Do You Think That the Knicks Will Trade For Chris Paul This Offseason?

Our all-poll content continues with a question about where you think that the Knicks stand with their odds of acquiring star point guard, Chris Paul, who is both amazing, 83 years old and making $630 million a year.

But will that stop the Knicks from trading for him?

Do you think that the Knicks will trade for Chris Paul this offseason?

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611 thoughts to “Do You Think That the Knicks Will Trade For Chris Paul This Offseason?”

  1. The sports news is clear the league will start play on December 22 and about when the draft and free agency will start. But it doesn’t say when the trade window will open. Usually it opens before the draft. Does anybody know when?

  2. I surprised myself by voting yes. It just seems inevitable because no one else wants or can absorb that contract.

  3. I think almost any deal for CP3 that doesn’t include us GETTING something else back to take his contract is probably a bad deal for us. I love CP3. I think he’s an all time great PG and really wish he would win a title somewhere. He’d instantly make us a lot better and be a great locker room influence for the young players. But there is a 0% chance we could contend next year and very little chance at his age he’d attract other stars in the future. It’s utterly pointless. I can’t even comprehend how it would be something he would sign off on or OKC would do to him.

    Westbrook would be even worse.

    I’m bailing on this team if they do either of those deals without us getting something else. There’s only so much pain a man should have to endure.

  4. Knick fan not in NJ:
    The sports news is clear the league will start play on December 22 and about when the draft and free agency will start. But it doesn’t say when the trade window will open.Usually it opens before the draft.Does anybody know when?

    The details on when the transaction window will open — allowing for trades, as well as players opting in or out of deals — are still being finalized, but it will be two or three days before the Nov. 18 NBA draft.

  5. I voted no because I think CP3 is still ring-chasing and knows it will not happen here. He has so much clout that even without a NTC I doubt that the Knicks would deal for him unless he really wanted to come here.

    Even if he does want to come here, my hope is that the front office would only make a trade that included significant sweetener…like one of the Houston 1st rounders.

  6. There’s something Amar’e-like about Toppin, but he’s a bit smaller and older so whatever. One thing though, if they keep Mitch, draft Toppin and trade for CP3, there will be a whole lotta dunking going on at MSG.

  7. i’m going to keep the faith and hope with all these fresh faces we’ve brought in to the front office they can figure out a smarter way forward than paying someone a billion dollars a year for a club that may not win 50% of its games…

    although, to be honest – i’ve said it a million times already, but, i really believe thibs needs a vet point guard…if it can happen, i’d rather we go after mike conley than cp3 for next season…

    i’m going to just hope westrook doesn’t join the team…not a big fan of his one man show out on the floor…plus, his contract runs another 3 years…yuch…double yuch…

  8. Yeah, but Amar’e wasn’t very good until he was Toppin’s age. I know “development time” and all that, but you get years 22 through 26 on a rookie contract, and then, at worst, 27 through 30 on a rookie’s max extension. I still don’t understand the hype about grooming extra-young players. As you can see with our rookies, it doesn’t mean shit. Luka Doncic would be a superstar anywhere. Knox would be a waste of a roster slot anywhere.

  9. i do get the idea of the amar’e comp but i don’t see it. amar’e wasn’t just explosive, he was amazingly fluid and coordinated. toppin is miles from that. he’s more like larry nance sr on offense and amar’e on defense.

  10. I voted no simply because I think a contender will save us from our own stupidity. The guy is simply too good for contenders to pass on for money reasons.

    Gun to my head, he’s in Milwaukee next year.

  11. If there’s any truth to our interest in trading for Westbrook it’s time to clean out the front office and start over again.

  12. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Yeah, but Amar’e wasn’t very good until he was Toppin’s age. I know “development time” and all that, but you get years 22 through 26 on a rookie contract, and then, at worst, 27 through 30 on a rookie’s max extension. I still don’t understand the hype about grooming extra-young players. As you can see with our rookies, it doesn’t mean shit. Luka Doncic would be a superstar anywhere. Knox would be a waste of a roster slot anywhere.

    It’s that most of the best players in the league are drafted very young. If you look at the 15 players who made the All-NBA teams this year 11 of them were drafted when they were 20 or younger. Only Lillard, Siakam, Butler, and Gobert were drafted over the age of 20.

  13. If there’s any truth to our interest in trading for Westbrook it’s time to clean out the front office and start over again.

    He’s clearly on the decline, I doubt he’ll attract quality players, and he doesn’t play a style I think we should be encouraging in NY long term.

    Plus, he’ll just take shots away from the new and improved aggressive Frank. :-)

  14. The draft is a market. There may be inefficiencies, but it isn’t as easy to find them as we’d all like to think unless you are Pat Riley or some other god-like basketball mind.

  15. Making me feel real good about my No vote, Windhorst just tweeted this:

    The Phoenix Suns have had discussions about acquiring Chris Paul from the OKC Thunder, sources tell me & @TimBontemps. Story forthcoming.

  16. What DRed said….

    And agree, Amare was such a phenomenon athletically. It was like if Shawn Kemp could do ballet. He was so electric when he broke out.

    I don’t see that in Toppin at all.

  17. Actually Toppin is kinda like young Carlos Boozer but without the post moves and with a three-point shot.

    Would be weird if we wound up with Deni falling to 8. Idk if I like that fit.

  18. I’m glad this was asked as a “would they?” rather than “should they?” I think, for both questions the answer is
    Westbrook? No and no
    CP3? No and no.

    This team, no matter what, is not ready for a talent. They need the cap space for the big free agent class of 2021. They have cap space and draft capitol. The objective should be to have a solid core of young players to attract the free agents. Solid core means that they need to compete and win (approach .500) this year with kids.

  19. Paul isn’t the move I’d make, but it’s also not the most insane thing in the world, in that he’s still a great player and would do a world of good for the young talent on the team, RJ and Mitch especially. And while his contract is terrible, he’d also keep us from doing much dumber things in free agency. This team hasn’t had a great point guard since I was a little kid (Clyde), and hasn’t even had a consistently good one since the early days of Marbury. Paul would help in both the long and short-term in a way that signing a comparably talented/priced/aged wing or big would not.

  20. Owen:
    What DRed said….

    And agree, Amare was such a phenomenon athletically.It was like if Shawn Kemp could do ballet. He was so electric when he broke out.

    I don’t see that in Toppin at all.

    Amar’e was very good right off the bat, developed tremendously during his first 3 years. In his rookie year at age 20 his game was essentially dunks and shots inside of 10 ft (90%) and he added a jumper later. Toppin has a bit of a head start there, shot 41% from 3 on 103 attempts, small sample but still…

    I think STAT had better hand-eye coordination and better interior footwork than Obi, but the lankiness, strength, explosiveness and athleticism are similar. Toppin is not Amar’e but he’s going to be a fun player to watch, especially if he winds up on a team with a good PG.

  21. ess-dog: Actually Toppin is kinda like young Carlos Boozer but without the post moves and with a three-point shot.

    That would be an excellent outcome at #8…

  22. Meanwhile, Knicks have had to temporarily shut down their facilities after three employees tested positive for Covid. The pandemic fun never stops…

  23. Amare was bigger than Toppin, he had like 20 pounds on him coming into the league and he was 3 years younger. Obi seems to hate leg day so he’s lighter than I thought-he’s 220. He will get absolutely mauled trying to guard NBA bigs.

  24. Amare could and did play center in the league. I don’t see Toppin as a center, which will make him difficult to play in the modern league unless his 3pt shooting is real and he ups his attempts.

  25. The league has changed since Amare’s heyday with lots of teams going small. Obi will probably split time between the 4 and 5, depending on matchups.

    He’s not really my cup of tea, but I think his floor is good NBA player.

  26. IMO, Amare was a very very good offensive player before he broke down. His problem was that he couldn’t defend the paint at C and if you put him at PF it took away some of his quickness edge and ability to roll and finish. He eventually totally broke down with the Knicks, but you could see that awkward fit with Chandler and Melo at times. I never saw Obi play, but if he’s a legit stretch PF that could eventually start and he’s at #8, we’d have to at least take a close look.

  27. Larry Nance was a really good player.

    Amar’e was too, in his prime.

    Boozer was pretty good too.

    Question: what unsung player(s) from the late 80s, 90s, early 2000 would thrive now (like all-NBA) rather than back then? I think Dana Barros is one. Maybe Billy Owens and Chris Mullin too. Dale Ellis. Jack Sikma. These just off my head. Anybody else just a decade or two before their time to thrive?

  28. Toni Kukoc was a Euro phenomenon back in his ‘Jugoplastika/Pop 84’ days.
    I think he’d have been a SuperDoncic today if given the chance of a young team’s keys.

  29. Yes?
    Tired of watching the Knicks with zero chance of winning and still not getting the right picks. Cp3 with the Knicks can still get some Ws and maybe if we play it right we can get a good pick. He could also reach out young guns and hopefully the trade is just a contract dump

  30. Any maestros of the trade machine want to figure out if we can pry away Ricky Rubio and any other assets to help facilitate CP3 to Phoenix?

  31. Any maestros of the trade machine want to figure out if we can pry away Ricky Rubio and any other assets to help facilitate CP3 to Phoenix?

    I’d sign off on that if there was a way to do it.

    Ideally, we would be better off if we had a shooter at PG, but Rubio does a lot of things well, he can run a team, and he’s going to be productive for the remainder of his contract and probably longer. It would be nice to have a PG that can actually pass, make his teammates better, and also defend. It would also demonstrate that this management sees the value in things other than being a great athlete and creating your own shot like the previous management.

  32. Rick Rubio is an old fetish on this blog.

    Now he’s 30 and it’s probably never going to happen at this point.

  33. DRed: Amare was bigger than Toppin, he had like 20 pounds on him coming into the league and he was 3 years younger. Obi seems to hate leg day so he’s lighter than I thought-he’s 220. He will get absolutely mauled trying to guard NBA bigs.

    This is the thing to me about Toppin. If you look at his closest physical comps, they’re mostly 3/4 hybrids, not 4/5 hybrids because of the weight. I think he’s going to need to improve his body a ton to be the player his fans see in him. Amare at his peak, for example, was one of the prime physical specimens in the history of the league. Everyone thinks of him in the PnR with Nash but he was a totally un-guardable isolation player also because nobody could match his size, strength, quickness combination in the mid-post. Toppin looks great jamming on mid-major kids at Dayton but Amare did that to Tim Duncan in the WCF.

  34. Yeah we’re a little jaded on STAT because we watched him fall apart as a Knick but when he came into the league dude was an absolute beast on the offensive end. Nash/STAT is up there with Stockton and Malone as one of the best pick and roll duos of all time. Dude was a lot to deal with.

  35. I can live with CP3 if we don’t give up picks but I absolutely could not stand Westbrook.

    I mean…I think Russ is actually a little underrated at this point. He’s a great player. But he is the exact opposite of what we need right now. At least CP3 could mentor some young backup PG we draft this year or next and would help the team learn to “play the right way.” Westbrook would just be isoing all day while the youngsters stand around and watch. I would be so upset with us making a trade for Westbrook.

  36. Well if there’s one bright side to this election and transition, it’s provided a distraction from thinking about how the Knicks are going to fuck the next month up with dumb draft picks, bad FA signings and stupid trades.

    Steve Cohen seems like the bomb so far.

  37. Westbrook has always been a polarizing player. If we could get the player he was in 2016-17, I could resign myself to watching him iso’ing to the tune of a 40% usg and .530 TS% for the next 3 seasons while putting up monster triple-doubles one after another. But he turns 32 tomorrow. His decline phase might be uglier than Melo’s.

    There is absolutely no logical reason to bring him to this team, no matter what we get as sweetener (which couldn’t be very much.)

  38. I mean, buying low on Westbrook isn’t the worst idea in theory, but he’s also a terrible fit for what we have now. I don’t even think it’s a good idea for Houston to trade him yet. I’d also prefer no CP3, mostly for his sake.

    No CP3, no Westbrook, no VanVleet, no Toppin, please.

    ESPN has us taking Hayes and Bane in their ‘perfect picks’ mock. I could definitely live with that.

    In what is sure to be another fucked up season, we shouldn’t try to be a playoff team and should shoot for a top-5 2021 pick. I don’t mean “tanking,” which some here say is morally repugnant… I just mean we should take the best available players who probably aren’t ready to contribute much in year one.

  39. That’s the other thing. Westbrook (and CP3) have both played on competitive teams that have made the playoffs every year for the vast majority of their careers. How are they gonna react to being on a young, struggling, rebuilding team for a few seasons? Could be a bad situation with either of them.

  40. Buying low on Westbrook definitely is the worst idea in history. (*After the Eddy Curry trade)

    It’s just totally insane and I refuse to even think about it.

  41. I don’t think “buying low” on Westbrook is even a physical possibility as he has one of the most expensive contracts in the NBA and is about to fall off an athletic cliff. What would “buying low” even mean, especially given Houston has no draft picks left? I mean I guess Bobby Portis, Julius Randle, Kevin Knox, Wayne Ellington, and Taj Gibson for Westbrook + some sort of “filler” asset like, I don’t know, James Harden and Robert Covington might qualify as “buying low”.

    (I’d even throw in Elfrid Payton)

  42. Seems draft Twitter is solidifying around the top 7 being Ball, Wiseman, Edwards, Avdija, Toppin, Halliburton, and Patrick Williams — that would leave Killian Hayes, Kira, Vassell, Okongwu, and Okoro available to us at 8. For me, Okongwu and Okoro are out given that they can’t really shoot. Who would people want between Killian/Kira/Vassell?

  43. Toppin is currently 22. When Amare was 22 he led the NBA in Offensive Win Shares. Can we please stop comparing these two.

  44. Frank:
    Seems draft Twitter is solidifying around the top 7 being Ball, Wiseman, Edwards, Avdija, Toppin, Halliburton, and Patrick Williams — that would leave Killian Hayes, Kira, Vassell, Okongwu, and Okoro available to us at 8.For me, Okongwu and Okoro are out given that they can’t really shoot.Who would people want between Killian/Kira/Vassell?

    1) I wouldn’t listen to Twitter on anything
    2) I have Hayes way above Kira & Vassell (I’d take Okoro or Okongwu over them too)

  45. Patrick Williams . . .lol, teams are so fucking dumb. Okongwu is probably the best player out of that group, but we don’t need another non-shooting center, so I’d go Vassell probably. He will almost certainly be able to shoot, rebound and play defense in the NBA.

  46. Chris Paul in theory could be an ok idea and I actually like Chris Paul.

    There’s no universe in which Russell Westbrook could make any sense, and I detest Russell Westbrook.

    I could enjoy a Knick team with Chris Paul, if the price and terms were right; I would detest a Knick team with Russell Westbrook and his chucking and his turnovers.

  47. As to the election, the country is teetering right now and the major media have done a positively awful job of public education. The issues in the courts have little to nothing to do with “voter fraud,” and the R majority legislatures of GA, MI, WI, PA, and AZ have the power to make Trump president. If you’re really paying attention, you’ll look at what they’re doing and saying and the lobbying of them from Trump’s side.

    As to the second sentence, it boggles belief that there’s been such little discussion about it. There’s a case directly on point currently IN the Supreme Court that the faction that matters has opined on ALREADY not once but twice.

    I have my political leanings; they’re pretty much center-left, but I’m also a process and procedure and institutions and checks and balances guy, and right now all of that is a complete disaster. This is a very dangerous time.

  48. FYI I just meant buying low on Westbrook could work out for the right team (one with an excess of shooters that needs a penetrator) since he might only cost cap space… purely hypothetical!

    I think Okongwu could play with Mitch since they can both defend the perimeter well. I also think Okongwu has nice touch and was decent from the stripe (72%). And he’s young. It would be a tough choice between him and Hayes.

  49. Who would people want between Killian/Kira/Vassell?

    Hayes by far and I’d pop almost as much champagne as I did on Saturday.

    Seriously guys, this kid is the real deal. If a 19 year old in the NCAA put up his numbers he’d probably be the consensus #1 overall pick, and the Eurocup is a tougher league than the NCAA.

    The sample size is definitely small (10 games) but 1) he showed plenty of the same skills playing for Cholet the prior year, and LNB Pro A is still probably around NCAA level and 2) the things he excelled at don’t tend to be small sample size mirages (2PT%, playmaking, defense).

  50. I want Hayes, too. Knicks should thank their lucky stars if he falls to 8 and take him and never look back. Knicks being Knicks … they probably won’t.

  51. The Patrick Williams thing is crazy to me because I can’t even figure out what it’s based on. Normally with these fast risers it’s because they’re guys who look great in workout environments and dumb teams anchor too much on that, but what’s the excuse this year with no real workouts?

  52. I like Vassell, but he’s not an inspiring pick. He projects as a league average 3pt shooter and defense is always difficult to project at the next level.

  53. Early Bird:
    Toppin is currently 22. When Amare was 22 he led the NBA in Offensive Win Shares. Can we please stop comparing these two.

    This is a very shallow thing to say. No one is saying that Obi Toppin is the next Amar’e Stoudemire. In fact, if you read carefully, this exact point was emphasized. The point is that he has an Amar’e-style of play and will play the same role…not that he will be as good at it. It’s like comparing Trae Young as a prospect to Steph Curry. Why is that so offensive to you?

  54. Any maestros of the trade machine want to figure out if we can pry away Ricky Rubio and any other assets to help facilitate CP3 to Phoenix?

    i mean if the deal was rubio and oubre as rumored we of course could give randle to okc and take rubio. it’s not crazy from okc’s standpoint because they get off of 21-22 money save randle’s $4m guarantee, and they already have SGA, Schroeder, Dort in their guard rotation, two of whom can play as lead guards, to go with a 30 year old rubio. For us it’s mostly a fit thing, as it clears up the mitch/randle congestion (but adds another space challenged starter) and provides the sort of pg who might at least theoretically be a little better for R’sJ and Mitch’s development than what we’ve seen. rubio’s contract might also be one you could eventually flip, especially if a good team had an injury at point guard. in that case we would presumably not bring back payton, given the unspoken cba hard cap on the number of no shoot pgs you’re permitted to roster. if you put this trade in the machine it would probably die of boredom.

  55. The most basic version of the trade (Rubio to NYK, CP3 to PHO, Randle and Oubre to OKC, plus presumably Phoenix sending OKC a pick or two) works. Beyond the Rubio fit, what else, if anything, could we extract as a facilitator, either in picks or in a young player or two without much daylight on the Suns or Thunder?

  56. Marcus Stroman accepted the Mets’ qualifying offer, which is good news. That’s 3/5 of a pretty decent starting rotation, now they need to add another top of rotation arm and some depth.

  57. The situation in Houston with Harden and Westbrook is getting bad. Here’s a crazy deal:

    Crazy thought: Westbrook and Harden for
    Randle, Portis, Taj Gibson, Ellington, Payton, Ntilikina, Knox, and a 2020 1st rd (#27)

    (Trade machine approved)

  58. I have my political leanings; they’re pretty much center-left, but I’m also a process and procedure and institutions and checks and balances guy, and right now all of that is a complete disaster. This is a very dangerous time.

    I promised myself I wouldn’t do this, but I feel compelled because I have a strong opinion. I hope people don’t respond.

    Trump is a narcissist. He’s always going to rationalize defeat. Saying he lost fair and square would destroy him and his brand as a “winner”. He’s eventually going to leave peacefully, but he will never concede that he was beaten fair and square. He’ll keep saying they cheated me and that he’s only going to move on because he loves America and wants it to be great, He’ll keep his troops riled up, continue raising money, the republicans will use the “we were cheated” rallying cry in the same way the left used “the Russians rigged the election” to keep their troops riled up. Trump will do book deals, rallies, TV etc.. and rake in a fortune all while being a constant irritant to the democrats.

    It’s all going to be fine unless he can actually prove widespread cheating (which I doubt he’ll be able to do). It may just take a few weeks.

    Then we can all move on and Make China Great Again! They are selling the hats for $15 in the appropriate red color. :-)

  59. Z-man: seriously, why even consider getting Rubio?

    Why are they supposedly considering CP3, Westbrook, or any other names being thrown around?

    IMO, those are terrible ideas.

    We need a PG,

    Rubio would be a solid upgrade and a veteran leader, he’s still got some gas left in the tank, the contract is short enough and movable, and he’d probably fit well under Thibs because he defends too. It’s either something like this, more of the same nonsense, or some 19 year old not ready for prime time being handed the keys. I don’t see any perfect scenarios out there, but I think they want to upgrade PG for sure.

  60. I dunno, I see Rubio as a rich man’s Elfrid Payton, and costs $10mill AAV more. CP3 is on another planet, even at age 35.

  61. Well, I hope there’s nothing to the recent moves in the DoD/Pentagon with supposed “Trump loyalists” being moved into power at this time, for some reason. But, I do wonder what Trump is capable of due to his unreal narcissism and obstinance.

    Were there ever really THAT many on the “left” who screamed that the Russians rigged the election? I don’t recall that being nearly to level that I’m seeing and hearing from the right currently. And that includes my right wing brother and a friend. I don’t recall any of my left leaning friends crying about Russia four years ago.

    Yeah, Stroman opting in for the Mets is good b/c it’s just one year, and the Mets might even be able to flip him for a prospect (though probably not getting the same value they spent to get him) if things don’t go real well this season. So DeGrom and Stroman.

    Trade for Russell Westbrook? W.T.F?

  62. It’s all going to be fine unless he can actually prove widespread cheating (which I doubt he’ll be able to do). It may just take a few weeks.

    If “it’s all going to be fine” = Joe Biden will be sworn in as President on January 20th, 2021, sure.

    If “it’s all going to be fine” = “Trump and the rest of the GOP doing everything possible to convince a huge swath of this country that the 2020 election was illegitimate will not do long lasting damage,” hard disagree!

  63. Were there ever really THAT many on the “left” who screamed that the Russians rigged the election? I don’t recall that being nearly to level that I’m seeing and hearing from the right currently. And that includes my right wing brother and a friend. I don’t recall any of my left leaning friends crying about Russia four years ago.

    Here’s the thing: maybe 10% of Democratic voters believed this, maybe 50%, maybe 90%, whatever. It doesn’t matter because Democrats in power did not act on it. Hillary Clinton conceded the election the morning after it took place. Barack Obama at least tried to carry out a normal transition process. There were no serious efforts made to contest Trump’s (tiny) victories in the tipping point states.

  64. Z-man: This is a very shallow thing to say. No one is saying that Obi Toppin is the next Amar’e Stoudemire. In fact, if youread carefully, this exact point was emphasized. The point is that he has an Amar’e-style of play and will play the same role…not that he will be as good at it. It’s like comparing Trae Young as a prospect to Steph Curry. Why is that so offensive to you?

    Lol, z-man why are you taking so much offense to it?

  65. People believe russia INTERFERED in the election, not that Russia stole it or rigged it. huge difference. The Mueller report basically confirmed that, the only question is to what degree the Trump team colluded with them. By the way, if you read the actual Mueller report and not the GOP talking points rom it, the report itself is far less forgiving of Trump and his team and basically says there was collusion.

    But only the most extreme people on the left think Russia actually stole or rigged it.

    And like it was pointed above, Clinton conceded on the night of the election. EVen though the margin of victory for trump was smaller than biden’s margin now.

    I do think most of this is posturing to keep the base energized for the GA runoffs. There is still an outside chance DEMs can get a 50/50 split in the senate, which would be huge. So they want to prevent that.

    But while I don’t think Trump will actually attempt a coup or be successful if he does, I do think this is just going to make life that much harder for Biden once he does take over, which is probably also their goal.

  66. Early Bird: Lol, z-man why are you taking so much offense to it?

    Funny, it sounded like YOU were the one taking offense…you said “Can we please stop comparing these two?” But no worries.

  67. Guys, you’re overlooking one of the fundamental principles of the Trump Administration: the grift.

    The donate links in Trump’s emails have 50% of all proceeds earmarked for paying off campaign debt.

    If they concede defeat, the money stops coming in. It’s that simple.

  68. Let’s do a three-part prediction:

    (1) Who will win ROY? (i.e. who will play the most minutes and score the most points)
    (2) Which rookie will have the highest BPM >1000 MP?
    (3) Who will lead rookies in VORP? (factoring in playing time)

    Also, here are the All-Rookie Teams, with rookie PPG rank:

    Morant (2)
    Nunn (3)
    Clarke (12)
    Williamson (1)
    Paschall (5)
    Herro (6)
    Davis (19)
    White (8)
    Washington (11)
    Hachimura (7)

    Barrett (21-45), Garland (19-46) and Hunter (20-47) were top-10 in PPG but all missed the cut, likely due to their teams being dogshit, just like their play. Pointzzz is alive and well.

  69. Here’s the thing: maybe 10% of Democratic voters believed this, maybe 50%, maybe 90%, whatever. It doesn’t matter because Democrats in power did not act on it.

    You mean beyond setting up a special counsel’s office staffed with like thirty lawyers to investigate it, and then talk about it in the major papers and a bunch of TV political talk shows every night for two-plus years?

  70. E: You mean beyond setting up a special counsel’s office staffed with like thirty lawyers to investigate it, and then talk about it in the major papers and a bunch of TV political talk shows every night for two-plus years?

    Wait, who set up the special council’s office? Last i checked it was a bunch of Republicans…

  71. The next big date is November 20, when the PA counties submit their final tallies and the SOS puts her name to it and actually commits to a number. At that point, most likely, the pending Supreme Court case truly ripens and we see what happens. Until then, this is all pretty much just noise, and the NYT and Yahoo “calling” the race doesn’t mean squat.

    And to expand on the earlier statement about the Supreme Court case involving PA; the claim is that all the ballots received after 8 pm on election night are invalid because the statute governing elections has that as the deadline. The Supreme Court seems very inclined to accept that argument. “Voter fraud” has nothing to do with that; even a cosmically unfraudulent ballot is no good under the statute if it’s received too late. The Supremes ordered the PA SOS to segregate every ballot received after that time, reiterating what the Supremes were told in late October was going to happen; there’s every indication based on what Alito said in the document ordering it — I’d commend everyone to actually read it, it’s not that long — that it wasn’t done.

    At that point, someone is going to have to blink. Either the Supreme Court backs off, or the PA Rs in the legislature decide not to exercise their prerogative to name the state’s electors themselves. The same process is going on in Georgia and pretty much in Michigan. I’m not at max worry yet, but it’s shaping up to be potential disaster. And the public education organs and institutions have completely shed their functions, in favor of the echo chamber.

  72. “ You mean beyond setting up a special counsel’s office staffed with like thirty lawyers to investigate it, and then talk about it in the major papers and a bunch of TV political talk shows every night for two-plus years?”

    Teeny, tiny problem with your logic here: the special counsel was appointed by Trump appointee Rod Rosenstein, who was approved by a Republican Senate.

    Of course, it would be a nonsensical equivalency regardless as the Mueller report did in fact show a bare minimum of malfeasance and arguably illegality. Compare that to the ridiculous “irregularities” being alleged from Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

  73. Speaking of echo chambers, there’s a very long, rather boring and somewhat pointless article in the Ringer about draft needs for every team, but toward the end there’s a separate box about playmakers in the draft that sounds exactly right. Worth a scroll down if you’re bored (you can stop by the Knicks on the way, although it says nothing we haven’t been repeating endlessly here).

    https://nbadraft.theringer.com/?_ga=2.167650174.1384025953.1605112091-286612452.1600699595#teams

  74. Teeny, tiny problem with your logic here: the special counsel was appointed by Trump appointee Rod Rosenstein, who was approved by a Republican Senate.

    To continue an investigation begun by a Democratic administration begun well before Trump was even in office.

    Let’s please not pretend the Democrats didn’t support the Mueller investigation; it’s embarrassing.

    You’re an aspiring lawyer, here’s a word of advice: A really good lawyer knows their opponent’s arguments often better than their opponent even knows them themselves. Explore what’s going on and being said and argued outside the intermediation of those things by the left-wing echo chamber.

  75. I have a strong opinion. I hope people don’t respond.

    that’s just beautiful :)

    Well, I hope there’s nothing to the recent moves in the DoD/Pentagon with supposed “Trump loyalists” being moved into power at this time, for some reason.

    my first instinct – that dude is about to pay off some debts vis a vis the DoD…i’m not sure how exactly, cuz i don’t follow this closely enough, but, yeah – he’s gonna do some dirty shit with either our overseas troop presence or weapon sales (i don’t even know if that’s a DoD kind of thing)…

    jason robards in ‘once upon a time in the west’ put it pretty well when he referenced mr. Morton – you leave a slime trail behind you like a snail

    that’s the thing that gets me about the soon to be ex-POTUS…he’s so damn arrogant, lazy and dumb, on top of that he surrounds himself with inept sycophants – how the hell can he do so much dirt without getting caught and convicted…just seems nearly impossible…

  76. E:
    The next big date is November 20, when the PA counties submit their final tallies and the SOS puts her name to it and actually commits to a number.At that point, most likely, the pending Supreme Court case truly ripens and we see what happens.Until then, this is all pretty much just noise, and the NYT and Yahoo “calling” the race doesn’t mean squat.

    And to expand on the earlier statement about the Supreme Court case involving PA; the claim is that all the ballots received after 8 pm on election night are invalid because the statute governing elections has that as the deadline.The Supreme Court seems very inclined to accept that argument.“Voter fraud” has nothing to do with that; even a cosmically unfraudulent ballot is no good under the statute if it’s received too late.The Supremes ordered the PA SOS to segregate every ballot received after that time, reiterating what the Supremes were told in late October was going to happen; there’s every indication based on what Alito said in the document ordering it — I’d commend everyone to actually read it, it’s not that long — that it wasn’t done.

    However, the number of votes received after polls closed in Pennslyvania only number about 10,000, with Biden leading by nearly 50,000. It will be likely a moot point for the Supremes to decide. It’s hard for me to see the court disenfranchising voters who cast ballots that were legal at the time. But that’s up to them.

  77. That Rubio trade idea could have legs.
    He would be a decent enough placeholder for whoever the next pg will be, and getting rid of Randle would be sweet.
    Plus, he surprisingly shot .361 from three this year on 3.3 shot per game.
    And he would most likely be movable in the last year of his contract.

  78. I doubt that the Supreme Court will do anything to disenfranchise PA voters who acted on the PA SC’s ruling in good faith and would have no remedy at this point (as they would have had if SCOTUS had ruled before Election Day. They might give a clue as to how they would rule in the future, but those votes will surely count.

  79. Addicted To The Knicks: It’s hard for me to see the court disenfranchising voters who cast ballots that were legal at the time.

    Technically, they wouldn’t have been “legal at the time,” given the statutes on the books and the constitution, but the bigger point is that yes, it could be argued that it’s disenfranchising voters. Sounds like the kind of thing that if it happens might piss off a whole lot of people and throw the country into massive turmoil — particularly when the institutions that typically inform the public and ready the public for things that might happen have decided not to do that anymore. If it happens, and it very well might, the public has not been remotely prepared for it; instead, they’ve been gaslighted and propagandized.

    Thus, the worry I’ve expressed.

  80. As to Georgia, the hand recount will not find 7500 Trump votes that went to Biden. Nor will they find 15000 net Biden votes to throw out.

    This election is over.

  81. They might give a clue as to how they would rule in the future, but those votes will surely count.

    First step is to see whether the SOS counts them, whether she segregated the ballots and did a separate count as the Supreme Court ordered her to do and as she assured them in late October she would be doing. Reading the Alito order, there’s every reason to believe that was not done as the Court anticipated it would be done. That is going to be an extremely poor posture in which to be presenting the case on the merits, if it comes to it.

    Next step is whether the legislature and interested parties decide, “No, we’re following the statute and the 8 pm deadline,” and send their own slate of electors. If the SOS didn’t segregate and count separately, it makes this path more tenable as do real allegations of true voter fraud. Still to be seen.

    Mixed into all of that is the Supreme Court litigation, which now the Trump campaign and 10 attorneys general have joined in on essentially the Republican side. At least two AGs have filed amicus briefs. (As initially filed, it was only the PA Republican party as the litigating party; that’s no longer the case.)

    And more mixed into it are all the various deadlines for state certifications, and electoral college meetings and all the rest.

  82. sometimes – you just got to give the devil his due…exorcism continues: january 20th, 2021…

    1. The Presence. The exorcist and his assistants become aware of an alien feeling or entity.

    2. Pretense. Attempts by the evil spirit to appear and act as the victim, to be seen as one and the same person. The exorcist’s first job is to break this Pretense and find out who the demon really is. Naming the demon is the most important first step.

    3. Breakpoint. The moment where the demon’s Pretense finally collapses, a scene of extreme panic and confusions accompanied by a crescendo of abuse, horrible sights, noises and smells. The demon begins to speak of the possessed victim in the third person instead of as itself.

    4. The Voice. Also a sign of the Breakpoint, the Voice is inordinately disturbing and humanly distressing babel. The demon’s voices must be silenced for the exorcism to proceed.

    5. The Clash. As the Voice dies out, there is a tremendous pressure, both spiritual and physical. The demon has collided with the “will of the Kingdom”. The exorcist, locked in battle with the demon, urges the entity to reveal more information about itself as the exorcist’s holy will begins to dominate. As mentioned above, there is a direct link between the entity and place, as each spirit wants a place to be. For such spirits, habitation of a living victim is preferable to Hell.

    6. Expulsion. In a supreme triumph of God’s will, the spirit leaves in the name of Jesus, and the victim is reclaimed. All present feel the Presence dissipating, sometimes with receding noises or voices. The victim may remember the ordeal or may have no idea what has happened.

  83. To continue an investigation begun by a Democratic administration begun well before Trump was even in office.

    Let’s please not pretend the Democrats didn’t support the Mueller investigation; it’s embarrassing.

    Hahahahaha, I’m sorry you got caught confidently making a dopey equivalence but this continues to make no sense. Rosenstein, Trump’s guy, was free to do whatever he wanted with Crossfire Hurricane after Sessions recused himself. He chose to continue it (via the special counsel) on the merits. A registered Republican appointed by a Republican President and confirmed by a Republican Senate did that. Sorry.

    Did Democrats “support” the Mueller investigation? I mean…yeah, dude, and I’m glad they did. I’m not sure what point you’re making here but it’s quite a far cry from what you said initially which was that they somehow started it, despite not having wielding any of the levers of power in government when it was started. Even Republicans nominally “supported” the investigation, what a meaningless little rejoinder.

  84. I doubt that the Supreme Court will do anything to disenfranchise PA voters who acted on the PA SC’s ruling in good faith and would have no remedy at this point (as they would have had if SCOTUS had ruled before Election Day. They might give a clue as to how they would rule in the future, but those votes will surely count.

    The silliest thing is, as noted, that Biden doesn’t even need those votes to win. It’s so pointless.

  85. Begley:

    Some MSG people are wary of giving up too many assets in a Paul deal because they want to ensure that New York has enough capital in place for a future trade for another high-profile player, SNY sources say.

    It’s unclear what Oklahoma City would ask for in a deal to acquire Paul, but if Phoenix and other teams are involved in the bidding, that would presumably drive up the price.

  86. mase: WHY!?!

    To bring some juice into the Garden. This doesn’t give up the key pieces for the future: RJ and Mitch and they fit well together and the Knicks have most of their draft assets.

    Personally, I don’t like it but it’s interesting.

  87. Addicted To The Knicks: the number of votes received after polls closed in Pennslyvania only number about 10,000, with Biden leading by nearly 50,000. It will be likely a moot point for the Supremes to decide.

    Exactly this.

    E: the Supreme Court litigation, which now the Trump campaign and 10 attorneys general have joined in on essentially the Republican side. At least two AGs have filed amicus briefs.

    All well and good but what’s the endgame, even if the Supremes do rule to invalidate the 10K PA votes received after the 3rd? Either the plaintiffs are really bad at math (“10K>50K; we win!!!”) or they’re hoping to leverage a favorable, but ultimately inconsequential, ruling into a followup challenge alleging it as evidence that more widespread cheating must have been afoot. Whatever the thinking, it’s a pretty thin reed upon which to base their hopes of ultimately reversing the result in a state that they absolutely have to win to get to 270.

  88. I honestly think they just want to keep finding ways to whittle away votes from Biden anyway they can and they will do that in every close state until each race is as close as possible and only then will he concede but he won’t even really concede. He’ll just say the Dems did such a good job at cheating they weren’t able to overcome the thousands of fraudulent votes and he’ll throw every judge, poll worker, etc…who didn’t work in their favor under the bus whether they’re a republican or a democrat.

    The end goal is to stay in power but the second goal, if the first one isn’t achievable, is to sow so much distrust into the election results that all of the people who voted for him will think Biden is illegitimate and he will have the most difficult time as possible when he takes over. He will also not help at all with the transition, will fire as many people as possible, pardon as many people as possible and do as little real work as possible in order to give Biden a total shit sandwich from which to work with. Making it that much more likely that in 4 years people will blame Biden for whatever state our country is in even if Biden has managed to climb us a little bit out of the huge hole trump has dug and is continuing to dig. Trump will then run for re-election or he’ll support another candidate who will be just like Trump except maybe younger and more dangerous.

    His supporters will lick it up all the way. The “deep state” now includes everyone who voted for Biden, all major media outlets, all doctors and scientists and all world leaders who are against him. Its everyone vs. him and his followers. They are the true victims here.

    And it will be even harder to reach them bc they’re all going to silo themselves off on parler. So we truly will all be in our own political bubbles.

  89. C’mon folks, while it’s partly to pacify the screaming orange infant having the temper tantrum over in the cereal aisle, it’s more about maintaining their base’s electoral anger over a ‘clearly stolen election’ (yeah, I know, but PizzaGate and child-porn satanists is my response) with an eye toward 2022 as well as Georgia in January. I mean if they actually do steal back the election great, but that’d just be icing.

  90. is it some big coincidence that there’s a pretty big overlap between frank truthers and magacultists? i think not!

    E,

    will you give me action on biden being president on Jan 20th? or is this all a ruse?

  91. One other thing: the round of questioning from Roberts & Kavanaugh during the ACA hearing yesterday suggests that there may still be enough justices on the Court who possess a genuine desire to maintain at least the perception of it as an independent, relatively non-partisan branch of the Federal government.

    While I personally harbor no such illusions, I do believe that Roberts (in particular) has little appetite for running roughshod over every pro-Democratic or left-left leaning legislation that comes before the court. Both Kavanaugh and Gorsuch seem to be on board with the program of throwing the left an occasional bone in order to help bolster the Court’s legitimacy in the public eye. Unlike far right True Believers Thomas, Alito, and (perhaps) Barrett, the other three conservative justices strike me as savvy political operatives willing to play a long game and keep their powder dry for when it’s time to make favorable rulings on those cases that are at the top of the Republican wish list.

    With that in mind, I can’t see them sticking their necks out for the sake of tossing 10K votes that won’t materially affect the outcome in PA. If the election hinged on those votes, sure. That’s why the Court left the option open to revisit it after the 4-4 tie the first time around. But given the way that things have played out since that ruling, I strongly suspect they’ll decline to rehear the case and run the risk of pointlessly tarnishing the image of the Court as an impartial umpire, only interested in “calling balls and strikes.”

  92. i’ve never really found politics all that interesting before, you all have completely corrupted me…still being late to the party and all – seems like fairness isn’t really achievable – to which it seems more practical to dominate and subjugate, as much as our democratic process allows…seventy eight million to seventy three million seems clear enough, fuck the electoral college…

    hmmmm, seeing as i’ve had some time to give this stuff more thought – i’m beginning to formulate a basis for my own political platform…the geo party: no guns, mandatory two year service, drug use no longer processed through the criminal system (good job oregon), universal health and child care, eliminate the electoral college, mandatory two year service, free secondary education, no guns, DC and Puerto Rico become states, clean energy, re-work the national transportation system…

    not finished yet, but…

  93. I voted no in the poll, but if trading for CP3 means we don’t trade for Westbrook, then I am down for that. I’ve read a lot of takes on why trading for CP3 is a good move, but I kind of want to see what Thibs does with the guard rotation as is and whether he can get something out of DSJ and Frank.

  94. swiftandabundant: sow so much distrust into the election results that all of the people who voted for him will think Biden is illegitimate and he will have the most difficult time as possible when he takes over.

    This is hardly a new development in US politics. Starting with Bush v. Gore, there have only been two elections (Obama in ’08 & ’12) in which the losing side did not seriously question the legitimacy of the winning side’s victory throughout the course of its term.

    In 2004, due to the machinations of Ohio SOS (& Bush campaign state co-chair) Ken Blackwell that helped deliver the state’s 20 EVs which gave W a narrow Electoral College win (286-251) over John Kerry, many Dems steadfastly refused to accept that outcome as genuine.

    In 2016, of course, there were both the allegations of Russian interference combined with the narrowness of the victory (78k total votes in WI, MI, PA) that led to four years of unending Democratic gripes over Trump’s legitimacy.

    This time ’round, it’s the Rs turn to complain – even though their case is nowhere near as grounded in evidence as those put forth by Team Blue in ’00, ’04, and ’16. No matter; that’s just the way elections and their aftermath roll in this country these days. If a likely 306-232 EC win & a more than 5 million + popular vote victory is not enough to confer legitimacy on Biden’s presidency, than I daresay nothing would have.

  95. Mitch McConnell is a lot of things, but no one has ever accused him of being stupid. He must recognize that the Republican Party is the primary beneficiary of the current system, and that enabling Trump to dismantle the system is the equivalent of committing party suicide.

  96. ***Starting with Bush v. Gore, there have only been two elections (Obama in ’08 & ’12) in which the losing side did not seriously question the legitimacy of the winning side’s victory throughout the course of its term.***

    Umm… have you forgotten the eight straight years of “Obama was born in Kenya”?

  97. Something happened in the early 2000s whereby the citizenry now takes politics far too seriously. Probably social media and the eclipse of something else that used to serve the function politics serves today — maybe religion?

    Do people realize that all that head of state, king and queen, and Her Majesty stuff in Britain is intended for the masses and not the smart people? I really don’t think they do. The hourly obsession with the American head of state and the hopes and wishes and yearnings heaped upon him/her speak pretty strongly otherwise.

    Now as to the more mundane stuff, I’m a lawyer and so I’m all about oaths, affidavits, court filings, declarations. A statement to a bunch of reporters means nothing. So I’ll believe there were only 10,000 post-8 pm votes when it’s put in a filing under penalty of perjury and cross-examination. Maybe it will be. If it is, there’s no case left if current conditions stand. The Alito statement is grounds for great skepticism on the matter. But we’ll see. Like I wrote earlier, everything we hear until the actual certification is pretty much just meaningless noise.

  98. E,

    I want to take you seriously. Frankly, I can’t remember your basketball points very well, which is really the only way to grade people’s character here. Your points today have been salient, and you seem to have some authority on which you speak; however, some of the things you’ve written today have given me pause. For example, the Crown in the UK has little effect of policy matters, whereas the POTUS, as we’ve seen, has enormous influence over the government. It’s an apples to oranges comparison. Also, Michigan and Arizona have state laws mandating the electoral delegation to vote for the candidate the state has pledged them to. The PA legislature has indicated that they are not interested in playing along, which leaves just GA and WI, neither of which would be enough to get Biden below 270, even if every elector in both of the delegations voted as faithless electors. And, even if PA decided to go along (for no clear reason) then you’d still need the entire republican caucus, including Murkowski, Collins, and Sasse, all of whom have acknowledged president-elect Biden publicly, to join the coup. So, though the scenario you are bracing for is possible, but still seems highly improbable, especially in lieu of any tangible motive on the establishment republicans part to be complicit.

  99. For example, the Crown in the UK has little effect of policy matters, whereas the POTUS, as we’ve seen, has enormous influence over the government.

    Yes, POTUS is head of state and head of government here. I see the obsessions over him/her as being more aimed at the latter function than the former although there are grounds to dispute that. I can’t forget the precise wording, but supposedly Marc Maron did a podcast a day or two ago when he basically opined that the head of state ground or balances the populace. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. The president is typically caricatured on SNL, for example, in his role as head of state, not government.

    Also, Michigan and Arizona have state laws mandating the electoral delegation to vote for the candidate the state has pledged them to. The PA legislature has indicated that they are not interested in playing along, which leaves just GA and WI, neither of which would be enough to get Biden below 270, even if every elector in both of the delegations voted as faithless electors.

    All states, with the exception of Maine and Nebraska, have that rule (which is why we have for example the “NE-2” electoral vote, which I think Biden flipped). The issue in the case isn’t that, though, it’s whether the popular vote that decides the electors was done in accordance with the laws passed by the legislature (which has the ultimate constitutional power). And then if they weren’t — if for example the SOS counted votes that came in after 8 pm in PA — does the legislature have the authority to then use its inherent power to name electors itself. Yes, that’s a matter of will and desire too (*), which is why I’m watching statements by state legislatures very closely. All the swing states except NV have R legislatures and they’re ultimately constitutionally empowered with potentially significant authority.

  100. Oh sure, E, but like Donnie said, where do you stand on LaMelo? Or more telling, Phil Jackson? We can’t assess your positions without some sort of baseline…

  101. ***All states, with the exception of Maine and Nebraska, have that rule***

    Arizona and Michigan specifically have laws that, once the election is certified, invalidate faithless electors. The Supreme Court unanimously upheld these laws over the summer.

  102. Wow, Tim Duncan stepping down as assistant coach. That’s a bad look for Pop, as it was one thing to make Duncan the interim head coach if Duncan was being groomed to be the head coach, but now it seems like everyone involved thought Duncan would only be assisting for a single season since he didn’t want to commit himself to it fully. So odd.

  103. Also, despite all the hollering on election night over “the polls were wrong!”, the aggregate average of the polls is going to get every state right with the lone exception of a Georgia, which the polls had in Trump’s favor by 1%. The only state that was well outside the margin of error was Wisconsin, which, given the covid outbreaks there in the weeks leading up to the election, isn’t that hard to explain. IF there was widespread voter fraud, that would explain the discrepancy in the pre-election poll numbers. But, seeing as the little discrepancy that there was worked in the Republican’s favor, and the fact that down ballot republicans did exceedingly well against expectations, it’s a little hard to accept that a vast interstate conspiracy of deep-state Democrats influenced this election. And John Roberts, among many others, knows it.

  104. E – You are a lawyer. What happens to a lawyer who goes into court and lies to a judge?

    The Trump lawyers who have been in court in PA have said they have no evidence of fraud.

    Not sure why you would doubt them.

  105. I want to take you seriously. Frankly, I can’t remember your basketball points very well, which is really the only way to grade people’s character here.

    oh shit, i’m in trouble…

  106. Twitter aflame right now after Charania says Westbrook requested a trade from Houston.

    Early trade scenarios pointed by Twitter people include the Clippers and, of course, the Knicks.

  107. I will instinctively be terrified whenever a player with a shitty contract is being shopped until a Knicks front office proves I shouldn’t, so that Shams update terrifies me.

  108. Donnie Walsh: ***Starting with Bush v. Gore, there have only been two elections (Obama in ’08 & ’12) in which the losing side did not seriously question the legitimacy of the winning side’s victory throughout the course of its term.***

    Umm… have you forgotten the eight straight years of “Obama was born in Kenya”?

    Ha! Right you are, sir. When I posted that earlier, I was primarily focused on post-election complaints from the losing side about the integrity of the voting process itself. The Dems had fact-based complaints about widespread disenfranchisement in ’00 (FL), ’04 (OH), as well as ’16 (multiple states) to go along with their allegations of Russian interference. Now it’s the R’s turn to grouse about rampant voting “irregularities” despite failing to produce a shred of evidence to support those claims.

    That playbook would not have gained any traction in ’08 & ’12 due to Obama’s overwhelming margins of victory. So – as you correctly point out – the GOP went another route & ginned up Birthergate as a means of undermining his presidency. All of which goes to further illustrate just how utterly unremarkable it’s become for an (Electoral College) minority of the electorate to sow doubt about the legitimacy of a president elected by an (Electoral College) majority, no matter how small or large the victory. It’s been an entrenched feature of US politics for some 20 years now and did not originate this year with Trump.

  109. Z:
    Which would the board prefer:

    a) Trump in the White House until 2024

    b) Westbrook on the Knicks until 2023

    For some reason the old Brooklyn Dodger quip, “Stalin, Hitler, and O’Malley are in a room and you only have two bullets, what do you do? Shoot O’Malley twice” comes to mind.

    ESPN TV mock draft had Halliburton going to the Knicks at 8. He’s not going to drop that far, but if the Knicks get him at 8, he’ll be a steal.

  110. FWIW, I was “meh” on the Melo trade (didn’t like it but did not hate it anywhere near as much as did many here); was negative about the Phil Era from Day One (never understood handing over the keys of basketball operations to a septuagenarian ex-coach who’d never done it before); was unhappy about the Knox pick as soon as it was announced; and am still a fan of Frank and remain irrationally invested in hoping to see him succeed as a Knick.

    In other words, my political takes should probably be greeted with a healthy dose of skepticism on this board..

  111. It’s been an entrenched feature of US politics for some 20 years now and did not originate this year with Trump.

    Constant refrain from me by now, but that’s all because of social media. This bullshit used to be relegated to street corners and corner stools in seedy bars, but now it has an outlet with cheap global range, and a built-in support system. The old social cues way of signaling that they’re nuts to a person slinging loon bullshit have all been eradicated and actually reversed.

  112. We all gotta pull together and stop talking Westbrook to the Knicks into existence. Just need to keep quiet and pretend it’s not a thing.

  113. It’s not a thing by any means. It’s a ploy by our brilliant FO to make him ask out which he did thus reaping the benefits as a third team facilitator. Great job rose!

  114. Russ looks like his preferred destinations are the Bucks, Lakers, Clippers or Hawks. Looks like we dodged a bullet.

  115. Technically, they wouldn’t have been “legal at the time,” given the statutes on the books and the constitution,

    To clarify, didn’t PA supreme court say that they would count? Which would mean they are legal, unless SCOTUS overturns a state court interpreting state law. Doesn’t seem against the us constitution as other states accept mail votes late as long as the postmark is timely. Timeline seems like it would matter re: disenfranchisement as PA court decided this well before the election.

    This is oddly more comforting than thinking about the Knicks trading for Westbrook.

  116. i’m fine with us giving up a few small assets — say the 8 and mitch — to get 32-34yr old westbrook for $130m. but only if we immediately stretch him. it would be our leaving las vegas moment.

  117. E — *He’s not going to drop that far, but if the Knicks get him at 8, he’ll be a steal.*

    Your legal opinions are now gold, as far as I’m concerned.

  118. Which would the board prefer:
    a) Trump in the White House until 2024
    b) Westbrook on the Knicks until 2023

    i haven’t really paid this much attention to this kind of stuff – but, was there this kind of widespread jubilation in the streets for reagan, clinton, kennedy, or even barack…saturday felt (and looked) like some old school world war II victory day kind of thing…

    the country’s reaction was pretty meaningful – and, let’s be honest, it wasn’t all for love of joe…

    i remember being pissed at carter for being weak…for some reason it really bugged me he “gave away” panama…i didn’t think much of the first bush, mostly because he wasn’t reagan, and that trickle down economic thing irritated me…i thought dick cheney was evil incarnate – him shooting someone while hunting was kind of funny though (i still need to watch that movie Vice), i just thought bush was dumb and gullible, not really a bad guy, i liked his mom a lot…

    this last one though – fudge, i mean not everyone whom gets involved in public service is going to be drawn to serving the public, self interests and whatnot…plus, it’s not really that hard to be competent in most professions…even if you have very average abilities, a little hard work and you can usually perform just fine…and, even if you do have more than a few of those seven deadly sins actively engaged inside of you – generally, you can’t do that much damage to any one established institution…

    this thing though: Executive Order on Creating Schedule F In The Excepted Service – wow, that’s some insanity right there…that’s government coupe type stuff – by the president himself, which is weird…that’s one “loophole” that’s gotta get closed fast…

    hopefully biden chooses a motivated AG who starts investigating what just happened over the last four years…

  119. hopefully biden chooses a motivated AG who starts investigating what just happened over the last four years…

    If we want to do it right, we should probably go back around 120 years so we cover the period just prior to the Fed being created. I’m willing to write off any corruption before that.

  120. So now Parler, yet another ideological echo chamber, is booming. Which means we’re at a point where the two hyped-up political tribes can’t even co-exist on Twitter.

    Republic is doomed. The geographic and social sorting that started in the late 70s/early 80s started the doom, social media finished it. Time to figure out the way to divorce. The Knicks going through customs to play not only the Raptors, but also teams like the Thunder, is a bit of a bizarre thought — but there’s really no other choice at this point. I don’t think it’s really that much of a stretch, if it’s a stretch at all, to say that the two cultures that reside in the US are less compatible now than they were in the run-up decades to the Civil War.

    Nice article in the Athletic today about the Rockets. Westbrook comes off as the over-officious pain-in-the-ass one-man chemistry wrecker who no one can stand that he obviously is. Giving that clown the run of the Garden is a positively nauseating thought.

  121. thenoblefacehumper: If “it’s all going to be fine” = Joe Biden will be sworn in as President on January 20th, 2021, sure.

    If “it’s all going to be fine” = “Trump and the rest of the GOP doing everything possible to convince a huge swath of this country that the 2020 election was illegitimate will not do long lasting damage,” hard disagree!

      

    So basically if Trump and the GOP do what the democrats just did, which was try to convince people that Trump wouldn’t have won except for Russian interference that would be a problem. lol

    Both parties are liars and the media is bought and paid to ago along.

    We have much bigger problems.

    We have massive debts and deficits. We’ve made promises for pensions and healthcare that can not and will not be kept. We have an out of control money printing Fed. Western Europe is in decline, Chinese communists that use “re education camps”, persecute people for religion, use slave labor, purge ethnic groups, and suppress free press and free speech etc… are buying and selling Hollywood, the NBA, US politicians and businessmen etc.. all while they gut out economy of jobs and market share, make moves on Hong Kong, have their eyes on Taiwan and South Korea. I could go on, but the demise of Trump and any bullshit that comes with it is the good news.

  122. So now Parler, yet another ideological echo chamber, is booming. Which means we’re at a point where the two hyped-up political tribes can’t even co-exist on Twitter.

    Time to figure out the way to divorce.

    Maria Bartiromo is actually leaving Twitter for Parler soon. I follow her on Twitter for business news. It’s not ready for prime time. However, the only reason it exists is the perception of a double standard. It wasn’t that people couldn’t get along. You can mute or block anyone you want. Twitter did this by being political.

    I’m not even sure why “divorce” is such an ugly thing to consider.

    We choose our friends, spouses, business partners etc.. based on common interests, common goals, common values, trust etc.. We compromise on the small stuff and everyone is fine despite small differences.

    But some differences are deal breakers. So we get a divorce, buy the partner out etc..

    You can compromise on whether tax rates for some individuals and businesses should be raised and by how much. But we are at the stage where the differences on economics and other issues are so vast, it’s hard to find the compromise that makes anyone happy. I doubt it will ever come to that, but if it did, I would be one of the few that would consider it very unfortunate (kind of like when a friend gets divorced) but maybe for the best.

  123. I do think the discourse has probably swung too far on Russ because he was awful in the playoffs and everyone has locked in on that, but that was post-Covid and with an injury. He definitely had a down year overall, but I can believe that a lot of it was adapting to a unique circumstance; certainly he improved a lot as the year went along up until the bubble. I think given his own team again he’d quite possibly go back to being similar to what he was in OKC, in which case the contract is still bad, but maybe not crushingly so. I think there’s a decent chance this could be the CP3 situation all over again – one renaissance season away from going from “untradeable” to a positive asset.

    I’d be sort of fine with taking him provided it was in a trade that treated him as a negative asset, but that’s basically impossible given the Rockets constraints – not only do they basically have no assets to send along with him, but if they’re still trying to contend (or maybe “contend”) they can’t be looking to just dump him, it needs to be a deal like the one they did last year where they get back another good player with a bad salary. I just don’t see a fit with the Knicks.

  124. He’s 32 and he has no jump shot to rely on as his legs age. He never before played below the rim. Never. There’s no “down year” talk. He’s aging. And badly. End thread.

  125. For any of you old enough to remember the days when rec.sports.basketball.pro was the hub of all online hoops discourse, The Ringer has a fun story about the glory days of Usenet, in which I make a shameful confession of having once been a fabulist.

  126. Yeah, I’m with Jowles here. Sure, Russ is 3 years younger than CP3, but his game is so reliant on his athleticism that its not going to age well. Maybe he can have one bounce back year but then there’s a season after that (and a player option for the season after that, which he’ll probably take if his play declines).

    He is not a pass first PG and he has no outside shot. I would much rather have CP3 and I really don’t want us to get CP3 either! But CP3 at least has that old man Jason Kidd vibe about him where he’s still going to be a useful player because of ball movement and his ability to hit outside shots.

    Russ in his prime was a badass no doubt. A complete terror who plays at 120 percent. I respect the hell out of him and what he did that first season after KD left OKC was truly incredible to watch. But its all athleticism, no outside shot, iso based offense. Its the opposite of what we need right now.

  127. So now Parler, yet another ideological echo chamber, is booming. Which means we’re at a point where the two hyped-up political tribes can’t even co-exist on Twitter.

    Ehhh, not surprised conservatives peeled off and made their own version of twitter. Racists and Q-Anon people kept having their accounts nuked for violating TOS; those people are addicted to posting online, they were always going to migrate somewhere. And the grifters will always follow them. It definitely ain’t ‘booming’ tho, the MAU and DAU #’s for parler are still trash.

    More interesting to me is that a number of conservatives are rejecting Fox News in favor of OANN. Fox ain’t even ideological enough for these people anymore. OANN has gone from a weird satellite news oddity to being one of the main news channels watched by our president and his fanbase. It’s crazy.

    Hopefully the rumors are true and Trump starts his own conservative news channel after he’s out of office. I wouldn’t mind seeing the conservative media landscape fracture a bit.

  128. I honestly don’t see a lot of trades out there for the Knicks except one that swaps Randle for a bad contract and draft assets.

    In the draft, I feel like the FO is going to be focused on Kira (since they won’t be able to trade up), either at 8 or in a trade down to grab an extra asset. For the next two picks, they’ll probably take either Stewart or Woodard at 27 and Quickley at 38.

  129. Alan:
    For any of you old enough to remember the days when rec.sports.basketball.pro was the hub of all online hoops discourse, The Ringer has a fun story about the glory days of Usenet, in which I make a shameful confession of having once been a fabulist.

    I read your Usenet mock draft post, as Knicks GM, and thought it to be loquaciously excellent. Among other things foreshadowing the departure of Riles. Your analysis ( sans metrics) was a precursor to KB posts.
    This begs the question, did you ever entertain the idea of being a sports writer/reporter?

  130. Agree that fracture and having essentially a Trump party and a more mainstream Conservative party is good overall. I believe there are many among the 70+M who would stay center. Will be interesting to see what Murdoch will do from a messaging/content standpoint.

  131. He’s aging badly and he lusts to continue to hog and chuck,(*) evincing no sense whatsoever about where he or his game currently stand. I think he might be literally the last player in the association I want on the Knicks. Absolute hardest of passes.

    (*) His complaints and “concerns” about the Rockets’ “culture” boil down to that — “I want the culture to be one where I get to hog and chuck.”

  132. This begs the question, did you ever entertain the idea of being a sports writer/reporter?

    Nope. Sportswriters can’t be fans: “No rooting in the press box,” and all of that. Also, way too much travel, plus reporting is something I’ve never had much skill for or interest in. Amateur sports coverage was as far as I was willing to go.

    I remember writing a really long Yankee prospect post once for the alt.baseball.yankees newsgroup, or whatever it was called, where I went on and on about what a promising player I found Dave Silvestri. As always, I am an idiot whose sports takes are not to be trusted.

  133. I want absolutely no part of Russ. That said, this Athletic piece did at least make me more sympathetic towards his reasoning for wanting to go:

    Westbrook, sources say, has made it known for quite some time now that he would like to see significant changes to the Rockets’ culture. Specifically, his desire for more team-wide accountability, discipline and structure have been the focus of talks with team officials. Throughout the season, Westbrook was the consistent presence who kept Harden accountable and the two close friends had several verbal exchanges that sources described as “tense, but needed.”

    Harden has thus far driven away Dwight, CP3, and now Russ. All of them have their own well-earned reputations for being difficult teammates, but I have to think of the words of Raylan Givens here: If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. You run into assholes all day? You’re the asshole.

  134. I read the “keeping Harden accountable” thing as “Harden’s chucking too much, I want to be the one chucking.” Westbrook thinking he has the standing to keep (superior) teammates “accountable” is among the reasons I want nothing to do with him.

  135. A couple of conservative friends tried Parler and they said it sucked. Let’s face it, liberals have the best memes.

    Stop triggering me with Russ talk.

    Thanks for posting that Ringer piece and shout out to The National, which was mentioned in it. Really liked that paper in its brief existence. And then gave its name to one of my favorite bands.

  136. It’s a bummer seeing the number of Knicks fans talking themselves into a Russ trade on social media. They even got netw3rk! Tortured-ass fanbase.

    There’s no way Leon Rose makes a Westbrook trade, right?

  137. Liberals never did talk radio well, and they bemoaned that for decades, but they do social media very well. There’s probably something worthy and telling to be gleaned from that, but I’d rather think about basketball.

  138. Russ to the Knicks makes zero sense for either team. I wonder if the Spurs would be a good fit for him? They have shooters, and Pop probably could maximize his skill set. Maybe Indiana or Orlando? There aren’t a ton of great fits out there, even if you believe he’s a net-positive player.

  139. where I went on and on about what a promising player I found Dave Silvestri.

    i went by myself to yankee stadium to watch sam militello’s debut against hte red sox (7 IP 1H 0ER) bc i was so convinced he was it. he had 11 more career starts.

  140. What scares me more than trading for Russell Westbrook is the very real possibility that the Knicks are convincing themselves that they could potentially trade for Harden at the deadline and land Giannis in free agency.

    If Rose calls Houston and asks about Harden and they say they want RJ Barrett, Mitchell Robinson, the #8 pick, the #27 pick, and both Dallas picks do you say no?

  141. i went by myself to yankee stadium to watch sam militello’s debut against hte red sox (7 IP 1H 0ER) bc i was so convinced he was it. he had 11 more career starts.

    My 7th grade self was absolutely convinced my Joba Chamberlain first start ticket stub was going to be priceless one day

  142. i went by myself to yankee stadium to watch sam militello’s debut against hte red sox (7 IP 1H 0ER) bc i was so convinced he was it. he had 11 more career starts.

    My best friend and I drove to the Stadium for Bob Wickman’s debut, and paid a scalper 20 bucks apiece for two tickets a few rows behind home plate. The early 90s: a very bad time to be a Yankee fan, but also a very affordable time to be a Yankee fan.

  143. Hey , I was at the Garden for Rick Carlisle’s Knicks debut: 21pts, 6asts, 9-12 shooting, 19.2gamescrore in 34 mins. I was like “Bianchi strikes gold!!!”. I saved my program. I started printing #3 New York Knicks Rick Carlisle jerseys to sell on 33rd st. I was gonna be rich!

    Carlisle followed that game up by going 20-61 for the rest of his career and was out of the league 158 minutes later…

    (I felt somewhat vidicated when, 14 years later, he won coach of the year his rookie coaching season. But the box of jerseys were moth eaten by then, so I couldn’t capitalize outside of Auburn Hills)

  144. My 7th grade self was absolutely convinced my Joba Chamberlain first start ticket stub was going to be priceless one day

    Remember the “gnats” playoff game in Cleveland in 2007? Poor Joba was getting assaulted!

    I’m still convinced the Indians had something to do with it, sort of like Red Auerbach turning up the heat in the visitors’ locker room at the original Boston Garden (which had no air conditioning)

  145. Don’t even get me started on those midges, guys. I’m still furious Torre didn’t pull the whole team off the field to protest the conditions.

  146. I would definitely say no to Harden but the biggest reason why is I just hate James Harden’s game and I would hate to have to root for him.

    Sure, he’d make us instantly good. But he’s also not young. Maybe Giannis wants to team up with him and we’d have a window for 2 years where we might be contenders. And sure, once you get someone like Giannis, Harden becomes easier to replace. But I’d like us to become a good franchise that is year in and year out a playoff team for a sustained period of time. I’d almost rather have that than a small window at a championship. And I want at least some of that good team to be homegrown talent. I’m all for big name FA hunting once we’re in a position to compete, but I want us to grow on our own first.

    Plus, Harden is my least favorite superstar ever.

  147. A commonly espoused theory that makes absolutely no sense but *feels* true is the midges are what derailed Joba’s career

  148. >>> i went by myself to yankee stadium to watch sam militello’s debut against hte red sox (7 IP 1H 0ER) bc i was so convinced he was it. he had 11 more career starts. <<<

    I'll never forget the day I took public transportation from Long Island all the way to the Bronx just to catch a glimpse of the Japanese Nolan Ryan, Hideki Irabu, in his first MLB start.

  149. Westbrook has consistently trended downward the last few years. He was barely above average last year during the regular season. He was Knox-level bad in the playoffs.

    I’d put it to a coin flip if Westbrook puts together an above average season ever again.

  150. Isn’t there a 5 team trade out there where Paul goes to Philly, Westbrook goes to Orlando, and New York ends up with Horford, Aaron Gordon, and a few 2021/2022 picks?

    (Horford and Gordon both have descending salaries, and Horford is only partially guaranteed in ‘22-‘23.)

  151. I think that if Westbrook were to come to the Knicks, you’d see his BPM go up simply because his touches will increase quite a bit, and he has always been a more-than-willing passer. Between 2013 and 2019, he ranked 4th, [injured], 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, and 1st in total assists. Last year, he fell to 17th simply by playing with Harden, who has led the league in FTA in all but one of the last 8 seasons, this past year beating out #2 Giannis by a margin of 800 to 629, and who led #2 CJ McCollum (???) in FGA by a margin of 1514 to 1356. When you’re talking one-man offensive schemes, it’s no surprise that there’s simply no equal to James Harden out there.

    So yeah, Westbrook will end up somewhere else, probably, and he’ll probably get right back near the top of the AST leaderboard, which is a good thing, but it won’t fix his shooting. Over the last three years, he’s had a TS%+ of 94, 90 and 95, which is dreadful when you’re talking about a guy who ranked 1st, 8th and 8th in total FGA.

    And of course, he’s aging. There is no stopping that train. Anything you get next year, free of Harden’s weird black-hole space-time distortion, is likely the very best you are going to see from him. And then add two more years and $90M to that.

  152. westbrook coming here is in the long tradition of knick/ranger deals of “stars” on the tail end of the career or fast approaching the tail end due to injury, etc…..going from memory…rolando blackman, kiki vandeweghe, stevie francis…tracy mcgrady…kidd…billups..amare…and on and on and on..

    regardless of the regime…its in our dna to bring westbrook here..

    my most memorable yankee game by myself…I was bored one summer day and wanted to see Jim Abbott pitch in person…that was the game that he threw a no hitter…there was so few people there…i remember going down the the field level section at the end of the game to watch the ninth and the ushers didn’t even bother me…back in that day with George…they were usually real assholes about that…

  153. Also, I definitely had Joba as a first ballot hall of Famer after his first year and 60 IP or whatever it was

  154. That’s awesome. My uberfan legally-blind cousin got to “see” the Doc Gooden no-no. Must be a pretty amazing experience when you get most of your experience from crowd reaction.

  155. “pepper
    November 12, 2020 at 4:46 pm

    westbrook coming here is in the long tradition of knick/ranger deals of “stars” on the tail end of the career or fast approaching the tail end due to injury, etc…..going from memory…rolando blackman, kiki vandeweghe, stevie francis…tracy mcgrady…kidd…billups..amare…and on and on and on..”

    Rolando came to NY as a ring-chaser, so he doesn’t fit. And it wasn’t so much McGrady the Knicks acquired but his contract, so he doesn’t fit either. And Amar’e was 27 and clearly still in his prime, not the tail end when he was signed. And Billups was a throw-in to the Melo trade, not a focal point. And Kidd was brought in (and paid the appropriate amount) to be a role player.

    That said, Westbrook would certainly join the likes of Francis, Glen Rice, and Larry Johnson, and to a lesser extent guys like Antonio Davis, Jalen Rose, Malik Rose, Bargnani, and Camby’s return.

  156. Even it if hasn’t happened super recently in team history, bringing in a clearly declining star with an albatross contract in a desperate bid at legitimacy just feels like the Knicksiest thing that could happen this offseason, and we’re all far too beaten down by Dolan’s Razor to not be terrified by the idea.

  157. We are allowed to have in-person workouts with only 10 prospects. Who we work out doesn’t definitely correlate with who we’re likely to draft, but it’s interesting. So far, we only know of four of those players:

    Obi Toppin
    Kira Lewis Jr.
    Saddiq Bey
    Devin Vassell

    Bey seems like someone we’d only take in a trade-down situation. I still don’t want Toppin. Wouldn’t mind Lewis or Vassell, depending on how the lottery unfolds (and also depending on if we take them at 8 or lower).

  158. okay you knick maniacs – stop it now…

    don’t worry about a thing, every little thing is going to be alright…

  159. Was just listening to Spencer Pearlman, who really bothers me, and it made me wonder who everyone’s favorite draft prognosticators are…

    I might have to pick Vecenie. He can be annoying, but he seems pretty objective and really tries to dig for info.

  160. We didn’t work out Hayes but apparently Covid played a role.

    Amare was still good and somewhat young but those uninsurable knees…

  161. As a long-time Yankee despiser who was grooming his 8yo son to hate the Yanks, Celts and Pats as much as I do, the Joba “midge” game was most enjoyable. It was like a 10 plagues moment for diehard Mets fans, especially in that it occurred when Yankees fans were at an insufferable level of arrogance, crowing about the merits of A-Rod, Clemens and Giambi…and future HOFer Joba. Ahhhh…good times, good times…

  162. Z-man:
    As a long-time Yankee despiser who was grooming his 8yo son to hate the Yanks, Celts and Pats as much as I do,the Joba “midge” game was most enjoyable. It was like a 10 plagues moment for diehard Mets fans, especially in that it occurred when Yankees fans were at an insufferable level of arrogance, crowing about the merits of A-Rod, Clemens and Giambi…and future HOFer Joba. Ahhhh…good times, good times…

    nah…good times was the 2000 world series…now those were good times as a queens resident walking the streets with my yankee gear on…I savored that series win like none other dude…

  163. I was as intense a Yankee fan as there was growing up, and the 1978 and 1996 World Series victories were pure joy. But once the parade of asshole free agents started (Kevin Brown, Giambi, Clemens, A-Rod,etc.) I became less and less of a fan and now I could care less whether they win or lose.

    (Although Mariano Rivera is still one of my favorite athletes ever, both for his achievements and incredible class.)

  164. pepper: nah…good times was the 2000 world series…now those were good times as a queens resident walking the streets with my yankee gear on…I savored that series win like none other dude…

    Fair enough. Full disclosure, I actually rooted for the Yanks vs. the Braves in 1996…hated the Braves and the Yanks had a bunch of ex-Mets and none of the assholes that d-mar referred to. It wasn’t long before I had a George Bailey shaking Mr. Potter’s hand moment…ugh!

    Speaking of which, why has no one made the connection between Donald Trump and Mr. Potter? Would have made a great Lincoln Project ad…

  165. Berman is saying the Knicks are weighing wether to take Vassell or Kira at #8 or trade down to get one of them a few selections later along with an asset.

    Bondy says the FO is interested in selecting Pritchard.

  166. I’m okay with trading down to get Vassell + an asset if the alternative is the FO getting thirsty over Obi’s highlight reel and being in the position to pull the trigger on him. Obi might turn out fine, but I’m a bit leery of how his game translates in the NBA. You can do worse than an athletic power forward with a decent three point shot, but I just don’t see him getting all those bully ball shots in the big leagues.

  167. Because phrasing is important (even if you’re not Sterling Archer), here’s exactly what Berman wrote:

    Sources have indicated the Knicks are weighing whether either Vassell or Lewis are worthy of the eighth pick or if they should trade down a few notches to gain an asset, with the chance to still nab either of them.

    The Knicks’ priority in this draft is to take a scoring point guard, with southpaw sensation Killian Hayes high on their radar, but that’s not a given. Hayes may not even be there.

    So it’s more that they’re trying to figure out if either of those guys is worth the 8th pick, rather than them being comfortable with them at 8 right now, but exploring trade-down options anyway.

    Hayes is the guy I’d like most(*), and it feels like we can probably get one of Vassell or Lewis with a small trade down, but I wouldn’t hate either guy at 8, and they’d be much better than a lot of other options.

    (*) As discussed earlier in the thread, my sports opinions are terrible and should be ignored. I don’t even know why anyone reads them. Or why I write them.

  168. Draft philosophy: PG, Wing, Big. Don’t draft anyone that can’t shoot in the 1st round. I wouldn’t trade up. I would trade down for more later 1st round picks. Lots of holes to fill.

    I’m a huge Yankee fan; a partial plan owner for about two decades. One of my earliest memories is crying hysterically when someone stole my Mickey Mantle card on my 7th birthday. I’ve attended 3 games where my beloved Bombers walked off the field carrying the trophy (2009 – Hideki Matsui drives in 6 to down the Phillies, 1996 – Wade Boggs riding on the police horse, 1977 – Reggie Jackson 3 HRs). I slept out 2 nights at the stadium for that 1977 game 6 ticket – all I could afford. As a long suffering Knick fan and a despondent Jets fan, I thank God every day that I am a Yankee fan.

  169. ***Berman is saying the Knicks are weighing wether to take Vassell or Kira at #8 or trade down to get one of them a few selections later along with an asset.***

    Nbadraft.net has the Knicks passing over Kira with the 27th pick in favor of Zeke Nnaji. (And Kira going to the Lakers at #28).

  170. I just watched a mock draft on KnicksFanTV and a couple of observations. FIrst, the top vote-getter in the poll here was Halliburton. He was HATED by the viewers and there were hundreds. He got drafted 10th there by the Suns. They took
    #8 – Isaac Okoro
    #27 – Jahmi’Us Ramsey
    #38 – Immanuel Quickley
    I would be depressed if this is what the Knicks took. The Knicks have to go PG at #8 (Halliburton or Kira Lewis), backup center (one of Isaiah Stewart, Killian Tillie or Daniel Oturu) at #27 and a 3&D wing at #38 .

    Who here likes Okoro at 8?

  171. I think it’s a given that they would take Obi at 8 if he’s there. After that, they probably prefer one of Vassell/Lewis. Getting a good shooter is a must, so Okoro is out. Okongwu and Williams are probably out. It’s hard to tell where they stand with Killian, although I can see Thibs preferring Kira, who is kind of a D.Rose lite.

    Personally, I like the idea of Haliburton, but maybe it’s a given that he will go earlier than 8 now.

  172. I’m the odd Mets fan who bears no ill will towards the Yankees. My dad’s from the Bronx and is a Yankee fan and my mom is from Queens and is a Mets fan. My brother’s a Yankee fan, I’m a Mets fan. We all pull for whichever NY team happens to be making a run. Usually the Yankees. The Yankees were actually my first love but we had WOR in Florida in the 80’s when the Doc/Darryl/Keith/Carter Mets were a thing and I’ve never turned back.

    The teams I really hate are the Braves, Nats, Phillies, and Red Sox. I have a lot of friends from Boston and they’re insufferable with their sports fandom so fuck every Boston team.

  173. okoro is not good… and there is almost certainly a better player available at 8… ramsey isn’t terrible with the other first…

  174. I’d actually be thrilled if we traded down, picked up an asset, and drafted Kira or Vassell. It shows an intelligence and solid player evaluation that I don’t think I’ve seen from the Knicks.

  175. GoNYGoNYGo, I was also at Game 6 in 1996! We were sitting in the loge section, and when Girardi hit that triple off of Maddux, the crowd reaction made the place shake so badly, I worried the whole loge might collapse. Boggs was not an all-time Yankee, but him on that horse is an all-time Yankee moment.

    That’s the only WS clincher I ever got to attend, but I was also in the building for the Mr. November game, which was nuts and glorious in its own way.

  176. Worth noting re: Kira that Thibs has done very well with that archetype of guard – obviously Rose but even guys like Nate Robinson, Jeff Teague, and John Lucas III are undersized to a greater/lesser degree but super quick – and remember the reports about him being very high on DSJ prior to the draft.

    (DSJ is really the forgotten man — wonder whether Johnny Bryant can bring anything out of him)

  177. Barf, barf, barf. From Macri’s newsletter today:

    Remember two days ago, when I said I’d heard nothing to make me think any inquiries the Knicks have made into Russell Westbrook were anything more than due diligence? Yeah…soooo…things have apparently changed.

    According to multiple league sources, the Knicks have discussed the specifics of a package that would bring the 2016-17 NBA MVP to New York. The sources indicate that none of the Knicks’ key young pieces are on the table (read: RJ, Mitch, and as far as I can tell, Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina) nor will they be. The same goes for any of New York’s own draft picks. I’ve heard Julius Randle would be going, along with some sort of draft asset – maybe 27, maybe 38, maybe one of the Dallas picks – but I can’t confirm which.

    I want to emphasize that this does not – I repeat NOT – mean that a deal is on the verge of happening. I don’t know how many stages are involved in NBA deal-making, but the impression I’m getting is that things have now moved past Stage 1.

  178. Alan:
    GoNYGoNYGo, I was also at Game 6 in 1996! We were sitting in the loge section, and when Girardi hit that triple off of Maddux, the crowd reaction made the place shake so badly, I worried the whole loge might collapse. Boggs was not an all-time Yankee, but him on that horse is an all-time Yankee moment.

    That’s the only WS clincherI ever got to attend, but I was also in the building for the Mr. November game, which was nuts and glorious in its own way.

    I was in the Bleachers. It was the first WS I took my sons to. They were 7 and 8 at the time. Do you remember the Tomahawk Chop? Well the bleachers put lyrics to it. That is when I taught my sons the rule “You can hear that word but you must not say it”. There was no way to keep my boys from hearing the chant “F*** the Braves”. After the win, walking through the streets of the Bronx was surreal with everyone hanging out of their apartments in the Bronx banking wooden spoons on their frying pans.

  179. ess-dog:
    I think it’s a given that they would take Obi at 8 if he’s there. After that, they probably prefer one of Vassell/Lewis. Getting a good shooter is a must, so Okoro is out. Okongwu and Williams are probably out. It’s hard to tell where they stand with Killian, although I can see Thibs preferring Kira, who is kind of a D.Rose lite.

    Personally, I like the idea of Haliburton, but maybe it’s a given that he will go earlier than 8 now.

    That’s what’s frustrating. That’s not what happened. For reference, here’s the 38 picks they did….
    1 MIN – Anthony Edwards
    2 GS – James Wiseman
    3 CHA – LaMelo Ball
    4 CHI – Deni Avija
    5 CLE – Obi Toppin
    6 ATL – Devin Vassell
    7 DET – Killian Hayes
    8 NYK – Isaac Okoro (I would have taken Lewis or Haliburton)
    9 WAS – Kira Lewis
    10 PHX – Tyreese Haliburton
    11 SAN – Omyeka Okogwu
    12 SAC – Aaron Nesmith
    13 NO – Tyrese Maxe
    14 BOS – Precious Achiuwa
    15 ORL – RJ Hampton
    16 POR – Patrick Williams
    17 MIN – Saddiq Bey
    18 DAL – Desmond Bane
    19 BKL – Jalen Smith
    20 MIA – Tyrell Terry
    21 PHI – Cole Anthony
    22 DEN – Josh Green
    23 UTA- Robert Woodward II
    24 MLW – Malachi Flynn
    25 OKC – Aleksej Pokusevski
    26 BOS – Leandro Bolmaro
    27 NYK – Jahmi’us Ramsey (I would take Stewart)
    28 LAL – Cassius Winston
    29 TOR – Grant Riller
    30 BOS – Jaden McDaniels
    31 DAL – Isaiah Joe
    32 CHA – Daniel Oturo
    33 MIN – Isaiah Stewart II
    34 PHI – Nico Mannion
    35 SAC – Jordan Nwora
    36 PHI – Killian Tille
    37 WAS – Xavier Tillman Sr
    38 NYK – Imanuel Quickley (Redundant if they take Ramsey but good if they took Stewart)

  180. Given Dolan’s proclivity for stars and striking out on the 2019 FA class, it’s hard to see Dolan not stepping in to make sure he gets a star after the Nets got two. If Westbrook is available in trade, the odds are he will become a Knick. The question is what will be the price paid.

    Hopefully. I’m wrong, but it just seems so Knicksey.

  181. Third generation Yankees fan (grandpa was a huge Roger Peckinpaugh supporter when they played at the Polo Grounds).

    Loved going to the stadium in the 80’s. My dad and I would park on the street by the ball fields, lock whatever ridiculous anti-car theft device we had on hand – Chapman lock or The Club, or some Club knockoff from a flea market and walk along River Avenue. We would always check to see how many tour buses were parked outside in the Kinney lots to get a sense of the crowd. Most games were sparsely attended, but you had Rickey Henderson, Dave Winfield and Don Mattingly in their primes plus Ron Guidry and a ton of really likable players. During those years the Yanks averaged 20-30k fans per game – it really felt like you had the run of the building and we would move around as the game headed into the later innings.

    If it was a day game we would head into Manhattan and go to V and T pizza on 110th and Amsterdam and talk to the owner and waiters who had watched the game on TV. Good times.

  182. I agree about Dolan and the Knicks. He cares more about eyes on MSG-TV than he does about winning. I think the Knicksiest thing he does is trade for Westbrook. A different angle has them trading for CP3 and signing Melo and Tyson Chandler. I’m resigned to the fact that they are not going to do the right thing. This is like hoping for the lesser of two evils.

  183. Trading next year’s Dallas pick would be really dumb. Its unprotected! Sure, Dallas is probably a playoff team but KP is going to miss a few weeks to start the season. They’re one Doncic twisted ankle away from not making the playoffs! The west is going to be tough. Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Rockets w/ Harden, Utah…all pretty much a lock.

    Phoenix is on the rise, Minny with Towns and Russell could be a tough team, Memphis with Ja, NO with Zion.

    The West is TOUGH and Dallas could easily be a decent team and not make the playoffs. And if Doncic misses a significant chunk of time (not that I’m wishing that but its always a possibility)…they could easily miss the playoffs.

    I guess the further out Dallas pick might be more palpatable because Doncic will be in his prime prime by then.

  184. Anyone who thinks taking Russell Westbrook and the worst contract in the NBA onto this team is a good idea absent a bunch of assets coming with him should be immediately fired because they don’t know a fucking thing about professional basketball

  185. … but KP is going to miss a few weeks to start the season.

    At the very least. Within two years both his knees have been under the surgeon’s scalpel.

  186. So if we trade Randle and next year’s Dallas pick for Westbrook, and you factor in the cap flexibility that allowed for the Morris and Randle deals, you could argue that we essentially traded KP for Westbrook, the 2020 #27, and the Mav’s top-10 protected 2023. I suppose that would make the final result smell more like a dumpster full of rotting fish carcasses than a mountain of burning tires, but whatever. I doubt that it’s gonna happen.

  187. IF one of the following was GOING to happen, and you get to choose which one, which would you chose? (All of them are in exchange for salary filler, not Knicks assets).

    1) Knicks acquire Russell Westbrook (age 32, $41.3; age 33, $44.2; age 34, $47.1).

    2) Knicks acquire John Wall (age 30, $41.2; age 31, $44.3; age 32, $47.4) + the #10 pick in this year’s draft + swap rights rights in 2021.

    3) Knicks acquire Tobias Harris (age 28, $34.4; age 29, $36.0; age 30, $37.6; age 31, $39.2) + the #21 and the #34 picks in this year’s draft + Philadelphia’s own 2022 minimally protected pick.

    4) Knicks acquire Al Horford (age 34, $27.5; age 35, $27.0; age 36, $26.5 ($21.5 guaranteed)) + Josh Richardson (age 27, $10.9; age 28, $11.6) + Zhaire Smith + the #21 pick in this year’s draft + our old 2021 second rounder.

  188. Has it ever happened before that somebody who was so obviously a negative asset demanded a trade? Normally when a guy demands a trade it’s unfortunate but at least you recoup some assets. Being in a position where a guy demands a trade and you’re in a position of having to give up picks just to get off of him is a double whammy. Is there any precedent?

  189. I would prefer Westbrook on the Knicks forever to Trump in the white house until 2024, and I hate Westbrook as a player.

    Re the draft there was talk that LaMelo bombed his interviews with teams, but he looks good here, articulate and intense. I’d trade the 8th and an asset for him (not Mitch or RJ).

    Of the other PGs only Kira excites me.

  190. See, that’s why I think the John Wall trade is the best option. Yes, it’s a lot of money, but it comes with a top-10 pick. Plus, the dude is younger than Westbrook, VERY well-rested, and might come back and be at least decent a point guard. But honestly, I don’t think Washington could sell that trade to their fans.

  191. 1) Knicks acquire Russell Westbrook (age 32, $41.3; age 33, $44.2; age 34, $47.1).

    2) Knicks acquire John Wall (age 30, $41.2; age 31, $44.3; age 32, $47.4) + the #10 pick in this year’s draft + swap rights rights in 2021.

    3) Knicks acquire Tobias Harris (age 28, $34.4; age 29, $36.0; age 30, $37.6; age 31, $39.2) + the #21 and the #34 picks in this year’s draft + Philadelphia’s own 2022 minimally protected pick.

    4) Knicks acquire Al Horford (age 34, $27.5; age 35, $27.0; age 36, $26.5 ($21.5 guaranteed)) + Josh Richardson (age 27, $10.9; age 28, $11.6) + Zhaire Smith + the #21 pick in this year’s draft + our old 2021 second rounder.

    Probably Wall because of the pick — there’s also a good chance he will be an accidentank commander, and he’s used to playing for a shit team anyway, unlike Westbrook. I like Zhaire Smith and a #21 but it’s not nearly enough to take on those players. I think you need a top-10 pick to take on the Horford contract.

    Trading next year’s Dallas pick would be really dumb. Its unprotected! Sure, Dallas is probably a playoff team but KP is going to miss a few weeks to start the season. They’re one Doncic twisted ankle away from not making the playoffs! The west is going to be tough. Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Rockets w/ Harden, Utah…all pretty much a lock.

    Porzingis isn’t the wildcard — he’s basically a slight plus for them. As much as I don’t want a Doncic injury to happen, it would almost certainly land them in the lottery, and that’s when things get interesting.

    Unprotected picks shouldn’t be traded unless they’re bringing in a legit superstar (like Giannis or Doncic or Zion right now) while maintaining enough assets to make role player moves, OR adding a 2nd or 3rd superstar to a contending roster.

    Remember when the 2017 53-29 Celtics won the draft lottery with Brooklyn’s unprotected pick from the 2013 Pierce/Garnett trade? That’s what a good franchise…

  192. Has it ever happened before that somebody who was so obviously a negative asset demanded a trade?

    Are we talking Westbrook? If so, a reminder that just one offseason ago he was traded for like 2 picks and 2 swaps. All firsts, IIRC. I said at the time that Morey had no incentive to not sell the farm for a win-now move, and then move out of Houston and set up shop somewhere else. That’s exactly what happened. Houston is a fucking mess.

  193. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Are we talking Westbrook? If so, a reminder that just one offseason ago he was traded for like 2 picks and 2 swaps. All firsts, IIRC. I said at the time that Morey had no incentive to not sell the farm for a win-now move, and then move out of Houston and set up shop somewhere else. That’s exactly what happened. Houston is a fucking mess.

    I think a significant portion of the draft assets that went from Houston to OKC in that trade were due to treating CP3 as a negative asset at the time, but it’s hard to know exactly how to split that. The truth is the rule is always “it only takes one idiot” and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s at least one team out there that is prepared to give up something for Westbrook; I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the Knicks. But this has to be among the all-time most likely trade demands to end up with the team telling the player that unfortunately they weren’t even able to give him away.

  194. With his contract, Westbrook is a negative asset at this point. Problem is, if you insist on acquiring him, he’s going to get all pissy and snarly if the acquiring team signals through the trade terms that it thinks his value is negative. So you have to give away at least some asset to let him save face. Knicks have at least one “face saving” asset — the 27 pick they got from the Clippers.

    Acquiring the guy is pointless and stupid; acquiring him in his pissy and snarly form is pointless-er and stupider. Leaves you in a bit of a bind, which is why the right answer is to just sprint away and let him be someone else’s problem.

  195. We are going to be whipsawed like crazy for the next 5 days, so I’m not going to fret about trade proposals until something happens.

  196. DRed:
    Bondy is reporting that Thibs wants to win now, so we fucked up that hire.

    The Knicks under Dolan have always been about winning now. You get three years to produce or you are gone.

  197. I will say this about Westbrook…if he stays reasonably healthy, he’s still one of the most exciting players in the league and would like the Garden on fire. He’s a Jordan-level athlete, so it’s not inconceivable that he will still be a very good player for the next 2 years.

  198. Russ hasn’t been very good in like 3 years, but I think there’s definitely a real chance he’ll be average/average+ for the next couple years. If the Rockets had assets to give along with Russ you could probably make an argument for acquiring him.

  199. 1) Knicks acquire Russell Westbrook (age 32, $41.3; age 33, $44.2; age 34, $47.1).

    2) Knicks acquire John Wall (age 30, $41.2; age 31, $44.3; age 32, $47.4) + the #10 pick in this year’s draft + swap rights rights in 2021.

    3) Knicks acquire Tobias Harris (age 28, $34.4; age 29, $36.0; age 30, $37.6; age 31, $39.2) + the #21 and the #34 picks in this year’s draft + Philadelphia’s own 2022 minimally protected pick.

    4) Knicks acquire Al Horford (age 34, $27.5; age 35, $27.0; age 36, $26.5 ($21.5 guaranteed)) + Josh Richardson (age 27, $10.9; age 28, $11.6) + Zhaire Smith + the #21 pick in this year’s draft + our old 2021 second rounder.

    Of these options, I think Harris has the best chance at rehabilitating some trade value. Even if Wall rebounds, it’s hard to see a contender trading for him because he’s so ball dominant. Harris also doesn’t present a playing time issue with any player we currently care about whereas Westbrook and Wall would pose problems for both RJ and any point guard we might draft. Horford has zero chance at rehabilitating trade value and plays the same position as our only good player.

    So I’d go with the Harris deal.

  200. That’s funny because I feel like Horford is a lot more likely to rehabilitate his value than Harris. Harris has never, at any point in his NBA career, been anywhere close to good enough for that contract. In his best seasons he was like a +2 BPM player. He’s an okay player who by dint of circumstance and bad management ended up with an insane deal.

    Horford on the other hand was a legit stud as recently as his last season in Boston (+5.1 BPM), who was put in an absolutely insane role last year playing primarily out of position on a horribly constructed roster. Get him back at C on a team with actual guard play and there’s at least a chance he could get back to something like himself. The problem, as you point out, is that the Knicks are not that team because we have Mitch, but in a vacuum I think that’s the best of the packages. Richardson was similarly badly miscast as a lead guard last year but in his proper role is still a very good player I think.

  201. If there’s anything the Knicks should do right now, it’s definitely go all-in on a “win now” strategy. Considering how we have exactly one good player.

  202. RE fandom: long story, but my mother was a life-long Red Sox fan, and my younger sister and one brother (the right wing nut I’ve mentioned on this forum a couple of times) become those, too. However, I and my youngest brother are Mets fans.

    The 1986 World Series was interesting, to say the least. My mother was none to happy with what happened in games 6 and 7.

    I sure hope these RW rumors are just exaggerated.

  203. Horford is not done but he’s not really useful for us. I’ve always felt that Harris was overhyped with the “when he finally turns the corner he will be a star” narrative. He’s just not that good. John Wall’s best year is not as good as any of Russ’s five seasons before coming to the Rockets, and he’s pretty spent. Oladipo is not the same player he was before the injuries. Blake is a 40-game player at best.

    The only two max guys who are reasonably likely to have a discernable impact on winning are Westbrook and CP3. Maybe Kevin Love, but he’s not a ball-dominant player. I’d prefer CP3 for 2 years, but if we could buy low on Westbrook and he stays reasonably healthy, it wouldn’t be the end of the world.

    One thing I should mention about Westbrook is that his eFG% was actually at a career high last year. It’s weird because he shot 25% from 3 on lower volume (for him). He actually led the league in 2-pt attempts and shot 51% from 2 but his FTr as well as rebound rates and assist rate went down significantly even though his usage went up. It’s hard to figure how much being a mismatch with D’Antoni and Harden accounted for the statistical anomalies.

    What he would do more than anything is take the ball out of RJ’s hands, which might be a good or a bad thing. But getting back into his ball-dominant #1 option role would likely improve his statistical profile.

  204. one of the tricky things about a bad team giving assets so they can commit to pay a 34 year old russell westbrook $47 million is how fucking stupid it is

  205. The one good thing about acquiring Russell Westbrook would that we would know immediately that Leon Rose is fucking horrible and we can stop pretending that we’re going to win anything and just revert back to our comfortable old personas as miserable shit-talking cynical curmudgeons.

    It’s like a comfy pair of old sweatpants at this point

  206. one of the tricky things about a bad team giving assets so they can commit to pay a 34 year old russell westbrook $47 million is how fucking stupid it is

    I think I may be having a bad influence on you.

    From you, I would normally expect some detailed analysis of the salary vs. the win production and where we are in our rebuild. Someone like me would just call them assholes and go back to playing horses for the rest of the afternoon . I’m impressed. You seem to have mastered both approaches. :-)

  207. JK47: It’s like a comfy pair of old sweatpants at this point

    You mean comfy except for the strangling elastic around the ankles?

  208. ptmilo: one of the tricky things about a bad team giving assets so they can commit to pay a 34 year old russell westbrook $47 million is how fucking stupid it is

    Sugar-coating galactically stupid transactions is a big part of what we do here…

  209. If there’s anything the Knicks should do right now, it’s definitely go all-in on a “win now” strategy. Considering how we have exactly one good player who threatens to foul out each game.

    Fixed.

  210. Just playing moronic GM’s advocate, maybe the Knicks braintrust is trying to recreate the 2000-01 Sixers…one extremely ball-dominant low-efficiency chucker surrounded by low-usage high-efficiency defensive players…that could work, right? Right??

  211. getting back to the main point of this blog hollinger today recommended the knicks offer frank a 4yr
    $25-30m extension with an 8pct declining structure

  212. Guys, Alan Hahn thinks Westbrook might not be a terrible idea and he is better on tv than Wally Sczerbiak despite the fact they look surprisingly similar.

    It’s truly knicksy, you have to give the idea it’s due.

  213. Argh:

    Marc Stein
    @TheSteinLine
    The Knicks are on the short list of viable trade destinations for Houston’s Russell Westbrook, league sources say

    If the Knicks prove willing to absorb the $130+ million left on Westbrook’s contract to make him their centerpiece, there is a trade to be made

    They have weighed it

    This would just be so so dumb.
    If it does happen, we should get at least Houston’s 2021 pick which is least favorable amongst Houston/Miami/OKC (notable – if the Rockets jump into the top 4 then they keep the pick from OKC — we should get that pick with no protection if we agree to take on Westbrook – meaning we get either Miami’s pick (likely 20s) or Houston’s pick (top 4), as well as a pick swap in 2022 (possibly the double draft).

  214. It’s more like…

    The Knicks under Dolan have always been about winning now. You get three years to produce or do terrible moves in an attempt to win now and then you are gone.

  215. We are going to be whipsawed like crazy for the next 5 days, so I’m not going to fret about trade proposals until something happens.

    Spot on. This is the time of the year for trade rumors, I’m giving Rose the benefit of the doubt until a trade actually happens.

  216. Every new Knicks front office has The Move. You know, the one that frees you from any delusions they might represent a change in the way we do things here. Phil Jackson’s Derrick Rose trade. Steve Mills’ THJ signing. Scott Perry’s whatever the hell happened last offseason.

    Even if it’s not the first unwise move they make (Phil Jackson had pretty dumb transactions pre-Rose trade too), it’s The One that seals the deal for you.

    Looks like Leon Rose is going to do us the favor of getting it out of the way early.

  217. I just hope we trade for DeRozan too.

    Imagine this dream lineup: Westbrook, DeRozan, Barrett, Toppin, Mitch.

  218. I like how Begley is reporting the only reason the Knicks are hesitating is, “The club has some extra first-rounders over the next few seasons and some young players with promise, but wants to retain enough pieces to eventually make a competitive trade offer for another star.”

    So, you know, they will trade their picks and young players, but maybe for some other guy.

  219. The lone benefit to having Westbrook in a Knicks uniform is how much the city is going to love him and how being a Knick will make him the biggest fish in town making Durant and Kyrie #2 and #3. Just knowing how much that would piss those two off makes it worth considering.

    Betting on Westbrook is a bad bet, but if I were to make ANY sense of it, it’s that the Knicks are looking to put Westbrook in a situation where he recoups some value and you flip him to another contender for a haul. Let’s say our starting five next year looks like this:

    Westbrook
    Bullock
    Barrett
    Stretch Four Of Your Choice
    Robinson

    In this situation you get triple double Russ and you let the “superstars can’t play with Harden” narrative run its course. Maybe Milwaukee gets desperate and flips us something real at the deadline so they can run Westbrook, Giannis, Middleton, and Lopez in the playoffs. Maybe a smaller market team like Orlando wants to push their chips in and offers something real for a “superstar” in Westbrook like Markelle Fultz. If I were the GM of the Knicks, I’m really looking at OKC and Miami did last season and wondering if I could get the Jimmy Butler/Chris Paul effect from Westbrook.

    For me, the answer is a hard no. Westbrook isn’t as good as those two to me and I struggle to see how he makes my young guys better players or my city a more desirable location for free agents. You let Michael Jordan trade his life away for Jordan Brand’s premier athlete, and you wait for James Harden to become available just so you can use your assets to jack up the price on whichever Atlantic Division team ends up with him.

  220. That’s funny because I feel like Horford is a lot more likely to rehabilitate his value than Harris. Harris has never, at any point in his NBA career, been anywhere close to good enough for that contract. In his best seasons he was like a +2 BPM player. He’s an okay player who by dint of circumstance and bad management ended up with an insane deal.

    It has more to do with their positions/playing styles and ages. I agree Horford in his prime was a lot more productive than Harris ever has been, but Harris could theoretically fit in on literally any team, and while Horford has a wider skillset than most centers, it’s still pretty unlikely a contender would want to pay him all that money with how easy it is to get a productive center. He’s also so old it’s simply hard to see him turning it around for that reason alone.

  221. it’s that the Knicks are looking to put Westbrook in a situation where he recoups some value and you flip him to another contender for a haul

    There’s just no chance this is the plan dude, and if it is it’s very stupid. There’s only one New York Knicks and the Knicks can’t trade with them because they themselves are the Knicks.

  222. How many contracts can the knicks absorb? Can they get Wesbrook for just salary filler and still acquire Blake Griffin, or Mike Conley, or Nic Batum, or some other declining contract? If so, there could be an interesting Isiah-like hybrid system at play where NY brings in a lot of over-priced vets while at the same time re-stocking the cupboards. Isiah’s model of using Dolan’s willingness to spend money wasn’t poorly conceived, it was just poorly executed. With shorter max contracts now, it could work out over a 3-4 year period. (But, that’s just a silvery-lining way of looking at what will most likely be 8-10 years of further ineptitude:)

  223. Hmm there’s also this:

    The Knicks and Thunder have reportedly had preliminary trade talks on a deal that would send Dennis Schroder to New York, via @LeigonHoopsRoss

  224. my company had a launch event yesterday. If you’re curious: http://dock.is/onevideo

    best of luck KnickerBloggerPowerTankings with the launch…i bet you all have been working like crazy…

    did you get a chance to be in the vid? if so, i wanna guess which person you are :)

  225. Same guy dropped this bomb, too (he apparently was the first to break the KD/Kyrie to the Nets news):

    Warriors and Cavs have held talks on a deal that sends Kevin Love to Golden State.

    Draymond Green would be sent to a 3rd team, per league source.

  226. Is the idea to pick Wiseman with the second pick, I guess? So Wiseman at the 5, Love at the 4, Wiggins at the 3, Klay at the 2 and Steph at the 1?

  227. Donnie Walsh:
    IF one of the following was GOING to happen, and you get to choose which one, which would you chose? (All of them are in exchange for salary filler, not Knicks assets).

    1) Knicks acquire Russell Westbrook (age 32, $41.3; age 33, $44.2; age 34, $47.1).

    2) Knicks acquire John Wall (age 30, $41.2; age 31, $44.3; age 32, $47.4) + the #10 pick in this year’s draft + swap rights rights in 2021.

    3) Knicks acquire Tobias Harris (age 28, $34.4; age 29, $36.0; age 30, $37.6; age 31, $39.2) + the #21 and the #34 picks in this year’s draft + Philadelphia’s own 2022 minimally protected pick.

    4) Knicks acquire Al Horford (age 34, $27.5; age 35, $27.0; age 36, $26.5 ($21.5 guaranteed)) + Josh Richardson (age 27, $10.9; age 28, $11.6) + Zhaire Smith + the #21 pick in this year’s draft + our old 2021 second rounder.

    Of those I would take Harris. The contract is horrible and I dont think he will have trade value at any point in the contract. However I like the pick haul and he is a somewhat useful modern player, with a reasonable 3P% that can fit at PF next to Robinson.

    I don’t believe will ever be again a useful NBA player, and it can get ugly when everybody realizes that. #10 is nice, but I think not enough

    With Westbrook I see delusions of having something akin to 2011 Bulls, and failing miserably. I envision him to have an up year, but after that, it can get ugly.

    Horford’s contract is much more palatable, but he is better suited playing C and I don’t think he would be a good PF for us. Not a great fit and not so much in terms of sweeteners, I would rather stay put.

  228. thenoblefacehumper: There’s just no chance this is the plan dude, and if it is it’s very stupid. There’s only one New York Knicks and the Knicks can’t trade with them because they themselves are the Knicks.

    You don’t think the barren wasteland that is the Detroit Pistons wouldn’t take 3 years of Russel Westbrook to sell season tickets and be a lower echelon playoff team much like the past decade’s Hornets and Magic were? If Milwaukee is faced with losing Giannis, maybe they give up a 2024 unprotected 1st round pick to pair Giannis with the 6’4” version of Giannis. Darryl freaking Morey traded Chris Paul for Russell Westbrook. Dallas traded 2 1st round picks for Kristaps Porzingis’ left knee. Shit happens in the NBA.

    But also, I definitely think all roads that lead to Russell Westbrook are varying degrees of bad. You’d have to be playing 4D chess in order to make that work out long term, and I don’t think the Knicks are tacticians of that level.

  229. Plus the Isiah plan involved sending out picks. It would be interesting to get a bunch of overpriced aging stars but also getting picks with them so we’re just constantly drafting a couple of first rounders a year.

  230. Well apparently PG pissed off the entire team after they lost in the playoffs.

    I just want to see OKC, Houston and The Clips continuously trading CP3, Russ and PG to each other.

  231. Something just doesn’t sit right about adding Russell Westbrook when we could be using that cap space to get real assets back. It feels inevitably toxic.

  232. These are all just rumors, but you have to forgive us Mets fans b/c of what we saw 2 years ago from BVW. Rumors were that he was interested in Robinson Cano (who the Mariners were wanting to DUMP) and Edwin Diaz, but was willing to give back something valuable (I remember Jeff McNeil was rumored) rather than just getting Diaz as the sweetener to take on a crappy contract of a player who, while he could still hit, was coming off a PD suspension, getting old, and still under contract for 5 years..

    No way, right? Then, the deal was announced and even worse than rumored, with 2 somewhat useful players (one of whom the Mariners later flipped for a couple of prospects) and 2 blue chip prospects going out.

    Rose probably wouldn’t do a deal for Westbrook that is that bad? Could he?

  233. “swiftandabundant
    November 13, 2020 at 3:59 pm

    the Isiah plan involved sending out picks. It would be interesting to get a bunch of overpriced aging stars but also getting picks with them so we’re just constantly drafting a couple of first rounders a year.”

    Isiah actually used Dolan’s willingness to pay luxury tax to bring in a lot of extra picks: the Mardy Collins pick and the David Lee pick (Malik Rose absorption); the Nate Robinson pick (Quentin Richardson absorption); and the Renaldo Balkman pick (Jalen Rose absorption). He was sloppy with outgoing picks (especially protections), but he was highly effective at renting out luxury tax space to keep the cupboards robust.

  234. I suggested to a bay area friend that Love might be worth a shot on the Warriors, but I was thinking more of like swapping Wiggins for Love, not Draymond.

  235. Like it or not PsychoRuss is still a Big Dog.
    Not the Best out there but not also a mercenary crapper like the bunch we got last summer for the same money.
    Is he the best way to go ?
    Definitely Not.
    Is he Disaster personified?
    I don’t think so.
    If you can get him cheaply without fucking your future you Do it.
    Otherwise you practice patience, continue to build your core and wait till a better big dog comes up.

  236. Al Horford a stud ?

    “Don’t take the brown acid.”
    I repeat:
    “Don’t take the brown acid.”

  237. I’ve reached the rationalization stage and if — a monumental, but not inconceivable, if — he can serve as the lure to an actual superstar it might be worth the swing. Players’ list of superstars aren’t necessarily ours and he’s probably still on those lists.

    I still don’t want him by any means, obviously.

  238. If you create a serious competitive team in NY i think every Good player will want to be here.
    Even with Westbrook.
    Except primadonas and softies.

  239. Owen:
    No one wants to play with Russell Westbrook. No one good anyway.

    So right. Although clips seem to want him at least according to rumors.

  240. Clippers played 20 seasons in LA before winning a single playoff series, only making the playoffs three times. Then they missed another five playoffs in a row. The Point God and Ballmer show up and they put together a perennial 50-win team. Kawhi Leonard picks the Clippers over the Lakers in free agency and Pandemic P lobbies to be traded there.

    The turnaround for the Knicks can happen, too, except James Dolan needs to cease to exist first. It can happen. Westbrook is not the fucking way.

  241. Knew Your Nicks:
    Like it or not PsychoRuss is still a Big Dog.
    Not the Best out there but not also a mercenary crapper like the bunch we got last summer for the same money.
    Is he the best way to go ?
    Definitely Not.
    Is he Disaster personified?
    I don’t think so.
    If you can get him cheaply without fucking your future you Do it.
    Otherwise you practice patience, continue to build your core and wait till a better big dog comes up.

    A 1.5 BPM is not a big dog. And none of our mercs are signed for $40M per year for the next 3 years.

    mase:

    No. The Clippers want to dump Paul George and Clipper management trading for him is not the same as a Free Agent willingly joining Westbrook.

  242. I’ve reached the rationalization stage and if — a monumental, but not inconceivable, if — he can serve as the lure to an actual superstar it might be worth the swing.

    Eeeeeeeee, Eeeeeeeee, c’mon man, there is still hope…crazier things have happened in the universe than the new york knicks suddenly not making incredibly dumb basketball decisions…

    have a little faith…russell westbrook will not be in a new york knick uniform this upcoming season…if he is – i’ll completely stop posting (for like a half a day maybe)…

    i’m thinking – the worse thing – that will occur this year is we do another round of 1 and 1’s on some mediocre players…

    who knows, maybe one out of three of this year’s draft choices can actually help contribute on an nba roster…

  243. Is the idea to pick Wiseman with the second pick, I guess? So Wiseman at the 5, Love at the 4, Wiggins at the 3, Klay at the 2 and Steph at the 1?

    It certainly sounds like it. I like the trade for golden state. I think Draymond might be over the hill and Could also have pissed some people off with his treatment if Durant. They will have a really scary team scoring wise. Their defense could be a worry, but I don’t think it would be horrible.

  244. If you find me another… poodle with 27,2 ppg, 7,9rebs, 7asts,1,6stls I’ll promise you to take it out for a walk

    Mercs costed us 73M in 19/20.
    they can cost us 60M if we re-sign them all in 20/21
    and 20M in 21/22 if we re-sign Julius

    Westbrook will cost 133M for the next 3years

  245. Do you genuinely think it would be a good idea to give up an asset to get Westbrook, Knew Your Knicks? With the mercs, they were pointless but we can also just move on from them, since nothing is forcing us to resign them. That wouldn’t be true of Westbrook, who is under contract for a ridiculous amount for a long time. Westbrook would be financially crippling in a way none of the mercs ever could be.

  246. As I’ve already written:
    “Is he the best way to go ?
    Definitely Not.”
    and also:
    “If you can get him cheaply without fucking your future you Do it.”

    Give up assets to get Westbrook would hurt me.
    But give up second round draft picks and mercs wouldn’t make me cry.

    Westbrook can also be traded.
    He is not shit… (yet)

    Mercenaries put you in “stand by” mode.
    Westbrook changes this status and makes you more competitive as a team.

  247. We picked up a 1st from Morris last year and didn’t give up the opportunity to sign a superstar.

    This year we should be down to ~$25 million between Bullock and Randle. We can sign talented players like Christian Wood or absorb a bad contract while 1st round picks.

    Next year, we can once again take a shot at a superstar, sign a solid player, or absorb a bad contract for assets.

    If we trade assets away for Westbrook, we lose that cap space for 3 full years and any opportunity to sign a younger player or acquire more 1sts. Westbrook is a quickly depreciating asset who put up the same BPM last year that Randle did 2 years ago. Moreover, Westbrook’s value decreases when paired with another superstar, making it improbable he ever makes us a contender.

    The mercs weren’t a brilliant move but all the truly crappy mercs will be off the books this year. Westbrook, even with a return to pre-Houston form, is worth half his salary for the next 3 years.

  248. geo: best of luck KnickerBloggerPowerTankings with the launch…i bet you all have been working like crazy…

    did you get a chance to be in the vid? if so, i wanna guess which person you are :)

    I’m the worst person in the video. Also I want to change my name to KBPowerTankings — seems fitting.

  249. Knew Your Nicks:
    As I’ve already written:
    “Is he the best way to go ?
    Definitely Not.”
    and also:
    “If you can get him cheaply without fucking your future you Do it.”

    Give up assets to get Westbrook would hurt me.
    But give up second round draft picks and mercs wouldn’t make me cry.

    Westbrook can also be traded.
    He is not shit… (yet)

    Mercenaries put you in “stand by” mode.
    Westbrook changes this status and makes you more competitive as a team.

    Westbrook fucks up our future just by having a 3 year/$133 million contract. I wouldn’t absorb him into cap space unless we got picks.

  250. “Westbrook fucks up our future just by having a 3 year/$133 million contract. I wouldn’t absorb him into cap space unless we got picks.”

    Is it possible that Westbrook had an “Off” year due to Harden/MDA and returns to Super form again this season on a new team ?
    Cause judging by his advanced stats prior to his Houston season he looks like a bad mfkr to me.

  251. Fuck the trade
    Let’s say that RW was a FA and wanted 133 for the next 3 years to come to NY.
    Would you sign him or not?

  252. Knew Your Nicks: Fuck the trade
    Let’s say that RW was a FA and wanted 133 for the next 3 years to come to NY.
    Would you sign him or not?

    Does he come with a 1st round draft pick?

  253. I guess it all comes to the Q:
    Is he right now and will he also still be an Asset or an Albatross for the next 3 years ?

  254. I’m the worst person in the video. Also I want to change my name to KBPowerTankings — seems fitting.

    okay, okay, i’m about to embarrass myself…i’m gonna guess it’s you at the 13 minute mark…i’m sensing a bit of an under the silver lake kind of vibe right there :)

  255. guess it all comes to the Q:
    Is he right now and will he also still be an Asset or an Albatross for the next 3 years ?

    Depends on who’s asking. If you’re Dolan and MSG, he’s a huge asset. Puts people in the seats (if we ever get there again), makes the Knicks relevant as click bait again, creates noise and emotion because he’s still really good (lots of pointz and other box score stats) and also really annoying and frustrating. He’d be a godsend from a business standpoint.

    If you’re into building a capable team that’s enjoyable to watch and eventually becomes a real contender, not so much.

  256. I would consider signing him to that contract if we had some semblance of a competitive team. We don’t.

    At best he fucks up our draft position and still isn’t worth the contract.

    I’d rather shove the ball into RJ Barrett’s hands and hope he takes a step forward. And I don’t particularly believe in RJ Barrett.

    Even if he puts up his pre-Houston numbers for 2021, he won’t for the next two years.

    It’s a no upside deal. I’m not even sure what the upside is. Is it ruining our draft position for 3 years or him sucking for 3 years? Either way, the answer is no.

  257. Early Bird:
    I would consider signing him to that contract if we had some semblance of a competitive team. We don’t.

    At best he fucks up our draft position and still isn’t worth the contract.

    I’d rather shove the ball into RJ Barrett’s hands and hope he takes a step forward. And I don’t particularly believe in RJ Barrett.

    Even if he puts up his pre-Houston numbers for 2021, he won’t for the next two years.

    It’s a no upside deal. I’m not even sure what the upside is. Is it ruining our draft position for 3 years or him sucking for 3 years? Either way, the answer is no.

    When it is painfully obvious that we hired a win-now coach and have a new GM that wants to prove he’s smarter than everyone else, I think it’s pretty safe to say that our draft position is going to be ruined one way or another…unless they stumble into a Phil-style accidentank.

    So a better question is: knowing full well that the FO is not going to care about the draft position implications and the coach is likely to win at least 30 games, does Westbrook make more sense than standing pat with Randle, DSjr and a likely low draft pick? I say no, he doesn’t make sense under any circumstances because his contract will be immovable by next year. But his effect on draft position is meaningless, given the team’s apparent prioroties.

  258. I’m not crazy for getting Westbrook too but I won’t raise the black flag if we get him cheaply.
    Still an optimist.

  259. geo: okay, okay, i’m about to embarrass myself…i’m gonna guess it’s you at the 13 minute mark…i’m sensing a bit of an under the silver lake kind of vibe right there :)

    You have successfully identified the worst person in the video :).

  260. get out of here – you were freaking awesome…you were able to pull off both techie and cool at the same time…i wish you the very best of luck with the venture…

    i’m sure you’ve been working like crazy…no doubt, lots more work ahead…

    thanks for sharing that and making me smile, it definitely made my night…

  261. Given the reality that NBA basketball is a business and not just for the fanciful machinations of a bunch of arm-chair non-stakeholders, the Westbrook trade makes something >zero sense. Like with Carmelo Anthony (and really all the Dolan moves over the past 20 years now), the value of the team will increase, and those financially invested in the team will be happy. The Knicks don’t operate in a VORP vacuum.

    Also, for the “do it right” crowd: the prior regime(s) stopped doing the #1 terrible thing, which is trading their first round picks. Bargnani was the dagger of that asinine policy (so, in a way, we are winning the Bargs trade, as it ended an era of blatant recklessness). The knicks have made a top-10 draft pick in every year since Phil Jackson was in the picture with the lone exception of the Bargnani owed pick. That is 5 straight years of what should be a solid rebuild by now. The problem is, they didn’t draft very well, and have little to show for it.

    Westbrook isn’t a good move from a strictly basketball standpoint. He will not lead NY to a championship. That is all but guaranteed. However, unlike Anthony, he (likely) won’t deplete the cupboards, and the Knicks could, if it’s done right, cobble together a vaguely interesting quasi-successful team a la 2013. That’s not the WORST scenario. But, yeah, the opportunity cost will always be on everybody’s minds, as some other team with cap space facilitates the Sixers quest for Paul, or the Wizard’s need to relieve themselves of Wall, and that team’s success is tangible around the same time the Knicks are paying 34 year old Russell Westbrook $50,000,000 to be league average on a 36 win team. #knicks.

  262. is it possible that westbrook becomes sprewell…and leads us to the promised land?

    full disclosure..i had one glass prosecco…two vermentino…one barolo…and now moving on to vin santo….trying hard to rationalize russ…

  263. I will say this about Russell Westbrook. Never in my life did I think I would see a player not named Oscar or LeBron average a fucking triple-double for 3 straight years. For a 6’3″ 200lb guard to do that is utterly mind-boggling, it can’t even be described. The dude will be shot out of an adrenaline cannon here in MSG, ESPECIALLY against the Nets. He will have Clyde as his mentor on how to take NYC by storm. So if it happens against all of our wishes at a reasonable cost, I will be hanging on to the silver lining that at least RW is pound-for-pound a fucking all-time badass mfer who is gonna leave it all on the court every night, and is gonna wreck some shit up from time to time.

  264. pepper:
    is it possible that westbrook becomes sprewell…and leads us to the promised land?

    full disclosure..i had one glass prosecco…two vermentino…one barolo…and now moving on to vin santo….trying hard to rationalize russ…

    If Westbrook became Sprewell he’d be in serious decline.

  265. i was trying to find a good comparable…they both hated to lose..which is tough to to find attribute these daze….i think sprewell was younger when we gilot him…but they seem to be pretty comparable…not pure shooters..take the ball to the hole well..etc..not sure what the serious decline comnent is all about…the guy was was all pro..he just choked out his coach…who probably deserved it…

  266. It’s all good pepper…enjoy the fine vino!

    Prime Latrell was a very good player, but nowhere near as good as prime Westbrook. If Westbrook is now a Latrell-level player, that would be a serious decline for him. For the record, I think he will be at least a Latrell-level player….but that’s not worth the percentage of the cap he’ll be taking up.

  267. full disclosure..i had one glass prosecco…two vermentino…one barolo…and now moving on to vin santo….trying hard to rationalize russ…

    don’t, russ to the knicks is too much a buzzkill…

    so, senor pepper (now chucky) – are you a horror genre kind of fan?

  268. geo: don’t, russ to the knicks is too much a buzzkill…

    so, senor pepper (now chucky) – are you a horror genre kind of fan?

    not so much…but chucky has a special place in my heart…back in the day..when I was a mischevious type…i was living with a few buddies in a house and one of my friends had a full shock of red hair a al chucky….well.. he was heading down to party in lake havasu with some friends (and likely some underage women) and I cut out of little picture of chucky from the newspaper and pasted it over his picture on his drivers license without him knowing it… of course…he got partied out down in havasu and passed out in his camp site and the police showed up and asked him for his id and unbeknowst to him…he handed it over and the cop gave him (1) a ticket for serving alcohol to minors (the passed out girls at the camp site) and (b) for falsifying his id or some shit….he was so pissed when he got back home..but it was too fucking funny for him to stay angry…that driver license with the chucky face on it was claissic….anyway ….that’s the backstory on my affinity with chucky…but I do like horror…the one that stands out was the original “omen” with lee remick and gregory peck…one of my friends mom took us to see that when we were like 9 or something…totally irresponsible…but that scared the shit out of me…

    btw…i am in LA right now heading to Phoenix but one of these days geo…need to get a brew or something when I am passing through here…

  269. Whether we like it or not, next wee Dolan is going to wipe out everything that has been building for years. Westbrook and another player are coming here. It’ll be someone to match up with Durant (at least in Leon’s mind that player matches up). Dolan will prove, once again, why he’s the worst owner in sports. This will be about stealing the headlines from the Nets. Remember that they go into this thinking that any team with a star or two can make the playoffs in the East.

    I do think that the Knicks will make a draft move to change position out of 8th. I’m not sure if it’s going to be up to get Wiseman or down to grab another 1st round pick from the Celtics. This may only come to fruition on draft day. If they’re getting Wiseman it’s so that they can trade Robinson. Remember that Mitch didn’t attend the fall camp for personal reasons.

  270. I’m getting seriously concerned about all the Westbrook smoke, it’s too much to be just random rumor talk.

    I mean, I barely cared about the Knicks in this last season, but bringing in Westbrook could lead to a windfall of terrible subsequent moves and that’s the scariest part to me. I don’t even hate Westbrook, he can be fun to watch when he’s tuned in, but if we have a front office that believes he’s worth it in that contract… I guess the next 3 or so years are lost as well.

  271. Well, if we get Westbrook at least Mitch will have plenty of opportunities to practice his offensive rebounding. Unless Russ still wants to hog rebounds. In which case, fuck.

  272. I ran that scenario through the ESPN trade machine and it fails. The Knicks need to include about $15M more, which they can by either adding Portis to the trade or a combo of Elfrid Payton and Ellington. I’m not sure how they will work to fill out the roster around him. They would still have some FA flexibility. They’re going to want to pair him with a good off-ball 3&D player. I had hoped to sign someone like Davis Bertan or Danilo Galanari but that cap space goes out the window if Westbrook comes here.

  273. Here’s a fun question that maybe makes getting Westbrook seem more palatable.

    Assuming it’s Randle and #27 for Westbrook straight up, would you rather have Westbrook on his current contract for the next 3 years or KD on his current Brooklyn contract for the next four?

  274. I’m officially on the fence about trading for Westbrook. A player of his talent is enticing, but at the same time..Houston has little to no assets to give us for taking that deal off their hands. Even if they take back Randle. But Westbrook- for all his warts- will jump-start the franchise. And I don’t necessarily love the way he plays, but I can’t deny his talent. On second thought- I lean towards a no on Westbrook. Mostly because Houston can’t offer a decent asset in return for taking his deal. Now..if they move Harden first..I say jump on it. But they probably won’t because it’s damn near impossible to get close to equal value for Harden unless Simmons or Giannis is available.

  275. It’s weird, I hate the idea of Westbrook’s contract, but other than that, if it’s only Randle we give up, I actually think we might be a better team. Neither Randle nor Westbrook can shoot threes, but at least you get assists out of Westbrook. Westbrook would fit better. It still doesn’t make us good. If you have Ntilikina, Westbrook, Barrett, Robinson and (gulp) Dotson or Knox, your defense and scoring might actually be alright. You would basically be playing small ball and hoping Ntilikina gets a bit better at hitting open threes, which should be available if Westbrook is on the floor.

    I don’t want to give up a Dallas pick though since it’s actually unprotected and there’s a slight possibility it’s worth a lot

  276. Would this be the first move to produce zero knickerblogger apologists?

    Update: apparently not

  277. Does it assume that we re-signed the team option players?

    I think it doesn’t matter. The rejection message says:

    The aggregate outgoing salaries are greater than $6,533,333 Therefore the incoming aggregate salaries must be within $5 million of the aggregate outgoing salaries. The incoming aggregate salaries exceed $5 million in this trade. Cut $15,506,482 from the Knicks incoming trade value to make this trade successful.

    I’m not a cap expert but there must be some rule that says “You can’t just dump salary” somewhere.

  278. If you mean me as an apologist, my decisions are skewed by Knicks PTSD. Any deal that isn’t absolutely awful seems a minor triumph. Of course, if we signed someone young, for example Christian Wood, i’d like that better. So I’m trying to figure out if trading Randle for Westbrook is awful or just bad. I’ve gotta say, even if it’s just bad, and not awful, we ought to be able to do better where we are one of the four teams with cap space in an environment where everyone is hurting for money.

  279. If we drop all the mercs except Bullock, we can trade Randle & 27 for Westbrook and have a little over $20 million left for free agents. This doesn’t count Pinson & Wooten, or 2 empty roster charges in their absence.

    We can likely sign Gallo, Bertans or Wood with that space. Gallo or Bertans are likely the better option because they shoot more threes.

    Westbrook
    Bullock
    RJ
    Bertans/Gallo
    Mitch

    That’s a solid lineup but your backups are likely our crappy rookies at every position and SF is a hole unless RJ steps up. You’re also betting on a bounce back season from Westbrook and Bullock.

  280. Here’s a better, more feature-rich trade machine:

    https://tradenba.com/

    Randle for Westbrook goes through if you decline Portis’ team option. It’s fun to play around with. For some reason you can’t exercise the options that we have on any of our other players, however.

  281. I’m way less negative about Gordon Hayward than CP3 or Westbrook.

    He’s a good player (at least when healthy), he only has 1 year left on that terrible contract, he’s only 30, and there’s at least some chance he could hang around for a few years after that and be productive at a more reasonable salary. It would kind of suck to help the Celtics, but the Celtics are on a different planet than us now anyway. I’m not sure what kind of deal makes sense.

    I would feel the similarly about this as I would abut signing Gallo for 2-3 years at the right price. I prefer younger, but beggars can’t be choosers and I don’t think there’s much downside to moving forward long term.

    One rumor is Westbrook and a longer term deal for Hayward.

  282. There are other reports out there that the Knicks want Gordan Hayward and that the Celtics want to move up in the draft to grab Okoro. That could mean the Knicks could do a 3-way (actually two independent deals that work in harmony). I think the Knicks would need to sweeten the deal for the Celtics, perhaps with a future pick but it’s an interesting starting point.

    Knicks get: Westbrook, Hayward, Celtics#14, Celtics #30
    Rockets get: Randle, Payton, Knicks#27
    Celtics get: Portis, Gibson, Ellington, Knicks#8

  283. Bruno Almeida: I don’t even hate Westbrook, he can be fun to watch when he’s tuned in, but if we have a front office that believes he’s worth it in that contract… I guess the next 3 or so years are lost as well.

    Yeah, this is the dilemma. It can’t possibly be argued that taking on Westbrook, even with marginal sweetener coming our way, bodes well for this FO’s subsequent moves. I don’t think it’s quite as ill-advised as signing Amare or trading the farm for Melo or re-signing Melo, but it’s just not prudent. The problem is, hiring Thibs all but shut the door on a patient rebuild. Thibs is gonna want to make the playoffs in year one and he probably sees Westbrook as his Derrrick Rose, Mitch as Noah, RJ as Butler, etc.

    If it happens, I don’t think it “dooms” the franchise to another decade of mediocrity in and of itself. This is a 5-year plan no matter what and Westbrook would be a 3-year stop-gap. And if you put the right low-cost supporting cast of young players around him, draft well, and make prudent moves with the rest of our cap space, it might not be so bad at the end of year 3.

  284. Hayward fills a need on this team. If we can do a reasonable deal for him, I’m for it. But I don’t think Portis counts as reasonable for him, unfortunately.

  285. Z-man: This is a 5-year plan no matter what and Westbrook would be a 3-year stop-gap.

    If we learn anything from the Yankees, you can rebuild with big salaries on your roster. Smart teams do NOT tear down their teams during a rebuild. They develop kids under stars. So, if the Knicks draft well in this and the next two drafts, they could be building a good young core. The key is finding that great draft pick along the way.

  286. If we did that trade I’d be checking out for like three years. Hayward’s a good player but he’s always injured and expiring. We’d be giving up assets to fill our cap sheet and win 35 games. If this happens you might as well just cancel Knicks basketball for the duration of Rose’s tenure

  287. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
    If we did that trade I’d be checking out for like three years. Hayward’s a good player but he’s always injured and expiring. We’d be giving up assets to fill our cap sheet and win 35 games. If this happens you might as well just cancel Knicks basketball for the duration of Rose’s tenure

    To be fair, you wouldn’t really be giving up assets. None of the outgoing players are assets and you’d essentially be trading #8 and #27 for #14 and #30. And Hayward is a one-year flyer assuming he opts in.

  288. Yes. If you go in on Westbrook and a PF this year, you don’t have an opportunity to add a second star. You have some money in the 2021 offseason if you let Frank, DSJr, and Bullock walk, but you still can’t sign a max player.

    The NBA isn’t like baseball. Draft position in baseball is meaningless and there’s no salary cap. You can’t do in the NBA what you can do in MLB.

    Again, Westbrook is a bad play.

  289. GoNYGoNYGo – Ready for 2020 Knicks 2.0: If we learn anything from the Yankees, you can rebuild with big salaries on your roster. Smart teams do NOT tear down their teams during a rebuild. They develop kids under stars.So, if the Knicks draft well in this and the next two drafts, they could be building a good young core. The key is finding that great draft pick along the way.

    This is preposterous. There’s no salary cap in baseball.

  290. Houston wants to trade Westbrook so they can have cap space and rebuild- likely on the fly. I’m not taking him in a deal without an asset attached. If they trade Harden for a player plus assets, then I can imagine whatever asset they send in a Westbrook deal would be better than what they have now. With Stephen Silas as a new coach, they have to be thinking rebuild, right? If so, then I hope they don’t ask for a good pick from us to take on Westbrook. If push comes to shove, they can have one of the Dallas picks..but definitely not any of this year’s picks.

    I’m still holding out for an asset to save a team money though. But Westbrook in the Garden would be exciting though. If we can’t get CP3 and a pick from OKC, then press the hell outta Utah for Conley. They wanna save money, but trading Randle for Conley doesn’t save them a ton. We may not get a great asset out of them either.

    What I really think Houston should do is offer up Westbrook for Paul George and retool with Harden.

  291. what if we locked up rwb and hayward for their 30s and hope giannis decides to join for the vet min bc he is dying to play with a big dog who also needs the ball and also can’t shoot. then we can sign kendall jenner to the mid level bc basketball is a business fyi. we could get alan on board to rally his vorporate drones by marketing the package as wo!men of a certain age, thank you steve stout.

  292. Z-Man,

    Sorry, I was unclear–we’d be doing a trade where we swap picks (which are categorically worse, especially if any of Hayes, Hali, or Okongwu are available at 8, which they’re likely to be) for the privilege of filling up our cap sheet for a 36 win season. It doesn’t seem like you’re defending the idea, so this isn’t directed at you, but since we’re on the subject: I just don’t see how this could be good in literally any respect (other than for business) unless Russ defies his three year trend-line of declining play for the rest of his contract. Or how it wouldn’t be an obvious signal that the franchise is doomed to another 5 years of shitty play, coaching, and management. I’m praying we get to draft night with no shenanigans/some team drives up the asking price for Russ.

  293. Let me be clear, I’m not advocating anything. I’m assuming that the desires of KB posters for a real rebuild are not what MSG would even consider. Dolan is not going to be patient. Without “names” he can’t sell tickets and I’m pretty sure that wants to steal back the spotlight from the Nets with Durant and Kyrie. What WE want is never happening. I’m just trying to extrapolate what could be going through Rose and Thibs heads as we approach draft day.

    Also, even though the NBA isn’t like MLB in terms of cap, the Yankees looked like they were in saddled in 2016 with aging vets and they turned things around while shedding salaries. Assuming he picks up the player option, Hayward is a UFA after 2020/21. It’s an expiring contract. That opens the door for the Knicks to be players in next year’s (much better) FA class. As long as the Knicks don’t give up future picks, there are paths to sensible rebuilds while carrying salaries.

  294. This is a link to the Celtics rumors about their picks. It would mean that the Knicks do not get any more picks out of it. So I would adjust the trade scenario to something more like this:

    Knicks get: Westbrook, Hayward
    Rockets get: Randle, Payton, Knicks#27
    Celtics get: Portis, Gibson, Ellington, Jrue Holiday
    Pelicans get: Celtics #14, #26, #30 (and some assets to offset the Jrue trade value)

  295. I think the Hayward rumor was essentially that he would “opt out” of the last year of his ridiculous current contract for a longer term deal. I’m not sure what the amount or number of years would be, but if you think he has 4 more productive years he can be a good piece on a team that’s simultaneously developing Robinson, RJ, Frank, Knox, and whoever else we draft and add over the next few years.

    There would also be cap room to add another starter.

    Then you put yourself into the position of having a pretty good team, with a TON of upside, and the ability to move on in 3-4 years as those vets are gone and your younger pieces are moving into their primes. I think the whole idea would be to try to add 2 good players this year so we are actually competitive, get the kids some playoff experience, and put ourselves in a position to attract a top player in a trade at a later date.

    I simply reject CP3 and Westbrook. CP3 is older and at the end of is career. Westbrook is older, declining, and I don’t like his game.

    I’d way rather find two younger pieces than Hayward, but let’s say we added Gallo at PF and Hayward at SF to go along with Robinson at C and RJ at SG and Frank at PG. That’s a pretty good start to a nice team for the next few years that’s got key players that are going to get a lot better every year, especially if we do add a PG in the draft and he looks promising. I could think of worse scenarios. Gallo and Hayward can both make plays and help in that area if Frank stays and plays for his defense.

  296. I thought the bad moves we were going to be talking about were gonna be like picking up Taj’s extension instead of bringing him back at a lower salary, etc. Gonna seem quaint if any of these rumored trades happen.

    A bit more nervous about Mitch’s future if this team is really trying to make the playoffs this year. Dude signed with Klutch instead of CAA recently. Could see him going out the door in a different trade for a ‘star’ if Rose is still about that CAA loyalty.

  297. What tickets?

    This is what gets me. The upcoming NBA seasons is going to be condensed and without fans for at least half of the regular season. If there was a year to just draft, develop and let the kids play with a few vets to babysit, this would be the year. Just one more year of developing could set us up so nicely for next year.

    I’ll root for Westbrook and if we get him for nothing I guess it’s ok but damn, just hold out one more year.

  298. The NBA isn’t like baseball. Draft position in baseball is meaningless and there’s no salary cap. You can’t do in the NBA what you can do in MLB.

    Draft position means a lot in every draft.

    Here’s the average WAR by players picked from 2000-2010, grouped by every five picks:

    1-5 – 12.8
    6-10 – 9.5
    11-15 – 8.7
    16-20 – 4.9
    21-25 – 6.5
    26-30 – 4.5

  299. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
    Z-Man,

    Sorry, I was unclear–we’d be doing a trade where we swap picks (which are categorically worse, especially if any of Hayes, Hali, or Okongwu are available at 8, which they’re likely to be) for the privilege of filling up our cap sheet for a 36 win season. It doesn’t seem like you’re defending the idea, so this isn’t directed at you, but since we’re on the subject: I just don’t see how this could be good in literally any respect (other than for business) unless Russ defies his three year trend-line of declining play for the rest of his contract.Or how it wouldn’t be an obvious signal that the franchise is doomed to another 5 years of shitty play, coaching, and management. I’m praying we get to draft night with no shenanigans/some team drives up the asking price for Russ.

    I personally think that there is very little difference in this draft between #8 and #14…and almost zero difference between #27 and #30. That said, the idea of filling our cap space with Russ and Hayward makes little sense even if we got #14 and didn’t give up anything. It’s just a bad idea. But not the worst idea ever by any means, i.e. something that should make you check out for the next 3 years in and of itself.

  300. There is no defending a Westbrook trade, unless he came with a ton of sweeteners that Houston doesn’t have. If he comes, some of us will try to talk ourselves into it being fun, because we’re fans and rationalization is a big part of what we do here. But any trade that didn’t treat Russ as a toxic asset would be absolutely horrible for this team and make clear that Rose is exactly the kind of unqualified, short sighted star chaser we took him for when he was hired.

  301. what if we locked up rwb and hayward for their 30s and hope giannis decides to join for the vet min bc he is dying to play with a big dog who also needs the ball and also can’t shoot. then we can sign kendall jenner to the mid level bc basketball is a business fyi. we could get alan on board to rally his vorporate drones by marketing the package as wo!men of a certain age, thank you steve stout.

    We can call that season Real Housewives of Used to Drive to the Rim but Now, Aged and Post-Injury, Settle for Contested Pull-up Elbow Jumpers which Are Missed at an Alarming Rate but the Confidence Inspires Confidence and That’s How You Build a Contender County

  302. This is what gets me. The upcoming NBA seasons is going to be condensed and without fans for at least half of the regular season. If there was a year to just draft, develop and let the kids play with a few vets to babysit, this would be the year. Just one more year of developing could set us up so nicely for next year.

    Yeah, it’s interesting how life gives the Knick a perfect opportunity to do the right thing and they just say, “Nah, no thanks. We got this.”

    But, again, these are all just rumors! I am not going to condemn Rose until he actually does something dumb. And he hasn’t yet (even if I disagreed with the Thibs hiring, it clearly wasn’t dumb in and of itself, as Thibs is at least a legitimately good coach).

  303. swiftandabundant:
    What tickets?

    This is what gets me. The upcoming NBA seasons is going to be condensed and without fans for at least half of the regular season. If there was a year to just draft, develop and let the kids play with a few vets to babysit, this would be the year. Just one more year of developing could set us up so nicely for next year.

    I should have gone into that more.
    When the season starts it’ll be remote but now you’re talking about TV revenue. If you’re an advertiser are you paying big bucks for Mitch, RJ, etc. or Durant and Irving?
    The season is going to roll into April and by then there should be vaccines and people going to games. Then there’s the playoffs. Tell me that you don’t think Dolan has visions of a packed MSG in May.

  304. Macbeth said it best, what I’m thinking about all these Knicks rumors and potential Westbrook trades:

    Or have we eaten of the insane root
    That takes reason prisoner?

    Please, not again. I’m not even totally against acquiring Westbrook, but if so, the Knicks get the sweetener(s). They don’t send any out. None. If Houston can’t or won’t, hard pass.

  305. Anybody who wants to sign up to watch a decline phase Russell Westbrook play increasingly inefficient heroball for the next three seasons whilst eating up $40M+ of salary cap is really just completely insane. I don’t know of any other way to put it.

    It would be maybe the Knicksiest thing that ever Knicksed.

  306. #Anybody who wants to sign up to watch a decline phase Russell Westbrook play increasingly inefficient heroball for the next three seasons whilst eating up $40M+ of salary cap is really just completely insane.#

    Sign Me up!
    Can’t afford booing/abandoning the Knicks for the next 3years.
    I’m a nykjunky.
    And ready to cross my fingers and… #trust# our “process?!”

  307. I mean acquiring decline phase Russell Westbrook isn’t even a different FLAVOR of stupid. It’s the SAME EXACT kind of stupid we’ve been doing for 20 years.

    It’s hard to be this consistently dumb for this amount of time. This is turning into something special.

  308. Keeping our draft picks and also avoiding trading Mitch/RJ firstly and Knox/Frank secondarily (per reports) is a sign of clarity (probably!).

    #dreambabydream#

  309. ***Anybody who wants to sign up to watch a decline phase Russell Westbrook play increasingly inefficient heroball for the next three seasons whilst eating up $40M of salary cap is really just completely insane. I don’t know of any other way to put it.***

    Yeah, I mean the next two years are throw away years and if ownership wants Westbrook to stimulate ratings and revenue, that’s understandable. But by 2022-2023, the Knicks COULD, theoretically, be out of the doldrums, but by that time the Westbrook contract will have risen to $47,000,000 while the cap could still potentially be shrinking. 34 year old Westbrook taking up 45%-50% of the cap would be hard to work around, but the good news is that there is no rising star on the current roster that they are going to have to max anytime soon. The Knicks probably aren’t winning many playoff games between now and 2023 with or without Westbrook, so, unlike with Melo, Bargnani, Eddy Curry, Marbury, Francis, Randolph, Jeffries, Amar’e, and Crawford, a Westbrook Era at MSG may not have many glaring long-term implications.

  310. a Westbrook Era at MSG may not have many glaring long-term implications.

    Opportunity cost.

    That’s the thing this franchise never understands. It’s not just the stupid thing you do, it’s the smart thing you COULD HAVE DONE INSTEAD that kills you.

    This idea is so dumb that I am 100% certain it is going to happen.

  311. i’m pretty sure a bunch of people in the media have jobs solely because they troll knicks fans into doom clicking whatever obscene trade rumor pops up at the time…. it’s a cottage industry at this point….

  312. This off-season is really painful because the team will probably have to make their stupid trade(s) before the draft rather than after, due to them having to include some expiring contracts (Portis, Ellington, etc.) that they’ll have to pick up.

  313. It’s depressing if the Knicks get Westbrook. I agree it’s more of the same old Knicks except maybe they won’t be throwing away picks

  314. I want no part of Westbrook. I wouldn’t want him on a minimum contract (except to trade him). He will completely dominate the ball and halt any growth that our young players will have. Look how Oladipo all of a sudden flourished once he got away from Westbrook. At least Paul and Harris will help us win while we overpay them. Westbrook would be Anthony all over again. A ball-dominant player that does not realize they are inefficient and actually hurting the team when they take 30 shots and make 13 of them. I want a fluid offense not a new flavor of iso-ball.

  315. ***Tobias’s contract deserves a place in the MoMA.***

    Harris’s contract isn’t an outlier. It’s the same contract other player his age/position/production have. He makes about what Middleton, Wiggins, Barnes, and George make. And he’s not demonstrably worse than any of them, and is arguably better than most of them. The problem with the contract is that it runs 4 more years, which takes away flexibility well into the potential “good” yard of the rebuild here. In a vacuum, the AAV of Harris is more attractive than Westbrook, Paul, Wall, etc. It’s just the $40,000,000 in 2024 that’s a real nightmare for Philly to unload. But that’s why the Knicks should probably consider him over Westbrook, as Philly HAS to pay a price for unloading him if they want to upgrade their present situation. Eat the contract for assets, not just ratings please!

  316. If our FO “Realize” that by getting Westbrook or Paul or Harris or Horford or any other huge contract gives the opportunity to the other team to reform and to have a good chance to sign Giannis and other FA then they should get assets for any of these contracts. Even for RW’s one.
    While also upgrading the team.

  317. From a Clippers beat writer who insists he never tweets rumors, but has “good intel” on this:

    A source is telling me that the Nets have engaged in talks with the Rockets. James Harden for a variation of: Spencer Dinwiddie, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince, and Jarrett Allen.

    Nothing finalized, but Harden to Nets seems like real possibility. If finalized, announced on Nov 22.

    If Harden goes, does that make a Russ trade more or less likely?

  318. Ugh. Is the trade moratorium lifted tomorrow or Monday? Hopefully, this is all just loose talk. At this point, I only want to see trades that send draft capital back. Anything else is probably foolish.

  319. Then trading Harden instead of Westbrook is real news. But the deal sounds like they gat a actual team back, so maybe.

  320. i am in LA right now heading to Phoenix but one of these days geo…need to get a brew or something when I am passing through here…

    that’ll work man, i know a virus friendly spot or two along the 10 here in the “inland empire” which’ll still serve ya a beer…coming from the empire state, always though it ironic i’m here now in the inland empire, way overcrowded dust bowl that it is :)

  321. That Rockets-Nets deal makes no sense for the Rockets. If they really want to blow it up, shouldn’t they be getting back draft picks and maybe a young borderline star or two, not essentially the Brooklyn Nets bench?

  322. That Nets “bench” is the bench this year, but last year they were starters that made the playoffs. If you add Westbrook to them, it’s probably a good team.

  323. Not sure how good they’d be, and I still don’t see what the Rockets end game would be. You either blow it up and start over, or you keep Harden and Westbrook and try to add a piece or two and make another playoff run.

    Getting those Nets players would make them mediocre and in 35-40 win purgatory for years to come.

  324. That Nets “bench” is the bench this year, but last year they were starters that made the playoffs. If you add Westbrook to them, it’s probably a good team.

    They’d probably be a 39-win team in the Western Conference. It’d be absolutely bizarre.

  325. It is bizarre. But in their defense, it’s hard to make a team where Westbrook and Harden work well together. They did their best by going to ultra small ball, but they had to give up on having a real center. That made it hard against the Lakers. If they want to go back to having a real center, then maybe they think they have to trade one of the two. They will get a better return trading Harden than Westbrook.

  326. But it won’t make them better, so trading one of the best players in the NBA to get worse but not so bad that they would get a good draft pick (or even a bunch of young, cheap players) is befuddling. If they want to be a decent team, they could just keep Harden and Westbrook, and they’d at least be a playoff team the next couple of seasons.

  327. I agree. But maybe there’s something real about Westbrook wanting a change, and the Rockets are trying to fix that.

  328. You don’t trade Harden for role players/future mercenaries.
    Unless he demands it.
    Or unless a career ending injury is lurking.
    Or unless you’re stupid.

  329. Allen and LeVert are 22 and 26, respectively. They are likely future starters, not mere mercenaries. Harden is 31. If you get a pick or two as well for Harden, you’re probably selling high, and that might be good for the Rockets, since their cupboard is bare at the moment.

  330. Harden is always a click away from contending on a tough WConference.
    Allen , Levert and co are ordinary players you find everywhere. Even the Knicks have Allens and Leverts.
    Harden is rare. You keep him. Or trade him for an army of assets.

  331. Probably a good time for the Rockets to blow it up.

    Both guys are over 30, and next year will be another pseudo-season.

    Allen and LeVert is a nice start, but for Harden I’d want a couple firsts with that. Westbrook could probably bring a young player and a first from Charlotte.

    That’s a nice base to start from. It might cost them a first to dump Gordon, though.

  332. Yeah, Allen and LeVert are more than fine if they came with good picks. But the Nets don’t have good picks to trade, so that’s why I think it’s such a bad idea.

    LeVert makes $16 million and Dinwiddie makes $11 million and can be a free agent after this season. This isn’t like you’re trading for a bunch of cheap, young players.

  333. If the Nets don’t have picks to trade, and their tradeable players will be free agents in a year, then I agree, I don’t know why Houston would do that trade.

  334. I’m sorry, I am still trying to imagine a backcourt of Harden and Irving. That’s either the most frightening thing to face since Medusa or the most hysterically funny thing to watch self-destruct.

  335. All these rumors are frightening to say the least but must admit I miss reading and dreading Knicks trade rumors, its been so long since we’ve had to deal with this stress. Regardless I’m looking forward to watching the Knicks again next month, feels like forever since we last got to watch a Knicks game. Of course by January I’ll probably be dreading watching them lol.

  336. If the Nets don’t have picks to trade, and their tradeable players will be free agents in a year, then I agree, I don’t know why Houston would do that trade.

    The fascinating thing to me is that I think you would have to make a likely top ten pick in 2021 the centerpiece of any theoretical Harden trade (that plus players, of course) and that just highlights the issues with the Nets offer as I don’t think you could get a likely top ten pick in 2021 in return for any of the Nets’ bench guys. I like LeVert, but no one is giving up a top ten pick in 2021 for him, ya know?

    And maybe that’s how the Nets deal becomes feasible? Because no one else is willing to part with a top ten pick in 2021, so this is the best they can get? It’s all quite weird.

  337. The Nets betting the farm on Durant, Irving and Harden seems like it would be reminiscent of their bet on Garnett and company many years ago. For their sake, I hope they don’t relive history.

  338. Durant (assuming 90% recovery) Irving and Harden is a finals-level core. That would be a coup for the Nets. With Harden they don’t need Levert and could pick up a replacement for Allen on the cheap.

  339. tho it will of course end badly, have to be excited about this week. it’s been a rough 20 yrs to be imprisoned on dolan’s island, but an especially brutal 3 years since kp went down. it might be literally true that our second most tantalizing moment (to the ultimately gut wrenching 2019 lottery sweat) was finding out that our cadre of sisyphean signings had team options. chip and a chair, amirite?

  340. You would think that the Warriors would make a pitch for Harden, with two high firsts two years in a row in their pocket.

  341. ptmilo:
    tho it will of course end badly, have to be excited about this week.it’s been a rough 20 yrs to be imprisoned on dolan’s island, but an especially brutal 3 years since kp went down.it might be literally true that our second most tantalizing moment (to the ultimately gut wrenching 2019 lottery sweat) was finding out that our cadre of sisyphean signings had team options.chip and a chair, amirite?

    You could argue that other than when the Lakers were announced at #4, this moment right now is the millennium’s high water mark for Knicks fans in terms of hope for a rational, methodical, and ultimately successful rebuild. All that remains is for our hopes to get dashed in the next few days.

  342. And to be fair, even if we had his the Zion/Morant sweepstakes, we’d be more likely to still have Mills around…

  343. Wow. The league just dropped that teams can actually sign a player in free agency this year and trade him BEFORE the season starts.

    That could be another huge way for the Knicks to get assets if they play their cards right.

  344. So uh can someone who is anti-asset accumulation explain to me how we’re going to compete with OKC going forward, who is both presently better than us and has, like, 40% of total NBA draft picks until 2026?

  345. Lakers trading for Dennis Schoeder, which will now give Oklahoma City FIFTEEN first-round picks in the next six drafts. Jesus.

  346. Wow. The league just dropped that teams can actually sign a player in free agency this year and trade him BEFORE the season starts.

    The tweets I’ve seen are a bit vague about whether they’re dropping that 3-month trade moratorium or not, but if they are, then, yes, Brock Aller better be screaming at Leon Rose to leave our cap space open to execute lots of sign-and-trades to assist capped-out teams.

  347. ***The Nets betting the farm on Durant, Irving and Harden seems like it would be reminiscent of their bet on Garnett and company many years ago.***

    Sunday morning hangover talking, perhaps?

    Pierce and Garnett were 36 and 37 years old respectively, and both in clear statistical decline. Harden and Durant just hit their 30s, and Irving is a full decade younger than Garnett was when they acquired him. (There is some question surrounding Durant’s recovery from injury, but Harden comes with no question marks whatsoever, other than how much he’ll diminish the returns of his expensive teammates).

  348. One option would be to orchestrate a sign-and-trade with, say, VanVleet, with the understanding that he would then be traded to Golden State for LaMelo (I’m not in favor of this, per se, just saying that the FO has, like, four days to compute all of these scenarios now if this is true, which is nuts.)

  349. The impression I’m getting is that the Knicks want to become competitive this year by adding 2 starters. The problem they face is that there are a couple younger players like Van Fleet and Wood that fit a need and are young enough to be part of this core, but both have a little gamble in them at the likely price. Then there are some older veterans like Westbrook and CP3 that imo are too old and too expensive to be logical unless a sweetener is added. Then there are guys like Gallo and Hayward that would be a kind of compromise position where they will make us more competitive now, have a few good years left in them, fill a need, but are not exactly ideal.

    I don’t know which of any of those players (or others not mentioned) would even come to NY or what the cost would be, but I don’t think the Knicks want to stay with the “let’s maximize our draft position” strategy. They want to start moving forward. That opens the door to the kinds of mistakes we’ve made in the past, but also gives us the opportunity to finally do this right by accelerating the process, making us a more competitive team with a lot of upside, and making us more attractive to free agents and players requesting trades as we move along.

    We are probably going to learn a lot about the new management this week.

  350. VanVleet/RJ/Hayward/Okongwu/Mitch would be a nicely balanced lineup. Especially if Okongwu can start making threes and RJ can start making free throws.

  351. Adrian Wojnarowski@wojespn
    ·
    Schroder-to-the-Lakers is well on course to be completed on Monday, sources tell ESPN. Rival teams in pursuit of the OKC guard have started moving onto new targets. The Lakers will land an impactful, versatile guard in pursuit of the franchise’s title defense.

    Looks like the deal is for #28 and Danny Green, so far.

  352. Shroder would have been interesting for NY. I was never a fan of his, but he seems to have matured into a better player now.

  353. It wouldn’t quite be The Move, but if Rose traded a late first and another asset for the privilege of watching Dennis Schroeder regress for one year you could pretty safely check out for a while.

  354. Deeefense: The impression I’m getting is that the Knicks want to become competitive this year by adding 2 starters.

    That’s a bingo. Yeah, there are a bunch of different approaches but you know that the organization wants to do something drastic.

  355. I wonder what kind of genius marketing campaign Stout will come up with if the Knicks acquire Westbrook? Probably lots of promos of W in a Knicks uniform, squinting and scowling at the camera…

    He could also borrow a line from BVW: Westbrook holds a basketball out in front of him, scowls at the camera and says, “come get us…”

  356. Well, now we know something about Rose. He could have out bid the Laker’s #28 pick with the #27 pick, but opted not to.

    (That Schröder deal is kind of odd in that the Thunder don’t save any money from it, and Presti already has more picks than he knows what to do with).

  357. I doubt Jared Harper amounts to much, but we won’t be quite as limited with him and Wooten as we’ve been with two way guys in the past:

    There is no 45-day limit for two-way contracts this season. Those players can’t be active for more than 50 games and will be paid a flat $449,155, but no 45-day counting clock this season.

  358. Donnie Walsh:
    Well, now we know something about Rose. He could have out bid the Laker’s #28 pick with the #27 pick, but opted not to.

    (That Schröder deal is kind of odd in that the Thunder don’t save any money from it, and Presti already has more picks than he knows what to do with).

    27 is better than 28, but then it boiled down to either Portis or Randle heading to OKC. That might have been the deal breaker on a trade.

  359. I wonder if OKC could make a godfather play for Harden with their current assets? Would be kind of hilarious if they traded Paul and a bunch of picks for Harden. The OKC supporting cast is probably better than Houston’s at this point anyway.

  360. ***27 is better than 28, but then it boiled down to either Portis or Randle heading to OKC. That might have been the deal breaker on a trade.***

    Lakers are over the cap, but couldn’t NY have just absorbed Schröder and not sent any salary back (if they’d wanted to).

  361. Donnie Walsh:
    ***27 is better than 28, but then it boiled down to either Portis or Randle heading to OKC. That might have been the deal breaker on a trade.***

    Lakers are over the cap, but couldn’t NY have just absorbed Schröder and not sent any salary back (if they’d wanted to).

    Forgot about that. Perhaps there is more to the deal that hasn’t been fleshed out yet.

  362. Donnie Walsh: Well, now we know something about Rose. He could have out bid the Laker’s #28 pick with the #27 pick, but opted not to.

    I think it was something else. Rose either wants a veteran all-star or a promising rookie and nothing in between. Honestly, I don’t even think he wants a rookie, but if he can’t get CP3 or Westbrook he’ll fall back to the rookie. We’ll find out tomorrow afternoon when teams can finalize trade deals.

  363. I cannot wait until I never have to hear about that godawful lottery bust scrub loser again

  364. So much for the idea of being able to sign and immediately trade outside free agents:

    Free agents signed this offseason cannot be traded any earlier than Feb 6; Those who are-resigned via Early or Full Bird have to wait until March 3 to be traded

  365. I cannot wait until I never have to hear about that godawful lottery bust scrub loser again

    This could refer to so many past and present Knicks, Jowles…

  366. Alan: This could refer to so many past and present Knicks, Jowles…

    rotflmao

    Including quite a few of Perry’s former lottery pick free agent signings. :-)

  367. I cannot wait until I never have to hear about that godawful lottery bust scrub loser again

    It wasn’t quite Ntilikina-level, but we spilled a lot of virtual ink on here about CSKA Moscow end-of-bench player Ron Baker.

    When Frank goes overseas there’s gonna be strong “doomsday cult leader whose rapture date has come and gone” vibes from some posters.

  368. It wasn’t quite Ntilikina-level, but we spilled a lot of virtual ink on here about CSKA Moscow end-of-bench player Ron Baker.

    Ron Baker might be an upgrade over some of the players the Knicks have had over the last few years. At least with Baker you got “half” a decent player. He wasn’t a 5m dollar a year player or one worthy of a player option, but hopefully we are finally beyond that level of incompetence.

  369. When Frank will make the All Defensive Team I’d be thrilled to serve CrowGyros Pitas to the Kassandras!

  370. Being an upgrade over Knox =/= being a useful player, unfortunately. I’m still annoyed we picked him. I guess that immortal 3 on 3 performance will live on forever in Steve Mills’ heart, though.

  371. KYN I’m game, but you’d need to eat something when he scrubs out of the league or it’d just be onesided. How does some leather shoe a la Werner Herzog sound?

  372. The mocking days of the Knicks young talents would be over soon under Thibs.
    Enjoy them while they last!
    Nba watch out!
    The Knicks are coming!

  373. #KYN I’m game, but you’d need to eat something when he scrubs out of the league or it’d just be onesided. How does some leather shoe a la Werner Herzog sound?#

    Learher?
    It sounds like protein.
    What size are we talking about?

  374. *since you mentioned WHerzog I’d like to recommend to anyone interested a band that used to put music in a few of his movies named:
    Popol Vuh
    They’re Life Changing material.
    Try them. Not only the Herzog ones.
    Aguirre Ost is a great start.

  375. The mocking days of the Knicks young talents would be over soon under Thibs.

    At a bare minimum he will push them to improve where they need it, use them correctly given their current skills, and put the right players on the court together. That alone will be a solid upgrade over what we’ve had. All that’s left is giving him pieces that fit together coherently to coach (and finding a #1 and #2 option among them or via trade/FA…ouch)

  376. At a bare minimum he will push them to improve where they need it, use them correctly given their current skills, and put the right players on the court together.

    did this really happen in minnesota?

  377. I really fluctuate between reserved optimism and outright disdain of Leon Rose based solely on whichever rumor I’ve heard most recently.

    This seems unhealthy.

  378. Right now, I’m leaning towards inducing a coma for a month, so I don’t have to witness any slo-mo train wrecks and can wake up right before next season starts.

  379. I don’t know if it actually works, but in theory the Knicks could trade their partial guarantees for fully guaranteed players and assets, allowing other teams to waive mercs and save money/open cap space.

  380. 8M for 3p specialist WEllington?
    That’s a steal

    You should be able to get a first for him at any time!

  381. The twitter thread says the Trade window opens at noon on Monday. That’s 1am here. I guess I’ll wake up to news Tuesday morning here. In terms of who to guarantee, maybe we could have a poll who each of us would choose to guarantee? That’s assuming no trades, of course, which could easily change things.

  382. Seriously now Wayne’s airballs were the most entertaining knicks thing last season right after Fizdale’s futuristic/avant-garde schemes.

  383. Early Bird:
    I don’t know if it actually works, but in theory the Knicks could trade their partial guarantees for fully guaranteed players and assets, allowing other teams to waive mercs and save money/open cap space.

    I think they will use them to swing trades for big contracts that other teams want to shed.

  384. Don’t ask me!
    I don’t know if that’s possible but they may have agreed to get him from a team that’d pick him up much earlier cause Okc picks 25th.

    Or the article is shit

  385. Knew Your Nicks:
    Don’t ask me!
    I don’t know if that’s possible but they may have agreed to get him from a team that’d pick him up much earlier cause Okc picks 25th.

    Or the article is shit

    If anything, I have to assume this is a promise to draft him so long as he’s still around. So he’ll be off the board by 25, which is problematic for teams drafting, for instance, 27.

    More likely, this is bullshit because we’d have seen it from Hollinger in English by now.

  386. If OKC really wants him, they have enough assets to trade up, perhaps with Boston. Boston would probably take a future pick for one of their present ones.

  387. “We’ll draft you if you make it to pick X” is a common enough thing. I believe the Lakers actually told Mitch that and then reneged on it.

  388. Agreed, Z-Man. I think it’s going to be Westbrook because of the “discount price.”

    So that will be three non-shooters in the starting lineup.

    I’m picturing lots of 5-28 nights from Russ. But at least he’ll feed Toppin a few sweet dunks each game.

  389. I guess this won’t be the ” Winter of our Discontent” ( apologies to @Clash Fan, I will stay in my lane going forward)
    On a positive note, we finally get to end our speculation about Rose and Company.

  390. did this really happen in minnesota?

    nope it did not

    There was clearly a “personality” and “work ethic” problem in Minnesota. That’s what lead to Butler wanting out. But since Butler continued to heap all kinds of praise on Thibs after he left, that means Butler thought the problem was Towns, Wiggins and some of the other young players. In those kinds of conflicts, you don’t trade Towns. You hope he eventually matures into a player that understands he has to give 100% on both sides.

    Also, despite some bad salary moves, the team was a LOT better with Thibs.

    Fortunately, he’s not the GM in NY. He’s the coach. And hopefully, this time around, he’ll have players willing to work hard on both sides of the floor. If he doesn’t, the coach won’t matter.

  391. Z-man:
    Westbrook or CP3 are feeling more and more inevitable.

    I’m getting the same feeling from Berman.

    If it’s going to be one of the two, I’d WAY prefer it be CP3. At least he’d teach our young players to play the right way. Having Westbrook on the team may help with work ethic issues, but it will be like having Melo teaching KP to take jab step turn around long 2s. Undoing the damage may not be so easy.

    I’m still holding out hope this is all “fake news” to generate clicks etc.. and we are going to do some smart things. If not smart, at least not dumb things.

  392. The really annoying thing about Westbrook is that Elfrid is the same type of player (with a conscience) for way, way less money!

    But I’m not going to judge the FO until something officially happens.

  393. ess-dog: The really annoying thing about Westbrook is that Elfrid is the same type of player (with a conscience) for way, way less money!

    There may be similarities, but Westbrook is WAAAAAAY better than Elfrid. Just not $40 million better.

  394. The MSG marketing department does NOT see Westbrook and Elfrid Payton as similar, I will tell you that. (And the marketing department is in the room where it happens).

  395. Not surprised to hear Harden rumors starting up. If Russ really does want out I don’t think the Rockets have much other choice – Westbrook is obviously overpaid but it’s going to be very hard to trade him in a way that doesn’t make them worse on the court next year, and they were already hanging on to contender status by the barest of threads, if at all. I don’t understand the Nets package from their perspective though. In particular I’m amazed that the Nets seem to have jiu jitsued the league into thinking Caris Levert is some great asset. He’s had a few moments where he seemed like he was going to break out, and the Nets obviously have done a nice job developing him, but he’s 26, makes $17M a year and the best season of his career was a +0.2BPM. He’s had stretches you can dream on a little but when the guy you’re dreaming on is already 26 usually you should focus more on their actual production, and he had a .514 TS% last year.

    In other news Givony has us picking Haliburton in his latest mock draft this morning but calls it “the low end of his range”. I’m still pretty skeptical that he would make it to 8 but everyone would be happy if he were the pick right? I don’t think that he can really play the 1 in the NBA unless it’s alongside a pretty ball dominant player, but I think he has as good a shot as anyone other than maybe the bigs at the top of this draft to be a starter level player.

  396. Bo Nateman:
    I guess this won’t be the ” Winter of our Discontent” ( apologies to @Clash Fan, I will stay in my lane going forward)
    On a positive note, we finally get to end our speculation about Rose and Company.

    Love it! I taught that soliloquy for years to AP 12th graders. Richard comes on stage and basically says, “I’m a bad guy, and I’m going to F*** with everyone.” Then proceeds to do so.

    Sort of like a James Dolan personal manifesto.

    Still hoping the Knicks pass on Westbrook.

  397. Yeah I in no way want Westbrook but to say he and Elfrid are similar is a huge disrespect to Russ and his career. Just because both aren’t good shooters and play the PG doesn’t make them at all in the same league.

    I mean, even decline Russ if we get him is going to make us a competitive team. How competitive remains to be seen and again, I’m not in favor of trading for him especially if any assets or picks are going out to them. But dude is a walking triple double. He’s insanely competitive and has an insane motor. Russ would probably be the best guard we’ve had since Marbury easily.

    Again, I don’t want him but people were making this comparison on P and T as well and its a little ridiculous.

  398. The fetishization of role players has no greater example than those 2018-19 Nets. 42-40 with a negative BPM, getting trounced in the first round of the playoffs, and somehow convincing half the league’s fans that they could be a contender at some point.

    BPM

    LeVert 0.2
    Dinwiddie 0.6
    Allen 1.6

    That’s a quite a haul for a guy who’s ranked 4th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 1st in VORP over his Rockets tenure and will likely claim a spot in the top 15 players of all-time by career’s end. And as tsam says, they’re all going to be on vet’s multi-year contracts, which are almost always overpays.

    Nets might win the East if they get Harden. They’ll be a shitshow on defense, but also score 130 a night even if Durant comes back giving 60% of his peak VORP (which is probably what should be expected, with load management and regular-season coasting factored in).

    Westbrook had 69 dunks in his career-high season, 2015-16, in 2750 minutes. Payton has 76 in his career, over 11,350 minutes. They’re not remotely close in play style, even with Westbrook getting to the rim a little less than his peak. Production, maybe, but not play style.

  399. I think that’s giving James Dolan way too much credit. He’s more of a:

    “Please please please be friends with me famous people, I will try really really hard at being your friend and play really crappy music and look at this cool toy I have.”

    I think we fade CP3 and Russ. I want to believe Rose is not that stupid. A man has to believe in something.

  400. The final major mock drafts are out, with no consensus on who we’re taking. Wasserman went with Vassell, while claiming we’re looking hardest at him, Okoro, and Lewis. Givony went with Halliburton, even though multiple beat writers (Berman and Popper) have said the Knicks aren’t very high on him. Vecenie went with Okoro, but admits New York is the only team in the top 10 where he doesn’t really have any read.

    Tight lips are good, especially compared to some past administrations, or some other local executives like Dave Gettleman who telegraph their every move. But it means we’re still in the dark about who they’re most interested in if they stay at 8.

  401. If Harden is really available, there are a bunch of teams that can outbid the Nets. I highly doubt he ends up there. Boston can easily beat that offer, for instance, although of course Ainge might decide to scuttle the trade because they want Daniel Theis or something

    Seriously – Kemba + Jaylen Brown is 100x better than the Nets pupu platter and would be a legit “ok” offer for Harden, not to mention Boston could throw in a bunch of picks too

  402. I think the problem for Houston right now is that its just a tight market to trade a big star like Harden. He’s obviously still at his peak and probably a top 3 player in the league, but this season is so weird with Covid.

    The contenders who would want him can only offer last first rounders and a lot of them have traded away those picks all ready to get to their contender status.

    The non contenders maybe aren’t looking to make a big move like that right now because of this weird season.

    So I just think right now its the worst possible time to move someone like Harden. Normally you’d probably have teams clamoring to get him. But it just feels like right now teams aren’t willing to give up a king’s ransom for a superstar like Harden.

    So maybe Houston thinks…well a bunch of role players at least those can be flipped later one by one for individual picks.

  403. I don’t want Westbrook, but this apparent … idea … that he’s just kinda like Elfrid Payton only maybe a little better is the LOL of both this century and last.

  404. According to Berman, no option exercise on Payton, no plan for DSJ other than trying to trade him, Frank isn’t a starting PG but a valuable piece of the puzzle nonetheless is exactly right. Good start for the FO on this front.

  405. That’s a quite a haul for a guy who’s ranked 4th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 1st in VORP over his Rockets tenure and will likely claim a spot in the top 15 players of all-time by career’s end. And as tsam says, they’re all going to be on vet’s multi-year contracts, which are almost always overpays.

    I don’t think anyone thinks it’s smart to trade very good role players for stars. The question is whether Westbrook is actually still a star that’s at least close to his MVP level play after all the surgeries and some indication recently that his decline may be started. Then on top of that, you have to figure out a trade that makes any sense and leaves you with a competitive team after you take on that gigantic salary. The possibilities are very thin. Almost nothing makes sense other than a team willing to take him into cap space for marketing purposes “on the cheap” asset wise. That doesn’t really make sense for Houston or Westbrook, but they may not have many choices.

  406. I feel like Westbrook is going to happen mainly because I think he can be had for salary filler and if that’s the case, its going to be too tempting to pass up for a new front office.

    I don’t like it but if no picks are involved and we’re shipping out Randle, I can live with it. He’ll at least light a fire under the ass of the youngsters and he is still a really good player. Getting Giannis or whoever is always a long shot. If we draft and develop correctly, at least we can live with Russ. I think the idea that he is selfish is maybe a little overblown.

    Can you tell I’m now trying to justify it? LOL.

  407. well…. now that I think about it, the Nets COULD have the best offer — if they traded Kyrie.
    That would be freaking hilarious.

  408. All I know is that the next week is going to be INSANE. All these GMs have been sitting on their hands forever, very itchy trigger fingers.

  409. I obviously just meant Russ is the same TYPE of player as Elfrid (triple-double threat point guard that can’t shoot) and not worth the extra $33 mil a year when we should be positioning ourselves for a good 2021 pick (I knew when I typed that on the shitter that I would get immediate shit for it — pun intended.)

    I don’t think there are enough balls in Brooklyn for Kyrie, Durant, and Harden, but it could be an interesting experiment for a few years.

    Re: the draft, I’ve seen a few mocks that have us taking Okoro, who has supposedly learned how to shoot (according to him). If that’s true, I’m okay with that pick. I like him and Vassell, which is who the FO supposedly likes the most, but a Toppin slide could ruin all of that.

  410. So it begins– the best (and only) good week of Knick watching each year. Free agency, trades, and the draft. How will they screw themselves this time?

  411. E: According to Berman, no option exercise on Payton, no plan for DSJ other than trying to trade him, Frank isn’t a starting PG but a valuable piece of the puzzle nonetheless is exactly right. Good start for the FO on this front.
      

    If they are going to draft a PG they think is ready to be handed the keys, trade for a better one, or sign a better one in free agency, allowing Patyon to walk makes sense.

    I haven’t totally given up on DSJr eventually putting it all together and using all that talent to turn into a good player, but he’s not my cup of tea. If they move him for an asset/player I like better, I’m fine with that.

    That they understand Frank’s potential value on a team that already has it’s #1 and #2 option is the best news I’ve heard about this management/coaching staff to date.

    I hope this is all true.

  412. I want to believe Rose is not that stupid. A man has to believe in something.

    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit smoking, drinking, sniffing glue, etc.

  413. This Harden to Brooklyn stuff is laughable. There is no way Danny Ainge and Darryl Morey let that one happen.

  414. The extent to which no one seems to have a clue what we’re doing is pretty interesting. In the last few days the reputable mocks are all over the place. Props to Rose for being tight lipped I suppose, though I have an uneasy feeling that giving him props for anything will feel stupid soon.

    For some reason this is a controversial take, but I think it is cool and good and exciting that we have surplus picks in this draft and we should try to find ourselves in that position more often.

  415. AD opting out. What does that mean?

    Just that he wants to sign a new contract with LA now, rather than waiting a year. He’s not going anywhere.

  416. AD opting out is meaningless – he has no guarantee beyond this season on his current contract, so he’ll re-sign with the lakers for a 1+1 or 2+1

  417. For the record, I do kinda wish we outbid the Nets for Bruce Brown. I’m also hopelessly biased as right now he’s one of the best players my alma mater has ever produced. Regardless, bizarre move by the Pistons to virtually give away an interesting young player. He’s another player in the “if Frank Ntilikina fan fiction was true” category.

  418. If anyone is here to play the role of Richard, it’s Stevie Cohen, currently answering people on twitter directly.

    Have we done anything stupid yet?

  419. I would think Boston could put together a solid package of picks for Harden and solidify themselves as true contenders. Or at least outbid that Nets package.

    Idk about the Bucks propensity to spend but Harden + Giannis + nothing at all = championship. They’ve got to have something better than the Nets package.

    I’ll stop there, but that Nets package sucks.

  420. Philly could send Ben Simmons, although it’s possible that Fertitta won’t agree to any trade with Morey. But basically there are way better packages out there.

  421. The question is whether Westbrook is actually still a star that’s at least close to his MVP level play after all the surgeries and some indication recently that his decline may be started.

    I was talking about Harden.

  422. owen the best way is prob to turn twitter notifications on temporarily and then specifically for woj, shams, stein and maybe chris haynes, begley and berman. the refresh spiral is a young man’s game.

  423. The Honorable Cock Jowles: I was talking about Harden.

    I am a moron, but you already knew that. lol

    This is what happens when your girlfriend is screaming that we have a grocery delivery sitting outside that needs to be brought it and washed and your trying to ignore her and talk about the Knicks.

  424. Fun app showing draft survival curves (odds that a player x is still available at pick y)–makes it fun to game out scenarios:

    https://chrisfeller.shinyapps.io/nba_draft_survival_analysis_app/?_ga=2.67843986.2071066075.1603058532-829731406.1603058532

    This would suggest my Hayes/Stewart/Dotson dream is alive, so looking forward to dreaming on that for the next 55 hours or so before winding up with Patrick Williams/Cassius Winston/Markus Howard.

  425. CP3 to Phoenix per Woj and Shams:

    Shams: OKC has traded Chris Paul to Phoenix for Ricky Rubio, Kelly Oubre, Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque and draft compensation, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA

    Now is the time to tremble–Russ is the only PG with a giant contract left unaccounted for.

    Edit: Draft compensation is a 2022 first. Lmao OKC has a war chest.

  426. A week ago I would’ve been so relieved that a dumb thing is off the table for the Knicks. Now I’m worried they might shift their attention to an even dumber thing.

  427. The deal sends Chris Paul and Abdel Nader to the Suns for Kelly Oubre, Ricky Rubio, Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque and a 2022 first-round pick, sources tell ESPN.

  428. rubio, oubre plus some picks for cp3…

    seems kind of cheap…. depending on what the picks turn out to be…. could be multiple lottery picks depending on how this team turns out….

  429. Well the larger point is that we were not getting CP3 w/o giving up assets, much less getting sweetener.

    PHX is going to be very fun to watch!

  430. So much respect for OKC. They got two picks for taking Paul on and got another one when they traded him. And in between they were an awesome fun team to watch.

  431. So, that answers the poll question at the top of this thread (time to move to a new one?)

    Paul for Rubio, Oubre, New York’s own Ty Jerome, some dude named Jalen Lecque, and a 2022 first round draft pick is a pretty good salary dump return. It splits up the giant contract into smaller movable ones, and gets some potential assets too.

    I guess that’s roughly the equivalent of a Knicks package of Randle, Portis, Brazdeikis, Pinson, and our 2022 pick. Would we have cried over that deal here at KB?

  432. Yeah, other than the Harden trade, which was in part forced on him by ownership (but still a very poor return), Presti seems very good at what he does.

    Now I just need the Hornets to acquire Westbrook and I’ll feel much better about everything.

  433. Much prefer CP3 to Westbrook, but that return is way too rich for my blood or, really, the blood of anyone with a functioning brain.

  434. Tommy Beer
    @TommyBeer
    Updated look at OKC Thunder’s future draft picks

    2020:
    Nuggets 1st round pick
    Lakers 1st-rd pick

    2021:
    Own 1st
    Heat 1st
    HOU pick-swap

    2022:
    Own 1st
    Clips 1st
    Suns 1st

    2023:
    Own 1st
    Clips pick-swap
    Heat 1st

    2024:
    Own 1st
    Clips 1st
    HOU 1st

    2026:
    Own 1st
    Clips 1st
    HOU 1st

  435. I wouldn’t mind swinging something for Rubio to be our stop gap PG and organize the youngsters. His 3 pt shot has improved. Wonder if OKC is game. Thoughts?

  436. Owen:
    So much respect for OKC. They got two picks for taking Paul on and got another one when they traded him. And in between they were an awesome fun team to watch.

    A few people look really stupid right now (ahem Morey) and one guy looks really smart.

  437. I feel like no one ever asks, what if OKC had traded Westbrook rather than Harden?

    Those guys probably would have bust out of town at some point anyway but it seems an interesting counterfactual.

  438. I wouldn’t mind swinging something for Rubio to be our stop gap PG and organize the youngsters. His 3 pt shot has improved. Wonder if OKC is game. Thoughts?

    I’d have been interested in Rubio if he was basically free, with us helping to facilitate a trade. That turns out to not be necessary. I still think he’d be a good stopgap point guard and prevent us from making a Westbrook mistake, but the cost would have to be really minimal. Sounds like the Knicks don’t want to give up on Knox yet. Not trading the 27th pick for Rubio. Maybe DSJ?

  439. New poll question:

    Would you trade the #8 pick to OKC for #25 pick + 2022 Suns pick + 2023 Clippers pick + 2024 Houston pick?

  440. They could definitely bundle one of those firsts in a Rubio trade for Randle since we would save them a year of salary. :)

  441. Alan: I’d have been interested in Rubio if he was basically free, with us helping to facilitate a trade. That turns out to not be necessary. I still think he’d be a good stopgap point guard and prevent us from making a Westbrook mistake, but the cost would have to be really minimal. Sounds like the Knicks don’t want to give up on Knox yet. Not trading the 27th pick for Rubio. Maybe DSJ?

    Yeah I mean maybe the Knicks haven’t given up on Knox bc of the stupid Kentucky connection but I have. He’s awful. I’d do him and some filler and maybe even a future 2nd for Rubio?? (This all under the guise of the Knicks are not tanking 2021 of course). No?

  442. Would you trade the #8 pick to OKC for #25 pick + 2022 Suns pick + 2023 Clippers pick + 2024 Houston pick?

    if the #8 pick was used on hayes or kira lewis then no… otherwise… yes

  443. Maybe I’m overanalyzing the tea leaves but given how quickly this trade was finalized at a relatively fair price (i.e. it’s not like Phoenix did something super exorbitant just to lock it up immediately) it sure seems like we were never bidding that seriously on CP3. My expectation is that if OKC had multiple teams prepared to give up a 1st rounder they might’ve dragged this out and get a little bit of a bidding war going. I’m cautiously hopeful that’s a good sign about our willingness to do anything for Westbrook.

    I’m interested to see what Phoenix does with the rest of their free agency space. That team could be really fun and intriguing if CP3 ages gracefully over the next couple years.

  444. Owen: I feel like no one ever asks, what if OKC had traded Westbrook rather than Harden?

    Those guys probably would have bust out of town at some point anyway but it seems an interesting counterfactual.

      

    I have a feeling Durant would have eventually gone crazy and left anyway. Harden is a great player, but who wants to play with him? You’d have to watch him dribble the ball through his legs 300 times before putting up a sidestep 3 that gets less reliable under playoff pressure. Durant is on the very very very short list of greatest all around scorers of all time. He may even be #1. If I was him, I’d shoot myself if I had to watch that.

  445. Z:
    New poll question:

    Would you trade the #8 pick to OKC for #25 pick + 2022 Suns pick + 2023 Clippers pick + 2024 Houston pick?

    Is the Houston pick unprotected? If so yes. I don’t like this draft and Houston is very visibly going down the drain under this ownership. Morey, MDA, Harden and Westbrook in the span of like 90 days? I can’t even remember anything as devastating. Would not want to be a Rockets fan right now.

  446. It’s starting to look like no one wants to deal with Fertitta. He does seem like a massive pain in the ass. If there’s one thing Knicks fans are familiar with, it’s the way in which the owner’s BS can permeate the entire enterprise and just never go away, much like the BO in Seinfeld’s car.

  447. Given that KD wants to play with Harden right now apparently, I suspect they got along fine in their Thunder days. Westbrook was always the fly in the ointment.

    Iverson is a great comp for Westbrook. Maybe DRose in his Chicago prime. There is a way to make it work with him but you need a very circumscribed kind of team, you need him to stay healthy, and you have to accept that you probably won’t be a contender.

  448. Owen: Iverson is a great comp for Westbrook. Maybe DRose in his Chicago prime. There is a way to make it work with him but you need a very circumscribed kind of team, you need him to stay healthy, and you have to accept that you probably won’t be a contender.

    Same exact thing can and should be said about Melo. The problem with those guys is that you can never get the other superstar you need because they’re such stubborn chucking hogs.

  449. Owen:

    Iverson is a great comp for Westbrook. Maybe DRose in his Chicago prime. There is a way to make it work with him but you need a very circumscribed kind of team, you need him to stay healthy, and you have to accept that you probably won’t be a contender.

    I think Westbrook retards the process of building a true contender, but the minute they signed Thibs, the notion of a patient rebuild went out the window. If you get 2 years of 90% prime Westbrook, that will certainly push us out of the lottery, especially with the expanded playoff scenario. That’s what Thibs wants, and probably what Rose wants too. If it’s a relatively neutral deal (Randle, someone not named RJ or Mitch, a non-lottery pick in either this draft or any draft other than next year) then there are ways to use him as a placeholder. He’d take some pressure off the younger guys and might help them develop by being the Melo-like lightning rod. We would still have draft picks, young players and enough cap space to add another quality starter. (Bertans? Harris? Gallo?)

  450. the problem is that 90% prime westbrook is long gone…. he was probably 40-60% last year and the year before…

  451. ***Maybe I’m overanalyzing the tea leaves but given how quickly this trade was finalized at a relatively fair price (i.e. it’s not like Phoenix did something super exorbitant just to lock it up immediately) it sure seems like we were never bidding that seriously on CP3.***

    I think that if Paul had said (inexplicably) that he’d like to go to NY, the Knicks would have matched that offer. But Presti has accumulated all those picks WHILE putting his players where they want to be. Phoenix was really, really good in the bubble, has a lot of young upside, Phoenix itself is a rapidly growing city in the sunbelt, and is very close to LA where Paul lives. So we can’t say that we learned anything about Leon Rose as a GM from this trade.

  452. Every report said Paul had NY on his list of acceptable donations, because he likes the city and is close with Rose. It may also be that OKC told him that Phoenix was interested, and he said he’d prefer the much more promising roster. But it’s also possible that OKC asked for an equivalent package from the Knicks and Rose said no.

  453. djphan: the problem is that 90% prime westbrook is long gone…. he was probably 40-60% last year and the year before…

    I don’t agree with that…last year is hard to judge because he played along the biggest ball-stopper in the league besides himself in a system that did not fit his game. The year before that he averaged a triple-double and shot a career low from the line, depressing his TS%. There is no reason to think that he’s in serious decline…he’s 32, not 36.

  454. I feel like CP3 is going to be injured by the 3rd game of the season and Phoenix is going to regret dismantling their unbeaten bubble team (sour grapes, perhaps?)

    Now, seriously, the 27th for Rubio, please. Defense, assists, a trickle of 3P%, … he might not be great but makes it easier to build something resembling a team. And tall point guards usually have long careers.

  455. it’s ok to give him a mulligan for this past year but there’s 3 declining years before that also…. how do you explain that?

  456. Owen: Given that KD wants to play with Harden right now apparently, I suspect they got along fine in their Thunder days. Westbrook was always the fly in the ointment.

    I agree with the Westbrook part, but the version of Harden that played in OKC is not the same player the current Harden is. He’s a more skilled and better player now, but he’s also a more ball dominant player, more of a ball stopper, and throws up a lot of trash. That’s why he couldn’t get along with CP3 and butted heads with a similar player like Westbrook even though were great friends in OKC. If that trade comes off, I can’t wait to see Durant’s face on some nights when Kyrie and Harden are dominating the ball and he starts feeling like the 3rd option when he’s arguably the greatest scorer of all time. lol

  457. Berman suggests that… Scott Perry saved us?

    The Knicks’ rookie president had a pipe dream of trading for his favorite client when he ran the Creative Artists Agency, but in the end he did not heavily pursue the 35-year-old point guard by offering a trove of future assets.

    The Post had reported OKC was most enamored with the Knicks’ 2018 lottery pick, Kevin Knox. Rose thought Paul could be the consummate leader that would’ve helped reinforce Tom Thibodeau’s new culture.

    However, The Post has learned Knicks GM Scott Perry had misgivings about adding a 35-year-old point guard considering where the franchise was.

    But, he adds:

    The Knicks are still trying to solve their point-guard puzzle and will monitor the Russell Westbrook Sweepstakes as the Rockets figure out their new direction.

    The Knicks believe they have leverage because most teams don’t have the cap space to absorb the three years left on Westbrook’s contract. Westbrook is 32 – three years younger than Paul.

  458. I think Presti has been handling this well, but I also think that he’s unfairly getting credit for Chris Paul turning his career around. Chris Paul being dumped on Prssti as a negative asset and then being traded as a positive asset has all to do with Chris Paul becoming an All Star again, not some Sam Presti GM wizardry.

    Same thing with Schroder turning his game around and becoming an actual asset.

  459. i feel kinda relieved we didn’t trade for chris paul, because the price phoenix paid was way too high for us. but i’m also kinda afraid that in a week i’m going to wish we had traded for chris paul bc we paid an even higher price for Russell Westbrook.

    seriously, how is giving something up for westbrook even a consideration? that guy should come with 3 first round picks to acquire his contract.

  460. FWIW, CP3’s numbers didn’t miraculously bounce back after leaving Houston.

    I think what we’re seeing is a player overly reliant on athleticism in fast decline and Houston not catering to Westbrook to boost his rebounding and assist numbers. Houston went out of their way to sculpt the team into a lineup Westbrook didn’t suck in and he still put up a weak (for him) season.

    Westbrook is done.

  461. At this point I would be shocked if Russell Westbrook gets traded and doesn’t end up in New York. The trade I keep coming back to would be Westbrook and whatever picks we can extract to New York, Horford and Josh Richardson to HOU, and Julius Randle and Wayne Ellington to Philly.

    Aaaaaaaaaand Shams is saying Harden wants a trade.

  462. I think Presti has been handling this well, but I also think that he’s unfairly getting credit for Chris Paul turning his career around. Chris Paul being dumped on Presti as a negative asset and then being traded as a positive asset has all to do with Chris Paul becoming an All Star again, not some Sam Presti GM wizardry.

    That’s a reasonable position.

    Would you agree that it makes Morey look bad because he gave up on a guy that still had something left in the tank prematurely and took on an even worse contract all while paying a price for the privilege of doing it?

    He basically left the Rockets in a really tough spot because they have two older stars that realize the team has to rebuild. They don’t have the time to wait at their age, especially when the cupboard is bare and they don’t have the assets to turn it around.

  463. There’s no need to trade Knox as part of a flotsam dump for dreck and I’m not surprised he actually is wanted by well-run organizations in the league.

    Berman’s story reads like there are already separate agendas afoot in the Knicks’ front office, so we’re back to Kremlinology and tea leaf reading. If Perry is the source of what Rose was “thinking,” that’s just no good.

  464. Morey was desperate when he made the Westbrook trade, because no one can stand to play with Harden anymore. He still gave up too much, but it’s a challenge to build around Harden.

    KD and Kyrie are ok with Harden because it’s only theoretical now. They won’t be when they’re actually playing with him.

  465. Deeefense:

    Would you agree that it makes Morey look bad because hegave up on a guy that still had something left in the tank prematurely and took on an even worse contract all while paying a price for the privilege of doing it?

    Given that everyone is trying to move as fast and far from Fertitta’s Rockets as possible, I would consider the trade as Morey’s last ditch effort to win a title before leaving the sinking ship, with no regards whatsoever for the future.

  466. Payton is like 70% of Westbrook at 20% of the cost, for a team that’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

    The Rockets are in a bad place because they have no incentive to be bad but between the lines Fertitta is broke.

  467. why can’t we just use our three draft picks and add some disposable veterans to fill the gaps? This is going to be the most insignificant, least watched NBA season of all time. it is literally the worst time to make a splash.

  468. Donnie Walsh has to own the Tracy McGrady and Carmelo Anthony deals. We can’t give Darryl Morey a pass for the Westbrook trade.

  469. #why can’t we just use our three draft picks and add some disposable veterans to fill the gaps?#

    That’s probably the best way to go but demands the patience of a shaolin monk and the spiritual power of a God not named Dionysus. Let’s wait a few hours and see what Leon is made of.

  470. If the Warriors and Suns both make the playoffs and OKC doesn’t, one more Western team that made it last year won’t make it again.

    It’ll proooooooobably be Portland…but we just might get a lottery pick for Bargnani With Blocks.

  471. Yeah, the 2021 Dallas pick should be all but completely off limits. 50/50 maybe better it’s in the lottery. Too many unknowns, too much upside to trade now. Trade it at the deadline if you need to and Dallas is a clear playoff team.

  472. Ehh with the way the schedule is set up, Dallas is going to feast off of weaker teams in their division like Houston and San Antonio while a team like PHX (who I firmly believe to be better than Dallas right now) has to play LAC, LAL, and GSW a lot more than they would in a normal year.

    Pencil in Dallas for the 7th seed again.

  473. Brian Cronin:
    I think Presti has been handling this well, but I also think that he’s unfairly getting credit for Chris Paul turning his career around. Chris Paul being dumped on Prssti as a negative asset and then being traded as a positive asset has all to do with Chris Paul becoming an All Star again, not some Sam Presti GM wizardry.

    Same thing with Schroder turning his game around and becoming an actual asset.

    This is a weird take to me. Obviously some chunk of it is outside of his control – that’s true of everything done by every GM – but correctly identifying guys who are currently undervalued and have a good chance of being worth more later is exactly what he’s supposed to do. Giving him credit for doing a great job of it isn’t unfair.

    Also just saying, but, CP3 didn’t really “turn his career around”. He had a slightly down year that last year in Houston because he was never really healthy, but he wasn’t exactly terrible. He had a 3.9 BPM in 58 games, and then turned his career around to the tune of 4.4 BPM in 70 games (granted a COVID shortened season). The trade had a lot more to do with Harden and CP3 not getting along anymore and a lack of belief in CP3 staying healthy than a real decline in his level of play.

  474. thenamestsam: He had a slightly down year that last year in Houston because he was never really healthy, but he wasn’t exactly terrible. He had a 3.9 BPM in 58 games,

    7.1 BPM down to 3.9 BPM is more than a slight down year. But I agree that the 4.4 BPM last year isn’t exactly turning his career around.

    3.9 is still a great number, just much lower than 7.1 or the consistent 8+ BPM he put up previously.

  475. We’ll see what happens with the Rockets, but assuming they don’t trade Harden (big assumption) we can still pencil them in for 48-52 wins at least.

    The rest of that division? San Antonio, which will probably be at least ok.
    Pelicans will probably be in the 35-40 win place with a full year of Zion + SVG.
    Memphis will be better and may push for the playoffs

    It’s not a great conference but there are zero pushovers, like, say, the Knicks, Wizards, Hornets, Cavs, Pistons, etc.

    Dallas isn’t only going to be down KP, but also I doubt Dwight Powell is going to play much to start the season too — he of the Ws/48 of ~0.200, TS 67.7. Lineups with Luka+Powell had a +10.1 net rating. Lineups with Luka but without Powell had only a +3.1 net rating. Powell is a really important player for them too…

    And of course, none of us wish anything bad for Luka, but if he goes down, that pick is a lottery pick next year.

  476. “cgreene
    November 16, 2020 at 1:41 pm

    Z:
    New poll question:

    Would you trade the #8 pick to OKC for #25 pick 2022 Suns pick 2023 Clippers pick 2024 Houston pick?

    Is the Houston pick unprotected? If so yes. I don’t like this draft and Houston is very visibly going down the drain under this ownership. Morey, MDA, Harden and Westbrook in the span of like 90 days? I can’t even remember anything as devastating. Would not want to be a Rockets fan right now.”

    The 2024 Rockets pick is protected 1-4, and if it falls within that range the Rockets keep it and don’t owe it anymore.

    (The 2022 Suns pick is protected 1-12 in 2022,1-10 in 2023, 1-8 in 2024, and unprotected in 2025)

    (And, sorry, the Clippers pick is 2024, not 2023 (but it’s unprotected)

    (But, hell, there are so many picks in OKC, just build the package you’d be okay trading this year’s #8 pick for, if any)

  477. “Deeefense
    November 16, 2020 at 1:25 pm

    Updated look at OKC Thunder’s future draft picks”

    I am adding the protections on said picks…

    2020:
    Nuggets 1st round pick (#25)
    Lakers 1st-rd pick (#28)

    2021: (*OKC owns the highest two of the following three picks (Houston gets the least favorable of the three)
    Own 1st*
    Heat 1st (unprotected)*
    HOU pick-swap (protected 1-4)*

    2022:
    Own 1st
    Clips 1st (unprotected)
    Suns 1st (protected 1-12 in 2022,1-10 in 2023, 1-8 in 2024, and unprotected in 2025)

    2023:
    Own 1st
    Clips pick-swap
    Heat 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, 1-14 in 2024, 1-14 in 2025 and unprotected in 2026)

    2024:
    Own 1st
    Clips 1st (unprotected)
    HOU 1st (protected 1-4, and if it falls within that range the Rockets keep it and don’t owe it anymore)

    2025:
    Clips/Rockets (protected 1-10) swap picks (OKC can choose the better of the two)

    2026:
    Own 1st
    Clips 1st (unprotected)
    HOU 1st (protected 1-4, and if it falls within that range the Rockets keep it and don’t owe it anymore)

  478. Dallas will start the season off in a weakened position with KP out a few weeks and Powel maybe not 100%, but they know when healthy they are a couple of secondary players and some experience away from serious contention. They were injury decimated last year in the playoffs. Despite that if it wasn’t for the “questionable” KP ejection they might have had the Clippers on the ropes.

    They aren’t going to stand pat. They are going to be active trying to plug a few holes. Even in the worst case scenario where KP goes down again and is out for the season, they might still make the playoffs with Doncic in better condition, learning more, taking another step forward, and them adding 1-2 more supporting pieces. If KP stays healthy and gets rolling again, they will be near the top of the west with any additions.

  479. Bulls are not giving Kris Dunn the qualifying offer. The last thing we need is yet another point guard who can’t shoot, but Thibs did coach him as a rookie, so never rule it out…

  480. Early Bird: I think what we’re seeing is a player overly reliant on athleticism in fast decline and Houston not catering to Westbrook to boost his rebounding and assist numbers. Houston went out of their way to sculpt the team into a lineup Westbrook didn’t suck in and he still put up a weak (for him) season.

    Westbrook is done.

    This is a. onfusing take. On one hand, you say that Houston didn’t cater to him and on the other you say that they went out of their way for him. Of course, both are inaccurate. He was a dumb acquisition from the get-go and everyone here knew it at the time.

    The larger point is that you are saying that Westbrook is overly reliant on his athleticism, and that his athleticism is in fast decline. Yet his percentage of dunks was at his career average, his rebound rates were at or above his career averages, his steal and block numbers were pretty much at his career averages. You could argue that his AST% and FTr were both down as evidence of decline, but his eFG% was at a career high mainly because he shot a career high 51% from 2 and he went to the rim at a career high rate. He shot terribly from 3, especially on corner 3’s

    I don’t think he’s in physical decline. He’s just a mercurial player who needs the ball in his hands more than is prudent, and he’s a bad 3-pt shooter. He’s a bad investment even at 100% of his prime self because he’s a selfish stathound who doesn’t make his teammates better (except for taking offensive pressure off of them, which could be a good thing for our young team.) If he’s in a better situation, he’ll bounce back statistically.

  481. Westbrook was bound to put up lower numbers in Houston compared to recent years because Harden has the ball in his hands so often and because over the last few years in OKC, other players deferred rebounds to him to get the ball in his hands faster to start the break (and to help him stat stuff triple doubles) . Houston has done that with Harden at times also. So something had to give.

    As far as getting to the rim goes, Houston’s whole strategy was to create space for him so he could finish at the rim instead of taking as many 3s. That was how they hoped to improve his efficiency.

    From watching him, I’d say after all the operations he has lost a step but is not “done”. However, he might have a tougher time on a team like the Knicks where space is a huge problem (or at least was pending the moves we make). I’d expect him to have more trouble getting to the rim and finishing a year older and with less space.

  482. Hubert
    November 16, 2020 at 3:07 pm
    why can’t we just use our three draft picks and add some disposable veterans to fill the gaps? This is going to be the most insignificant, least watched NBA season of all time. it is literally the worst time to make a splash.

    This is actually basically what we did last off season, so it’s not totally impossible.

  483. As usual, Z-Man doesn’t bother reading what I wrote. Repeated here, with emphasis: They didn’t cater to Westbrook to boost his assist and rebounding numbers.

  484. Knick fan not in NJ: This is actually basically what we did last off season, so it’s not totally impossible.

    Here’s the problem with that strategy. If we do that again, it means there are still no “good players” that want to come to NY to play. So we are going to overpay a few mercenaries to play for us for a year again. If we stay bad, we’ll eventually luck ourselves into drafting a few good players that over time will develop. But I’d way rather add 1-2 good players in their 20s that can make us better right now and continue drafting, trading, managing space well, developing young players etc,.. long term.

  485. Calling Westbrook “done” is a very bold bet-statement.
    Like calling Frank a future All Defensive Team member.
    It shows serious lurking gambling intentions.

  486. Deeefense: Here’s the problem with that strategy.If we do that again, it means there are still no “good players” that want to come to NY to play.So we are going to overpay a few mercenaries to play for us for a year again.If we stay bad, we’ll eventually luck ourselves into drafting a few good players that over time will develop.But I’d way rather add 1-2 good players in their 20s that can make us better right now and continue drafting, trading, managing space well, developing young players etc,.. long term.

    I think most or all of us would rather add good young players. I’m sure Knicks’ management would too. But Perry seems to have a clear sense of value. I think just going with the draft and stop gap players would reflect the organization’s conclusion that the available good young players are too expensive. Personally, I don’t think it’s so bad to have management that thinks that way. They may not make a splash, but we should get slowly better if we don’t do bad deals and keep drafting. That’s so much better than prior GM’s, I’ll take it.

  487. Another classic Strat take. Starts with a sensible statement.

    ‘So we are going to overpay a few mercenaries to play for us for a year again.’

    But then he takes it somewhere either completely nonsensical, or (as in this case) absurdly obvious and yet still somehow off-point (I’d rather we get good).

    But I do agree that just getting a random few vets is a pretty useless holding pattern. We ought to aim a little higher, at least (but please not like Westbrook heights….). And at a bare minimum let’s not get four totally mediocre guys who all play the same position.

  488. Knew Your Nicks:
    Calling Westbrook “done” is a very bold bet-statement.
    Like calling Frank a future All Defensive Team member.
    It shows serious lurking gambling intentions.

    What does analyzing usage of language to predict gambling tendencies show? I could qualify the statement with a billion caveats but that takes time and effort that goes unappreciated.

  489. cgreene:
    New thread??? I think we are getting into record territory here no?

    Nah, the thread that lead to bobneptune being descontinued, back in June or July, had 900 or more comments, IIRC. Jowles was relieved when a new thread was created, since his smartphone was allegedly producing smoke while loading the big old thread.

  490. #What does analyzing usage of language to predict gambling tendencies show? I could qualify the statement with a billion caveats but that takes time and effort that goes unappreciated.#

    I recently “predicted” that Frank will join the All Defensive Team so i guess that it shows self-observation.

  491. Honestly, I would rather they go after some RFAs and UFAs that are still very young like Jontay Porter, Gary Clark, Wenyen Gabriel, Furkan Korkmaz, Harry Giles, Bryn Forbes, etc. than drop 44mil per year on one guy at this point. They should be rooting around in the dirt looking for dropped change during free agency and that’s pretty much it.

  492. But then he takes it somewhere either completely nonsensical, or (as in this case) absurdly obvious and yet still somehow off-point (I’d rather we get good).

    I’m not sure why it was necessary to throw the kind of dig that leads to all the problems here.

    Then I feel compelled you give what I get (which I’ll refrain from here).

    The obvious difference between me and some others is that I am willing to sign players in their late 20s and even as old as 30 as long as they will be productive for the duration for their contract and they are at a price that makes sense. I don’t insist that every player being on the same exact win curve.

    IMO, there’s an developmental upside to young players playing with experienced seasoned pros, getting into the playoffs etc…

    IMO, there’s a benefit to having a good team when it comes to attracting free agents and players looking to be traded.

    IMO, there’s a benefit to having established good players when to comes to trying to roll up into a established star that may be looking to move.

    Theses are the kind of benefits you miss when you get too tight assed about building exclusively via the draft and wanting everyone to be very young and on the same win curve. It takes forever and you miss out on some things by limiting yourself.

  493. But Perry seems to have a clear sense of value. I think just going with the draft and stop gap players would reflect the organization’s conclusion that the available good young players are too expensive.

    Perry is incompetent beyond not giving out long bad contracts.

    He hasn’t found any good young players to gamble on and has generally overpaid the dregs he has brought in on short term deals – all while not fitting any of the pieces together well. He’s terrible.

    None of us wants to overpay, but sometimes you have to stretch your thinking beyond 22-26 years old or you’ll remain in hell for a very long time

  494. Harden has a Hard-on for Brooklyn, and supposedly turned down a 50MM extension from the Rockets.

    But I’m sure Houston doesn’t give 2 shits where he wants to go, and would probably love to send him to somewhere like Sacramento or Cleveland.

  495. Early Bird:
    As usual, Z-Man doesn’t bother reading what I wrote. Repeated here, with emphasis: They didn’t cater to Westbrook to boost his assist and rebounding numbers.

    I understood exactly what you wrote. You said they didn’t cater to what he did as MVP (elite rebounding and passing, inefficient high-volume shooting) and that they “sculpted” a lineup that he didn’t suck in, but he sucked anyway. In other words, they tried to make him a second fiddle to Harden and learned that the two couldn’t coexist, which was widely expected at the time of the trade.

    For Westbrook to be effective, he needs free rein to be Mr. Triple-double. If you take that away from him, he’s a square peg in a round hold. That doesn’t make him “done.”

    Westbrook’s OKC teams won a ridiculous percentage of games where he had a triple-double. I don’t get the thinly-veiled criticism that he “boosted” his rebounding and assist numbers. The narrative that he somehow cheated his way to triple-doubles is ridiculous. That’s his game. He’s a great rebounder for a guard. If he beats his own teammates to rebounds, is that stat-padding or talent? This article presents both sides of that argument pretty well…I think it’s talent but whatever, it’s just an opinion.

    Now it’s possible that his right knee will start to go all Melo on him….but last year he was pretty much as athletic as he was the years before. Just not as effective, mainly because of Houston being a bad situation for him.

  496. He hasn’t found any good young players to gamble on and has generally overpaid the dregs he has brought in on short term deals – all while not fitting any of the pieces together well. He’s terrible.

    Good young players come on the market rarely. I don’t think there were any who changed teams last off season that you could say we missed out on. If there was no one there, I don’t hold it against him not hiring one as a free agent. I don’t agree he overpaid the free agents he brought in last off season either. Portis was expensive, but everything else was the normal premium for being a short term hire. I do agree the fit of the players he did hire was terrible. Part of that was bad luck, with injuries happening to the guards he hired, but not to the bigs; but part of it was hiring Randle. Randle really doesn’t fit with the rest of the team, but was the team’s best scorer on an offense challenged team. That put the coaches in a bind.

    Overall, I don’t agree Perry is terrible. As I’ve said before, I’m happy with a GM that doesn’t do major damage by making bad deals. Actually making good deals for good players is too much to aspire to as a Knicks fan.

  497. thinking about this harden stuff, the trade that will never happen but ticks some boxes might be harden for donovan mitchell, or specifically harden and pj tucker for mitchell, conley and the jazz 1st (post pick).

    although hardly an even return for houston, this lets fertitta say he got a young star in return, while still shedding a ton from his future salary, his one true love. and while utah irl might just refuse to trade mitchell for anyone, they would have a crazy two way team and avoid a little risk from the mitchell/gobert spat. hard to find a better cast to surround harden (in terms of fit) than gobert and three of bogdanovic/ingles/tucker/o’neale, all of whose can either space of defend or both.

  498. Ultimately, what do you think we’ll have to give up for Westbrook? Probably at least a young player and two picks or reverse that (plus Randle hopefully).

    I’m just trying to prepare myself for the damage before this happens.

    Maybe Frank, Dennis, Randle, and #27? I was going to say Knox, but there’s no way they trade TWO UK players.

    I just hope it’s not 27 plus one of the Dallas picks, too.

    Shit, now that I look at that typed out, the Knicks will probably have to bring a 3rd team in or eat another Houston contract…

    Jesus, this could get really ugly.

  499. I was just listening to a podcast where they said Houston is having trouble moving WestBrook because teams don’t want to give up assets for him. I hope that is true about the Knicks.

  500. Z-man: I don’t get the thinly-veiled criticism that he “boosted” his rebounding and assist numbers.

    That was my criticism, I don’t think it was thinly veiled at all.

    Z-man: This article presents both sides of that argument pretty well…I think it’s talent but whatever, it’s just an opinion.

    Nothing in the article conflicts with the premise that his teammates let Westbrook grab more rebounds.

    The article claims that Westbrook’s Net Rebounding Value increased during those years. However, we would expect Net Rebounding Value to increase anytime a player grabs more rebounds. The finding is consistent and expected under the hypothesis that OKC schemed to boost Westbrook’s rebounding numbers. Of course, the finding is also consistent with the hypothesis that Westbrook simply improved as a rebounder.

    Overall, I fail to see how the article refutes the premise that OKC artificially inflated Westbrook’s rebounding numbers.

    As the article points out, the likely explanation for Steven Adams’s increase in rebounds, especially defensive rebounds, is the absence of Westbrook.

    Also, consider that Westbrook’s rebounding improvement happened largely on the defensive end. Defensive rebounds are easier to let your teammate grab, or box out and then let your teammate grab.

    Westbrook may have a better year statistically next year, but I’ll be skeptical he’s adding more value.

  501. Knick fan not in NJ: Good young players come on the market rarely. I don’t think there were any who changed teams last off season that you could say we missed out on. If there was no one there, I don’t hold it against him not hiring one as a free agent.

    I largely agree with your point. But to add, I’d argue that there was exactly one young and potential impact player who changed teams–Julius Randle. Perry got him even if it didn’t work out.

  502. Knick fan not in NJ: I was just listening to a podcast where they said Houston is having trouble moving WestBrook because teams don’t want to give up assets for him. I hope that is true about the Knicks

    I saw a (fake) post that the Knicks had traded Knox, Frank and a 2022 1st round pick for him. I hate it but said, “it could have been worse”.

  503. Early Bird: Nothing in the article conflicts with the premise that his teammates let Westbrook grab more rebounds.

    The article claims that Westbrook’s Net Rebounding Value increased during those years. However, we would expect Net Rebounding Value to increase anytime a player grabs more rebounds. The finding is consistent and expected under the hypothesis that OKC schemed to boost Westbrook’s rebounding numbers. Of course, the finding is also consistent with the hypothesis that Westbrook simply improved as a rebounder.

    As the article points out, the likely explanation for Steven Adams’s increase in rebounds, especially defensive rebounds, is the absence of Westbrook.

    I don’t get how you go from “Westbrook got a lot of rebounds” to “his teammates let him get more rebounds.” Why would any coach, especially an established coach, scheme to boost an individual player’s rebounds if it wasn’t beneficial to the team? The proposition that Adams got more rebounds after Westbrook was traded could simply mean that the remaining guards were inferior rebounders to Russ and Adams had to pick up the slack.

    By your logic, OKC’s coaches and players allowed Russ to get rebounds just to pad his stats, even though it might have been detrimental to the team. That’s just nuts. The team went 100-22 when he got a triple-double. It would be insane to tell Russ “hey, don’t rebound so well…”

    Then, consider that Westbrook did not lead the team in rebounding except for one year in the triple-double stretch, and that the opposing team was also going for those rebounds….it’s pretty cynical to say that his teammates and coaches were just padding Russ’s stats, and the opposing team just let a 6’3″ guy dominate the boards night after night. Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with Westbrook being by far the most explosive athlete on the floor pretty…

  504. just checking in to see if anything awful has happened with the knicks…i’ve invested waaaay too much with this team to miss any truly miseriffic moments…

    seems like we’re still just telling each other scary stories of russ in orange and blue…

    having a bit of a stuart smalley moment, so, i’ll say this about russ:
    “It’s easier to put on slippers than to carpet the whole world.”

  505. Rebounds or not Westbrook is a ball stopper who has shot an efg% below league average every season and a ts% below league average all but two seasons in his career. He gets lots of assists but does it by dominating the ball and forcing the entire offense to run through him.

    At his very prime his explosiveness and rebounding maybe made up for his inefficiency but he is more than a couple years removed from his prime. Even at 90% he is a drain on an offense at less than that he quickly becomes a serious liability. If he could shoot half as much he could have value but as long as he’s taking 20+ shots a game he will be a burden.

    I wouldn’t take Westbrook even if he came with a 1st round pick and we got rid of randle. He is fools gold and will torpedo any team he goes to next year.

  506. Ben R:
    Rebounds or not Westbrook is a ball stopper who has shot an efg% below league average every season and a ts% below league average all but two seasons in his career. He gets lots of assists but does it by dominating the ball and forcing the entire offense to run through him.

    At his very prime his explosiveness and rebounding maybe made up for his inefficiency but he is more than a couple years removed from his prime. Even at 90% he is a drain on an offense at less than that he quickly becomes a serious liability. If he could shoot half as much he could have value but as long as he’s taking 20+ shots a game he will be a burden.

    I wouldn’t take Westbrook even if he came with a 1st round pick and we got rid of randle. He is fools gold and will torpedo any team he goes to next year.

    I largely agree. Which is why I’m fully expecting the Knicks to trade for him.

  507. I was really worried we’d trade for Paul. I thought that would be the worst case and now in great knicks fashion the worst case got so much worse. I don’t think there is a player I’d want less than westbrook. That makes it probably a sure thing.

  508. I’m not as down on Westbrook as some, but agree it would be a terrible move, considering the alternatives.

    Looks like Houston and Milwaukee are wheeling and dealing…

  509. Well, Rockets now have some firsts to trade with Westbrook. Covingtom to Blazers.

    The guillotine is 35% of the way down

    Hopefully, the guillotine will also put this thread out of its misery tmw

  510. The Milwaukee Bucks have agreed to acquire Jrue Holiday from the New Orleans Pelicans for George Hill, Eric Bledsoe and three future first round picks and two pick swaps. In terms of pick compensation, the deal is similar to what the Pelicans received from the Los Angeles Lakers for Anthony Davis.

    The above is from RealGM. Holiday for the same price as Anthony Davis? Griffin is indeed a good GM. But if this deal means Giannis signs long term with Milwaukee, it’s probably worth it for them.

  511. Does swapping out Bledsoe for Holiday really move the needle much for Milwaukee? Maybe Holiday won’t crash and burn in the playoffs like Bledsoe has but I don’t see him as much of an improvement- Bledsoe was pretty good in Milwaukee. The only thing that’s going to keep Giannis there is at least getting to the finals. You’d think they could have found more of a difference maker for three firsts.

  512. all the pels hopes though – come down to zion’s health…but yeah, griffin is earning his money in new orleans…thunder with some assets and a million picks…as we wait to see what rose will do…

    i got to imagine by now thibs has come to the realization that we don’t really have a starting point guard on our team…doesn’t look like we’ll be able to draft one – i wonder what rose will do about that…

    there’s a few out there that could be available: bledsoe, augustin, rubio, teague, conley, probably not dragic or van fleet…too funny, every year it’s the same – will the knicks finally acquire an actual point guard…

    don’t let rose off the hook thibs, get us a point guard…

  513. This trade must be read as

    – 3 first-round picks 2 swaps Bledsoe and Hill
    FOR
    – Holiday Giannis, both resigned under the table (or even just Giannis resigned).

    That’s the only way this extreme haul the Pelicans got makes any sense. It was the ultimate all-in, but if Giannis stays in Milwaukee for at least 3 more years, it’s worth it.

  514. WOW

    And the Bucks just traded DiVincenzo, Ilyasova and DJ Johnson for Sacramento’s Bogdan Bogdanovic, a coveted 3-point weapon, in a sign-and-trade.

    It’s the all-in to end all all-ins.

  515. it just seems like chris paul would have been a better fit in milwaukee (for both), would have saved the bucks a couple of picks, his salary is huge though…or maybe cp3 just didn’t want to live in the cold…

  516. IMO Holiday is way better than Bledsoe – Bledsoe’s a good defender but too small to guard anyone but PG/SG, and offensively he has been a disaster in the playoffs. The last 2 years in the playoffs he has a TS of 480 and 494 on usage in the low 20s, last year a 17% turnover rate, shooting <30% from 3 point range – ie. possibly personally responsible for them losing.

    Holiday has only been in the playoffs once in the last 5+ years, but he was awesome in those playoffs – 22/6/5 on 58% TS while hounding Dame Lillard and ultimately guarding Steph and Durant in the GS series. He can play on-ball or off, guard at least 3 positions credibly.

    IMO Milwaukee had to do this. And the Bogdanovic S&T is brilliant from their perspective as notit hard caps them – so they fulfill their promise to Giannis while limiting their financial exposure at least this year.

    Holiday, Middleton, Bogdanovic, Giannis, Brook Lopez is a pretty awesome starting point – and all of those guys are pretty complementary. They have 4 guys who can credibly dribble/pass/shoot, with Lopez being a great rim protector and plausible floor spacer. They are going to be an absolute terror defensively. Will be interesting to see who they are able to get as minimum contracts and with BAE or mini-MLE, as they really have no other assets to trade at this point.

    Just goes to show how absolutely bereft of talent this Knicks squad is. If they even had one or two players that could start or be a 6th man on a contender, they could've leveraged these desperate teams just like NO and OKC have. What an absolute failure on the part of Mills and Phil Jackson before him.

    Meanwhile, given the state of play in the EC now (and Giannis off the board most likely in summer 2021), it's clearer than ever that the Knicks should be keeping their powder dry and play out the string this year to see if any of the young players have potential, then aiming for a top5 pick in the upcoming draft.

  517. I’m just imagining Steve Mills and his little tiny stash of late first round picks and his big talk about being well positioned for whatever with the Knicks’ “war chest” when it’s not even a pop gun compared to what the Pelicans and Thunder have.

  518. I seem to remember reading repeatedly that the Thunder did defer to Russ for rebounds, but it was to increase the speed at which he would get out on the break, catching the opposing team flatfooted and leading to that beautifully fearsome downhill basket-trashing. I’m sure teammates occasionally deferred to him as he neared a triple-double to help him get it (we’ve all seen that with triple-double games, whether it’s helping a teammate get another shot or a rebound). But my understanding was it was a purposeful strategy, but one that was designed to be helpful to the team. Didn’t hurt that Russ is/was an energy demon who was a natural at chasing rebounds anyway. Which means you’re both right, as painful as that might be…

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