NY Post: James Harden adds another triple-double as Nets drop rival Knicks

From Brien Lewis:

For the Nets, it was a laugher that ended up as an escape.

For the Knicks, it was a comeback that fell short and ended in a tantrum.

The red-hot Nets outlasted their cross-river rivals 117-112 in front of 1,637 at Barclays Center on Monday night. It wasn’t simple or easy, but it was a W added to the win column — a league-high fifth straight.

“You’re playing NBA players, they have nothing to lose when they’re down 18 points and you have everything to lose. That’s how this goes sometimes,” Nets coach Steve Nash said. “We got the win, which is the most important thing. Tip your hat to the Knicks. They played hard and made it difficult for us. In the end we got the win.”

The Nets built an 18-point lead, only to see the Knicks keep chipping away to cut it to three in the waning seconds. And after Kyrie Irving (34 points) and Julius Randle (33 points) led their teams in scoring, the final, fateful play fittingly came down to them as well.

When Randle went to put up a potential tying 3-pointer, Irving swiped and seemingly got a piece of the ball. Randle came back down and got called for a travel with three seconds left. After James Harden (21 points, 15 assists, 15 rebounds) iced the game at the free-throw line, Randle had to be restrained.

Referee Scott Foster called a travel, and said through a pool reporter that they ruled the ball was touched but not knocked out of Randle’s hands.

“I was either gonna foul early, but I saw him lining up for a jump shot. I felt I could get a good hand on it. Scott called travel,” Irving said. “I thought Julius made a good play afterwards putting it down. I was gonna foul him after that just to get him to the free-throw line. That’s how it looked. That’s how it went.”

I was looking for some hope for this game by watching the Nets nearly lose to the Pistons and it is shocking just how nearly identical this game was to that one. The Nets build up a big lead, get sloppy and then the other team gets close at the end and then the Nets’ stars bail them out.

That isn’t to say that the Knicks, and Thibs in particular, don’t deserve a ton of credit for the way that they closed out this game. The final minutes of this game were a master class in how much defense really connects to the will – the Knicks practically willed their way to a chance at tying the game in the closing seconds with a three pointer. That’s obviously all from Thibs and so the Knicks deserve a ton of credit for that.

At the same time, as the Post alludes to, this was a laugher that the Nets foolishly took their feet off of the gas on and the Knicks, like the Pistons before them, took advantage of that faltering. You have to wonder what will happen if this same sort of thing happens against the Sixers or the Bucks. The Nets’ stars might not be able to bail them out in the end.

Of course, the Nets are also doing all of this without Kevin Durant, so you can easily say, “Well, duh, they’ll just add Kevin Durant to this same roster and dominate” and that might very well be the answer (we saw tonight that even when the Knicks were locking down Harden, that meant Kyrie could score with abandon – what do you do when you add Durant to the mix?), but it’s still a cause for concern for them.

Meanwhile, the Knicks should feel proud of how hard they fought in this game. I sure hope that that hard work gets paid off in a karmic victory against the Sixers on Tuesday night. The Sixers are playing without Joel Embiid, so it’s not outside the realm of possibility, even with the other main Sixers playing at a really high level right now, as well (Tobias Harris might not be a max guy, but he’s playing really freakin’ well for the Sixers this year).

As for the contested play, I think they should have called a jump ball, but I can see the argument for a travel.

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92 thoughts to “NY Post: James Harden adds another triple-double as Nets drop rival Knicks”

  1. [Littlest kid on Passover voice]

    Why is this fake comeback different from all the other fake comebacks? Is this fake comeback different from all the other fake comebacks?

  2. The way this game was going a comeback didn’t seem very possible so it was pleasantly surprising to have even half a chance on this one.

  3. Brian Cronin:
    Stronger competition, so it’s more impressive, I think.

    In addition, the ongoing grit helps to change the perception away from the LOL Knicks. With a bit more talent, these will become real comebacks.
    edit- bit may not be enough to compete with the elite. Thibs does squeeze the maximum amount out of the team’s assets.

  4. I think our comeback wasn’t a fake one, because we also missed a ton of 3PA in the end. So we couldn’t finish the job, but the defense was outstanding. I like this grit and grind play a lot, kind of brings back the 90s a bit. It’s real fun. :)
    About the laugher, well i have to say RJ was playing bad in the 1st half, but then he started, as Clyde would put it, to percolate on the 2nd half. Nets are older and we lasted a lot longer than them, i think. It was very nice to see.

  5. Bullock played 42 mins and Randle played 41 mins, i don’t know if we’ll be gifted with the same intensity from them today. RJ and Quick played around 35 mins so they’ll probably be fine, they’re super young.

  6. Nice read from ESPN, with maybe some light to why the Knicks and Drummond are being talked about in the same sentence.

    2021 NBA trade deadline: The blueprint for the New York Knicks to be winners
    Should New York be approaching the deadline as an opportunity to upgrade the roster for the next two months? Or is it better for the Knicks to stick to a long-term plan of building around All-Star Julius Randle, second-year wing RJ Barrett, center Mitchell Robinson and promising rookie Immanuel Quickley?

  7. It was a good effort, this team is really easy to root for,
    we’re not the laughinstock of the league anymore and that’s a major improvement.

    Thibs and the coaching staff deserve a lot of credit for that and we’re lucky to have many workaholics between our players’ ranks, but the global talent is what it is.

    We’ll be there to fight for the play in tournament and to do so we must defend like crazy, crush the weaker teams and try to setup some traps to good ones (starting with the next two games with Philly).

    We have a couple of solid blocks (Julius, RJ) and some good supporting players (Mitch following the Gobert tracks and IQ as a future sixth man Lou Williams’ style), we need a starting PG and a starting wing, preferably at least one of them a star, to raise the level of the Payton’s and Bullock’s roles.

    I’m very happy with this team, the progress is clear even from the start of the season.
    I think it’s too early to go for a mega-trade,
    with the kids’ growth, a couple of good picks and some smart free agent signings we could be better next year and then in 2022-2023 we could be ready for a big splash.

    The only real downer of the year for me is Toppin.
    I understand that he’s playing in a different role than in college, that he missed training camp and so on, but too often he looks lost and he tends to do mistakes in bunches, yesterday he was unwatchable.

    (and one could argue that we lost the game in those 4 minutes where the bench unit was destroyed, not all Toppin’s fault)

    P.S.
    I’d love to have Doug McD back next year…

  8. It’s like the game last night was genetically engineered to drive Knicks fans crazy (and create an actual rivalry with the Nets):

    1) Quickley starting finally – was it the right move? Man was that 2nd unit awful without him. DISCUSS!!!

    2) Ntilikina plays, is a complete zero on offense, but changes the game on defense. Box score shows total lack of impact, has highest +/- on the team. Does Frank suck or is he amazing? DISCUSS!!

    3) RJ gets 24 points on 14 shots, shoots 10/10 FT and plays solid D. Is he Jordan or only Pippen? DISCUSS!!!

    4) Randle gets another 30/10/5 game, looks the part of the star but juuuust can’t get us over the hump. Is he a #2 or a #3 on a great team? DISCUSS!!!

    5) controversial ending with us getting f*cked by the refs. To be clear, the f*cking wasn’t just the last play, but basically every call for the last 7 minutes. Why does the NBA hate the Knicks? DISCUSS!!!

    Seriously though – what a fun game to watch. It never actually occurred to me until the last possession that we might actually win the game. Really really fun to see this team scrap and scrap and scrap. And from the comments on Twitter – lots of NBA stars were watching this game. This is the kind of game (assuming we don’t lay a complete egg against Philly tonight) that can really change a franchise’s reputation.

    And remember, we basically did this without 2 of our starters.

  9. Max: PS: I’d love to have Doug McD back next year…

    Max, go read the ESPN article i shared, they even mention McBucketts… what were the odds!?

    Frank: 5) controversial ending with us getting f*cked by the refs. To be clear, the f*cking wasn’t just the last play, but basically every call for the last 7 minutes. Why does the NBA hate the Knicks? DISCUSS!!!

    The refereeing is not going well this season, but in the last call i’d get much upset as Randle did (or even more)… the referee that called the play was exactly on his back, how can he see from that angle if Kyrie touched the ball or not??

  10. Frank: It’s like the game last night was genetically engineered to drive Knicks fans crazy (and create an actual rivalry with the Nets):

    1) Quickley starting finally – was it the right move? Man was that 2nd unit awful without him. DISCUSS!!!

    2) Ntilikina plays, is a complete zero on offense, but changes the game on defense. Box score shows total lack of impact, has highest +/- on the team. Does Frank suck or is he amazing? DISCUSS!!

    3) RJ gets 24 points on 14 shots, shoots 10/10 FT and plays solid D. Is he Jordan or only Pippen? DISCUSS!!!

    4) Randle gets another 30/10/5 game, looks the part of the star but juuuust can’t get us over the hump. Is he a #2 or a #3 on a great team? DISCUSS!!!

    5) controversial ending with us getting f*cked by the refs. To be clear, the f*cking wasn’t just the last play, but basically every call for the last 7 minutes. Why does the NBA hate the Knicks? DISCUSS!!!

    And remember, we basically did this without 2 of our starters.

    Let’s be real. We’re only going to discuss Frank Ntilikina.

    Also, we arguably almost won precisely because we didn’t have one of those starters.

    Alan:
    [Littlest kid on Passover voice]

    Why is this fake comeback different from all the other fake comebacks? Is this fake comeback different from all the other fake comebacks?

    The difference is the defense looked spectacular. Most fake comebacks seem like lazy play by the opponent rather than good play by the Knicks.

    Real or not, we had what people call momentum. I think Randle’s frustration partially stems from his feeling that the game was actually, if improbably, winnable. You get that rising feeling of hope in your chest and, suddenly, it gets squashed not by the opponent but the refs. I eagerly await…

  11. Despite the loss that game should be Exhibit A in Thibs’ CotY submission. The most notable aspect of this team all year to me has been that they just do not freaking quit ever and last night was the epitome of that. The Nets lead was 15 going on 30 basically all game starting sometime in the second quarter and through pretty much pure force of will the Nets never really got the separation that looked totally inevitable. His “Game 7 of the Finals” syndrome has real long-term downsides I think (not just in development, but also I think being too intense over time burns out a team’s willingness to listen to you) but in the short-run you really can’t argue with the impact it has had on this team. The Knicks really do play every game like everything is on the line and that has a hell of an impact.

    Obi getting completely dropped from the rotation in the second half while Taj played the second most of any big seems like a harbinger of rotation decisions to come. When Mitch is back I would not be at all surprised to see Taj getting the backup PF minutes. I’ve been keeping the faith on Obi (to an extent) but it’s rapidly looking like this year at least is a total write-off and you have to just hope with a full offseason he comes back a totally new guy next year.

  12. The refereeing is not going well this season, but in the last call i’d get much upset as Randle did (or even more)… the referee that called the play was exactly on his back, how can he see from that angle if Kyrie touched the ball or not??

    The refs didn’t claim Kyrie didn’t touch the ball but said that the rule is that if touching the ball didn’t affect Randle’s possession of it, it was still a travel on his part since he maintained possession of the ball. I’m not defending it, just explaining what they said.

  13. There’s a thread on twitter featuring former NBA official Ronnie Nunn – basically if the offensive player is in a shooting motion (or passing) and the ball is on the way up and the attempt is interrupted because of a defender’s hand on the ball, it should be held ball –> jump ball as opposed to being called a travel.

    I guess we’ll see what the L2M says. But based on the reaction from actual basketball players (Lillard and others) and Doris Burke, my sense is whatever the rule is, how it is usually called is either play-on or a held ball. Basically the refs shit the bed and in retrospect tried to find some justification for it — ergo the “alight” term which seems like it was used to distract us — “what was that word he used, hahaha alight” as opposed to drilling down on exactly what happened and what the explanation was.

    Re: Obi – he can’t play high leverage minutes at this point. Let the development staff work with him on whatever it is. Honestly Knox is a better option at this point.

    Early Bird: Also, we arguably almost won precisely because we didn’t have one of those starters.

    lol I meant Mitch and Rose, not Elf.

  14. I don’t know if it’s something to be happy about or depressed about, but our team is in great shape despite completely whiffing on 3 lottery picks.

    Imagine if we had hit on just one of them….

  15. I don’t know if it’s something to be happy about or depressed about, but our team is in great shape despite completely whiffing on 3 lottery picks.

    Imagine if we had hit on just one of them….

    The super aggravating thing is it’s not like we even needed to hit home runs with all of them. Sure it’s fun to fantasize about having Mitchell over Frank, SGA over Knox, and Haliburton over Obi, but I would be extremely happy just to have Kennard, Bridges (Mikal, but either one), and Vassell.

  16. The way this game was going a comeback didn’t seem very possible

    Actually I was expecting a comeback the whole time. You could see that they never threw in the towel, despite being knocked back to 15 and 17 down again and again. They had an edge they didn’t have in the Bucks game. If they had hit a few 3 pointers, could have been a thrilling win. But I’m still ok with it – that defensive grit is what I’ve been missing for so long. Many of us are fans because of the 90s team, and this team is starting to feel a little like that. With luck we can find the one offensive piece that team never had….

  17. Frank: Re: Obi – he can’t play high leverage minutes at this point. Let the development staff work with him on whatever it is. Honestly Knox is a better option at this point.

    There’s a good amount of evidence that Knox can’t even clear that very low bar.

    Raptor favors Obi
    WS favors Obi
    BPM is a tie

    Knox has been shooting better, but even this is deceptive. Knox shoots well from the corners, but that’s RJ’s spot.

    RJ – left corner: 53%
    RJ – above the break: 30%

    Knox – both corners: 54%
    Knox – above the break: 26%

    Obi – both corners: 15%
    Obi – above the break: 42%

    Obivously, the samples are really (stupidly) small, plus I don’t follow the rotations closely, but if RJ is in the game the Knicks may be better shooting 3s with Obi playing

  18. despite completely whiffing on 3 lottery picks.

    Ntilikina is the only one that doesn’t sting. Not because he doesn’t suck, because he does, but because there weren’t really many better options at the time. We’d all like to think that Adebayo or Mitchell could be had, but I don’t remember them having much buzz at all. 2017 was a rough draft.

    Knox over SGA was egregious. Toppin over Haliburton is looking egregious. And we wouldn’t need both of those guys. With Barrett looking more and more like an every-other-night force on the slash and drive, you just need another primary ball handler so as to not force Barrett into a shooter’s role.

    Just endlessly frustrating that the Greek Chorus has better foresight than the executives actually tasked with running one of the most valuable franchises in American sport. Like imagine if Louisville were run so poorly. How would they manage to pay the coaching staff?

  19. Sure it’s fun to fantasize about having Mitchell over Frank, SGA over Knox, and Haliburton over Obi, but I would be extremely happy just to have Kennard, Bridges (Mikal, but either one), and Vassell.

    The killer, though, is that we all knew better. Sooooo frustrating. I can’t remember if I was the only SGA stan, but EVERYONE would have been happy with Bridges, and almost everyone would have picked Hali. Freaking hell.

    I make myself feel better by saying that I’m pleased with our #8 pick, Quickley, who’s doing ok, and our #25, Obi, is a project but has shown some potential. That’s the only way to think of it without screaming.

  20. I’M MOSELY!

    As you can tell by my avatar, that movie is my favorite. Among the most memorable performances in a movie full of them, and Kotto was also the boss on one of my favorite shows, Homicide: Life on the Street.

  21. It’s just so strange that Hali was never even on the Knicks’ radar… possibly the only top-20 guy who wasn’t.

    I can’t imagine what “red flag” they had pinned on him (on top of his stellar production, he’s also supposedly the ultimate high-character guy.) My only guess is that they thought Obi had “superstar” potential and that Hali, even if talented, would never amount to more than a “role player.”

    Also, I think they got stuck on the hometown-hero marketing aspect of Obi. Plus, let’s face it — at that point, we all thought Randle was trash and so maybe they saw a gaping hole at PF that needed filling?

  22. Alan:
    I’M MOSELY!

    As you can tell by my avatar, that movie is my favorite. Among the most memorable performances in a movie full of them, and Kotto was also the boss on one of my favorite shows, Homicide: Life on the Street.

    I’ve watched Midnight Run like 5 times and never get tired of it.

    “You guys are the worst bounty hunters ever!”

  23. If a challenge is deemed successful, then the team should be awarded another challenge. I don’t see why they shouldn’t be.

  24. The only real downer of the year for me is Toppin.

    I try not to think about it bc it’s such a negative
    thought, but man this team would be one star away from being so damn good if we had taken Halliburton.

    With Halli, RJ, Randle, Mitch, and IQ we’d have had 4/5 of a starting lineup and a 6th man making under $40mm in salary.

    Imagine how happy our KB counterparts in that alternate universe are right now?

  25. with all the talk about Frank’s +/- I went to the box score just now expecting to see something impressive but he was +5.

  26. If a challenge is deemed successful, then the team should be awarded another challenge. I don’t see why they shouldn’t be.

    absolutely…

  27. ess-dog:
    It’s just so strange that Hali was never even on the Knicks’ radar… possibly the only top-20 guy who wasn’t.

    I can’t imagine what “red flag” they had pinned on him (on top of his stellar production, he’s also supposedly the ultimate high-character guy.) My only guess is that they thought Obi had “superstar” potential and that Hali, even if talented, would never amount to more than a “role player.”

    Also, I think they got stuck on the hometown-hero marketing aspect of Obi. Plus, let’s face it — at that point, we all thought Randle was trash and so maybe they saw a gaping hole at PF that needed filling?

    Honestly I think they just drafted him bc Leon Rose’s son is his agent. I don’t mean as nepotism; just that the Rose family overrated him bc their personal connection to the kid created a deep bias.

    On the flip side, the exact faulty process led to Quickley.

    It was their first draft in charge of a team, though, so it’s not competely surprising they went with who they knew. I just hope it’s not the beginning of a worrisome bias pattern.

  28. Hubert and all.

    Ya gotta just let it go. All teams mess up on draft picks. I mean in that alternate universe maybe we don’t pick IQ, ya know?

    This is why I think the strategy shouldn’t necessarily be to tank for the best pick but to just acquire as many firsts as possible. The more you have the more you’re bound to hit on some and that makes up for missing on the others.

    Bad choice with Toppin but what can ya do. At least we’re finally and decent to watch and a young enough team with enough picks and space to keep building.

  29. Hali had several red flags. His shot is weird and a little slow so people were worried about that translating. And he’s skinny as a rail and doesn’t get to the rim that much.

  30. I think every now and then it’s ok to communally grieve over three lottery blunders in 4 years.

    The important thing is not to dwell on those mistakes to the point that you’re not enjoying this revival. I doubt any of us are that sullen.

    Although, I’m not going to lie, I do get pretty agitated during the 12-16 minutes Obi gets in the game.

  31. What’s more important to me is that we don’t compound the mistake by holding onto Obi til he reaches Frank and Knox levels of worthlessness. We need to shop that guy this summer.

  32. i dont want to be dramatic but tonights game is a somewhat of a defining moment… like if we do gut something out tonight, i think its an incredible step from somewhere we’ve been for two decades (which is shit), to a new sorta norm… there’s some house money already this season, so itd be easy to chalk up a beating to a tough back to back… but these are the teams that stand in front of us regardless… wouldnt mind making statements this year…

  33. The Knox pick pisses me off WAY more than Frank or Obi. At least the latter two were on most draft boards around where we picked them (Obi even higher).

    Knox was on no one’s top 10 list , and based on a 3 on 3 workout we drafted him. Just a complete fuck up.

  34. Scuttlebutt on twitter = Knicks possibly interested in Myles Turner.
    Can’t lie, I would not be opposed to that sort of a move.
    Wonder if they’d be interested in something like Mitch + small filler to make salaries work, plus some sort of protected first. I love Mitch but it really does seem the Knicks FO doesn’t.

    I have no idea what it might take to get him. He’s on an ok not great contract (straight $17.5MM this year and next then FA). Seems to me he would fit pretty well next to Randle / RJ given his ability to plausibly shoot the 3 (career 34.9% on low volume 3PA/g).

  35. new mock draft at the athletic has us taking TNFH’s boy Dosunmu at 18, Duke’s Jalen Johnson at 20. Kentucky’s Isaiah Jackson was off the board.

    I like Dosunmu but he has all the makings of a riser, IMO.

  36. Why do they want to trade Turner? Do they just want to play Sabonis at C or is it a salary issue? Is it his rebounding?

    I’d absolutely love to have Turner. He’s basically a perfected version of Mitch, even including the offseason Instagram shooting sessions.

  37. Scuttlebutt on twitter = Knicks possibly interested in Myles Turner.

    There’s enough smoke about centers to believe Mitch is not part of our long term plans.

  38. Thing is, we wouldn’t have drafted Quickley if we picked Hali. It probably would have been Hali/Vernon Carey… still probably a better draft overall but close. They clearly preferred one of Maxey/Quickley though (obviously there’s a ‘circle of trust’ thing going on there.)

    I also wouldn’t count Obi out yet, although I don’t know how he could become more than a decent situational player. He would really have to become a knock-down three-point shooter.

  39. Hubert: Kentucky’s Isaiah Jackson was off the board.

    Not missing Kentucky prospects is what the Det 2nd rd pick is for. -World Wide

  40. Watching Obi is some rough chuckles now but here’s what I consider to avoid going totally apoplectic over it:

    1. In a COVID draft year with only part of a college season player and scarce access to players, everyone’s going off limited intel. Obi was a chalk pick. Remember how we all thought he’d be gone by pick 5? I think that asymmetry of available info helped us get Quickley. Now, of course Hali was the better chalk pick even then because of age and fit.

    2. We didn’t know Randle was going to take this kind of leap. I think I’m not the only one who had “Randle produced about the same, gets flipped for picks, Obi takes his role in the offense.” That’s also me rationalizing why Obi is sent to languish on the perimeter on O, lol.

  41. Thing is, we wouldn’t have drafted Quickley if we picked Hali.

    This continues to make no sense.

    It’s not like the Knicks only needed one guard.

    They loved Quickley, and all evidence suggests they zero in on who they love regardless of need.

  42. Makes a lot of sense to me. Based on the recent FO articles we barely agreed to pick IQ. Having drafted a PG wouldn’t have altered the argument a bit? Especially with an underwhelming Randle?

  43. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Ntilikina is the only one that doesn’t sting. Not because he doesn’t suck, because he does, but because there weren’t really many better options at the time.

    Stings worse for me, as I was nearly 100% certain at the time that Frank was a bad pick, period. While I agree that SGA, Mikal, etc were clearly superior picks to Knox, I had more hope that Knox might develop into a non-scrub than with Frank, mainly because of how hard the PG position is to play and how unsuited Frank was to ever play it.

    With Obi, sheesh, my fave Mike Schmitz laid out his negatives in stark detail, especially on D. Even on O there were red flags, but the D seems so bad that it’s hard to imagine him becoming anything beyond a situational player for at least 2-3 years, if ever.

  44. new mock draft at the athletic has us taking TNFH’s boy Dosunmu at 18, Duke’s Jalen Johnson at 20.

    This would be an incredible haul. I don’t think Johnson will be available to us despite all the (overstated, IMO) off-court concerns, but if he is we should take him questionable fit be damned.

  45. I’m not sure whether to be more or less worried that Obi’s problems are almost entirely on the side of the ball where he was supposed to be the finished article. I think he has been much better than just about anyone expected on defense – he’s not good obviously but he also hasn’t really been a problem. His steal and block numbers look fine, he’s not getting lit up by at least my eye test and the team has been only marginally worse defensively with him on the floor. Both BPM and RPM grade him out as approximately average on defense. I would’ve gladly signed up for that in advance.

    The problem is that he’s not showing any of what we expected on offense.

  46. Hubert: It’s not like the Knicks only needed one guard.

    Amen to this. I understand the people on this board continuing to suggest that it’s an either/or situation, but only because it goes against “conventional wisdom,” a la MIN’s Rubio & Flynn gaffe in 2009. But no one would have been upset had it been Rubio and Curry. Hell, Curry and Flynn would have made the Flynn pick that much more palatable.

    The only way I would chastise the Knicks for taking two guys at the same position is if they were rim-running 5s, which are a dime a dozen anymore, or traditional 5s, which are going the way of the buffalo.

  47. he’s not getting lit up by at least my eye test and the team has been only marginally worse defensively with him on the floor.

    you say tomato i say that’s a fucking eggplant buddy

  48. Yeah its really hard for me to get upset over the process of picking Obi. I understand he was not a lot of people’s favorite choice (wasn’t mine either) however….

    1. Most of Knicks fandom wanted Randle traded either before the season started or by the trade deadline. No one before the season started considered him to be a foundational piece. The fact that he stepped it up and became and all-star and is now considered part of the core is remarkable and unexpected.

    2. Since Randle wasn’t considered a part of the core, the Knicks had needs everywhere.

    3. Obi was drafted where he should have been. In fact, he actually “slipped” to us. When you suck, you’re supposed to pick BPA. Who that is in a weird draft is definitely debatable, but he wasn’t a Knox or Frank pick. He wasn’t considered a reach.

    It just turned out to be a bad pick partly because he’s a lot more raw than I think most people thought he would be (supposed to be “NBA ready”) and he overlaps Randle. But before Randle blew up, Obi would not have been considered an overlap because Randle was going to be on his way out. If Randle was playing the same way he did last year, Obi might still be backing him up but he’d be getting a lot more minutes and if he showed anything, Randle would either be traded or his option would not be picked up.

  49. Alan:
    I’M MOSELY!

    As you can tell by my avatar, that movie is my favorite. Among the most memorable performances in a movie full of them, and Kotto was also the boss on one of my favorite shows, Homicide: Life on the Street.

    RIP
    Buon viaggio Tenente Giardello

  50. BernieEarnie:
    Makes a lot of sense to me.Based on the recent FO articles we barely agreed to pick IQ.Having drafted a PG wouldn’t have altered the argument a bit?

    teams don’t think that way any more. Just look at the team who drafted Halliburton.

    Besides, we didn’t draft quickley bc we needed a PG. The argument was “coach says we need shooting and he’s the best shooter.” Both those things would have still been true if we had taken Halli.

  51. Everyone on the board wanted Hali, but they didn’t take him and that was a royal fuck up.

    That said, Obi has a lot of skill and athleticism and is better on D than advertised, but just hasn’t found what works for him and what doesn’t. Something would, IMO, he just needs to find it. He needs game reps to do that. Not practice reps.

    It looks like the outlook of the team and roster have changed so much (mostly Randle’s improvement) that he probably isn’t going to get those game reps. So he should be moved now, or at the latest, this summer before, as Hubert says, he depreciates too much. Right now he still hasn’t depreciated that much.

    Other than Hali, I’m not going to sweat taking Obi’s skillset at 8 over the reasonable alternatives at 8 – this wasn’t all that great a draft. Looks like it’s not going to work out. Shots worth taking sometimes don’t work out. So be it.

  52. Has the team run one pick and roll with Obi? It seems that the coaches are exacerbating his offensive issues, by having him on the perimeter.

  53. I just cannot see Jalen Johnson getting past, like, the top 6 picks. He’s got too much going for him even if there are off court concerns. Would love to see him fall right into our laps though! If we get any combination of Johnson/Springer/Dosunmu/Wagner that would be a home run draft. Alas, everyone but Dosunmu projects to be gone by the time we pick. But I’d also be happy with some combination of Duarte/Dosunmu/Sengun/Butler

  54. I think it was Vorkunov that noted Obi has had 16 pick and rolls run for him in his entire playing time, while Taj Gibson had a similar number but in half as many games. We do run the pick and roll occasionally, but it seems Thibs would rather have Taj as roll man than Obi for whatever reason.

  55. I’ve brought this up a few times before, but the only way we’re going to be able to fairly evaluate Obi is if he gets to play serious minutes in a game. And I know that’s not possible right now with Randle ahead of him and Thibs (justifiably) trying to win games.

    I think we saw glimpses of what Obi might be in the Bucks blowout – 19 minutes, 4-5, 10 points, 5 rebounds. He looked more relaxed because he knew he was in for the duration.

    Too bad there’s no G league because that would be perfect for him right now.

  56. I checked a few other mocks and right now Jalen Johnson being available for us is consistent across the board. I don’t know much about him but it seems he really hurt his stock.

  57. re jalen johnson – when there’s a certain narrative about a player they can go into free fall come draft time… that’s what happened with christian wood who everyone thought was a lotto pick and absolutely a unanimous first rounder… hassan whiteside and then there’s christian alexander or deyonta davis…

    in johnson’s case it seems to be a pattern of weirdness about him stemming from hs and now in college… from what we’ve seen and the #s.. he should be a def lotto pick but if there’s gm’s feeding some of these mocks that he’s falling then it’s worth monitoring….

  58. djphan: that’s what happened with christian wood who everyone thought was a lotto pick and absolutely a unanimous first rounder

    Christian Wood actually did have personal problem, didn’t he? I think he was even cut by a Chinese League team.

  59. Jalen Johnson comes at 6th on ESPN (Givony) and Tankathon, at 21st on NBADraft.net and at 22nd on TheAthletic (Vecenie). Still not a lock to fall, i guess.

  60. About the past drafts, it’s bad we all knew at draft day that Knox would be a disaster, and Obi is going the same path, but i still hold hope for him.
    But the ROI on the last drafts is ok-ish, i think, except 2017 (Frank and Dotson), and i’ll explain:
    – 2017, we picked 8th and 44th, on a re-draft* they were 19th and 28th (the first pick dropped a lot – bad draft);
    – 2018, we picked 9th and 36th, on a re-draft* they were 7th and 28th (pretty good, right? being the 36th to climb to 7th is irrelevant for me);
    – 2019, we picked 3rd (and Iggy, but let’s not talk about it), on a re-draft* he was 3rd (the pick was high, he’s still valued high, i think it’s also a good draft);
    – 2020, we picked 8th and 25th, on a re-draft* they were 8th and 14th (not bad! and again the fact that the 25th is the new 8th is irrelevant);

    * – i used Bleacher Report’s re-drafts on all;

  61. Brian Mahoney @briancmahoney:
    Last 2 Minute report determines the traveling call on Randle was correct.
    Says Irving made contact with the ball but did not dislodge it and did not cause Randle to return to the floor with possession. So, Randle must pass or shoot before returning to the floor.

  62. Bayliss: Two young girls. Same ages, same race. Serrated edge knife. Now we never found the weapon in the Adena Watson case. There’s a connection here, Gee. I can feel it.
    Gee: So why are you sitting at your desk?
    Bayliss: Right.
    Gee: Go with your gut, Bayliss. But use your head.

  63. Gee: Can you or can you not handle the Adena Watson case?
    Bayliss: I can handle the case, Gee.
    Gee: Then show me some cajones!
    Bayliss: What are you talking about?
    Gee: Perception, Bayliss. Perception. You act like a wuss they’ll take you for a wuss. Every time you make a step I want to see lightning come out of your butt.
    Bayliss: Look, I can do the job alright. I’m just sick and tired of everyone’s attitude here. An eleven-year-old girl is butchered, I’m expected to find the murderer and I don’t even have a desk!
    Gee: A desk!? Is that all you can think about? {he walks over and sweeps everything off a nearby desk onto the floor}. There’s your desk. Now I want to see lightning.

  64. Homicide: Life on the Streets was a very different kind of cop show…Al “Gee” Giardello was just such an interesting study of “small scale” leadership…very human, flawed with such a great deal of resolve and strength…

  65. The David Simon book that inspired it is pretty great, geo. Reads very quick for 650 pages.

  66. Says Irving made contact with the ball but did not dislodge it and did not cause Randle to return to the floor with possession.

    that ref must have had x-ray vision or something…

  67. The David Simon book that inspired it is pretty great, geo. Reads very quick for 650 pages.

    got it one the shelf jowles :)

    was sitting next to some fredrick forsyth stuff….publishing date of 1993, pages are all yellow and it smells old…yikes, i’m creeping up on 60 – i hope i’m not starting to smell old…

  68. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    The David Simon book that inspired it is pretty great, geo. Reads very quick for 650 pages.

    Yeah, great book,
    David Simon is fantastic (Homicide, The Wire, Treme, Show Me A Hero, The Deuce, just staying on tv shows)…

    P.S.
    Probably I have the same edition Geo, yellow pages and all :-)

  69. Rumors about the Knicks targeting centers might be just the FO looking for a way to cash our assets into win now moves. We have cap space, but very little in what to spend it. There seems to be a surplus of centers with biggish salaries, and there are a few good ones available for nothing else but future assets. This way we liberate Mitch that can be then traded somewhere else. Given that his salary is very low, he is much more tradable than the rest of avaiblable centers and opens up a lot of possibilities. So eating Turner into space and then trading Mitch for Lonzo would make a lot of sense. Not sure how much would this cost in term of future picks, I guess it would take at least a couple for Turner.

    I like Mitch’s defense and I am not sure this is the right course of action, but at least it would make sense.

  70. Probably I have the same edition Geo, yellow pages and all :-)

    i’ll tell ya max, yourself, bo, z-man, and some other folks here are my guide and guideposts for aging…it’s a subject which becomes more relevant to me daily…when you all speak towards making that journey as successful as possible – i’m listening…

    i guess reading actually :)

  71. Turner would make way more sense than Drummond if the Knicks want to use Mitch for another trade. But why is Turner even on the block? Pacers trying to shed salary?

  72. Mike Vorkunov
    @MikeVorkunov
    ·
    23m
    Tom Thibodeau has an update of sorts on Derrick Rose, who is out again due to the NBA’s health & safety protocols.
    “We don’t have a certain date. He’s feeling a lot better…As soon as he can get back on the court we can let everyone know but you just gotta follow the protocol.”

  73. The David Simon book that inspired it is pretty great, geo. Reads very quick for 650 pages.

    Can someone please post the title and author of the book?

  74. Max:
    Mike Vorkunov
    @MikeVorkunov
    ·
    23m
    Tom Thibodeau has an update of sorts on Derrick Rose, who is out again due to the NBA’s health & safety protocols.
    “We don’t have a certain date. He’s feeling a lot better…As soon as he can get back on the court we can let everyone know but you just gotta follow the protocol.”

    It sounds like Rose got sick, not just exposed to someone who tested positive.

  75. Knick fan not in NJ: It sounds like Rose got sick, not just exposed to someone who tested positive.

    Oh man, that’s not good. And maybe he’ll take even more time than being cleared to play to get back in shape.

  76. Thanks Max.

    Cybersoze, You’re right, it’s bad. I hope it’s not true.

  77. Call me an optimist, but I’m betting Frank quadruples his point total from last night.

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