ESPN.com: Sources: Detroit Pistons trade Derrick Rose to New York Knicks in deal that reunites former MVP with Tom Thibodeau

Sorry, i think that this takes precedence over a post-game thread (decent loss against a better than their record Heat team).

From Woj:

The New York Knicks have reached agreement on a trade to acquire Detroit Pistons guard Derrick Rose and reunite him with coach Tom Thibodeau, sources told ESPN on Sunday.

The Knicks are sending guard Dennis Smith Jr. and a 2021 second-round draft pick via the Charlotte Hornets to Detroit, sources said.

The Knicks and Pistons agreed to the deal on Sunday afternoon after periodic talks that stretched over a couple of months, sources said.

Rose rejoins the Knicks, where he spent a turbulent 2016-17 season struggling in the triangle offense during the Phil Jackson regime. Rose was the youngest MVP in league history under Thibodeau with the Chicago Bulls in 2011 and played for him again with Minnesota in the 2017-2018 season.

The Knicks are undergoing a competitive uptick under Thibodeau in his first season as coach, emerging as one of the league’s top defensive teams. The arrival of Rose brings help for the NBA’s 25th-rated offensive team and creates an overlap of veteran guards, including starter Elfrid Payton and Austin Rivers.

Rivers is likely to become a player that contenders seek in trade talks as teams look to fortify backcourts closer to the March 25 trade deadline.

Terrible trade, but hey, could be worse, I guess. It could be the Detroit second.

“It could have been worse.” – 2/3rds of all Knicks trades since Dolan took over (the remaining third USA is 90% “couldn’t be worse than this” and “good trade”).

As always, here’s a poll as part of our all-poll content.

Do you like this trade?

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390 thoughts to “ESPN.com: Sources: Detroit Pistons trade Derrick Rose to New York Knicks in deal that reunites former MVP with Tom Thibodeau”

  1. Made this comment on the game thread but might as well bring it up here too.

    For those complaining about giving up the Charlotte 2nd rd pick, do you really think next season the Knicks are going to carry 4 rookies on the roster? Having 3 picks in the Top 31 or 32 is definitely more than enough, dont think another 2nd rd pick in the 40’s would be more than maybe a euro draft and stash. Now could you get a better player for that pick than Rose is definitely a good question or trading that pick for a future 2nd rd pick would be more understandable too. But at this point there is nobody being drafted in the 40’s who will have 3 other rookies drafted in front of him that will be doing anything other than getting G-League minutes.

  2. Can we vote “no” a billion times without having to make a billion actual clicks?

    It’s not just the trade on the merits, which is bad, but it slams the door shut on any hopes that Thibodeau had somehow grown as a coach and might actually be able to help develop young players. I personally never had much hope on that front, but now it’s completely gone. It’s also bad in that it shows the relative sway Thibs has in the decision making process. He was terrible GM when he gave it a shot before and this is another terrible, borderline obsessive move. Add the 19 minutes for RJ, who’d had a 13-game stretch slashing 50/40/80, and it’s just a bad day in Knicksland. Thibs gonna Thibs.

  3. BigBlueAL:
    Made this comment on the game thread but might as well bring it up here too.

    For those complaining about giving up the Charlotte 2nd rd pick, do you really think next season the Knicks are going to carry 4 rookies on the roster? Having 3 picks in the Top 31 or 32 is definitely more than enough, dont think another 2nd rd pick in the 40’s would be more than maybe a euro draft and stash. Now could you get a better player for that pick than Rose is definitely a good question or trading that pick for a future 2nd rd pick would be more understandable too.But at this point there is nobody being drafted in the 40’s who will have 3 other rookies drafted in front of him that will be doing anything other than getting G-League minutes.

    This is definitely fair.

    I think we all need to be honest here: at least 50% of the negative optics of this trade is because it’s Derrick Rose. If it were another player with the same statistical profile and contract situation, I don’t think we’d frown at this nearly as much.

  4. Totally, I want no part of Rose even though he can possibly help this team out a bit. Also alot of people here are opposed to any type of win now moves so I totally understand why they would hate a move like this. Will be interesting to see if this does indeed lead to a trade of Austin Rivers like has been rumored by Woj today.

  5. vincoug:
    How does Rose improve the offense?He’s putting up 14 points with an eFG+ of 87 and a TS+ of 91.There’s only a few players on the team that’s better than and none of them are Austin Rivers.

    Rose OBPM: 1.2
    Rivers OBPM: -2.1
    Payton OBPM: -2.5

    I’m unsure how much his passing will drop playing with Randle. He’s still a better attacker than Payton.

    It’s always possible we bench Payton instead of Rivers. However, Payton should look better running point with more shooting in the 2nd unit. He’s a better passer and more consistent penetrator/PG than IQ.

    Either way, I expect Rose to improve the offense. Again, Rose’s defense is a big concern. I still don’t like or want Rose.

  6. Making win now moves for players who don’t help the team win now has a long Knick tradition.

  7. 1. I’ve been hard on DSjr because I don’t like his game, but he seemed like a good enough kid. He wasn’t going to play in NY & deserves a chance to save his career. This trade will give him a chance. I’m happy for him.

    2. The intrinsic value of a middle 2nd round pick is minimal. We are only going to carry so many rookies next year anyway. We have 2 first round picks.

    3. If we are being honest, Quickley is more of a combo guard. If we are going to run a PG centric offense (which is not my preference, but seems to be the preference here), Quickley is not our PG of the future. He’ll probably play more SG now where he probably belongs.

    4. Rose is here for 1 year to try to help the team make a playoff run, make us less of a laughing stock around the league, and get the kids some experience in important games. Then he’s out. He’s not going to hurt anything even if he goes AWOL.

    5. Assuming Rose is the backup PG, this frees Thibs to move Quickley to the starting lineup at SG if he wants to take a look at a Payton/Quickley combination and get more scoring in the starting lineup. Rose could then run the 2nd unit at PG and be that scorer off the bench we need if Quickley moves to the starting lineup.

    This is no big deal.

    The trade gives us a little more flexibility in our rotations, helps DSJr, and the pick we gave up is not important enough to have a tantrum over. We aren’t going to find an all star with that pick and that’s the one and only thing we should be focused on long term. We need star players.

  8. Even the corpse of Rose is a much, much better player than Austin Rivers. That doesn’t make the trade any less bad. The only saving grace is that we will never see DSjr don a Knicks uniform ever again. But come on…giving up any kind of an asset for a player in severe decline on an expiring? I don’t get it.

  9. To quote Jack Sparrow as he was getting ready to be marooned on a desert island, “”I really rather hope we were past all this.”

    Stupid trade. Is it awful? No but its stupid, I would rather have the pick back. Rose gives us nothing or value, as a player or an asset and I cant stand watching him play or rooting for him.

  10. Yeah, Bullock is not being removed from the starting lineup so only way IQ starts will be at PG.

  11. The corpse of Rose is shooting .472 at the rim. If that isn’t some kind of fluke, look for a lot of hapless solo drives to the rim by Thibs’s guy, followed up by a lot of loafing back on D and pointing at other guys to pick up his man. And then Thibs telling us Immanuel Quickley needs to practice better and break down defenses better and play better defense and don’t worry nothing’s set in stone.

    And then for the Knicks to sign him for 3/36 this summer, as Thibs is totally not at all signaling he wants to happen.

  12. Reasons to LOVE this trade:

    1. We are a team overflowing with great shooters, but have no one to slash to the basket. Finally, our offense can really open up. RJ and Mitch can breathe sighs of relief.

    2. Elfrid Payton is great, sure, but what we’ve been needing is a much older version of Elfrid.

    3. By taking the ball out of the hands of RJ, Randle, and Quickley, Thibs is giving them more time to work on their hobbies.

    4. Derrick Rose is beloved by the Knick fan base for his previous flawless stint in NY.

    5. Draft picks, shmaft picks.

    An all-around master-stroke by de-facto GM Tommy Thibs.

  13. E, all merc’d out: And then for the Knicks to sign him for 3/36 this summer, as Thibs is totally not at all signaling he wants to happen.

    Yeah, I can’t wait for this offseason to see what we offer him to stay.

  14. BigBlueAL: Will be interesting to see if this does indeed lead to a trade of Austin Rivers like has been rumored by Woj today.

    That alone would make this a good deal. lol

  15. DRose playing well enough to get a three year deal is the real nighmare scenario. He’d be our Melo, someone who is totally cooked but who gets run out there anyway because of his former stature.

    If they re-sign him it will be a total shit show.

  16. If any Frank-ophiles were hoping he’d make a rotation comeback this season, you can kiss those dreams goodbye.

  17. I voted yes, so did 4 other people. were they just doing it to be a dick like I was?

    Seriously…..I don’t get this at all. a 32 year old PG who doesn’t pass and who will get in the way of IQ. Why.

  18. BigBlueAL:
    Will be interesting to see if this does indeed lead to a trade of Austin Rivers like has been rumored by Woj today.

    Well, if Rivers and/or Payton are traded, this will open up time for Quickley once in the inevitable Rose injury happens.

  19. BigBlueAL:
    Yeah, Bullock is not being removed from the starting lineup so only way IQ starts will be at PG.

    Thibs seems to like Bullock. He’s been playing better since I said I was losing patience with him just the other day. If he’s not going to try IQ with Payton in the starting lineup (even though he mentioned it twice as something he would like to take a look at), then he’ll play Quickley at SG with Rose and we’ll trade Rivers.

    I don’t like Rivers. He has a good handle and is aggressive. That allows him to create his own shot easily, but he throws up a lot of trash, is not particularly efficient, and isn’t a plus defender. To me, he’s pointless, but he has enough name recognition and reputation around the league to perhaps get something back in a trade.

  20. I voted yes, so did 4 other people. were they just doing it to be a dick like I was?

    Rationalizing shitty trades is a big part of what we do here at Knickerblogger. We’re not about to kick it to the curb.

  21. TheOakmanCometh:
    If any Frank-ophiles were hoping he’d make a rotation comeback this season, you can kiss those dreams goodbye.

    Totally unrelated.

    Frank is not considered a PG by Thibs. He’s a combo guard. It’s Quickley (deservedly) and Rivers blocking Frank. Those are the combo guards that are mostly going to play SG but can play some PG in some lineups, if there is an injury, or if you don’t even have another playable PG like us. lol Going forward, Rose will play PG, Quickley will play way more minutes at SG, and Rivers will eventually drop out of the rotation or be traded. If Rivers is traded, Frank will be behind Quickley and Bullock. If they also trade Bullock before the deadline (not inconceivable), then Frank would take Bullock’s spot at 3&d off the bench with Quickley starting. Frank needs minutes to see if we can move Bullock.

  22. I’d like to be sure that DRose (AKA “The Grim Raper”) will dent into Payton’s and Rivers’ minutes and not into IQ’s ones.

    But I’m not. I’m absolutely not.

    The trade is bad by default, but if it hurts IQ’s playing time it changes into a disaster…

  23. Anyone who doesn’t think this will effect IQ’s minutes is deluding themselves. Thibs is always looking for reasons to play IQ less. After a string of very good games by IQ all it took was one good game by Payton to relegate IQ to less than 15 minutes in back to back games in which IQ was still playing well. All the while Rivers kept getting his normal minutes even while playing like trash.

    Thibs doesn’t want to play IQ big minutes and this will allow him not to. It’s that simple. IQ might replace Rivers in the rotation short term but I guarantee you that after one or two bad games you will see Rivers back in the lineup.

    Awful. Plus I really hate Rose’s game and being subjected to him with the only respite being Payton is truly horrific.

  24. This trade reminds me of the Ron Baker contract. In micro, it’s not that bad. Rose is arguably at least a minor upgrade over Payton, and while there are much better ways we could have used that Charlotte pick, we were going to trade it for something, for the reasons BigBlueAl cited.

    But in the macro, it sends a bad signal about what Leon Rose values, and about whether he’ll be willing to curb his coach’s worst impulses. The Baker contract was far from crippling, but it told you Steve Mills didn’t know what the bleep he was doing. This isn’t quite as bad, but it’s still depressing.

  25. BigBlueAL:
    For those complaining about giving up the Charlotte 2nd rd pick, do you really think next season the Knicks are going to carry 4 rookies on the roster? Having 3 picks in the Top 31 or 32 is definitely more than enough, dont think another 2nd rd pick in the 40’s would be more than maybe a euro draft and stash.

    In other words, the Knicks gave up absolutely nothing. Remember that Leon basically threw away the Knicks last 2nd round pick this past year. Let’s see how this impacts the rotation.

  26. “The only saving grace is that we will never see DSjr don a Knicks uniform ever again. ”

    Careful, Z-Man. I bet you said the same thing when DRose left in disgrace…

  27. Blegh, real stinker of a trade…has that classic knicks stench with a some new “Thibs-safety-blanket” seasoning tossed in for taste.

    Obviously some people are spouting the “tossing second round picks isn’t a big deal” nonsense, not really sure how to explain to someone that it is always bad asset management to just toss an asset in the garbage essentially, even if it is a small asset.

  28. Yeah, there’s a chance Rose is useful to the offense this year, and/or that the Charlotte pick doesn’t amount to anything. And it’s still a bad trade, because the process and philosophy are so stupid.

  29. Gave up a 2nd round pick for a DRose rent.
    Ok.
    (DSJ was gone by himself…long time ago)

    I’m optimist and expect good results from this trade cause i still trust Thibs.

    If he can turn this shit crew into the best D of the league I’m confident that he can use DRose effectively and upgrade the whole team and its efforts.

    Trading for DRose even for a 2nd and DSJ looks bad on paper right now but i expect Thibs to make it look good on the court.

  30. Brian Cronin: In other words, sure, so long as those other words are incorrect words

    clearly you valued DSJr and the 40th or so pick. I don’t. In my mind, we got something for nothing.

  31. Can’t believe the first ad of the super bowl was an M Night horror film. My son was not ready for that. He was primed for a Doritos ad.

    Update: Mcconaughey as Flat Stanley in a Doritos ad was much better. First Super Bowl!

  32. The Knicks played at a 32 win pace under Miller last year and are at a 36 win pace this year. Probably not even statistically significant, immaterial needle move at most. And Miller was stuck with rookie RJ while Thibs lucked into second year RJ. Not worth the drama.

  33. Raven: Careful, Z-Man. I bet you said the same thing when DRose left in disgrace…

    Check the archives. I dare you. (please don’t!)

  34. Brian Cronin:
    In other words, sure, so long as those other words are incorrect words.

    What’s funny is that we just saw how two such picks can be packaged to move up several spots in the draft. I wonder what the 31+40ish picks could get you to…

  35. Do the people praising the trade even watched Rose when he was on the Knicks? His infuriating drive to the basket with blinders on, throw an awkward layup that has no chance of going in, rinse and repeat? And by the way he’s 4 years older now with knees that are completely gone?

  36. Well, this puts to bed my plan to get my fellow countryman Neemias Queta to be Mitch’s backup with CHA’s 2nd RP. :(

  37. The only way I like this move is if it’s a calculated arbitrage like Ed Davis and we flip DRose at the deadline for a 1st or two 2nds.

    But that’s not going to happen.

  38. Nightly Hickory High alert (NY Post):

    *************************

    “RJ Barrett wasn’t in a scoring mode on Super Bowl Sunday, but when he made a defensive miscue on a pick-and-roll coverage, it was the last straw for Tom Thibodeau.

    Barrett was yanked midway through the third quarter and never returned, finishing with three points, as the Heat escaped with a 109-103 Garden matinee victory.”

    *********************

    Wonder if Berman is channeling Thibs here?:

    “You got to make plays down the stretch,’’ Thibodeau said. “You have to understand the fourth quarter is different. Decision-making is different. Officials allow more to go on in terms of physicality. We have to understand that part of it. ‘’

    Rose can do all that stuff late in games and did that for the Knicks in 2016-17, when he averaged 18 points per game. Barrett has yet to show a strong knack for being a closer. Even in their recent win in Chicago, Barrett missed three straight shots down the stretch.

    *******************************

    So the team propagandist has Derrick Rose as a closer and RJ Barrett not a closer. Good times ahead.

  39. Early Bird: The only way I like this move is if it’s a calculated arbitrage like Ed Davis and we flip DRose at the deadline for a 1st or two 2nds.

    Didn’t thought about that, but you’re right, if they’re banking on upping Rose’s value in 6 weeks to then trade him for more draft capital than we surrendered, then it’d be worth it.

  40. ***a romantic comedy takes two to tango: it was only really phil that was going through changes in the movie…rita was pretty much just along for the ride…***

    If you really need me to, I can list a few dozen romcoms that are all from a single perspective. It’s really not a part of the formula (though Nora Ephron employed a style that involved a dual perspective, Nancy Meyers largely did not).

    More important to the formula:

    The romantic leads do not like each other in the beginning (or can not be together due to underlying conditions) [check]

    The two at-odds love interests are thrust together at the end on act 1 [check]

    One (or both) need the other to succeed [check]

    They realize they have loved each other all along [check]

    Groundhog Day clearly fits this formula, regardless of what the KB eye-test says about it. There are some movies that really are debatable as to whether they are romcoms. Some British attempts like 4 Weddings and a Funeral and Notting Hill can go either way, and then there is a sub genre of Vivica A Fox/Morris Chestnut/Gabrielle Union movies that fit the romcom formula, but have added enough to the formula to have created the sub genre “buppy comedy”. But most movies are either in or they’re out when it comes to formula genres.

    I hope this helps.

  41. cybersoze: Didn’t thought about that, but you’re right, if they’re banking on upping Rose’s value in 6 weeks to then trade him for more draft capital than we surrendered, then it’d be worth it.

    CBA FAQ is down or no longer working so I can’t check but I’m pretty sure we can’t do that. If you trade for a player you have to wait 60 or 90 days or something like that before you can trade him. So Rose is here for at least this season and I’m sure we’ll be looking to re-sign him this summer.

  42. vincoug: CBA FAQ is down or no longer working so I can’t check but I’m pretty sure we can’t do that. If you trade for a player you have to wait 60 or 90 days or something like that before you can trade him. So Rose is here for at least this season and I’m sure we’ll be looking to re-sign him this summer.

    There is zero reason to believe that they acquired Rose with the goal of trading him.

  43. Bruno Almeida:
    Do the people praising the trade even watched Rose when he was on the Knicks? His infuriating drive to the basket with blinders on, throw an awkward layup that has no chance of going in, rinse and repeat? And by the way he’s 4 years older now with knees that are completely gone?

    I think “praise” is too strong a word even for Team Optimism. I, alongside BigBlueAl and a couple others, are just pointing out there are potential benefits to this trade for this season. Yes, the biggest risks is that Thibs uses Rise to cut into IQ (and RJB’s) minutes.

    And now I’m going to say something that you all may find totally blasphemous, even myself: there is a universe where Derrick Rose may actually be a good basketball influence for IQ and RJB. Yes yes I know, he bolted on the team in the past and he’s an accused rapist and he’s not who any of us want. At the sams time, we all know NBA players don’t look at each other the way us fans look at them. Is there a non-zero chance that D-Rose the Playoff Warrior can impart some jewels on the young guns? I think so…maybe.

    There. I said it. I’m on record for it, and I take full responsibility if the absolute worst case scenarios you all have said happen.

  44. Two clever coaches — should be interesting to see what adjustments are made on both sides for the next game.

    a win seems pretty unlikely on tuesday, like z-man said – good chance the heat are in the process of turning around their season…

  45. I’m not happy about this trade at all but I try to look at it from the current front office and coaching staff’s point of view. Unlike others here who live in a fantasy world where in their scenarios they keep the Charlotte 2nd rd pick and somehow use it to collect an All-Star I try to face reality lol. All I hope is it doesn’t affect RJ or especially IQ’s playing time, as long as that doesn’t happen it really is just complaining for the sake of it to continue to whine about this trade as if it is changing the future dynamics of the franchise. We’ll have to wait and see.

  46. Z-man: There is zero reason to believe that they acquired Rose with the goal of trading him.

    Oh, you don’t have to tell me that. I was responding to the guys above who thought this might be setting up a trade to ship Rose out before the deadline.

  47. Blegh, real stinker of a trade…has that classic knicks stench with a some new “Thibs-safety-blanket” seasoning tossed in for taste.

    this right here…this is it…

    there is no question rose will get hot a time or two and maybe even help win us a game, even as he gets burned over and over on defense…boy though – what kind of owner we have to allow an employee who went awol back on the roster…

  48. I’m not happy about this trade at all but I try to look at it from the current front office and coaching staff’s point of view.

    Foolishly?

  49. The point is that facing reality is understanding that the last time Derrick Rose was good was 9 years ago, so we’re trading for a guard who has a .517 ts% at age 32 who’s never been a good passer or defender.

    We’ve acquired a bad basketball player for nothing, to play minutes in a position where he’s not necessary, so what’s the point? The absolute best version of Derrick Rose in the last 9 years, which is probably last season at Detroit, will add at most, being very generous, 2 wins worth of production to a team.

    Living in a fantasy world is believing somehow Derrick Rose will have a positive impact on a team in 2021, despite the fact that he has failed to do so in two straight years for the team that’s willing to trade him for Dennis Smith Jr and this useless 2nd rounder you don’t care about.

  50. That’s not true. Rose the last 2 seasons has been pretty decent, certainly an upgrade on Payton and Rivers.

    The Knicks realize they have a huge problem at PG so they made a minor move to try to upgrade that position this season. That’s it. Looking at it as some franchise altering move that dooms us for the next few years is just not fair. You don’t have to like the move, I certainly don’t, but making it out to be such a disastrous move that it shows this front office is clueless and our future is doomed is also unfair.

  51. Noone likes DRose but like it or not he’s a pg upgrade on the cheap.
    If Thibs is stupid or suicidal then DRose will fuck the team and drag him to the exit.
    We don’t need a stupid coach.
    DRose is Thibs’ 1st bet so far.
    A cheap one.

  52. It also shows that the front office has no idea how to build a team, as usual. If you’re going to give up assets for a below average expiring veteran, at least get someone who addresses our weaknesses. We need shooting. Rose is a horrible shooter.

    What is the point here?

  53. To be fair, in the 2018-19 season, Rose was being considered for 6th man of the year and comeback player of the year. That version of Rose is most certainly worth a 2nd round pick. So in that sense, BBA and GNYGNYG have a point.

    But even if he becomes that player, I personally don’t like what the move represents in terms of priorities and direction. Sure, it’s not a big deal in the big scheme of things, but like Alan said with his reference to the Ron Baker (sob!) deal, it speaks to a mindset. In this case, the mindset should be reserved for a playoff team, not an overachieving bottom-10 team that is early into a rebuild. It is also a terrible PR move for a team looking to escape its clown-show past.

  54. Who can they possibly get that is a huge upgrade for DS Jr and a 2nd rd pick most likely in the 40’s though?

  55. If DRose was just another player with DRose stats, you can still argue that it was a horrible trade. it’s moves no known needle — he’s really no better than Payton, just different. And much worse in some ways, such as defense, which is largely what’s been winning us games. If he’s coming in to only take all of Rivers’ minutes maybe okay, but I can’t see Rivers not getting some playing time, so that means Quick gets less. Or possibly Burks/Bullock, but both are better than Rose, and both have a skill we need desperately (shooting).

    It feels like the collection of pointless power forwards from last year. Now we have a collection of pointless point guards. We’ve cornered the market. Hurrah.

    But then you add on losing an (minor but still an) asset. AND then you have it be a guy who is old and has been cratering. And with none of the two skills we need, especially at that position (shooting and passing). And THEN the unbelievably bad optics of a guy with an ugly history off the field and WALKING OUT on this very team just a couple of years ago.

    It’s mindboggling.

  56. Voted with the majority and went with a big ‘No’ on the trade. Any deficiency we are trying to cover at the PG spot can be addressed by simply playing Quickley (and Frank).

    That being said, the deal itself isn’t “bad” per se from a value perspective, but it just feels like a sideways step for us. Maybe Rose plays to his 18/19 form and solidifies our position as a low seed playoff team? Great, but we were already potentially that team without him so *shrugs indifferently*

  57. Honestly for me this really is just a *shrugs* trade. I’m like whatever, wish they hadn’t done it but I’m not gonna lose my shit over it. Yankees pitchers and catchers report in less than 2 weeks so I have that to look forward to at least.

  58. After a lot of thinking, i’ve come up with two theories for the DRose trade:
    1 – Leon noticed the double 50pt games of Steph and Jokic, and immediately ordered Perry to get the cheapest player with a career 50 pt game;
    (i like this one)
    2 – Leon is planning to hire his son for a job in the Knicks front-office and for that hire to go under the radar he’s plotting to hire 4 or 5 players or executives named Rose;
    (oh, this one is even better! LOL)

  59. vincoug: Oh, you don’t have to tell me that. I was responding to the guys above who thought this might be setting up a trade to ship Rose out before the deadline.

    And i was just trying to see a glimmer of hope… :P

  60. Can you trade a player you just traded for?
    If teams acquire a player in a trade, they are allowed to trade that player straight-up for another individual player immediately. However, if teams wish to package that player with another and make a trade, they must wait 60 days before doing so. … They can be traded immediately, just not to their previous team.

    And bam! Here it is, the glimmer of hope. We can trade him, if it’s a swap DRose for a player we want (or a player we don’t want and draft picks).

  61. If Rose plays like he did last year let alone 18/19 he’s a huge upgrade- he put up solid starter numbers playing 26 minutes a night. I still wouldn’t have done the trade for a ton of reasons but if he hasn’t just completely run into the wall it isn’t a bad trade and has a chance to be a pretty good one if your goal is just winning games this year. That’s pretty fathomable to me even though I don’t like it.

  62. Beyond the trade itself is how Rose is used. You could argue that his dribble-penetration as a backup might help Obi and IQ, and maybe Noel has more garbage to clean up. Last year he took 30% of his shots at the rim and shot 65% from there. Same in 2018-19.

    I noticed in the last couple of games that IQ is getting lots of defensive pressure and is leaving his feet and throwing desperation lob passes. Teams seem to be on to him a bit, so I would expect some regression until he figures that out. Rose might help with that. In any case, after the initial gag-reflex stuff, I’m interested to see how Thins uses him.

  63. cybersoze: And bam! Here it is, the glimmer of hope. We can trade him, if it’s a swap DRose for a player we want (or a player we don’t want and draft picks).

    That’s good to know but I doubt we trade him. However, the impact of this signing on pre-trade deadline moves will be interesting to monitor. Clearly there are more moves coming.

  64. Derrick Rose sucks and is miserable to watch. I’m completely serious when I say this makes me much less excited to watch this team going forward.

    I am not claiming the Hornets’ pick was some great asset, I mean it projects to be right around where Mitch was picked, but whatever.

    Let’s say it had a 5% chance of getting us a good player. Derrick Rose gives us a 0% chance at getting a good player! I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about this. It’s an unambiguously shitty trade even if it, in isolation, doesn’t have dire implications.

  65. thenoblefacehumper: Derrick Rose sucks and is miserable to watch. I’m completely serious when I say this makes me much less excited to watch this team going forward.

    Is he any more miserable to watch than Rivers or Payton?

  66. ‘Rookie Tyrese Haliburton hit back-to-back 3-pointers that put the Kings ahead by five early in the fourth.’

    I’d rather have Rose…

  67. ‘Is he any more miserable to watch than Rivers or Payton?’

    Yes. Yes he is.

    Rivers and Payton are nice guys who just happen to be fairly incompetent at parts of their jobs. DRose is also somewhat incompetent at parts of his job, but he is also deeply creepy; Plus his very existence on the roster makes it feel like we’re going backward, not forward.

  68. Raven: Yes. Yes he is.

    Rivers and Payton are nice guys who just happen to be fairly incompetent at parts of their jobs. DRose is also somewhat incompetent at parts of his job, but he is also deeply creepy; Plus his very existence on the roster makes it feel like we’re going backward, not forward.

    I dunno, it sounds kinda hollow when someone rooting for a team owned by the creepiest mfer in sports complains about one of the players being “deeply creepy.”

  69. Well okay, there’s that. It probably helps that we’ve had two decades to get accustomed to it. I suppose if Derrick Rose were our point guard for the next 20 years I’d…

    …well not kill myself. But certainly willfully choose another sport.

    It also helps that we don’t have Dolan on the court every game, so he’s slightly easier to ignore, at least lately. But I still think there’s no reason to populate the roster with mini-Dolans.

  70. wow, likr 60 years old or so…that dude just ain’t natural, to not only take the tampa bay buccaneers to the super bowl, but to to win it…

    that’s like what – his 18th or so super bowl championship…it’s beyond bizarre behavior…

  71. As I said on the previous thread..I will (or won’t) like this trade once we see what happens next. If we move on from Payton an Rivers so Quickley and Ntilikina can play more- then this is a great trade. I’d prefer to bring Rose in with the 2nd unit with Quickley starting. But..if they do something stupid like hold on to Payton and give he and Rose the lion’s share of the minutes at the point- this is an incredibly stupid trade. God I hope there’s an announcement regarding Payton tomorrow

  72. Don’t get me wrong, people are free to feel however they want to about the players who wear the laundry of their favorite team for whatever reason makes sense to them. I’m not big on such judgements myself. I liked Damyean Dotson but totally get why some here hated having him on the team. Derrick is not very rootable, for both on-court and off-court reasons. But for purely aesthetic reasons, in 2018-2019 mode, he’s not harder on the eyes than Payton or Rivers.

  73. I remember a couple of years ago when Rose was making our lives miserable, and I was desperately hoping that his empty scoring numbers might convince some sucker to take him off our hands. I started ticking off every GM in the league, and ended up coming to the conclusion that our only hope was that Thibs would have a nostalgic connection to him.

    Now Thibs is our sucker.

  74. we should have seen the total disrespect for roster spots coming when they punted on a 2nd rd pick in favor of austin rivers basically… and now another for rose…

    I don’t know about you guys but I’m pretty sure our other picks are in imminent danger also… maybe not before his deadline but I’m not feeling like we are too keen on keeping them either…

  75. Is he any more miserable to watch than Rivers or Payton?

    By a lot.

    USG%:

    Rose: 29.4%
    Payton: 22.7%
    Rivers: 16.3%

    He’s significantly more of a bad experience.

    God bless everyone who thinks you can add a 30% USG guard and not see Quickley and Barrett get marginalized, I envy you.

  76. There are people here who seem to take it personal when the Knicks make a move they hate as if the Knicks are doing it on purpose just to piss them off. Look at it this way, if Rose sucks and makes the Knicks lose then hey its good for the tank! Isnt that what almost everybody here wants anyway?

  77. I noticed in the last couple of games that IQ is getting lots of defensive pressure and is leaving his feet and throwing desperation lob passes. Teams seem to be on to him a bit, so I would expect some regression until he figures that out. Rose might help with that. In any case, after the initial gag-reflex stuff, I’m interested to see how Thins uses him.

    It’s obviously a game of adjustments and now is when we see if Quickley can adjust to them adjusting to him. I’d bet on him, but we shall see.

  78. thenoblefacehumper: By a lot.

    USG%:

    Rose: 29.4%
    Payton: 22.7%
    Rivers: 16.3%

    He’s significantly more of a bad experience.

    God bless everyone who thinks you can add a 30% USG guard and not see Quickley and Barrett get marginalized, I envy you.

    Umm, have you seen the Piston guards? None of them are as good as good as Quickley and Barrett.

    I don’t think his USG is etched in stone.

  79. We are going to hate watching Derrick Rose. Maybe it doesn’t make a difference but it still sucks.

  80. Look, there’s no way I could ever talk myself into trading for Rose being a good idea, just as there was no way to conclude that it was a good idea to draft Obi over Hali. But I’m not any less enthusiastic about watching the team, not yet anyway. And I don’t want to speculate on whether it has any bearing on future transactions per se. As I said yesterday, nobody on this current team is untouchable, or deserves to be. It’s all about winning transactions. This was a pretty minor transaction as they go, and a 2nd round pick is about what an average-ish NBA PG goes for…and we were all pretty much in agreement that DSjr was a negative asset at his salary. It’s really more about what the trade suggests about the future than the transaction itself.

  81. Can’t wait for DRose’s debut! lol
    At least there’ll be a change in the rotation after ages!

  82. Owen:
    We are going to hate watching Derrick Rose. Maybe it doesn’t make a difference but it still sucks.

    But have you been reading the last six weeks of game threads? It’s not like anyone here is loving watching Payton, or Rivers, or Bullock (until today.) And folks are still lukewarm on Randle as a point forward. We have an ugly-ass offense, and Rose is just a different flavor of ugly-ass-ness.

  83. I don’t think his USG is etched in stone.

    We talking about the same guy? This is Derrick Rose. His career USG% is pretty much the same. The dude calls his own number, that’s his thing.

    We’re regularly going to watch games in which the FGA leader is a 32 year old with a .517 TS%. The season was fun while it lasted!

  84. Rose has been frightfully bad shooting from 0-3 feet this year, so bad that you wonder if it’s some sort of statistical anomaly. He’s shooting .472 from 0-3 feet. Owwwch. In his last two seasons he was well north of .600 so either it’s a small sample size anomaly or dude has really forgotten how to score near the basket. That is a pitiful number.

    Elfrid Payton, by comparison, is shooting .559 from 0-3 feet.

  85. maybe he’ll fail his physical….

    they had to justify this internally as increasing the win probability…seems like he will help eek out like 2 or 3 more than whomever he is going to take minutes from (hopefully just rivers)….which doesn’t seem like that would be enough to rationalize it…but at the end of the day if this is just rose minutes = rivers miinutes (I don’t see thibs ending his supposed man crush on payton) it could be immaterial/irrelevant…

    I don’t feel like leon rose would cave if he didn’t like it (have no evidence to support it other than as most have pointed out…he hasn’t done any really stupid shit yet)…so it is not comforting that both the gm and coach signed off on this…

  86. Before Sunday’s game, Thibodeau was asked about his reputation of not wanting to play young players, and he invoked Rose’s name.

    “I think you just look at the guys and study who was on each team — Derrick Rose is the youngest MVP in the history of the league,’’ Thibodeau said. “So I don’t worry about that stuff.”

    I do…

  87. JK47:
    Rose has been frightfully bad shooting from 0-3 feet this year, so bad that you wonder if it’s some sort of statistical anomaly. He’s shooting .472 from 0-3 feet. Owwwch. In his last two seasons he was well north of .600 so either it’s a small sample size anomaly or dude has really forgotten how to score near the basket. That is a pitiful number.

    Elfrid Payton, by comparison, is shooting .559 from 0-3 feet.

    My guess is that it’s a function of his situation more than a falling off a cliff but who knows? If you want a silver lining, if his numbers were better the price would have been higher.

  88. pepper:
    Before Sunday’s game, Thibodeau was asked about his reputation of not wanting to play young players, and he invoked Rose’s name.

    “I think you just look at the guys and study who was on each team — Derrick Rose is the youngest MVP in the history of the league,’’ Thibodeau said. “So I don’t worry about that stuff.”

    I do…

    It seems to be more about playing guys who suck, which young guys tend to do. Of course he played the shit out of Wiggins, who sucked big time.

    There’s just so many layers to him!

  89. Z-man: It seems to be more about playing guys who suck, which young guys tend to do. Of course he played the shit out of Wiggins, who sucked big time.

    There’s just so many layers to him!

    from the looks of it both literally and figuratively…

  90. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    How much does he get re-signed for in the offseason? Three years, $50M?

    “Thibodeau likely won’t start Rose, but he may close with him.” says Berman..

    so likely the AAV in the next deal will be formulaic as proposed by Steve Stoutte brandmaster and resident capologist as (# of times used as “closer” x $1 million) raised to the nth power where n= games that they win when he is in closer role….

  91. JK47:
    Rose has been frightfully bad shooting from 0-3 feet this year, so bad that you wonder if it’s some sort of statistical anomaly. He’s shooting .472 from 0-3 feet. Owwwch. In his last two seasons he was well north of .600 so either it’s a small sample size anomaly or dude has really forgotten how to score near the basket. That is a pitiful number.

    Elfrid Payton, by comparison, is shooting .559 from 0-3 feet.

    And he’s still shooting better than Kemba Walker, who people tried so hard to convince themselves was better than Kyrie.

  92. Thibs: To know Rose is to love Rose.
    Kbloggers: To know Rose is to hate Rose.

    They don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

  93. Bruno Almeida: And he’s still shooting better than Kemba Walker, who people tried so hard to convince themselves was better than Kyrie.

    lol I was just talking with a fellow C’s hater about Kemba being an albatross. He’s a lot more likable than Rose, but man that contract is starting to smell like Thanksgiving leftovers in the back of the basement fridge.

  94. I’m sad we traded away the second round pick but honestly Leon got three 2nds in the Ed Davis maneuver so I will give him a pass on trading away a 2nd.

    The problem isn’t the price we paid it’s that we want Rose at all. He isn’t a very good player and will steal minutes away from one of this seasons bright spots. Now with Rose ahead of IQ he will start getting the Toppin treatment and play for 10 minutes a game and never see a play ran for him at all.

    Plus Rose is on the Mount Rushmore of Knicks I’ve hated watching. I was so relieved when we didn’t resign him and now he’s back. It’s going to be much less enjoyable to watch the Knicks for the rest of the year. Absolute disaster.

  95. Z-man: lol I was just talking with a fellow C’s hater about Kemba being an albatross. He’s a lot more likable than Rose, but man that contract is starting to smell like Thanksgiving leftovers in the back of the basement fridge.

    I wasn’t paying much attention because I watch so few Celtics games, but I was truly shocked when I saw the stats and the sub .500 ts%.

    He played better today so he might be derusting a bit, but he really can’t seem to do anything but shoot jumpers anymore, he seems to get his shot blocked so often. Really not encouraging for a 30 year scoring first guard who’s undersized to begin with.

  96. Meanwhile, Terry Rozier is actually playing really well in an off-ball roll in Charlotte…

  97. Walker’s 3p% should bounce back to the 36% range (and likely higher), which will substantially improve his overall efficiency.

    That said, he got to the basket at the lowest rate of his career last year, and in the small sample of games this year he’s been even worse.

    Kemba shoots well enough to stick around for a few more years, but at 6’0″ he has a fast approaching expiration date. His height may also affect his ability to get separation for 3s and shut the window even faster.

  98. charlotte is spending about 30 million more this year on their roster salary than us…

    we’re dead last in roster salary in the nba, and that’s with noah still on the books for a couple more years at 6.4 million…

    charlotte really looks like an up and coming team this year…they have 11 wins, we have 11 wins…

    I’m not wasting any more thought or energy on the rose acquisition…the knicks’ organization has been a monstor swamp for a good long while…

  99. Z-man: You sure you checked the right boxscore? He was 4-20 for 14 points today with 2 asts and 3 TOs.

    Oh wow I was checking the Clippers game results. 4-20 including 0-9 from 2 point range, yikes.

  100. Since I can’t imagine us picking up DSJ’s salary after this season, trading him was actually a nice thing for him and not a loss for the Knick’s. So I feel basically we traded a mid second round pick for Rose. I don’t care that he’s an alleged rapist either. He actually went to court and won in a civil trial where the standard was preponderance evidence, so there were jurors who actually heard the facts and believed him. But I do find it hard to believe he’s going to help the Knicks at all. I’m wondering why the Knicks analytical brain trust thinks he will. I do agree with the observation that other teams have adjusted to Quickly, but the second unit still had a better plus minus than the starters against Miami, and that was with having to play Taj instead of Noel. So, on balance, I just don’t understand why we did the trade, unless it was a favor to DSJ.

  101. charlotte really looks like an up and coming team this year…they have 11 wins, we have 11 wins…

    That’s one of the interesting things about this trade. No one would want the Knicks to trade their second round pick (if they had it still) for Rose, right? But somehow Charlotte, who has the same amount of wins as the Knicks, is inherently going to be in the 40s?

  102. Brian, that’s a good point. And the consequence is if Rose actually makes us better, we might have traded away the better of the two picks. And if he doesn’t make us better, then why do the deal?

  103. Now we have to get ready for the Noel and a 1st RP for Drummond or young player (Frank? Knox?) and a 2nd RP for JJ Redick. Or even worst, for both. Let’s be ready for the Rose+JJ+RJ+Julius+Drummond starting lineup, that will lead us to the 8th spot… is this worth it, since we were already on pace to be in the play-in (so it’s a 2 spot jump)?

  104. Knick fan not in NJ: I don’t care that he’s an alleged rapist either. He actually went to court and won in a civil trial where the standard was preponderance evidence, so there were jurors who actually heard the facts and believed him.

    There were also jurors who asked him for autographs and pictures with him after the trial so maybe we shouldn’t use that trial as if it were a fair one.

  105. cybersoze:
    Now we have to get ready for the Noel and a 1st RP for Drummond or young player (Frank? Knox?) and a 2nd RP for JJ Redick. Or even worst, for both. Let’s be ready for the Rose+JJ+RJ+Julius+Drummond starting lineup, that will lead us to the 8th spot… is this worth it, since we were already on pace to be in the play-in (so it’s a 2 spot jump)?

    Ugh, I just threw up a little, thanks.

  106. Put me down as very slightly in favor of this trade if and only if this doesn’t mean Quickley is relegated to 3rd -4th guard off the bench (he’s been 2nd or 3rd behind Burks/Rivers).

    The trade makes reasonable sense if the purpose of it is to put Quickley in the starting lineup and Payton somewhere in Eastern Europe. The cost was not much (honestly, I’m sort of surprised the Pistons didn’t hold out for just the 2nd round pick and no Dennis Smith, since Smith is definitely a negative asset on his contract – it’s not like his rights are going to be worth anything). The #40ish pick is not nothing, and one could’ve hoped that they would be able to swing that into a 2nd rounder in a later draft, but you never know whether those things will be available.

    My sense as to why Quickley wasn’t playing more minutes with the starters is that the 2nd unit really needed him — who else is going to run that unit and be able to have a plausible offensive output? If you want to see Payton crater the offense on a unit, wait until you see him running primary ball handler with Obi Toppin, Nerlens Noel, and Alec Burks. Now that Rose can/should be the primary scorer on the 2nd unit, Quickley can play with the starters.

    Re Rose – hard to know what to make of 340 minutes played this year. It is worth noting that he really had a tremendous year last year, literally every bit as good statistically as peak Derrick Rose.

    2011 Rose (MVP year) – per 36 – 24.1 points, 7.4 assists, 3.9 rebounds, 33.2 3P%, 85.8% FT, 38.7 Ast%, 13.1 TO%, 55 TS, 32.2 Usage

    2020 Rose – per 36 – 25.1 points, 7.7 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 30.6% 3P%, 87.1% FT, 40.5 Ast%, 13.4 TO%, 55.5 TS, 31.6 usage

    Those are basically the same numbers with the caveat that the majority of his minutes last year came playing as a backup.

    As always, we’ll have to see what the Big Plan is. But I’ll say this much – it is fun to watch the Knicks play and to actually hope they win. Has been a while.

  107. one other thing – I’ve been pretty out on Obi Toppin, but he has shown a couple flashes in the last few games. I’ll be surprised if he ever becomes a plus 3 point shooter (some of his misses are by feet, not inches) but he is moving around well without the ball (if you focus on him during offensive possessions, it seems like he’d score a lot more if the guards could ever find him on his cuts), and he’s shown more burst going to the basket.

    Not sure if these things are quantified somewhere, but it’d be interesting to see whether stats on “average error on missed shots” (ie. average miss = 8 inches off from center of basket) exist, and how well correlated that is with ability to be a good shooter eventually. You’d have to control for shot difficulty (off movement, how contested, etc) of course. Obi shoots most of his shots with no one near him, and some of them are so bad.

  108. 1. I can’t get over the fact that Derrick Rose is now the centerpiece of the Porzingis trade.

    2. I wonder if Noah is on the phone with Thibs yet? That would be like a Crosby, Stills, and Nash reunion. Then Melo could come back next year and it would be like Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.

  109. Kemba is not the same player he was before the knee issues. It’s not even close. The question is whether that’s permanent. They may still be better of with 2/3rds of Kemba than 100% of Kyrie. lol

  110. People are making way too much of this Derrick Rose move and what it means for the decision making short and long term. I guess it’s a kind of mental illness that comes with being a Knicks fan for a long time and expecting the worst and/or having the tanking mental illness and thinking you should almost always try to maximum some distant theoretical future instead of actually trying to get better once you have a few good young pieces.

    I hated when Dolan went with Leon Rose because IMO you need executives that understand the nuances of basketball to build a team properly. That’s not Leon Rose’s expertise. But honestly, I’d be hard pressed to come up with a move I don’t like so far. It looks like he has a pretty good management team (I’ve even stopped whining about Perry still being there) and now we have a great coaching staff. The closest thing to a complaint I can up with is taking Obi over Hali, but I think I understand the thinking there too. They wanted a true PG or stretch PF. They see Hali as another very talented combo guard, So they went with Obi in the draft and are still on the prowl for the PG of the future. It may or may not turn out to be a mistake. But if you don’t think Hali fits into what you are building, it’s understandable that they went in another direction.

    That is why Derrick Rose is back also. I’m sure they love Quickley, but he’s not a true PG. He’s a combo guard. I think Ball may still be on the radar.

    Anyway, the point I’m making is this Rose trade is no big deal and probably means nothing about the direction they are taking other than wanting to upgrade the PG position with someone that can actually play PG.

  111. All I can say is, if we are actually better with Rose (I have my doubts), then we have a good chance of actually making the playoffs this year given that we’re close to that without him, and it’s probably worth a mid second round pick to have the fun of a full playoff series.

  112. I have no problem with the Knicks looking to upgrade at guard, but 32 year old, high usage Derrick Rose makes zero sense. And if it was Thibs pushing hard on management to do this, that’s concerning as well.

    Also, if this results in IQ’s minutes being cut, well, then I’ll really start to lose hope in this franchise.

  113. Putting aside the fact that maximizing 2020-2021 wins isn’t a good strategy, part of the inevitable rationalization going on is that people are just stating without evidence that Derrick Rose helps pursue that strategy.

    I am aware that he was much better last year, but precipitous declines, especially at the rim, from 32 year old guards really shouldn’t be written off as small sample size theater.

    Rose’s 3PT% is worse than our team 3PT%. His TS% is worse than our team TS%. Unless he’s a better defender now than I remember him being at age 28, he’ll be a net negative in that regard no matter whose minutes he’s replacing.

    We can all pretend he will strictly be taking shots that were otherwise going to Payton, even though that involves doing math that quite simply does not add up from a usage perspective and ignores the fact that Payton is still in fact on the team.

    Newsflash: Derrick Rose’s USG% for the past few years would be the highest on the current Knicks. He will be taking shots from Quickley, Barrett, and Randle unless the next rationalization is that he’s going to have some pass-first oriented epiphany at age 32.

    Let’s say he rebounds a bit and makes the team marginally better. Even if you’re in the “chase the 10th seed crowd,” is it really worth it if that comes at the expense of watching Quickley and Barrett develop? Because anyone saying confidently that there’s not some mutual exclusivity between playing Derrick Rose and those guys getting touches is choosing to ignore who Derrick Rose is despite the fact that we’ve literally seen this play before.

  114. I tend to agree with Deefense here about people overreacting with their Knicks PTSD. A few thoughts.

    We aren’t “chasing the 10th seed.” We’re in the 6 to 8 range for most of the season and that’s with one of the toughest schedules so far and more road games than home games. People need to accept that we are probably a playoff team. Its ok cause we got the Dallas pick and that could end up in the top 8. Before the season started, most people thought we would miss the playoffs and they would make the playoffs, so its a little greedy to expect us to come away with two top ten picks now that the season has started. Having one top 8 and one top 20 pick is a great situation for us.

    Second, we don’t really know what the context of this trade is. Sure, it could mean less time/shots for RJ and Quickley or it could mean less time/shots for Elf and Rivers. Thibs has the rep for playing vets but he also has the rep for playing his best players. RJ and Quickley are 2 of his best players. For all we know, an Elf or Rivers trade could be in the works too.

    In short, making a playoff push isn’t some horrible decision for a franchise that has sucked for the last 20 years. Already the narrative around The Knicks has changed considerably. If Rose can provide some scoring (which he will) and we continue to play RJ, Quickley and Mitch good minutes, then I’m totally fine with this. The second round pick would be nice, but again, its not like we can’t somehow grab another one through an upcoming trade. People just assume if we make the playoffs we’re getting swept in the first round but that’s a false assumption. Maybe we’re clicking, we pull off an upset and suddenly we’re a second round playoff team that has multiple picks, young players and a good cap situation going forward. that’s how you change the narrative of a team.

  115. I kind of think it’s worth reviewing what went down with Thibs and Rose in Minnesota. After his disastrous Knicks season Rose joined the Cavs for just above the minimum and was, predictably, terrible. He struggled with injuries, took another weird mid-season sabbatical where he was rumored to be contemplating retirement and was mostly falling out of the rotation before they used him as salary filler at the deadline in that Jae Crowder/Rodney Hood/George Hill trade (side note: that was a really weird Cavs season and Lebron getting that team to the finals anyway is very impressive). Rose was immediately cut by Utah. He maybe wasn’t quite on his way out of the league but it was touch-and-go. Thibs picked him up despite it not being an obvious need – they had Teague and Butler as the starting backcourt, Jamal Crawford in a high volume role off the bench, and a very solid young backup PG: Tyus Jones in his 21 year old season put up 10/6 per 36 on 57% TS, good for a +0.8 BPM and 14.1 PER in 18 minutes a game.

    Rose joined quite late in the season and was still dealing with some injury issues, he only played 9 games and 112 total minutes for them in the regular season but was, again predictably, bad. Then, all of the sudden, and for no apparent reason whatsoever, he had a huge role for them in the playoffs. In the 5 games he played 119 minutes (more than his regular season total for the team), was 4th in the team in FGA and 1st in USG%. Tyus Jones got his first DNP of the season in Game 4. Rose shot the ball well in the series but his overall effectiveness was meh. He of course, re-signed there and was averaging more than 30 minutes a game the following season when Thibs was fired.

    I’m not saying any of that is definitive, but I think it’s pretty reasonable to be concerned that things are about to get very Derrick Rose-y around here.

  116. While I don’t think this is a “damning” move per se, I do think it shows that this regime — for better or for worse — is primarily focused on showing free agents that winning is important (not tanking) with the goal being “get stars to the Garden.”

    As such, the Knicks are both going to save cap space and collect assets so that they can sign/trade for a star. Until then, peripheral players are fairly meaningless to them.

    I know that no star is saying they want to play with Derrick Rose, but the team is clearly are prioritizing making the playoffs as much as possible, I suppose to become a desirable free agent destination. Idk if this is a good or bad plan, it just that it seems like what they’re doing.

  117. As I said, I have my doubts that Rose will make us better. I worry about all the stuff TNFH mentioned. Helping us get better is the big if of the trade. To assume he makes us better, you have to assume some synergy with him and the rest of the team that isn’t there with the current line up, or you have to assume he has “gravity” that helps free up other players because teams have to guard him more than they have to guard Payton. But teams are now double teaming Quickley. Is he really going to have more “gravity” than that?

  118. Thibs has a strange, bizarre, virtually cult-like obsession with Derrick Rose. It’s really unbecoming and adds to the general creepiness around the whole thing to which TNFH and others have already alluded.

  119. People are making way too much of this Derrick Rose move and what it means for the decision making short and long term. I guess it’s a kind of mental illness that comes with being a Knicks fan for a long time and expecting the worst and/or having the tanking mental illness and thinking you should almost always try to maximum some distant theoretical future instead of actually trying to get better once you have a few good young pieces

    Your daily gaslighting from the board’s smartest, most sage-like poster. Copypasta until everyone gets diabetes of the brain.

    This trade won’t be anything but a footnote.

  120. If you’re the kind of fan who is tickled by a possible playoff appearance, you must be thrilled that Thibs and Leon are making that happen a) without a single signing with a team commitment beyond one year and b) playing RJ, Mitch, IQ and Obi rotation minutes. Rose doesn’t change any of that.

    If you hate the fact that Thibs is coaching to win on its face, you probably should have been out on this regime the minute that Thibs was hired. Rose doesn’t change any of that either.

  121. Re Rose – hard to know what to make of 340 minutes played this year. It is worth noting that he really had a tremendous year last year, literally every bit as good statistically as peak Derrick Rose.

    2011 Rose (MVP year) – per 36 – 24.1 points, 7.4 assists, 3.9 rebounds, 33.2 3P%, 85.8% FT, 38.7 Ast%, 13.1 TO%, 55 TS, 32.2 Usage

    2020 Rose – per 36 – 25.1 points, 7.7 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 30.6% 3P%, 87.1% FT, 40.5 Ast%, 13.4 TO%, 55.5 TS, 31.6 usage

    Those are basically the same numbers with the caveat that the majority of his minutes last year came playing as a backup.

    Do I have to explain the problem with your line of reasoning, here?

  122. I really don’t need to be told for the one millionth time that this isn’t a disastrous trade that will ruin the Knicks’ future on its own. No one is saying that and you’re not clever for pointing it out.

    I am mad about the trade because:

    1) Derrick Rose fucking sucks to watch play basketball

    2) It doesn’t bode well for the front office when the more consequential decisions have to be made

    3) I am not indulging in the fantasy that you can add 30% USG players to the roster and somehow have that not effect Quickley and Barrett

    4) Minor assets are still assets and 32 year old Derrick Rose is not an asset

    5) I do not trust Thibs to deploy Rose in a satisfying manner

  123. The Athletic did a roundtable with Seth Partnow (analytics guy), Danny Leroux (cap guy), and Sam Vecenie (draft guy) about the trade, and they are mostly positive about it for the Knicks, while also thinking the Pistons should have gotten more for Rose. Two notable passages:

    Is this enough of a haul for Rose?

    Leroux: No, it is not. If the Pistons were able to both pick up a decent second and create a usable trade exception, I would be much more on board. By taking on Smith, the Pistons only get one of the two, and not for a particularly good reason. The other missed opportunity here from Weaver’s perspective is not negotiating for the better of the Hornets’ and Pistons’ 2021 seconds since the Knicks have the rights to both. Our best guess is that the picks will be fairly close in the end, but that was low-hanging fruit, especially with them taking on Smith too.

    and

    What does this deal say about the Leon Rose regime in New York?

    Partnow: This is the second in-season Knicks move that is defensible in its own right but raises questions about process and influence on decisions. Taj Gibson was plausibly the best available fill-in big when he was signed a month ago. He was also a firm favorite of Thibs in two different stops. If Rose can duplicate anything like what he has done in the two previous seasons, this wasn’t a big price to pay, but he’s also a former favorite of Thibs in two different stops. If one were going to be an optimist, one would note Gibson has barely played since being signed, so to the extent Obi Toppin isn’t getting minutes, it’s not that he’s lost out to Gibson. The Knicks can only hope the same applies to Quickley.

  124. The only issue with the Derrick Rose trade I have is that Elfrid Payton is still here. Derrick Rose, for all of his flaws, is still an NBA player and he should immediately replace EP in the starting lineup. Dennis Smith Jr was worthless to us, but the Charlotte 2RP could have been added onto another so I can see why trading that pick in this deal was a bad idea. Ultimately, I think this trade improved the Knicks roster and I don’t begrudge them for the trade. However, if they keep Payton in the rotation and IQ is battling with Bullock, Rivers, Payton, and Rose for minutes at the guard spot we can just throw away the entire front office and start over.

  125. If you’re the kind of fan who is tickled by a possible playoff appearance, you must be thrilled that Thibs and Leon are making that happen a) without a single signing with a team commitment beyond one year and b) playing RJ, Mitch, IQ and Obi rotation minutes. Rose doesn’t change any of that.

    If you hate the fact that Thibs is coaching to win on its face, you probably should have been out on this regime the minute that Thibs was hired. Rose doesn’t change any of that either.

    I’m more or less agnostic about trying to make the playoffs. If it were up to me asset maximization would be the name of the game, but like you said nothing wildly irresponsible has been done in pursuit of the playoffs so I don’t feel terribly strongly. Maybe there is some benefit that would come with it that outweighs the benefits of giving out more roster spots to flyers, playing Toppin/Quickley more, etc. I won’t claim I know definitively.

    The problem is I disagree with you that Rose doesn’t change anything. The nature of his game means that if we do make it, it will necessarily have less to do with Quickley and Barrett than it otherwise would. He is a 32 year old inefficient chucker who, again, is now the highest usage player on the team. I think anyone who doesn’t think he’s going to make his mark on this team is deluding themselves. That’s simply the way he plays, and that’s the way our coach has always played him.

  126. Tidbit from Macri’s newsletter that is not at all surprising but will ruffle some feathers:

    Lastly, I’m told the Pistons could have had Frank Ntilikina instead of Dennis Smith Jr if they wanted him. They didn’t.

  127. Question: Do you have an understanding as to the word consent?

    Derrick Rose: No. But can you tell me?

    Question: I just wanted to know if you had an understanding.

    Derrick Rose: No.

  128. I’m more or less agnostic about trying to make the playoff

    Exactly. We don’t give a shit about the results Rose and Thibs are expected to provide, but I’m guessing they do.

    I’m not a fan of the move, but I can’t understand why people are literally beside themselves about it. This is 100% the move we all should have seen coming since preseason when we had zero functioning point guards.

    I guess if we had the pistons record at this point, we probably wouldn’t have made this move. But you knew Thibs wasn’t going to tank.

    Exercise in futility? Maybe. I’ll wait til they don’t make the playoffs to get pissed, though.

  129. thenoblefacehumper: I am aware that he was much better last year, but precipitous declines, especially at the rim, from 32 year old guards really shouldn’t be written off as small sample size theater.

    No, but it isn’t a reason to assume that he has reached that point either. And if he has, that would cost the team wins, which isn’t what Thibs wants to happen. So it will either be that Thibs is going to use him in a way that translates into wins, or that it will be obvious that Rose has lost it and he will not play much, and will certainly not be re-signed. One thing is clear. Regardless of what you say about Thibodeau, he values winning over pretty much anything else. You may not like the aesthetics of how he does it, but he’s not going to play players who get in the way of that….including DRose.

    thenoblefacehumper: Even if you’re in the “chase the 10th seed crowd,” is it really worth it if that comes at the expense of watching Quickley and Barrett develop? Because anyone saying confidently that there’s not some mutual exclusivity between playing Derrick Rose and those guys getting touches is choosing to ignore who Derrick Rose is despite the fact that we’ve literally seen this play before.

    There are two schools of though on this on the extremes: 1) players develop best when getting maximum minutes regardless of their impact on wins and losses, and 2) players develop best when they have to outplay veterans to get minutes, or at least don’t get in the way of wins. There is merit to both approaches, and Thibs seems to be in between the extremes but clearly favors option 2. Personally, I think your concerns that IQ, RJ and Obi are somehow going to wither on the vine as they play bit roles in The Derrick Rose Show are overblown, but given your known preferences re: rebuilding, predictable.

  130. And if he has, that would cost the team wins, which isn’t what Thibs wants to happen. So it will either be that Thibs is going to use him in a way that translates into wins, or that it will be obvious that Rose has lost it and he will not play much, and will certainly not be re-signed.

    Or Thibs fails to identify Rose as the agent of losing basketball and continues to play him in big minutes, or denies — like a certain brilliant poster on this board — that his poor play is attributable to his role or confidence or teammates and continues to invest playing time in him to effect the actual Derrick Rose he believes is lurking deep down.

    And then, of course, he may be re-signed.

  131. Z-man: but given your known preferences re: rebuilding, predictable.

    I don’t mean that pejoratively, just pointing out that when your starting point is “I never liked the Thibs hire or the likelihood of marginal wins screwing up our lottery position,” it seems pretty inevitable that you are going to find any moves of this nature annoying. The fact that it’s Rose, as opposed to another high-usage inefficient no-D PG, only makes it worse for you. That’s a totally fair POV, and despite my pragmatism I certainly am worried about what it says for both our present and our future. I’m just more “let’s wait and see” than you.

  132. Thibs has a cult-like loyalty to the guy that transcends all objectivity, rendering the odds that he’d ever identify him as a problem effectively zero.

    Thibs is a cultist. A lot of people rightly can’t stand him, and he’s alienated wide factions of the association, but he’s managed to keep a core group of loyalists — Rose/Noah/Butler/Deng/Gibson from his very early Bulls days, and the two coaches his hard work has greatly benefited professionally, Jeff Van Gundy and Doc Rivers. Add the CAA loyalty to that group and it’s just enough to keep him working. But he really isn’t a mainstream guy at this point and to anyone looking at this even semi-objectively, that’s a massive worry. It’s a massive worry when loyalty, rather than production and ability, is the measuring stick. It’s affecting his decision-making, and the team’s decision-making.

  133. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Or Thibs fails to identify Rose as the agent of losing basketball and continues to play him in big minutes, or denies — like a certain brilliant poster on this board — that his poor play is attributable to his role or confidence or teammates and continues to invest playing time in him to effect the actual Derrick Rose he believes is lurking deep down.

    And then, of course, he may be re-signed.

    That is a possibility, although I do sense a tiny bit of trolling on your part. Tell you what, why don’t we wait like 5 games to see what it looks like? We should know by then what direction this is headed.

  134. To me, it’s simple. Statistically and also the eye-test confirms, without a doubt, that Derrick Rose is better than Elfrid Payton in every way except defense. The Knicks improved. How much? Little. Rose might mean a net positive of 2 or 3 games. I don’t think it goes the other way.

    The big issue is fan attitude … a loser’s attitude. The virus which infects Knicks, Jets and Mets fans is insidious. It symptom features a need to tank, clinging onto mediocrity, ageism and the irrational belief that 2nd round picks should be taken rather than traded.

    This team has a core of kids we like: Randle, RJ, Mitch and IQ. We don’t really know about Obi yet. But that doesn’t mean any of them are untouchable or irreplaceable. But we are no longer the “worst team in the NBA”. It’s time to shed the loser mentality. The Knicks have had the most difficult schedule in the NBA. They’re in the playoffs as of now. The schedule turns in favor of the Knicks. The question should now be “how high a seed can the Knicks be?”.

    The BEST thing for the Knicks is to get the kids playoff experience. How about 2 rounds worth? I want to play the Nets and shut them down. Ponder this: What would you trade for Jimmy Butler? That’s how we should be thinking.

    Note: I hated the way this team was constructed, how Rose ignored the PG position, but the emergence of Quickley filled the gaping hole we all thought the Knicks had. The Knick point guard situation has gone from worst-in-league to okay.

  135. So it will either be that Thibs is going to use him in a way that translates into wins, or that it will be obvious that Rose has lost it and he will not play much, and will certainly not be re-signed.

    I don’t think the coach that let Jamal Crawford and Andrew Wiggins have higher usage rates than Karl-Anthony Towns has a perfect sense of what rotations are optimal.

    There are two schools of though on this on the extremes: 1) players develop best when getting maximum minutes regardless of their impact on wins and losses, and 2) players develop best when they have to outplay veterans to get minutes, or at least don’t get in the way of wins. There is merit to both approaches, and Thibs seems to be in between the extremes but clearly favors option 2.

    In the context of Barrett and Quickley specifically it sure seems clear to me that playing has helped them, as evidenced by the fact they they’re both playing well!

    The fact that it’s Rose, as opposed to another high-usage inefficient no-D PG, only makes it worse for you.

    Here’s what I don’t understand. Let’s say you want to pursue the playoffs at the expense of some minor assets. I’ll put aside the wisdom of that because we’ve had some version of that discussion a million times. Who the hell was saying “what this team needs is a high-usage inefficient no-D PG?”

  136. If Derrick Rose sends Payton into oblivion and Quickley’s role and minutes remain as they are, I would be somewhat tolerant of this trade. In the sense that:
    a) They identified correctly Payton as one of the problems of this team.
    b) Quickley’s role and minutes from the bench are a premeditated way of giving him minutes and protagonism without putting too much pressure on him.

    I am still concerned that:
    c) Rose is a terrible fit, in a shooting funk this year, and too old for any future plans.

    However, given the price, I will not complain too much if (as I said) Quickley’s minutes are untouched.

  137. The fact that Rose is a lame defender just shows how critical loyalty and known quantity-ism is for Thibs. Yuck.

  138. The big issue is fan attitude … a loser’s attitude. The virus which infects Knicks, Jets and Mets fans is insidious. It symptom features a need to tank, clinging onto mediocrity, ageism and the irrational belief that 2nd round picks should be taken rather than traded.

    You sure are inferring a lot from people saying “I really don’t want 32 year old Derrick Rose to be on my favorite basketball team.”

  139. ‘It’s time to shed the loser mentality.’

    Let’s trade for Derrick Rose.

    ‘ What would you trade for Jimmy Butler? ‘

    Nah, forget Butler, let’s get Derrick — that’ll get us over the hump.

    ‘…the emergence of Quickley filled the gaping hole we all thought the Knicks had. ‘

    So let’s fill the filled hole with the corpse of DRose.

  140. BTW,

    Any NBA team looking at tape of yesterday’s game will see how Miami doubleteamed RJ the moment he touched the ball – turning him into a non-factor. They also employed half-court trap effectively on Quickley, pinning into the corner where he tossed cross court jump-balls to avoid the turnover.

    Hopefully Knicks coaches also observed and will practice escape routes.

    Not excited about Derrick Rose, but hopefully its a rental.

  141. E, all merc’d out:
    The fact that Rose is a lame defender just shows how criticalloyalty and known quantity-ism is for Thibs.Yuck.

    Not as currently constructed.
    (Reposted since the original reply is awaiting moderation for some reason)

  142. Tell you what, why don’t we wait like 5 games to see what it looks like?

    Why would the next five games be more descriptive than the 141 he’s played since he left the Knicks four seasons ago?

    It symptom features a need to tank, clinging onto mediocrity, ageism and the irrational belief that 2nd round picks should be taken rather than traded.

    I really wish one of these anti-tank zealots would acknowledge that the point of tanking is to break the cycle of mediocrity and create a team that consistently competes deep into the playoffs. Just once.

  143. The lost 2nd hurts, because like Z-man said you can package 2 top 2nds and get a low 1st, and then maybe package 2 1sts and get into the low lottery.

    Even worse Quickly’s minutes which unless Payton is phased out may suffer.

    For desert we have Rose’s character issues.

    This trade sucks bigly.

  144. GoNYGoNYGo – Tired of Tanking:
    To me, it’s simple. Statistically and also the eye-test confirms, without a doubt, that Derrick Rose is better than Elfrid Payton in every way except defense.The Knicks improved. How much? Little.Rose might mean a net positive of 2 or 3 games. I don’t think it goes the other way.

    The big issue is fan attitude … a loser’s attitude. The virus which infects Knicks, Jets and Mets fans is insidious. It symptom features a need to tank, clinging onto mediocrity, ageism and the irrational belief that 2nd round picks should be taken rather than traded.

    This team has a core of kids we like: Randle, RJ, Mitch and IQ. We don’t really know about Obi yet. But that doesn’t mean any of them are untouchable or irreplaceable.But we are no longer the “worst team in the NBA”.It’s time to shed the loser mentality.The Knicks have had the most difficult schedule in the NBA. They’re in the playoffs as of now. The schedule turns in favor of the Knicks.The question should now be “how high a seed can the Knicks be?”.

    The BEST thing for the Knicks is to get the kids playoff experience.How about 2 rounds worth?I want to play the Nets and shut them down. Ponder this: What would you trade for Jimmy Butler?That’s how we should be thinking.

    Note: I hated the way this team was constructed, how Rose ignored the PG position, but the emergence of Quickley filled the gaping hole we all thought the Knicks had.The Knick point guard situation has gone from worst-in-league to okay.

    Aren’t you the dude who claimed that we could trade a pupu platter of Knox, Frank, DSJr, some other scrub and a second round pick for Bradley Beal because it worked in the trade machine?

  145. thenoblefacehumper: You sure are inferring a lot from people saying “I really don’t want 32 year old Derrick Rose to be on my favorite basketball team.”

    No. This is a general malady. Knick fans don’t want Harden. They don’t want Wall. They don’t want Westbrook. Plug in any of a dozen names that have been rejected in the name of Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox.

  146. The fact that RJ and IQ are good enough to warrant double-teams from the Miami Heat is a big positive, not a negative.

  147. Mike Honcho: Aren’t you the dude who claimed that we could trade a pupu platter of Knox, Frank, DSJr, some other scrub and a second round pick for Bradley Beal because it worked in the trade machine?

    One in the same. But that was not the full offer. It included picks and other players. I’m the guy that advocated trading for Beal – period.

  148. GoNYGoNYGo – Tired of Tanking: No. This is a general malady.Knick fans don’t want Harden. They don’t want Wall. They don’t want Westbrook.Plug in any of a dozen names that have been rejected in the name of Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox.

    Do you genuinely think “Knicks fans” (ie us, since you’d clearly rather go to town on some fictional strawman in your head rather than address the actual arguments mounted against you) would turn down superstars to keep Frank and Knox?

  149. GoNYGoNYGo – Tired of Tanking: One in the same. But that was not the full offer. It included picks and other players.I’m the guy that advocated trading for Beal – period.

    Nope. Your first draft of the trade was four scrubs and a second rounder. I remember that quite clearly because it was the stupidest, most out of touch trade proposal I’d ever seen and I thought for sure you had to be trolling.

  150. Rivers needs to go.
    Payton should be relegated to the 2nd unit alongside IQ.
    Rose plus Thibs equals synergy.

  151. Also, how is not wanting Westbrook a knock on Knicks fan? Are you paying any attention at all to what actually happens on the courts or would you rather just rail against “Knicks fans” addicted to losing?

  152. thenoblefacehumper: I don’t think the coach that let Jamal Crawford and Andrew Wiggins have higher usage rates than Karl-Anthony Towns has a perfect sense of what rotations are optimal.

    The record speaks for itself. Do you really think that another coach would have squeezed more wins out of that mess?

    thenoblefacehumper: In the context of Barrett and Quickley specifically it sure seems clear to me that playing has helped them, as evidenced by the fact they they’re both playing well!

    And who is the coach that has been playing them? And not playing Frank and Knox?

  153. 1) Derrick Rose fucking sucks to watch play basketball

    this…i mean the whole last “i don’t know how long” has been a dumpster fire of basketball at msg – but, derrick rose, despite his assist rate seemed to be more interested about getting his first all the time…not only is he slow on defense, but, never really seemed like he wanted to get very physical either…

    to top all that off – he would frequently get all pissy at his teammates out on the court when he fucked up…

  154. I’m not going to hold D Rose responsible for anything that happened the last time he was here. Horns was his coach and PJax was in charge. That team was a dumpster fire with no accountability and horrible coaching being given mixed messages on how to play by PJax.

    This is a totally different situation. No matter what you think of his current bball skill level, there is no denying that D Rose has thrived under Thibs and will know exactly what to expect.

    The defense is an issue but again, we’ve seen that defense is a team effort. Coaching, schemes and effort count for a lot and we know thibs demands effort and schemes for defense well.

  155. “The fact that RJ and IQ are good enough to warrant double-teams from the Miami Heat is a big positive, not a negative.”

    That’s true, but the flip side of that argument is that the Heat knew that nobody else on the team could hurt them when they rotate to a double team. And/or that the Knicks are so bad at passing that they wouldn’t be able to get the ball around to the open guy in time.

    I’ll just add, to stay topical, that I’m sure Rose will solve that particular problem.

  156. Yes, the Heat knew that, which is why the Knicks have to add better players and better shooters than Elfrid Payton and Reggie Bullock and Austin Rivers around the guys teams are targeting.

    It’s a great thing the Knicks have two players under 21 sophisticated and well-coached teams think should be double-teamed. Of course, Thibs will likely respond to this entirely the wrong way as it appears he already has.

  157. Spoelstra is such a buzz killer. He was coaching the Heat when they basically ended the Jeremy Lin fantasy ride, and yesterday he decided to shut down RJ and Quick and made them look terrible.

    He’s the coaching equivalent of Teddy KGB from Rounders: “It hurts doesn’t it, your hopes dashed, your dreams down the toilet.”

  158. i’ve really appreciated the collective effort to free us from the shackles of our self styled groundhog day romcom ironiloop. tacitly agreeing to ignore the mysterious great departure of jan 9 2017 and persecute any who dare commemorate it as mentally ill sufferers of a cultish pessimism virus may seem a bit on the nose
    to outsiders, but we know it needed to be done. the only question that remains is: was the leftovers a mockumentary?

    never ever forget that this exchange from the rose awol game:

    https://streamable.com/w7q5r

  159. The whole Spolestra double teaming thing just shows in full relief how each part and each component of an offense is impacted by the other components. If you can’t shoot, you don’t only brick your own shots, you make your teammates’ offense tougher to come by.

  160. Aren’t you the dude who

    I feel like it’s a civic responsibility to provide at the aloe vera at no cost when you start a sentence like this

    Knick fans don’t want Harden. They don’t want Wall. They don’t want Westbrook. Plug in any of a dozen names that have been rejected in the name of Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox

    You’re a long-timer, man. You were almost certainly where when I and others like me were arguing in 2012 that James Harden was a future superstar. We also argued that MVP-era Westbrook was an absurdly talented and productive, if overrated, do-it-all PG in the era of Hardenball. And John Wall is getting paid like $40M a year to be a replacement-level player next to a legit budding superstar in Christian Wood.

    And I, along with those posters who agreed with me on the other three players, fucking hated the Knox pick and quickly soured on the Ntilikina picks because they both absolutely suck at basketball and we could have gotten real talent at those draft slots.

    So it doesn’t have to be an either-or here, either. You can hard pass on the corpse of John Wall (he sucks this year, just not quite bad enough to write off entirely, except again, he has a supermax) AND hard pass on Frank Ntilikina’s career arc and the prospect of paying him $25M over three years to see if he ever learns how to dribble into the paint, what with being an NBA guard and everything.

  161. Early Bird: No. This is a general malady. Knick fans don’t want Harden. They don’t want Wall. They don’t want Westbrook. Plug in any of a dozen names that have been rejected in the name of Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox.

    please bring more stank into this thread, because it fucking stinks

  162. I’d like an app of some sort that sends me a push notification before games if drose is injured or otherwise away from the team. Just to save me the trouble of looking up injury reports.

  163. PT – You are flying over my head, not sure how it relates to Rose, but that clip of Breen and Clyde was absolutely hilarious. Was that the best thing Rose gave us in his last stint? Most likely.

    Anyway, fuck Derrick Rose and Leon Rose. This is all really dumb but like the early Christians I am carrying on. Someday we will have good basketball in the Garden and I just pray Clyde is there to talk about it.

  164. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Those are basically the same numbers with the caveat that the majority of his minutes last year came playing as a backup.
    Do I have to explain the problem with your line of reasoning, here?

    Actually maybe you do need to explain it to me. If you had a bench player who put up MVP numbers (in bench minutes), this would be a bad thing?

    I have no idea what is actually going to happen, but the best thing is that we will know soon enough, prob within the next couple weeks.

    If it were up to me asset maximization would be the name of the game, but like you said nothing wildly irresponsible has been done in pursuit of the playoffs so I don’t feel terribly strongly.

    Agree – but just like the Nets being a mediocre team last year turned Caris Levert (who is not great) into enough of an asset that he was the main player traded in the Harden trade, players look better if they are on teams that are not terrible. In terms of tanking enough that we have a plausible chance at a top 4 pick, that ship has sailed. We are 1/3 of the way through the season, currently in the 8th seed, and 1.5 games out of the 5th seed. There is no way we are going to tank this season. Given that fact, is it better for the franchise to benignly neglect the outcome of this season or is it better to make moves that might improve the outcome?

    Even though this team isn’t great, but is good enough that our lottery pick is unlikely to be a very good one, I’d wager that our overall asset chest is probably more valuable now — because Quickley, RJ, Mitch, Randle, and to a much lesser extent Burks/Bullock have all played well. The only way we would have a very valuable pick is if all those players were bad.

    I don’t know – it’s hard to be upset with this year. It’s fun to watch an ok team again.

  165. Is Derrick Rose’s neck tattoo of the Illuminati pyramid with “God Speed” written over it a new thing or was that there in his last stint? I kind of resent the intrusion on my branding here.

  166. I guess the takeaway here is despite drose being personally abhorrent, the Knicks have kept it professional and finally done something to rectify the team’s lack of shooting. Now we’ll have the spacing we need to compete.

  167. Hollinger also does not hate the trade:

    The Knicks’ trade for Derrick Rose resulted in the usual round of forehead-slapping and “here go the Knicks again.” Clearly, there is reason to be worried — New York has already been weirdly reluctant to hand Immanuel Quickley a starting job, and pushing him out of the point guard mix to play Rose would be insane. On the other hand, let me make a counterargument that it might not be that bad.

    Rose has played extensive time at the 2 the past two years in Detroit, and if New York intends to use him the same way, this deal seems relatively harmless. In that case, he’d be playing ahead of Austin Rivers and/or Reggie Bullock, neither of whom have set the world afire (aside from one glorious half against Utah by Rivers). To complete the trade, New York surrendered little-used Dennis Smith Jr., and a 2021 second-round pick from Charlotte that is likely to be in the 36-44 range. While I agree it’s suboptimal for the Knicks to be in “win-now” mode chasing the 10th seed rather than focus on the bigger picture of their rebuild, there also can be a bit too much pearl-clutching regarding second-round picks. Most of them end up failing. The Knicks still have one from the Pistons, ironically, that has a good chance of landing at 31 or 32.

    So in short, I don’t like this deal, and I wouldn’t have done it. But I also don’t think it’s some kind of disastrous mistake as long as Rose doesn’t supplant Quickley. They used the second to turn a useless player into a halfway decent one. The only debate is whether their 2020-21 season is worth the investment.

    It’s kind of funny to see so many national NBA analysts — especially one like Hollinger, who never passes on a chance to take a swipe at the Knicks — less up in arms about the move than we are. I still hate it.

  168. to be clear – watching an ok team make a push for a likely 1st round exit is not the goal. but we still have lots and lots of ways to improve even after this. 3 premium draft picks this coming draft, gobs and gobs of cap space, and young players that could be assets in bigger trades.

  169. Knick fans don’t want Harden.

    I want Harden

    They don’t want Wall.

    Wall makes a supermax and is coming off a huge injury, is on the wrong side of 30 and has always been overrated

    They don’t want Westbrook.

    Westbrook is 32, is playing like a sub-replacement level player this year, and makes a supermax

    You do realize that just because certain players were once good that they’re not going to be good forever, right? Like it’s really not that hard to see why you wouldn’t want to waste a max salary slot on players who rely a lot on their athleticism and who are in their decline phase, correct? Surely you must realize this.

  170. This a WTFW move for me. What the Fuck? Whatever.

    I’ve been asking the Knicks to bench Rivers for some time now, so this move might do so. Maybe it won’t impact Quickley’s minutes, just Rivers. But, Derrick Rose? Again? Hey, maybe he’s matured a bit in the past few years? Maybe? Maybe not? Maybe I should be careful what I ask for.

    I just hope we don’t end up in our own Groundhog Day of watching Rose part 2 doing what I referenced yesterday. The good old days of him driving crazy to the hoop, falling out of bounds, and then loafing back as the other team runs down the court 5 on 4 for the next 10 seconds or so. Or him on D bullfighting the guy he’s guarding, then pointing at other players who don’t have his back or whatever. When he’s on the court, he’s pretty much a power play for the opposing team on offense.

    Yeah, it’s just a mid 2nd. They still have two firsts and an early 2nd still in the upcoming draft. Heck, if the guy is still atrocious on D, it might actually end up being a stealth tank move. But, the Knicks have added another “merc,” so that kind of bums me out, but I’m not like all pissed off.

    It’s all part of life’s rich pageant.

  171. I’m definitely less viscerally angry at the move than I was yesterday, but I’m still disappointed and annoyed we are acquiring Mr. “Unable to Define Consent” again purely because Thibs has a cultish loyalty to him. Does Thibs feel guilty about Rose’s career-derailing injury in garbage time? Or does Rose have kompromat on Thibs from their Chicago days? Hopefully the next great Knickerblogger slash fiction from Donnie Walsh will address these enigmas.

  172. The Honorable Cock Jowles: shit, I meant his OutKast link

    No worries, Knickerblogger has a bug where it misattributes quotes from time to time.

    I’ll hazard to guess that it has to do with selecting text or clicking on one comment and then hitting the quote button from a different comment. WordPress assumes you want the highlighted text instead of the text in the correct comment. I’m sure the intention of the function is to let you selectively quote a comment, but mistakenly allows you to select text from another comment rather than auto-selecting the current comment.

    But yeah, to quote Outkast for those not clicking through, “[The] Roses smell like poo-poo-ooh”

  173. Mike Honcho:
    I’m definitely less viscerally angry at the move than I was yesterday, but I’m still disappointed and annoyed we are acquiring Mr. “Unable to Define Consent” again purely because Thibs has a cultish loyalty to him. Does Thibs feel guilty about Rose’s career-derailing injury in garbage time? Or does Rose have kompromat on Thibs from their Chicago days? Hopefully the next great Knickerblogger slash fiction from Donnie Walsh will address these enigmas.

    I think he just wants veteran attacking PGs to run his offense at all times, and Rose may be the best they can get at this time. Payton’s inconsistent (at best) at that, and like all of us older gents there’s probably some nostalgia involved for Thibs. He can now get 48 minutes of that per game, if he likes.

    And, yeah, he just probably doesn’t trust giving lots of minutes to rookies unless they were like an early lottery pick. But, it also might just be Rivers who loses minutes here.

  174. This is what happens when people argue that Groundhog Day is a rom-com – then are then sentenced to have to live it.

    Welcome back, Derrick!

  175. Great point Honcho. Having Rose in unnecessarily in that playoff game has to be Thib’s biggest mistake.

  176. Actually maybe you do need to explain it to me. If you had a bench player who put up MVP numbers (in bench minutes), this would be a bad thing?

    You do realize that the game is not the same as it was in 2011.

  177. Frank:
    to be clear – watching an ok team make a push for a likely 1st round exit is not the goal. but we still have lots and lots of ways to improve even after this.3 premium draft picks this coming draft, gobs and gobs of cap space, and young players that could be assets in bigger trades.

    A key point (over and over again) is that all that cap space and those assets are utterly useless unless the team is a playoff contender and seen as a good destination among premier free agents and unhappy players looking to be traded. Otherwise we’ll keep signing (and sometimes overpaying) mercs because no one wants to play on a trash team.

    We have a ton of upside among the young players we have right now to go along with Randle and plenty of draft firepower to add to them if we don’t use some of those assets in a trade for a star player later.

    The only time you are really in trouble is if you are capped out, don’t have picks, and have a few overpaid or unattractive players that no one wants. That was the position we were in a few years back. It was ghoulish, but it’s been over for a few years.

    Now we are flexible, have picks, some youth, and fair contracts. There are loads of ways for a smart management to improve over time. It takes time to rebuild. Mills/Perry made a few mistakes that set us back again, but we are fine. We just have to get past the tanking phase to be attractive.

    The reaction to the Rose trade is comical. No problemo!

  178. I think he just wants veteran attacking PGs to run his offense at all times, and Rose may be the best they can get at this time.

    This is most likely it. If Rose (The GM) doesn’t want to give up a first round pick or any player with any chance of a future, then Rose (the player) is probably the best he can do and it helps that he’s played for Thibs before. Its a way to give Thibs some shoring up on his team in an area of weakness while not really sacrificing anything (not even Knox or Frank, just DSJ) for the future. I guess the 2nd round pick is potentially giving up something but its not much to give up really.

    Like it or not, we are most likely a playoff team with or without Derrick Rose. So if we’re going to be a playoff team anyways, why not shore up the team a bit without sacrificing anything of real value for the future.

  179. There’s several ways to view the Rose trade:

    (1) What does it do for us this year?
    (2) How does this improve our longterm prospects?
    (3) Is this good asset management?
    (4) Does trading for Rose make sense from a macro-strategic standpoint?

    For (1), this trade makes a lot of sense. DSJR sucks and a 2nd rd pick is useless to us within this season and likely doesn’t return much more value than Rose. From a fully rational standpoint, Rose will either be better than our other options or he won’t play. Of course, Thibs isn’t a fully rational actor and will likely play Rose regardless of whether he’s an improvement or not.

    Continuing to build on (1), we can value the tradeoff between Payton’s D & Rose’s O. Rose is a better fit attacking the basket and making fewer passes, however, as people have pointed out Rose will probably also eat attempts of more efficient scorers and not just Payton. This year, Rose’s O hasn’t been enough to offset his D, which is a straight loss.

    For (2) the answer is obviously “no” since Rose is a FA this summer and we’d have the 2nd round pick moving forward or it could be rolled into another asset or a different future 2nd.

    Of course, the value of (1) & (3) depends on its value in light of (4). In other words, does making a marginal improvement this year make sense from a macro-strategic standpoint?

    The answer is no. When there’s a plethora of franchise talents at the top of the draft, the Knicks should do everything they can to maximize their lotto odds. If RJ or IQ carry us above that point, we can live with it. If Randle carries us, then we can live with it on the premise we can and should trade him for more valuable assets than marginally better lotto odds this year, ie, more 1st rd picks.

    There’s some sense to playing well this year in an attempt to woo FAs, but who is worth wooing this year? Spencer Dinwiddie? Evan Fournier? John Collins only makes sense if we move Randle and don’t believe in Obi…

  180. PT – You are flying over my head, not sure how it relates to Rose, but that clip of Breen and Clyde was absolutely hilarious. Was that the best thing Rose gave us in his last stint? Most likely.

    i know owen, right?

    i love that milo doesn’t feel any great need to provide cliff notes to his thoughts…it’s like: i’m just gonna write down what i’m thinking, if you get it, you get it, if not, oh well…

    i’m watching a little bit of “Bluey” right now (the kids are actually gone at the moment) – i didn’t recall the show and i was curious…the kids are mostly all past the disney jr and nick jr shows…

    Bluey has a very Peppa Pig vibe…i think some of the voice actors might even be the same folks…

    personally i like the PJ Masks’ animation and stories a bunch…the youngest god child is still a bit of a fan, so i even got a bunch of the toy figures set up in the living room…

  181. In his MVP season, Rose added 32.3 pts by TS Add. Last year he subtracted 15.5 pts.

    In his MVP season, Rose’s TS% was higher than league average. Last year, Rose TS% was lower than league average.

    We also shouldn’t discount an aging, athleticism-dependent player’s early struggles at the basket where he’s taken 53 shots already. For point blank range, that number should stabilize quickly.

    Finally, don’t forget the Knicks have the worst spacing in the league. Rose’s rim attempts & percentage will likely fall, regardless of natural decline in ability.

  182. Early Bird:
    In his MVP season, Rose added 32.3 pts by TS Add. Last year he subtracted 15.5 pts.

    In his MVP season, Rose’s TS% was higher than league average. Last year, Rose TS% was lower than league average.

    We also shouldn’t discount an aging, athleticism-dependent player’s early struggles at the basket where he’s taken 53 shots already. For point blank range, that number should converge quickly.

    Finally, don’t forget the Knicks have the worst spacing in the league. Rose’s rim attempts & percentage will likely fall, regardless of natural decline in ability.

    I’ve said getting him might be stealth tanking. Actually, I used the wrong term. I should have said unintentional tanking. Whatever the case, yeah, I think Rose might actually be good for those wanting to tank. We’ll see.

  183. Deeefense: A key point (over and over again) is that all that cap space and those assets are utterly useless unless the team is a playoff contender and seen as a good destination among premier free agents and unhappy players looking to be traded. Otherwise we’ll keep signing (and sometimes overpaying) mercs because no one wants to play on a trash team.

    But the problem is that Derrick Rose does not move the needle on that front and may actually be a detriment. It isn’t just the philosophical objection, which to me is entirely valid, it’s that Derrick Rose looks like he isn’t any good anymore. A team with a bunch of shitty or mediocre players whom the coach is known to favor isn’t appealing to anyone on the outside in the least. There has to be little question that Thibs’s us-or-them style and perspective is well known throughout the league and if a player isn’t one of his cult members, it has to be very unappealing to want to sign up. What player is going to want to come here and be judged on an entirely different standard than one of Thibs’s pets?

    We’ve already seen Thibs’s silly double standards and old coot preferences at work and now Derrick Rose is going to make all that stuff even worse.

  184. I’ve really appreciated the collective effort to free us from the shackles of our self styled groundhog day romcom ironiloop.

    Here’s a new topic, that’s the same topic for you ptmilo:

    Russian Doll is also a rom-com. And under the 2-sides theory to rom-coms, for those who subscribe to it, Russian Doll is more of a rom-com than Groundhog Day.

    It’s a romantic dark-comedy, but fits the bill by several proffered definitions.

  185. E, as usual, you overblow things.

    The idea that you have to be a Thibs cult player veteran to play for him just isn’t backed up at all by who is getting minutes this year.

    RJ and Mitch have gotten PLENTY of minutes this year. And Quickley has gotten a lot too. Sure, Thibs might have a tighter leash on Quickley when he messes up because he’s a rookie but that’s hardly the same as him not playing him. When Quickley has it going (and Elf doesn’t) Quickley plays more minutes. The overall trend for his minutes is up as the season goes along.

    On a smaller scale the same is true for Toppin. He’s slowly getting a few more minutes each game. Its not Thibs fault the FO drafted him with Randle already on the team and considering we can bring Randle back next year and its only 26, it would be kind of crazy for Thibs to cut significantly cut back on Randle’s minutes when he’s playing this well just to give more to Toppin.

    Other than that there’s Knox, who was getting minutes but then stopped shooting. And there’s Frank, who is constantly injured and Thibs wouldn’t be the first coach to not play him that much.

    I just think you’re overreacting to this, as signaled by your username. You seem to have a prejudice against Thibs. Expecting your players to play your way and expecting the best out of them isn’t a “cult.” Its what most wining coaches do. Does Pop let rookies play minutes on end full of mistakes without yanking them? What about Spo? Spo recently benched Herro, by the way.

  186. Apropos of nothing, no one warned me how good the Sopranos soundtrack is, or how inventive and clever the show was in terms of editing/presentation and whatnot. This show is better and more experimental in those areas than a lot of “modern” shows I’ve seen.

  187. GoNYGoNYGo – Tired of Tanking: The big issue is fan attitude … a loser’s attitude. The virus which infects Knicks, Jets and Mets fans is insidious. It symptom features a need to tank, clinging onto mediocrity, ageism and the irrational belief that 2nd round picks should be taken rather than traded.

    This is mediocrity! We’re 3 games under .500 and the only reason we’re in the playoff race is because the east is, as usual, terrible and the bottom 3 playoff teams are all under .500.

  188. The only way this move has any real long-term consequence is if somehow Quickley gets buried because of it, and by all accounts it sounds like it’ll Rivers and not Quickley that will see a decrease in minutes.

    honestly, even if Derrick Rose plays a ton of minutes and takes a ton of shots, it still has no long-term consequence – it’s not like RJ’s usage going from 24 to 22 in the 5 minutes he and Rose play together will change RJ as a player. If all the doomsayers are right and Derrick Rose stinks, it’ll actually help the tank. Didn’t we have a poster here named Accidentank for a while?

    The only thing that theoretically matters long term in this trade is the Charlotte pick, which, while annoying to give up, is probably not that big a deal esp considering we have 3 earlier picks.

  189. Alan:

    It’s kind of funny to see so many national NBA analysts — especially one like Hollinger, who never passes on a chance to take a swipe at the Knicks — less up in arms about the move than we are. I still hate it.

    But they all agreed (Hollinger, Vorkunov, Pelton, the trio at The Athletic…) that if this end up stealing minutes for IQ and Barrett then it’ll be a very bad move.

    I strongly dislike Derrick Rose, but from a basketball perspective the only thing that really worries me is the impact on the young players’ playing time (IQ and Barrett, not Knox and Frank, just to be clear).

    Clyde’s reaction to the news was so candid :-)

    KBloggers’ judgement on all the other aspects of the trade are based as usual on the same old spectrum of opinions (propensity/hate for tanking, belief/denial that playoff experience is useful, optimism/pessimism on the FO, Knicks’ Fan PTSD, Rose’s past as a Knick and a citizen, his style of play, Old Guard vs Analytics) and are impossible to reconcile.

  190. I wonder who the playoff team that might want Austin Rivers is.
    Can’t imagine he’d go back to the Clippers.

    Even better question is who in the world would want Elfrid Payton?

  191. Clyde’s reaction to the news was so candid :-)

    if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all

    definitely took clyde a moment to find some words…

  192. so, is it pretty much the consensus here the derrick rose won’t be starting for the team a month from now?

  193. geo:
    so, is it pretty much the consensus here the derrick rose won’t be starting for the team a month from now?

    No, for me is 50%-50% :-)

  194. My initial assumption is Rose would start immediately over Payton. Payton would play w/ IQ in the 2nd unit, so IQ would be more of a SG.

    So, no that’s not my assumption.

    Also, Payton is frequently injured. Rose is likely to start just based on injury risk. (Maybe this justifies the trade to avoid injury risk and needing to play Frank?!????)

  195. yeah, that’s kind of what i was thinking too :(

    i’m not sooooo thrilled with elf’s play as our starting point guard…at least he knows how to let julius control the offense (not saying that’s an ideal situation either)…rose is gonna rose (hero ball here we come) – and not play any defense…

  196. vincoug: This is mediocrity! We’re 3 games under .500 and the only reason we’re in the playoff race is because the east is, as usual, terrible and the bottom 3 playoff teams are all under .500.

    You need to first achieve mediocrity when you were abysmal before you become outstanding.

  197. Tankophiles and Pessimists have a rough season so far so it’s perfectly fine to blow off some steam after DRose’s trade!
    It’s a breath of fresh-toxic air for a while!
    lol

  198. This is mediocrity! We’re 3 games under .500 and the only reason we’re in the playoff race is because the east is, as usual, terrible and the bottom 3 playoff teams are all under .500.

    We have the lowest payroll in the NBA. We have the 6th best defense. The 4th youngest team. We have 2 first round picks coming up, at least one of which will most likely be in the top 8. With a little bit of lotto luck, we could have a top 5 pick while still making the playoffs (and another one in the 15 to 20 range). We have no real bad contracts weighing us down for the future either.

    Oh, and we’ve achieved this “mediocrity” while going through a big chunk of games where we were missing like 4 rotation players due to injury. We’ve also had a lot of road games and one of the toughest schedules so far.

    To dismiss all of that as mediocrity just because the team isn’t tanking seems overly pessimistic in my view. I’ll say it again. Most people thought we would miss the playoffs and Dallas would make it. In that scenario, we’d still end up with a lotto pick and non lotto pick. So to now be upset we aren’t potentially going to have 2 lotto picks…seems a little greedy to me.

    I get it. Unless we’re a 50 win team with our starting 5 all under the age of 24 and sign everyone one of our core pieces to below market value so we have a 10 year plus window of being championship contenders we aren’t rebuilding the correct way to some people. Me, I’ll settle for this type of mediocrity for now. Its not like some of our best players aren’t still going to get better. Its not like we aren’t adding any more young talent to our team over the next few years.

  199. I think Rose will start and Payton will back him until. IQ will see 10-15 minutes a game in a rotation with Burks and Rivers backing up Bullock and Barrett.

    I think this will put a hard cap on IQ minutes at around 20 and most games it will be closer to 10. I think both Burks and Payton will see more minutes than IQ and think Rivers will split the rest of the time with IQ. The plan might be to bench Rivers but I think a Thibs likes him and will find reasons to play him.

    I also could see Barrett getting less touches or even fall out of the starting lineup, for Burks, in an “effort to help make space” for Rose and Randle.

    If we make the playoffs I think IQ is out of the lineup and Barrett comes off the bench. Thibs is going to lean on his guys and that means less IQ and probably less Barrett.

    I also would put us bring back Rose at a minimum contract, or close to it as very very likely.

  200. I’m glad to have stirred things up a bit :)

    Mike Honcho:
    Also, how is not wanting Westbrook a knock on Knicks fan? Are you paying any attention at all to what actually happens on the courts or would you rather just rail against “Knicks fans” addicted to losing?

    Westbrook is far from awful. The Wizards as a team are awful. Westbrook has only played in 14 games due to rest days, COVID cancellations and a groin injury. He has 5 triple-doubles in those 14 games. He and Beal are not their Wizards problem.

    Deeefense: A key point (over and over again) is that all that cap space and those assets are utterly useless unless the team is a playoff contender and seen as a good destination among premier free agents and unhappy players looking to be traded. Otherwise we’ll keep signing (and sometimes overpaying) mercs because no one wants to play on a trash team.

    Deeefense, I’m gonna back you on this. A good foundation is like nectar to the bumble bee. The most difficult thing for an NBA team to do is shed the scarlet letter of being awful. It’s why achieving mediocrity, is so important when you’ve been abysmal.

  201. Knew Your Nicks:
    Tankophiles and Pessimists have a rough season so far so it’s perfectly fine to blow off some steam after DRose’s trade!
    It’s a breath of fresh-toxic air for a while!
    lol

    Love it!

  202. GoNYGoNYGo – Tired of Tanking:
    I’m glad to have stirred things up a bit :)

    Westbrook is far from awful.The Wizards as a team are awful.Westbrook has only played in 14 games due to rest days, COVID cancellationsand a groin injury. He has 5 triple-doubles in those 14 games. He and Beal are not their Wizards problem.

    If you genuinely think Westbrook is still a good player worth spending assets to acquire at his current age and contract because he’s strung together some triple doubles, I have a nice bridge you might be interested in. Note that Westbrook was considered a negative asset in the trade market by pretty much everyone, and Washington took him on as a cost of dumping Wall.

  203. One more ode to our “martyrs”!
    Being a 21st Century Knicks fan is miserable by default.
    But being a Pessimist Knicks fan tends to a masochistic perversion if you’re unable to even enjoy team’s ultrarare “unexpected” success so far.
    It’s good for the conversation tho! lol

  204. Eh I think I’m fairly cynical and I’ve enjoyed this season. We’ve had a few missteps, but nothing crippling and we have both space and picks moving forwards. I’m willing to admit I find the Rose trade odious for mostly non-basketball reasons, though I am in the camp that there were better things to do with that pick (like bundling it in another, more impactful move). This season has been night and day to the Phil Jackson and Mills era, which has been nice.

  205. I stand by it. Westbrook is FAR from awful. And I know it’s not 2016. And his contract sucks. He’s not awful.

  206. Mike Honcho:
    Apropos of nothing, no one warned me how good the Sopranos soundtrack is, or how inventive and clever the show was in terms of editing/presentation and whatnot. This show is better and more experimental in those areas than a lot of “modern” shows I’ve seen.

    It is fantastic, and still holds up twenty years later. The acting can be uneven (scenes between the marvelous Tony and the stiff Jackie Jr. come to mind) and certain episodes are nearly unwatchable (“Columbus,” ugh) but when it’s on, it’s on.

    How deep in are you?

  207. GoNYGoNYGo – Tired of Tanking:
    I stand by it. Westbrook is FAR from awful.And I know it’s not 2016. And his contract sucks. He’s not awful.

    Unfortunately, acquiring him means acquiring his contract. You can’t get the one without the other.

  208. The Honorable Cock Jowles: It is fantastic, and still holds up twenty years later. The acting can be uneven (scenes between the marvelous Tony and the stiff Jackie Jr. come to mind) and certain episodes are nearly unwatchable (“Columbus,” ugh) but when it’s on, it’s on.

    How deep in are you?

    Yeah I’ve noticed Meadow’s boyfriends tend to be terrible actors haha. I just finished Pine Barrens, which going into I had heard it was one of the best episodes. It lived up to the hype for me. Just perfectly done.

  209. Whoa, holy shit. My wife and I just started watching The Sopranos too, neither of us had seen it beyond a few episodes.

    And it REALLY still holds up. Also, I didn’t realize how funny it is. James Gandolfini is so good you forget that he’s dead (RIP).

    We just finished the pine meadows episode too. Pauly is driving me crazy this season.

  210. ptmilo: never ever forget that this exchange from the rose awol game: https://streamable.com/w7q5r

    Thanks man, a distraction from people trying to convince themselves DRose won’t affect Quickley and/or RJ was needed, and there’s no better than Clyde’s jokes! That was totally hilarious! :D

  211. Gandolfini was the best. That was by far my biggest takeaway when I rewatched the show before writing The Sopranos Sessions. I used to think you would put him on a Mt Rushmore of American TV drama actors with, say, Bryan Cranston, Claire Danes, and Andre Braugher. But, no. Jim gets his own mountain. That’s how much better he was than anyone else who’s ever done this.

  212. Westbrook is far from awful. The Wizards as a team are awful. Westbrook has only played in 14 games due to rest days, COVID cancellations and a groin injury. He has 5 triple-doubles in those 14 games. He and Beal are not their Wizards problem.

    Funny thing about Westbrook’s season: he’s exactly the kind of player all-in-one box score metrics probably overrate, and yet here he is with a negative WS48 and BPM. This is one of the funnier hills any poster has died on in a long time. I mean even the most analytically backward voices in the mainstream media have come around to the opinion that Westbrook is cooked.

    We have 2 first round picks coming up, at least one of which will most likely be in the top 8. With a little bit of lotto luck, we could have a top 5 pick while still making the playoffs (and another one in the 15 to 20 range).

    I’m enjoying the Mavs’ struggles but I highly doubt they’ll give us a top 8 pick. Them doing so is certainly not “likely.”

    I get it. Unless we’re a 50 win team with our starting 5 all under the age of 24 and sign everyone one of our core pieces to below market value so we have a 10 year plus window of being championship contenders we aren’t rebuilding the correct way to some people.

    The dialogue on here is so weird right now:

    “Trading a minor asset for a 32 year old credibly accused rapist who is having a shitty season and will likely take touches from young players was a bad idea.”

    “SO YOU WANT TO TANK FOR 15 YEARS HUH?!?!?!?!?!”

  213. Gandolfini was absolutely brilliant, the best acting performance I’ve seen in TV, so it’s nice to have a human encyclopedia like Alan agree with me. I have repeatedly told Lady Jowles that it’s worth watching for his performance alone. And he, as well as Edie Falco, does far more than you’ve seen. His character’s arc and Gandolfini’s realization of it are absolutely incredible, and together are one of the reasons that the show persists as the greatest show ever made.

  214. honestly, even if Derrick Rose plays a ton of minutes and takes a ton of shots, it still has no long-term consequence – it’s not like RJ’s usage going from 24 to 22 in the 5 minutes he and Rose play together will change RJ as a player.

    So now we’re rationalizing Barrett and/or Quickley losing touches to Derrick god damn Rose. I have said from the start that this is not some franchise ruining trade and no one is saying it is, but will you really not be annoyed as hell when that happens? I mean what is the case for it being an affirmatively good thing, which is what you’re supposed to get when you trade assets?

    The reason I’ve enjoyed this season is because the wins have largely been fueled by Barrett and Quickley. Now they’ll often be fueled by a 32 year old who sucks to root for and sucks to watch. I know it’s fun to be an edgy contrarian but the case for this trade is laughably weak.

  215. Is Derrick Rose’s neck tattoo of the Illuminati pyramid with “God Speed” written over it a new thing or was that there in his last stint? I kind of resent the intrusion on my branding here.

    i’m not a big ink dude myself (i can’t even usually settle on what’s for dinner, forget committing to some kind of permanent marking) – but man, those neck tattoos gotta hurt some right…

    saw some guy had put a diamond in his head, like vision…i don’t know, i’m getting old…

  216. The fact that this comes on the heels of Thibs yanking RJ makes this even more troubling.

    Our starting lineup will soon be Rose, Burks, Bullock, Randle, Mitch.

  217. geo: i’m not a big ink dude myself (i can’t even usually settle on what’s for dinner, forget committing to some kind of permanent marking) – but man, those neck tattoos gotta hurt some right…

    saw some guy had put a diamond in his head, like vision…i don’t know, i’m getting old…

    I kind of wanted to get like a Yggdrasil style world tree tattoo but apparently the neo-nazis are using that one so I’m passing for now. I wanted it in more of an axis mundi sense anyways so there’s probably another way to express that.

  218. Our starting lineup will soon be Rose, Burks, Bullock, Randle, Mitch.

    Just give Taj time to work himself up into starter’s minutes, Hubert…

  219. The thing about The Sopranos that struck me upon rewatching it was how funny it was. I think it the only show in the great history of television which could conceivably qualify as an all time top 5 Drama and Comedy.

  220. Mike Honcho: This season has been night and day to the Phil Jackson and Mills era, which has been nice.

    It’s still night. It’s just not as pitch black. Or maybe your eyes are just getting used to the darkness.

    I’m telling y’all… the writing is on the wall with Leon Rose. It was there on draft night. It’s going to take some of you a bit longer to see it bc you want to give him a fair shot. He’s not as bad as Phil Jackson or Steve Mills. But he’s fucking bad.

    We had four picks in the 2021 draft. Now if you set the over/under on how many players from that draft make our roster at 0.5, I might go under.

    These guys want mediocre vets, and they’re willing to give up assets to get them. In a league with so many sharks as GM’s, they will find the blood in the water and steal those picks from Rose.

  221. Yeah I was definitely not expecting laugh-out-loud humor with the Sopranos. I was kind of assuming it’d be more similar to Breaking Bad, where any humor is strictly of the gallows variety, but so far there’s been plenty of laugh out loud moments.

  222. I’m making plans to embark on a total re-watch of The Sopranos, my wife has never watched the whole serie, with Alan’s book as my Virgil.

    Still one of my favourite shows ever.

  223. Go Figure!

    20 Nov 2020
    Bob Myers-GSW GM

    “I talked to somebody today, an opposing coach just called me who I really admire and respect, and called and said ‘I’m very sorry about Klay.’ And I said I think there’s two players in the NBA that everybody likes and respects without a doubt. And I’m going to say the other guy’s name. I don’t think I’m going to get in trouble I don’t think I’ll get in trouble but I’ll say the other guy’s name. I think it’s Klay Thompson and Derrick Rose. Those two guys, I think, are universally beloved.

  224. Hubert: It’s still night. It’s just not as pitch black. Or maybe your eyes are just getting used to the darkness.

    I’m telling y’all… the writing is on the wall with Leon Rose. It was there on draft night. It’s going to take some of you a bit longer to see it bc you want to give him a fair shot. He’s not as bad as Phil Jackson or Steve Mills. But he’s fucking bad.

    We had four picks in the 2021 draft. Now if you set the over/under on how many players from that draft make our roster at 0.5, I might go under.

    These guys want mediocre vets, and they’re willing to give up assets to get them. In a league with so many sharks as GM’s, they will find the blood in the water and steal those picks from Rose.

    I suppose I should have specified to a glooomy, half-lit kind of day haha, but I do think we’ll keep the lottery picks. If Rose is dumb enough to dumb both of our first rounders next year I might join you in Knicks nihilism. (Knicksilism?)

  225. But being a Pessimist Knicks fan tends to a masochistic perversion if you’re unable to even enjoy team’s ultrarare “unexpected” success so far.

    finally a greek chorus that gets me. this is not about derrick rose and his lack of marginal utility to this team or the low but still very much nonzero value of a pretty good 2nd rounder. it is about unwavering fidelity to an unabashedly morose ritual of pain and despondency, for their own sake. damnit shirley.

    They do say,” Mr. Adams said to Old Man Warner, who stood next to him, “that over in the north village they’re talking of giving up the lottery.”

    Old Man Warner snorted. “Pack of crazy fools,” he said. “Listening to the young folks, nothing’s good enough for them. Next thing you know, they’ll be wanting to go back to living in caves, nobody work any more, live that way for a while. Used to be a saying about ‘Lottery in June, corn be heavy soon.’ First thing you know, we’d all be eating stewed chickweed and acorns. There’s always been a lottery,” he added petulantly. “Bad enough to see young Joe Summers up there joking with everybody.”

    “Some places have already quit lotteries,” Mrs. Adams said.

    “Nothing but trouble in that,” Old Man Warner said stoutly. “Pack of young fools.”

  226. We’ve discussed the macro pluses and minuses of getting Rose a lot, but we haven’t discussed whether he actually makes the team better very much. To me, it depends on how he’s used. On paper, replacing Smith, who couldn’t get any playing time at all, with Rose, might be considered making the team better. But the actual outcome depends on whose minutes Rose replaces. Many posters seem to be assuming that Thibs will play him a lot in a prominent role because that’s what he did with Rose before. If he does, team offense might go up, but defense will certainly go down. I’m not looking forward to that. On the other hand, if he replaces Rivers’ minutes, the team might get better. I don’t have faith Thibs will do that, but it’s hard to predict. Gibson has also been used a lot by Thibs in the past, but he’s not getting heavy usage now.

  227. I think there is little chance that Rose starts, but I think it’ll take a couple of games to see precisely what role he will play. I think the most likely scenario by far is that Thibs views Rose and Payton as like Mitch/Noel, where the replacement replicates the skill set of the starter.

    So the question will be who will lose time? Rivers or Quickley? I really don’t know. We shall see soon enough.

  228. I don’t know where pt is going today, but there definitely is something about the Knicks experience that feels like a ritual stoning.

    Every time we get a new PoBO, there’s that feeling that maybe it won’t be us getting stoned this time.

    Then we get hit with the first rock… a Melo Mega Max, Tim Hardaway Jr, giving up a perfectly good 2nd Rd pick for no reason… Then comes the next rock… Aaron Afflalo, Ron Baker, trading for Derrick Rose. Then there’s those big ones that take out half your brain… your Bargnani’s.

    Right now we’re just getting lightly pelted. But the big stone is coming. It always does.

  229. Today’s Knicks commentary for this week’s ESPN power rankings

    The Knicks find themselves in a playoff spot a third of the way through the season — a better result than anyone reasonably could’ve expected. Now, we’ll see if the team gets a further spark by the reunion of coach Tom Thibodeau with former league MVP Derrick Rose, whom the Knicks reacquired after Sunday’s loss to Miami. The Knicks are (ironically) tied with Detroit for 24th in the NBA in offensive efficiency, to go along with their sixth-ranked defense. Detroit, however, was 6.5 points per 100 possessions worse offensively with Rose on the court than off it this season.

    The last sentence is particularly worrisome and encapsulates everything TNFH is worried about.

  230. The Wizards suck because every time Beal goes off for 50 pts on 20 shots, Westbrook is scoring 14 pts on 50 shots and turning the ball over 5 times a game.

  231. Knick fan not in NJ:
    Today’s Knicks commentary for this week’s ESPN power rankings

    The last sentence is particularly worrisome and encapsulates everything TNFH is worried about.

    Lost in all the psychological analysis of members of this board there is this, the fact the fucking worse team in the NBA thinks Dennis Smith Jr and a useless second are better than the guy we got, and that he might just not be a good basketball player at all.

  232. BTW let me just get one thing out there: let’s stop psychoanalyzing people you don’t know or diagnosing them with a “mental illness” of any sort. This is 2021, this shit isn’t funny or something you just throw out there specially in these terrible trying times we’ve all been living through.

    Discuss opinions, hate all you want the messages, but try not to go as low as this shit please.

  233. 20 Nov 2020
    Bob Myers-GSW GM: “I think it’s Klay Thompson and Derrick Rose. Those two guys, I think, are universally beloved.”

    I feel like there should be a laugh track accompanying this statement

  234. Well, they’ll stone you and say that it’s the end
    Then they’ll stone you and then they’ll come back again

    But I would not feel so all alone
    Everybody must get stoned

  235. I feel like there should be a laugh track accompanying this statement

    remember when rose had that 50 point game for the wolves – man, it was like the birth of baby jesus and the buddha all rolled up in one moment…

    rose is a very sympathetic figure for many…

  236. d-mar:
    20 Nov 2020
    Bob Myers-GSW GM: “I think it’s Klay Thompson and Derrick Rose. Those two guys, I think, are universally beloved.”

    I feel like there should be a laugh track accompanying this statement

    Even if this is true, why should we care as fans? Did his belovedness help out Cleveland or Minnesota or Detroit?

  237. From Berman ( not Woodward, Bernstein, Jane Mayer, or[for boomers] Sy Hersh) of the Post
    “It makes sense in there’s a lot of pressure for the organization — they feel they need to win,’’ one NBA executive familiar with the Knicks’ thinking said. “It’s not OK to just play better than last season and progress. That’s not good enough. There’s internal pressure* that they want to win, it doesn’t matter whose minutes [Rose] takes. They just want to win. He’s still got a tremendous ability to score.”
    https://nypost.com/2021/02/08/a-lot-of-pressure-prompted-knicks-trade-for-derrick-rose/
    * internal pressure=geetar jimmy d

  238. it’s funny, i always had thought rainy day women #12 and 35 (okay smart folks – what’s the 12 and 35 all about?) was pretty much just like 3 dog night/newman’s: mama told me not to come

    who knew it was some lottery riff stuff…

  239. #BTW let me just get one thing out there: let’s stop psychoanalyzing people you don’t know or diagnosing them with a “mental illness” of any sort. This is 2021, this shit isn’t funny or something you just throw out there specially in these terrible trying times we’ve all been living through.

    Discuss opinions, hate all you want the messages, but try not to go as low as this shit please.#

    I guess this one goes to me.
    Psychoanalyzing people and diagnosing mental illness ? Aren’t you overreacting a bit?
    Optimists and Frankophiles as myself are mocked in here and considered lunatics or stupid for ages.

    Anyway if i offended or hurt anyone’s feelings I’m sorry
    Not intentional

  240. Seems like only yesterday that the drafting of Immanuel Quickley at #25 represented one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse….

  241. The assumption is that anyone who follows the fortunes of this godforsaken franchise suffers from severe mental illness…Bruno is just saying no need to rub it in.

  242. #The assumption is that anyone who follows the fortunes of this godforsaken franchise suffers from severe mental illness…Bruno is just saying no need to rub it in.#

    I’ll try but it won’t be easy!
    I suffer too!

  243. Knew Your Nicks:
    #BTW let me just get one thing out there: let’s stop psychoanalyzing people you don’t know or diagnosing them with a “mental illness” of any sort. This is 2021, this shit isn’t funny or something you just throw out there specially in these terrible trying times we’ve all been living through.

    Discuss opinions, hate all you want the messages, but try not to go as low as this shit please.#

    I guess this one goes to me.
    Psychoanalyzing people and diagnosing mental illness ? Aren’t you overreacting a bit?
    Optimists and Frankophiles as myself are mocked in here and considered lunatics or stupidfor ages.

    Anyway if i offended or hurt anyone’s feelings I’m sorry
    Not intentional

    I was quite directly referring to strat and his common practice of using the words “mental illness” all the time.

    You’ve been here for a while and I’ve never found you to be straight up disrespectful so really, it isn’t. I’m just saying there’s a fine line between poking fun / discussing in a heated manner, and being absolutely unnecessarily offensive. It’s been a fucking year for everyone (and I’ll admit I’ve felt it incredibly hard because of my own personal stuff), so I’m just not feeling the casual use of shit like this.

  244. Z-man:
    The assumption is that anyone who follows the fortunes of this godforsaken franchise suffers from severe mental illness…Bruno is just saying no need to rub it in.

    Yeah, I mean, I’ll never deny we have to be a bit fucked up in the head to stay here overanalyzing random small moves from the most disappointing franchise in all leagues, American or not, let’s just revel in our misery like normal fucked up people lol.

  245. #Yeah, I mean, I’ll never deny we have to be a bit fucked up in the head to stay here overanalyzing random small moves from the most disappointing franchise in all leagues, American or not, let’s just revel in our misery like normal fucked up people lol.#

    I thought we had recently clarified that this was basically an alternative psychedelic group therapy that happens to talk about bball such as an existential movie based on a casual rom com but seems that you’ve missed that thread! lol

  246. As for what Clyde actually said…

    At one point in the first quarter, Kenny Albert asked Walt Clyde Frazier what he thought of the rumored trade for Derrick Rose. The following is a paraphrasing of Clyde’s response:

    “Uhhh…, I don’t know, Kenny, because Payton is playing well now, you have Quickley and Ntilikina …. I’m somewhat… surprised.”

    What was delicious was the really long, drawn out “Uhhh…” and various pauses as he scrambled for non-offensive wording (“surprised”).

  247. The fact that this comes on the heels of Thibs yanking RJ makes this even more troubling.

    I’m not really worried about RJ getting minutes, in fact dude is probably playing too many minutes as is. He’s second in the NBA in minutes played behind Julius Randle. He’s 17th in minutes per game.

    RJ is a horse and his conditioning is great but he is logging a lot of miles.

  248. These Hornets announcers might be the most annoying in the entire league, and that’s saying something.

  249. *** (okay smart folks – what’s the 12 and 35 all about?)***

    I’m kind of disappointed in you geo…

    12 x 35 = ___

  250. DRed:
    I did not expect LaMelo to be this good his first year.

    I didn’t expect him to be good at all, like a Lonzo version with lower basketball IQ, but I was very, very wrong. The kid is incredibly entertaining to watch and fearless when he has the ball, he does have future star written all over him. Never has that feeling of “does he belong on the court” that we’ve grown so used to seeing with the Knicks picks.

  251. In Charlotte they start their promising young PG in LaMelo Ball.

    Here in NY our coach trades for washed up Derrick Rose to take minutes away from IQ.

  252. Ntilakilla:
    In Charlotte they start their promising young PG in LaMelo Ball.

    Here in NY our coach trades for washed up Derrick Rose to take minutes away from IQ.

    Good grooming habits or not, DRose should not be taking minutes away from IQ.
    :-)

    So, Guitar Jimmy wants to make the playoffs this year, eh?

  253. *** (okay smart folks – what’s the 12 and 35 all about?)***

    I’m kind of disappointed in you geo…

    12 x 35 = ___

    wait a minute now donnie – are you saying the song is about getting high…i thought i had it figured out now, that it was about some cancel culture shit with rocks…fuck…

    oh yeah, i’m not that smart donnie…i literally gotta google like crazy most of the fun shit milo writes down…

    it’s funny, we all got our little crushes – jowles and milo were my first loves here at kb…

  254. Don’t let him snow you geo. Rainy Day Women #12 and 35 was written in 1966, 5 years before the alleged birth of 4-20.

  255. A couple of years after “Rainy Day Women,” Dylan also wrote “The Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest,” which also namechecks “four and twenty” (which, of course, is just a reference to “four and twenty blackbirds,” but I just thought it was funny in the context of 420 references).

    It’s funny, I always bought into the “A mother and daughter stopped by the studio one day to get out of the rain and Dylan just named it after them in a fit of pique” story, with the mother being 35 and the daughter 12, but I now realize that there’s no real proof behind that story, either.

  256. I was just looking at the lyrics to It’s alright ma (I’m only bleeding). Dylan is truly mind-blowing. And the lyrics are quite relevant to our current time…

  257. And Bob Dylan “inspired” what is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful sad songs of all time, Joan Baez’s Diamonds and Rust.
    Even when he wasn’t himself making gems, his presence was.

  258. Bruno Almeida: I didn’t expect him to be good at all, like a Lonzo version with lower basketball IQ, but I was very, very wrong. The kid is incredibly entertaining to watch and fearless when he has the ball, he does have future star written all over him. Never has that feeling of “does he belong on the court” that we’ve grown so used to seeing with the Knicks picks.

    Samer here man, I totally whiffed on Lamelo.

  259. ***Don’t let him snow you geo. Rainy Day Women #12 and 35 was written in 1966, 5 years before the alleged birth of 4-20.***

    Bob was, routinely, 5 years ahead of his time.

  260. ***Dylan also wrote “The Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest,” which also namechecks “four and twenty” (which, of course, is just a reference to “four and twenty blackbirds,” but I just thought it was funny in the context of 420 references).***

    So you’re suggesting that CSN’s 4 20 was actually about a dude turning 80 years old? Hogwash.

  261. Don’t let him snow you geo. Rainy Day Women #12 and 35 was written in 1966, 5 years before the alleged birth of 4-20.

    yeah right then why didn’t abe just say 87 years ago like a normal person

  262. ptmilo:
    Don’t let him snow you geo. Rainy Day Women #12 and 35 was written in 1966, 5 years before the alleged birth of 4-20.

    yeah right then why didn’t abe just say 87 years ago like a normal person

    drop the mike…its over

  263. The bad news is that we’ll probably have to wait until Friday for the dawn of the Derrick Rose 2.0 era

  264. I have taken my L on Lamelo. I am proud of how quickly I did. :-)

    One thing that was making me feel good about the FO was that they apparently affirmatively loved Lamelo and obviously they went after Quickley and made a point to take him in the 1st rather than 2nd.

    Didn’t want to give them much credit for that after passing on Halliburton but it showed something maybe for a little while there to be optimistic about. A few teams were rumored not to like Lamelo as I recall.

    The collage I was trying to piece together of Rose as a possibly forward thinking GM is now definitely torn and frayed.

    Also, I liked KG’s remarks about the modern NBA that I saw today. He basically said most of the guys from his era probably wouldn’t make it. Very refreshing from a member of the old guard and such a noted trash talker. Maybe he is angling for Shaq’s job.

  265. I chuckled a bit watching Draymond have his little Bargs moment at the end of the game, what the hell was he thinking?

  266. Superstar-level game from KP tonight…although MIN might be the worst team in the league until KAT gets back.

  267. Bruno Almeida:
    I chuckled a bit watching Draymond have his little Bargs moment at the end of the game, what the hell was he thinking?

    he thought spurs guy was going to foul him as they had a foul to give so he heaved up the shot but the guy pulled his hands back and never touched him…

  268. Jesus Bruno, haven’t thought of Diamonds and Rust in ages. I pissed off untold numbers of toothless bikers playing that on dive jukeboxes. Breathlessly sad.

    And the opening lines are perfect for the new DRose era:

    Well, I’ll be damned
    Here comes your ghost again
    (But that’s not unusual)

  269. Raven:
    Jesus Bruno, haven’t thought of Diamonds and Rust in ages. I pissed off untold numbers of toothless bikers playing that on dive jukeboxes. Breathlessly sad.

    And the opening lines are perfect for the new DRose era:

    Well, I’ll be damned
    Here comes your ghost again
    (But that’s not unusual)

    Just fitting. It’s hauntingly sad for me, a true bitter song in so many ways, but so beautiful at the same time.

  270. Without going back and clicking on the link, I just now got what the Outkast reference earlier must have been for. Haha. As much as I love Tangled Up In Blue, that is DEFINITELY the theme song for the Rose trade (if it’s what I think it is (and I’m sure it is)).

  271. I chuckled a bit watching Draymond have his little Bargs moment at the end of the game, what the hell was he thinking?

    Gotta give Kerr props for trying to take the blame. “It’s my fault. The Spurs don’t foul up three (and Green likely thought they were going to, which is why he tried to throw up the shot quickly, thinking they’d foul and maybe he’d get three free throws). I have to make that clearer to the players.” Nice try but, come on, dude.

  272. It’s a bit sad because it’s clear that Draymomd is trying his hardest to be the second star of the team, and he’s still so talented at passing, defending, rebounding, but he just can’t score. He’s actually shooting .189 from three this season. It’s insane to see how impactful he still even though he’s less than a 0 in terms of scoring.

  273. Guilty, at least in part, about Lamelo,
    his court vision and rebounding were never in doubt and I’ve always thought he’s better than his brother,
    but I’m really surprised that his commitment and shooting are this good so soon,
    I thought it would take a year or two to get there.

    I had a crush on Jason Williams so I’m fond with this type of passers…

  274. Add Zach Lowe (in a good podcast conversation with Ian Begley) to the national NBA guys who seem mostly fine with the trade, since he thinks our offense needs so much help beyond what Randle is doing. Zach’s also in favor of continuing to bring Quickley off the bench because he’s been one of the most uneven players in the league so far from night to night, which he says is par for the course from a rookie point guard.

  275. The difference between all these national writers defending the trade and us is that they assume Rose will help the offense. None of them are doing anything to support their assumption, though.

  276. About LaMelo and the draft, i’m with you, Bruno, and the others that wouldn’t draft him. I was even more far away, i thought he’d be a total bust (even if the passing was good). And then i’d pick Hayes instead of Hali, although by a very little margin and decision of the moment. Massive L here.
    Well, looking on the bright side, i would have been saved by the Pistons (they selected Hayes one pick before the Knicks) and would have taken Hali, so there’s that (at least i’m not so dumb as the Knicks FO).

  277. Bruno Almeida: It’s insane to see how impactful he still even though he’s less than a 0 in terms of scoring.

    So there’s a path for Frank to be an NBA player? LOL
    If the over/under for number of years Frank stays in the league was set at 6.5, who would take the under? I’m leaning towards the under, nowadays.

  278. There’s rumors about the Knicks trading Payton, and if that’s the case then replacing Payton with Rose wouldn’t be a bad move, maybe a meh move. But if we’ve added Rose not planning to ship out one of Payton and Rivers (both would be much better, but i stopped believing in that move), there’s no way those national writers will convince me it’s a good move. What we need is 3P shooting, not another guy that goes to the rim all the time, as for that we already have RJ, Randle, Payton, Mitch, Noel… man, what a dumb move.

  279. I’m not a fan of acquiring Rose, but it’s not a crazy move. Making the playoffs is a reasonable goal for an NBA team and giving up a 2nd round pick is a small price for him. Agree with it or not, the rationale for the move is easy enough to follow. The Knicks need offense more than defense, and Rose should provide some offensive punch. The Knicks may even be buying low. Even everyone here agrees Elfrid Payton needs fewer minutes and we never agree on anything.

    HOWEVER,
    KB differs from the national guys is the value of making the playoffs (I mean it would be fun even if it ill-advised) and the value of a marginally higher draft pick/lotto odds. We’ve discussed this ad nauseam, so I’ll leave it there.

    The other issue is everyone in NYC who doesn’t have the initials TT and a last name that almost rhymes with pizza dough hates Rose. He was one of our worst signings of the last decade. And that says something.

    Finally, assembling the good (but never great) Bulls team from a decade ago for the 4th time makes me roll my eyes. That’s 3x under Thibs & 1x under Guru Peyote Triangle. How’d that goink? Well we’re still paying Noah from the last time we tried it.

    More finally (call it a GHD timeloop), Rose is the type of empty calorie scorer Knicks management has loved for the past 2 decades.

    I’ll leave the moral objection for it’s own post because it deserves it and we’ll no doubt cover that topic again.

  280. I think a lot of the national writers naturally approach trades from a “who won?” kind of perspective because they’re looking at it in the context of analyzing it for both teams. And this trade is pretty terrible from Detroit’s perspective. They held out for a “lottery pick” for Rose at last year’s deadline, then ended up getting only a mediocre 2nd for him now, probably not even the best one we have available in this year’s draft. I guess from their perspective maybe the flier on DSJ is a positive, but in reality that’s a negative asset as well. So if you’re just looking at the trade from a value, which team did better kind of perspective, it’s reasonable to like this pretty well for the Knicks I think. Objections to the site on this trade aren’t really saying “we gave up too much”. They’re more like “why?” and “does this presage other bad things?” and “does this really mean we have to root for Derrick ****ing Rose again?.

  281. Objections to the site on this trade aren’t really saying “we gave up too much”.

    No, there have definitely been people who feel like giving up anything for Rose was too much — that the only circumstances under which he should be a Knick again is if we were paid to take him. Which I kind of agree with, even though it was never going to happen, since some contender would’ve given the Pistons a 2nd for him. I don’t want him here for a variety of reasons. I’m bringing up guys like Lowe and Partnow not to defend the trade, but just to note that it’s interesting that a number of smart, analytically-minded basketball minds are largely okay with the deal. But they also don’t have to root for the team that Rose now plays for.

  282. Z-man:
    Superstar-level game from KP tonight…although MIN might be the worst team in the league until KAT gets back.

    You are right about the absence of KAT helping KP look good. KP is not as bouncy as he was with the Knicks. In watching that great shootout vs. the Warriors, KP could not keep up defensively, a step behind most of the time. But last night he had 6 blocks. I’m guessing that on some nights those knees aren’t holding up well.

  283. National writers don’t have to watch the team every game and root for the team. (I mean honestly none of us really has to at this point either- all debts paid).

    It’s a mixture of moral, aesthetic and statistical disgust.

    Also, people can rationalize almost anything. Yeah, they are doing it in good faith but they are wrong.

  284. No, there have definitely been people who feel like giving up anything for Rose was too much — that the only circumstances under which he should be a Knick again is if we were paid to take him.

    I mean there’s always some of everything on this site but in the hundreds of posts about the trade now I think you’d struggle to dig up a full handful that are really quibbling about the price paid. The distinction I’m trying to make is between judging the trade on the axis of who it favors to swap Derrick Rose for DSJ and a 2nd round pick, which I think is the way most national writers approach the question (answer: probably the Knicks), and the question of whether that means this is a choice the Knicks should be making out of the full universe of options available to them (answer: for me, no) which is how most people here are looking at the issue.

    I mean take Partnow who you’ve cited a couple times. He disliked it for Detroit but the two most positive things he said about it from NY’s perspective as far as I can see are “On paper, Rose could help here [shot creation]. At least the version of Rose we saw the last two seasons” and “This is the second in-season Knicks move that is defensible in its own right but raises questions about process and influence on decisions.” I read him as seeing it as bad for Detroit but I don’t exactly get the sense that he’s saying this is what he would’ve done if he were NY. Ditto for Hollinger (even more explicitly) who you also cited up-thread.

  285. You are right about the absence of KAT helping KP look good. KP is not as bouncy as he was with the Knicks. In watching that great shootout vs. the Warriors, KP could not keep up defensively, a step behind most of the time. But last night he had 6 blocks. I’m guessing that on some nights those knees aren’t holding up well.

    His defense is more of a problem now.

    He’s a step slower. So they are targeting him for switches in the P&R. The question is how much of that is the added weight & muscle, how much is the surgeries slowing him down, and how much is just getting back in peak physical shape after the layoff and no camp.

    On offense he may actually be better.

    His 3p% in January was 28.6% and is now 41.9% in a few games in February. The truth is probably somewhere between the two, but I predicted he’d get off slow start shooting like he did last time off a long layoff (as do many other player coming off injuries). More important, his weakness has been in mid range creating off the dribble. He’s still bad at that, but they are finding him in spots in mid range where he’s more set and doesn’t have to put the ball on the floor to create. So his mid range game is improving. We’ll see if that can be sustained or whether defenses will adjust. The other thing I noticed is that he’s getting double teamed in the post a lot again (like in NY). He’s passing out of it better now than he did then, but he still doesn’t have the post moves and strength to finish. He has to improve on that and get stronger.

    The bottom line is that you can live with all the injuries slowing his development, but you can’t live with them taking a toll on his ability to roll to the basket quickly, get up and dunk lobs & OREBs, or defend the paint and stay in front of players well enough to at least not make him a target. We’ll know more in a few weeks.

  286. No, there have definitely been people who feel like giving up anything for Rose was too much — that the only circumstances under which he should be a Knick again is if we were paid to take him.

    The salaries between Rose and DSJr are close enough to not matter much. Rose is a very productive backup. DSjr was on his way to the G league. If you want to make substantial upgrade at similar salaries you have to give something up. The intrinsic value of the 39 pick (that’s approximately where it is now) is close to nil, but especially when we have 2 first rounders and another 2nd round pick.

    It was good deal for the Knicks in terms of “value”.

    The only question is wither you are a masochist that enjoys losing as much as possible every year for some theoretical draft benefit in the future or whether you are trying to get better now to compete for a playoff spot accelerate the development for the young players that comes from playoff experience and make yourself more attractive to free agents and potential trade targets now.

  287. National writers don’t watch every play of every meaningless game like the game-thread folks at KB do. They look at the value on paper, but largely have no idea what the likely “unintended consequences” may be. Clyde, on the other hand, who DOES watch every play of every meaningless game, was more attuned to the game-thread chorus…

  288. National writers are probably adhering to this simple equation:

    Derrick Rose > Elfrid Payton.

    If Elfrid Payton continues to get minutes, this trade will be an absolute failure because he is the worst point guard on the team and probably the worst player still in the rotation. Rose should replace Payton and Rivers should keep his minutes. If you go from getting .013 WS/48 production to .058 WS/48 production you’ll be marginally better for it. Is this a team that should be chasing marginal wins just because we’re locked into having 2 picks in the top 20 and 3 picks in the top 32? Probably not, but replacing Payton with Rose will make this team more watchable on offense, and maybe Derrick Rose gets Julius Randle to stop bringing the ball up court.

  289. The only question is wither you are a masochist that enjoys losing as much as possible every year for some theoretical draft benefit in the future or whether you are trying to get better now to compete for a playoff spot accelerate the development for the young players that comes from playoff experience and make yourself more attractive to free agents and potential trade targets now.

    Hmm, I dunno, I can think of some other questions:

    1) Do you enjoy when your favorite team employs credibly accused rapists?

    2) Do you enjoy watching Derrick Rose’s aesthetically hideous brand of basketball?

    3) Do you think 30 USG% players perhaps take touches away from other players you are both more invested in and prefer to watch?

    4) Is a .517 TS% at age 32 good or bad?

    5) What picked was used to draft Mitchell Robinson?

  290. Other things equal, national writers approving of Knicks trade is a welcome change. I do agree it’s an interesting divergence in treatment between here and there.

    I also wonder if KB hasn’t poured over the numbers a bit more closely than the national writers who have to get articles out ASAP (especially on Superbowl Sunday). Rose’s fg% from 0-3ft isn’t the first place most people would check and that number worries me.

    Alan: I’m bringing up guys like Lowe and Partnow not to defend the trade, but just to note that it’s interesting that a number of smart, analytically-minded basketball minds are largely okay with the deal.

    Alan, hope my last post didn’t come off as attacking your post. I meant it more as an explanation of why the KB & Nat’l guys differ. My writing style is naturally flippant and I probably comes off more aggressive than I intend at times. I think you make a good point.

  291. Hubert: The difference between all these national writers defending the trade and us is that they assume Rose will help the offense. None of them are doing anything to support their assumption, though.

    Exactly, none of them are ‘showing their work’ as far as Derrick Rose aiding the offense. The Knicks have the same shitty floor spacing and overall lack of talent as the Pistons. It’s not like Rose is coming into a better situation or a team that better fits his “skills”. Why are they assuming his play will improve? Thibs magic?

    I think the national press kills this trade if it’s made by the Mills regime (if he somehow kept his job). Leon Rose has a lot of shine and I think a bunch of writers are still in suck-up mode.

  292. My worry is exactly the “process and influence on decisions” stuff which to me encompasses “knock off effects on usage and minute allocations.” Those worries are very real and very genuine and if anything avid KP types should have a better handle on those than even the national writers. I personally don’t care that much about the 2 given up and obviously give zero f’s about DSJ.

  293. @Deeefense

    For someone who ostensibly prides themselves on seeing shades of gray and arriving at nuanced views based on detailed reports from (self-)vetted experts, you have an incredible tendency to try and put things into neat little boxes.

    Your de(ee)fense here is pretty laughable in how it runs contrary to a lot of your supposed values – is Is it because Rose still has some of that old man Phil smell wafting off of him? It seems like that has to be the unifying strand.

    “Rose is a very productive backup” – any support to back this up? Complete oversimplication given that (1) he’s scoring terribly this year (~51 TS), (2) he’s finishing terribly at the rim (think that might be a major flag for 32-y/o with a checkered injury history) and (3) he doesn’t offer much in terms of secondary skills.

    Either the intrinsic value of the 39th pick is close to nil (contrary to moves we literally just saw Leon pull off in the most recent draft), or it has at least enough trade value to net a “very productive backup” – which is it?

    So you can either dislike the Rose trade if you’re a masochist…what about if you don’t think it’s all that beneficial for RJ, Mitch, Randle to have another player that is a shaky shooter and really only provides value in the paint? Surprised that’s not a valid concern to someone who ostensibly values “fit” and “playing the right way” so highly – although the answer to this riddle is pretty stra(i)t-forward – it would mean you would have to admit internally that Rose’s basketball fit was terrible when Phil traded for him to put him next to Melo KP (noted ball-stoppers, def a good idea to put a shoot-first pg next to them).

  294. Diamonds and Rust (Baez’s version, please) reminds me of when I used to listen to Allison Steele…The Nightbird on WNEW-FM in bed at night. Such a viscerally somber song, and made more so by Steele’s unforgettable lead-in. She was a very, very special DJ, I only now learned that she died rather young.

  295. Most of the writers have said they don’t agree with the approach of pursuing the playoffs this year but putting that aside a 2nd for a potential minor upgrade isn’t an awful price to pay. That’s reasonable, and the first part is aligned with the KB consensus.

    A lot of differences when it comes to the second part boil down to whether you’re a fan of the New York Knicks or not. I’ve enjoyed watching Barrett and Quickley produce, now that will happen less. I’ve enjoyed the fact that our unexpected success has largely come at the hands of core pieces, now that’s less true. I’ve enjoyed the fact that we didn’t employ anyone who once said of consent “we men, you can assume,” now we do.

    These are all things that affect fans of the Knicks more than people who cover the NBA in general. I’ve said from the start the trade is more irksome than disastrous. It does have worrisome implications for our front office’s perspective on a number of things that could lead to disastrous moves later. NBA writers don’t have to worry about those, but fans do.

  296. My opinion is that an Orlando Magic-esque approach of pushing for that final 36-46-ish final seed in the shitty East is really fucking stupid. There was a time not too long ago in which I thought that was virtually axiomatic around here and I can’t remotely identify when or why it became a topic necessitating relitigation.

    There’s no doubt in my mind there will be a day in the not too distant future in which missing out on this lottery just to get to the playoffs with this band of mercs will be heavily rued by KB and the fanbase generally.

  297. My opinion is that an Orlando Magic-esque approach of pushing for that final 36-46-ish final seed in the shitty East is really fucking stupid. There was a time not too long ago in which I thought that was virtually axiomatic around here and I can’t remotely identify when or why it became a topic necessitating relitigation.

    People talk incredibly vaguely about benefits such a “run” holds because it’s really difficult to articulate anything tangible.

    What has the Magic losing in 5 games in the first round in consecutive years done for them? Did all of their young players come back from those experiences markedly better? Were free agents lining up to play for the Magic because uhhhhhhh respectability? Which free agents are we even trying to impress anyway?

    People are understandably excited about seeing a Knicks team that doesn’t totally suck. I am too! The reality of the situation, though, is that there are 19 teams with between 9-12 wins so we really aren’t doing anything that merits a change in long-term planning.

  298. There’s no doubt in my mind there will be a day in the not too distant future in which missing out on this lottery just to get to the playoffs with this band of mercs will be heavily rued by KB and the fanbase generally.

    Why you by the window?, what’s wrong daddy?

    I know what’s wrong with that crazy motherfucker
    He’s just stand by the goddamn window
    With that fucking AK all day
    You don’t work, you don’t fuck, you don’t eat
    You don’t do a goddamn thing

    I see death around the corner

    stop being so damn grim E…it’s only tuesday man :)

    Edit: hmmmm, just thought about it, pac was right, death wasn’t too far off for him…

    maybe you got a point E…

  299. Wasserman did a 2020 NBA redraft exercise, based on how the rookies have played so far. Now we get Quickley at 8 (Hali already off the board), and Saddiq Bey at 25. He has the Celtics taking Obi in the teens.

  300. In theory, I could be more into PLAYOFFS!!! if the games weren’t going to be at an empty Garden. I’ve been to some playoff games in 2012 and 2013 at the Garden, including the one 2012 win over the Heat, and they’re absolutely fantastic. So I think I get the appeal. Writ larger, there’s a chance I’d be more into the band of mercs if they were doing this at the usual Garden. The Garden would be going apeshit over IQ, no question about it.

  301. Haha, remember when the Magic traded Oladipo and Sabonis for one season of needle-mover Serge Ibaka?

    Oladipo at 2 is a bust. Aaron Gordon at 4 is a bust. Mario Hezonja at 5 is a bust. They gave up Sabonis for virtually nothing. Isaac at 6 looks like a bust. Bamba at 6 is a bust. They traded LAL’s Horton-Tucker for cash and Paul Reed, which they flipped for a 30-year-old James Ennis. I don’t know who Chuma Okeke is. And then Cole Anthony.

    It’s hard to find a franchise run harder into the ground than ORL, and competing every year for a 1st-round blowout is Exhibit A in that case.

  302. gotta switch up that sensory input – trick yourself in to believing what a Good Life it really is…

    i like all kinds of music, but, no question house music don’t allow for no time of sorrow or grief…

    Life is Thriving

  303. The debate around this trade isn’t whether we should move pieces, even ones of limited value, to get marginally better in the short term (spoiler alert: we shouldn’t), but whether this trade even helps us win (it doesn’t). That is the real crime of this trade, we are bringing in a player that will steal minutes from IQ, touches from RJ, bury Frank and probably Knox even deeper on the bench, make the Knicks both harder to watch and harder to root for, and at the end of the day it probably won’t even help us win games.

    Rose dominates the ball too much for a marginally efficient player, he doesn’t help with spacing (our main offensive issue), and he is terrible defensively. Even with rose-colored glasses and choosing to forget; the rape allegations, him abandoning the team, and his ugly play style, it is hard to see the real upside of this trade.

  304. It’s always possible that (a) it’s a small sample size; and/or (b) he’s been dogging it … but if Rose’s collapse in at-the-rim shooting, on-off ORat, and on-off overall numbers is real, then he’s cooked. The potential problem is magnified immensely in that if he is in fact cooked, it will take forever for Thibs to see/admit it, if in fact he ever really does.

  305. Yeah, if the Knicks traded this pick for a player who obviously made us better I would still disagree with the larger approach but I wouldn’t be terribly upset about it. An example might be someone like Jeff Teague.

    Instead we traded for someone who very well may make us worse (or at least not any better), is an enormous eye sore on both ends, and is one of the least rootable players in the league.

    It’s kind of amazing that the trade critics are the ones being asked to justify their position. The team didn’t improve, it’ll now be exponentially less fun to watch, and we paid for both of those things.

  306. TNFH and others, you’re doing a great job so I don’t have to write anything. Thanks.

    However, I’ll just add to your latest post that we also may be damaging the one single thing that I think EVERYONE on this site agrees is the #1 key to the season, which is young player development. And we paid for that, too!

  307. Oladipo at 2 is a bust. Aaron Gordon at 4 is a bust. Mario Hezonja at 5 is a bust. They gave up Sabonis for virtually nothing. Isaac at 6 looks like a bust. Bamba at 6 is a bust. They traded LAL’s Horton-Tucker for cash and Paul Reed, which they flipped for a 30-year-old James Ennis. I don’t know who Chuma Okeke is. And then Cole Anthony.

    It’s hard to find a franchise run harder into the ground than ORL, and competing every year for a 1st-round blowout is Exhibit A in that case.

    Funny, when I read this I thought “gee, having a bunch of top 8 lottery picks doesn’t guarantee success either.

    Guess its how you look at things, right?

  308. I just don’t think its a foregone conclusion that bringing in Rose is somehow damaging our young player’s future and it amazes me how lots of people say stuff like this with such conviction.

    Randle was a horrible signing according to many after last season. No one saw him busting out this year.

    Quickley was widely panned on this blog as a horrible pick. Those predictions turned out to be dead wrong (not to brag but I loved that pick…read the receipts! I only brag bc I get roasted a lot for my overly optimistic takes, so I’m gonna take a victory lap on that one!)

    RJ and Mitch aren’t affected by Rose at all as far as minutes go. Rose has had a down year but he’s also been playing for Detroit. If you look at their careers as whole there is no question Rose is much more talented than Elf. Elf could be traded (the rumors are out there). Rivers could lose all his minutes (rumors out there that he might get traded too), Maybe Quickley moves to the starting line up off ball with Elf (or with Rose) or maybe he’s going to take over the starting job, Elf gets shipped out and Rose is the back up.

    None of us actually know. I don’t mind the predictions or negative takes per say, but maybe hold off on making them with such conviction until he like, actually plays some games with us?

  309. Eh, don’t like the trade for all the same reasons, but I’ll wait to judge until the deadline. Seems possible we’re moving Payton and Rivers, which would make this make more sense.

  310. What has the Magic losing in 5 games in the first round in consecutive years done for them? Did all of their young players come back from those experiences markedly better? Were free agents lining up to play for the Magic because uhhhhhhh respectability? Which free agents are we even trying to impress anyway?

    People are understandably excited about seeing a Knicks team that doesn’t totally suck. I am too! The reality of the situation, though, is that there are 19 teams with between 9-12 wins so we really aren’t doing anything that merits a change in long-term planning.

    The Magic and this year’s Knicks are superficially the same, except for the part where we are located in NYC and not a non-FA destination like Orlando, and where they’ve basically never had significant cap space, and where we are at a significant surplus of picks and the Magic basically haven’t had that in the last 7 years. But both teams do play in the NBA and in the Eastern Conference.

    It feels very much like the sky is falling here but I don’t really see any “change in long-term planning” going on here. We traded Dennis Smith who we all wanted out of town and our 4th best draft pick in this coming draft. The most likely outcome for Derrick Rose is that he moves the needle an insignificant amount in either direction, although if Rose is healthy and can play like he did last season (where the Pistons were clearly better with him on the floor than off), he should be a significant upgrade in terms of shot creation. The most likely outcome for the #40something pick is also an insignificant needle-mover.

    I don’t know, I have a hard time with the sky is falling this proves Thibs is only looking at today’s game and Leon Rose is his enabler conclusion from this single move.

    We still have $17MM in cap space or something like that. My guess is we still weaponize that to get future assets or a more significant player on the cheap.

  311. Yeah, if the Knicks traded this pick for a player who obviously made us better I would still disagree with the larger approach but I wouldn’t be terribly upset about it. An example might be someone like Jeff Teague.

    The Jeff Teague who has a 44 TS% this season? The Jeff Teague that has been worse than Rose on BPM each of the last 3 seasons? Am I missing something here? I’m thinking more and more that part of the national vs. knickerblogger split on this is knickerblogger consensus is placing way too much weight on how bad Rose was when he was a Knick and not nearly enough weight on him being a very good to excellent backup PG the last couple years. Even if you place full weight on Rose’s poor play this year relative to his last two years he’s still been pretty obviously better than either Elf or Rivers this season.

  312. In Orlando’s defense – they’ve had terrible injury luck. Bamba has been out forever since COVID (not that that wasn’t a terrible use of a lottery pick when they already had Vucevic at the most replaceable position on the floor), Isaac can’t stay healthy but has been very promising when on the floor, and while Fultz wasn’t great in the 8 games he played before the ACL, I think it’s clear the arrow was pointing up on him.

    They’ve also had terrible draft luck. Their best pick was #2 in 2013 (Oladipo) – maybe one of the worst drafts ever in terms of what the top 10 did (obviously Giannis and Gobert came from that draft). Then in 2014 they get the #4 pick, miss Embiid by one pick – also a pretty terrible draft. In 2015 they get the #5 pick and apparently loved Porzingis but missed out on him by 1 pick. They certainly weren’t trying to make the #8 seed in those years.

  313. It’s going to be really interesting what we think about Randle in 20 games. Two things have absolutely popped. His assist rate and his 3P%. He’s gone from 16% to 28% and from 28% to 40% from three. A lot of other numbers, rebounds, usage, 2pt fg%, look pretty similar.

    I am really curious to see what he does for the next third of the season and how it will affect the narrative around him.

    If I had to choose the over/under on this three point shooting for the next 20 games set halfway between last year and this year at 34% I’d take the over but it would be pretty close.

  314. “One way around that would be to trade another one of the veterans at the position, and at least one team in playoff contention has tested the waters of a Payton trade”, reports Ian Begley of SNY.TV.

    that’s hilarious…I think all but 3 teams in the league are in playoff contention….

  315. “Elf could be traded (the rumors are out there). Rivers could lose all his minutes (rumors out there that he might get traded too), Maybe Quickley moves to the starting line up off ball with Elf (or with Rose) or maybe he’s going to take over the starting job, Elf gets shipped out and Rose is the back up.”

    Yes. Outside of the fact that I really hate watching Rose’s game, there is definitely a non-zero chance that this could work out ‘not completely badly.’ But if Quickly wasn’t starting before, I don’t see the reason Thibs would start him now. And right now Elf is still here. (As is Rivers.) So IQ is now the third-string point guard, and depending on how you look at it, the third- or fourth-string shooting guard. It’d be great if this is the first move in a four-dimensional chess game, but until that proves true this gets a resounding F- (optics F, aesthetics F, fills a need F, development F) from me.

  316. Well, from other pov, if they ship out Payton and Rivers, and DRose fell off a cliff, maybe at the end of the season we’ll be cheering this trade and the great tank-commander DRose that brought us Jalen Suggs. So there’s that.
    I just don’t understand why can’t the Knicks stay still and do nothing, when things are going according to plan (even Team Tank was praising this season and how fun the games were).

  317. I just think its hilarious that Knicks fans…fans of a team that was an 8th seed and beat the #1 seed on its way to the NBA finals, would dismiss being an 8th seed. Crazy shit happens sometimes. If we’re the 8th seed and we get swept, sure it seems pointless. But what if we’re the 8th seed and go on some crazy run, win the series and then somehow end up in the ECF? Crazier shit happens in sports ALL OF THE TIME.

    And the 4th seed is currently 12-10. The East is so tight beyond the top 3 with a BUNCH of mediocre teams. People throw out the 8th seed as a way to dismiss a team trying to make the playoffs instead of tanking. But we could easily be the 7th, 6th, 5th or even 4th seed! Are you gonna tell me if we end up being the 5th seed and win the first round series, that it won’t be good for our franchise? When we could end up with a top 10 pick because of Dallas?

    We found Mitch and Quickley later in the draft. I don’t have the time to do all the research but the NBA is full of great players picked out of the top 10, top 15 even. To me its the arrogance and self assuredness of everyone who thinks making the playoffs is somehow bad for our team. When was the last time Utah picked in the top 5?

  318. #Fuckin’ Priest does a great Diamonds and Rust from UNLEASHED IN THE EAST.#

    Unleashed in the East is my favourite album ever.
    Own it on Vinyl from the mid80s, know by heart every second and every instrument and chunk it up from start to finish whenever i put it on.
    Sinner and Victim of Changes are my personal faves but the whole album gets my highest rating.
    Absolute Scorcher!

  319. ***”Oladipo at 2 is a bust. Aaron Gordon at 4 is a bust. Mario Hezonja at 5 is a bust. They gave up Sabonis for virtually nothing. Isaac at 6 looks like a bust. Bamba at 6 is a bust. They traded LAL’s Horton-Tucker for cash and Paul Reed, which they flipped for a 30-year-old James Ennis. I don’t know who Chuma Okeke is. And then Cole Anthony.”***

    Jonathan Isaac is a bust? Mo Bamba is a bust?

    If these guys were Knicks we’d be spewing copious amounts of virtual ink extolling their per-minute stats as 22 year olds. If we’d had the #6 pick in those drafts instead of the #8 and #9 respectively, and took those two, we’d be on the fast track to sustained relevance. (The only blight on Isaac is that he didn’t take a knee during the anthem last year, leading antifa to remove it. But he’ll get it back and will go back to being pretty awesome with it).

    I mean, is there really anybody on the Knicks current roster that we WOULDN’T trade for Jonathan Isaac? And Bamba could still turn out better than anybody we have, so…

  320. The Magic and this year’s Knicks are superficially the same, except for the part where we are located in NYC and not a non-FA destination like Orlando, and where they’ve basically never had significant cap space, and where we are at a significant surplus of picks and the Magic basically haven’t had that in the last 7 years. But both teams do play in the NBA and in the Eastern Conference.

    So the idea is Derrick Rose is going to attract free agents? I guess we’re just running back the rationalizations from Phil Jackson’s Derrick Rose trade huh. Anyway, which free agents does Derrick Rose make it more likely we sign? Why does he have this effect?

    The Jeff Teague who has a 44 TS% this season? The Jeff Teague that has been worse than Rose on BPM each of the last 3 seasons? Am I missing something here?

    Again this is not the kind of trade I would make period, but Teague would at least fill our very real need for a point guard who can shoot. He also isn’t a chucker who would take opportunities from Barrett and Quickley.

    We found Mitch and Quickley later in the draft.

    It’s almost as if even late picks can be useful and shouldn’t be traded for bad players with a 0% chance of being on the next good Knicks team.

  321. If Phil Jackson acquired you at one time that gives you a lifetime pass because Phil has forgotten more about basketball than anybody in the world has ever known and God don’t make mistakes

  322. Jonathan Isaac is a bust? Mo Bamba is a bust?

    Isaac will have played 136 of 309 possible games across his rookie contract and now they owe him $67M over the next four years. He is a very, very good defensive player when he is healthy, which is almost never. He’s the best player that the Magic have drafted in that time, and he’s still a shit offensive player. And he never plays. So…?

    Are we really debating Mo Bamba right now? The guy who’s been jettisoned by the lowly Magic to the tune of 9 games and 59 MP over the course of this season?

    If these guys were Knicks we’d be spewing copious amounts of virtual ink extolling their per-minute stats as 22 year olds. If we’d had the #6 pick in those drafts instead of the #8 and #9 respectively, and took those two, we’d be on the fast track to sustained relevance.

    I feel like you’re trolling me.

    I mean, is there really anybody on the Knicks current roster that we WOULDN’T trade for Jonathan Isaac?

    You are definitely trolling.

    And Bamba could still turn out better than anybody we have, so…

    Yeah, and so could Frank Ntilikina. You fuckin’ troll…

  323. swiftandabundant: Funny, when I read this I thought “gee, having a bunch of top 8 lottery picks doesn’t guarantee success either.

    Guess its how you look at things, right?

    Cleveland picked Kyrie, Waiters, Bennett and Wiggins in successive years (1, 4, 1, 1) and only got bailed out because LeBron had survivor’s guilt. If LeBron doesn’t come back, Kyrie walks in free agency and they’ve lit four consecutive high lottery picks on fire.

    No one has ever, EVER made the argument that picking high guarantees success. Picking high guarantees that you get to choose a player before other teams can. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.

  324. I always enjoy the “high draft picks don’t guarantee success” squad. Yeah, we all know that but considering this team has prioritized trades and free agency over high draft picks for the past 20 years could we maybe give high draft picks a shot?

  325. Quickley was widely panned on this blog as a horrible pick.

    I think the issues were about nepotism and asset management, no? I don’t feel like going back to the thread to relive the Knicks picking Toppin over Hali.

  326. “The Magic missed Embiid by one pick and then missed Porzingis by one pick the next year” is an argument to not do things like the Magic did. Who are the Knicks going to miss on by one or two picks this year? Probably someone very good.

    “The Knicks need another lottery pick for their rebuild.” Pretty non-controversial statement when it’s just laid out that way. Considered axiomatic going into this season. What we’re seeing now isn’t even close to running away from the axiom a mere 25 games into a fluky, still strange COVID season.

  327. I always enjoy the “high draft picks don’t guarantee success” squad. Yeah, we all know that but considering this team has prioritized trades and free agency over high draft picks for the past 20 years could we maybe give high draft picks a shot?

    They tanked once in the past 20 seasons and they got RJ Barrett for it, and they promptly said, “That’s enough of that!”

  328. Just for fun, Hardwood Houdini (I know…I know…) has a couple of recommended Celtics-Knicks trades.

    1st: Payton to the Celts for 2021 and 2022 Celtics 2nd round picks and Romeo Langford (expiring).

    2nd, the blockbuster: Payton and Randle to the Celts for two first round picks — their own 2021 and 2023 (lottery protected), Romeo Langford and Carsen Edwards.

    Note that all those picks will likely be late ones.

    Just for fun.

  329. Three months ago Randle could be traded for a bag of beans 2 gyros pita and an untradeable albatros contract.
    After two months of Not Tanking he has actual value.
    The side effects of playing…the right way.
    Turning your garbage into Art.

  330. oh yeah, finally started in on The Expanse – really love the premise…one of my very favorite books of all time is: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

    no question that’s the goal – get to the outer rim…not sure we’d make it there though in the next few hundred years, maybe…

    it’s funny, whenever you see a sci-fi movie depicting the future – they are usually way off on the timeline to achieve some of the more amazing technological advances…

    yes, i know, the S-A1will be flying overhead any day now…

    just glancing at season reviews, looks like the series really picks up steam after season 1…

    thomas jane though…really…i mostly remember him from that one punisher movie…not to speak bad of his acting ability, i’m sure he’s won a bunch of awards for his work at some point…but, thomas jane, really…

    to be honest, a few episodes in and that’s my general view of a lot of the actors in the show…i do though like the story a bunch (a whole lot better than what The Mandalorian has had to offer)…

  331. Jane’s the best actor on The Expanse in the early going. In general, if you’re watching Expanse for the characterization or the acting, you’d best move on to something else. Steven Strait, who plays Holden, is pretty terrible. But the sci-fi parts can be really good, and the show picks up a lot once a lot of the stories start intersecting late in season 1.

  332. Jane’s the best actor on The Expanse in the early going. In general, if you’re watching Expanse for the characterization or the acting, you’d best move on to something else. Steven Strait, who plays Holden, is pretty terrible. But the sci-fi parts can be really good, and the show picks up a lot once a lot of the stories start intersecting late in season 1.

    Yeah, that’s why I stopped watching it. Jane stood out way too much and I’m not even a big Jane fan.

  333. Derrick Rose will likely come off the bench for the Knicks when he becomes available to play.— Mike Vorkunov (@MikeVorkunov) February 9, 2021

    At least for now, Elfrid Payton didn’t hear no bell.

    This rotation is gonna be a mess for a while.

  334. Steven Strait, who plays Holden, is pretty terrible.

    ha, it’s early yet (about 3 episodes in) – so, i didn’t want to jump to any quick decisions on steven strait…but, yeah he’s a little sketchy in front of the camera too…

    hmmm, i wonder if that’s more on the actor or director…

  335. geo: ha, it’s early yet (about 3 episodes in) – so, i didn’t want to jump to any quick decisions on steven strait…but, yeah he’s a little sketchy in front of the camera too…

    hmmm, i wonder if that’s more on the actor or director…

    to me…he was the one real downside …otherwise I really enjoyed all the seasons and seems like the CGI really improved once Amazon got a hold of it…

    I think I saw where Strait was like an executive producer or producer…maybe that was one of the perks…slotting yourself in as the lead…he had a reduced role in the last season which was another benefit…

  336. Knew Your Nicks: Three months ago Randle could be traded for a bag of beans 2 gyros pita and an untradeable albatros contract.
    After two months of Not Tanking he has actual value.
    The side effects of playing…the right way.
    Turning your garbage into Art.

    That’s one random dude just talking about trading for Randle. He’s not even reporting on rumors or anything.

    Alan: Steven Strait, who plays Holden, is pretty terrible.

    Pretty terrible? That’s being generous. He’s about as good an actor as my dog when he tries to convince me it wasn’t him that knocked over the garbage.

  337. #That’s one random dude just talking about trading for Randle. He’s not even reporting on rumors or anything.#

    I’m not talking about him.
    I can already sense Randle’s value in my veins.
    It’s happening.
    His numbers don’t lie and Team’s Wins and Game back it up.

  338. In defense of Strait, he’s playing a brooding, humorless Byronic hero sort of character. I have no idea if that character is that way in the books, as I’ve not read them. I think he’s okay given the role, and I’d imagine that the ladies are just fine with his acting. I know my wife is.
    :-)

    I generally like the show, though some of the sudden plot jumps are a bit annoying. And this past season, I found the whole subplot with the parents manipulating and competing for their son (I’m trying to be a bit vague and avoid spoilers here) tedious and overly long.

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