Knicks Morning News (2016.11.23)

  • [ESPN] Wednesday’s Knicks News: Mindaugas Kuzminskas plays big in win over Blazers
    (Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:54:07 AM)

    Wednesday’s Knicks News: Mindaugas Kuzminskas plays big in win over Blazers

  • [ESPN] ‘Vintage’ Derrick Rose is gone — and he’s just fine with that
    (Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:27:38 AM)

    ‘Vintage’ Derrick Rose is gone — and he’s just fine with that

  • [NYPost] Say ‘Cheese’! Knicks’ rookie comes up big in fourth
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 10:50:27 PM)

    It has been a topsy-turvy rookie year for Knicks forward Mindaugas Kuzminskas, who never knows if he will play or how much. In Tuesday’s 107-103 win over the Trail Blazers, Kuzminskas found himself on the court for the entire fourth quarter and the man they call “Cheese” because he always is smiling wound up making…

  • [NYPost] For one night, Derrick Rose brings back the noise at MSG
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 9:29:54 PM)

    This was a night out of long ago, a standard-definition replay, one of those evenings the Garden used to specialize in back in the day. Maybe the Blazers aren’t the Jordan Bulls, or the Mourning Heat, and maybe the Knicks aren’t quite the princes of the city their forebearers were. On this night, though? This…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose’s late heroics help Knicks move to .500
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:16:39 PM)

    Derrick Rose twirled around, clapping at the Garden crowd, thanking them for their vocal chords during his on-court, postgame interview. It was his second-best move of the night. The best came in the final 10 seconds of Tuesday’s 107-103 victory over the Trail Blazers, when Rose hit his biggest shot as a Knick and sent…

  • [NYPost] Knicks coach opens up on meeting that began with Phil’s Zen
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:59:44 PM)

    The ballyhooed clear-the-air meeting Saturday at practice came about after Knicks president Phil Jackson led one of his quirky “mindfulness’’ sessions. The meditation then turned into mediation, according to Jeff Hornacek. The Knicks coach has been vague on the contents of the meeting but said a lot of it centered on the club showing little…

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks climb back to .500 with 107-103 win against Portland
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 10:50:09 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis had 31 points and nine rebounds, Derrick Rose scored six of his 18 points down the stretch, and the New York Knicks beat the Portland Trail Blazers 107-103 on Tuesday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] Noah will not play tonight against Portland
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:55:52 PM)

    Joakim Noah (illness) will not play in tonight’s game against the Portland Trail Blazers.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s Game: Knicks vs. Blazers
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 6:00:56 PM)

    The Knicks host the Blazers on Tuesday night. According to STATS…

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose has the opportunity to evolve with the Knicks
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 12:30:03 PM)

    Derrick Rose has the chance to evolve into a better, more well-rounded point guard with the Knicks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks welcome Trail Blazers to MSG on Tuesday
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 10:35:08 AM)

    The Knicks will host the Portland Trail Blazers at Madison Square Garden on Tuesday night.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks 107, Blazers 103: Derrick Rose, in Triumphant Flash, Lifts Knicks Over Trail Blazers
    (Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01:21 AM)

    Rose had 18 points and hit a crucial jump shot with 6.8 seconds left as the Knicks recorded their fifth straight home victory and evened their record at 7-7.

  • [NYDN] Porzingis, Rose continue to take flight for Knicks
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:45:58 PM)

    Those groans echoing inside MSG when Carmelo Anthony had the ball in the fourth was a sound not heard since the final days of Patrick Ewing.

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis proves again he is the future of Knicks
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:10:20 PM)

    It seems each night at the Garden, Kristaps Porzingis gives Knicks fans a glimpse of something new.

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis, Derrick Rose lead Knicks over Trail Blazers
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 7:53:47 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis dominated again and Derrick Rose had his first signature moment with the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] Knicks team meeting ‘wasn’t even arranged’
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 2:27:56 PM)

    The much-talked-about Knicks team meeting happened more naturally than most originally thought.

  • [NY Newsday] Phil Jackson’s mindfulness meeting works wonders for Knicks
    (Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:16:36 AM)

    The Knicks finally got something out of one Phil Jackson’s mindfulness training sessions.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose’s jumper ices Knicks’ 5th straight win at Garden
    (Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:06:13 AM)

    Whatever was said in that much talked about team meeting last weekend seems to be working for the Knicks. In the two games since that sitdown, they’re playing more freely and with more passion, and are starting to look like a team.

  • [NY Newsday] Brandon Jennings serves up sizzling assists for Knicks
    (Tuesday, November 22, 2016 11:07:00 PM)

    Brandon Jennings blazed down the Garden floor against the Trail Blazers, leading the Knicks on a fast break. Then he cut off the dribble at the foul line and fed Mindaugas Kuzminskas for the two-point prize inside.

  • 330 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.11.23)”

    Very, very, very encouraging game last night. Portland is the kind of team that would torture the Knicks of the last few years because of their talented back court. To see Rose and Jennings do what they did last night was AWESOME.

    KP seems to have elevated his game to the next level and is a star in the making. It seems unreal to have a player this talented and young in a Knicks uniform. Keep it going big fella!

    I felt bad for Melo last night getting booed at home but it did seem to influence him to stop taking forced shots on a night he didn’t really have the touch. Like I noted in the game thread, it’s great that the Knicks don’t settle for iso plays for Melo in crunch time. KP playing like this and Rose being the player he is gives us options. What a relief.

    Willie, Cheezus, Baby Oak, Jennings, Holiday…We got bench baby!!!!

    Great win for us last night!

    It really was unsporting for the fans to boo Melo during a game that the Knicks were winning. I mean, come on, dudes, when you’re winning, a Knick should have to do something really awful to ever merit booing.

    I understood why the fans booed him; in a close game you don’t go iso when you’re having a rough shooting stint. What got us to that point in the game was running the offense and riding KP. To switch into an obviously inferior strategy when you’re not able to get rid of your defender is a bad idea. It’s the thought process that Knicks fans are tired of seeing.

    It was more like grumbling than outright booing anyway, if I recall. Like “oh brother, here we go again,” not “PASS THE BALL, FATSO.”

    I remember the exact moment. The Knicks had made their move, put the starters in and Melo decided to go ISO and the statues showed up. The fans were collectively telling him to pass the rock. I booed.

    Don’t get me wrong, it was definitely a bad decision by Melo, but I think booing is still too much. Now grumbling, that I get. 😉

    1. KP needs to find a way to either hang onto the rim better, or not grab the rim so tightly. It doesn’t matter how young he is, a 7’3 human simply cannot fall flat on his back from 6 feet in the air and not eventually hurt something.
    2. Rose’s shot is pretty ugly, but he showed arc on the last one there, and that left me with some hope.
    3. Brandon Jennings is perfect in a back up role. He can dish, bring lots of energy and not dominate the ball for 35 minutes. He’s still an inefficient, volume scorer.
    4. I think people are jumping the shark on Noah. The dude hasn’t gotten his legs fully, and an illness is just bad luck. When he has shown how good he can be, he is very good. KP is so good, he will learn to play well with Noah.
    5. Geez, the knives come out quickly for Melo. The man is playing the most complete game overall than we have seen. He is subjugating himself to KP, understanding he is playing with a transcendent talent. Melo has been a great mentor and he is a grave threat on the court, making KP, Rose and guys like Kuz more able and more dangerous. Yeah, I rolled Kuz in there.
    6. Kuz is a very athletic 27 year old. He is not your typical rook. We are going to see a lot of him and he is going to be a great piece. Watch.
    7. I think guys like O’Quinn are better because the team is better. They are expected to fill a role, not be a focal point. This is what happens with teams that have two or three very good players. The role players aren’t asked to do too much and their weaknesses are less evident.
    8. Hornacek is getting a good feel for rotations and match ups with this team. He did a great job last night.
    9. KP doesn’t have to be the go to at the end. We have three guys who can do that.
    10. A caution: Bradley was cheering, but Jackson was smirking. He’s not happy there is no hint of triangle. Bears watching.

    Brian, I think Monroe would be an interesting move solely b/c of Noah’s age and probably declining trade value. He’s definitely not an uptempo player and has b-ball IQ issues, so I’m not rooting for the trade, but from a cold GM perspective, it could be a move that increases the value of that salary slot. Like Noah, he’s not a perfect fit for out team, but he’s young and can score and rebound, and could probably be moved far more readily than a 34yo injured Noah.

    I wonder if the Bucks would take Lance, KOQ and filler for him. Or a package w/ Courtney Lee (I’m not a big fan thus far.)

    Its funny how some of Phils lower scale moves have outplayed the larger scale ones.

    Langston>Afflalo
    Holiday> Lee(though part of a larger scal deal)
    Kuz>Lance
    Jennings>Rose(according to many on here)

    I’m not a big fan thus far.

    Lee reminds me a bit of Afflalo, in that they were guys I loved when they were younger, but age may have sapped their earlier skills. With Afflalo it definitely happened, as he was no longer the good defender by the time he got here that he was when he was younger, but Lee so far looks so much slower than he did just last year!! I really don’t get it.

    but Jackson was smirking. He’s not happy there is no hint of triangle. Bears watching.

    I never can tell with that guy. It definitely was weird, but he’s just so weird in general that I don’t think you can read too much into any particular thing that he does.

    @8

    Anytime you can package your starting 2 guard for another center you gotta do it. Lee’s fine. He did a great job on CJ last night and has proven over his career that he will be a solid shooter and relatively efficient supporting act.

    Re: Melo

    Yes, he bears some blame for the late game isolations when he didn’t have it rolling at all. However most of those were either designed isolations from Horny or sets that Rose was getting us in too. If you give Melo an isolation and nobody off the ball does anything he has to shoot the ball. KP also needs to demand the ball in those situations. Melo did make some really good hustle plays down the stretch which helped us win.

    That last play is the Knicks bread and butter set in half court. The double screen and roll with a roll man and a shooter that pops out is deadly, especially when Melo and KP are the screen setters. Obviously it turned into a Rose isolation but the initial movement created enough space for Rose to operate and Portland couldn’t send any help.

    Harkless is an excellent player. In an otherwise Knicksy summer where they soared over the cap for meh players, 4/40m for him is a steal.

    I don’t think Jax was upset. Its not like he expected us to run a set on that play.

    Lets stop trying to overanalyze the guy.

    A friend of mine saw Clyde at an airport the other night and texted a photo. That dude looks so young! The just for men is doing its job. 🙂 Clyde was, of course, dressed in an outlandish outfit even on his day off.

    Vis a vis our inscrutable team president, this stretch of the season could be very interesting. We’re playing really well while rarely using his beloved system. If Phil really is a Triangle-above-all-else zealot, then he’s going to start stirring up trouble, either directly or via Charley Rosen. If he’s true to his “I just want A system — any system will do” words, then all will be copacetic. But the team succeeding long-term sans Triangle could certainly result in him walking away soon, and in a way that allows him to frame the exit positively: “I drafted Porzingis, I hired Hornacek, I acquired these vets; my work here is done.”

    Excited by these last few wins, but trying not to get too jubilant just yet. Portland is even worse defensively than we are, and they have the exact kind of frontline that Porzingis should be abusing. At the same time, we kept their backcourt from exploding on us the way every Knicks team of the last decade-plus would have, and we missed a lot of easy and/or wide-open shots (including at least three blown dunks by Melo and KOQ) that would have gone in on a different night.

    And, man, is KP fun to watch.

    “Anytime you can package your starting 2 guard for another center you gotta do it. Lee’s fine. He did a great job on CJ last night and has proven over his career that he will be a solid shooter and relatively efficient supporting act.”

    I think Brian’s Afflalo comparison is valid, although Lee has played some nice D. I merely think that from a cold-blooded GM pov, trading for Monroe might be an interesting move to consider. But I’m generally OK with Lee, and with Noah. At the very least, they are servicable, good chemistry guys with high b-ball IQ’s. Lee’s comment about needing to run PnR in practice so that they can practice D against it was pure genius.

    Clyde was, of course, dressed in an outlandish outfit even on his day off.

    Come back soon, Clyde. I don’t want to have to hear Wally Szczerbiak do color commentary anymore.

    We can’t trade for Monroe. We need those smaller tradeable contacts like KOQ and Lance so we can move them to make cap room if necessary this off season. Monroe would not be easy to move.

    We quite literally don’t need Monroe. He’s an offense only post-up center who is slow getting up and down the floor and is likely to activate his $18m player option for next year. I’m not ready to give up on guys or start making moves a month into the season. Let’s give it some time to simmer together before making any moves.

    Yeah, and if we were to make moves, it should be for a guard or a wing, not another big man.

    Monroe is playing really well and has done so the past two years but I wouldn’t trade for him–he doesn’t fit our play style at all and that would create a big hole at SG unless you got Brogdon, who’s still pretty raw. Trading Lee without a fallback option opens up the door for *gulps* Sasha Vujacic

    So the Bockers are 1-0 so far in the most interesting part of the early season. Upcoming they have the 2 Hornet games, 2 timberwolve games, okc, Sac and Miami. The Knicks should win the next 7 games before dec 7 and the Cleveland rematch.

    14-7 to 12-9 should be the record going into that game

    I love Clyde, but I liked Szczerbiak. He did a nice job.

    All this Courtney Lee bashing seems unfair.
    The guy wasn’t brought here as an offensive weapon per se. He is a good shooter teams have to respect.
    But his defense is what he was brought here for and had to guard both Lillard and McCollum, two very good offensive guards. The fear was each guy could tags the Knicks with 30 points, but they combined for 35.
    That was in large part to Lee’s strong D. His D on McCollum along the baseline late was simply great. His foot speed was outstanding and his anticipation was perfect. He forced a bad shot.

    I like Lee. You need a guy like that. When you have Rose, Melo and KP, plus Jennings and a guy like Kuz who can also score without having plays called, Lee’s scoring only needs to be respectable.

    And he’s never played with all these out-sized personalities. He’ll settle into a place. Still only 14 games in.

    Some on this board have this tendency: They’re dating a lovely woman, so they get cocky and think now they can get a beautiful model strutting through Soho.
    Maybe we should give this team a chance before deciding to alter it and creating new chemistry issues. Geez

    I love er calling a 9-game win streak like it ain’t no thing. This board never ceases to entertain.

    er
    November 23, 2016 at 9:37 am
    So the Bockers are 1-0 so far in the most interesting part of the early season. Upcoming they have the 2 Hornet games, 2 timberwolve games, okc, Sac and Miami. The Knicks should win the next 7 games before dec 7 and the Cleveland rematch.

    14-7 to 12-9 should be the record going into that game

    I see this as a possibility, but they need to show the same grit on the road.

    But remember the days when the Knicks played better on the road and they were shit at home? Nice to see playing at MSG means a tough night for the bad guys again. It really feels like the Knicks are playing West Coast basketball.

    The Honorable Cock Jowles
    November 23, 2016 at 9:51 am
    I love er calling a 9-game win streak like it ain’t no thing. This board never ceases to entertain.

    the board is a bit hormonal sometimes with the wild swings, although er is at least consistent in his views of the team.
    But the Knicks will need to translate this into effort on the road.

    Don’t get me wrong, it was definitely a bad decision by Melo, but I think booing is still too much. Now grumbling, that I get. 😉

    It was much more of the latter than the former. Let’s call it a NYC grumble. He heard it. He stopped. They stopped booing.

    About Melo, I think he’s starting to get used to the new paradigm. It’s a good one for him but it’s obviously a challenge for the former superstar to resist the temptation to be the focal point of the offense. He’s now part of a tandem and hopefully, in a few weeks, a trio of dangerous scorers. (I’m really hopeful that Rose continues to elevate his game). He’s 32 and wants to play until he’s 40. If that’s the case, he needs to become Vince Carterish. I think he can because his game is not predicated on speed. His presence draws doubles and frees up everyone else. If they decide to double KP, Melo’s now freed up. Having Melo in a complimentary role is an amazing thing. Good things are happening in MSG.

    I didn’t call it Jowles, I said they should. I think the Knicks are better than all those teams. Who should they lose to? The only game I kinda expect is at Charlotte

    I’m with Frank. No need for a trade. The current team is still gelling and beginning to play much better on both ends of the court. Horny seems to have worked out the rotations. No need to disrupt the flow right now fellas. The biggest issue for me is making sure that we maximize Noah on both ends of the court and the team keeps up the effort on the defensive end.

    Lee is a good player and a nice fit for this team.

    Oh and that Cheezus 3 last night was huge! He is a nice looking player and his skill set is a perfect compliment to Jennings.

    A friend of mine saw Clyde at an airport the other night and texted a photo. That dude looks so young! The just for men is doing its job. 🙂 Clyde was, of course, dressed in an outlandish outfit even on his day off.

    a few years ago i sat directly behind bernard king on a flight to san fran. he was on his way to get honored @ GSW for his HOF induction. he was ridiculously gracious and told stories for most of the flight.

    I hope I’m not being misinterpreted. I’m not “calling for a trade.” I’m simply asking for feedback on whether anyone thinks it is a wise move strictly from a long-term value added perspective.

    Nor am I bashing Lee. I’m only saying that he is disappointing to me thus far. If you look at his current numbers vs. his career stats, he’s way off. Is there any disputing that?

    Melo just didn’t have his legs last night. Blew the two dunks, missed some wiiiiide open looks that he always makes, etc. That he kept trying to shoot through it well after it was clear he had nothing was frustrating, but he did eventually stop it with the hero ball, which wouldn’t have been the case for much of his tenure here. Whether that was his choice, Hornacek’s, or simply Rose deciding to play hero in Melo’s place, I don’t know. But it used to be nearly impossible for us to win on nights when he was just bad on offense, so our ability to do it last night was in many ways as refreshing as the fact that Lillard and McCollum didn’t combine for 60 on us.

    @31 – ER, I disagree with the “should” tag. The Knicks “could” win 5 out of 7 but I’m just hoping for 4 out of 7. I actually have them going 2-5.

    Re: Lee, I think he’s finding it hardest to adapt right now. He looked out of it yesterday. It wasn’t just the missed shots. There were a few bad defensive sequences. He had no energy. He missed catching passes in the lane. Something else seems to be going on. As Brian said, he’s looking sluggish.

    I thought Wally did a fine job as color commentator. He’s definitely a homer, but had some good insights and observations and worked well with Breen.

    And I know it’s heresy on this site, but taking a break from “the Knicks have a little pep in their step” “they can ill afford to trade baskets” and “bounding and astounding” was frankly refreshing.

    The numbers don’t support this (yet), but I think Hernangomez is probably 80% of Greg Monroe at 5% of the price, so trading for Monroe seems counterproductive. We don’t need yet another shot creator, we need guys who impose their will on defense. I really hope, and believe, that Noah is going to provide this–he is the only one apart from Jennings who can light that fire and energize the team and crowd.

    So the Bockers are 1-0 so far in the most interesting part of the early season. Upcoming they have the 2 Hornet games, 2 timberwolve games, okc, Sac and Miami. The Knicks should win the next 7 games before dec 7 and the Cleveland rematch.

    14-7 to 12-9 should be the record going into that game

    I’m a pretty big homer and I still think that’s unreasonable. 12-9 is probably the best case outcome but hey, I’ll take that. This team has a lot of room for improvement on the road.

    I thought Wally did a fine job as color commentator. He’s definitely a homer, but had some good insights and observations and worked well with Breen.

    And I know it’s heresy on this site, but taking a break from “the Knicks have a little pep in their step” “they can ill afford to trade baskets” and “bounding and astounding” was frankly refreshing.

    Agreed, I don’t understand why people hate on Wally. It’s kind of fun when the color commentator is getting that hyped. I can’t remember which play, but at one point he just exclaimed “sweeeeeeet” when the Knicks did something good. It’s like watching the game with a fellow fan, who just happens to have an NBA career and five kids he mentions constantly.

    Also, Melo may be finally entering the “Paul Pierce” phase of his career wherein he is still a dangerous scorer and the longest tenured member of his team, but has enough confidence in the talent of his teammates that he’s happy to fit in and win instead of stand out and pout.

    Lastly, never forget:

    Derrick Rose is not a scoring threat.

    Lee is not a guy who is going to force his offense (thank God) and will get most of his points off penetration and kick outs from our PGs. He is playing good defense though. EVERY player gets beat at some point during the course of an NBA game. That’s just the way it is. Lee gives good effort on the defensive end, has quick feet and makes the opponent work to get his points. I’m okay with that.

    I thought Wally was fine. I kinda hated him as a player but I think he does a pretty good job on the broadcasts. He gets really excited when the Knicks make a good play and I kinda like that. He yelled “sweet” when Rose made that crazy reverse layup. I was yelling too so I enjoyed his reaction.

    4 or 5 wins in the next 7 games would be AWESOME. That kind of success would bode well for the rest of the season. We’ll see…

    The boys are looking pretty good right now. I certainly hope they can sustain it.

    Lastly, never forget:

    his TS% is .501 right now, if anything he’s a threat to the Knicks’ offense

    Wally was awesome, just awesome. He offers advanced insights into the game. I know that a lot of the criticism of him here is how much he’s gushing over Rose. Listen to Wally talk about Rose’s flat shot and then watch/listen to Rose’s full post-game interview. They are saying pretty much the same thing. Wally talks about his flat shot, some of it because he’s elevating so well. Rose knows that he’s not completely where he needs to be in terms of his shot. He talked about knowing how high to jump on his jumper and other mechanical things that are due to the fact that he missed preseason.

    Wally also had some interesting things to say about Hernangomez without using his name. He said that “they are killing the Knicks with their rolls”. That was when Willy was in the game and it’s one thing about his defensive game that needs to be worked on, defending the pick and roll as a big man. Pay attention to Szczerbiak and you may learn something.

    The worst thing that I can say about Wally is that he’s a bit of a homer. But that’s alright, as long as he points out the things that need work.

    @43 – I’m developing a Kuz crush.

    @45, yeah those suits are atrocious…LOL

    And Cheezus is a fun watch. I really didn’t think he could replace D-Will but the guy is growing on me for sure.

    his TS% is .501 right now, if anything he’s a threat to the Knicks’ offense

    LOL. Can’t help yourself, can ya? Knicks ORTG is +12.4 when he’s on the court compared to when he isn’t. The team’s eFG% shoots up from .460 to .510, again, only when he’s on the court.

    B-b-b-but his TS?!

    You fundamentally don’t understand what a “scoring threat” is. When Derrick Rose dusts his defender and gets into the paint, I promise you nobody on the opposing team thinks “Whatever, I looked him up on basketball-reference.com before the game, I know his TS sucks and I’m not going to contest.” He is a threat. Everyone collapses into the paint to try to stop him, because he is a threat. And in fact, he’s shooting as well at the rim as he has at any point since his MVP year, so yeah, they are correct to do so.

    Sorry pal. I know it must hurt to watch someone you despise dominate a 2nd team All-NBA PG down in the 4th quarter of a close game before icing it with a clutch basket, but don’t worry–I’m sure the Knicks will lose again soon enough and all will be right in your world.

    mostly not on board with Wally, though his attention to detail is solid. He spent the entire game repeating how MVP derrick rose was back, which even MVP derrick rose strongly denied an hour later.

    Also, Wally did not prep enough on the Blazers. The best league pass announcers, who are few, do real work on the Knicks and actually say interesting things. Obviously Clyde doesn’t do that, but you can’t make an artist paint by numbers.

    +/- isn’t totally meaningless but it’s very dangerous to make any definitive claims this early in the season…. you have sample size issues on top of lineups being in flux….

    I’m a pretty big homer and I still think that’s unreasonable. 12-9 is probably the best case outcome but hey, I’ll take that. This team has a lot of room for improvement on the road.

    Who are the threats?

    Charlotte 2x
    Minny 2x
    OKC
    SAC
    MIA

    I said they could lose 2 but they should win them all

    Everyone collapses into the paint to try to stop him, because he is a threat.

    This would make sense except his pass rate on drives is 7% — insanely low for a PG who drives at an elite rate like he does. You can’t talk about him collapsing the defense when he doesn’t take advantage of it.

    We see it all the time. Even yesterday when he had a solid game, he had willy and KP and Kuz with 0 defenders near them at the 3 pt line and in the paint numerous times and elected to shoot floaters over 1-2 ppl. Some of the shots dropped — which is great! but a tough mid range from a not great mid range shooter is not as good a play as a wide open person from literally anywhere, let alone the paint or the 3 pt line.

    Rose is getting better — but his tunnel vision and decision making and shooting is really frustrating , even when he shoots well.

    Kuz isn’t a world beater on defense but he’s been better than advertised, considering most people thought him totally handicapped in that end.

    He’s better than D-Will on that end, for sure. And he can shoot threes.

    I love him, he’s such a vet, and he’s crafty and intelligent and centered. Great signing.

    you know, Melo was 7-14 before he went 0-7 in the fourth.
    I think that reflects the no legs argument.
    I too was concerned watching him dunk. It was clearly an elevation problem. That one-hand put-back slam would have been monstrous if only he had another inch or two elevation. without the elevation the angle was all wrong. The second dunk also was clearly an elevation thing.
    For whatever reason, his legs weren’t under him last night…
    And yet, he contested defensively and had a couple key rebounds down the stretch.

    I don’t think it’s fair to say Jowles doesn’t want to the Knicks to win.
    I think he’s consistently followed an efficiency-based ethos. That doesn’t make him anti-Knick.
    It makes him anti-certain players and certainly management, but that means he’s pretty much like most of us.

    Rose is still playing inefficient ball. He misses a lot, he turns over the ball too much and isn’t racking up assists as much as I would prefer.
    But his game must be respected. He is getting to the net, and he is facing two and three players when he does it because if he faces only one guy, he’s highly likely to finish.
    And if he draws two and three guys, if his head is up, he’s going to find a lot of open Knicks. This year, we have several guys who can make collapsing defenses pay.

    I can see his value. I just hope some of the circus shots he attempts either begin to drop or they turn into assists for a diving KP or Noah or a catch and shooting Melo or Kuz.

    Charlotte 2x
    Minny 2x
    OKC
    SAC
    MIA

    They could easily lose both games against CHA, 1 game against MIN, and the game against OKC. Hell this team is so up and down they could lose almost every one of these games. Not saying they will, but I’m still not very confident in this team to beat bad teams, especially on the road.

    @48 — very much agree, but Rose did also visit “crazy town” with some poor decisions in the 4th, and Jowles could just as easily be gloating about Rose if that last shot had bricked. PJ’s shaking head at the end was obviously to say, “Ok, got lucky this time guys, but let’s not draw it up that way. Old/bad habit.”

    More Kuz — if he can reliably hit that 3 pointer off a Rose drive + kick out (and if Rose and Melo can trust that Kuz will do so late in games), this team will be something to watch indeed. (maybe like Novak during Linsanity?)

    If it’s Clarence Gaines who got us all these Euros, then Phil has earned his money just by having him around

    If there’s one thing I can give the Knicks credit for, it’s their overseas scouting–their scouting in general, really. They’ve hit on a lot of euros in the past few years.

    They could easily lose both games against CHA, 1 game against MIN, and the game against OKC. Hell this team is so up and down they could lose almost every one of these games. Not saying they will, but I’m still not very confident in this team to beat bad teams, especially on the road.

    They’ve played 14 games and won the last four of five games, and 5-3 over the last eight.
    I’m not so sure that’s necessarily up and down. Small sample, but the trend seems to be up.

    I said they could lose 2 but they should win them all

    When you play the defense we do, i don’t think there are **likely wins** against other teams with strong offenses like CHA (12 in off eff) and MIN (7 in off eff). No one on our teams, for example, can guard kemba, wiggins, or towns, and those teams are tremendous at opening shots for their role players. Granted, no one on those teams can guard KP or Melo either, hence our competitiveness.

    We absolutely could win those, and we should be competitive, but you making it sound like they’re easy calls as favorites O_o.

    If Rose maintains his overall impact on both ends in the last 2 games over the course of the season, the advanced stats will hate him, but he’ll be a player that will help this team win games. His defense on Lillard and Schroder was better than any Knicks guard since idk when and his rebounding at a career high rate has been extremely useful for a team that struggles to clear the defensive glass. His offense is hopefully more a work in progress, than a “this is who he is forever” thing.

    I believe Rose can get up to 30 AST% and 52 TS%, but I’m an optimist. Right now I’m just happy that we’re not at an athletic disadvantage every single night at the guard positions.

    Who are the threats?
    Charlotte 2x
    Minny 2x
    OKC
    SAC
    MIA

    I have the Knicks splitting with Min and Cha and losing the rest. The way that Miami and Sacramento are playing, though, makes me think that they could win 4 out of 7. But the Knicks are the type of team that will win against good teams and lose against poor ones. I have the Knicks winning 43 games this year. If they go 5-2 instead of 2-5 I’ll up my prediction to 50.

    You can talk to me until you’re blue in the face about how Rose’s drives to the basket create a positive effect for the rest of the offense, I saw the fourth quarter and he missed a lot of open men to set up his own shot. That shit works so long as he is able to finish strong and consistently score. But there were multiple times when I wasn’t impressed, and I wager Phil wasn’t either – hence his look at the end of the game.

    very much agree, but Rose did also visit “crazy town” with some poor decisions in the 4th, and Jowles could just as easily be gloating about Rose if that last shot had bricked. PJ’s shaking head at the end was obviously to say, “Ok, got lucky this time guys, but let’s not draw it up that way. Old/bad habit.”

    Gloat about what? Rose turned a broken play into a game-icing bucket. People are reading way too much into whether the corners of Phil Jackson’s mouth turned up enough and forgetting that we won the damn game on the back of Derrick Rose taking over down the stretch when an ice-cold Melo and a gassed Porzingis were starting to sputter. And he was part of a defensive effort that kept Lillard and McCollum to a combined 38 points on 35 shots.

    I’m not saying Derrick Rose walks on water, but the “TS is bad, so he is bad, end of story” folks are being willfully ignorant of anything, either statistically or anecdotally, that contradicts their predetermined narrative. What’s the benefit of repeating things like “Derrick Rose has lost his athleticism, Derrick Rose is not a scoring threat” like some stupid mantra when it’s beyond obvious to anyone who cares to watch the game that it’s not true? It’s just sad, to me, because we’re supposed to be Knicks fans but some here seem to care more about hating Rose than enjoying the Knicks success if/when he has anything to do with it, last night being a case in point.

    Smh at the same people who bash Phil Jackson for every possible perceived error falling back on the appeal to authority (or rather, trying to interpret the look on his face) to discredit what was an objectively game-saving performance by Rose in the 4th.

    eave it to Knickerblogger to elevate “sore winning” to an art form.

    People are reading way too much into whether the corners of Phil Jackson’s mouth turned up enough and forgetting that we won the damn game on the back of Derrick Rose taking over down the stretch when an ice-cold Melo and a gassed Porzingis were starting to sputter.

    Hornacek said in the postgame that they drew up several plays for KP in the end of the fourth quarter but his teammates couldn’t get him the ball. Gee, I wonder who was the PG there?

    Hornacek said in the postgame that they drew up several plays for KP in the end of the fourth quarter but his teammates couldn’t get him the ball. Gee, I wonder who was the PG there?

    It also has to do with KP being tired too. It will get better.

    Clarence Gaines earned all the money when he gave Phil the hard sell on Porzingis

    If Phil didn’t believe in cronyism we might have Justise Winslow or Trey Lyles and Frank Kaminsky right now, lol.

    Jrue Holiday is quietly having a good start to his season and will probably on his way out of New Orleans. It would be pretty fun to have the Holiday Bros in New York next year.

    Hornacek said in the postgame that they drew up several plays for KP in the end of the fourth quarter but his teammates couldn’t get him the ball. Gee, I wonder who was the PG there?

    Gee, I wonder if Rose was willfully ignoring KP or if other factors may have contributed to him not getting the ball down the stretch. You’d think Rose didn’t hit several huge buckets down to close out a tight game and outplay Lillard down the stretch.

    I’m not saying Derrick Rose walks on water, but the “TS is bad, so he is bad, end of story” folks are being willfully ignorant of anything, either statistically or anecdotally, that contradicts their predetermined narrative.

    The irony of you saying this…

    Firstly, 18 points on 16 TSA is not great. It’s a solid game and his lone TO is indicative of a solid performance.

    Secondly, you value that last-second shot more than you do the fourteen shot attempts that he took before it. What about the 7 he missed before making that high-profile, memorable shot attempt?

    Thirdly, where were you when he posted 14 points on 15 TSA on Sunday? Or 3 points and 5 turnovers on 7 TSA on the 14th? Or 7 turnovers and 11 points on 12 TSA on the 11th?

    It’s easy to construct a “Rose is good!” narrative when you willfully ignore the data that’s out there that suggests that he is, yet again, one of the worst starting PG in the league. But of course, that “clutch” ISO shot last night overrides all the hundreds of microtransactions that lead to a decreased expectancy of a Knicks win. Because Derrick Rose. Because MVP. Because hurrrrrrrrrrrr durrrrrrrrrrrr

    Clarence Gaines and the Knicks European scout, Kevin Wilson, are fucking awesome btw.

    Gee, I wonder if Rose was willfully ignoring KP or if other factors may have contributed to him not getting the ball down the stretch. You’d think Rose didn’t hit several huge buckets down to close out a tight game and outplay Lillard down the stretch.

    Look at your statement. You allude to the fact that the reason KP didn’t get the ball down the stretch was due to ‘other factors’ than Rose playing hero ball and then you move onto the rationalization that Rose scored so therefore its a moot point. Weird train of logic here.

    KP (and other players) were open multiple times. Rose wasn’t looking.

    Its just sad that Jennings can get 10 assists off the bench in less time than Rose and people still play this stupid game of acting like opportunities to find the open man weren’t there for the former.

    This would make sense except his pass rate on drives is 7% — insanely low for a PG who drives at an elite rate like he does. You can’t talk about him collapsing the defense when he doesn’t take advantage of it.

    This stat says a lot, and it definitely matches my “eye test” of Rose, and it throws a lot of cold water on the “Rose’s drives are making the offense awesome” theory. He doesn’t pass out of those drives. He shoots. Like 90+ percent of the time.

    I think Rose and Jennings are a nice compliment. One drives to score, the other drives to pass. That’s why they work well in the same lineup

    Kuz, the Lithuanian Iceman, is also a great passer although we haven’t seen that much of it yet. What a great addition he, BJ, Willy, Holiday have been at low cost.

    Rose is looking more explosive every day and when Wally praises him I know it irks many of you.

    Phil is and has done a fantastic job for this franchise with so many terrific players of all ages and draft picks going forward so that today we have to call him old to minimize it. He was a racist after our previous win.

    “I just want Rose to get more points than FGA.”
    If that’s all you want, then you should be pretty happy with his performance because, so far, he has 221 points on 203 FGA.

    Look at your statement. You allude to the fact that the reason KP didn’t get the ball down the stretch was due to ‘other factors’ than Rose playing hero ball and then you move onto the rationalization that Rose scored so therefore its a moot point. Weird train of logic here.

    Not really. KP is too deferential at this point in his career to Melo and Rose. He had it rolling, but was happy to stand out on the perimeter when they checked back in the game instead of working for post position. The one time he did work for position Rose tried to get him the ball, but couldn’t create the angle. KP was also gassed to the point Hornacek called a TO just to let him catch his breath.

    They also ran a pick and pop for KP on the Knicks’ last basket, which he kicked back to Rose on because he was driving nowhere and nearly threw it behind Rose leading to a turnover.

    Rose ran 1/3 PNR with Melo almost exclusively down the stretch. I have a hard time believing that was just on him calling the shots and that Hornacek had no input in to that decision or that running a Melo isolation out of a timeout was Rose or Melo’s call. The Rose/Melo PNR also yielded one uncontested layup for Rose and another floater. It wasn’t all bad at all.

    Its just sad that Jennings can get 10 assists off the bench in less time than Rose and people still play this stupid game of acting like opportunities to find the open man weren’t there for the former.

    Not at all. Rose does need to be a better distributor, but I don’t think he shoulders all the blame for KP’s lack of touches down the stretch. Hornacek, Melo and KP himself contributed to that.

    This would make sense except his pass rate on drives is 7% — insanely low for a PG who drives at an elite rate like he does. You can’t talk about him collapsing the defense when he doesn’t take advantage of it.

    Derrick Rose has a pass rate of 29.9 on drives, which is 12th among 19 players that average over 9.0 drives per game, more than Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, Damian Lillard and Giannis Antetokounmpo. He is however 15th in assist rate at just 6.6. Out of that group he also has the 5th lowest turnover rate on drives at 4.4 and is 4th in FG% at 55.1

    Because hurrrrrrrrrrrr durrrrrrrrrrrr

    Nobody in the “Derrick Rose is not a scoring threat” camp gets to hurrr durrr me today. FOH with that noise. I hope you have an opportunity to recover from the agony of the Knicks win by this weekend.

    PJ is a former coach. And even though he’s the GM now, since the Knicks are his team, he’s gonna have coach like reactions to moments like Rose hitting that shot. It was a broken play and we got lucky plus the game was not over. Coaches don’t celebrate a go ahead bucket. They sigh relief when the clock hits zero and their team wins. Bradley is a fan. That’s why he threw his arms up and cheered while Jackson only quietly looked on. The fact that anyone would read into this just shows you how stupid and bored most of sports media is.

    we’re winning all or most of those games. Haters and doubters are gonna STFU here in the next 2 weeks.

    I go through the schedule every year before the season starts and predict wins and losses to arrive at my guess as to how many wins they’ll get. Those were my preseason guesses and I came up with 43 wins. I had ATL as a loss but the Blazers as a win. Many of us agreed to reassess the team after 20 games because with so many new faces, we had to see how they would gel. While there are some haters and some fanboys on this board, I like to think of myself as somewhere in the rational middle.

    Re: Porzingis at the end of the game. KP torched Portland for 31 points. Do you think that they were just going to let him beat them? Of course not. They focused on denying him the ball and doubling him when he touched it. That’s fine because it opened things up for others. KP didn’t get a shot off after Ed Davis came in for Mason Plumlee. I think there’s a correlation.

    He shoots. Like 90+ percent of the time.

    He’s shooting 60% at the rim. Why shouldn’t he shoot when he gets there again? How many passes are going to immediately result in a shot opportunity with an expected eFG of .600? Please.

    He’s not always shooting at the rim when he drives–he often settles for flat arc floaters against 7 foot centers. That’s not great when you have KP–our resident 40% 3 point shooter–open for a three

    Derrick Rose has a pass rate of 29.9 on drives, which is 12th among 19 players that average over 9.0 drives per game, more than Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, Damian Lillard and Giannis Antetokounmpo.

    Shhhh, don’t disturb the narrative.

    I go through the schedule every year before the season starts and predict wins and losses to arrive at my guess as to how many wins they’ll get.

    that’s a lot of eye test my brother

    He’s not always shooting at the rim when he drives–he often settles for flat arc floaters against 7 foot centers. That’s not great when you have KP–our resident 40% 3 point shooter–open for a three

    Nobody is arguing his shot selection is ideal or that he doesn’t need to continue to make an effort to facilitate more. There is very obviously room for improvement. That’s a far cry from “Derrick Rose is not a threat to score, hurrr durrr TS is bad end of story.”

    Huge win last night against a team that usually kills them. With all of his faults, pointed out in minute detail here, Rose is a gigantic upgrade at point guard over last year. Or has everyone forgotten the corpse of Calderon and Jerian Grant?

    KP starting to carry the team and live up to the hype, this could be fun…

    Or has everyone forgotten the corpse of Calderon and Jerian Grant?

    Forgotten? How could anyone forget the cherished memories of Jose Calderon outplaying Damian Lillard and Grant dropping double digit dimes off the bench on the regular?

    Not enough love for Kuzminskas on this blog.

    I second the motion.

    I was a little disappointed we didn’t keep Derrick Williams, but not anymore.

    OMG! How can you guys be upset with Rose today? He was a major reason why the Knicks won. I said it last night, with last year’s back court we would’ve lost by a dozen.

    BTW, did anyone note that Jose was 4-5, all 3-pt shots last night as a starter? No, I don’t want him back. The Lakers can keep him.

    Another Rose debate. How lame.

    Look. Here’s the deal. I’ll make it real simple for you. Opposing team’s guards actually have a challenge now when they play us. Last year they could literally take a nap on defense. All they had to do was close out on Calderon if he was open for a 3 and make sure Affalo didn’t back them down in the post. They never had to worry about keeping in front of them. So they could rest on defense and then expend all the all their energy on offense. It would be one thing if Calderon and Affalo were great at defense but also they sucked at defense! So not only could the guards of other teams rest when they played defense, they could score easily on offense! So our big men had to work harder on defense AND they never got set up with decent shots or benefitted from second chance opportunities on offense bc Calderon and Affalo were old and slow and generally sucked. Now Rose (and Jennings) make life HARD for the other team’s guards. Sure they might get lit up still by the Harden’s of the world but average NBA guards aren’t going to go off for 35 in the Garden and look like MVP’s against us.

    Look at the overall stats of Jennings, Rose, Lee and Holiday. Compare their total points, assists and shot attempts vs. opposing team’s guards. You’ll see we aren’t getting outplayed by other team’s guards night in and night out. Does this mean Rose is always going to outplay the other team’s PG? No. But collectively our guard play is light years ahead of last year. I know it kills you guys to actually give credit where its due. But we just beat 2 good playoff teams and we’re 500. We’re currently a 6th seed. And our schedule in December gets easier. Get ready. Its about to get fun!

    I was a little disappointed we didn’t keep Derrick Williams, but not anymore.

    Yeah. Particularly since Derrick Williams appears to be playing like ass down in Miami, while we now have Cheezus Christ as our bench savior.

    there’s nothing that suggests that rose has played good on the whole…. that doesn’t mean he hasn’t done good things… but his overall play is weighing down on the team….

    we did not win yesterday’s game because of rose… kp and mindy did the heavy lifting and rose played hero ball down the stretch and hit the shot that might mask his otherwise terrible plays…

    KP is too deferential at this point in his career to Melo and Rose. He had it rolling, but was happy to stand out on the perimeter when they checked back in the game instead of working for post position.

    Its called playing team ball not hero ball. I know it is as rare as unicorns and rainbows throughout a superstar driven NBA outside of San Antonio, but its a mentality every starter should have on this offense. You think it was an accident that our entire bench had a net positive differential in the game while our starting lineup, sans KP, had a negative differential? It wasn’t. You think it was an accident KP’s offensive barrages came when Rose was on the bench with foul trouble and Melo sat down? It was not.

    KP and other teammates were open in those final minutes and Rose passed them up.

    So which is it, is it a 7% pass rate or a 29% pass rate? Where are you nerds finding these statistics? I wanna see for myself.

    Since Kuz has been balling, my “we should have gotten rid of Lance Thomas and kept this guy” guy is now Langston Galloway.

    PJ is a former coach. And even though he’s the GM now, since the Knicks are his team, he’s gonna have coach like reactions to moments like Rose hitting that shot. It was a broken play and we got lucky plus the game was not over. Coaches don’t celebrate a go ahead bucket. They sigh relief when the clock hits zero and their team wins.

    This. So much this. You can tell that play was fucked up from the onset and Phil’s reaction was to its poor execution. But, hey, Rose pulled a jumper out of his ass so I guess we can just rationalize it with results-oriented logic like a moron who hits on 20 when the casino dealer is showing 16, gets a 1 and prides himself on being a master blackjack player for having a positive outcome under poor execution.

    It’s not black and white with Rose. He’s playing ok, not great not awful. The reason we have 7 wins is KP.

    Its called playing team ball not hero ball. I know it is as rare as unicorns and rainbows throughout a superstar driven NBA outside of San Antonio, but its a mentality every starter should have on this offense.

    Did you miss the part where I said Rose needs to be better as a distributor? It also takes time to develop this kind of team ethos. Look at how Cleveland plays offensively now versus how stagnant they were when Lebron, Love and Kyrie first teamed up. When you have 3 high usage scorers, it takes time for them to figure out a working rapport, and no I’m not suggesting that Melo or Rose are equal to Lebron or Kyrie respectively, just that they all have high usages.

    You think it was an accident that our entire bench had a net positive differential in the game while our starting lineup, sans KP, had a negative differential? It wasn’t. You think it was an accident KP’s offensive barrages came when Rose was on the bench with foul trouble and Melo sat down? It was not.

    I’m happy our bench played well last night, because that certainly hasn’t been the case all year. KP has done plenty of scoring with the starters in games too. I’m not sure why that doesn’t count.

    @ 68

    Gloat about what? Rose turned a broken play into a game-icing bucket. People are reading way too much into whether the corners of Phil Jackson’s mouth turned up enough and forgetting that we won the damn game on the back of Derrick Rose taking over down the stretch when an ice-cold Melo and a gassed Porzingis were starting to sputter. And he was part of a defensive effort that kept Lillard and McCollum to a combined 38 points on 35 shots.

    Don’t get me wrong. I love that Rose got the “game-icing bucket” last night. I like to win. I think he made a conscious decision to show “leadership” whatever that means and dominate our effort in the fourth. Maybe KP was gassed. Melo was off, so good for him. I just don’t think “Derrick Rose taking over down the stretch” will ever hit that bucket more than he will miss it, so I don’t want to develop this habit.

    This — @76

    Secondly, you value that last-second shot more than you do the fourteen shot attempts that he took before it. What about the 7 he missed before making that high-profile, memorable shot attempt?

    Also +1 to @103 and @106

    Our backup PG (Jennings) should not have more than twice the assists (11 to 5) as the starting PG on this team (Rose) with less minutes (22 to 26) played for the night. Period. No one here is going to convince me that Rose was so valuable when our best offensive basketball was largely played with him sitting on a bench with foul trouble.

    We won that fourth quarter because the final few minutes represented our best defensive effort of the night, which was anchored by 3 or 4 possessions where KP’s length altered Trailblazer shots in the paint to our benefit.

    I will give Rose is for working real hard on defense to fight through screens throughout the game, but there is some serious overestimation of his offensive value to our victory going on here.

    KP’s usage goes up with Melo and Rose off the floor, but his efficiency plummets

    With Melo, Rose and KP on the floor at the same time:

    Usage
    Melo: 25.8
    Rose: 25.6
    KP: 23.3

    KP efficiency: 62.4

    Melo, no Rose:

    Melo: 30.1
    KP: 25.7
    KP efficiency: 63.8

    No Melo, no Rose

    KP: 27.4
    KP efficiency: 52.9

    @101

    D Rose was a -3 last night how can he be a major reason we won?

    checkmate.

    Not so fast. Rose played the entire 4th qtr with Jennings sidelined. They were tied at the end of 3. So he was +4 for the 4th quarter. He was awesome when they needed him to be.

    Rose, no Melo
    KP usage: 32.3
    KP efficiency: 64.3

    Jennings, no Melo
    KP usage: 28.2
    KP efficency: 57.1

    No Rose, no Melo, Jennings
    KP usage: 28.3
    KP efficiency: 52.7

    “Not so fast. Rose played the entire 4th qtr with Jennings sidelined. They were tied at the end of 3. So he was +4 for the 4th quarter. He was awesome when they needed him to be.”

    He’s trying to be holier-than-thou funny.

    So, KP has been at his best with Rose on the floor over Jennings, with a huge usage increase and the highest TS of any combo at 64.3 %.

    What makes a good team is having players fill roles and gel in those roles for an extended period of time, where there is a baseline consistency on both offense and defense.
    All teams have certain players with warts, and in a total vacuum, they can be condemned for those warts. I believe it is how the coach manages these warts as time goes by, that defines the success of the team. This is what coaches are paid to do, as there is no perfect 15 man roster in the NBA, so they have to work with what they have.
    In D Rose’s case, I believe his contribution to the team because of certain skills he has, far outweighs his warts (not a good shooter, shoots a bit too much, sometimes lacking in BB IQ).
    Can’t we all agree that this team looks more cohesive on offense (even after only 14 games) and that D Rose happens to be the starting PG.

    Oh no… We’re really going to end up maxing Rose this offseason, aren’t we?

    What’s worse: maxing Rose, or the 400-post threads containing go-nowhere arguments over whether he’s worth it?

    Derrick Rose has a pass rate of 29.9 on drives, which is 12th among 19 players that average over 9.0 drives per game, more than Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, Damian Lillard and Giannis Antetokounmpo. He is however 15th in assist rate at just 6.6. Out of that group he also has the 5th lowest turnover rate on drives at 4.4 and is 4th in FG% at 55.1

    Lavor Thx for elaborating on my previous post. The low assist rate is what i was referring to. The disparity between pass and assist rate is pretty easy to explain i think, judging from how often rose jump passes from the hoop all the way back to the 3 pt line as a bailout move. Contrary to what cantstaps took from my post, i don’t think this contradicts my original point (nor yours lavor) which is that while he can help in some ways on offense despite being bad overall, we know those limited instances of helping aren’t accomplished by collapsing and kicking to open guys or anything.

    So, KP has been at his best with Rose on the floor over Jennings, with a huge usage increase and the highest TS of any combo at 64.3 %.

    I’m sorry, but I have it on very good authority that Rose is bad, his play hurts the offense and he is hindering KP’s development, so you might want to re-check those numbers.

    “What’s worse: maxing Rose, or the 400-post threads containing go-nowhere arguments over whether he’s worth it?”

    Hey, what do you know, another strawman from the Jowles side.

    Who the fuck has ever argued in favor of maxing Rose?

    Thx for elaborating on my previous post. The low assist rate is what i was referring to. The disparity between pass and assist rate is pretty easy to explain i think, judging from how often rose jump passes from the hoop all the way back to the 3 pt line as a bailout move. Contrary to what cantstaps took from my post, i don’t think this contradicts my original point (nor yours lavor) which is that while he can help in some ways on offense, it isn’t by collapsing and kicking to open guys or anything.

    I wish there was a way to see what the team’s PPP is on possessions where Rose drives. My feeling is that his penetration, and Jennings’, even when they don’t directly yield points via a shot or assist help to shuffle the defense around and create openings or favorable isolations for others to take advantage of.

    Also, is it just me or does Rose play better in the 2nd half than the 1st?

    What’s worse: maxing Rose, or the 400-post threads containing go-nowhere arguments over whether he’s worth it?

    Be the change you want to see in the world.

    Rose is 10th in the league in secondary assists, and a lot of those drive passes turn into good shots.

    Who the fuck has ever argued in favor of maxing Rose?

    Oh, you know it’ll happen, ruruland. It might not be from you, but once people see his secondary assist numbers and a 50 TS% (better than last year!), it will happen.

    The disparity between pass and assist rate is pretty easy to explain i think, judging from how often rose jump passes from the hoop all the way back to the 3 pt line as a bailout move. Contrary to what cantstaps took from my post, i don’t think this contradicts my original point (nor yours lavor) which is that while he can help in some ways on offense despite being bad overall, we know those limited instances of helping aren’t accomplished by collapsing and kicking to open guys or anything.

    Derrick Rose is 10th in the league in secondary assists (i.e. hockey assists). Rose driving, collapsing the defense and kicking it out to someone who it turn swings it to the open-er man doesn’t show up as an assist but the basket still counts.

    @124

    My feeling is that his penetration, and Jennings’, even when they don’t directly yield points via a shot or assist help to shuffle the defense around and create openings or favorable isolations for others to take advantage of.

    my eye says the same thing. that’s why it is (or at least “seems”) so different from last year’s endless slow passing around the perimeter.

    Rose was also on the floor for the entirety of KP’s scoring stretch in the 4th quarter.

    Oh, you know it’ll happen, ruruland. It might not be from you, but once people see his secondary assist numbers and a 50 TS% (better than last year!), it will happen.

    So have we abandoned “Derrick Rose is not a scoring threat” in favor of “let’s get mad about my baseless assumption that Derrick Rose is getting maxed by the Knicks?” I’m confused. I thought pointzzz = max contract, but Derrick Rose isn’t even a scoring threat, so how come max contract? I guess we can file that one in the same place as “Derrick Rose hurts the offense, even though the offense is objectively better with Derrick Rose on the floor.”

    This is unsubstantiated but now that KP is on a tear I imagine his efficiency with Jennings will spike, given that he plays with the bench unit.

    He had a few stinkers of games that probably skewed his with bench lineup numbers

    I wonder where does Jennings rank in Secondary Assist rate? And who is ahead of Rose on that List?

    And on top of those secondary assists, the whole idea of a point guard breaking down the defense is to force them to defend against the drive down the lane. In order to do that, he has to be viewed as a scoring threat.

    And for you statheads, his TS% is currently at 50.1%. Watch it go up from here. I expect him to end up around 53%. His Ast% is at 24.2% and I expect it to climb above 30% by the end of the season.

    What I’m saying is that his preseason is just about ending. The real Derrick Rose will emerge soon.

    This is undoubtedly the debate that will rage on for the whole season. D Rose is terrible vs D Rose isn’t that bad.

    What I don’t see is the “DRose should be maxed” debate. I don’t think anyone here really thinks this is a thing…

    who is ahead of Rose on that List?

    Conley, Collison, Curry, Lillard, Draymond Green, Kemba Walker, Lowry and Rubio.

    (MCW and Greivis Vasquez are technically ahead of him too, but their numbers are from a sample of two games).

    Rose is right at his career high in percentage of shots at the rim. His average shot distance is the lowest of his career (9.3) feet.

    He’s finishing at the rim at the second best mark of his career (.595).

    His usage is also second lowest of his career.

    But Rose is over .100 points below his career average in jump shots between 10 feet and the 3-point line.

    If Rose were simply shooting his career average from 10-23 feet, his TS would rise to .537.

    Watching our center rotation the past 2 games has me dreaming of an alternate reality where we have the Noah contract to a wing player instead…

    I would’ve happily given that deal to Evan Turner or Baze, despite the fact that neither of them has been lighting it up this year.

    Oh, and another thing. Did you all notice that we’re 1 game out of 1st? Ahead of us are BOS and TOR (both 8-6) but we played them away before the team started to gel. I can’t wait to face them again. I’m not just hoping that the Knicks make the playoffs. I’m hoping to win the Atlantic and get a 3-seed! It’s not out of the question.

    After a loss, “Rose sucks”.

    After a win, “Rose sucks”.

    This is really tiresome…

    Winning the division would be awesome!
    Both BOS and TOR have our number, though, so beating both teams out of first place still seems like a reach.

    And on top of those secondary assists, the whole idea of a point guard breaking down the defense is to force them to defend against the drive down the lane. In order to do that, he has to be viewed as a scoring threat.

    You mean when Chris Duhon used to do his dribbling towards the basket that wasn’t happening? Remember those days. The game threads would be “Duhon dribbling to nowhere …”

    I also wanted to mention that the secondary assist is form what I hear commented on and read that the defense can recover on the first pass but it is the second (or extra) pass that breaks it down.

    You mean when Chris Duhon used to do his dribbling towards the basket that wasn’t happening? Remember those days. The game threads would be “Duhon dribbling to nowhere …”

    No, see, Chris Duhon had a .543 TS in his Knicks career, therefore he was a “scoring threat” and helped the offense. Derrick Rose has a .500 TS, therefore not a scoring threat and hurts the offense. Advanced statistics! So easy!

    Every player in the NBA is a “scoring threat”. That term has no meaning. Rose is a very inefficient scorer at this point in his career. That’s what the “advanced stats” say, therefor it’d probably be better to give his shots to other, more efficient, scorers. But like ruru said, his usage is near his career low right now, so the knicks aren’t using him in too bad of a way.

    beating both teams out of first place still seems like a reach.

    Circle Xmas for Boston and Feb 27th for Toronto on your calendar. Those are our first home games against them.

    We end the season, in April, with 5 out of 6 games at home and two of those are against the Celtics and Raptors (also home games vs CHI, WAS and PHI; with 1 away game @MEM). Wouldn’t it be nice if the conference was up for grabs then?

    I had a dream last night that the Knicks won an exciting game vs. Portland. The Knicks won, and it was a fun game to watch. Even D Rose, a player that I don’t like, had a solid game and made a game-icing shot. I shouted out loud in joy when Kuz hit a 3 late and Rose hit the icer because I’m happy when my team wins.

    But then I woke up, went to work for awhile, and then read this blog. Crap, I guess the Knicks lost last night…it was all just a dream….
    🙂

    “Every player in the NBA is a “scoring threat”. That term has no meaning”

    Every player is defended as if they are an equal scoring threat to the other 4 players on the floor. #basketballfacts

    Every player is defended as if they are an equal scoring threat to the other 4 players on the floor.

    How in the world did you get that from what I said? And using hashtags here is idiotic.

    Every player in the NBA is a scoring threat, ergo Tyson Chandler is a scoring threat, Stephen Curry is a scoring threat.

    You said the term is meaningless.

    I mean, I might be a “scoring threat” in the NBA if given the ball under the hoop with nobody within 20 feet of me. I’d at least give myself a 50% chance of scoring.

    Every player in the NBA is a “scoring threat”. That term has no meaning.

    Preach it to the anti-Rose dead enders, if that’s what you believe. The bottom line is that Derrick Rose’s TS% is not worth agonizing over because his net effect on our offensive production is demonstrably positive. Our offense is more than 12 pts/100 possessions better when Rose is on the floor. KP’s scoring efficiency is at its highest when Rose is on the floor.

    As a team the Knicks offensive efficiency has gone from 104.6 (24th in the league) last year to 106.8 (12th), despite the following changes to our starting line-up:

    Calderon (.571 TS) –> Rose (.500)
    Afflalo (.531 TS) –> Lee (.491)
    Lopez (.571 TS) –> Noah (.438)

    It hurts the brains of the individual efficiency dead-enders to concede (or even contemplate) that TS is not the be-all, end-all. That in the case of a Rose, a big, strong, fast guard who can push the ball up the floor, attack the defense before it sets up, beat his own man off the dribble and force defensive rotations that free up open shooters (even if the kick out doesn’t go directly from Rose –> shooter) can make an offense better even if his personal scoring efficiency is substandard.

    Kristaps Porzingis and Carmelo Anthony, the only two remaining starters (and the only two members of the starting line-up scoring more efficiently than last season) have both heaped praise on Rose and credited him and Jennings with opening up the offense with their aggressive play style. Maybe, just MAYBE, those guys know what they’re talking about?

    Instead of ambiguous, imprecise terminology like “scoring threat”, can we please use metrics like scoring efficiency, usage, volume, etc. to determine if someone is a *good* scorer–one who you should let shoot the shots more often than not, other things being equal–rather than a “scoring threat”

    Building off that, of course we can get more granular with our shooting statistics, especially with the advent of SportVU, but it is incontrovertible that the *current* Rose–not the regression to some kind of Frankenstein of pre-injury and post-injury Rosean mean–is not someone who should be taking shots more often that not, whatever other benefits his dribble drive penetration gives us.

    Whether or not defenses collapse to defend him is less useful to know than his TS and his AST% in determining just how useful his dribble drive penetration is, even if the former is obvious to the eye and explanatory for the advanced stats we currently manipulate.

    “I mean, I might be a “scoring threat” in the NBA if given the ball under the hoop with nobody withing 20 feet of me. I’d at least give myself a 50% chance of scoring.”

    Who is being threatened? The defense, right?

    Doesn’t the defense alter how they defend opponents based on the level of threat they present?

    Instead of ambiguous, imprecise terminology like “scoring threat”, can we please use metrics like scoring efficiency, usage, volume, etc. to determine if someone is a *good* scorer–one who you should let shoot the shots more often than not, other things being equal–rather than a “scoring threat”

    Because viewing the game solely through that particularly limited lexicon leads to the kind of paradoxes we’re talking about now regarding the Knicks offense.

    I mean, I might be a “scoring threat” in the NBA if given the ball under the hoop with nobody withing 20 feet of me. I’d at least give myself a 50% chance of scoring.

    Why even expend the energy to type out this non-thought and hit publish? Do you genuinely believe that someone like Chris Duhon and Derrick Rose are equivalent threats to score in any meaningful sense? Do you think teams defend them the same way? Why do teams send help when some players penetrate and not when others do? Why are defenders sometimes coached to cheat off their perimeter assignments and sometimes not? Why are some players subject to double teams and some are not?

    “What defines the level of threat they present, if not TS% or AST%?”

    Because those two metrics fail to fully capture what happens on the court.

    “So eye test if best. Because that has been proven again and again with this franchise.”

    Shocking. Another strawman.

    Penetration causes defenders to react and leave their man. Movement is what creates open opportunities on offense.

    What paradox? Rose shouldn’t be shooting except at the rim. He causes defenses to collapse and the benefits of that are difficult to quantify, but it would have to be pretty significant to overcome his inefficiency and proneness to turnovers coupled with his relatively low assist numbers. The only way you can say that he benefits the offense is by adverting to eye test phenomena and that’s approaching question begging unless you come up with a principled reason to treat qualitative eye testing with as much subjective credence as quantified numbers. So give me one, because stats beat out eye test the vast majority of the time in predicting player productivity–and the stats on offer are the smallest samples to be found in this already miniature theater that is the first 15 games of the 2016-2017 NBA season

    it is incontrovertible

    Why? “Incontrovertible” just means “counter to my accepted dogma.” Rose’s TS is below average but the Knicks offense is much better when he runs it and our other high-volume scorers are more effient when he is on the floor. Do Carmelo and Kristaps have an unlimited ability to increase their usage to absorb the shots that you feel Rose should not be taking, while maintaining their own TS? Or should Rose be passing instead to Courtney Lee (.491 TS) or Joakim Noah (.438)?

    “Then why doesn’t Rose have more assists?”

    Because assists don’t always come off the initial pass.

    He causes defenses to collapse and the benefits of that are difficult to quantify, but it would have to be pretty significant to overcome his inefficiency and proneness to turnovers coupled with his relatively low assist numbers. The only way you can say that he benefits the offense is by adverting to eye test phenomena and that’s approaching question begging unless you come up with a principled reason to treat qualitative eye testing with as much subjective credence as quantified numbers. So give me one.

    Knicks ORtg with Rose on the floor: 110.8
    Knicks ORtg with Rose off the floor: 98.5

    Knicks eFG with Rose on the floor: .517
    Knicks eFG with Rose off the floor: .461

    Well if Rose collapses defenses as much as you and others would like to believe, passing to an open or slightly contested Courtney Lee is certainly the opportunity he should be taking.

    Also the other things being equal operator is a key phrase in that statement. Of course Rose should take shots at the rim, but when we talk about whether or not someone should be taking shots and how they should be distributed amongst five players, the rule is relatively simple: the most efficient players should be getting the most shot attempts, ignoring edge cases like Tyson Chandler, DJ, etc.

    Then why credit Rose and not the guy who actually made the right pass that led to the score?

    Because “the right pass” wouldn’t have been available if the defense had not had to scramble to rotate and contain penetration in the first place. How is this so difficult to understand? Do you not recall watching Jose Calderon aimlessly swing the ball around the three point line while nobody on the other team had to move?

    On/off numbers are notoriously noisy, never mind the fact that we’re in a 15 game sample with a new coach tinkering with all kinds of different lineups.

    They’re not particularly useful until you’re 80 games in.

    Because “the right pass” wouldn’t have been available if the defense had not had to scramble to rotate and contain penetration in the first place.

    So now we are finally getting something we can quantify. What percentage of shots are open after the second pass out of a Rose penetration? Is that higher than percentage of assisted shots taken without Rose penetration?

    Of course Rose should take shots at the rim, but when we talk about whether or not someone should be taking shots and how they should be distributed amongst five players, the rule is relatively simple: the most efficient players should be getting the most shot attempts, ignoring edge cases like Tyson Chandler, DJ, etc.

    That’s not really how a fluid team sport operates in reality. There is a huge opportunity cost to playing someone like Jose Calderon, who never took anything but open, high-efficiency attempts but also never penetrated, never forced a rotation or otherwise made the defense actually work. You see his effiency but there’s no way to quantify the *lack* of quality shots created for the team as a whole. The “TS is low, he is bad, end of story crowd” is missing the forest for the trees. Would it be cool if Derrick Rose had a .580 TS? No shit. That would make him one of the best players in the NBA and would make last summer’s trade the heist of the century. AS IT STANDS, Rose has been a major boon to the offense even considering his TS%. That’s what people need to acknowledge and stop treating his personal scoring efficiency as disqualifying.

    What’s worse: maxing Rose, or the 400-post threads containing go-nowhere arguments over whether he’s worth it?

    Definitely maxing Rose

    So now we are finally getting something we can quantify. What percentage of shots are open after the second pass out of a Rose penetration? Is that higher than percentage of assisted shots taken without Rose penetration?

    There’s no way I can spit out a number to answer this question, and you know it, but considering that Rose is top-10 in hockey assists and the Knicks offense is 12.5 pts/100 better when he pays, I’m going to venture an educated guess that the answer is yes, and also that it doesn’t really matter. What if it takes two swing passes? Does the fact that Rose catalyzed the reaction not matter?

    It’s so bizarre to me that people are taking an objectively good result (Knicks offense is much better with Rose on the floor and much better overall than last year, KP is much more efficient playing with Rose, etc.) and then working backwards to find something, anything about the process that disqualifies Rose’s contribution.

    There’s no way I can spit out a number to answer this question, and you know it

    And that’s exactly why we are arguing. You are saying, “Trust me, Rose is really helping this offense.” and we are saying, “His superficial numbers aren’t at all good, so prove it.” That is what every friggin argument that ever happens on this blog is. There are several of us that does not trust your eye test, and you don’t trust our numbers. Eye test is highly subjective, numbers are not. Find some numbers that prove your point and we’ll all be happy.

    Well, we’re also looking at his poor AST% and high TOV%.

    Are you being intentionally dense? Let me rephrase: AS IT STANDS, Rose has been a major boon to the offense even considering his [pick whatever individual metric you want]. That’s what people need to acknowledge and stop treating his personal [whatever–TS%, AST%, TO%, all of the above] as disqualifying.

    The Knicks offense is better than last year, by a lot, better with Rose on the floor BY A LOT, and our top guns are shooting better when he’s on the court, too. You guys are literally taking a win, and going back to the tape to try to find out why we lost. It’s ridiculous.

    Unless you control for all the changes on the court (both sides of the ball), then on/off stats can become kind of meaningless. And of course, when you do control for all those changes, the sample sizes become so small they become almost meaningless. That’s why so many people still try to model and add to the available boxscore stats. Rose may have a positive impact on offense for the other players, but I doubt it’s more significant that Jennings, assuming we could measure it properly (which imo we can’t).

    You are saying, “Trust me, Rose is really helping this offense.” and we are saying, “His superficial numbers aren’t at all good, so prove it.”

    No. I am not saying “trust me.” It’s getting really tiresome repeatedly typing out the numbers that QUANTIFY how much better our offense performs with Rose on the court and then having you say “well prove it.”

    Unless you control for all the changes on the court (both sides of the ball), then on/off stats can become kind of meaningless.

    Unless you control for all the changes on the court, then TS% can become kind of meaningless.

    See, I can do it too!

    Oh wait, I’m arguing with the “everyone is a scoring threat” crowd who think that if anything, Derrick Rose is detriment to our offense relative to Jose Calderon.

    You people are standing outside getting soaked while looking up weather.com on your phone to find out if it’s raining. Get a clue.

    TS% is far more stable a metric than on/off numbers–it usually stays within a pretty well-bounded range across all lineups given a sufficient sample. TS% is far more meaningful and credentialed than on/off numbers.

    Unless you control for all the changes on the court, then TS% can become kind of meaningless.

    See, I can do it too!

    I absolutely agree when it comes to TS% also, but on/off stats and +/- are notoriously bad without controls and it’s not like Rose’s poor TS% has been disadvantaged by playing with poor lineups. He’s often playing with 2 of the best scorers in the NBA.

    So Jose Calderon is better than Derrick Rose? Is that the determination based on TS%?

    Did you guys see those two reverse layups that Rose made last night? They were really amazingly athletic. The league MVP is back.

    I was fairly anti-Rose coming into the season, but this dogmatism I am reading is getting really old. There must be a happy medium between Wally World view on him and his TS sux, his assist % is not so high ergo he is {insert negative adjective or phrase].

    Isn’t a little bit about this board to learn about basketball and maybe nudge our notions?

    Rose has played 21 of 31 MPG with Porzingis and Melo also playing. The good on/off point differential for Rose is more likely due to the fact he plays with good players, and our bench is thin as hell. Probably worth digging into more, but on/off numbers are very noisy with small samples this early on.

    So Jose Calderon is better than Derrick Rose? Is that the determination based on TS%?

    No.

    Calderon is limited in many ways (not even including being worse on defense), but it does suggest the gap may not be as large as reputations if you have 2 scorers like Melo and KP on the court and don’t really need a scoring PG.

    21 year old Damien Inglis with another double-double for Westchester.

    How has Randle played? I know Ron has mostly been with the big club.

    Randle is missing more shots than he’s making but he is getting his points on higher usage. He plays with triangularity but is weak on defense, where he gets caught behind every pick. His assists have been relatively low so far. His 3 point shot is excellent though and with that he definitely spreads the defense.

    This team shoulda just kept RoLo, made Jennings the starting PG and spent the Derrick Rose money on other stuff.

    With Rose, Willy, Holiday, Jennings and Kuz all rolling into form and Rambis helping our defense this is a scary team for sure.

    The Knicks are playing good basketball at home. Love Rose or hate him, he’s been an important part of the winning. He’s an uptempo player and that rubs off on the rest of the team. Same with Jennings.

    I don’t think it’s fair to say that Rose’s good on-off numbers are due to Porzingis and Melo, any more than it is fair to say that Melo and Porzingis are playing well because of Rose. The bottom line is that they are playing pretty well together, and that we are winning games that good teams win and losing games that good (but not very good or great) teams lose. We’re playing a faster paced brand of basketball with lots of PnR and very little strict triangle. It’s fun to watch, more fun than last year’s plodding team that had essentially the same record at this point.

    The bench is looking promising as well. Hornacek is doing an excellent job of establishing a bench mob identity and mentality. It’s a young, hungry, all arms and legs, run and gun unit with potential to grow. Putting Kuz, Holiday, Jennings and/or Ndour (clever alliteration, no?) out there and turning them loose is exciting, even though they will make lots of mistakes. They are very disruptive on the perimeter and deadly on the break. It looks like Hornacek will rotate KP out first and then bring him in with the second unit, either going big with WHG or small with KP at the 5. Either way, they have potential. I can even see Sasha and Lance spotting in with these guys. As things gel, I can see Horny turning up the pace even more and trying to attack, attack, attack on D.

    Then in crunch time, it’s nice to have 3 guys who can break down a defense, even though none of the 3 are as great at it as, say, James Harden. Hornacek has mixed and matched at the other 2 spots, e.g. playing Kuz last night and Holiday vs. Dallas.

    Of all the bright spots so far, Hornacek’s coaching is maybe the top one.

    I’m with Z-Man insofar as I’m just happy to watch decent, uptempo basketball being played, even if I think Rose isn’t very good.

    And yes, Hornacek seems to be doing a good job out there just for the fact that he’s barely given Sasha any burn

    This team shoulda just kept RoLo, made Jennings the starting PG and spent the Derrick Rose money on other stuff.

    Damn. Great idea

    Of all the bright spots so far, Hornacek’s coaching is maybe the top one.

    I felt before the season that Horns would be worth another 4-5 wins beyond what Fish would have achieved with the same roster. He’s a pretty good coach. He’s obviously still experimenting, but is clearly willing to try new things while not making constant wholesale (disruptive) changes. (Hello Larry Brown!)

    As for Rose, it’s hard to say that he’s a net negative, despite what the individual numbers may indicate. The speed at which he plays does have a positive effect on the offense, and that can’t be measured…except by noisy metrics like on/off +/-. And we still haven’t played 20 games yet, so can’t we just let this argument go for now?

    I will say I wanted to throw something at the TV when he passed up a wide open Kuz on that one possession near the end of the game. That was the right pass to make, instead of hero ball. As Phil may have been thinking, because it went in doesn’t mean it’s the right play.

    That said, let’s see if he’s making that play and trusting his teammates more in January. This shit doesn’t happen overnight.

    @180-

    That is what every friggin argument that ever happens on this blog is. …

    This is the truest metric I’ve seen here. I’m a stat head but I believe they need to be looked at in context. No GM goes into the NBA draft with a spreadsheet of stats and no scouting reports. Stats are an accurate representation of the past but they are not perfect predictors of the future. Rose is a player that has been hurt an awful lot over the past few years and the stats say that his play has diminished severely in that time. The stats don’t say that he had double vision most of last season and don’t account for the adjustment called healing.

    What about his recovery from knee surgery? I went and did a search and found this list of 10 players that came back from Rose-type injuries http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1177651-10-nba-players-that-suffered-torn-acls-and-recovered-better-than-ever/ (It’s interesting that the article refers to the Rose injury). Another article which discusses Rose’s injury, written by a doctor, http://www.athletico.com/2012/06/07/acl-injuries-and-return-to-high-level-basketball/ says this: “As the athlete regains the speed and explosiveness he or she is known for, they will gradually be re-introduced into team drills and play. Most athletes are able to work back into all activities between 5 to 8 months after surgery. Even though the athlete returns to team practices and play, the rehab is still not complete. As Dr. Cole stated, it usually takes 8 to 12 months to return to a high level of competition and probably more to get back to the level to which an athlete is accustomed.”

    This is why the eye test is as important as raw stats. Stats don’t factor in many important factors like health (physical and mental), chemistry, system, maturity, family life, etc. You need to use both statistics and the eye test to evaluate a player. Neither are the be-all-end-all on their own.

    “Every player in the NBA is a scoring threat.”

    That is such a ridiculous statement. Jared Jeffries was not a scoring threat, unless you mean “every player in the NBA won’t blow a wide open lay up.” Joakim Noah doesn’t even look to shoot because he knows he’s not a scoring threat and he refuses to play himself while wasting a possession.

    I think everybody here is smart enough to understand what people mean when they say “Derrick Rose is a scoring threat.” The disagreement should be in how valuable his ability to penetrate a defense and his ability to collapse a defense. Trying to marginalize his impact by saying “everybody is a scoring threat” is weak, bro.

    Calderon is limited in many ways (not even including being worse on defense), but it does suggest the gap may not be as large as reputations if you have 2 scorers like Melo and KP on the court and don’t really need a scoring PG.

    Jeez, if only we could have paired Jose Calderon with a two scorers like Melo and Porzingis to see what the results would be like… oh wait. We did. And it sucked. And they play better much without Calderon, and with low TS%, low AST% suck vortex Derrick Rose instead. Crazy!

    1) Porzingis has rookie season
    2) Jackson brings in Rose, who has been terrible for two seasons
    3) Porzingis improves his scoring in his first fifteen games of his sophomore year
    4) Rose continues to be an awful scorer and passer

    ergo

    Rose is responsible for Porzingis’s stats because I think Rose is good at basketball

    208,

    Fair. There’s no reason for anybody to assume KP’s meteoric ascension as a scorer has anything to do with Derrick Rose. Young players get better and that’s something people should consider. Derrick Rose isn’t Steve Nash or Chris Paul.

    209,

    100% accurate, but teams still seem to be scared and it works in our favor. They don’t give Derrick Rose the Rondo treatment, and he’s still one of the most athletic point guards in the game. He’s likely to suck until he’s a 6th man, and by that point hopefully we’ll be employing George Hill or Jrue Holiday.

    Again I don’t get all this Calderon hate when we were pretty much operating at an athletic disadvantage at every position last year. No one could penetrate. And as far as the backcourt goes, if we had even a half decent 2 guard with a hint of athleticism and effort on the defensive end, Calderon would’ve looked fine. The combination of Afflalo and Calderon, neither of whom drove at all, was a match made in hell and made both of them look worse–except Afflalo really is that bad, and Jose is merely mediocre.

    He was just a convenient scapegoat for what was a team wide problem

    Was Carmelo a rookie last year too?

    If we’re going to go after people’s arguments for being reductive or illogical how about we start with “Derrick Rose has a low TS, ergo he is bad and the offense suffers because of his presence”*

    *just pay no attention to our team’s substantial improvement on offense and superlative performance when he’s on the court

    Derrick Rose is a scoring threat.

    The problem is that it’s kind of an empty threat.

    Talk about empty. This is the kind of pithy retort that means nothing and doesn’t advance the conversation at all. Try harder. If Derrick Rose is an empty threat, why do teams scramble their defense to collapse into the paint when he drives? Why are the Knicks scoring 112 pts per 100 when he’s on the court?

    Let me ask the question another way:

    If Derrick Rose continues to play like he has and posts a season line to the tune of a .028 WS/48 and a -3.7 BPM, would you still consider him a good player? A valuable one to the Knicks? If yes, why? If it’s because the team is winning and looks good with him on the floor, what if the Knicks won 20 games this season? Would Rose be considered a better or worse player contingent on his team’s performance?

    Mo Speights played for the warriors last year. Mo Speights. And the Warriors looked great with him on the floor! I’m sure if you looked at their point differential vis a vis the rest of the league while Speights was on the floor it would look pretty good! They were crazy to let Mo speights go with his floor stretching abilities! Someone had to take those shots, right?

    @ 211 – Calderon was a scapegoat but you’re right it wasn’t all him. That’s why I look at our total guard contributions – Rose, Lee, Jennings, Holiday is way better than Calderon, Affalo, Gallo and Grant/Sasha. Heck we still have Sasha and haven’t even really had to use him at all this season yet. How nice is that?

    I mean just type those two sets of 4 names out and ask how this is even a discussion. When its the off season and we talk about resigning/maxing Rose then we can look at the numbers bc at that point we’re not trying to upgrade from last season to this season. We’ll be trying to upgrade from this season to the next season. That’s what Phil did. He saw that the backcourt was a mess, knew KP would hopefully improve and sacrificed ROLO and Grant (instead of say a first round pick) to get Derrick Rose and Holiday (plus a second round pick). He then went after Noah, which looks bad RIGHT NOW but man its way too early to say that’s for sure a bad deal.

    So we upgrade our guards considerably and its having an effect on the team. That’s pretty obvious. We can not blame Jose if we want to be nice but we can surely blame Jose, Affalo, Grant/Sasha and Gallo, right?

    Are there any fake trades we could come up with to avoid talking about Derrick Rose? We’re gonna be re-litigating this shit until the end of time

    Derrick Rose is a player that Jowles, JK47, Owen, all the resident wet blankets declared to be without reservation the worst starting PG in the NBA, a player so irrideemably awful that he could be nothing more than a millstone around the team’s neck and the best thing he could do for the team is injure himself.

    And yet. Despite also filling out the rest of the starting lineup with players substantially less efficient than their predecessors, the Knicks offense has shot up from 24th in the NBA to 12th. Their offensive efficiency with the incontrovertibly terrible Derrick Rose on the court would easily be the league’s best. They are averaging quadruple the number of drives to the basket as last year. The team’s two top scorers have shown a pronounced increase in scoring efficiency and they *explicitly* credit the play style of Rose and other low TS PG Jennings with creating more, higher quality looks at the basket.

    And yet! Not only do wet blankets and co have absolutely no explanation for how this is happening, they categorically deny that Rose is anything other than the humanoid train wreck they predicted in advance or acknowledge the possibility that he could deserve credit for any of these improvements. His TS and AST% are below average *ergo he must be bad.* That is, apparently, all there is to it!

    Religious fundamentalists exhibit extreme adherence to simple doctrine as a retreat from the complexities of the real world. I feel so bad for some of you, who cling to the blunt instruments of TS% rather than face the limits of your own knowledge of the game. Pathetic. And if any of you think it’s not obvious that some of this reflexive denial of any merit to Rose is motivated by personal animus towards him, well, you’re kidding yourselves. The worst part is, this team is going to keep getting better and you’ll hate every minute of it. Sorry 🙁

    Their offensive efficiency with the incontrovertibly terrible Derrick Rose on the court would easily be the league’s best

    Wrong, incontrovertably. Insanely wrong. I blame ruru for spreading this heresy. Look at, for example, Houston’s offense with James Harden, an actual very good basketball man, and compare to the Knicks offense with Derrick Rose

    The Knicks offense operates at an elite level with Rose on the floor.

    112 ORTG is superb. Not the best, not an anomously great, but easily in the top 10-15th percentile of lineups, given that prorated it would be a top 5 team offense rating

    the reason TS is being harped on for rose is because he shoots… alot.. the other measure to go off is his passing… and his ast/to ratio isn’t that great… it’s quite bad for a pg actually…. if you isolate for his actual production… he’s bad…. there’s no getting around that…. his ws48 is .026 which is right around the avg between his previous 116 games…

    and so you’re left with the case that rose is making his teammates better…. despite his own production… and that relies on +/- numbers which are pretty unreliable even with a full season’s worth of data…

    can anyone guess what our best 3man lineup is? it includes kp… and melo.. and also… justin holiday..

    derrick rose pops up at #3 with lee and melo but #2 is kp, holiday and jennings….

    whatever the case may be… derrick rose is bad… he has some positive contributions and he certainly does things different than calderon… but that doesn’t mean he isn’t a huge drag on the offense…

    James Harden is better than Derrick Rose. That doesn’t mean Rose isn’t helping the Knicks be better offensively compared to the complete trash that was Calderon at starting point.

    Can we improve at that position after this season? Absolutely, but RoseJennings is an improvement at the spot compared to what we were trotting out there last year.

    Again I don’t get all this Calderon hate when we were pretty much operating at an athletic disadvantage at every position last year. No one could penetrate. And as far as the backcourt goes, if we had even a half decent 2 guard with a hint of athleticism and effort on the defensive end, Calderon would’ve looked fine.

    Please. Calderon was fucking hot garbage as a starter. If your point guard can’t penetrate or create for anybody that leaves the task up to somebody else. How many shooting guards in the league can adequately serve as a functional point guard to cover up for Calderon’s complete inability to perform the duties of a starting PG? Very few and the Knicks had no ability to acquire one of them.

    It does not matter how good of a defensive shooting guard we’d put next to Calderon either. He’s a complete negative on that side of the floor who teams constantly exploited regardless of whether we tried to hide him on their shittiest offensive player. Even if we had had an SG capable of guarding the better of the 2 opposing guards, Calderon would have had to guard the other one, a task he was completely unsuited for.

    Calderon probably can serve somewhat adequately as a bench guard somewhere, but he wasn’t a scapegoat. The dude was totally washed and acquiring him to address the starting point guard situation was Phil’s worst move in his tenure, one which he spent 2 years trying to get off the Knicks’ cap sheet. The fact is not one team bit despite him being very available for nothing and ultimately CHI needed to attach 2 second round picks just to move him to LAL.

    It would rank second to the Warriors. So 5th percentile of all lineups

    Please stop doing this

    bruh if you’re gonna say that the Knicks’ lineup with Rose would be 2nd to the Warriors, you should make caveats for all of the other teams, since they don’t get to have their best lineups on the floor 48 minutes either

    the opportunity cost of signing Derrick Rose means that you can’t sign other players who can also drive to the hoop and brick floaters and layups like it’s going out of style

    I wish we could post GiFs here. Rose will be gone next year more likely than not. Sooo let’s just get these Ws ok

    this is the best championship-caliber 7-7 team ever assembled

    Literally not one person thinks this. Optimism about the team or Rose’s performance doesn’t mean people are delusional and think we’re on the cusp of a championship.

    Nah bro I’m delusional. I think the Knicks will be around 50 wins like last year’s Celtics, Hawks, Heat, and Hornets were.

    I can buy the argument that his contribution is more positive than his numbers would indicate, but how much more positive? I think teams collapse on Rose because when he gets to actual rim he’s very effective, but if you manage to get a body in his path he either opts for a floater or kicks out a jump pass. The floater is really unreliable, and the jump pass attempts result in TOs as often as assists. When he’s on it works well enough like last night’s solid but not great performance, but when he’s off it’s a huge fucking drag. Doesn’t seem like he adjusts his game much for how well he’s hitting. Doesn’t seem like it works in game very consistently. He’s been better than I expected for sure, but I was expecting complete ass. But he’s way way off of his MVP numbers and he looks mediocre, as likely to put up an off target floater or turn the ball over on a drive as he is to do something leading to a score.

    Welcome to Knickerblogger, this is our most unbridled optimist, Mr. The Knicks Should Tank.

    that fake superstar Kevin Love, I’d never trade a player who can score 37 points in a single quarter for a scrub like that

    Kevin Love lost too much weight. Let that be a lesson to us all on Thanksgiving Eve.

    I am still waiting 20 games to opine on Rose. And it’s strangely liberating.

    Meanwhile, this Spurs Charlotte game is pretty good. I think Charlotte will be a good test.

    NEW TOPIC:

    If the 2015 draft were held today, would Hernangomez be in the Top 15?

    I think maybe. It occurred to me because I was looking up Kaminsky, who doesn’t appear to have been the dud people expected, and seems an OK pick for where he was taken. Obviously some better players went after him, but for #9 Kaminsky wasn’t a whiff. There ARE clearly already some whiffs, though, so…what do people think? After KAT, KP, and probably D’Angelo stay at the top, Okafor, Hezonja, Mudiay, Johnson obviously fall. Myles Turner, Hollis-Jefferson obviously move up. Winslow, WCS, Kaminsky probably hold around where they went. But seems to me that WillyBilly is maybe the best after those guys – hard to be sure, since it’s his first season, and the other guys are in their second. But that only makes it seem more likely that he’d be Top 15 today, maybe even Top 10.

    i would probably take richaun holmes… but wily is definitely in the discussion… he’s a couple years older than most of the lottery guys tho so you should account for that…

    @233
    You forgot Djokic, who is absolute Draymond Green type steal for the Nuggets in 2nd round. Also, don’t forget Cauley-Stein, who has been buried.

    That stiff Jose Calderon has all 7 points for the Lakers tonight. What a dud that guy is. Even when he makes a shot, he misses it.

    New Orleans looks 180 degrees different than they did opening day. I would put them on par with the Knicks in terms if positive turn around. Frazier, Holiday and Moore are doing a really nice job of supporting Davis. Minnesota, on the other hand, plays some really crappy defense and defer way too much to Wiggins.

    Aaron Gordon does not seem to be taking the step up everyone thought he would

    I thought that their offseason moves were practically designed (not intentionally, I assume) to screw him over.

    @249 – yeah, but most people, including on this board, predicted bust, because old, slow, and white. Not that he has the makings of greatness, but a solid rotation player at 9 is a good pick.

    @243 – I mentioned WCS (who would have been my pick instead of Porzingis – too burned by the Weis pick to have had the guts to pick KP). But I didn’t forget about Jokic – he was drafted in 2014. Awesome second round steal, though.

    Richaun Holmes – good call. Definitely first round, probably top 15. So at least the Sixers got a good player in that draft – it just wasn’t the guy they took at #3.

    Wiggins doesn’t impress me.

    He totally reminds me of those mid-90s fake-Jordans like Jerry Stackhouse. A lot of players honestly remind me of mid-90s Jerry Stackhouse. The funny thing is that Stackhouse later in his career became a really efficient player.

    This Warriors game plays like a highlight reel. Unbelievable offense from that team.

    He totally reminds me of those mid-90s fake-Jordans like Jerry Stackhouse. A lot of players honestly remind me of mid-90s Jerry Stackhouse. The funny thing is that Stackhouse later in his career became a really efficient player.

    Good call. And he’s not even like the good end of that spectrum like Michael Finley.

    davis absolutely destroyed towns this game…

    It was a mauling. But in fairness to KAT, he’s also being held back by this wack offense Thibedeau is running where he’s being stationed at the perimeter as some sort of stretch forward to open lanes for that ball hog Andrew Wiggins.

    @rama

    I think Bustell wouldn’t be picked as high as you say, especially if his knee is as bad as it looks.

    I love all the puff pieces about how Thibs had expanded his horizons in his year off to become a more innovative offensive coach. 90% of his playbook seems to be to isolate Wiggins coming off a curl and have Towns stretch the floor from the top of the key.

    90% of his playbook seems to be to isolate Wiggins coming off a curl and have Towns stretch the floor from the top of the key.

    Wow, you pretty much described the entire Wolves offense against the Pelicans.

    Embiid is a monster. What he’s able to do in 20-29 minutes is uncanny. He’s so athletic and powerful.

    Re-draft of the 2015 top-10

    1. KAT
    2. Porzingis
    3. Turner
    4. Booker
    5. Russell
    6. Powell
    7. WCS
    8. Nance Jr.
    9. Richardson
    10. WillyBilly/Dekker

    Wow, you pretty much described the entire Wolves offense against the Pelicans.

    Hahaha. It’s unreal. They don’t leverage anything that Rubio or Lavine bring to the table. Lavine is basically used only as a floor spacing corner shooter.

    Man, you know you never hear about anymore? Mario Hezonja. Some people had him as a surer bet to make an impact in the NBA than KP.

    I low key was hoping the Knicks would take Hezonja because I thought he had the highest ceiling between him, KP, Mudiay, Winslow and WCS. I’d be trying to buy low on him though for sure. He’s been stuck in a totally dysfunctional organization and situation with awkward fitting talent and a front office that has been making bizarre trades for awhile.

    Hahaha. It’s unreal. They don’t leverage anything that Rubio or Lavine bring to the table. Lavine is basically used only as a floor spacing corner shooter.

    All while Kris Dunn is languishing on the bench. They have a serious personnel problem. I would love to take Rubio from the Timberwolves if Brandon isn’t resigning with us next offseason.

    I was never a fan of Dunn as a prospect, but the whole handling of the situation is weird. They also can’t defend anybody, because right now Wiggins, Lavine and Towns either can’t or are completely disinted in playing defense.

    They also can’t defend anybody, because right now Wiggins, Lavine and Towns either can’t or are completely disinted in playing defense.

    I really think Towns is trying, but there is only so much a man can do when Lavine allows his man to blow right by around him because he doesn’t want to get low and move his feet. Wiggins is just disinterested in any aspect of the game that isn’t scoring the ball. With as much as he handles the ball you would think his assist percentages would be higher, its not. Wolves seem like a team full of college stars who don’t want to do any dirty work.

    I’d be trying to buy low on him though for sure. He’s been stuck in a totally dysfunctional organization and situation with awkward fitting talent and a front office that has been making bizarre trades for awhile.

    He was such a beast in Europe. When you look at guys like him you can understand why GMs and head coaches are hesitant to take chances on Euroballers. I don’t know if its a culture shock, differences in the game, or a failure to get a chance to shine but he can’t be as bad as his numbers in Orlando show. I would take a chance on him, granted that he’s willing to be humble and work his way up off the bench.

    The Knicks are about what I expected. The Wolves are surprisingly bad. I thought Thibs would have had them playing D. He must be chewing his face off after every game.

    @275

    I wouldn’t – before the draft everyone talked about his bad attitude. You could make similar criticisms of the Knicks in Staps time here and he hasn’t blinked. If Hezonja can’t rise above, another dysfunctional organization like the Knicks wouldn’t work any better for him.

    He was such a beast in Europe. When you look at guys like him you can understand why GMs and head coaches are hesitant to take chances on Euroballers. I don’t know if its a culture shock, differences in the game, or a failure to get a chance to shine but he can’t be as bad as his numbers in Orlando show. I would take a chance on him, granted that he’s willing to be humble and work his way up off the bench.

    They haven’t had coaches very capable of developing and advancing offensive talent. Skiles and Vogel have never been known for that and I think it’s showed. A lack of playing time, any type of real leadership on the roster and a failure to have a defined role all play their part. Hezonja himself has always been a wild card so the lack of structure and cohesion probably hurts him more than it might another rookie.

    If there was a way to trade for him, I’d love for us to do it. There’s a starting caliber wing in there somewhere.

    @rama

    The sample is still very small on Powell, but he’s shot over 40% from 3, can create a little bit off the bounce, defends at a high level even when undersized and generally seems to know what he’s doing. Also teams around the league are totally desperate for competent wing players, especially ones that can shoot, so I think knowing what they know now, he’d come up real high in the draft. Winslow was drafted as high as he was in the hopes he could develop a perimeter shot.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/V6bEc

    Granted Powell is 3 years older than Winslow, but you can see what I’m saying looking at the numbers across the board. Maybe age still pushes him down the board, but Powell is a solid 3&D guy, as his floor and teams love that.

    @277

    The KP comparison isn’t really fair. Yes, he’s super humble and very adaptable. He’s also been handled very smartly by his brother/agent Janis with a very strong support family system. I really feel there is a difference between playing in Orlando and NYC for the Euros. Considering our team is a virtual European Union of players from Latvia, Lithuania, Spain, Serbia it wouldn’t be a bad idea to include a Croatian JR Smith off the bench.

    Norman Powell looks really good.

    Also I think KP vs. KAT is a 50/50 tossup if KP keeps up his play (he’s had a better season so far than KAT has, imo.) I guess if you put a gun to my head I’d say Towns, but I really am in love with the both of them.

    I also would love to make a play for any of Hezonja, Dunn, or Rubio, and they all seem to be varying levels of available, for the right price. We should seriously consider making some calls.

    Basically, if Kristaps plays as he has lately and Melo is doesn’t fall off the horse and the rest of the rotation plays competently, the Knicks are a 40-45 win team. Of all those ifs, I think Kristaps is the biggest. He’s playing 4 more MPG over last year, and last season, he struggled badly all season in back to backs and then seemed totally out of gas by like the beginning of February. If Kristaps reverts to last year’s Kristaps (who was a solid player, don’t get me wrong), the Knicks will probably win like 33 games.

    Knicks are still 22nd in SRS and as I’ve pointed out before, they’ve had a lot of breaks so far this season.

    The only surprise win was vs. Atlanta. Otherwise, we beat Portland (24th in SRS) at home, Dallas (28th in SRS) at home, Detroit (16th in SRS) at home . If the Knicks were to be entirely average — beating teams that are below average and losing to teams that aren’t, based on our opponents’ SRS, you would expect the Knicks to have gone 4-1 in their last five. Which is what happened. And that doesn’t even factor in the fact that 4 of the 5 games were at home.

    I love all the puff pieces about how Thibs had expanded his horizons in his year off to become a more innovative offensive coach. 90% of his playbook seems to be to isolate Wiggins coming off a curl and have Towns stretch the floor from the top of the key.

    Speaking of annoying shit from the mid-1990s, looking at that Minny roster and saying “The guy we need to build the offense around is Wiggins” is also such a mid-1990s approach. Ugh, I like Thibs a lot in general, but he has been a horrible fit in Minny so far. A lot of stubborn shit.

    The only surprise win was vs. Atlanta. Otherwise, we beat Portland (24th in SRS) at home, Dallas (28th in SRS) at home, Detroit (16th in SRS) at home . If the Knicks were to be entirely average — beating teams that are below average and losing to teams that aren’t, based on our opponents’ SRS, you would expect the Knicks to have gone 4-1 in their last five. Which is what happened. And that doesn’t even factor in the fact that 4 of the 5 games were at home.

    Knicks have also had the 10th highest strength of schedule, which will only go up after 2 games against Charlotte. We also beat a pretty good Chicago team on the road.

    Beating the teams you’re supposed to at home is what lower end playoff teams do.

    Speaking of annoying shit from the mid-1990s, looking at that Minny roster and saying “The guy we need to build the offense around is Wiggins” is also such a mid-1990s approach. Ugh, I like Thibs a lot in general, but he has been a horrible fit in Minny so far. A lot of stubborn shit.

    Yeah, way too early to definitively say anything, especially since with young players they may just not be executing what he wants and their defense almost always sucks. That being said there are things on the offensive side of the ball that are concerning and probably played a part aside from “NO TRIANGLE = PHIL HATES HIM” in the total lack of interest Jax had in him.

    If the 2015 draft were held today, would Hernangomez be in the Top 15?

    I don’t recall who said it, but I remember reading someone say when he was drafted that he “would have been a lottery pick next year”.
    Obviously we give kudos to Phil Jackson and the scouts for that draft.
    KAT was schooled last night. I’m wondering how KP will fare against Davis. That will be a true test.

    The Knicks are better than you guys are giving them credit for because Hornacek’s offense adds value to the team. We shoot a ton of open jumpers and we push the pace. The only guys taking tough shots are our Big USG% 3. As disappointing as Courtney Lee has been since his torrid start, he’s very likely to come back around as he’s shooting open shots. KP and Melo should be around where they are statistically and then Lee and D Rose stand to improve their scoring numbers. This team has loads of talent that in the early part of the year was marred by turnovers and stupid fouls. If we play to our defensive potential (which is top 10 in the league with Noah and KP as our anchors) and our offense improves over the year, this is a really good team. 45 wins should be our floor if everyone can play 70+ games.

    “I don’t recall who said it, but I remember reading someone say when he was drafted that he “would have been a lottery pick next year”.”

    That’d be me. I said it as praise for PJ mitigating the squandering of our 2016 draft pick somewhat. We have not been great at the Eurostash game, but it seems like this time it worked!

    “Knicks have also had the 10th highest strength of schedule, which will only go up after 2 games against Charlotte. We also beat a pretty good Chicago team on the road.

    Beating the teams you’re supposed to at home is what lower end playoff teams do.”

    Agreed. I said something like this in the last thread. We’re right where a lower-echelon playoff team should be, given who we’ve played. We’ve caught a couple of good breaks (Detroit twice w/o Reggie Jackson, Dallas w/o Dirk, Griz w/o Allen and Parsons) but also got some bad breaks (Jazz in Hayward’s first game back, Wiz in Beal’s first game back). SOS is probably weird right now, since many teams have been up and down. But right now we “feel” like a .500 team with potential to either improve (if the bench continues to gel and we stay healthy) or regress (if we get injuries to key players.)

    But the main thing for me is the brand of basketball we’re playing. It is uptempo, free-flowing PnR with some underlying triangle principles and some iso-heavy sets on O, and fight through screens-minimize switching-get hands in passing and dribbling lanes-double and recover-guard the 3-pt line on D. I really like what I’m seeing!

    Harden with 12 turnovers last night, yikes.

    Also, it’s obvious the Warriors need to upgrade their roster and will be willing trade partners.

    @289 – I’ll give you credit, but I thought I read that from someone in the media.

    I am liking the way that they are playing the last couple of games, but it’s not just about the tempo, or pick and roll, or all the things you said. I agree with all of that, but it’s the effort and energy that is the big difference. There was one sequence against Portland, the one where Jennings got T’ed up. Willy and Kuz were on the floor, diving after the ball like it was their baby rolling off a cliff. Those possessions are what separates teams from the parity bunch. Let’s face it, in the NBA there are 3 types of teams: the elite, the scrubs and everyone else. Hustle plays is how we climb out of the “parity” crowd.

    I’d trade for Kevon Looney in a heartbeat but I doubt he’s available especially since GS is rolling over the league atm

    In the meantime, the Warriors dump 149 points on the Lakers, powered by 47 assists. When do they play the Knicks?

    I still don’t trade for Hezonja – we aren’t the Spurs, and though we’re showing some team unity, I wouldn’t be comfortable we’re the team to get him on the right track.

    But yeah, Powell’s number are better than I realized. I haven’t seen him play, but now I’m curious. (Not that he’d be on the block, where Hezonja, Rubio, and Dunn probably are.)

    Watching the Hornets v Spurs highlights….I think the key is Derrick Rose. He needs to attack Kemba relentlessly. That guy is balling right now and the way to combat that is to keep him in pick n rolls and line drives by Rose.

    GNYGNYG, I agree that the effort is better, but I think the perceived lack of effort was actually caused by confusion and lack of faith in the triangle. I like to harken back to Lee’s statement re: we need to practice playing D vs. the PnR because all we run in practice is the triangle and all we face in games is PnR. That tells me that the level of quiet dissent was extremely high at that point. When everyone is not on the same page, hustle doesn’t matter. People get frozen by uncertainty, the dirty looks and griping start, and the other team puts you down 20 early in games.

    I really think what happened is that Hornacek said to himself, “Enough of this bullshit, I’m coaching my way and playing guys based on merit and matchups.”

    i enjoyed reading intellectual comments from all the bloggers here but I remember most of us wanted Okafor for last year draft. Me myself wanted Mudiay. Phil will do some unfamiliar moves once in a while but the KP drafting is his best show so far.

    Hezonja is a perfect buy low target. You remember how the Knicks used to always panic and trade for older players when things didn’t go well? The Magic are in that space the KNicks always found themselves where their GM is under duress and will overpay for immediate upgrades. I’m not sure what we could offer them… I wonder if they’d be desperate enough to do something like Rose, Holiday and Kuzminskas for Biyombo, Payton and Hezonja…? That team desperately needs spacing and to clear the glut in their front line.

    Holiday is too good of a defender for me to want to trade him and Hezonja is horrible in defense. Though having Biyombo solves many problems….

    Hezonja put up some decent numbers as a 20-year old wing: .513 eFG%, .349 3PT%. He has some ability as a scorer, but he does appear to be completely one-dimensional. He’s a high-level athlete but has zero ability to create off the dribble, and he has a rep as a low-IQ player. Orlando has done a terrible job with young players, they have repeatedly whiffed in the draft and have not been able to develop the young guys on their roster.

    The one guy who I would consider trading would be Noah, because we play better without him. Who would want him and what could we acquire?

    I wonder if they’d be desperate enough to do something like Rose, Holiday and Kuzminskas for Biyombo, Payton and Hezonja…? That team desperately needs spacing and to clear the glut in their front line.

    We want to add another center making $18m per over the next 4 years? Payton also blows.

    Orlando seems stupid enough to do like Lance for C.J. Watson and Hezonja, or something along those lines.

    hezonja is a poor man’s thjr… and speaking of which i cannot believe the hawks wound up winning that trade…

    He’s a high-level athlete but has zero ability to create off the dribble, and he has a rep as a low-IQ player

    He should’ve been posted up a lot more in Orlando.

    Guys… Hezonja is 21 with elite athleticism and a good shooting touch. He isn’t an effective NBA player ATM but he has the potential to be very good.

    Payton is unlikely to pan out as an NBA player but he’s worth a gamble. He really just needs to learn to shoot to be a very good player. The problem is he hasn’t shown signs of improvement in that department. Beyond shooting, he’s a great passer and defender.

    Such a trade would make the team a bit worse in the short term (probably), but Noah is a sunk cost who even when he’s effective can’t play more than 30 minutes or so. The bad choice of investing in him shouldn’t stop us from trying to get a quality big man. Holiday’s contract expires this summer. Our odds of retaining him at a value are minimal. Kuzminskas’ deal runs longer but he’s 26; his upside is limited.

    Anyway, that trade won’t happen if the Knicks keep playing decently, and the Magic would probably turn it down anyway.

    Anyway, that trade won’t happen if the Knicks keep playing decently, and the Magic would probably turn it down anyway.

    Bruh, Orlando traded away Dipo and a lottery pick for Ibaka in severe decline. Traded away Tobias Harris for Jennings and Ilyasova’s expiring contracts.

    They’re really fucking dumb.

    I think this may make the comment count break 600:

    Woj had Donnie Walsh on his podcast yesterday, and boy does he talk truth about the Melo trade (how it went down, Dolan’s involvement), Isaiah’s influence, Bargs and Gallinari….

    Elfrid Payton really is an outstanding defensive player, one of the best defensive PGs in the league in my opinion. It’s too bad he’s such a liability on offense, because he’s fun to watch on the defensive end.

    @wetbandit yeah like how HE was the one who pushed for the trade….flying in the face of the popular knick fan theories.

    Yeah good THJR would be good ….aww well. Good job by ATL in developing him

    The one guy who I would consider trading would be Noah, because we play better without him. Who would want him and what could we acquire?

    You may be 100% correct in your assessment, but don’t you think 2 games is on the lite side as sample sizes go?

    I honestly wouldn’t want to be in a foxhole with most of you guys. 🙂

    I’m sure Lance and a 2nd rounder could pry Hezonja away from Orlando

    We should be shopping Lance around aggressively–he’s the only one whos realistically on the trading block

    I’m sure Lance and a 2nd rounder could pry Hezonja away from Orlando

    I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not, but this is exactly the type of trade I can imagine Orlano being stupid enough to make if Lance has a good month.

    No I’m being serious, the inmates are running the asylum over there.

    For who?

    Lance is terrible whose minutes are entirely replaceable by far superior players and Hezonja is a top 5 pick who had a rough year in a terrible organization. It’s the prototypical low risk high reward trade.

    It’d be terrible for Orlando, but they’re run by morons just like Sacto, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility.

    You know, hiring Hornacek and not getting Thibs or Vogel is looking better and better every day.

    I always felt like due to the amount of media coverage available in New York, our players get hyper analyzed so teams know better than to sign/trade for a guy like Lance Thomas.

    That being said, I’m not really interested in anything Orlando has on their roster unless they’re selling super low on Aaron Gordon.

    Didn’t realize that Orlando has Gordonbllaying SF LOL

    That’s one or two rungs below putting KD at shooting guard

    Come on guys…

    Nobody is trading two young players under rookie contract for Lance Fucking Thomas.

    You will get washed-up vets, 2nd round picks or D-leaguers.

    I’m fine with any of these options. Lance Thomas sucks.

    Bruh they traded Maurice Harkless for a top-55 protected pick when they guy was making pennies. Don’t underestimate the amazing stupidity of Rob Hennigan.

    I don’t know, man

    Maybe trading players for nothing is better than 4 years of Lance Thomas…

    I would say that players from NY get overvalued just as much as they get undervalued by teams that are looking to acquire them. Overvalued players are for example, Steve Novak and Landry Fields. And other over valued examples might be Derrick Williams and Jason Smith.

    Lance Thomas has value for this team, which he showed last year, and he will again later on this season. A couple of months ago, I remember a few people being in dismay that we would let him walk….

    I’m not saying we should trade him. I was just saying we shouldn’t assume he isn’t tradeable. Actually, I think when a player improves his shooting it’s 50:50 whether he actually got better or it was just a good season. Lance was young enough last year that he certainly could have improved. Now’s he’s out because of injuries and those injuries could easily have been messing with his shooting. So it will be interesting to see when he comes back, what is he like. I’m willing to wait. The team seems to be jelling a little (my fingers are crossed), so I really don’t want to make any trades at the moment. My hopes are that when we do start making trades it’s because we have enough depth that some young players are ready to step up and we can afford to let another go. Then we could say, trade Thomas for draft picks or other young players. I can’t remember the last time a Knick GM did traded for picks. If Jackson actually did that it would be a landmark moment in recent Knicks history.

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