Knicks Morning News (2025.05.24)

Thankfully i fell asleep despite putting a 03.00am alarm clock….
Unfortunately watched it early in the morning wo knowing….

Biggest Concerns:
•They score MUCH easier than us which is a recipe for a sooner or later collapse

•They’re better conditioned than us

•”all for one and one for all” spirit ain’t present. Body Language ain’t great

Tomorrow will be a good day to be a Knicks fan. Today, I am licking my wounds.

Yeah, the body language was bad. In the 4th they looked scared and disjointed.

I wonder what happened to Hart. I don’t remember him this bad in an important game.

The Pacers beat the Bucks in 5 without Lillard, they are lucky!

They beat the Cavs in 5 with without Garland and Mobley in one of those games, they are sooo lucky!

They go up 2-0 on the Knicks without Shamet and Wright, this team is blessed.

Slow Saturday..

Here are the biggest issues

Thibs – his constant love for a starting lineup that isn’t good. After Mitch bailed the starters out of yet another terrible start to the game and the team was up at half, he goes right back to the starters to start the 3rd and they do exactly what was expected. Maybe don’t have Mitch and Deuce burn energy trying to bail out the starters you constantly let put the team in a hole. How hard is it to try a different lineup to start a game..

It has now reached the National media

Tom Thibodeau’s dogmatic commitment to his starting lineup might cost the Knicks a trip to the NBA Finals
New York’s starters have been miserable all postseason
Sam Quinn

By Sam Quinn

No lineup in basketball has played more than the starting five for the New York Knicks. The group of Jalen Brunson, Josh Hart, Mikal Bridges, OG Anunoby and Karl-Anthony Towns played 940 minutes during the regular season, and only two other lineups played even half as many minutes. It’s a Tom Thibodeau cliché at this point. No coach in the NBA clings as desperately to his best players as Thibodeau does.

He’s been a head coach for 12 full seasons and one of his players has led the NBA in minutes per game in four of them. Even when they don’t, several are often near the top of their list. His 2018 Timberwolves starters also led all NBA lineups in total minutes. This is perhaps his defining trait as a coach.

It’s also probably going to cost him his first trip to the NBA Finals.

Almost every lineup the Knicks are putting on the floor this postseason is working. Of the 18 most-used lineups New York has thrown out there in the playoffs, 12 have a positive point-differential and a 13th is neutral. Of the five negatives, three have only been outscored by single digits. A fourth has only played 11 minutes.

But the fifth is by far the most-used, and — based on the first two paragraphs — you probably know which group I’m talking about. New York’s starters have played 308 minutes in the postseason and been outscored by 50 points.

This is basically statistically impossible. The last lineup to go minus-50 or worse was Oklahoma City’s starting lineup in the Orlando bubble back in 2020. Lineup data has been tracked since 2008, and since then only seven lineups besides New York’s starters have reached the minus-50 threshold in a single postseason. Of those groups, only one other — the starters for the 2018-19 Portland Trail Blazers — played more than 200 minutes within that postseason. There’s an easy logic to that fact. Generally speaking, if a lineup is playing that badly in the postseason, the team is smart enough to stop using it. If they aren’t, they’re just eliminated before they can rack up lofty minutes or negative plus-minus totals.

That’s what’s so maddening here. Every other lineup the Knicks are using is working. But they keep going back to a group that isn’t, and hasn’t for quite some time. New York’s starters dominated December with a plus-63 point-differential in 241 minutes. Otherwise, the group has been pedestrian at best, not going a single month with a better point-differential than plus-15. Entering the Eastern Conference finals, it had been outscored by double digits in four of New York’s first 12 playoff games.

In Game 1 of the Pacers series, New York won the minutes it played with at least one reserve in the game by 13 points. The Knicks lost the game by three points because the starters went minus-16. Before Game 2, Thibodeau said that “everything is always on the table” when it comes to lineup changes.

He proceeded to stick with the same group for Game 2. It played the first seven minutes and 18 seconds of Game 1 and was outscored by eight points. The lineups featuring at least one non-starter proceeded to build a three-point halftime lead. Thibodeau went back to the starters at the beginning of the third quarter and gave them seven minutes and 42 seconds of playing time. That three-point halftime lead became a two-point deficit.

Thibodeau finally seemed to learn his lesson from there, sticking with lineups featuring at least one reserve the rest of the way. The damage was done. Through two games, the Knicks have won the minutes they’ve played without their starting lineup on the floor by 21 points. They’re trailing 2-0 in the series because Thibodeau has refused to make a change.

When Mikal Bridges was asked about the starters’ struggles following Game 2, he explained that he felt that “maybe we’re just playing too soft at the beginning of the halves.” That is an understatement. This lineup can’t stop a nosebleed. Its 117.6 defensive rating in the playoffs would rank 26th in the NBA during the regular season.

That’s part of what’s so befuddling. Thibodeau is a defensive-minded coach. The two reserves New York has leaned on all postseason, Miles McBride and Mitchell Robinson, are playing great defensively this postseason. Indiana’s offense works in part because everybody can handle the ball. Hart, while a strong help-defender, does not generate as much pressure on the ball as McBride does. He’s also guarded less on the perimeter, clogging the paint for Towns and Brunson. Hart is an incredibly important player for New York both overall and in this series. It has become painfully obvious during this postseason, however, that he is not best-utilized playing alongside New York’s other starters. His energy is just more powerful off of the bench.

If McBride doesn’t join the starting lineup, Robinson probably should. Aside from providing necessary rim-protection, New York’s major advantage in this series is rebounding. The Pacers ranked 28th in rebounding rate during the season. When Robinson has been on the floor in this series, the Knicks are pulling in 58.8% of available rebounds. That falls to 50.5% when he sits. The Pacers have been the better team in a number of ways in this series. If the Knicks can’t press the advantages they do have, they can’t win four out of five games to salvage the series.

By bringing Robinson off of the bench, Thibodeau is limiting how many effective minutes he can play. Robinson played 29 minutes in Game 2, the most he’s played all postseason. But because those minutes came off of the bench, they basically all had to come in succession. Robinson entered Game 1 with 5:19 remaining in the first half and left with 1:42 remaining in the second quarter. That’s 16 consecutive minutes of game time for someone who didn’t debut this season until the end of February and isn’t used to those type of minutes to begin with. He isn’t conditioned to play that many minutes in a row.

Sure enough, he wore down. New York won the Robinson minutes by 13 in the first half, but lost them by seven in the second. If Robinson were starting, Thibodeau could at least find him more rest between these lengthy stints.

This doesn’t even need to be a matter of players needing to get substantially more or fewer minutes. It’s the alignment that matters so much. All five Knicks starters are critical for different reasons. As a group, they just don’t work as well as any other combination alongside either Robinson or McBride. But even when Thibodeau finds units that work, he isn’t sticking with them. The Knicks lost the nine minutes Brunson rested by nine points in Game 2. In Game 1, the Brunson-less lineup of Towns, Anunoby, Hart, Robinson and McBride outscored the Pacers by 11 points. Yet Thibodeau didn’t even use it in Game 2 for reasons that remain unclear.

In most cases, judging coaches so overtly is unfair. A lot of what they do is invisible, and that can blow the visible components of their job out of proportion. A single lineup decision in a single game rarely warrants this degree of scrutiny. But this isn’t just a single decision in a single game. There are months of data at this point screaming that New York’s starting five is not working. It has been the single dominant storyline of their postseason. Fans have been begging him to make a change, and if he had, the Knicks might be two wins away from the Finals right now.

Instead, they’re two losses away from elimination with three road games in this series still ahead of them. Knowing which players to put on the court is about as straightforward a measure of coaching quality as exists in this sport. Nothing else matters if you’re using the wrong players. And in that regard, Thibodeau is almost empirically coaching the Knicks out of this series.

Frank Barrett
@FrankBarrett119
After Game 2, the Knicks’ starting lineup is officially the worst most played lineup of ANY conference finalist since 2008 at -9.5 per 100 possessions

Great stuff

2- Towns- you’re not going to the mountain top with this guy as your back line defender. He is so bad on defense and most times just lost. He has zero idea what to do on that end. He either needs to be the power forward and play next to Mitch or be a trade chip.

3- Hart. His issue boils down to the coaches reliance on him. Hart is to easy to take out of the game and his effect on the team is huge. The opposing team never guards the guy. His defender is basically a roaming defender on the court. His rebounding doesn’t make up for how he kills the team otherwise. Make this guy a 6th man

* if you want to after OG for his defense on Siakim last night sure, but the 3 above to me are the biggest issues.

It was a terrible loss, but we’ll see where we stand after four games. If the Knicks win the next two, you wouldn’t think the series was over, right? So let’s see if they can do that.

That’s a pretty bad way to start a series.

Of those groups, only one other — the starters for the 2018-19 Portland Trail Blazers — played more than 200 minutes within that postseason.

And IIRC that group was kicking ass for two rounds and then got steamrolled by the Golden State Warriors, accumulating all their negative point differential at the end of a good run. So not really comparable at all.

If you play a true 5-out lineup with KAT and Deuce on and Hart off, you can deploy it situationally as an offensive superweapon to end games early if you’re hot enough from 3. Boston style.

But we don’t.

If you play a true 5-out lineup with KAT and Deuce on

I will say in defense of KAT on offense with the Knicks is that the refusal to get him into 5 out lineups on offense has been a failure. All I heard was the Knicks will be playing more 5 out. Why not maximize the guy on the side of the floor he’s elite at…

This team managed to take all the joy away from the first ECF in 25 years, and I fucking hate them for that.

Why not maximize the guy on the side of the floor he’s elite at…

What’s maddening is that it’s been 90 games and it’s barely been even tried. Not even dabbled with really.

I’m still excited for game 3.

If we start Mitch and swap Payne for Delon it could change the series. The starters would have an answer for Siakim and a bench unit of Hart, Deuce, Delon brings a lot to the table.

Obviously these are both defensive improvements and you would think Thibs would like that, but keep in mind he’s not really a defense-first coach. He’s a do-the-same-thing-again-first coach. His love of defense does not eclipse his dislike of change.

The Cam Payne thing is actually worse than sticking with the starters. There was just no excuse for those 4Q minutes.

i also can’t believe Cam Payne played serious minutes in a critical 4th quarter.

All I heard was the Knicks will be playing more 5 out. Why not maximize the guy on the side of the floor he’s elite at…

Because Thibs can’t coach that and doesn’t want to coach that. They’ve now gone from a top-2 offense through like a third of the season to the inevitable Thibs reversion to Moneyball as the other teams adjusted and he couldn’t counter.

Death, taxes, Thibs reverting to Moneyball — the irresistible trinity of life’s certainties.

so nice to have our expectations readjusted…

thanks for sharing that article well educated…

too funny, what’s happening seems very obvious to everyone except the coach…

hopefully he’s forced to make a change in game 3…

oh well, at least we made it to the conference finals, and then got knocked out by the same team 2 years in a row…

the pacers are just toying with us and the bucks now the last couple of seasons…

Even my mother was commenting on the coaching this morning. It’s so obvious

It def feels like series is over but this team bounces back from adversity in odd ways so we will see.

It def feels like series is over but this team bounces back from adversity in odd ways so we will see.

If the Knicks had won this in 5, no one would have been shocked, right? So they just need to win the next two in Indy. If they do, it’s a whole new series.

I’m still excited for game 3.

If we start Mitch and swap Payne for Delon it could change the series. The starters would have an answer for Siakim and a bench unit of Hart, Deuce, Delon brings a lot to the table.

Sorry but this doesn’t make sense. You’re excited for game 3 because maybe Thibs will do something his entire career shows he’s definitely not going to do?

Even if he does it’s a day late and a buck short. We’d need to win 4 of 5 games eith three on the road.

It’s not Pags doomerism to say let’s be real: Thibs has lost us the series.

That three-point halftime lead became a two-point deficit.

Thibodeau finally seemed to learn his lesson from there, sticking with lineups featuring at least one reserve the rest of the way. The damage was done.

If the simple solution is to add either Deuce or Mitch to the starting lineup, then why did doing that not overcome a two point deficit?

The real change Thibs should be making is to try to turbo-charge the offense to outscore the Pacers but he has no ability to do that.

This is an offense-first roster with two ultra-elite offensive guys, both of whom had top-15 seasons. Thibs simply has no ability to maximize that, which means if they intend to run this back, this isn’t the place for him.

He should be pushing the pace but he can’t do that because he has no ability to develop useful depth to keep guys fresh and rested.

Knicks and Pacers had an exactly-equal DRat in the regular season and the Knicks actually were two points/100 better in ORat. Pacers upcharged their offense in the playoffs — up something like 6/100 versus the league — Knicks downcharged theirs. End of story.

Just jumping on to make a point I might be wrong about, but I’m not convinced Delon is our bench super weapon. He played really good defense for some of his limited time during the regular season, but I did not see great foot speed on the guy. I’m all for trying him situationally, but I see him being destroyed by hyper waterbug TJ, so I would be hesitant to play him then.

Not that playing him at all is in the mix except for maybe one set play on D late in the game. But just sayin’.

The problem with Thibs is he didn’t play someone like Wright enough in the regular season to know if he could be useful in the playoffs.

The problem with this roster is that every lineup has things that an elite team can target on one end or the other.

We can certainly debate the “eliteness” of Indiana…but my read is that they are very well constructed and coached to exploit our weaknesses, which will exist no matter what lineup we throw out there.

They have weaknesses too, and we can exploit those. But their margin for error seems greater than ours, and losing game 1 the way we did made that margin for error even tighter…so last night became a must win. And they ourplayed us, starting with Siakam, who was pretty much unstoppable without being doubled, and that opened things up for everyone else.

No one is saying Delon is a super secret bench weapon. But you can get useful bench minutes out of him that aren’t can Payne. In a game of one or two possessions that matters. Why is that not obvious

This is an offense-first roster with two ultra-elite offensive guys, both of whom had top-15 seasons. Thibs simply has no ability to maximize that, which means if they intend to run this back, this isn’t the place for him.

It’s only 2 games, but the offense has not been the problem. The team has a 122 ORTG against Indiana, the problem is the Pacers have been even better, or our defense has sucked, or some combination.

At this point I’m going to choose to believe that this series doesn’t start until the home team wins a game

JollyRoger, not arguing that point. Mine was just maybe don’t play him against TJ. He’d probably do fine against the others.

And agree with DRed there.

But not sure about Z-Man. The argument being made is we actually have lineups that are possibly elite, but we don’t play them very much so who the hell knows, really.

I do think our holes are deeper and wider than theirs (e.g., KAT’s defense, Mitch’s free throws). But I also think there are ways to minimize them that aren’t being used. I won’t belabor the point as others are doing better than I would.

This team seems need extreme adversity to play its best. We’re not there yet. They need to lose Game 3 and stare into the abyss. Then do the impossible and win 4 straight.

KAT likes to say “I’m not here to read history, I’m here to make it.” Well, that would be historical.

And fitting for a team whose only real identity under Thibs has been dogged stubbornness, grit, and clutch hero balL

All the lineup data is skewed because the starters pace themselves because they know they’re going to be asked to play absurd minutes. Bridges has pretty much admitted it out loud. Another tell is the perpetually shit transition defense.

Well, that was bad, but not as horrible as Game 1 at least! Right?

The French Open is starting tomorrow and I know there are some tennis fans around these parts.

If you’re keen, check out The Upset Game (upsetgame.com). I built this over the past year or so; it’s a free, just-for-fun thing with no commercial aspirations but I’m trying to slowly grow the community, see how it plays with more than 10 people, etc.

Basically, you fill out a bracket and pick your favorite upsets – earning increasingly more points for later round picks. So if you want to play, you have < 24 hours before Round 1 of RG begins.

Let me know if you decide to play by joining our Substack. Thanks for indulging my shameless self-promotion! Knicks in 6!

Have you guys noticed that 99% of all of the coaches that have ever coached in this league are bad? Almost seems to defy logic.

We can talk about matchups and lineups forever, but the Pacers have no player like Mitchell Robinson.

The foul shooting is an issue, but Thibs needs to maximize his court time when the Knicks aren’t in the bonus. He’s been our second best player (maybe best player?) this series, and is a total game changer when he’s out there.

Look at the forest, not just the trees. You are up by 3 at the break, and score 57 points in the second half. Still, you lose by 5. Where is the problem? Offense or defense?

Need to move on from Thibs:

1/ ignores obvious lineup data, a seasons worth
2/ doesn’t make any in game adjustments (really trot out that same dumb lineup to start the Q3)
3/ his philosophy / strengths are unclear at best and inconsistent at worst. Rides the starters all season then plays Cam Payne in the 4Q in a must win game. Watches Cam shit the bed, calls timeout, and makes no like up changes. “Defense first” coach who can’t hold Mikhal accountable to fighting over screens and not allowing Brunson to guard their strongest players with even the slightest of screens. Can’t hold KaT accountable to being at the level at the 3 point line and to put his hands up, before the shot, when guarding a smaller player.
4/ offensive sets are non existent – we need a three to tie, no play called let’s just see what happens. No real offensive identity beyond let brunson cook and let’s hope Kat hits threes. Ball movement is player dependent not system dependent.

Some coaches are what you need to take you from bad to good (thanks Thibs) but not good to great. Mark Jackson was a good coach for the Warriors, they were finally winning but they brought in Kerr to push for a championship, we need to do the same, no matter what happens next, even if we miraculously beat the Pacers and then get beat down by the Thunder

It was a terrible loss, but we’ll see where we stand after four games. If the Knicks win the next two, you wouldn’t think the series was over, right? So let’s see if they can do that.

I’m with Brian, i still believe in our team. We have flaws, and there’s no need to act surprised about it when some team exposes our flaws, we just need to get better at minimizing those flaws. And certainly hope for Indy to cool down a bit, because if they keep playing at this level i don’t think we have a chance.

Educate_the_weak

That was a terrific article.

It summarized most of what many of have known and been saying for months. Some even predicted some of the issues.

It’s also screams that Thibs should be replaced.

If serious fans like us knew the starting lineup had some issues months ago and it’s so blatant even the national media has figured out, how the hell does the coach not know?

He’s either so stubborn he refuses to accept anything that conflicts with his own ideas despite ever growing evidence or he doesn’t even understand that these problems were predictable which made it more likely it wasn’t just statistical noise.

Either way, imo you probably have to move on. I’m not sure who should replace him, but at this point imo we need a change. Barring luck, he’s not going to get it done.

I wasn’t even embarrassed during the lean years post JVG. No matter what the team did. Now? Fully embarrassed. That is all

I’m with Brian, i still believe in our team. We have flaws, and there’s no need to act surprised about it when some team exposes our flaws, we just need to get better at minimizing those flaws.

I believe in the talent on this team and that despite the flaws that we have the players to mitigate them enough to beat the Pacers with some lineup changes. But even if we corrected course now, being in the hole 2-0 and going on the road for 2 may be too big a hole. This is all on Thibs.

I’m totally fine with moving on from Thibs, but don’t think this particular roster is going to win more games or go deeper into the playoffs with a different coach. If your two best players are Brunson and KAT, you have a fatal imbalance in your starting lineup. Then it becomes a coach’s willingness to bench one of them in crunch time. I don’t see a championship-level starting lineup ever existing with those two in it, unless you add a 2-way superstar, and then the salary cap and lack of picks will crush your ability to add quality depth.

But sure, playing a more exciting, free-wheelin’ brand of basketball would be refreshing. Maybe see what Mike D’Antoni is doing these days. Then we can 5-out the shit out other teams on the way to a second-round exit.

I’m totally fine with moving on from Thibs, but don’t think this particular roster is going to win more games or go deeper into the playoffs with a different coach. If your two best players are Brunson and KAT, you have a fatal imbalance in your starting lineup.

I’ve been saying that we either have to play Mitch and Towns together or trade Towns for a long time now. The reason I was upset we didn’t use that lineup more in the regular season was because I wanted to see whether it would work and also because the more time they play together the more prepared they’d be for the playoffs.

If he was reluctant to play 2 big men against some lineups, then Deuce has to be on the court.

I like Hart a lot and think we need his rebounding in some lineups, but he doesn’t help mitigate the defensive problems of Towns/Brunson. I’d rather play him on the bench.

Our best lineup may actually be Mitch, OG, Bridges, Deuce and Brunson. It’s not perfect, but they will defend and have have some scoring.

If we trade Towns and bring back someone very good, we may have one hell of a good team next year if we also have the right coach.

I want this to be clear. I like Towns a lot in almost every way. He’s just not a good fit on a team with another very weak defender and it’s hard to mitigate the problem

The obvious move is to start Mitch. Force them to either hack a Mitch and get into the bonus early so we can slow the game down or don’t foul him and he can just grab O board after O board and wreck havoc on defense.

As a Mitch stan, I’m glad that the playoffs have at least seemingly made him untradeable.

“Our best lineup may actually be Mitch, OG, Bridges, Deuce and Brunson. It’s not perfect, but they will defend and have have some scoring.”

No team will be afraid of that lineup in the playoffs. You have a tiny backcourt with a SG who is pretty easy to defend in space. Then you have a small-ish combo at the 3 and 4 who are situational scorers that a guy like Siakam can destroy. Then you have a C who can’t do anything on offense outside of 5 feet.

If that’s our best lineup, when I compare that the best lineup of other teams when they are healthy, I see “quick playoff exit.”

Yeah, I lurve Mitch, but he has to be the only non-scoring threat in the lineup for it to work.

“The obvious move is to start Mitch. Force them to either hack a Mitch and get into the bonus early so we can slow the game down or don’t foul him and he can just grab O board after O board and wreck havoc on defense.”

I’ve been saying that since we traded for KAT, and met a lot of resistance. It’s such an obvious move, and should have been done as soon as Mitch showed that he was healthy enough to play starter’s minutes (although he did seem to be limping around at times last night.)

If we are going to keep this roster, that’s the move….plus getting DDV (or a clone) back plus a better bench big than Precious and a better bench PG than Payne (probably not Tyler Kolek unless he speeds up and toughens up majorly.) Maybe a new coach plays Josh Hart 20-25 minutes off the bench, which is a much better role for him than a 38mpg starter.

As noted in the article above, starting Mitch would also allow you to stagger his minutes better.

Then you have a small-ish combo at the 3 and 4 who are situational scorers that a guy like Siakam can destroy.

It must be noted that the subtle move in the more … shall we say … fanboyish … precincts of the fanbase from “He’s a mega-elite defender, can guard all 5 positions, can switch onto anybody, OMG what an obvious coup!!” to “OG can’t possibly be expected to guard Pascal Siakim, we obviously need a new PF” has been quite the sight to behold.

I think that whatever happens between now and elimination, we all would like to see a more balanced approach towards playing the deep bench and a more fast-paced style than we will ever get from Thibs. Would Mike Malone give us that? Jenkins? Do you trust a potential finished product roster to a hot-shot rookie like Johnny Bryant? I don’t know what the answer is, but it would take a very bold move from Leon to move on from a guy who led you to the second round 3 times in a row and the conference finals for the first time since the turning of the millennium. I don’t think Leon has that in him, considering his love for Thibs and Brunson’s ties to him. My guess is that the Boston series bought him the start of another year, but hey, I never thought they would break up the ‘Nova gang, so there’s that!

Both games came down to the wire. It was a matter of execution. We should have absolutely won the first game but gave it away. We were outplayed in the last two quarters of the second game, but it still came down to the last seconds. Is the coach to blame for being down 2-0? One could make such an argument, but nobody can say this with confidence. Switch Thibs for Carlisle. Are the Knicks with this roster up 2-0?

I think Thibs could have been bolder but I am not convinced he alone is the reason we lost both games. This is too simplistic. Game 1 we should have won anyway. The coach had every justification to follow the same strategy in game 2. He made in-game adjustments, we all saw that, and he may also make more shocking ones in game 3. It won’t be an easy decision to bench an all-NBA big, for example. We shall see. Always remember that there is no magic wand, and the roster is what it is, a very good one but neither deep nor balanced. We are happy to be in the ECF.

I think there are two problems: KAT and Brunson together are too exploitable by Indiana’s offense, and Hart makes the offense stop. You can stagger Brunson and KAT (the two big lineup wasn’t good defensively either), but the solution to Hart is basically giving him a lot fewer minutes (if they are unwilling to run a different offense where he moves more regularly). This is mot a great series for him.

KAT played the 4 on the top defense in the association last year, and you have on your current roster a very Gobert-ian guy to play the 5 and who has certainly showed out in the playoffs, and yet that seemingly simple and straightforward observation and adjustment appears to be too much to ask, and a bridge far too far.

Befuddling.

KAT and Brunson together are too exploitable by Indiana’s offense

Thibs had to bench KAT in the fourth but then Indy kept relentlessly hunting Brunson time after time to create advantages. Painful to watch.

Kumbaya

This doesn’t even need to be a matter of players needing to get substantially more or fewer minutes. It’s the alignment that matters so much.

This is so obvious and now with the media harping on it from every angle, there is absolutely zero chance Thibs will do it.

Strat and many here have been on this since February.

I cannot see thibs being fired after reaching the conference finals and just beginning an extension. Other than that, KAT will go. Sacramento and Miami are mired in the worst seats in the Mezzanine. Is there a Kat, Bam and Sabonis 3 way possible?

Mitch kept this game relevant, it was impressive. The only problem I see with giving him more role is that he seems to wince in pain and grab at a different part of his body after every play.

This is so obvious and now with the media harping on it from every angle, there is absolutely zero chance Thibs will do it.

Strat and many here have been on this since February.

The real, actual problem is that “Wingstop” (*) isn’t good enough. Some of us here have been on that since well before February.

All the “KAT and Brunson suck on defense” and “KAT and Brunson can’t play together” stuff cropping up now in the wake of WS’s perpetual D+ performances is just cover for that, or simply mistaken.

(*) Or Wing”Stop,” if you will.

Other than that, KAT will go

If you could add a reliable rim protector and a tall shooter to this team, Thibs would be a good fit again. Basically we’d need to do what Dallas did at the 2024 deadline.

Not gonna happen though.

Well said, E. The other obvious adjustment to try is to start Deuce instead of Hart. This improves our PoA defense and thwarts the wing on Hart strategy.

We have never played 5 out on an extended basis for the entire season. That us staggering. If he won’t yse Towns in his most effective proven offensive role or his moat effective proven defensive role (alongside Mitch), then Thibs and Towns are fundamentally incompatible and one if them needs to go.

Pretty sure if you swapped out Jalen Williams, Lu Dort, and Alex Caruso for Wingstop, that there are a lot of well-accomplished and talented coaches out there who wouldn’t really have much of a problem playing Karl-Anthony Towns and Jalen Brunson at the same time.

What makes you think OKC would go for that?

They wouldn’t, obviously, but it’s more of an exercise in identifying the actual problems with the roster as opposed to the imaginary ones.

It’s also a first principle observation that one of the primary ways poor coaching identifies itself to our view is that players who actually can do things appear to us as if they can’t.

“Our best lineup may actually be Mitch, OG, Bridges, Deuce and Brunson. It’s not perfect, but they will defend and have have some scoring.”

That lineup is +39.0 in in 33:55 minutes played in the playoffs. It’s our second-best in plus/minus.

Swap out Bridges for Josh Hart and it’s still +34.7 in 37:27 played.

(Our #1 is Brunson/Deuce/Bridges/Hart/KAT, at +40.8 with 11:47 MP. Would probably have to go back and check to see if that’s from Game 6 vs. Boston or something.)

Watched it in a group setting last night and holy shit that was painful.

100% that our best lineup seems to have to include Deuce and Mitch.

I am not sure this is our major problem or the direction we should go but I understand your position. There will be plenty of discussion about those issues in the post season.

that is nine posts from pagucci now since he said that he would likely stop

“Pretty sure if you swapped out Jalen Williams, Lu Dort, and Alex Caruso for Wingstop, that there are a lot of well-accomplished and talented coaches out there who wouldn’t really have much of a problem playing Karl-Anthony Towns and Jalen Brunson at the same time.”

Pretty sure those well-accomplished coaches would be sitting at home right now after losing in the first round of the playoffs. (or at least as sure as the guy who thinks RJ is better than OG).

It doesn’t matter who you put with KAT. He can’t mentally keep up with where he needs to be against this offense. There’s open look after open look because he just blows coverages.

If there’s a defender in the vicinity, you can slow the opponent down to allow help to arrive, but KAT can’t even stay in the vicinity.

Well I just picked up the limited edition Knicks panties from the Fleur du Mal boutique downtown. Sadly they didn’t come in my size but my girlfriend is happy. I think this is going to turn the series around.

What I love about this team is that the two young women running the store were super excited to talk about the game last night with me. You know this team is special when it gets twenty-something y/o women in soho lingerie shops excited to talk about basketball. The Knicks make this town feel small, and I love that.

We still have at least one more day of this. Win tomorrow and we have at least two more games to look forward to. Let’s keep it going.

The Knicks are a strange team. They don’t appear to have the talent of a true title contender, the talent they do have isn’t particularly complementary, the starters aren’t effective together yet play a shit ton of minutes together, there are only two viable bench players, and at game 96 of the season they still don’t seem to have figured out basic defensive assignments.

Yet here they are, in the conference finals.
Down 2-0 but could have easily been up 2-0 with a couple of lucky bounces here or there.

I don’t know what to make of all of it anymore. Losing this series is frustrating but it also kind of feels like we don’t really belong here to begin with.

It doesn’t matter who you put with KAT. He can’t mentally keep up with where he needs to be against this offense. There’s open look after open look because he just blows coverages.

He played on the best defense in the NBA last year.

There’s really no actual reason to conclude that Thibs is even coaching playoff-caliber defense all that well at this point. Priors should always be examined.

Pretty sure those well-accomplished coaches would be sitting at home right now after losing in the first round of the playoffs.

Because actual all-defense, all-star and third team all-NBA Jalen Williams isn’t as good as OG??

Pull the move that was pulled on Shedeur Sanders, give Presti a call and offer him up Wingstop for those three guys. Let us know what he says. (Assuming he says anything above the laughter, anyway.)

This team does not really lack personnel. It has the talent to be so much better than they have been. We have multiple 5-man lineups that are putting up double-digit positive net ratings and destroying their matchups every time they step on the court in these playoffs.

We have enough evidence to at least try giving other lineups more time on the floor instead of the starters getting 308 out of 682 available minutes.

“100% that our best lineup seems to have to include Deuce and Mitch.”

Which two players should sit vs. opposing starters? Obviously Hart (at the expense of whatever he does better than Deuce and Mitch). Who else?
-Bridges? That would be suggesting that Deuce is better than Mikal, and if that’s the case, the Mikal trade was even more disastrous than even the most skeptical projection ever.
-KAT? At $50M AAV?
-OG? (lol!)
-Brunson (lol!)

feels like we don’t really belong here to begin with.

At this point I’m just happy we bounced the Celtics in quite convincing fashion.

If we can somehow go the NBA Finals, that’s gravy on gravy, but we’d be roadkill (as would Indy) so I don’t really care that much anymore.

Still, I’m very happy to have witnessed the first time in 25 years to the ECF.

Not two, just one. Either Deuce or Mitch, it doesn’t matter. The situation (down 0-2) and the evidence (5-man lineup playoff net rating) both say it’s time to make a change.

Bridges? That would be suggesting that Deuce is better than Mikal, and if that’s the case, the Mikal trade was even more disastrous than even the most skeptical projection ever.

I wouldn’t have any issue sitting Mikal for Deuce. Makes the bench better too and puts him on-ball against bench players.

The trade’s a sunk cost. It’s a disaster. No reason to make it worse by playing Mikal 40+ minutes during which he paces himself and otherwise plays mediocre, sub-zero OBPM, basketball.

I’d go Mitch/KAT/OG/Deuce/JB. OG (also negative OBPM) really doesn’t deserve in any way, shape, or form to start over Hart, but he does in fact spread the floor better so it probably balances things more.

With the coach as a given at this point in the season, this gives them the best shot.

that is nine posts from pagucci now since he said that he would likely stop

Neat, can you share the amount of posts from you since you got banned as Doogie and started up the tiresome typo bit?

As I said the game thread last night, when Hart is on the court, he has to set picks (on-ball or off-ball) and/or cut to the basket. When he stands on the perimeter, his defender sags into the lane, stopping penetration and cutting off passing lanes.

With 2 mins and 40 secs remaining in Game 1 the Knicks had a 14 pt lead…

“Pull the move that was pulled on Shedeur Sanders, give Presti a call and offer him up Wingstop for those three guys. Let us know what he says. (Assuming he says anything above the laughter, anyway.)”

That’s not the point here. You are suggesting that having those guys KAT and Brunson instead of SGA and Chet/iHart would make the team markedly better as a playoff team. I think the difference would be marginal at best. Every player benefits from his ecosystem.

Put differently, I think if you made that swap, and OKC fielded a lineup of iHart, Chet, OG, Mikal, and SGA with Hart coming off the bench along with the rest of their bench crew, they’d be just fine and dandy. And we’d be facing the same issues we are facing now.

If your point is that Jalen Williams is better than either OG or Mikal and still on a rookie contract, sure, whatever. Last I checked, he wasn’t available in a trade. I don’t think either Dort or Caruso would move the needle all that much from any of Hart, OG, or Mikal.

I have to say of all the stupid bits I’ve ever seen here, the one where a guy no one has ever heard of shows up for the playoffs to call everyone who is critical of the coach a “ghoul” and constantly mocks their emotion regulation skills while putting forth logically incomprehensible defenses of the coach is definitely one of the dumbest.

And at this point the “critical of Thibs” contingent justifiably encompasses nearly this entire community, the national media, and most of NYC. Last night at the bar I went to he was booed when he appeared on the screen in the 4Q to talk to the TNT reporter, and even the girls in the lingerie shop had a thing to say about him.

Thibs is not doing a good job and if you can’t handle people talking about it without calling them names perhaps it is you who needs to regulate your feelings better.

You are suggesting that having those guys KAT and Brunson instead of SGA and Chet/iHart would make the team markedly better as a playoff team.

Not suggesting that in the least. Suggesting only that KAT and Brunson can be played together and to the extent they “can’t,” (*) the problem doesn’t lie with them.

(*) Which is zero, but I’m going along with the “idea.”

If your point is that Jalen Williams is better than either OG or Mikal and still on a rookie contract, sure, whatever. Last I checked, he wasn’t available in a trade.

Offseason topic, but he was right there for the Knicks to draft (*), but instead Leon let himself get taken to the cleaners by Presti.

Water under ye olde bridge at this point.

(*) Assuming Leon even knew who he was, anyway. Lots of Jalens and Williamses out there, and even another Jaylen Williams who doesn’t even spell his name the same way. And doesn’t Jayson Williams still play for the Nets? Can be confusing and befuddling.

And for the record no one thinks “Thibs alone is the reason we are losing”. Thibs is currently contributing to our problems and making the task of beating the Pacers slightly more difficult. That’s it. We all know how much blame the players deserve, and they’re all getting their share of it.

Generally speaking, fans are more forgiving of the guys out there giving maximum effort and leaving everything on the floor than a guy sitting on the sideline who has one fucking job and isn’t doing it well. That’s just how the cookie crumbles.

We can complain all day about Thibs but the most likely scenario for next season is the Knicks will bring back Thibs and the entire Top 7 core while hopefully adding a couple of decent bench upgrades to give Thibs 9 guys he’ll trust to play every game.

The Knicks will increase their wins total next season to probably around 55 wins and a Top 2 seed in the East. Then come playoff team we’ll be going thru another roller coaster ride just like we’re in this year…

I wouldn’t have any issue sitting Mikal for Deuce. Makes the bench better too and puts him on-ball against bench players.

I think you would be in the extreme minority of NBA coaching circles. Maybe the David Fizdales of the world would agree.

The trade’s a sunk cost. It’s a disaster. No reason to make it worse by playing Mikal 40+ minutes during which he paces himself and otherwise plays mediocre, sub-zero OBPM, basketball.

Funny how OBPM now becomes important to your analysis. But since you brought it up, Lu Dort has a negative OBPM (-3.1 in these playoffs, never positive in any year in his career). I agree that he plays too many minutes, so there’s that. And as you well know, I have been a critic of the trade since the day it was made, and nothing has changed that opinion. We can quibble about how much of a blunder it was, but it was definitely a blunder. But we don’t have to be a KAT apologist or a Thibs hater to see that.

OG (also negative OBPM) really doesn’t deserve in any way, shape, or form to start over Hart, but he does in fact spread the floor better so it probably balances things more.

See above re: Fizdale

With the coach as a given at this point in the season, this gives them the best shot.

It might, but we’ll never know, will we? So let’s just assume we are right since we can’t be proven wrong. I totally get it!

Generally speaking, fans are more forgiving of the guys out there giving maximum effort and leaving everything on the floor than a guy sitting on the sideline who has one fucking job and isn’t doing it well. That’s just how the cookie crumbles.

That and plus we’ve seen this cookie crumble the same way multiple times before.

Yes, E, if we just add the all-defense team, then we might be able to play KAT and Brunson together. Great idea.

Truly your best idea since pontificating as to why we don’t just have 5 all-stars.

We can complain all day about Thibs but the most likely scenario for next season is the Knicks will bring back Thibs and the entire Top 7 core while hopefully adding a couple of decent bench upgrades to give Thibs 9 guys he’ll trust to play every game.

I agree that this is the most likely scenario, but not inevitable. Until it happens, it’s certainly fair to debate alternatives.

The Knicks will increase their wins total next season to probably around 55 wins and a Top 2 seed in the East.

This is quite possible, assuming another good year of health.

Then come playoff team we’ll be going thru another roller coaster ride just like we’re in this year…

It’s about the length of the ride, not the nature of it. Do we survive the first round? Second round?

Sorry but this doesn’t make sense. You’re excited for game 3 because maybe Thibs will do something his entire career shows he’s definitely not going to do?

No, I’m excited for game 3 bc it’s a game in the EC Finals that I get to watch with my friends and talk about in this community.

It’s a logical mistake to assume people who express criticism don’t feel blessed and appreciate the gift of being able to enjoy this team in this city this deep into the playoffs.

Not suggesting that in the least. Suggesting only that KAT and Brunson can be played together and to the extent they “can’t,” (*) the problem doesn’t lie with them.

(*) Which is zero, but I’m going along with the “idea.”

I have a hard time following your logic as the discussion is not about an ideal roster we would like to put out; it’s about the real one in front of us, with complimentary pieces around KAT and Brunson. OG does not seem to be to your liking, Bridges could be coming off the bench, and so on, but when you are asked how that would make us better you revert back to the ideal construction. Is there something I am missing here?

Yes, E, if we just add the all-defense team, then we might be able to play KAT and Brunson together. Great idea.

Probably wasn’t such a great idea to invest all those assets in WS, then, if acquiring them rendered your two stars/superstars unplayable together.

I’m still confused by how listless our regular starting five is out there. Macri called them limp fish. Passive? Tentative? Hesitant? Uncertain?

It’s one of those the sum is WAY less than the parts.

And you change the lineup even a little and it’s like you wash whatever it is away.

Baffling.

If the simple solution is to add either Deuce or Mitch to the starting lineup, then why did doing that not overcome a two point deficit?

Pretty obvious reason: the sequence of minutes is important. Mitch missed the whole year and is still getting his conditioning up. There’s a big difference between playing him 16 consecutive minutes and playing him in two 8 minute sequences with rest in between. Mitch looked gassed in the second half when Thibs went back to the same well.

Even still, they might have overcome the deficit if Thibs didn’t also inexplicably play Cam Payne at the same time. (We were out scored 11-2 in the Cam minutes.)

I’m still confused by how listless our regular starting five is out there. Macri called them limp fish. Passive? Tentative? Hesitant? Uncertain?

Not playing balls out, almost certainly since they know they have to pace themselves to play Thibs’s minutes.

Ultimate cause and reason: Thibs’s inability/refusal to develop quality depth for use come playoff time.

“Offseason topic, but he was right there for the Knicks to draft (*), but instead Leon let himself get taken to the cleaners by Presti.

Water under ye olde bridge at this point.”

So was SGA. And Hali. And Duren. There were a lot of different ways to go that would have resulted in a better team than we have.

But all of those whiffs were recoverable in the Brunson era. It’s the Bridges trade that makes the future murky. As we all agree, the KAT trade was great from a value perspective, but some (like me) feel that having him as your second star is limiting in other ways, so you either have to cash in on his value or build around him with the assets and roster flexibility you have left.

Now, there are some clever ways to do that. Find the next star UDFA like Dort or FVV. Draft someone in the 2nd round who will develop quickly enough to enhance the roster in the next year or two. Make a clever trade for a guy with untapped potential stuck on a shitty team or a great team with a deep roster. Develop one of our current rookies into a strong rotation player which might require a coach who will play them at the possible expense of wins (Huk and Dadiet seem like the best options for this.)

Or trade the likes of Hart, Bridges, or OG if the right deal comes along for a significant upgrade to the starting lineup (Giannis?) Unlikely, but hey, you never know!

Whatever, at the very least, I’d like to see us fill out our bench in more creative ways than looking for the Paynes, Shamets, Precious’s, Wrights and Tuckers of the world.

I have to say of all the stupid bits I’ve ever seen here, the one where a guy no one has ever heard of shows up for the playoffs to call everyone who is critical of the coach a “ghoul” and constantly mocks their emotion regulation skills while putting forth logically incomprehensible defenses of the coach is definitely one of the dumbest.

+1 to this..i think the term “imbeciles” is also bandied about from time to time.. from the all knowing buddha…i’m like chill dude…its not like your shit don’t stink too..

I’m not convinced Delon is our bench super weapon.

I don’t think Delon is a weapon. I think Delon won’t kill you for 8-10 minutes, which in turn allows our real super weapon (OG) to not be so physically and mentally exhausted at the end of every game that he’s making uncharacteristic mistakes on both ends of the floor.

Again, we had the same thing with Alec Burks last year. A perfectly useful bench piece just rotted away til OG got hurt.

Based on the roster we have, the double big lineup (Mitch/KAT) would allow Thibs to play his (awful) drop coverage he loves so much, space the floor & create easier looks for Brunson/OG/Bridges since the opposition can easily just clog the paint.

I’ve been pounding this point for awhile now.

You let Hart & Duce & Wright/Cam play situational minutes and run whatever hybrid at the end of that game that works. It’s not hard but this dude makes it hard.

We are finesse team trying to play “tough guy”.

Wanna know what drove me crazy these last 2 games? All the Anunoby pump fake side step 3’s. I feel like he’s trying to force offense again, rather than letting it come to him and taking advantage of mismatches like he does when he’s at his best. Kinda feels like he doesn’t want Bridges to take the shots that he’s good at in these playoffs. If you’re gonna get a guy off his feet, either drive and kick to the open guy or shoot a shorter jumper. The strength of our offense has never been volume, so why add that shot to your shot chart, then keep doing it when it’s not working? It hasn’t worked the entire postseason. He only got away with it vs Boston because he played great defense that round. Brunson, Bridges, and Towns are all unselfish enough to find you when you have the advantage- just let them work dude! Move without the ball and you will get plenty backdoor cuts and corner 3’s, and even post ups on switches. Shooting 3’s just to shoot them only works when you have the shooters to pull it off, and he was never a volume shooter.

It’s frustrating because we have the talent and coaching to win this series if we make the right adjustments. Alot of that is on Thibs. I’ve been saying he needed to replace Bryant with a sort of Offensive Coordinator since the offseason. Someone needs to go so Thibs can have that if he stays. I’d love to keep Cheeks and Rick Brunson if we could, but one of them can go if it means we get an offense-focused coach to help Thibs.

Or..we can just put all our efforts into replacing Thibs with Dan Hurley 🤷🏾‍♂️

Probably wasn’t such a great idea to invest all those assets in WS, then, if acquiring them rendered your two stars/superstars unplayable together.

Probably wasn’t a great idea to invest in KAT/Brunson when there aren’t players who could render them playable.

What makes OKC great- they play zero negative defenders

This Pacers teams weakest starter – the Point Guard

In Minnesota last year Towns played Power Forward and let’s take a look at the lineup he played with

Conley- good defender
Ant- good
Mcdaniels- good
And a guy that has several DPOYs to his name

None of then on the level of Brunson defensively

Delon is one of the best defenders in the league. His issue has always been offense, which has made him difficult to play at times.

But when Cam Payne has a .391 TS% and 3.2 asts/36 in the playoffs, then Delon Wright sure as hell looks like a super weapon.

KAT and Brunson are playable, hence the Knicks winning 51 games while currently playing in the Conference Finals….

Minus nine in the Cam Payne fourth qtr minutes ….

Delon is exactly the type of guy a smart coach would find some time for. I’ve called him a poor man’s Jrue Holiday..

Delon is one of the best defenders in the league. His issue has always been offense, which has made him difficult to play at times.

He may play tomorrow. It’s a do or die game and almost all agree defense is our main issue.

Saying a particular 5 man lineup was good in 34 minutes spread out over 10 different games is completely useless information.

That said, I’ve though we should start Deuce since the preseason, so if Thibs does that tomorrow I’m not going to complain. He’s got 7 or 8 guys to play jiggling the combos of those probably isn’t going to matter that much, but these are two pretty evenly matched teams so maybe it will. Let’s hope so.

As we all agree, the KAT trade was great from a value perspective

We don’t all agree with this.

Early in the year folks concluded this. After the dust has settled, that was clearly premature.

The Wolves got Randle, Donte, the 17th pick in the draft, and saved $11M in salary for a guy they had to bench in the WC Finals bc his defense made him unplayable. They also got out of a very overpriced contract.

One year later, after a second team just had to bench him in the CF for his defense, I’m not so sure we didn’t overpay.

I’m sure Leon could find a sucker out there to give him valuable assets for KAT just like Minnesota did when they found him, but the job is getting harder. Real contenders won’t be interested, you’ll have to talk to the Washingtons and Sacramentos of the world.

KAT made All-NBA 3rd team this season, his BPM was higher than Randle and DDV combined. Before you say well playoffs are different Randle in Game 2 vs OKC was benched for the entire 4th quarter after scoring 6 pts on 2 for 11 shooting to go with 4 tos.

Recent Posts

Recent Comments

Archives

111 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.05.24)”

Leave a Reply