very positive signs playing at Spain, why not take a flyer on him?

    Yeah if Shane got better at shooting he’d be a fine backup, why not take a chance?

    signing shane without securing a player option would have been a disaster. plus every year he is getting older and less athletic.

    Oh, I’m not saying that the Celts are making a bad move. Larkin is a fine 3rd string PG on a 17-man roster. I just don’t think he fits the “longer” template that we’re trying to build. Jaramaz does, and since both guys are by definition non-consequential, I’d rather go with the longer, more undefined guy.

    And I am not saying that Larkin is filling the hole left by Bradley, only that there is a hole that needs to be filled. In my book, Bradley is the best on-ball defender at his position in the NBA, and his value transcends what can be accounted for statistically. He hurts you on offense somewhat, but between Hayward and Thomas, he’s a perfect fit, as he disrupts everything opposing offenses try to run from the halfcourt line to the 3-point circle and eats seconds off of the shot clock. Smart is not nearly as effective out there.

    FYI I think almost the opposite about Bradley. Bradley and PBev are probably the two most vicious ballhawks, but Bradley makes many more mistakes on defense. He overplays almost everything this tends to leave him out of position to help. Compared to CP3 it is like watching someone who has no peripheral vision. I’m not saying this makes him a bad defender or anything, but I don’t think he’s as good as he looks. It’s easier to see his excellent smothering and harder to see positioning. I can’t really support this belief.

    I agree more w PT here especially given that none of Bradley’s supposed defensive prowess shows up in the stats–either by DBPM or DRPM (he’s not even top 50 among SGs in DRPM.) I think Bradley is one of the more overrated players in the league and I’d rather have Smart

    My vote for best on ball defender in the NBA still goes to Tony Allen. Or Roberson/Sefolosha

    I know Phil treated him like shit, but at what point is melo being an insubordinate employee that should be fined?

    @9 “we’re not a position to be making fun of other teams point guards”

    Rec this

    Larkin? I’d rather pay Jaramaz and roll him out there.

    Ummmm, I think Jaramaz is a diamond in the rough. There will be a lot of growing pains but this kid has some tools but needs lots of polish. We might be stashing him in Europe, like we did with Wily, but he’s already a very good defender and it’ll be nice if we can add him to the roster next season.

    I’m probably in the minority, but I have a few contrarian opinions.

    1. Boston isn’t going to be as good as people think.

    2. Utah is going to be better than people think.

    3. The Clippers are going to be better than people think.

    4. If the Knicks trade Melo, get a solid defender at SF to replace him. and then add a decent PG (potentially by trading Lee), the Knicks are going to be LOT better than people think. (That doesn’t change my opinion of what we paid for THJ and Baker)

    I know Phil treated him like shit, but at what point is melo being an insubordinate employee that should be fined?

    That would be when MDA was the coach. 🙂

    Also, someone just Tweeted this, Boston’s depth chart:

    But Marcus Morris is clearly going to be a 4 on the Celtics, right? He was only a 3 on Detroit because they had Tobias Harris (the two were basically interchangeable). Heck, Tatum can play the 4, as well. So can Crowder.

    The trade kicker isn’t holding up the trade. Darryl Morey got taken to the cleaners in the CP3 deal and that is what is holding up the deal.

    One thing we never really received clarification on is who will be starting point guard for us. Does anybody actually believe Ron Baker will be a better point guard than Frank Ntilikina? I can hear the DSJr fans now.

    We’re still hoping to get a vet pg, either in a Melo trade or through free agency, who will likely be our starter

    The trade kicker isn’t holding up the trade. Darryl Morey got taken to the cleaners in the CP3 deal and that is what is holding up the deal.

    I wouldn’t count landing CP3 as a mistake even though he paid a significant price, but I am curious how many clear cut mistakes Morey has made?

    If I were to dig through all his transactions I could probably compile quite a list. Here are some off the top of my head.

    Anderson (a whopper).
    Chandler Parsons.
    Dwight Howard.
    Drafting Royce White (known issues).
    Ty Lawson (known issues and fit).
    Lin (contract)
    Osik (contract)
    He screwed up a few things trying to land Bosh.

    The thing I find amazing about him is that despite all his mistakes he keeps trying to land superstars and manages to find ways to unload his bad contracts and build good teams anyway. In a way, he reminds me a little of Pat Riley.

    The thought of doing a total reset and rebuilding through the draft probably makes Riley sick. He has quite a few contracts on his books right now that look pretty bad, but he keeps plowing through finding ways to make his teams better despite some overpays and mistakes.

    One thing we never really received clarification on is who will be starting point guard for us. Does anybody actually believe Ron Baker will be a better point guard than Frank Ntilikina? I can hear the DSJr fans now.

    I think they will resolve PG AFTER the Melo deal (or when it falls apart totally). First you have to know who is coming back and what kind of space you might gain before you commit to a trade or signing of a PG.

    why do people care who the point guard is? the best path for us is to tank 1 more year. Let me run point for christ’s sake.

    I’m probably in the minority, but I have a few contrarian opinions.

    1. Boston isn’t going to be as good as people think.

    2. Utah is going to be better than people think.

    3. The Clippers are going to be better than people think.

    Agree about the Jazz and Clips.

    I think Boston will be good.

    The team I think that won’t be as good as people expect is Houston, but so far they’ve dodged the big silver bullet and will still only be somewhat disappointing instead of a total train wreck.

    If I were to dig through all his transactions I could compile quite a list. Here are some.
    Anderson (a whopper).
    Chandler Parsons.
    Dwight Howard.
    Drafting Royce White (known issues).
    Ty Lawson (known issues and fit).
    Lin (contract)
    Osik (contract)
    He screwed up a few things trying to land Bosh.

    I like Morey. He’s a top-5 GM IMO.

    He took a gamble with some restricted free agents and none of them really worked and Howard came as a free agent and played reasonably well. He’s just a head case that no one wants around.

    The thing about all this moves is that none of them are franchise killers. He didn’t mortgage the future in any of them.

    That’s why I’m very skeptical in getting any real value in a trade for Melo without a 3rd team.

    I don’t even see the Parsons deal as a bad move period. They replaced him with a better, cheaper player who fit their team more in Ariza. I think I’d argue almost all of those moves as being “bad,” but definitely not letting Parsons go.

    why do people care who the point guard is? the best path for us is to tank 1 more year. Let me run point for christ’s sake.

    If this team is really bad this year, that means KP is a younger Kelly Olynyk, WH only looked good because teams didn’t know and adjust to him him yet, THJ is THJ and not a new and better version of THJ, and no one else surprised on the upside. If that’s the case we have much bigger problems than if we get a top 5 pick or something in the mid teens.

    Also, even shitty teams trying to tank at least have someone to play the point.

    I don’t even see the Parsons deal as a bad move period. They replaced him with a better, cheaper player who fit their team more in Ariza. I think I’d argue almost all of those moves as being “bad,” but definitely not letting Parsons go.

    I was talking about signing Parsons. Getting rid of him was one of those genius moves he seems to be able pull off after screwing up so badly.

    If the Knicks trade Melo, get a solid defender at SF to replace him. and then add a decent PG (potentially by trading Lee), the Knicks are going to be LOT better than people think. (That doesn’t change my opinion of what we paid for THJ and Baker)

    If that happens, you might have to change your handle to something lije “Stratomatic is on cloud nine”

    @22 agreed on all fronts

    I think Boston will be a mid 50 wins team (perhaps even 60 with how awful the east is inflating their win total) that will absolutely fall apart in the playoffs–they’re gonna miss Amir Johnson, who might’ve been their third or even second best player last year.

    The only conceivable way we could get a top 5 pick without it being a disaster is if Frank plays starting PG and isn’t ready + we get a few non serious injuries that lose us those few extra games that Minnesota didn’t this year due to Thibs playing starters Thibs minutes

    I was talking about signing Parsons. Getting rid of him was one of those genius moves he seems to be able pull off after screwing up so badly.

    They didn’t sign Parsons. They drafted him in the second round and got three years out of him for less than $3 million. They then allowed him to opt out so that they could sign Chris Bosh and then re-sign Parsons, but then Bosh changed his mind and they decided to let Parsons go and sign Trevor Ariza instead. Parsons’ whole career is a huge feather in Morey’s cap.

    Morey makes both more good moves and probably more bad moves than most GMs because he’s much more willing to gamble than they are.

    They didn’t sign Parsons. They drafted him in the second round and got three years out of him for less than $3 million. They then allowed him to opt out so that they could sign Chris Bosh and then re-sign Parsons, but then Bosh changed his mind and they decided to let Parsons go and sign Trevor Ariza instead. Parsons’ whole career is a huge feather in Morey’s cap.

    Oh yea. I was thinking of Cuban’s screw up. Thanks for clearing that up. doh!

    I don’t get why people mock Parsons so much.

    He was a 2nd rounder, has been pretty good for 5 straight seasons, then gets a contract Memphis offered him (not his fault they were desperate to contend and overpaid) and has had one season crippled by injuries in which he played 675 terrible minutes… he’s 28, so it’s not like he’s completely done.

    yeah, he’s had a nightmare year, but the dude was a legit good starter just last year.

    Oh yea. I was thinking of Cuban’s screw up. Thanks for clearing that up. doh!

    Yeah, the Parsons deal worked out terribly for Dallas. That’s totally fair.

    1. Boston isn’t going to be as good as people think.

    2. Utah is going to be better than people think.

    3. The Clippers are going to be better than people think.

    i think you need to need to set the “what people think” o/u before you drop the numbered list mic

    kyrie wants out of Cleveland.

    Watch us send two first rounders, ‘Melo, KP, and Willy.

    Watch us send two first rounders, ‘Melo, KP, and Willy.

    C’mon that’s not fair, they need to throw in JR and Shump also!

    Kyrie Irving probably ends up going to Phoenix for Eric Bledsoe, Miami’s 1st round pick, TJ Warren, and Dragan Bender.

    I feel like the Cavs’ best option here is to let Lebron go somewhere else and just keep Kyrie. Seems like Lebron is gonna go anyway next summer and probably leave you with zero return, so work with James so you get a little bit for him now and you get to keep Irving, who you will never be able to trade and get equal value. What about Draymond Green for Lebron?

    I’ve always felt Kyrie was overrated, so if they want to take one more run he’d be a smart guy to trade. You move lebron at the deadline if its not working

    So, he must want to go to a major market, or why would he want out? he doesnt’ want to go to San Antonio, for example. And, CLE must not want to take $$ past 2 years back, incase Lebron leaves. So, we must be in the ballpark here, right?

    So….Melo, Lee and a 1 for Kyrie and JR?

    Wait…wait…wait. The report’s saying he’s tired of playing with Lebron…What? You tired of going to the Finals? Or did you just want to jump ship before Lebron does? Because being the man on a losing team seems empty.

    So, he must want to go to a major market, or why would he want out?

    RUMOR has it that he “wants a bigger role.” Which on the one hand is oddly refreshing because I’m sick of this super team sh*t. On the other hand, a team with Kyrie as its best player probably won’t be very good.

    I think we need to take back more salary than just Kyrie.

    I mean, who else could be in the running here? Where might Kyrie want to go?

    @DRed

    He is basically PG Carmelo. Same concerns of stopping the ball and limited defense. Same highlight friendly scoring ability. He’s also just a bad fit with Lebron. Where are you trading Kyrie though where you’re not just getting back a lot of picks? I guess you could try to do some multi team trade where picks were routed to NY to bring back Carmelo and then also to some other team to bring in another role player. I don’t see that many teams trying to turn a corner that could use Kyrie and don’t already have a star who would overshadow Kyrie.

    I want no part of Kyrie on the Knicks. I don’t doubt they’re gonna try to get him. But he’s an incredibly high usage, ISO player who doesn’t play defense. We’re not even done running our other ISOMan out of town.

    And he’s 25 and will get the max forever.

    @22 that’s a hell of a lot of ifs lol. Yes I agree if the knicks add 2 good starters, including a decent pg, and trade Lee and melo, they can win 45 games. And if I looked like Brad Pitt I could bang Jolie and Anniston.

    Part of me BADLY wants to see us land Kyrie Irving and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist so we can reunite high school teammates around TH2, Willy Hernangomez, and Kristaps Porzingis. I’d trade a lotto protected 1st to see it happen. I know MKG isn’t actually on the trade block, but I’m sure we could entice Charlotte to deal him if they received some 1st round pick compensation.

    We could, as soon as 2019, look like Kyrie, Ntilikina, MKG, KP, and Hernangomez as a starting line-up and have a GSW-esque death line up of Kyrie, Ntilikina, TH2, MKG, and KP on the court.

    He’s a lot like Rose only with more foul shooting and better shooting (40% from 3 this year on 6 attempts per game? Not bad)… but also somehow fills the box score while not doing enough other things like defend and rebound, so doesn’t end up giving you too many wins per dollar you pay him.

    Kyrie + Channing Frye is enough for Melo in the trade machine. If they sign DWill and DRose the Cavs might be desperate enough to talk themselves into that. Also, having lebron means you can play a corpse at the PG position and probably do okay.

    i could see denver going after kyrie, thinking about a jokic/milsap/kyrie trio. they’d need a third team probably to take some of their young assets instead of cleveland. if melo had the value he had a year ago we could be that third team and this trade would make itself.

    Who says no? Charlotte also gets Miami’s 2018 1st round pick via PHO. LeBron plays point guard in a LeBron, JR Smith, Melo, Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson line-up.

    I would say “Cleveland’s GM” but that person doesn’t exist. Oh and def. Charlotte MKG for Shump and Dudley?? C’mon.

    kyrie says he prefers NY, Miami, San Antonio or Minnesota. a sentence never previously uttered.

    Of course he wants to play here. Oh man, Irving would be so popular and so shitty here.

    kyrie says he prefers NY, Miami, San Antonio or Minnesota. a sentence never previously uttered.

    Don’t do anything stupid, Steve.

    KYRIE TO NEW YORK LETS MAKE IT HAPPEN! He is the volume scorer we have been promised since Melo turned 30!

    I don’t want Kyrie, but this could be the thing to facilitate a Melo trade to Cleveland.

    You just know that Mills thinks Kyrie is a top 10 player or something silly like that.

    I wonder why Kyrie demanded a trade. In a world where everyone wants to play with king James. With Kyrie available, Melo to cavs and Knicks getting good return willl be more possible. Do it Knicks.
    I prefer 3 team trade with phx but Kyrie plus a pick is a homer un

    If the Knicks get pointz happy and gun for him and end up giving up even one first rounder, I’ll be super pissed. Which get worse if we have megamaxkyrie To pay.

    I really hope he goes to the Spurs or something.

    Didn’t Kyrie score like 25 pointzzz per game last season? Does he want to be 2006 Kobe?

    there’s about a 90% chance that Melo plus next year’s 1st has been offered already for Kyrie plus filler.

    You guys don’t want Irving?
    He is not a curry Durant or lebron but he could be OUR PG.
    We didn’t have a star pg since Frazier?
    Yes we have Ntikina and once Ntikina is ready, Kyrie is tradable than Melo.

    It’s amazing that NY is one of the four teams he wants to go to. But I think it’s more likely that he goes to San Antonio. If you were the Spurs or Cleveland, would you prefer the trades suggested above, or just trading Irving for Aldridge? I think the latter.

    ITs not even that Kyries that bad, its that he’s gonna get a lot of money.

    If its Melo, Lee, and Oquinn for Kyrie filler and somehow a first, it would be ok for now but a definite loss in 2020 when he gets maxed. There’s gotta Be some wins/dollar stat out there somewhere.

    I know “POINTZZ” is always an argument here but 25 points per game on a .580TS%/.535eFG% is nothing to sneeze at.

    Kyrie is definitely a points guy, but he’s a legit good offensive guard, and is probably a net + player. Maybe more a 15 million player than a 20 million player, but not bad and he still has upside He’d be a solid stopgap pg for the next two years, the problem with trading (say) Melo for him is we’d probably throw in a pick or two and we’d be tempted to overpay Kyrie badly 2 years from now.

    Cleveland would never do a trade with a team they have a chance at seeing in the NBA Finals. Minnesota won’t do the trade because they just signed Jeff Teague and can’t move him until December. Miami doesn’t have a 1st round pick or anybody to trade for Kyrie. We have the perfect combination of an impatient owner, all of our 1st round picks, the market to keep him past 2019 (he has a player option for the 2020 season that he will definitely opt out of), and a young team that perfectly fits Kyrie’s game (if we actually go grab MKG).

    This was almost destined to happen.

    If its Melo, Lee, and Oquinn for Kyrie filler and somehow a first, it would be ok for now but a definite loss in 2020 when he gets maxed. There’s gotta Be some wins/dollar stat out there somewhere.

    If the Knicks are able to pull off the trade above it will be the best move they have made in forever.

    If we could get Kyrie for Melo + spare parts I would do it. Kyrie’s definitely overrated but he should be easily tradeable to another team for picks/other assets.

    As Bobby Marks at ESPN points out, Kyrie doesn’t have a NTC so his “list of teams” pretty much means jack and sh*t.

    I think I’m probably in the minority here, but I would do Melo + next year’s first for Kyrie. Kyrie is young and he + KP is a solid core that should be able to attract others. Anybody else agree?

    As Bobby Marks at ESPN points out, Kyrie doesn’t have a NTC so his “list of teams” pretty much means jack and sh*t.

    Would a team not on this list trade for him knowing he doesn’t really want to be there?

    Kyrie’s fine. He’s not a bad player, but he’s also horribly overrated. And his game is going to age horribly. So he’ll fit right in here.

    That’s the miracle we were hoping for. Pack Melo already. Even if we give up one first rounder I’m good, since we get a perfectly healthy player in his prime and in a position of need.

    I think I’m probably in the minority here, but I would do Melo + next year’s first for Kyrie. Kyrie is young and he + KP is a solid core that should be able to attract others. Anybody else agree?

    PASS. Also, it would be odd for Cleveland to want ‘Melo (33) and a 19 year-old draft pick.

    Trade Melo plus spare parts for Kyrie. Then turn around and trade Kyrie for an asset haul.

    #JK47forGM

    We have a good chance at a top 3 pick next year. That may give us someone franchise changing like Doncic on a good contract.

    Dammit everywhere I left ook, TV heads on twitter are saying things like Willy/Melo/Lee/1st for Kyrie. Hell some (Lundberg lol) are advocating Frank too. I don’t know if our FO is smarter than that.

    I’m legitimately scared of this kyrie thing. Like original melo deal scared. Like good bye KP and Frank scared.

    i think kyrie is properly rated… he’s pretty damn good… altho he’s not a ‘true pg’….

    he scores efficiently.. he’s able to create offense…. he’s not hopeless on defense… and he’s 25… as far as pg’s in his peer and age group.. there’s lillard(defense), wall(scoring efficiency) and walker(defense/scoring efficiency)… and there’s a good argument that he’s significantly better than all of them….

    But yeah, if they would somehow want to do Melo for Kyrie (they won’t), then sure, do that. Or hell, if they want the amazing contract of Courtney Lee, they could trade him, too.

    But no first round picks. Period.

    Cleveland gets Courtney Lee, Melo, Lance Thomas (or KOQ)
    Knicks Kyrie, Shump, Frye, Kay Felder (or other 1.3MM filler)

    Who says no?
    We relieve them of Shump. Give them 3 wing players that could be useful against the Ws.

    Kyrie is not just empty pointzzz… he is 25 and pretty good by most advanced metrics. Am I giving up future picks and Willy? No. Am I doing Melo, any other vet and a properly protected pick – e.g. Lotto protection and then it becomes 2nds? Sure.

    Kyrie is a very good player and while he is overrated he is still quite good and any trade that we can do that doesn’t lose us KP, Frank, Willy or a top 5 pick is a good trade.

    Two trades:

    Cle: Melo, Bledsoe, O’Quinn
    NY: Iving
    Phx: Frye, Shumpert, 2018 NY 1st top 5 protected

    or we wait till august 2nd (so Jackson can be traded)

    Cle: Melo, Bledsoe, O’Quinn
    NY: Jackson, Knight
    Phx: Irving, Frye, Shumpert

    My 4 Team trades that land us MKG and Kyrie Irving are the best.

    Does Melo still want to go to Cleveland with Kyrie leaving and Lebron gone next year anyway?

    I mean Lebron, Melo, Love, and Thompson is a pretty crowded front court.

    Melo has an opt out clause and if they did my trade why wouldn’t he want to play with LeBron, Bledsoe, Love, and Thompson?

    Wow, serious drama in Cleveland. This is scary; please do not sell the farm for this guy.

    I would trade Melo + top-10 protected 1st for Kyrie.

    He’s overrated but we gotta be realistic. What is the odds of finding someone better than him with a pick higher than 11th?

    I guess it was more of a question of how good they look to Melo without Kyrie. Maybe he doesn’t care and figures if he and Lebron play together they’ll cruise to the GSW matchup. I don’t see it though.

    Sorry, I can’t keep up with all the proposed trades.

    Kyrie Irving wants to leave Cleveland because LeBron is a goner after next season and he doesn’t want to be stuck in Cleveland with Shumpert, JR, Love, and Tristan Thompson (who will definitely marry Khloe Kardashian after LeBron moves to LA).

    I don’t really care what we do with Melo as long as KP and Willy don’t bail on us. Whatever keeps them here, that’s the best thing we can do.

    I can see a situation of Melo to Kyrie with additional players to make it work. Melo and Lebron will give it a try and they can both opt out next year and make the cavs one of the worst teams again. I can see that happening.

    I’d take Kyrie, I think his Ast and Reb numbers both go up playing on a team without Lebron. Lebron just acts as the de facto point guard too often and the Cavs have a number of great defensive rebounders to take away from Kyrie’s numbers. I do worry about his dropping steal% the last few years, could indicate declining athleticism.

    Kyrie has been hanging with Melo in LA
    Noah loves Cleveland lol send him there, salaries fit

    Definitely agree with most people, yes to Kyrie if it doesn’t cost a 1st rounder 2018.

    I’d be fine even with a Melo + 2018 lottery protected, but I can’t fathom why Cleveland would ever accept that when Kyrie has no NTC.

    Out of the teams heard, weirdly we are the only ones (OK except Aldridge and SAS) that can offer something CLE and LeBron (mainly) wants…

    Shouldn’t Cleveland try to work out a LeBron to the Lakers trade right now? No way they should deal Kyrie to the Knicks unless the Knicks give up a bunch of young stuff and picks.

    I would trade Melo + top-10 protected 1st for Kyrie.

    He’s overrated but we gotta be realistic. What is the odds of finding someone better than him with a pick higher than 11th?

    That sounds about right though I doubt Cleveland would make that deal unless no lottery protection is in place- my guess is that with Kyrie the Knicks would probably make the playoffs anyway given how crappy the east is (or at least be at the tail end of the lottery in what looks to be a very top heavy draft). I’d still pass but given the general stupidity of the Knicks front office having a core of Kyrie, THJ, Frank, KP, and Willy going forward is probably about as good as you could hope for.

    Cleveland will NEVER trade LeBron. The GM that tries to do that will be publicly hanged…

    didn’t know Kyrie grew up in New Jersey
    he’s got a ring so now he’s after the NY lifestyle and adulation of Knicks fans
    Rose to Cleveland now makes sense

    @133
    Are Cleveland fans THAT stupid? Besides, if the Cavs were to trade LBJ it would be with his consent, since he has an NTC. So, anger could again be directed at LBJ.

    If Cleveland can trade Kyrie for several nice pieces, then do so. San Antonio? Miami? But trading with the Knicks as Melo as the centerpiece would be stupid, unless the Knicks include KP or something like that.

    If not, they should talk to LBJ about moving on.

    The city limits are defined by a huge poster of him. Not even Jordan in Chicago had a mega wall of himself welcoming people to the city…

    A player’s stats can get better because they are playing with Lebron. I wouldn’t be surprised if Irving’s stats are worse wherever he goes next

    this is where I don’t see Melo to Cavs, he shares same position with Lebron.. Rockets makes sense but if Kyrie comes to New York, he won’t leave now
    Dan Gilbert has also been crunching numbers in Quicken and it ain’t pretty, that’s why it is now time to trim the fat

    When Kyrie Irving says the Cavs are in a peculiar situation, I don’t think people are giving him the credit he deserves for being spot on. The Cavaliers sold the farm in order to put a competitive team around LeBron. No 1st round pick was spared, and LeBron is still going to leave next season. So then he would be stuck on a capped out team that couldn’t win an NBA Finals with the best player in the world. They can’t do a proper rebuild because they have no picks, and nobody is going to Cleveland in free agency. They also have a novice executive so who knows how good he will be?

    Kyrie is right to see the writing on the wall. If you don’t want your superstar dancing in your highlight reels and stealing all of your assists, come to New York.

    Cleveland isn’t in that bad of shape moving forward in regards to picks. They have theirs this year and owe one future 1st in 2019 and it’s top ten protected through 2020 then turns into two 2nd round picks.

    If they are bad post LeBron they lose no 1st round picks.

    It’s about to get Knicksy, ladies and gentlemen. According to sources, some within the organization would be willing to trade multiple first round picks and Carmelo Anthony to Cleveland for Kyrie Irving.

    Multiple first round picks aren’t a good idea. One first round pick is fine with me.

    the dreaded phrase “multiple first round picks” rears it’s ugly head again……..

    please no, everything has been at least kinda fine so far.

    Begley reports that KP is off the table and a trade for him would not be considered… at least some good news to go with the bad.

    I can picture Mills in a frenzy right now trying to think about what to offer for super mega star Irving….

    Knicks get: Frye, Shumpert, 2018 Miami first rounder
    Cavs get: Melo, Bledsoe
    Suns get: Kyrie

    I actually think everyone would be happy. The only hold up would be whether or not Phoenix is willing to give up a first (either their own or Miami’s) to go from Bledsoe to Kyrie. I’m inclined to think they would. Having Shumpert around for an extra year would be a drag but it definitely beats taking on Ryan Anderson.

    I’d give one top 5 protected or multiple top 20 protected. That would insulate us from the trade not working out. Either we’re great and lose two picks, worth it, or we’re not great and don’t lose two picks, so no real loss.

    The rumors are centered on offering Melo, Lee, Frank, AND a first. And that’s what guys like Simmons (who probably shares philosophy/IQ with our FO) are proposing. I’m depressed.

    if the pick is at least top 3 protected next year… that’s def worth it for kyrie… we’re not gonna be that good.. but you could do worse than a kyrie/kp/wily core…

    I’d rather tank for a top 3 player than go for Kyrie… and give up picks

    We will probably give Anthony, Willy, KOQ and 19 and 21 firsts… Right, people?

    Outside of this thread, all my friends and family say they’d “rather Kyrie than picks or Frank, and let’s get out of Melo’s deal.” I never felt more in the minority.

    Our front office is about to make another HUGE mistake.
    Think Titanic hitting the iceberg mistake….

    If the trade is Melo, Lee, Frank, and a 1st that might be worth it, as long as the pick is protected top 5.

    It really depends on how high we are on Frank. The coach and front office did get to see him in practice, maybe they’re not as impressed as they hoped. I personally think Frank has a pretty high bust potential so maybe moving him now while his value is at an all time high is okay. Better Frank than Willy.

    That said I’d do whatever I could to not move him.

    So I’m getting all kinds of texts about how great this kyrie thing is. My favorite argument is kyrie is 2nd best player in East. Which led to an argument where I’m saying giannis is 2nd best player in East.
    This is melo all over again. They’re gonna give up the farm and everybody’s gonna love it.

    For all those who are aren’t that high on Kyrie, who is a better guard under 27 in the NBA right now?

    I don’t think there is one. And don’t say Giannis because he’s not a guard.

    (Giannis is definitely better though, by a wide margin)

    If we trade Frank or Willy I’ll riot. If we trade an unprotected first I’ll be very unhappy, but won’t riot so long as it’s not next year’s first (I think we’ll be at least mediocre by 2019.)

    If we trade frank/Willy and an unprotected first I’m gonna set plastic explosives in and around Mills’ office

    Supposedly no team will give the Knicks much because Melo’s no trade clause limits the options and it would appear the Knicks have to trade him. If Kyrie insists he doesn’t want to play with Lebron (why he would say that I don’t get), then that should similarly reduce his trade value. Admittedly he’s younger and better, but the Cavs are not in the strongest position on this. No way would I give up Melo, Lee, Frank, and a first. They can have Frank or the first, but not both. I’m not sure which I’d be more upset giving up, but to include both is not very smart.

    Kyrie is great. No doubt about that. If we get him, he could easily be the best PG we had for decades. But is giving one of our young assets and multiple picks for him worth it? I can’t tell…

    @158 I do agree that we shouldn’t give up so much, but the markets are different between Kyrie and Melo. I think Kyrie’s trade value stays elevated because there can (and will) be a robust market for him. Since Melo has that stupid NTC, the market responds differently because he can limit the number of destinations. Kyrie’s situation would be more like a NTC if the eventual team was relying on Kyrie signing an extension or re-signing a deal.

    Kyrie misses 25% of the games every year and plays little to no defense. Why should we offer anything more than Melo? Who is going to offer a better package? Cleveland is win now mode, it is hard to beat adding Melo to your team.

    “For all those who are aren’t that high on Kyrie, who is a better guard under 27 in the NBA right now?”

    That’s some rurulandian cherry picking right there.

    WEre gonna trade the farm for Kyrie, win 54 games and lose in the second round to the Pacers off an air balled
    Kyrie step back, and then we’re gonna max Kyrie with an NTC until we find the next star to trade the farm for five years from now when our assets have finally recovered

    I hope it is a lightly protected future 1st and not Frank. If it is both you have to ask is a 1st round pick in the teens plus Frank likely better than Kyrie.

    I personally don’t see future all-star with Frank, I see (hopefully) a rich mans Patrick Beverley and a solid starter for a long time. As for the pick, as long as it’s not in the top 5 or 10 the likelyhood of it being a true difference maker is slim.

    I say get Kyrie and build around KP now. He is the best young guard in the NBA, by a pretty wide margin.

    We have to keep the young boys together. Frank, KP, Willy, TH2, and Kyrie Irving. Then we get MKG out of Charlotte and we’ll win the 2021 NBA championship.

    Whatever happened to Mills saying we want players under 25? I want him to stick to that.

    @162 i could have cherry picked his age which is 24 but you have to look at players 3-4 years his senior and in the height of their prime to find a better guard. In five years Kyrie is probably the best guard in the NBA.

    For all those who are aren’t that high on Kyrie, who is a better guard under 27 in the NBA right now?

    John Wall, Lillard. And I (and perhaps I am alone in this) would prefer to have Rubio, too.

    Maybe I give you Wall, but no way on Lillard. He is a truly terrible defensive player and not any better offensively or at passing than Kyrie.

    I like Wall’s game better than Kyrie but he is two years older and not nearly the scorer Kyrie is. I’d probably call them close to equal.

    In five years Kyrie is probably the best guard in the NBA.

    In 5 years Kyrie will be done. He does not assist or rebound enough, and his athleticism will be gone, he does not defend, at most he would get to be a spot up shooter.

    Maybe I give you Wall, but no way on Lillard. He is a truly terrible defensive player and not any better offensively or at passing than Kyrie.

    Lillard’s numbers are almost identical to Kyrie’s except he rebounds a bit better. He is two years older, actually, that’s true.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1=irvinky01&y1=2017&player_id2_hint=Damian+Lillard&player_id2_select=Damian+Lillard&y2=2017&player_id2=lillada01&idx=players

    It sure feels like something incredibly stupid is about to happen. The sad thing is this is the perfect opportunity to swing them Melo and get assets from a third team who gets Kyrie, but that would be far too smart.

    Kyrie is pretty good, but he ain’t gonna be the piece that puts our 31 win team over the top. Trading anything other than a substantially protected future first for him would be a mistake.

    in 5 years Kyrie will be an offensive black hole (after he inevitably loses his athleticism to the recurrent injuries) and an even more terrible defender.

    If we trade Frank or Willy and a pick I will lose my mind… so obviously were probably offering both plus 2 unprotected first rounder.

    hey “everytime you make a trade and end up with the best player in the trade it’s worth it” right Bill Simmons?

    I agree & repeat :
    Our front office is about to make another HUGE mistake
    Think Titanic hitting the iceberg mistake

    This is going to be Starbury Redux except Starbury could run basic offensive plays when he wanted to. The only thing Kyrie knows how to do is score a lot, admittedly efficiently, but does nothing else positive on the court.

    I’m taking Kyrie Irving and banking that in 3 years when he and TH2 are 28, Frank is 22, MKG is 27, Willy Hernangomez is 26 and KP is 25 the Knicks are the best team in the Eastern Conference.

    This is a no-brainer to me. I just tried this in the Trade Machine and it worked:
    Knicks……Kyrie, Felder
    Cavs……….Melo, Bledsoe, KOQ
    Phoenix…..Ntilikina, NYK 2018 pick, Frye, Shump

    Here’s what our roster would look like:
    1: Kyrie, Felder
    2: Dotson, Lee, Baker
    3: Timmy, Lance
    4/5: KP, Willy, Noah

    We’d be in excellent shape cap-wise and have no really bad contract except Noah. We’d have a key player at every position who is less than or equal to 25yo. We’d have diverse great shot creation:
    – Kyrie dishing to 40% from 3 in Lee, Dotson, Lance
    – Timmy/Dotson/KP shooting well off screens and cutting
    – Kyrie/KP PnR and PnPop
    – WHG post-ups
    – KP post-ups?

    Let’s stop all of this tank talk and do this trade. BTW I’d rather include Frank in any deal than Dotson or Willy.

    I actually don’t even really like Kyrie, but he is one of the top 10 players 25 or under in the NBA and one of the top 10 guards of any age. I think he will age fine, he is an outstanding shooter and has been pretty healthy. KP is our star, if we can get a great player at a similar age and start building up now you do it. You don’t keep gambling with the draft and end up like New Orleans with a star and a bad team.

    The best way to build a championship contender is build a young team that wins 50+games every year and then attract a superstar in their prime to put you over the edge.

    The likelyhood we’ll draft a player better than Kyrie sometime over the next 3 years is very small.

    As for the Lillard comparison, I live in Portland and watch a lot of Blazers basketball, Lillard is one of the worst defenders in the NBA, offensively they are close but defensively they are far apart.

    I think he will age fine, he is an outstanding shooter and has been pretty healthy.

    He is not pretty healthy. He gets injured quite a lot. Nothing serious, but lots of small injuries.

    You don’t keep gambling with the draft and end up like New Orleans with a star and a bad team.

    How are they doing with Cousins? You still need a team, and you are banking on TH2, Frank (if not traded) and baker to round a team. The team would be capped, specially after KP’s extension.

    As for the Lillard comparison, I live in Portland and watch a lot of Blazors basketball, Lillard is one of the worst defenders in the NBA, offensively they are close but defensively they are far apart.

    Well, Kyrie is a pretty abismal defender himself.

    Zanzibar
    July 21, 2017 at 7:40 pm
    This is a no-brainer to me. I just tried this in the Trade Machine and it worked:
    Knicks……Kyrie, Felder
    Cavs……….Melo, Bledsoe, KOQ
    Phoenix…..Ntilikina, NYK 2018 pick, Frye, Shump

    Fuck no, we shouldn’t be trading any future firsts but definitely not next year’s. 2018 is supposed to be a loaded draft with potentially 4 franchise players.

    Ben R
    July 21, 2017 at 7:40 pm
    I actually don’t even really like Kyrie, but he is one of the top 10 players 25 or under in the NBA

    If he is than he’s barely. Off the top of my head: Kawhi, KAT, Anthony Davis, Giannis, Gobert, and Jokic. And that doesn’t include any of this year’s potentially loaded draft class.

    I was using New Orleans as the cautionary tale. They failed to put other young players around Davis and then had to get Cousins to try and do something. I don’t want to end up like them.

    The team is KP, Willy, THJ and Irving, four legitimate NBA starters, two of which are superstars or potential ones and all 25 or under. We would need a SF but in the mean time Lance or Dotson (if he’s good) or Lee (if he’s still around) can step in there.

    It completely changes the outlook of our team from one that is stuck at 30-40 wins until KP takes a huge step to a team that is a real player in the Eastern Conference in the next year or two.

    Please do not trade frank. I’d be okay with melo and next years first top ten protected as someone suggested before. Trading frank before we even know what we have would be so stupid.

    @176
    Is that you Reub?

    Kawhi is 26 but that’s not important. Kyrie might be #8 or 9 or 10 or even 12 or 13 on the list of the best players his age or younger but no one above him is even remotely available, and Frank or whoever we could get with our late lottery pick next year isn’t likely to be on that list either.

    KP will have have to steal the ball from Kyrie to get involved on offense. Irving does not like to give up the rock very often. That being said, I do agree the likelihood of drafting someone as good as him in the next three years may be slim.

    All these three team trade ideas having the knicks helping facilitate a trade for kyrie to another team are not going to happen. This FO does not operate that way. They want kyrie. Their not going to help another team acquire kyrie.

    Guys, lets take this in steps:
    -As of this AM, most of us were ready to get rid of Melo for just about anything
    -Now, we have a legit chance of trading him, and getting something back; whether it by Kyrie, or return from a 3rd team
    -seems we are keeping KP
    -So, the bad news is, we could lose Frank and / or first.

    This backfired if one of these other teams can offer more:
    SA: Could offer Aldridge. Would CLE want him more than Melo?
    MIA: Can really only offer pics, but at least they could offer dragic back so Cle has a PG
    MIN: I don’t see what players they can deal straight up

    Coming in as the highest bidder for Kyrie Irving would seriously be some Isiah Thomas shit. I guess we’ll see if Scott Perry’s presence means anything or if the remaining collection of stupids in our FO have learned anything from the last 20 years.

    In all seriousness you don’t think Kyrie Irving, Frank Ntilikina, KP, Willy, MKG (I know I need to let that go, but still), and Tim Hardaway Jr would win a lot of games in 2020? Especially if KP truly is the two way cornerstone he’s been projected to be ever since he dunked on LaMarcus Aldridge? That’s the sort of aggressive mindset you need to have if you’re giving up Future 1st round picks

    3 years ago – via New York Daily News

    Kyrie Irving is close to firing his agent, Jeff Wechsler, according to a league source. We hear part of the reason Irving is seeking a new rep is that he intends on leaving the Cavs, while Wechsler wants him to stay. As we reported at the start of the season, Irving wants to come back home to the New York area — he’s from West Orange, N.J. — and play for the Knicks. Lord knows they could use an All-Star talent at point guard, and Irving will be headed for his first starting assignment in an All-Star game in a couple of weeks.

    If he had fired his agent and hired CAA this deal would already be done.

    Kyrie averaged 6 assists as the Cavs secondary playmaker. The most selfish player in the league is Russell Westbrook and he averaged double digit assists. I think Kyrie could get more assists in a system designed for him to make plays for others.

    Kawhi is 26 but that’s not important. Kyrie might be #8 or 9 or 10 or even 12 or 13 on the list of the best players his age or younger but no one above him is even remotely available, and Frank or whoever we could get with our late lottery pick next year isn’t likely to be on that list either.

    Kawhi turned 26 3 weeks ago; he was 25 for the entire season.

    The problem with comparing him to only his age group is that he’s playing against the entire NBA. And if he’s only, at best, the 7th best player 25 or under, what are the chances he can improve that ranking? I don’t see anyway, barring injury, that he moves up that list; and with every draft class he’ll only ever move down.

    And again, he can’t run an offense, he doesn’t play defense, and he can’t stay healthy.

    Given that Mills has already screwed up Phil’s very good cap position, I get the feeling he’s going to screw up our draft position next.

    A backcourt of Kyrie and THJ would turn me and Sky Low Low (look it up if you aren’t old enough) into Curry and Thompson. Kyrie cannot defend ANYONE. If we do a deal, we absolutely have to keep Frank for defensive purposes to be alongside Kyrie and there’s no freaking way I’d give up 2 st round picks no matter how talented an offensive player he is. He doesn’t defend AT ALL.

    I like building around the draft and not making rash win now moves but Irving is a top ten PG, our position of need, and is young and fits KP’s timeline.

    After Paul, Westbrook, Curry and Harden (if you consider him a PG) who is a better PG in the NBA.

    Maybe Lowry or Wall or Lillard, maybe. It doesn’t matter though because they aren’t potentially available.

    This is nothing like the Isiah moves because we are in a differnt place than the Knicks teams he traded future 1sts from, he didn’t protect them and Irving is younger and better than Marbury and actually good at basketball unlike Curry.

    Note to most of you above- issue is not Melo for Kyrie- it’s likely adding Frank and picks to the deal

    The max assets I would give up are next years pick top 5 protected or two lottery protected future 1sts or Frank and a lottery protected 1st or maybe Willy, but no picks. I would really try to keep Frank and Willy though.

    but Irving is a top ten PG

    This is very likely untrue. He was probably like the 15th best PG in the NBA last season, with the caveats that he is still relatively young, and he was playing on a team with an unusual mix of players. He’s a terrific offensive player but he’s also useless on defense, and that eats up a good chunk of his productivity.

    Here’s a list of all guards since 1979 who’ve put up a cumulative bpm >2.0 in 10000+ minutes by the age of 25. I don’t mind trading Frank and 2018 pick to get THAT production at a position where the future landscape is barren. Most #8 picks are busts or mediocre players. My fear is Mills is gonna do something stupid like throw in Dotson in the deal when Damyean is probably gonna be better than Timmy or Frank.

    Note to most of you above- issue is not Melo for Kyrie- it’s likely adding Frank and picks to the deal

    Right! That’s what makes it idiotic.

    Kyrie and anyone other than Frank in the backcourt would be a disaster on defense. We cannot give up Frank if he’s the kind of defender we’ve been lead to believe.

    The next option may be giving up two 1st round picks, which IMO is too much for a PG that plays ZERO defense even if he is an elite player on offense.

    Kyrie would be an excellent short term solution to our PG problem. For all his serious flaws he’s still a good player, and he’s a big upgrade over Ron Baker. The issue that worries me is our front office probably looks at him like he’s a superstar.

    Nobody hates the idea of Kyrie Irving, everyone should hate the idea of giving up young talent and picks again for a dude who we have no idea if he’ll ever be the #1 superstar we need.

    His stats are VERY marbury-esque (Irving is a slightly better shooter efficiency wise and Marbury was a better passer), he has been injury prone in his career, can’t or won’t play defense and he has been playing with the best passer and player in the entire NBA, so we have no idea how he would fare sans Lebron.

    no, please no.

    and how come Dotson is this super prospect now? the kid dropped to the 2nd round, he is undersized, can shoot threes and might have participated in a gang rape. That’s pretry much all we know from him.

    There’s a bigger chance he never plays in the NBA than he is the star y’all seem so sure he’ll be.

    The thing is we’re banking on KP to be our #1 guy and Kyrie Irving already proved at 24 that he could be the 2nd best player on a championship team. If you get Kyrie Irving on a team with a superstar KP and an All-Star Willy Hernangomez then I think it makes sense to pull the trigger. I don’t think we should be trading anybody that is currently on our roster but I would consider moving the 2018 first and giving swap rights on the 2019 1st.

    Melo, O’Quinn and Kuz and a top-15 protected pick for 2019 plus a future second rounder if they really want it for Kyrie, Shumpert, and Felder.

    Cav’s get Melo, a spot up shooter and a decently skilled big that gobbles up rebounds and tries on defense. They also get two picks, which while not fantastic, should help them rebuild in the post-Lebron era by letting them get more young, cost-controlled players through the draft.

    We get Irving and Felder, which along with Ntilikina should instantly restock our point guard cupboard, and take Shumpert off their hands. Shumpert does suck, but his contract is much smaller than Melo’s and much less of a concern.

    You’re all being delusional…

    The Knicks are not going to have a top 5 pick next year with or without Melo. They’re going to be bad, but not that bad.

    We shouldn’t trade Frank and a future first, but I’d definitely be comfortable keeping Frank and giving them next year’s first. Kyrie would work very well with KP on the pick and roll with dishing to overpaid THJ. There would be more wins than last year without a doubt and the team would probably look a Hell of a lot more fun.

    I think I’d give up a single first round pick and any player on the roster not named KP and Ntilikina to get Kyrie. That includes Willy. When KP is really good he’s going to be playing the 5, so making Willy untouchable doesn’t make much sense — although keeping him to make KP happy is definitely a consideration.

    At the end of the day I don’t think Kyrie is a difference maker on the level of the top 10-15 players in the NBA. He’s not as good as Curry, Klay, Draymond, or Durant. He’s not as good as Kawhi. He’s not close to as good as Lebron. He’s not as good as Harden. He’s not even as good as Westbrook.

    he’s a second or 3rd tier star – a good (not great) offensive player and a minus defensive player. I really hope we learned our lesson with the Melo trade. Mortgaging the future is fine is you’re getting one of those guys I listed above. Kyrie is not that guy. The Cavs were a net -8 per 100 poss when Kyrie was on the floor and Lebron was off. This is not a guy you trade multiple 1st rounders or your recent 8th pick, and certainly not Kristaps.

    Everyone here has PTSD from Isiah Thomas and the Bargnani trade. Trading future 1sts isn’t in itself a bad move. It’s a bad move when the picks aren’t protected or if the move isn’t forward thinking.

    Are we really saying that Irving isn’t worth the #17 and #24 pick in the 2018 and 2020 drafts. I’m not saying give up lottery picks but protected 1sts are one of the most overvalued assets teams can trade. The actual worth of the asset is much lower than the value 95% of the time.

    If Irving sucks and we aren’t a better team then we keep the picks antway. Where’s the downside?

    I think I’d give up a single first round pick and any player on the roster not named KP and Ntilikina to get Kyrie. That includes Willy. When KP is really good he’s going to be playing the 5, so making Willy untouchable doesn’t make much sense — although keeping him to make KP happy is definitely a consideration.

    I think I’d rather keep Willy until he becomes the player he’s going to become and then move him. As much as we all seem to think KP is our future C, IMHO he’s nowhere near ready yet. So I’d rather keep WH for at least another year or two and sell high if we have to.

    I’m OK with giving up a single 1st round pick

    How is kyrie better than marbury? They’re the same player except Marbury was a better player. Though Kyrie isn’t insane so there’s that.

    and how come Dotson is this super prospect now? the kid dropped to the 2nd round, he is undersized, can shoot threes and might have participated in a gang rape. That’s pretry much all we know from him.

    I’ve read everything written about the guy. I’m only speaking about his basketball ability not all of the other stuff. That doesn’t mean it’s not important only that he’s now on the team and the discussion is no longer whether to select him. He probably dropped to the 2nd round because of all of that. I could find no major weakness in all I’ve read. He appears to be an elite shooter, able to spot up, shoot off screens and shoot off the dribble. That shooting off screens part is very important and makes him more than a 3&D guy. And he’s able to drain shots even if defender is in his grill, another quality which separates him from most 3&D guys. He’s showing signs of being an above average rebounder, decent in transition, a decent defender, and a decent passer. It’s difficult to say how he finishes because he didn’t attack the rim that much and settled for jumpers. But if you shoot like him, maybe that’s not a bad thing. He’s not gonna be a guy who initiates the offense with the ball like Harden and he is 23yo.

    No, we don’t have PTSD, we just don’t want to trade 1st rounders for Stephon number 2.

    Its a stupid move, that stupid franchises would do.

    I’m not even a Kyrie Irving fan and definitely think he is a 2nd or 3rd tier star. But to hear people talk about him you’d think he was a scrub.

    As for the Marbury comparisons, I think Irving’s been better thus far in his career, is younger than Marbury was, hasn’t been on perpetually losing teams and isn’t known as a locker room cancer like Marbury before he came.

    Also Marbury didn’t fit the timeline of the Knicks team he joined Kyrie does fit our timeline. That’s probably the biggest difference.

    I like building around the draft and not making rash win now moves but Irving is a top ten PG, our position of need, and is young and fits KP’s timeline.

    Let’s say he is a top 10 PG. What exactly does that mean? People talk about top 10, top 20 whatever and sort of imply that there’s a gradual decrease in talent. But that isn’t necessarily the case. There could be very clear tiers with great gulfs of talent in between.

    Here’s a thought experiment. Think of the best PGs in the league (and include Harden since he’s a guard and was effectively Houston’s PG last year) and replace them with Kyrie. How much better or worse are those teams? Do Houston or OKC even make the playoffs? How good are Toronto or Washington?

    The Cavs were a net -8 per 100 poss when Kyrie was on the floor and Lebron was off.

    Gee the team’s a lot worse when one of the 3 greatest players in the history of the game is not on the court. Odd indeed. When LBJ off and Kyrie on, -8 per 100. When LBJ off and Kyrie off, -12 per 100.

    I think I’d give up a single first round pick and any player on the roster not named KP and Ntilikina to get Kyrie. That includes Willy.

    Willy played well his rookie year. When you look at the bust potential of draft picks, you don’t trade a guy like that and keep a complete cipher like Ntilikina. This is the blind spot that members of Team Optimism have – they let their heart instead of their mind guide them. Ntilikina is young Giannis to them. That 2018 pick is gonna be Kawhi. Cavs won the chip because of Bron and Kyrie’s clutch shooting.

    Melo, Lee or KOQ, and the 2019 1st round pick is a good offer. They should keep the 2018 pick because they will likely not be as good next year as 2019.

    How is kyrie better than marbury? They’re the same player except Marbury was a better player.

    Marbury age 24 TS%: .519
    Kyrie age 24 TS%: .580

    Kyrie is (or at least was last year) a legitimately good offensive player. Marbury was a chucker.

    I’m not that concerned about a Kyrie trade. My guess is that he goes somewhere else.

    I’m not a big Frank fan, so losing him in a deal for a top-10 PG (there’s really no disputing this) on a crazy reasonable deal for the next 3 years (no disputing that either) is not a big deal to me. he’s a better passer than people here are saying (he had an assist rate of greater than 30% before LeBron came aboard) and is certainly capable of playing decent defense. Seriously, how many top PGs are plus defenders? Not Harden. Not Curry. Not Thomas. Not Lillard. Not Kemba. Not Dragic. Etc.) And the way the game is played today makes PG defense in and of itself less of an issue. All I know is that in 52 playoff games in the last 3 seasons, he played to a WS48 0f .188 and shot consistently at a 57% TS against the best defensive teams in the NBA.

    I don’t want to give up too much to get him, but damn, he’s not a vaseline eater or a high-usage low-efficiency chucker. He’s really f’n’ good!

    Right now we are staring basketball purgatory in the face. We are too good to get a high pick in any of the next couple drafts but we have an unbalanced roster, are capped out and unless KP takes a big step forward we are probably looking at 30-45 wins over the next 3 years. Even if he does we’re still probably not winning more than 50 games.

    Irving changes all of that. He balances our roster, adds tens wins to our upside and makes us a potential 2nd round playoff team sooner rather than later. It also makes us exciting and could completely change the narrative around Knicks basketball which might make us attractive to a legitimate 1st tier star to come in 2020 when all our terrible contracts get off the books.

    Worst case he’s still more of a tradable asset than anything we’re giving up.

    @ 198

    Here’s that same list but over the course of a player’s 1st 6 seasons. Pretty different list.

    @ 210

    We didn’t know that Marbury was insane either until he got here.

    @214

    Is there any reason to believe that Kyrie wouldn’t have been on perpetually losing teams if Lebron hadn’t chosen to join him?

    like I said, I’m fine with Irving per se.

    just dont trade the entire house to get him.

    offer Melo, 2019 at most or 2018 too with heavy protections and that’s it, if Cleveland gets better offers so be it.

    we’ve seen what trading young players + picks can do to a franchise many, many times before.

    Kyrie “I believe the earth is flat” Irving is sane?

    he just doesn’t eat Vaseline, yet.

    Maybe…Knicks get: Kyrie, Frye's dealSuns get: Ntilinka, Shump's dealCavs get: Melo, Bledsoe, NYK's 2018/20 1sts, Phx protected 1st— Bill Simmons (@BillSimmons) July 21, 2017

    He’s also a sane person.

    My bad, just remembered that Kyrie Irving think the earth is flat.

    Vaseline eating doesn’t seem so bad.

    Theres not a NTC in Kyrie’s contract, he’s not up for an extension for a little while. Kyrie has no leverage to name his destination. The Knicks will be bidding with everyone else.

    KP would obviously be off the table but the Knicks have premium assets in the form of Willy, Frank, and 1sts. Melo hasn’t shown much trade value and again, this is the whole league bidding- even sending Melo out they need to include two of those premium assets to bring back Kyrie. They’re not getting Irving for vet contracts like KOQ, Lee, Melo and some lotto protected 1st.

    Kyrie scores points playing off LeBron but is he really going to enhance the development of KP or be part of the next great Knicks team? Will his efficiency take a hit when he becomes the man? Will he start playing defense? Is he going to start playing 75 games a year?

    Simmons is a complete asshole. Nobody could be dumb enough to make that deal.

    Or could they?

    Simmons thinks Kyrie is a superstar. He spent all year wondering why a team with two superstars wasn’t winning more games without managing to put 2 and 2 together.

    Typical Simmons.

    He’d probably argue that the Knicks should trade Ntilikina, Willy , 2018 and 2020 because “getting the best player in the trade”

    Let’s rewind:
    The Knicks overpaid for THJR
    The Knicks overpaid for Ron Baker
    Coming soon, the Knicks will overpay for for Kyrie

    This is fucking amaZing. Turning this into a two team trade race is a gift from the gods…all is not lost, yet.

    Source: #Knicks and #Cavs in serious talks centered around Carmelo Anthony and Kyrie Irving+possible 3rd team (maybe #Suns). https://t.co/wb5uB85SUZ— Jordan Schultz (@Schultz_Report) July 21, 2017

    just dont trade the entire house to get him.

    This.

    Melo, Amar’e, Curry, Marbury. The list goes on. Were they pretty good? Sure. Did I want them on the team? Yes, but for the right price. They werr not foundational players and shouldn’t have been purchased or paid like one.

    What if Carmelo had come as an FA and played with Gallinari and all those guys? His whole NYK career would be viewed through a different lens.

    What if he’d been S&T’d to CHI instead of Maxed with an NTC?

    Melo the player is pretty good despite what some say. Very talented. A difference maker in the right context. I’ll always believe that but NBA teams need to properly value assets.

    Kyrie for Carmelo is perfect. I couldn’t think of a better mentor for Frank. He’d be the best PG since Derek Harper. But you can’t set back the organization going forward.

    In addition to Melo they can have Lee or O’Quinn. Maybe we can take back a bad contract but please don’t trade Wily or Frank.

    I’m not sure if protection makes it worth giving up a pick because if you use it the next year the pick becomes unprotected.

    Learn from history, Scotty!

    Gee the team’s a lot worse when one of the 3 greatest players in the history of the game is not on the court. Odd indeed. When LBJ off and Kyrie on, -8 per 100. When LBJ off and Kyrie off, -12 per 100.

    I think you’re missing the point. Lebron plus anyone = a really good team that will likely go to the NBA finals in the east. Kyrie (even with Kevin Love) produces a well below average team. He’s not the guy that you want to blow your future and current assets on. He just isn’t. His TS is nice esp at his usage, but he doesn’t make anyone better on offense and he’s a bad defender.

    If you look at the other players’ stats when Lebron’s on the court, their TS’s are awesome. Of the top 7 minute guys with Lebron on court and Kyrie off, 5 of them have TS’s 60+, 1 has a 59.2, and 1 (Shump) has 53.5. When Kyrie is on without Lebron, his usage is 42, his TS is 58, but the only other player who played significant minutes with Kyrie and had a TS above 52 was Tristan Thompson (56.3 with Kyrie, 60.8 with Lebron).

    He’s flashy and a good offensive player, but no way am I trading multiple picks + Ntilikina + Melo for him.

    Are we sure that Melo will waive his NTC to go to Cleveland with Kyrie gone? If they deal KI and want draft picks back as part of it, they are clearly looking to rebuild. LBJ might go in a year. Maybe Melo balks unless he’s positive that he will opt out after one year?

    I’m scared by reports that the Knicks are offering future first rounders (plural) in a potential deal for KI. If they end up doing that, please have some protections in there. Don’t be so stupid to just assume you won’t be bad.

    Keep the young core, including Frank!

    C’mon Morey, time to step up your offer!

    the Cavs are just now hiring a GM right? I think we can expect them to try to get the new guy involved into all of this, so the drama might drag on for a while… It also makes sense that Billups apparently didn’t want the job, seeing as the team was so close to self destructing.

    I know Kyrie is a reasonably good player, but I think he is going to be overvalued in any trade, because of the LeBron effect. I’m also not convinced he’s a two way player. So I am very scared of a trade for him. I don’t trust Knicks management to be sane about this either. They are addicted to “making a splash”, and really big deals to ” splash” addicts are like crack to a crack addict. Price is basically no object.

    Would Miami offer Dragic, Winslow, and a #1 pick? Surely Riley will make an offer for KI?

    the Cavs are just now hiring a GM right? I think we can expect them to try to get the new guy involved into all of this, so the drama might drag on for a while… It also makes sense that Billups apparently didn’t want the job, seeing as the team was so close to self destructing.

    Nothing to really get caught up on; he was already their Assistant GM.

    I’m also not convinced he’s a two way player.

    Don’t know what there’s to be convinced about. He’s not a two-way player, his defense is non-existent.

    Reports on Twitter are pointing out that the Cavs might be seeking somehing close to a top 20 PG, a young wing on a rookie contract and a good first.

    That leaves pretty much only the Heat (Dragic, Winslow + pick) or the Suns (Bledsoe, Warren + pick). I can see Miami’s interest, but are the Suns really that dumb? Is their objective to build the worst defensive backcourt in league’s history?

    or maybe it’s Ron Baker, Dotson and our pick!

    Reports on Twitter are pointing out that the Cavs might be seeking somehing close to a top 20 PG, a young wing on a rookie contract and a good first.

    That leaves pretty much only the Heat (Dragic, Winslow + pick) or the Suns (Bledsoe, Warren + pick). I can see Miami’s interest, but are the Suns really that dumb? Is their objective to build the worst defensive backcourt in league’s history?

    or maybe it’s Ron Baker, Dotson and our pick!

    Phoenix didn’t pull the trigger on a KP for 4th overall and Devin Booker because they like Booker even though he’s actually terrible.

    the Cavs are just now hiring a GM right? I think we can expect them to try to get the new guy involved into all of this, so the drama might drag on for a while

    Bron is the GM/POBO and that might be the key to all of you Isiah PTSD Knick fans. Melo/Bledsoe/KOQ would be very attractive to Bron in exchange for Kyrie. However, Phoenix is gonna want more than a single 1st round pick for 27yo Bledsoe. Now I don’t mind giving them Frank and 2018 pick (protected 1-4) or keeping Frank and giving 2 1st round picks BUT it may be possible that Cavs pony up the second pick to Phoenix. Or maybe Phoenix gets Frank and NYK 2018 pick or 2 NYK 1sts BUT we get Cavs ????pick which would be more distant in the future. So we net out giving up a single pick. This could work cause Bron won’t care about the 2020+ Cavs. The main problem would be that our idiot negotiating team will cave early and give the farm just like when Melo first arrived in NY.

    I want Kyrie but the highest I’d go is Melo, KOQ, 2019 top 5 protected, and two seconds. That is more than fair. I refuse to let any other team come within ten feet of Willy–I legitimately think he’s going to be Gasol-esque.

    For once let’s be the third team where we grab a below market asset between one overpaying team and one team over a barrel

    a deal with ny isn’t happening… not as long as lebron is there… kyrie has no leverage… and whatever trade dumps are available now .. the same ones will be available next year….

    the only trades i see the cavs doing would be for a better player…

    Reports on Twitter are pointing out that the Cavs might be seeking somehing close to a top 20 PG, a young wing on a rookie contract and a good first.

    This makes no sense for a “win now” team. I suspect this might be a ploy to get Knicks to up their offer in a Melo deal and it will probably work. Remember how the Melo/Denver trade played out? Ugh we’re gonna get taken to the cleaners here.

    I doubt that we will land Kyrie on a low-ball deal. Melo, Frank and an unprotected 2018 #1 is about the least I can see getting the deal done, although they might think Frank is too uncertain and far away.

    Realistically, the only way we can trade for Kyrie is the Cavs think getting Melo will convince Lebron to stay in Cleveland, because other teams can easily offer better packages than we can.

    I don’t know how I feel about Kyrie. I see him as a top-50 player, maybe better. What does it mean for the Knick future? He’s signed for 3 years. Does this help the future? If we don’t lose our 1st round pick, I could be content. It might be the best offer we get for Melo. At least this is interesting.

    It may turn out that Melo royally fucks us on the way in and on the way out.

    Y’all got your panties in a bunch.

    I’d offer Melo and if it isn’t good enough, I walk.

    The Knicks should NEVER trade away any picks, including seconds. Even if it was 25 YO Chris Paul, I wouldn’t trade away picks.

    While everyone is freaking out over Kyrie, I’ll just sip this tea..

    Look- I would like to have Kyrie on the Knicks. But I don’t think you bet the farm on him. Sure, he’s an amazing one on one scorer and once he’s in Uncle Drew mode- he’s blindingly good. The kid can flat out play. Throwing all the advanced metrics aside, does anyone here see what the most damning thing about Kyrie is? He plays PG and is one of the best ballhandlers the league has ever seen, but LeBron still has to do everything for Cleveland. LeBron is the best player in the world, hands down. But a PG as talented as Kyrie is SUPPOSED to lighten his load. Kyrie doesn’t do that, so how does anyone expect him to carry a team? Even if he’s Robin to KP’s Batman, how do we trust him at the position he plays? I’m just saying don’t trade for him unless we can keep some assets. So no Willy and definitely no KP. If Cleveland can’t accept something like Ntilikina (don’t wanna lose him, but you’ve gotta give them something they’ll bite on), Melo, KOQ, 2018 top 15 protected, and 2020 unprotected 1st- then you don’t make the deal. We still have to be OK after the trade. We can’t afford to do another Melo trade where we lose more than we gain.

    I doubt that we will land Kyrie on a low-ball deal. Melo, Frank and an unprotected 2018 #1 is about the least I can see getting the deal done, although they might think Frank is too uncertain and far away.

    Then we don’t land him. There’s no universe where Kyrie is the best player on a title contender. At best, he takes us to a .500-ish team next year and I’m not sure he would do that.

    Is Phoenix the “Portland” in this trade refusing to be a 3rd team facilitator and trying to acquire Kyrie directly?

    Well, says you. Are you the GN? POBO? Owner?

    We should walk, period. But if we actually make a deal, what is likely to be the cost? What is realistic?

    Let’s stick to the plan and trade Melo, Lee, O’Quinn and or Thomas in any deal for Irving. But none of the youngins.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y745jfb2

    This is the best trade and I refuse to back down. Phoenix gets the better of a 2018 top 7 protected 1st round pick from us or the Miami pick (and the worse of the two goes to Charlotte). Charlotte gets swap rights on the 2019 1st round pick from us. We keep all of our core players intact and add two long term solutions at our positions of need (and Irving/MKG were high school teammates). If we pull this trade off, we’re winning 48+ games a season the next two years so the picks don’t matter too much. Charlotte gets much needed shooting, two plus defenders, and they slide Batum back to his natural 3 slot. That team is built to win now and Clifford couldn’t play MKG down the stretch of games because he was an offensive liability. You can’t have a team where your two best players (or two of 3) can’t play in the 4th quarter, so this trade helps out. They also get swap rights on a 2019 1st rounder that they could theoretically cash in on, and another pick in this year’s draft. Cleveland gets two starters and upgrades their scoring/defense in one trade.

    The cavs would be cold as hell letting Irving go to the Knicks after getting that extension and passing up FA.

    it seems like the same people arguing that we should trade Courtney Lee or Kyle O’Quinn for a first round pick now don’t want to give one up to get Kyrie AND get rid of Melo.

    Make it top 5 projected, top 10 if you can. but if you have to deal one, do it.

    Kyrie is not just empty pointzzz…

    Yeah, he’s good for one or two ankle breaks a game, and a few ESPN highlights. Those don’t show up in a box score, but they are what championships are built on.

    (I’m pretty sure the only reason NY is on Kyrie’s wish list is so that he can renegotiate a NTC and a few player’s options into his existing deal.)

    He’s not just pointzz, there’s the terrible defence too!

    I will say that he’s on a pretty good contract, he makes THJr money pretty much until 2020.

    but multiple 1st round picks? not worth it.

    it seems like the same people arguing that we should trade Courtney Lee or Kyle O’Quinn for a first round pick now don’t want to give one up to get Kyrie AND get rid of Melo.

    Right or wrong, those two positions aren’t even slightly in opposition to each other. “They want to trade players for picks but don’t want to trade picks for players” is consistent thinking.

    @270

    And there’s a huge difference in the picks.

    nobody expected Lee or KOQ to yield anything more than a Cavs or Rockets pick in the very late 20s. The Knicks picks in the next 2-3 years are far more valuable than that.

    If we have Kyrie in a weak Eastern conference it will likely be in the 15-20 range.

    More valuable than 25-30 but still unlikely to get us a star and hardly far more valuable.

    If everything goes right for the next 3 years… you realize this is the Knicks right?

    Adding Irving and substracting Melo won’t magically add 12-15 wins to this team. Win Shares, a metric that’s actually pretty kind to players like Kyrie, had him at 9 win shares last year… Melo at 4.7 and Rose at 3, THJ at 4.6.

    Irving would have to play incredibly well and KP + Hernangomez + THJ would have to each improve substantially for this team to be 12-15 wins better, which would put our pick in the 15-20 range.

    Marbury was a good player for a lot of his time in NY. The trade for him wasn’t a bad one. It’s not like Maciej Lampe or Kirk Snyder went on to be a star with Phoenix. The worst part about the trade was actually the protections put on what became the Gordon Hayward pick. Who wants to pay a lottery pick for a guy that had already been kicked off the team? Freakin’ pay your bills when they’re due, don’t leave them for your kids to pay after you’re dead.

    If the Knicks trade a big package for the Marburyesque Irving, they can come out of it okay.

    Melo + Frank + Pick could be a fine trade. Irving is young enough, on a decent enough contract, and productive.

    If a championship is the goal, it’s probably not happening in any of our lifetimes with or without trading for Irving. He’ll make it a bit more entertaining to slog through the misery, though.

    I’m certainly fine with them trading for Irving, just so long as it isn’t a terrible trade. I Just don’t have a whole lot of faith that it won’t be a terrible deal.

    I don’t really like Win shares because they don’t really take defense into account and don’t take compatability into account either but even using them, you can say THJ is a straight replacement of Melo’s contribution, Irving adds 6 wins over Rose and then with an increase from KP, due to health, improvement and not playing next to ball stoppers like Melo and rose probably adds another 3 wins, Hernangomez playing more and getting better adds maybe 2 and then the team not actively tanking over the last 10-20 games adds 3 or 4 more. All of a sudden 40-45 wins looks possible. In a weak Eastern conference that’s probably the 6th or 7th seed, ie the 17th or 18th pick.

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