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115 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.12.22)”
I love the way the team played despite Thibs’ strategy. I think this means we have a good group of guys on the squad. However, Thibs was definitely out-coached by Nurse last night. But I wanna stop short of saying it was Thibs’ fault- because while I believe Cam should have started in this match up, it’s possible that Cam being in the doghouse is more a Cam thing than a Thibs thing. Had Cam played, we would have had another guy around Siakam’s size to switch onto him- especially when he started cookin. While Quickley’s a good to great defender, he just doesn’t have the size to affect a lineup like the Raptors enough. Plus, we were counting on Rose to quickly shake off the rust to be instant offense with the 2nd unit. Cam starting last night would have fixed that problem. Moving forward, I’m ok with last night’s rotation until Grimes is healthy- but it just didn’t work last night and was highly unlikely to anyway. Toronto is a match up nightmare everywhere but in the paint. And when you have nimble bigs like Mitch and Sims, you can worry less about their bigs trying to pull them away from the basket.
But overall, I’m still happy with how this team is playing so I’m not at all worried about the loss. Would have been great to win tho
By far the team’s biggest need before the deadline is a long wing who can defend multiple positions. Cam was supposed to be that, but he’s a knucklehead and a tease, so that should be Leon’s priority, if he can do it without giving up too much. Who’s out there from a team that either might be tanking or would prefer Evan’s shooting or gambling on Cam’s hypothetical upside?
And to be clear..when I say it might be a Cam thing- I 1000% mean that he might be handling the promotion poorly away from the media. Thibs is no fool- he knows how much talent Cam has and how his play helps the team this season. And so, the combination of an inconsistent motor and possible sulking makes it a Cam thing and a ticket off the roster. Sad, really. But to be fair- this is just speculation on my part. But I just don’t think Thibs is so foolish that he refuses to play Cam based on ability after seeing what he can contribute earlier this season
Alan-
At this point, seeing how far and fast Cam has fallen- I’d rather have Fournier in the rotation as that extra perimeter threat on the 2nd unit until Obi is back- if we even keep him
Iām not sure Iād read too much about into Thibs playing Rose instead of him. Grimes is a guard. Thibs thought he needed another guard to play with Sims, Hartenstein, Barrett and McBride when the bench was in. Cam is not a guard.
Yes, of course the Knicks need exactly what Alan said they need.
…. however ….
Thibs never sees the answer to any deficiency to be, “Let’s just normalize things and go with normal solutions and try to do normal things better than we’re doing them now; that’s better for both now and the future.” It’s always, always, always “Let’s patch things together by whatever means necessary and put more elbow grease on the problem and practice harder; worst thing that can happen is we sneak some extra wins because it will be not normal for the other teams, too.”
Isaiah Hartenstein/Jericho Sims/Derrick Rose/Miles McBride is not a competitive bench. The Knicks are deploying weird personnel again. That always seems to happen with Thibs around.
Yes, I’m well aware that this will get me the “E just hates Thibs” routine — but that’s not really it at all. As I said yesterday, Thibs is very good at duct taping together short-term solutions that generate wins over baseline within the expected purgatorial range. There are those who are perfectly fine with that, who indeed find that to be the marker of a good coach. Within narrow parameters, they’re right. I just don’t think those narrow parameters are the right ones.
You’re lucky, it’s short version day, I crushed the alarm and overslept A LOT…
Quick thoughts:
– The Raptors were hungry and very well prepared, we were out-coached and, especially in the first half, out-hustled.
– Siakam had a monster game. That said it reminded me of Grant’s one, too many FTs for tick-tack fouls, our guys weren’t equally protected.
– FVV destroyed JB, who choosed the wrong night to have a bad game (5 TO, some very unforced)
– 91% vs 61%: hit those fucking free throws!
– I-Hart and Sims? Not against teams full of long athletic wings.
– It’s a pleasure to see IQ hitting shots with confidence, alas his final (and only!) turnover turned the tide…
– Randle (missed FTs aside) and RJ (1st half TOs aside) were both excellent.
– We missed Grimes a lot, and Mitch down the stretch too.
– Given the circumnstances it was close to a miracle that we had a chance to win.
– I wont talk about the players (non) rotation, whoever watched the game knows…
Grades:
Brunson C (saved by the 12 ASTs)
RJ A-
Randle A-
Robinson A-
IQ A-
Hartenstein C
Sims C
Rose C
Mc Bride B
Thibs C
FVV wasn’t really even guarding JB, at least in a defined “He’s your man” way. The Raps went quasi-zone and used their long switchable length, including their 5 at the top of the 1-2-2, to take JB’s strengths away.
IOW — they prepared. They were desperate.
I’d expect this to happen more.
E, I don’t know that I agree with that criticism of Thibs at this stage of the season. He’s experimented a lot so far with rotations and various lineup combos. There were a few games where he played 11 guys in non-blowouts. Prior to the winning streak, he was clearly looking to figure out a recipe that would work with this roster. He eventually went back to his core principle: You have to defend in order to play. Hence, Deuce in for Rose, Fournier remaining dungeoned, etc. Cam theoretically is a good defender, and has defended well in spurts this season. But the sample size in college and the NBA is pretty large at this point, and it says he is a guy with an inconsistent motor, a streaky offensive game, and a wildly overinflated sense of his own abilities. We are not in the locker room or practices, but it is not hard to imagine that, on top of Cam’s utterly disgraceful play in the Mavs game, he is not endearing himself to his coaches or teammates in between games.
The twin towers lineup is an experiment born of the desperation of not having a true third-string PF on the roster. It’s out of step with some modern NBA rosters, but not all; as discussed yesterday, it’s exactly what Cleveland does, albeit with much more talented players than iHart and Sims. It for the most part worked very well until last night, when we saw how ill-suited it is against a team with a lot of quick, switchable wings. What was the better option? Fournier can’t defend, even when he tries. Cam is the proverbial box of chocolates, on top of whatever locker room issues might explode if he got released from the dungeon for only a game or two. But there also aren’t a ton of rosters built like Toronto, and I imagine the Sims/iHart combo can hold the line until Obi’s back.
The roster Leon built has a lot of depth in the backcourt and at center, but is awfully thin at forward, especially if you believe, as I do, that Cam is a lost cause. Thibs is making do with what he has.
within the expected purgatorial range
What I love so much about this phrase is that it can really mean whatever E wants it to mean to fit his agenda.
“Range” can mean anywhere from a 25 to 50 win team depending on whatever mood E is in. This “purgatorial range” phrase only appeared when the Knicks started winning games and clearly rose above the blog defined term of “purgatory.” Now it’s a “range” that is very loosely defined.
Notice how he never brings up all of the other teams that are in in this range (cause it’s literally half the league). Apparently being 3 or 4 games above 500, the 6th seed with a 9 man rotation made up of 7 drafted players and 8 players 25 or under with no bad contracts and lots of first round picks over the next few years is still considered within the “purgatorial range.”
He also gets to arbitrarily put “ceilings” on young players who have been in the league for less than 3 seasons based on “expected outcomes.” You can use all sorts of really smart sounding phrases to make it sound like you know exactly what the “ceiling” is of Sims or IQ or Grimes or whoever.
Also, Thibs doesn’t have a history of “extracting wins” from middling teams. He’s a winning coach. Period. He’s coached a teams that have won 50 plus games for multiple seasons and reached the conference finals. He hasn’t won it all and he’s had his flameouts in the post season too, but to act like all he does is squeeze out extra wins from mediocre teams is bullshit. He’s literally coached teams that have gone to the playoffs in more seasons than he’s coached teams that haven’t.
In fact, Thibs has only missed the playoffs like 3 times in his coaching career.
Call me a Thibs worshipper but people love to shit on coaches but then one day, they’re geniuses. What’s his name in Dallas was considered not a good coach but then he coached a stacked Dallas team to a championship and after that, no one ever questioned if he was a winning coach again. Meanwhile guys like Thibs can coach winning teams consistently but because he faced the Miami Heatles in the conference finals and after that D Rose got injured, he’s not a “championship coach.” It’s all narrative bullshit for the most part.
Somehow it seems we need to trade for whatever Cam is supposed to be. We also won’t use him even if we’re down to four players and a shrubbery, so that can’t be good for his trade value. He must be doing something very wrong.
Defensively, we didn’t have the right personnel last night (Grimes), but I rarely see Thibs figure out a way to stop the other team’s hot hand during games. Last night it was Siakam, but the best teams *always* have a guy with the hot hand. Thibs might be wise to look into something b/c “Play harder” will only take our guys so far.
Eye-test-wise, I also thought we played way too fast last night, and I hate myself for saying it b/c generally I like watching up tempo basketball. There were some runs we made to get even or ahead after which I thought we should have slowed the game way down. Instead we continued to rush our possessions, made turnovers, as we tried to trade baskets with a team that was having a much easier time scoring.
The arc of the internet bends toward disagreement, but if we were in a debate hall or exchanging letters, the audience or observers wouldn’t find much difference at all between the following:
E: Thibs never sees the answer to any deficiency to be, āLetās just normalize things and go with normal solutions and try to do normal things better than weāre doing them now; thatās better for both now and the future.ā Itās always, always, always āLetās patch things together by whatever means necessary and put more elbow grease on the problem and practice harder; worst thing that can happen is we sneak some extra wins because it will be not normal for the other teams, too.ā
Alan: Prior to the winning streak, he was clearly looking to figure out a recipe that would work with this roster. He eventually went back to his core principle: You have to defend in order to play.
**********************************
“It for the most part worked very well until last night, when we saw how ill-suited it is against a team with a lot of quick, switchable wings. ”
Precisely my point. Thibs’s duct taping eventually becoming ill-suited is *inevitable*. It’s baked in to the very enterprise. The league leaves some quarters laying around on the ground. Thibs takes them. Then the league takes them away. With ease.
********************************************
“What was the better option?”
Normalcy.
**************************************
“Cam is the proverbial box of chocolates, on top of whatever locker room issues might explode if he got released from the dungeon for only a game or two. ”
All due respect, no idea where these “locker room” issues are coming from. They’re pure speculation and/or projection, backfilled to support an a priori narrative. And, frankly, if Thibs is running an operation where there would be some kind of locker room revolt if he put a normal option into an open rotation spot, that’s a demerit on Thibs.
He must be doing something very wrong.
*********************
This still begs the question, in the true sense of the term. There is no reason, beyond appeal to authority, to accept Thibs’s premises and then try to backfill speculative reasons into them to justify them.
Let’s stop doing that.
On the record as we actually find it, it’s just as possible — more possible, really — that he isn’t doing anything “wrong,” and that Thibs is just blundering, or doing the things I’ve sketched out.
This is a guy who blew playoff games with Elfrid Payton when anyone with two functional eyes could see it coming.
RE Purgatory: I thought one of our esteemed elders already defined that as being between 35 and 44 wins. We are definitely winning more than 44 this year (IMO), so … last night’s loss is a “teaching moment” for Thibs and co. Not a harbinger of doom.
“iād just like to share ā to heck with you Handout 8.1: Challenging Beliefs Worksheetā¦
trying to convince myself most people are not distracted and dysfunctional while drivingā¦yeah, both started and finished that worksheet at a 100% belief ratingā¦
need to put “Werewolf by Night on my watch listā¦squirrelā¦
i guess the good news is my Stuck Points list is kind of shrinkingā¦you know, if it wasnāt for the 8 billion other people roaming around the globe ā iām pretty sure iād have most of this shit figured out alreadyā¦
okay, iād still be stuck with me, so, probably notā¦”
Geo, what in the heck are you talking about here? I don’t understand what The Handout: Challenging Beliefs Worksheet is, much less the Stuck Points List.
Listen..before yal get started LOL
We have already mostly jumped out of the window with the 8 game win streak. After a loss in a trap game to break said streak, there is no reason to run to the other side of the building and jump out that window.
For me, it was one loss. The team is still playing well even with the injuries. If we lose 2 or 3 more in a row, I’ll probably be first in line to jump out of that other window though LOL
Alec Burks, point guard.
The prosecution rests.
Whoās out there from a team that either might be tanking or would prefer Evanās shooting or gambling on Camās hypothetical upside?
thybulle barely plays when everyone’s healthy and is rfa…it’s conceivable the sixers would prefer trying cam or perhaps a third team would, where the sixers got someone like crowder (also possible). thybulle obviously has large warts, but he’d probably be a more useful fit than the sims/hart lineup that seems unlikely to keep its mild luster.
saddiq bey has been in a few trade rumors. not going to get him for cam, although troy weaver’s a wildcard so i guess you never know for sure. but for him i think you’re more talking about an obi-type cost.
jalen mcdaniels the charlotte one is probably available. he’s a decent rangy wing defender, though hardly a stud, and could be a possible cam rfa for rfa swap.
kenrich williams on okc does not quite look like the guy to stick in front of the siakams of the world but he actually does quite a decent job against that sort of initating length.
“In fact, Thibs has only missed the playoffs like 3 times in his coaching career.”
He’s a poor playoff coach. Overall winning percentage of .410, two 4-1 losses as a higher seed. One ECF, 12 years ago.
We saw his playoff act up close and personal here two years ago. It’s pretty clear to anyone objective what happens to him in the playoffs.
It will be eight years this spring since he last won a playoff series.
He is very good at putting together short-term solutions, or as Alan put it, “figuring out recipes” to work with his various rosters year-by-year. That’s his clear strength as a coach. He’s really good at it. No matter who the front office gives him, the wheels are not going to fall off the train with Tom Thibodeau as the coach. And many times, he will win more games with who the front office gives him than most other coaches on Earth will win. If it takes sticking Alec Burks at PG even though there’s zero future in such a thing then, by God, Tom Thibodeau will stick Alec Burks at PG.
The other parts of the job … not so much.
“Jalen McDaniels the Charlotte one.” LOL
There is only one Jalen McDaniels in the league. The guy on Minnesota is Jaden McDaniels, his brother.
There are definitely too many guys in the NBA with the first name “Jalen” right now, though. 2002 was a very Jalen year, indeed.
Cam Reddish was doing a really nice job using his length to guard the perimeter, both in reality and by KB consensus.
All the rest is just revisionism.
Hopefully, everyone grasps the concept that it’s possible to … you know … play both Cam Reddish and Quentin Grimes. The rules of basketball permit that.
I don’t normally care for appeals to authority but when you *combine* the total lack of interest in Cam around the league with his history of posting mediocre-to-bad numbers, I’m inclined to believe we’re not suffering from a lack of Cam Reddish.
Seriously, 29 teams could have the guy for a totally fake first-rounder. The last team to think he was worth that price was the Knicks. Our mistake was overvaluing him initially, not undervaluing him now.
Thibs’s reputation was established long before Cam Reddish. (And the Knicks blew the 2021 draft long before The Incineration was completed by trading for Cam Reddish.)
And Cam Reddish in fact was doing a good job guarding the perimeter both in reality and by KB consensus. No need for revisionism on that front.
Cam Reddish isn’t really the answer to any important question, though, I certainly agree with that. The overall roster and its unfortunately still purgatorial state are far more important questions. But it’s not really good form to continually shill for Tom Thibodeau by ripping into fringe players and then making a bunch of stuff up about the locker room and practice.
Ironically enough, looks like last night’s loss put us in the top-10 in both offensive and defensive rating. I don’t expect that to last but we take the wins where we can get them around here.
Unfortunately I think 30 teams are currently looking for a long, switchable wing who can hold his own on offense. Cam Reddish could play one of those guys in a movie, but he ain’t it. If we make a move, we’ll probably have to compromise on some part of the long + switchable + playable on offense equation.
If Philly wants to wash their hands of Thybulle I would definitely be interested if it just cost us Cam, or even Cam and some seconds. Between Randle and Brunson we’re actually better positioned to account for offensive zeroes than most teams.
I don’t think OKC is moving Williams unless they’re overwhelmed. He’s signed on the cheap for a while and apparently they (understandably) really like him.
In the bargain bin department, you have to think the Magic would basically give Terrence Ross away at this point right?
Alec Burks is available, and I fully expect the Knicks to try to bring him back.
Cam aside, the Raptors were not doing anything particularly complicated on offense. Siakam and FVV did all the damage, and we prolly should have made it more difficult for them early on with harder fouls. Not to get to 90s, but Mitch and Randle were the only guys matching up to their physicality. I was disappointed in Sims’s shift in that respect.
Siakam had 18 FT attempts, same as our entire team.
Total rebounds were equal, but they had 16 on offense to our 9, which surprised me given the lineups. They were just a step faster to every ball.
Turnovers, we had 16, and they had 4, which is prolly the whole game right there.
PS — we also missed 7 free throws and lost by … 7
Somehow, some way, I’ve wound up in the role of Cam Reddish’s defense counsel around here, but it’s also false to say he wasn’t “holding his own on offense.” He has a .558 TS%.
So if we’re keeping fair score he was both (1) doing a nice job of using his length to guard the perimeter; and (2) holding his own on offense, particularly given the “stand in the corner” role he was assigned.
With all that, he still might not be one’s cup of tea, and that’s fine. I get it and I see the surface mental and physical drifting vibes he gives off. I’m not blind. If that’s your problem, then just say it — “He looks too disengaged for my tastes and I don’t trust a player that looks too disengaged.” Or something like that. I personally don’t put much stock in that kind of stuff, others may. Tom Thibodeau might.
It’s fine if scoring points with E is irrelevant to people — it’s a free country — but playing it straight is typically the best way to score points. There’s virtue in playing it straight even if no one’s paying attention.
E, I think most of us here agree that Cam could have uses. Itās just that some of us infer that Thibs has a good reason that is unknown to us for not playing him. And some just think Thibs is making the wrong decision.
Cam and Fournier are getting the Austin Rivers/Kemba Walker banishment treatment from Thibs. None of us really know why. Some will say the results speak for themselves; I don’t believe that’s true.
We shall see.
“He has a .558 TS%.”
Scoring 13.8 PTS/36 with a TS+ of 97 is an extremely generous definition of “holding your own” on offense. It’s amazing you say this shit and then turn right around and say Grimes’ nearly identical volume with a *111* TS+ doesn’t impress you.
He’s not my “cup of tea” because he’s bad, not because of “drifting vibes.”
Pretty sure we can’t trade for Burks until the offseason, as we traded him away, and there’s a rule that precludes trading for a player you traded away for at least a year. We’d be really cooking if we had traded Fournier away instead of Burks last year!
“Scoring 13.8 PTS/36 with a TS+ of 97 is an extremely generous definition of āholding your ownā on offense.”
That clearly qualifies as “holding your own.”
*****************************
“Itās amazing you say this shit and then turn right around and say Grimesā nearly identical volume with a *111* TS+ doesnāt impress you.”
There’s nothing at all amazing about saying a 97 TS+ isn’t holding your own. It clearly is. Quentin Grimes has nothing to do with Cam Reddish — both can play under basketball rules — but he’s more than holding his own right now. He’s actually playing pretty well. I like him.
Heās not my ācup of teaā because heās bad, not because of ādrifting vibes.ā
************************
He’d be bad in your eyes no matter what he did, much like Porzingis. Is what it is. You have your betes noires guys just like we all do. We’re all human.
Reddish having a below league average TS% on low volume isn’t exactly holding his own especially when you combine that with an almost total lack of assists. The obsession with Cam Reddish, a player who hasn’t been good since he was in HS, is just as weird as the Frank obsession.
It seems like keyboards are working overtime to explain a very simple result.
1. The Raptors are better than their record.
2. Siakam was hot
3. Brunson was not
Cam has a passable TS%, but itās on low volume, and he doesnāt pitch in with any other box score stuffing. So you have to believe a LOT in Camās defensive prowess to believe heās a particularly helpful player.
He has, at times, played at a level higher than ācomplete bum,ā and sure, maybe Thibs could have thrown him out there to see if his length was effective in disrupting the Raps, but Iām not too upset that Cam Reddish, the poor manās Ronnie Brewer, is not getting minutes. The reason Iām not upset is the same reason I wasnāt upset that Frank Ntilikina wasnāt getting minutes. You have to squint pretty hard at the guy to see a good player. Cam is a better NBA player than Frank, and will probably play more minutes in his career, but thatās not saying a whole lot.
I think yesterday was a great loss, in the sense that it showed us some limitations of our team–we struggle against long, athletic teams that can neutralize a lot of Randle and Jalen’s game. And we struggle defending against great length, since that reduces our rebounding advantage significantly. Both of these facts show us what we need: another rangy, athletic wing (like others, I’m a big fan of Kenrich Williams fit with this team.) It was also a great loss in the sense that Deuce and IQ moved into BPM positive territory, which we need from them if we’re sticking with the 9 man rotation for the foreseeable future. Also, the loss was fluky because they needed every point of Siakam’s 50+ to win.
Overall, I’m very happy with where we are, and I think we’re going to bounce back in Chicago and give Philly hell on Christmas.
Cam Reddish is a symptom of something bigger. He’s not critical in and of himself.
“Reddish having a below league average TS% on low volume isnāt exactly holding his own especially when you combine that with an almost total lack of assists.”
…or perhaps being the worst 6’8″ rebounder in the NBA…
“He has, at times, played at a level higher than ācomplete bum,ā and sure, maybe Thibs could have thrown him out there to see if his length was effective in disrupting the Raps, but Iām not too upset that Cam Reddish, the poor manās Ronnie Brewer, is not getting minutes. The reason Iām not upset is the same reason I wasnāt upset that Frank Ntilikina wasnāt getting minutes. You have to squint pretty hard at the guy to see a good player. Cam is a better NBA player than Frank, and will probably play more minutes in his career, but thatās not saying a whole lot.”
Of course we all know that we’re not really debating about Cam Reddish here….because there is no debate to be had, except to prop up some other tedious narrative.
My guess is that the Cam issue is related to off the court activities and attitude and not basketball. I say that because while Grimes was out, Thibs was starting him, playing him in the 4th quarter to close games, and he was playing well. He was not just being showcased or being given an opportunity. Then he got hurt and probably rushed back because he didn’t want to lose his rotation spot, but had a mediocre game.
Then we had relatively early Sunday game where he was in a coma.
My guess is Cam was out all night on Saturday drinking and banging some woman (or women), came to the game hungover and exhausted, was terrible, and Thibs sent him to the doghouse.
You don’t go from 0 to 100 or 100 to 0 based on 1, 2 or even 5 bad games, let alone 10 bad minutes. He was going to play behind Grimes either way, but what’s going on now is more than just basketball.
IQ having back to back 20pt games is the better story. Does he hate the road?
My guess is Cam was out all night on Saturday drinking and banging some woman (or women), came to the game hungover and exhausted, was terrible, and Thibs sent him to the doghouse.
*************************
That’s my guess, too, and my response remains consistent with what it is with all this stuff — this isn’t high school.
Cam’s probably a partier. Not the first, won’t be the last. (Never a pro basketballer, but at 22 so was I.) If a pro coach can’t handle and manage that, he’s in the wrong racket. And eventually, he’ll stop the relentless clubbing. Probably 3-4 more years, maybe sooner if he realizes it cost him a bunch of money.
“Heād be bad in your eyes no matter what he did, much like Porzingis. Is what it is. You have your betes noires guys just like we all do. Weāre all human.”
I promise you, if Cam Reddish was good at NBA basketball I would be the first to advocate for him getting more minutes. The only thing stopping me from doing so is the fact that there is no way you can torture the numbers to make the case that he is, in fact, good at NBA basketball.
Watch this: Porzingis is playing very well this year.
See? Your keyboard psychoanalysis is lacking, I am perfectly happy to admit when any NBA player is playing well!
I spent all of last season and the offseason lamenting Julius Randle’s extension, so if anything you’d think I’d have a hard time admitting he’s playing well this season. But alas, Julius Randle is playing very well this season. You’re the one with the weird hang up about admitting as much, actually!
Cam is just bad. The numbers say it. The eye-test says it. The fact that we can’t even get the fake first-rounder we traded for him back in a trade says it.
IQ Home v Road stats
46% FG with 41% from 3 – Home – (148 attempts)
33% FG with 27% from 3 – Road – (132 attempts)
“Watch this: Porzingis is playing very well this year.”
You only said that because you got called on it and you need it now to prove your assertions re Reddish. You’ve been insisting he was a “salary dump” last year, even though Dallas played Dinwiddie a ton in the playoffs last year and repaid him this year. (I think. Not going to double check. Doesn’t matter anyway.)
It’s fine if you don’t like the guy. You’re human.
****************************
“The fact that we canāt even get the fake first-rounder we traded for him back in a trade says it.”
The trade deadine is months away. KB isn’t ESPN.
Welcome on the Kenrich Williams’ train guys, it’s nice to have company… š
I’m not surprised or too worried about yesterday’s game, it was against an opponent in our “tier”, desperate for a win and with features that we’ve always suffered.
Game like this, against a team of “equal level” will always be 50-50 and this time we took the short straw.
Maybe it will help focus for the Bulls game.
Hopefully Glue Grimes will be back soon, Mitch’s groin will heal and we can go back to our… better 9-men rotation š
If you want to analyze Cam’s game for NY, forget about his scoring and usage.
Cam is not an Obi type player that’s only going to score in transition, on back cuts and open 3s. Obi “has” to be assisted or needs a great matchup to score. Cam can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot any time he wants. In fact, that’s the skill that gives him both his potential as a scorer and leads to the extra boneheaded shots and TOs. He hasn’t figure out the balance yet.
My point being, in NY he was the 4th option behind Randle, Brunson, and RJ. So he didn’t have the ball in his hands to create as much in terms of shots or assists. Otherwise, he’d easily be able to score 20 points per 36 without much decline in his TS% (which has been more than fine in NY over the 2 years). That’s why I was complaining about RJ’s usage. He’s hasn’t been as efficient but has the ball too much. Of course, you’d also get a proportional increase in the number of head shaking TOs and bad shots until he figures it all out.
The same would not be true of a guy like Obi. If you wanted Obi to score more points consistently, he’d have to put the ball on the floor, but he can’t. His TS% would plummet.
TNFH, would you trade Randle for Porzingis straight up?
“Youāve been insisting he was a āsalary dumpā last year, even though Dallas played Dinwiddie a ton in the playoffs last year and repaid him this year.”
This is how the trade was widely referred to in the media: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/05/dallas-mavericks-spencer-dinwiddie-kristaps-porzingis-trade-playoffs
Dinwiddie was playing terribly for Washington when it was consummated.
It’s true, I don’t like Porzingis owing to credible sexual assault allegations among other, less important things.
But he is playing NBA basketball well this year. Cam Reddish is not doing that, and never has.
“The trade deadine is months away. KB isnāt ESPN.”
Put some skin in the game then if you’re going to die on this hill and insist everyone else is the idiot: what are we getting back for Cam Reddish? Surely there will be a bidding war for this budding superstar!
What Strat said two posts up.
If you’re going to play Reddish, it’s silly to play him in the “stand in the corner” role. Grimes looks like he might be excellent in that role and IQ even did pretty good duty in it. It’s not Cam Reddish’s thing. Grimes moves without the ball significantly better from that position than Cam does and can generate a few better shots from the stand in the corner position. I mean, clearly, if the role is “stand in the corner,” Grimes is your guy over Cam.
But I repeat — both can play. Even at the same time!!
“I donāt like Porzingis owing to credible sexual assault allegations among other, less important things.”
OK, then. Finally.
“Put some skin in the game then if youāre going to die on this hill and insist everyone else is the idiot”
I’m not dying on any hill and I’m not remotely calling anyone else an idiot.
“Obi āhasā to be assisted or needs a great matchup to score. Cam can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot any time he wants.”
Strat, it just took me about 15 seconds to find Cam’s FG% on unassisted 2PA and 3PA.
Before I reveal them, do you want to hazard a guess?
“Iām not dying on any hill and Iām not remotely calling anyone else an idiot.”
What do you think Cam Reddish will fetch in a trade?
Strat, it just took me about 15 seconds to find Camās FG% on unassisted 2PA and 3PA.
******************************
These are deployment-dependent numbers.
What do you think Cam Reddish will fetch in a trade?
***********************************8
No idea. Hopefully a 1. Let’s see how the time between now and the deadline shakes out. Can’t see that putting him in purgatory helps his trade value.
If I was the GM of another team, I’d be doing my homework and figuring out how much money he wants and how much clubbing he’s doing (assuming I didn’t already know this stuff.) I’d have no problem giving up a top-15 protected 1 for him if my homework panned out. If what I hear is crazy talk, I move on.
If he was in like his second year, I’d give up a top-15 protected 1 for him without blinking. His real value now, though, depends a whole lot on his and his agent’s expectations. If they’re nuts, his trade value is very low. They might be nuts.
He’s still a player with significant upside. But with risk. If you can’t stomach risk, you’re in the wrong business.
How the hell are numbers on UNASSISTED FGA “deployment-dependent?”
Those are definitionally the shots that are not deployment-dependent. They’re the “created” shots, the ones Strat (and you) are saying Cam can hit at a high rate.
How can we better deploy Cam such that his numbers on these shots will be better? Will his future team deploy him this way, and if so, then what will his FG% on unassisted FGA be?
Itās an interesting question, would you trade Randle for Porzingis straight up.
Porzingis makes $10M more per season, but his contract expires after next season. Juliusā contract has the significantly lower AAV but runs for two more seasons beyond that.
Thatās the only reason Iād trade Randle for Porzingis, because KPās contract is shorter. Otherwise theyāre relatively similar players in terms of overall impact, but Randle is durable while Porzingis misses large portions of every season.
How the hell are numbers on UNASSISTED FGA ādeployment-dependent?ā
Because they’re dependent on where you’re standing on the floor? And where you’re standing on the floor when you get the ball? And whether you’re moving or not when you get the ball?
Your creation efforts start from certain places on the floor. Those places are deployment-dependent.
Cam Reddish is not deployed properly in the “stand in the corner” position. (*) This is blatantly obvious.
(*) And not just for pure X and O reasons. If you have a guy who tends to mentally drift — assuming that’s true — why would you stick him in the corner with nothing to do but stand?
So what will Cam’s FG% on unassisted FGA be when his true powers are unleashed?
I’m not sure if Reddish’s brain dead creation efforts in the half court will ever be outweighed by his creation abilities. He was making progress on wiping out the bullshit, but not enough progress on creating shots. The Knicks on the other hand, in an effort to wipe out the bullshit, were tying his hands too much. Pointless to have him stand in the corner.
I’m absolutely certain he’s a plus-plus creator with the ball in the open floor. The latter isn’t “enough,” though, to be sure.
Here are two very similarly impactful players, which one is better?
https://stathead.com/tiny/qR830
I mean, are we really debating what we’re debating here?
I’d prefer Knox because he doesn’t come with an army of fans who insist all of his coaches have been suppressing his true power.
All the attorneys I know seem to be pretty busy. They say stuff like āI canāt listen to your demo track, Donnie, I have to read a 104 page briefā and āI donāt have time to like your instagram pics DW, I have to prep for trialā. But now Iām starting to think thatās all a ruse and maybe they just donāt like me.
“Donnie Walsh says:
December 22, 2022 at 13:14
All the attorneys I know seem to be pretty busy. They say stuff like āI canāt listen to your demo track, Donnie, I have to read a 104 page briefā and āI donāt have time to like your instagram pics DW, I have to prep for trialā. But now Iām starting to think thatās all a ruse and maybe they just donāt like me.”
Now that’s funny!
I have no idea how you can be certain that he’s a plus plus creator with the ball in his hands when he hasn’t been that in college or his 1st four years in the NBA.
howdy downtown doogie brown (that just rolls off the tongue doesn’t it š )…
sorry for letting my therapy stuff bleed in to the thread…this is the thing:
https://www.centreforchange.ca/images/ClientFollowUpResources/CPT-Patient-Workbook-Dec-2016-revised-9.2018_2.pdf
basically it’s a “process” for addressing past significant trauma (for me it was getting mugged my sophomore year in college while vacationing in St. Thomas and having my skull cracked)…
truth is – unresolved trauma doesn’t go away…it festers and infects…
i’ve blocked, buried, avoided addressing the trauma event for decades and decades…the affects though of not dealing with trauma is that it greatly influences your beliefs and behavior…
the event altered me physically, mentally and emotionally…
right now i’m trying to convince myself that it isn’t my fault that the incident occurred…that is not as easy as it would seem…
good news – i am much less angry these days, and that’s a good thing…i remember back in march when i first started engaging in therapy, the psychologist had me using this daily app to monitor my emotions – i was angry all the time, like every day, that was the most significant emotion i felt…
i’m much better now, but, still slogging through therapy one tortuous emotionally invasive worksheet at a time…
Following Noble’s link on yesterday’s thread, it looks like Dolan is still at it.
Weird that this loss has triggered such a heated Cam debateā¦
Like kba said, this game was all about the turnovers. We actually shot much better from 2 and 3.
But our shitty, standstill passing in the half court was really tested against their length. Grimes is our only guy who moves without the ball, and he was out. So they got easy buckets off turnovers and actually matched our usually superior rebounding.
As for trades, thereās not much out there. Kinrich W. could be a good option if they basically do a Cam swap.
Hard pass on Ross and Thybulleāwe donāt need to get worse. Iād just as soon get Obi rolling again by giving him backup 3 minutes.
I can see us trading for Burks but heās a bit long in the tooth.
Iām pretty sure we will trade Cam for something, though, as heās probably still sitting because they donāt want to risk an injury (meaning a trade is probably close).
This is correct, so no need to debate if the Knicks are going to trade for Burks.
@Ess: “Weird that this loss has triggered such a heated Cam debateā¦”
– Hahaha. No doubt.
@Ess: “Grimes is our only guy who moves without the ball, and he was out.”
– Yes. This is the thing to work on going forward.
Even Brunson can be guilty of dribble-dribble-shoot-shoot, especially when he gets bodied and frustrated like last night. I think we’ve all agreed Thibs is not gonna X and O an innovative offense this late in his tenure/life, so Leon should be looking for guys who have learned to move without the ball from their previous coaches (like in high school?).
Better yet, Thibs should invite Clyde to the shootarounds or just show the MSG broadcasts with Clyde’s commentary during film sessions. I guarantee no player has seen their own game through Clyde’s eyes, and they would prolly learn a lot.
The Cam debate doesnāt break down along traditional KB lines. You have an E/Strat alliance and then a JK47/Noble/Z-Man alliance.
So at least thatās refreshing
Oh goodie, another E thread hijacking.
I suppose I should be glad it’s not politics like some of our previous hijackers, but it’s still tedious, repetitive, and purposefully contentious.
I think we were a few unforced errors and one nut sack punch away from a win last night. That’s not so bad in a very competitive league against a quite good and desperate team.
Just yesterday Chicago beat Atlanta, Indiana beat Boston, and (hee hee) Sacramento crushed the Lakers.
With only the eye test to qualify, it seems that teams are starting to scheme against Jalen. Let’s hope he (and Thibs) add a few twists to combat that. I don’t think we have any more eight game winning streaks if he gets consistently neutralized, even with IQ (and to a lesser extent RJ) rising from the dead.
Depends on perspective, really.
“Cam Reddish sucks, RJ Barrett sucks” gets kind of old, too. (As did “Kristaps Porzingis sucks,” but that’s kind of old news by now — for the most part.)
(1) I like how our 8 game win streak means little to nothing but 1 loss without our best perimeter defender and without Mitch down the stretch is supposed to be telling.
(2) If IQ doesn’t travel, Randle grabs a ball going between his legs, or Randle’s layup attempt doesn’t slip out of his hands… we might win. And that’s just the stuff I saw in the 4 minutes of the game I watched.
(3) We’ve seen plenty of zone this year. We put up a 120 ORtg in this game. I’m not worried about the zone.
(4) I wouldn’t mind seeing Cam. Don’t much care that he was nailed to the bench either.
“All the attorneys I know seem to be pretty busy. They say stuff like āI canāt listen to your demo track, Donnie, I have to read a 104 page briefā and āI donāt have time to like your instagram pics DW, I have to prep for trialā. But now Iām starting to think thatās all a ruse and maybe they just donāt like me.”
I swear I’m doing a lot of stuff between posts
Anyway, when Cam’s latent powers are unleashed and he’s a stud for some other team I’ll still be here and anyone who wants to can dunk all over me.
A far more interesting and relevant question than anything to do with Cam Reddish: we might just luck out and get a pick in the 11-14 range, who should we target? There’s a semi-decent selection of wings.
We’ll probably miss out on Dick, George, Whitmore, and both Tompsons, but one or more of Black, Whitehead, Mitchell, Howard, and Sensabaugh could be available.
Rival law firms? š
Dick, George, Whitmore, and Tompsons
v.
Black, Whitehead, Mitchell, Howard, and Sensabaugh
Yeah, but are you listening to Donnie’s demo track, or liking his instagram pics? š
In 10 December games where we have gone 8-2, RJ’s stats have been pretty good. In 36 mpg he’s putting up 22/6/3 on a .566 TS%, including 50% from 2 and 37% from 3.
That seems like a place where he could stabilize for the rest of the year. Not sure if that makes him worth $25M AAV but it’s certainly not the disaster it looked like in the first month of the season.
Sounds like we are holding out for a 1st for Cam (Lakers still want him) but I would settle for their two early 2ndsā¦ we could walk away with guys like Leonard Miller, Terrence Shannon, Baba Miller or Emoni Bates just in the 2nd round. This regime really shouldnāt underrate 2nd rounders anymore.
I would take a second of whatever the Laker’s team dinner is tonight for Cam…
As did āKristaps Porzingis sucks,ā but thatās kind of old news by now ā for the most part.
LOL. No one ever randomly posted that. The only time anyone brought up the fact that KP wasn’t very good after he left the Knicks was when a certain someone kept insisting that he was really good and that it was all Doncic’s fault he wasn’t.
Re: potential lottery picks, I think Gradey Dick could be there between 11-14ā¦ I just donāt know how his game projects at the next level. Not sure the defense will be up to snuff, but heās been terrific on offense this far as a freshman.
There should be another Tari Eason type available in that range or after…almost always is…
cap space is only as valuable as you can use it… and there really isn’t anyone in FA that seems worth it for this year and probably for the next couple as well… which is why if you have an albratross and not really getting anything back it doesn’t make sense just to dump someone even if Randle was 2021 Randle…
gradey dick is one of my sleepers.. and should be climbing .. he reminds me a bit of like mike dunleavy… good instincts and ball skills and can light it up… he is a bit soft though so not sure if he can hold up at SF but he does a lot of things well as is…
i also like maxwell lewis and terquavian smith … a couple returning guys who are providing decent depth that this draft desperately needed…. i feel a lot better about our mid firsts now…
yikes, guy’s name sounds like some kind of painful ailment…
I like Anthony Black and Gradey Dick.
Right now, by my count the picks will be 13 and 15. Still early, but I don’t expect either to be there by those picks. Dick might be. I’d be shocked if Black was.
āgradey dick is one of my sleepers.. and should be climbing ..ā
Haha. GD must become a Knick just for the fun of it. Leon make it so.
“yikes, guyās name sounds like some kind of painful ailmentā¦”
Hopefully his shot doesn’t have peyronie’s disease…
Just googled the guy. Looks like a heady player with a lot of hustle as per our earlier flame wars. Perfect.
Havenāt done that much research on the draft yet, but would love Dick if he were there. I imagine he wonāt be. Big fan of Sensabaughās, and thereās other guys who are interesting in the back half of the first like Terquavion, Terrence Shannon, Leonard Miller, Colby Jones, Maxwell Lewis, and Jordan Hawkins
I donāt care if heās good at basketball or not, I want the Knicks to draft Gradey Dick just for the lulz
Can’t wait for our Gradey Dick Grimes backcourt. Maybe we can hang on to Don’t Google too.
E coming out firing after the Knicks lose 1 game lol.
i haven’t been super close to college aside from monitoring a handful of guys but here’s who i have in my top 10 so far:
1. Victor Wembanyama – i’m not sure if he’s a slam dunk.. but he’s consensus right now… tall guys with foot injuries and i don’t really like how he shoots 3s so much and pretty terrible at it but that’s nitpicking…
2. Scoot Henderson – tearing up the gleague.. and if what jalen green and kuminga and daniels did is any indication.. he might have a case for #1…
3. Cam Whitmore – out of all the injured prospects coming in he’s actually delivered on that promise… tremendous top 3 all with superduperstar potential…
4. Keyonte George – reminds me of a bigger eric gordon… might turn out similar hopefully without the injuries..
5. Amen Thompson – this could be an alltime top 5 if Amen and Ausar are the real deal… they have a couple things against namely their age and whatever their doing is so hard to calibrate… but they do look the part but just like kuminga i don’t think anyone has a real handle on how good they will be…
6. Maxwell Lewis – big drop off but he has potential.. a lot like Jalen Wiliams .. long arms.. good ball skills… low release on his jumpshot and long strides which will get punished in the pro’s but that’s being nitpicky… the other stuff may be able to carry…
7. Terquavian Smith – a true gunner but a bit of a small frame… he balls tho and very active around the court…
8. Cason Wallace – pretty low upside here but as close to deanthony melton as there is for all the analytically inclined…
9. Gradey Dick – he plays a bit upright and is a bit soft as he can get pushed around but he’s got other things going for him where that might not be a big deal…
10. Nick Smith/Dariq Whitehead – super disappointing so far and dunno where they’ll end up but could be injuries.. might go the way of cole anthony and zaire williams and aj griffin… there are other names more deserving but they are worth monitoring to see if they get it together because it’s relatively weak after this…
I watched like five minutes of Scoot a couple months ago
Slam dunk future All-NBA, as obvious a future star as Zion or AD
If Victor gets outmuscled by defenders in the pros how is he going to score? I mean is his handle good, or is it good for a guy his size in a mediocre league? I’ve seen like 3 minutes of his highlights.
That said, his wingspan is absolutely preposterous. If he’s fairly mobile-and all the scouting I’ve read raves about his mobility-and he has any idea at all how to play defense he’s going to be a real fucking problem on the defensive side of things.
I don’t want Dick.
Victor’s handle is absurdly good for someone over 7 feet tall. And he seems to hit threes with ease. No idea if he’s a stellar defender in terms of system, but he blocks shots from behind like he’s picking grapes.
Z-man, that was a very intriguing comparison. I was really shocked that Knoxās PER (12.2) is better than Camās (10.7) because I tend to think PER correlates reasonably with value GMs put on a player and I think of Cam as having more trade value than Knox. But these are low numbers for young players and GMs pay for potential as well as performance.
Overall I did like Knoxās statistics better but he actually still plays less minutes than Cam this year so neither player is considered good enough to be a team mainstay by his coach. Also, I suspect that Knoxās defense is considerably worse than Camās but thatās hard to conclude because overall Knoxās numbers are much better than in previous seasons and maybe his defense is better too.
This doesnāt make me think that Cam wonāt get better, but it does make me think his minutes arenāt unfair. And if you are going by numbers, I suspect Sims is much better than either and he is the one getting more playing time with Obi out.
Wizards should all out tank and field KP & Wembanyama. Just imagine how good they’ll be for the 4 games both are healthy!!
On the “Barrett sucks” subtheme, a nice puff pastry from Katz in the Athletic. For those unable to access, the two points made are 1) Barrett sucks at the start of every season, but especially sucked this year as he was in shape but didn’t play actual basketball during the offseason to avoid injury during the contract negotiations, and 2) he’s trending up (duh).
Also next season he should play a lot during the summer since he has his contract, so if he sucks again to start the season we can be even meaner about him (that last part is mine).
https://theathletic.com/4028626/2022/12/22/rj-barrett-knicks-heating-up/
This one quote may give some hope:
Over his past seven games, heās averaging 24.9 points on 52 percent 2-point shooting and 40 percent on 3-pointers.
and this:
But even in those situations, his decision-making has changed. Heās taking 35 percent more shots in the paint. And heās doing it in a more skilled fashion.
RJ is up to 63% at the rim by basketballref’s numbers.
Among guys who are even semi-realistic for us Keyonte George is the apple of my eye, but I see no way he falls to 11 when all is said and done. Does too many things too well.
There’s a better chance of us getting Dick.
“Thereās a better chance of us getting Dick.”
no pun intended
being skinny isn’t actually too much of a concern for a big or anyone.. the game isn’t like the 80s where you need to wrestle with people for boards…. and even skinny guys did ok…
just think about what happens on the basketball court… where are the situations where strength matters more than quickness and length? all the quick twitch stuff and length helps you get to more balls… deny drives… shoot over people …
strength helps… but that is literally the only reliable thing that gets better over time…. kd.. ad… bosh… kg…mcgrady… pau.. kobe were all rail thin coming in and that didn’t stop them from dominating from the jump… and when they got stronger and filled in it helped them get better as they got slower….
Victor is so athletic for his size which is what makes him such an incredible prospect… the fear is that he turns into just another kp… someone who hasn’t developed the foundational elements of a big to carry teams…. just standing outside the 3pt line would be capping his ceiling unless he turns into KAT… that and the health risk which is way higher than normal….
This isnāt the first stretch of decent play weāve seen from RJ. In fact thatās kind of his thing: come out and play horribly for about 20 games, then have a decent run of games that makes it look like he has turned the corner. Thus far in his career he has not been able to sustain these periods of strong play, and has always ended up regressing and ending up with mediocre-to-bad overall numbers. It wasnāt unexpected that heād have a nice run like this.
Maybe this time will be different, but so far season 4 of this show is playing out pretty similarly to seasons 1-3.
not sure who the guy is playing quarterback for the new york jets…I’m digging his beard, tats, and the fact he played in the canadian football league…
I am now entertained…
E threw a 3-1 fastball down the middle and y’all took a called strike 2.
If there is one thing Iāve learned from having actual young guys who need development on the one NBA team that I follow closely, it is that development can take a long time and still happen even when many have up on future growth. And itās not a linear process at all. So I havenāt given up on RJ. He could still turn out to be worth more than his salary and make us all believers.
If RJ is the leading minutes getter on a 19-15 team after playing like dogshit for 15 games or so, we must be missing something. Mitch isn’t Wilt, Randle isn’t LeBron, Grimes/Cam isn’t Michael Jordan, and Brunson, bless his heart, isn’t CP3. And no one on our bench is all that good either.
I assumed he did it on purpose, but otherwise yeah real missed opportunity