Knicks Morning News (2022.12.06)

Thanks guys for all the Bruce comments (pros and cons), it has been my favorite thread in a while.

I agree with those who think the first 5 albums were the best.

Born in the USA, while still good, is not at that level of consistency but made him a planetary star and to me personally it had the merit of finally allowing him to come to Italy, where my 18-years old rowdy self has been elated and raptured by his 4 hours concert*.
An epiphany, as much as an 18-year-old may have epiphanies…
I’m getting kind of teary-eyed just thinking about it.

* Since then I saw him live 4 more times but that “magic” is unreachable… close but no cigar, just as the Knicks 🙂

Great music talk!

Early Bird – I don’t agree this is RJ’s best season. As I said at some point, I was sick for the entire month of October. The straw I can reach for at this point is that he has had the flu for three weeks.

Bruce has done some great 21st century stuff. The Rising still knocks me out, though at least some of that is tied up in what the album was about, when it came out, and how raw the wounds of 9/11 still were around here. Magic is pretty fantastic, too, and a lot of the other recent albums have at least a few songs I listen to often.

Naturally Deuce hit 4 threes in the G League last night. Obviously there are legitimately enormous differences but a disparity like this still strikes me as weird.

I went to the same high school as Bruce. Of course I love it (not) when people ask me if I know him, and then I have to remind them that the man is 73 years old, which I clearly am not (I’m a super-young-looking 58.) I did have a couple of his teachers who had hung out for a while, though. He used to come and hang out at the Jersey Freeze in Freehold (and sometimes gave people rides home), back when Jersey Freeze was still on the circle next to the Freehold Racetrack instead of having been usurped by a mall. I very well know the bus station and the textile mill mentioned in “My Hometown,” and I’ve dined many times at Federici’s downtown next to the American hotel that is owned by the family of Danny Federici, one of Bruce’s high school bandmates. Great New Jersey/New York pizza, great Jersey atmosphere, and they don’t take credit cards.

I’ve seen him many, many times, most recently at Nats Park in September 2016. The man still puts on an amazing 3-4 hour show, even in his 70s. I can’t seem to get away from “Racing in the Street” or the whole “Darkness on the Edge of Town” album, nor “The River” (which came out when I was in high school). Also love “Nebraska.” But I also love his much more recent stuff that not too many people know.

Lastly, I was hoping for a Michelle Obama/Bruce Springsteen ticket back in 2020 (I would have voted for that ticket in a heartbeat), but alas, it was not to be.

Painful admission- I’m beginning to wonder whether RJ’s biggest issue is sharing the same spots on the floor as Randle, or is it just him being inefficient?

He was drafted #3, so the expectation is to at least be very good. And very good, great, and elite players find ways to adjust and make it work. Although- the coaching staff is partly responsible for making it work as well. So the question for me is- do we move Randle and insert a 4 who spaces the floor better? Or do we move on from RJ in favor of a bigger wing who can knock shots down and play defense? I’m torn because I really wanna see RJ our there with more room to operate alongside Brunson. But I also like how well Randle has taken to a 2nd or 3rd option role, even though he is still frustrating to watch sometimes.

This team shouldn’t be this inconsistent and borderline bad. I mean- I can accept being last in our division considering the other teams in it. But the Atlantic Division should be like the NFC East is right now with every team playing well enough to make the playoffs. It’s getting harder to follow already because I can’t watch this team without thinking about who needs to go or what changes to the lineups should be made. Or..or..WHY IN THE HELL IS THIBS TRYING TO TURN HARTENSTEIN INTO MITCH?? Makes it hard to enjoy the games. *shrugs*

Bruce has done some great 21st century stuff.

Yes, I totally agree.
As JK pointed yesterday, after a clear drop post “Born In the USA” (Tunnel Of Love, Human Touch, Lucky Town) he did a lot of very good/great albums/songs both in studio and live (Live in New York City is unbelievable).

Missed the last couple of threads. I’ve never been a huge Springsteen fan but back in 2011, my buddy had tickets to see him at Giants stadium (this was before Clarence passed away). So I went. Bruce performed the entire Born to Run album and let me tell you, even if you are not a Springsteen fan, seeing him live at Giants stadium in New Jersey? That will make you a believer even if just for one night.

Forgot to mention that I won a spelling bee at Bruce’s middle school, St. Rose of Lima’s at the corner of South Street and McLean. 🙂

And, yes, what walkerandbender said.

Dancing In the Dark is also pretty good from that middle era. Upbeat rhythm with sadder coming of age lyrics always got me. His performance of that song on his Broadway show is great. And I know people aren’t big fans but Brilliant Disguise is still pretty great at least lyrically to me.

Do we think if Randle keeps up his strong output on O and the team is sputtering that there is a trade market for him to a contender?

Also why aren’t we talking about playing a small, better POA defensive lineup more with JB, IQ, Grimes, JR, Mitch? That seems to be the best Knicks lineup to me. Is Grimes too small to play the 3?

Reposting from last thread.

the list of guys of who had been at one point perennial KB whipping boys for being high volume mediocre efficiency guys is quite long.. and it includes the likes of donovan mitchell… jaylen brown… devin booker… and to a lesser extent guys like deaaron fox and jamaal murray coming up very recently… i know this because i was likely leading the charge in being their #1 critic….

So let’s compare their age 21 seasons: https://stathead.com/tiny/pH4lQ

RJ has the worst 2P%, 3P%, FT%, steals, blocks, and 2nd worst assists. He has the worst eFG%, TS%, BPM (2nd worst OBPM and DBPM), and VORP. And while all of the other players had nearly league average or above eFG+ (ranging from 96 to 104) and TS+ (ranging from 96-101, RJ’s were 88 and 90.

RJ’s age 21 season was far behind those players age 21 season and I’m sure we can say the same at the end of this year about his age 22 season.

Whether you like Bruce or not (I never got into the Jersey Shore anthem stuff like Rosalita, Jungleland, Born to Run…maybe Thunder Road was my fave of that bunch…but I admired him and came around late, even like those songs more in retrospect) the interview is a masterpeice on both his and Howard’s part (and I’m not a Howard fan either.).

Maybe I’m a sap, but Bruce seems about as unaffected by great success and wealth as one could possibly be. He’s also got his demons, but even the way he grappled with them came across as pure and genuine.

I always tell my kids the proverb that wealth not about how much you have but how little you need. Something about Bruce suggests that he needs far less than he has.

I would love for us to run that lineup.

I also think it is time to let D Rose go and give the back up PG job full time to McBride.

Our offense is actually not the issue with this team. It’s defense. More McBride, IQ, Grimes and/or Cam helps us in that department. Plus I believe McBride’s offense will come around if given consistent NBA minutes.

But his defense we need far more than D Rose’s offense, which has been not that great this season anyways. Plus, we can probably still get something for D Rose just off name/reputation alone for a contender looking to shore up their bench for a playoff run.

Steps to improve the team

1. Trade Rose, give back up PG minutes to McBride
2. Curtail RJ’s minutes and give more to Grimes and/or Cam.
3. Play IQ more minutes somehow

I’m agnostic about giving Obi more minutes over Randle. Honestly, I don’t know if Obi will ever be more than a good bench piece and Obi playing more doesn’t help our defense. But both Randle and RJ need to be held accountable by curtailing their minutes if they’re being selfish/chucking. And the thing is, we got players that can take some of their minutes if that is the case, so just do it already Thibs!

Yeah, djphan isn’t wrong that there are players that looked like chuckers to begin their careers who went on to become very good players. But to a man, they were starting at materially higher baselines than RJ.

Booker had a 100 TS+ at age 19. Brown was at 98 as a 20 year-old rookie, then hit 101 the next year. The pattern is similar with basically all the other guys–they had long been at least decently efficient by year 4 and/or age 22.

If RJ makes the kind of leap they made…he’ll still be a bit below average as a scorer. He’s also not a special playmaker and I think we all agree his defense isn’t a game changer, so I’m just not seeing what we’re left with *even if* he makes something of a scoring leap.

If he can actually get to the 100 TS+ range, I don’t disagree there’s some value to usage soaking–generating league average offense isn’t the easiest thing to do. But again, league average these days is around .570 and I’m just not seeing the path for RJ to get there.

So re: RJ, the question remains: why does a very highly regarded (by most discerning standards) win-or-bust coach play him oodles of minutes even in the face of the mountain of data that suggests it might not be conducive to winning?

I have only one answer that makes perfect sense:

Thibs sees RJ as his second coming of Jimmy Butler.

And there’s some (but not a lot of) merit to that. Butler did not start playing big minutes until he was 23 years old. Who knows who or what he would have been if he entered the league at 19 years old? He was a very good but not dominant college player in 3 years at Marquette, better than Quentin Grimes but nothing that suggested future MVP candidate.

I say this because everything that Thibs does with RJ suggests that he wants him to take on the role of all-purpose 2-way wing.

And once Thibs gets a vision in his head, you need a stick of dynamite and a machete to dislodge it.

So one of two things is going to happen: RJ will start living up to Thib’s aspirations, or he won’t and Thibs’ stubbornness will eventually get him fired, and then a new coach (and FO?) will deploy RJ more in line with who he is. Which is not Jimmy Butler.

>1. Trade Rose, give back up PG minutes to McBride
2. Curtail RJ’s minutes and give more to Grimes and/or Cam.
3. Play IQ more minutes somehow<

I'd sign off on this in a heartbeat.

Long term

1. Move Randle with the ultimate goal of a starting PF that can defend and spread the floor. That could take multiple moves and involve getting back multiple players now, but I think what we want back now is at least better shooting, better defense, and smaller contracts that can moved later if necessary (a 3&D role player would be fine). Randle is not a dependable #1 or #2 option, doesn't fit with Mitch, and isn't good enough defensively every night.

2. Give RJ the rest of the year to prove there's a chance he can become a #2 option, but if we are still seeing the same very inconsistent shooting, lapses on defense, foolish Randle-like drives into double teams that end in errant shots and TOs etc… then try to cut the losses and move him.

3. The excess 1st round picks are there for a trade or to move up in the draft. We obviously aren't going to draft all those players in the 1st round when we already have a ton of young players. It's time to try to consolidate into an upgrade somewhere while continuing to draft also.

4. Like everyone else that needs to trade for a star or a star free agent signing or some lottery and draft luck over the next 2-3 years….PRAY.

“So I went. Bruce performed the entire Born to Run album and let me tell you, even if you are not a Springsteen fan, seeing him live at Giants stadium in New Jersey? That will make you a believer even if just for one night.”

I was there too at age 14. My dad wasn’t gonna miss it for the world and while I wasn’t terribly interested, he was positive it would make me a convert.

Dad was right.

“I also think it is time to let D Rose go and give the back up PG job full time to McBride.”

Couldn’t agree more, swifty. While “good” DRose is a helpful backup, he just doesn’t generate any excitement, especially now that we have seen how Deuce just changes the defensive dynamic when he’s out there.

And I will continue to believe that Deuce can shoot better than he has (well he couldn’t shoot worse!) but really, the dude is clanking the same wide-open 3’s he makes with ease in the G-League…he just needs to see a few of them go down.

But despite the shooting, he gives you so much heart and soul out there that I could watch him all day. Whereas a DRose that is missing shots is a ghastly player.

I don’t find the “why is Thibs playing RJ if he’s bad” question very interesting. We have no idea what front office politics might be going on there, and Thibs has played bad players a lot in the past.

Letting a guy’s minutes dip below 30 a few months after you gave him $100M is not the best organizational look. We should still do it if the goal is to maximize wins obviously, but it’d hardly be surprising if there were non-basketball considerations at play. It’d be surprising if there weren’t.

“Do we think if Randle keeps up his strong output on O and the team is sputtering that there is a trade market for him to a contender?”

This is the $64,000 question of this season IMO. Randle has absolutely improved and he deserves credit for that–more than he’s being given in some circles.

Unfortunately I still think he’s an archetype of player that teams aren’t looking for, and thus will still not want on an expensive long-term deal.

It’s looking like he’s simply not a credible stretch 4, and while he has lowered his usage it’s still quite high relatively speaking. Teams don’t want to give a high share of their offense to a guy who only returns about league average efficiency, and doesn’t space the floor while doing it.

Because he’s not a stretch 4, his best position on offense is the 5 which comes with basically disastrous defensive implications. You can play him at the 4 if you have one of the precious few stretch 5s in the game, but now we’re talking about basically building a team around Julius Randle and no one is going to do that.

Again, he deserves credit for making changes to his game and I think he’s a talented player. He’s just not talented in the specific ways teams are looking for in today’s NBA, so I think we’re stuck with him.

It’s a pretty shitty situation and I don’t know what I’d do about it if I had Leon Rose’s job, because “trade Randle” is a lot easier to say on a message board than it is to do.

“Also why aren’t we talking about playing a small, better POA defensive lineup more with JB, IQ, Grimes, JR, Mitch? That seems to be the best Knicks lineup to me. Is Grimes too small to play the 3?”

Grimes’ size at the 3 isn’t ideal, but the main reason we’re not seeing this is because it doesn’t contain the guy who plays 34 minutes a night. So there just aren’t many opportunities.

Comparing RJ’s current season to Butler’s age 23 season (since he barely played the year before) doesn’t look promising: https://stathead.com/tiny/8oJHa

The shooting numbers across the board all favor Butler including a 102 eFG+ and 107 TS+. Butler has better per game steal and block numbers even though he only played 26MPG and he has a slightly better TRB%. RJ’s AST% is clearly better at least.

“Yeah, djphan isn’t wrong that there are players that looked like chuckers to begin their careers who went on to become very good players. But to a man, they were starting at materially higher baselines than RJ.”

I agree with everything you are said in your post, but I want to qualify it.

My repeated theme has been last year Randle and RJ had higher usages and low quality shots than we’d want ideally in part because we had no PG for much of the season. Someone had to create their own shots. Those created shots are generally not going to be of the same quality as shots created within a well functioning offense, especially when the players can’t shoot and there’s no space. So whatever the TS% said, they were better than that.

Enter Brunson who can both run the offense effectively and score enough to ease the burden on Randle and RJ and improve their shot quality.

My theory is working fine with Randle. They were able to make some adjustments to his shot selection, reduce his role running the offense and usage, and we are getting a more efficient player.

For some reason it hasn’t worked with RJ. I’ve been blaming a lot of it on his “I’m a star mentality”. That why he plays sick, wants to defend the best player, keep chucking bricks etc.. I still think that’s part of it (and Thibs seemingly won’t put a leash on him), but he still should be doing better than the sh$t show we are seeing so far. I was expecting a TS$ of around 54% and had some hope that he made enough improvements to inch higher than that. No such luck so far.

“RJ’s age 21 season was far behind those players age 21 season and I’m sure we can say the same at the end of this year about his age 22 season.”

i wasn’t saying that he was exactly the same as them… the point is that they struggled up to and through their age 22 seasons… they have some things going for them that RJ doesn’t but he’s not that far behind… multiple all-nba first teams are probably not in his future but if these guys who you would have to trade multiple firsts in order to attain can struggle at that age then there is hope…

here’s the age 22 TS’s for that group btw…
Jaylen Brown – .547
Donovan Mitchell – .537
Devin Booker – .584
Deaaron Fox – .558
Jaylen Brown – .559

RJ’s would be second worst on this list if you gave him his career 3pt mark (.540) but he wouldn’t be that far behind some of these others altho Booker would be hard to catch….

and if you expand that list:

Jrue Holiday – .496
Andrew Wiggins – .505
Zach Lavine – .499
Demar Derozan – .503
Bradley Beal – .547
Mike Conley – .526
Paul George – .531

in the cases of Holiday.. Lavine and Derozan… they struggled even worse than RJ on the whole up to that point in their career… if you want to go back even further we can add more names….

and again this isn’t to say that anything is guaranteed or things will happen… improving and fixing things requires some active steps that are never guaranteed to occur…. but this isn’t some unprecedented thing for a guy to struggle this much by whatever measure you choose and all of a sudden turn into a good player… if the bar is useful starter then you can probably add a dozen more names….

the key here is establishing that they belong… and there’s a number of metrics you can point to… some combo of USG.. FTR… 2p% are some…. but this isn’t some ntilikina or knox… RJ should have a long career doing something… for the very best of the nba these things come easy and come early… for others it can take a little while to figure it out… the NBA is not a walk in the park..

unfortunately the clock is ticking and RJ is running of outs but he still has plenty left….

Oh wow, mad I missed the Bruce talk. I’m not a super fan by any stretch, but when his stuff HITS it HITS. Not too big on the bombastic stuff, but I love the acoustic records. About two/three weeks ago I REALLY got into Tom Joad and that got me into Devils and Dust. I strongly urge a listen of Reno and Maria’s Room from that record. I never thought I’d be into the more modern stuff, but theres some gems there. Next up will be Western Stars.

Bruce is like Van or Neil or even Bob where you might not like everything from the latest record but there is always at least one track that will floor you. Kind of like they’re just flexing a muscle. And at this point in the game sometimes thats all you need.

Wish tickets were cheaper this time around, I’ve never seen The Bruce live and really want to remedy that ASAP.

“I agree with everything you are said in your post, but I want to qualify it.

My repeated theme has been last year Randle and RJ had higher usages and low quality shots than we’d want ideally in part because we had no PG for much of the season. Someone had to create their own shots.”

I don’t see how this serves as a response to my point, which was that Booker et al. began their careers much more efficiently than RJ. When Devin Booker posted a 100 TS+ as a rookie, I don’t think it was because of the 31 games Eric Bledsoe played that season.

I also don’t think why Randle has benefitted from Brunson’s arrival while RJ hasn’t is much of a mystery. We’ve known for years Randle can be efficient in a circumscribed, play-finisher role. This year his role is a little closer to that than it has been in the past few years, and Brunson probably has a lot to do with that.

RJ on the other hand has never given us any reason to think he could be efficient even if we had a better playmaker. He’s not a good finisher or spot up shooter, so there’s never been a strong theory of the case for why he’d benefit from better point guard play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10UzuQq40Ew

The Dub version of Dancin in the Dark from the 12″ is such a trip.

“I don’t find the “why is Thibs playing RJ if he’s bad” question very interesting. We have no idea what front office politics might be going on there, and Thibs has played bad players a lot in the past.”

I commend you for giving a detailed response to a question you don’t find interesting.

I do find it interesting. For example, one of the “bad” players that Thibs gave a lot of minutes (and a lot of money) to is Andrew Wiggins. He was a big believer in Wiggins and lo and behold, at age 26 he becomes an all-star and key cog on a championship-level team.

Secret Garden has my favorite Clarence solo. I also really like anytime Clarence played with Garcia and the Dead. You can tell they were all really enjoying themselves. This is one of my favorite quotes from them.

Clemons, who was moving on after the dissolution of the E Street Band, suggested that he, Weir and Jerry Garcia move in together and “have a bachelor pad.” Weir says “Jerry and I almost went for it. It would’ve been a lot of fun, but I don’t think anyone would have survived [Laughs]. Jerry was in good shape, but we were doing a little drinking.”

@oaktrees…ditto on those tunes from Devils and Dust…Reno is my favorite…not sure where the inspiration came from on that one…

have you seen the live duo version of Tom Joad with Tom Morello? If not…check that out…

“I don’t see how this serves as a response to my point, which was that Booker et al. began their careers much more efficiently than RJ. When Devin Booker posted a 100 TS+ as a rookie, I don’t think it was because of the 31 games Eric Bledsoe played that season.”

Booker’s extension was widely mocked here at KB. I challenged that POV at the time, and the response was essentially that he was an empty-calories no-D chucker that did not contribute to winning and that wasn’t worth anything near a max contract. Not as dire as Wiggins, but hardly flattering.

“I do find it interesting. For example, one of the “bad” players that Thibs gave a lot of minutes (and a lot of money) to is Andrew Wiggins. He was a big believer in Wiggins and lo and behold, at age 26 he becomes an all-star and key cog on a championship-level team.”

But another one is 37 year-old Jamal Crawford so sometimes he just gives a lot of minutes to players who are bad.

You also can’t just hand wave away the enormously high potential for non-basketball considerations. Conceding that your $100M man sucks is quite a step for an organization. It’s probably not one Thibs can take unilaterally.

Z–man

IMO, you are on point with the Butler comparison. In an interview RJ himself pointed to Butler as a model for his game at the start of the season. Butler is not a good 3 point shooter, but he gets to good spots inside, draws a lot of fouls, and passes well out of it when required. So he’s efficient and well rounded. That was supposedly the goal. I was OK with that that direction. But then he went straight back to chucking 3s, driving into double teams, throwing up trash at the rim instead of passing out of it etc.. The crazy thing is that IMO he has good enough court vision to be a good passer. He just has that star scorer mentality to go along with a sh$t shot and it’s killing him and the team.

PS: Wiggins is playing VERY well. The Warriors did a great job of getting him to put all that talent to good use, but it took a long time.

i wasn’t saying that he was exactly the same as them… the point is that they struggled up to and through their age 22 seasons… they have some things going for them that RJ doesn’t but he’s not that far behind… multiple all-nba first teams are probably not in his future but if these guys who you would have to trade multiple firsts in order to attain can struggle at that age then there is hope…

And I didn’t just bring up their shooting numbers. RJ’s assist and defensive numbers are behind most/all of those players as well.

Feel free to compare those players age 21 seasons: https://stathead.com/tiny/I8fVK

RJ still looks very clearly worse than all of them to me.

even if you are not a Springsteen fan, seeing him live at Giants stadium in New Jersey? That will make you a believer even if just for one night.

I saw him at the old Brendan Byrne Arena circa 1999. I was underwhelmed.

“Feel free to compare those players age 21 seasons: https://stathead.com/tiny/I8fVK”

you should look at it again… RJ has the second best reb per 36…. third best assist per 36 for this cohort and one of the guys he’s behind is a pg…. and it’s not all that different once you get to age 22….

Wow, that Joad was great!

I think I may have told this story before but when I used to run the intern program at my former company, I would start the interviews with some softballs that they were always prepared for. Then I’d throw the curve: “if you had a time machine and could go see any musical act at any point in history, who would you see, and where would you see them?”

One kid said he would see Bruce Springsteen at the Meadowlands.

I said, “look I never judge people based on their musical taste, this question is more to see how you think on your feet. But I just gave you a time machine, and you’re using it to see someone who’s playing next week.”

It was the only wrong answer I ever got. And I had to hire him anyway bc his dad was friends with the branch manager.

My own answer would vary based on my mood that day, but more often than not I went with Talking Heads at CBGB, 1977.

***Born in the USA, while still good, is not at that level of consistency***

The funny thing about the Born in the USA album is that as a whole it is an excellent narrative essay on the negative effects of Reagan-era economic policy on the middle-class, but a lot of the actual songs come off as rather superficial when listened to in the abstract. There’s a song about being horny, and another song about being horny, and a 3 word song about going down, and a homo-erotic song to his guitarist, and a song about roadwork, and another song about being horny, and a song about drinking beer, and a song about picking up underaged girls, and a song about driving around… but together they form a very well-defined picture (cheesy drum pads and all).

Crawford played 20 mpg and was a season remove from 6MoY. That team won 47 games and made the playoffs for the first time in KATs career, and it took other coaches until last year to make it back. Pretty weak example.

“You also can’t just hand wave away the enormously high potential for non-basketball considerations. Conceding that your $100M man sucks is quite a step for an organization. It’s probably not one Thibs can take unilaterally.”

No, but what does that have to do with the discussion? Do you dispute that it would be really dumb for any organization to concede anything about a 22yo that they had enough faith in to give a $25MAAV extension to?

What’s your larger point? Are you insinuating that Thibs is being forced to play RJ big minutes? Or that a “smart” FO should just cut bait like Masai did with Josh Smith?

My larger point is that the gloomy takes on RJ’s future are refutable based on players who have similarly bad openings to their careers who went on to be all-stars.

And I wish you’d stop throwing the $100M figure out as if it were some kind of max deal. It’s John Collins money, and RJ is only 22 years old. It’s right where most FOs felt he belonged. From the Katz pre-extension article:

The Athletic conducted a poll, asking 16 officials in NBA front offices what they would deem a fair number for Barrett in an extension this summer or fall. Responses ranged from $15 million to $30 million a year. No one advocated for the Knicks to give him the max. Exactly half of the responses were a nice, clean four years, $100 million, making it by far the most common proposal from the polled executives.

One high-ranking exec, who said that $25 million a year was reasonable, compared Barrett’s extension negotiations to John Collins’ 2021 free agency. Collins wanted the max but ended up re-signing with the Hawks on a five-year, $125 million contract.

So this isn’t really just a Thibs or Leon thing. The fact that Ainge coveted RJ should be enough to temper the pessimism somewhat.

And what has made guys like Wiggins and Booker blossom is having better (and better paid) players around them. RJ will someday have that (Brunson is a good start but he’s not even a top-10 PG, let alone player, in the NBA.)

you should look at it again… RJ has the second best reb per 36…. third best assist per 36 for this cohort and one of the guys he’s behind is a pg…. and it’s not all that different once you get to age 22….

Yeah, but his shooting is far worse. 2nd worst 2P%, 2nd worst 3P%, and worst FT%, eFG%, and TS%.

>I don’t see how this serves as a response to my point, which was that Booker et al. began their careers much more efficiently than RJ.<

When I look at the stats, I subjectively shade my view based on the coach, role, system, usage, teammates etc..

I ask myself what would this guy do in an average situation, different situation, as opposed to a perfect or horrible situation.

IMO if you want to compare RJ to someone else, you can't just say his TS% was 51.1% and player X was 56.1% without looking at the different situations they were in. RJ and Randle were probably in the worst situation in the entire NBA for their talents last year. It was a nightmare.

With the addition of Brunson. the idea for RJ was simply to shoot fewer of the tough 3s, crazy shots at the rim etc.. because he doesn't have to anymore. Any dimwit can do that much. But not every basketball player grasps that. Melo didn't grasp why long 2s were worse than 3s until he was already washed up.

When a player is taking bad shots because he's the least bad option, you have to live with it. When there are better options and he's still doing it, there's a mental makeup and coaching issue. And that's what I've been complaining about. RJ has that "star scorer" mentality, but it's accompanied by a poor shot. It was OK last year, but this year Thibs is supposed to put leash on him and hasn't so far.

That doesn’t mean will be Booker. But IMO his 51.1% is not an accurate appraisal either if he just straightens out his shot selection a bit.

There is no reason to assume Ainge coveted RJ.

“Coveted” may be too strong of a word, maybe preferred over our other prospects would be more accurate…

The Katz survey still stands, though…and Ainge would likely be in the range, don’t you think?

“What’s your larger point? Are you insinuating that Thibs is being forced to play RJ big minutes? Or that a “smart” FO should just cut bait like Masai did with Josh Smith?”

I don’t think I’ve been remotely coy about this? My point is there’s a very high chance there are considerations other than “what gives the Knicks the best chance to win games” that go into playing RJ 34 minutes every night, such that even if you think Tom Thibodeau has never, ever erred in his evaluation of which players lead to the most wins, it’s easy to see why he still might play RJ these minutes.

No, I do not think we should cut RJ Barrett. I was answering your question, which was “if RJ is bad, why does Tom Thibodeau play him so much?”

As for what exactly we should do about RJ Barrett, I don’t have anything brilliant to say! Giving bad players $100M deals puts teams in a bind. Generally speaking though, as I’ve said I’d try to get him comfortable with lowering his usage and trying to be more of an everyman than an alpha. This would certainly come with a minutes reduction. This seems like the best way to both win more games and possibly rehabilitate his value.

“And I wish you’d stop throwing the $100M figure out as if it were some kind of max deal.”

I am literally just citing the figure with no editorialization as to its relative size. How should I refer to RJ Barrett’s contract in a way that won’t offend you?

“When I look at the stats, I subjectively shade my view based on the coach, role, system, usage, teammates etc..”

Right, and my point was Booker’s roster as a rookie sucked. There is no reason to believe he benefitted from it in a way RJ hasn’t.

“Half of executives polled believe RJ Barrett was worth his contract before RJ Barrett had what is shaping up to be his 4th consecutive underwhelming season” doesn’t move the needle much for me.

It was explicitly reported that Ainge was meh on RJ. We know he passed on packages with RJ and plenty of other assets: https://www.si.com/nba/2022/09/02/knicks-made-rj-barrett-centric-donovan-mitchell-offer-in-july-per-report

I have to believe that RJ has considerable value and that as a GM on a tanking team (Utah) I would covet him. He’s 22, believes in himself, great kid and a good pro. Plus he’s locked in long term so you can invest minutes/usage in him and milk the upside if the game slows down and he learns how to either shoot or finish at the rim efficiently. He’s perfect for a tanking team becasue his currently inneficient game delivers desired results and simoultaneusly builds the upside.

A mid 1st round pick and young 3&D guy with an expiring filler is a fair trade for Knicks because he doesnt fit with Julius and Jalen.

“The Katz survey still stands”

it is a data point but somewhat moot…(a) none of those guys had to be the ones that did the deal..so they can say whatever the fuck they want anonymously and who knows how much effort they put into their response…maybe they checked a box and moved on but even more so (b) you can’t go to your boss after you gave out a shitty deal and tell him to look at the survey of what others say they would have done as justification for making the shitty deal…you get paid big bucks to not make shitty deals ….i.e, think outside the box (again putting aside there was no pressure to even get a deal done until this summer and assuming he stagnates as the player he is right now given no changes to the roster mix) you would have had a better view on what to do this summer…

I am with Poindexter above though…I think the julius pairing with rj is suboptimal and perhaps with one of them gone or playing with different units and better mix of players…either of them could improve their overall game….a new coach and a new roster config might go a long way…but likely with the lack of creativity in both the FO and coach…probably will never know..

Allmans at the Fillmore East in ’71 or Dead at MSG in ’87.

I’d probably land the job AND a drug test.

As for what exactly we should do about RJ Barrett, I don’t have anything brilliant to say!

It’s hard to imagine what a trade package for RJ would look like. I still can’t believe we game him an extension instead of either making him earn it or shopping him around.

I will freely admit Booker has turned out better than I expected. He’s up at .200 right now. It’s interesting that it appears to be a reduction in his turnover rate driving a lot of that uptick.

But I have to agree he is a very poor comp for RJ. He came into the league a league average scorer and hit a bit of a gully his second year. RJ is at 89 right now, basically Tartarus.

Wiggins is and always has been the best comp. He’s playing pretty well right now, although he benefits from the Curry effect.

But If the outcome of the RJ experience is Wiggins in his current incarnation, can’t we all agree that’s pretty meh?

“But If the outcome of the RJ experience is Wiggins in his current incarnation, can’t we all agree that’s pretty meh?”

to me…Wiggins in his current state is wholly due to playing with curry/green et al…which goes to my point above about a different config helping him out but its tuff to go find one of the top 5 players of all time to insert into your lineup to unleash everyone else’s potential…

“Yeah, but his shooting is far worse. 2nd worst 2P%, 2nd worst 3P%, and worst FT%, eFG%, and TS%.”

and he has second highest FTR and by far the highest USG… like i said they’re not going to be exactly the same but there’s nothing remotely like ‘oh he clearly does not belong in this group’…. this is not kevin knox….

and the point is that for all this talk about RJ having no shot and no hope… what would you be saying about Demar Derozan or Zach Lavine or Jrue Holiday or Mike Conley or Andrew Wiggins or up to that point in their careers? suffice to say i don’t think a couple decimal points would have you banging the table on any of them and i certainly didn’t notice any on KB doing so…

and that’s the point i’m trying to make…. these guys have all been lampooned at one point or another and collectively we’ve learned nothing from any of those affairs when we have a guy… in spite of some very pessimistic filters… who’s not completely different than any of them….

djphan none of these guys really seem to fit RJ’s profile. LaVine was posting comfortably above average efficiency by his second season. Conley did the same, not to mentioning showcasing far more tertiary skills than RJ. It took Holiday much longer to become efficient, but his tertiary skills were such that he was posting positive BPMs by his second year. If any of that applied to RJ I think the conversation would be much different.

Wiggins is the optimistic comp for RJ, which is telling in and of itself, and Wiggins was also better to begin his career.

For RJ comps, you’re looking for high-usage guys who were pretty far below league average efficiency for 4+ seasons who also didn’t demonstrate any particularly intriguing non-scoring skills.

Bradley Beal is the best I can do and it’s not a great comp for a host of rather obvious reasons.

and he has second highest FTR and by far the highest USG

He does have a high FTR but he’s not good at hitting them. And really, USG? You’re arguing that his high usage is a good thing? Because I view him ignoring teammates so he can ballhog as a pretty big negative. Such a big negative that he reminds me of another player: Dion Waiters

and the point is that for all this talk about RJ having no shot and no hope

The point is that RJ is clearly a level below all of those guys. Sure, his shooting numbers compare favorably to Jrue Holiday but Holiday has never been a good shooter; he can run an offense and is a great defender who’s strong enough to defend multiple positions at an elite level. Meanwhile, someone like Jaylen Brown or Zach Lavine had poor or similar assist and steals numbers but they were far better shooters.

I’m just not crazy about that bluesy bar band sound. I mean you couldn’t pay me enough to go see someone like Southside Johnny but when the songs are as good as Springsteen’s…

Nicos, I have a dislike for rock that’s too-bluesy. If your band has a saxophone and isn’t wearing 2-tone, I have the urge to run away. I find I like rock that has more of a Jazz feel. Sonic Youth, Minutemen, or Squid is like the rock version of free-jazz, if that makes any sense.

One of these days, we have to trade playing lists, Mike. 😉 And ClashFan too, he comes from the same background, if i’m not mistaken.

You just made me update my last.fm password. This isn’t very accurate, but it might give you an idea of what I listen to.
https://www.last.fm/user/MarquisEXB/listening-report/year

Probably I’d say Cheekface (esp. if you like TMBG), Dehd, Bodega, Fontaines, Squid, Sports Team, Kiwi Jr., and of course TMBG are my current rotation. Ezra Furman, Thick, Mush, Amyl and the Sniffers, Sad Park, Yard Act, Idles, are also in there too.

“But If the outcome of the RJ experience is Wiggins in his current incarnation, can’t we all agree that’s pretty meh?”

Well I’d agree that anyone expecting a full-blown star outcome for RJ is delusional. We’re debating the “he sucks now so at age 22 after sucking in his 7000 age 19-21 minutes, so he will likely always suck and his contract is an abject disaster” take. Additionally, the question of why he gets unlimited leeway to play poorly…is it Thibs’ blind faith in him or pressure from above? The questions are aggravated by Obi’s limited minutes despite far better stats.

But the contract is he biggest issue. Percentage-wise, RJ will be making at most in the high teens of the projected cap increases. So while there is the disappointment that he will likely never evolve into a true “max” player, he should be evaluated in the context of whether he will ever live up to his roughly half-max contract (percentage-of-cap-wise).

For me, the comparison to other mediocre efficiency high usage young guys covers up as much as it reveals. The thing about guys like Booker, LaVine, Brown, etc. is that they were terrific athletes with clear shotmaking abilities who were growing into their role as #1 or #2 guys. To that end, they took a lot of high difficulty/bad ‘skill shots’ (midrangers and contested layups—shots that require a really high degree of athleticism to convert efficiently). RJ takes a lot of bad shots, but the bad shots he takes seem decidedly unlike LaVine, Booker, and Brown. RJ has no craft, no shake, and no ups unless he has a full head of speed in transition. He doesn’t take midrangers and when he does they are ghastly. His bad shots are contested layups that literally have no chance of going in because his head is down and he’s running into three guys. Brown, comparatively, is doing a difficult spin move and an acrobatic finish over one guy. These are markedly different kinds of bad shots.

Noting all this, I really don’t think the comparison is apt since all the guys on the list are plausibly #1/2 options on their respective teams. And while djphan is totally right to say that we shouldn’t be writing off RJ yet (I still think he’ll be a starter quality player at some point), I think adverting to those stats is the wrong way to make that point, since he only superficially matches that profile.

In my view, we’re developing him entirely in the wrong way, since he has an alpha scorer mentality and none of the requisite skills to be that. We should be tightening the leash on him and making him play more within himself (to the extent that’s possible.) Whereas with guys like Booker, you simply take the lumps, trusting that he makes that all-star leap. If we do that with RJ, it’ll be a disaster, I think.

“The point is that RJ is clearly a level below all of those guys. ”
“djphan none of these guys really seem to fit RJ’s profile”
“Meanwhile, someone like Jaylen Brown or Zach Lavine had poor or similar assist and steals numbers but they were far better shooters.”

Player X – at age 22

League Adjusted TS+ – 95 (didn’t reach 100 until age 26)
reb per 36 – 3.4
assist per 36 – 2.1
2p% – .440
3p% – .283
BPM – (-1.4)

whatever you guys are saying about Jaylen Brown or Zach Lavine were better at this or that… this guy is very VERY clearly worse than RJ up to this point and at worst absolutely positively comparable with zero caveats…..

and that guy… Player X… winds up making an allstar team two years later…. and that guy is Demar Derozan….

“So while there is the disappointment that he will likely never evolve into a true “max” player, he should be evaluated in the context of whether he will ever live up to his roughly half-max contract (percentage-of-cap-wise).”

Exactly. Is RJ gonna be an All Star we happily got with pick #3? No. Can he contribute and earn his contract? Maybe. At 22, he already has the countenance of a cranky old guy who might/should be 3rd option on a good team. And that’s the kind of guy who may even win us a game or two with some 4th Q heroics. Sadly, the goal remains, however, to find the guy we/Leon thought RJ was gonna be. That’s sobering.

Oh and for me the highest point of music is quietLOUDquiet. Like this absolute gem. That’s what Kurt Cobain was emulating when he made Smells Like Teen Spirit. Print it in Platinum and send it in outer space for Aliens to hear what humanity has to offer the universe.

Want a 2022 version -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt3kCm05Guo

“Jaylen Brown or Zach Lavine had poor or similar assist and steals numbers but they were far better shooters.”

“Wiggins is and always has been the best comp.”

Above guys have elite athletic abilities. RJ is slow, overweight and lacks explosive quickness. At 22, with no historical injuries, he’s at his athletic peak and its not good enough to make him an average NBA finisher at the rim. Let’s be realistic and admit he won’t gain explosivness as he gets older and wiser. His only hope is that he becomes an elite shooter and I don’t think that realstic. Demar Derozan is elite at shooting. Move RJ while he stil has “potential value”

and to finish that point… demar derozan is not some amazing player that we should be sacrificing our first borns for…. but demar derozan was absolutely useful in being a part of some deep playoff runs on some not so amazing teams…. then eventually with some luck and shrewd moves he was then traded for the guy who was eventually that amazing player….

everyone is so caught up in hoping and expecting for #1 or #2 options… those guys are really really hard to find and it’s not some binary thing where you fail without getting the real cream of the crop…. these other guys do matter and can help you win…. you just have to pay the right price and do well on other parts of the roster..

really…making the case for RJ by comparing him to Derozan?

One guy can shoot a real jump shot while being guarded…the other can’t …that is a little bit crucial to being a good NBA player..further…if RJ had a season like Derozan had last year…we would all be walking around with erections…

and btw..Spain just choked…

DeMar DeRozan’s TS+ was indeed 95 at age 22, but it was 102 at age 20 and 98 at age 21. Seems important in the context of this discussion, given that with RJ we’re talking about *consecutive* years of poor efficiency.

I haven’t ruled out RJ being a good player one day. I admittedly remain unsure what RJ Barrett: good player looks like given his dearth of tertiary skills and my skepticism he can get to league average scoring efficiency, but I also agree he’s not a talentless hopeless mess like Ntilikina/Knox.

What I am more certain about is what Silky (I think) is saying and what I’ve said in the past: we’re not going to get the best out of RJ Barrett by letting him chuck away. The Maple Mamba dream needs to give way to something else. Maybe with a lower offensive load he can expand his tertiary skills a bit and be a better defender. If I’m skeptical about RJ Barrett: good player, I’m incredulous about RJ Barrett: good high usage player.

Derozan’s also really good in the midrange, shooting mid to high 40% basically every year, sometimes over 50%. RJ is high 20% to mid 30% so far.

For some reason I thought that this might be an opportune time to mention that Z-man is a Morrocan Sephardic Jew, born in Casablanca.

“everyone is so caught up in hoping and expecting for #1 or #2 options… those guys are really really hard to find and (edit)…. these other guys do matter and can help you win…. you just have to pay the right price and do well on other parts of the roster..”

Exactly this — is why I’m sad but not devastated that RJ sucks at the moment. Can he evolve into a guy who stays in his lane, helps the team, and is good value on his contract? Maybe he just needs to re-calibrate and develop some core competencies that are plusses for his team.

“In my view, we’re developing him entirely in the wrong way, since he has an alpha scorer mentality and none of the requisite skills to be that. “

Exactly. Right now all RJ does is shoot threes or bull his way into double teams expecting a foul. To be fair, that’s all anyone does on Thibs’s offense, so we have no idea what RJ could do otherwise.

EDIT: As per TNFH, end the Maple Mamba dream for RJ’s sake and for ours.

ha donnie, that was some funny shit – dude just had a lot of songs about being horny…that’s so funny, yep, and at the end of the day, there it is…

I really like reading folks’ preference for music I’m not even a little familiar with…

thanks for the links, I’ll check them out…

A few notes from around the association:

– Huge win for the Pacers in Golden State last night. Halliburton sits out and their 2nd round draft pick Andrew Nembhard puts up 31 with 13 assists

– Houston beats a healthy Philly team, 2 games ago they beat the Suns in Phoenix

As I said in an earlier thread, the Rockets are executing the tank to perfection. Play competitive basketball, develop the young core and still stay in the Wemby sweepstakes.

Give me a time machine to see any musical act and I’d have to make a list of dozens of bands/artists and then pick one. Yeah, probably The Clash circa 1980 or so. I did see The Clash in ’84 but that was the watered down final stage of the band.

OTOH, what I’d really want to do with a time machine is go back to the night Lincoln was assassinated and take out Booth. And of course, as Star Trek has shown us, I’d mess up the time-space continuum and return to find us all in a post-Nazis win WWII state with Donald Trump as der fuhrer…

For some reason I thought that this might be an opportune time to mention that Z-man is a Morrocan Sephardic Jew, born in Casablanca.

Hahaha, strange that you mention it.

Spain was disappointing, they honestly drove me crazy, and I root for them due to some early childhood allegiances. I do think people didn’t give Morocco credit for what a good side they are. They have world class players and real depth. They are hardly a typical African Cinderella story.

Love those tunes, Mike.

Derozan is fine as a comp. Derozan was also in a dunk contest. It’s the same problem with Butler. RJ doesn’t appear to have that kind of motor.

I think the methodology of comparing RJ to “similar” players is wonky. He is not ever going to be DeRozan or Butler or Wiggins or Brown or any of the guys he’s being compared to. He just has to find a niche that fits his game and mature his game to that niche.

One example of a 3rd overall pick who was a not-super-athletic player and didn’t post a positive BPM or a career defining TS% until age 24 but once he figured it out became a perennial all-star after age 29 and key cog on a championship team is….

While their games are very different, in terms of mindset, that’s the best hope with RJ…that in the end, his inner qualities will lead him to a niche that works for him. Just keep refining his game piece by piece until it all comes together.

Hey, maybe if an NBA game is still tied after the first OT, they should decide the game by having 5 different players alternating going one-on-one with the opposing team’s best (or worst) defensive player and whover scores the most baskets wins…

when they drafted RJ…i thought he would need to be like an Adrian Dantley or Mark Aguirre type…given his outside shot is weak and he can’t jump…so he needs to figure out how to use his body and be adept at getting close to the bucket shots or get fouled alot…I see that as his best path…although Aguirre could shoot pretty good as well..

“One example of a 3rd overall pick who was a not-super-athletic player and didn’t post a positive BPM or a career defining TS% until age 24 but once he figured it out became a perennial all-star after age 29 and key cog on a championship team is….”

I can’t be the only one struggling with this.

I for one am very excited for the new Spanish caliphate, and the expulsion of the Crown of Aragon and Castile from Iberia.

(also, yes, this is Silky)

no cybersoze today..he must be in pre-game mode right now…

DeRozen is is a tough comp for anyone because he had absolutely no three point game. DeRozen inside the arc is and was on a different level than RJ- RJ’s career high 2pt+ is 87, DeRozen’s career low is 92. And DeRozen added value by making the jump to becoming a genuine secondary playmaker but, unlike RJ you can see a steady progression in his assists per 36 while RJ’s has stayed flat his whole career. And Booker, Beal, and Lavine had much more diverse offensive games than RJ- they all showed genuine three-level scoring potential. RJ is almost literally a zero in the mid-range. Barely takes or makes any- he needs to be an either an elite finisher or a lights out three point shooter and neither looks particularly likely.. Right now RJ is left hand in the lane or bust with incredibly volatile 3 pt shooting mixed in. RJ doesn’t need incremental improvements- if he was shooting 40% from three he’d still be below average TS- he needs a sea change. Sea changes do happen but right now RJ’s barely keeping his head above water.

Z-man is a Morrocan Sephardic Jew, born in Casablanca

if you don’t mind me asking, what age did you arrive here in the states…ma’s from somewhere else…i’ve always been proud of being second generation american…dad’s grandfather was from england, his mom’s people though had been on long island going way back…

OTOH, what I’d really want to do with a time machine is go back to the night Lincoln was assassinated and take out Booth. And of course, as Star Trek has shown us, I’d mess up the time-space continuum and return to find us all in a post-Nazis win WWII state with Donald Trump as der fuhrer…

This is about as close to the right answer as possible. Well the first part anyway. America’s original sin is slavery (combined with the other genocide we committed at the time), and it’s one they’ve never fully owned up to or dealt with. Lincoln was the country’s best attempt of addressing the issue. Unfortunately he had the right idea, but didn’t get to finish the job. And then the backlash was ruthless.

And every time the country tries to right that wrong, we end up with a huge backlash. The post-civil war/reconstruction stuff lasted like 3 generations. Then LBJ’s Civil RIghts was met with the Southern Strategy. Electing Obama gave us the Tea Party/Trumpism.

Maybe if Lincoln stays alive during and after his presidency Reconstruction has a chance. What we really need is a re-education like post-WW2 Germany de-nazification, but obviously we’re no where close to that. We’re much closer to the 1933 Germany than 1946 Germany.

@SBondyNYDN
Sounds like Derrick Rose will remain out of the nine-man rotation and Miles McBride is in.

Huh. Thibs once again doing the thing we’ve been asking him to do. Again, I have many problems with him as our coach, but he has shown some surprising flexibility this year.

One example of a 3rd overall pick who was a not-super-athletic player and didn’t post a positive BPM or a career defining TS% until age 24 but once he figured it out became a perennial all-star after age 29 and key cog on a championship team is….

Chauncey Billups?

He’s the poster child for late bloomers, and the Pistons were his 5th team!

The post-civil war/reconstruction stuff lasted like 3 generations.

i’ll need to go check, but, i’m pretty sure Reconstruction lasted less than a decade…i can’t remember why now…

just looked it up, yeah, something about a depression/recession and rutherford b hayes…

hard to imagine that things are as good (equality wise) as they’ve ever been…

I think my comment got devoured, so I’ll try again: my time machine show would be August 1962, Ringo’s first show with The Beatles, at the Cavern Club.

A close second would be their last show at the Cavern Club, which they did a year later as a farewell as Beatlemania was exploding across England. Actually maybe that would have been the show I’d prefer to have seen.

when they drafted RJ…i thought he would need to be like an Adrian Dantley or Mark Aguirre type

I hated both of those guys because they were Bernard’s competition for best scoring wing. Both those guys were also tough to watch because they pounded the ball enough to make Melo blush. Dantley in particular would spend 3/4 of the shot clock slowly and I mean s l o w l y backing his man down before nailing a fadeaway. And he was amazing at it. Basically Durant-level efficiency at slightly lower usage but also a guy who just derailed your offense; everyone just stood around staring at him as he went into his act. Sadly for RJ, that kind of back to the basket game is long gone and I don’t think it’s coming back.

i mean there’s all sorts of differences between Derozan and RJ or any given player.. there’s only 4000 players who played one game in the nba period so getting perfect comps is hard enough…but the standard isn’t that RJ is perfectly comparable to Derozan.. although i would argue it’s close… it’s that whether or not it’s possible for someone as bad as RJ has been can turn into a player of value… but there’s no way you can handwave the numbers and that Derozan was somehow far and away better or not comparable at all to RJ…

Derozan had even worse secondary skills and somehow improved upon all of them as he’s matured…. and yet it was foretold that it was clear that he was improving upon his passing…. yes coming from a 1.1 ast per 36 as a rookie improvement is inevitable… seeing how he went from that to what he is today you would need a crystal ball…

“DeRozen inside the arc is and was on a different level than RJ- RJ’s career high 2pt+ is 87, DeRozen’s career low is 92.”

no.. just no…. Derozan posted a career low 2pt+ of 88… at AGE 25…

yes RJ needs to improve upon his shooting but it’s not some impossible thing…. Demar was ok at shooting inside the arc but he wasn’t some midrange god that he is now until much much later into his career…. in his early years he was decidedly BAD at it… there’s no way to cut through the numbers…

if we’re getting zero improvement 2pt and ft shooting i would be leading the pitchforks against RJ too… but we’re not and we have to see more but it’s just way too premature to be saying anything definitive about RJ especially with so many people taking very narrow views in order to paint an overly pessimistic future for him…

there’s just no way it’s this dire…. i’m sorry….

“if you don’t mind me asking, what age did you arrive here in the states…ma’s from somewhere else…i’ve always been proud of being second generation american…dad’s grandfather was from england, his mom’s people though had been on long island going way back…”

My father was an expat construction worker making some good bank across the middle-east and north Africa post WWII. He got injured and was treated my mother at a hospital in Casablanca where she was working as a nurse. They soon got married (he converted from catholicism and had to do the whole 9 yards, including, you know…) and had 4 kids in 5 years, me being #4. When I was about 6 months old we moved to Spain and from there my dad took the family back the the US, settling in the Bronx. We were quite observant until I was around 10 or so, even attending a yeshiva (frightening) until second grade.

So I left Morocco at 6 months and have never gone back. It’s on the bucket list. Although it is still one of the more Jew-friendly Islamic countries, the thriving Jewish communities have long since dispersed to France, US, Canada (Montreal specifically), Venezuela, and of course, Israel, and no family remains there that I know of.

All of my many aunts and uncles spoke French and Spanish interchangeably, even in the same sentence, and my mom, who I lost 30 years ago, never lost her heavy accent. My sister kept the culture and more importantly, the cuisine alive, and my wife has actually elevated it!

damn zman…need to come to your place for dinner…

“Chauncey Billups?

He’s the poster child for late bloomers, and the Pistons were his 5th team!”

Bingo. Obviously he’s the 150th percentile outcome for RJ, but if it’s any consolation, they kinda look like they could be related…

And for my time machine- the premier of Rite of Spring. Great music and a total shit show that pretty much ushered in the age of modern art. Plus plenty of 50s/60s jazz- Mingus with Dolphy, Monk at the Five Spot, Davis with Coltrane, etc… But here are three I could have gone to and chose not to- first, Talking Heads at Town Hall (I think) on the Remain in Light tour. Best live version of the band and best set list (way better than stop making sense) even if it lacks the CBGB’s romance. I was 15 and loved the record, saw the show advertised and wasn’t sure it’d be worth spending all my paltry saving on. Two: Laurie Anderson performing United States at BAM. This one kills me because I think United States is one of the great art works of the 80s. Again, knew it was happening but Brooklyn in 1983 might as well have been Siberia to a suburban Fairfield county boy. And finally, My Bloody Valentine on the Loveless tour- I had a friend in western Mass call me and invite up to see them (making sure I knew there be plenty of psychedelics on hand) and I was like, I’ll catch ’em next time. Wrong choice.

i’ll need to go check, but, i’m pretty sure Reconstruction lasted less than a decade…i can’t remember why now…

Way less than a decade. Andrew Johnson, who was VP and took over the presidency after Lincoln’s assassination, fought reconstruction and Republicans in congress on basically everything post-Civil War.

awwww, thank you so much for sharing that z-man…that was pretty awesome…yeah, i’m coming with pepper for some great vittles and even better stories 🙂

“damn zman…need to come to your place for dinner…”

you’d fit right in, pepper…in fact, if I were preparing to walk the Green Mile, my last meal would include my mom’s (and now wife’s) roasted red pepper salad, which is maybe the greatest sweet/spicy/savory taste on earth…closely followed by a vegetable/squash puree kind of soup with chunks of shredded meat, a shredded carrot salad heavy on lemon, parsley and garlic, and a dish called pastel which is made in a deep sheetpan with two layers of mashed potatoes infused with the oils from the middle layer of moroccan-spiced (I believe cumin and turmeric are involved) browned ground beef, topped with an egg glaze and baked golden brown.

yes RJ needs to improve upon his shooting but it’s not some impossible thing…. Demar was ok at shooting inside the arc but he wasn’t some midrange god that he is now until much much later into his career…. in his early years he was decidedly BAD at it… there’s no way to cut through the numbers…

What? Take a look at their shot charts:

Billups is a late bloomer and there are a few others I have posted in the past that were also point guards.

I mean, everyone agrees it could happen with RJ. But the base rate here is what it is.

Z-Man – The hottest I have ever been was in Marakesh in July. 114. But I think it was hotter than that. All my friends got sick. We had a joke that we violated the cardinal rule of only eating at prime numbered stalls in the Djemaa el fna. That said, one of the best visits of my life, both in the city, where the evening temperature falls about 50 degrees, and in the surrounding areas, which are scenic to say the least.

Also, love Moroccan food. I feel like we have never had a good ethnic eats thread, need to get it going in the offseason.

Nicos, beat me to it, but Coltrane and Davis at the Blue Note, one of my favorite venues, December 1956 thank you very much.

Z-Man, your Casablanca note was one of my favorite non sequiturs on this blog. Plus it brought a rush of emotion, as North Africa has always been on my wish list, ever since seeing ‘Aurence!’ of Arabia on the big screen as a youth. Someday.

Your one-on-one idea is interesting, but I’m struggling seeing KAT going against Deuce.

And on that (blue) note, let us all hail the start of The Deuce Era! Strat’s bookie will be taking bets on how long it lasts…

Also, love the idea of the Deuce but I am registering my skepticism about how this is going to go. Which is to say I love him at least as much Frank.

there’s no way to cut through the numbers…

I’ll give it a shot: First four years 2pt+: RJ 82, 86, 83, 87. DeRozen, 103, 99, 92, 96. Yes, he had one sub-90 season but he’s been in the solid mid-90s for most of his career. RJ’s not even close to 90. And that’s without even the threat of a three point game. You can’t look at those numbers and say they’re in the same class inside the arc. You just can’t.

Deuce is my favorite kind of non-star player. I am rooting so fucking hard for him to make good on this chance. Hope he makes a few shots to get his confidence going before Thibs changes his mind.

I am rooting for Deuce too. He is 1-15 from 3. Mean reversion is inevitable!

Z-Man,

I just finished dinner, but your Green Mile list has me wanting to take another round… yummi! 🙂

On another personal note, tomorrow will be my first post-retirement work day. I’m subbing for a math teacher at my old school. It will definitely be weird and I’m a bit anxious about it, but also kind of excited to dip my toe in the water again after being idle for three months.

Also, love the idea of the Deuce but I am registering my skepticism about how this is going to go. Which is to say I love him at least as much Frank.

I am skeptical of Deuce as an offensive player. However, here are ways I would differentiate him from Frank:

1)His defensive impact is much more tangible, where a lot of the time with Frank you had to squint a bit to see the would-be lockdown defense in action.

2)He is much less tentative on offense, even if his offense to this point has been awful. Frank was just terrified to do anything on that end the majority of the time.

3)He has played really well in the G-League. Frank never really got the chance to do so, and not sending him there was a big mistake by the Mills/Perry administration. And the jump in competition is massive. But he has demonstrated some real offensive skill there. And in particular, his facility from deep when he’s playing with Westchester is something that should eventually translate if he gets more consistent minutes.

Mainly, though, it’s the first one.

The Beatles at the Cavern would be on my list. Also, an early Elvis show, pre military and movies, would be so cool. Ramones first show at CBGB in ’74, too, as bad as it probably was.

No arena shows or festivals. All club type stuff, like seeing REM in 1982 on a Thursday night in Knoxville with maybe 10 or 12 other people in the crowd.

Forget it…I’m stealing the time machine and becoming a full-time time traveler! Stop Booth, then hit the clubs!

I think going nine makes Deuce over Rose possible. One of either Randle or RJ should be on the floor with him at all times so losing Rose’s shot creation doesn’t hurt so much. If you’re playing Deuce, Quick, Cam, Obi, and Hart you’re really relying on Quick for almost all of your shot creation. Now I’d like Randle to be the guy coming out earlier in the first then getting regular run with the second unit rather than RJ; you’d actually get to see Obi with the starters a little more, Randle’s terrible rotations should be minimized by playing with Deuce and Quick on the ball, and Randle gets to play a little more Randle ball which I’m sure would at least make him happy if not actually help the team.

Alan, I mostly agree, but the fact that McBride was a #36 pick makes the downside so less traumatic to contemplate. If Frank was picked where he should have been (like at #36), none of the legendary acrimony over his potential would have occurred. I remember going at it with some here who scoffed at the prospect of sending Frank down to the G-League, and obviously that was 100% attributable to his draft position.

There were credible reports just before the draft that the Knivks were zeroing in on Deuce at #19. If that had happened, I imagine that would have changed the conversation around here considerably! There’d be no “incinerated pick” stuff but maybe lots of Frank-like debate over his “any day now” ascendency to greatness vs. abject waste of a great pick.

I 100% agree. It was more in the spirit of, I will root for guys who play defense on faith alone.

I will be interested to see a lineup of Deuce, IQ, Hart, Obi and Grimes for a 5-minute run. While they don’t have a shot-creator per se, they are all sneaky plus-athleticism guys who like to move the ball, cut, feed cutters, and spot up. If they start hitting some 3’s, that could be a really fun 2-way crew. Then you bring in Randle for Hart and go small-ball up-tempo, with Randle as a defensive rebounding specialist and playing the drive-kickout game on O.

cyber, looks like Morocco and Portugal will meet in the next round. Let’s wager a beverage of choice on it.

Portugal going through their opponents’ defense like Swiss…..

….never mind

Honestly, one of the great coaching decisions of all time. Put a guy in for Ronaldo and he scores twice.

Just pantheon level.

The post-civil war/reconstruction stuff lasted like 3 generations.

What I meant is the backlash from the post-civil reconstruction stuff lasted 3 generations. Basically Jim Crow, Daughters of the Confederacy, KKK, lynchings, etc. Racists worked to suppress the ability of poc to make significant gains towards equality. I’m hard pressed to think of what was different in the lives of black folks in America from the 1880s to the 1940s.

Pink Floyd in 1972 on their Dark Side Of The Moon tour. I’ve seen footage and they were not quite arena rock level yet although that is the album that put them there. But that must have been mind blowing to see them perform those songs live for the first time.

But if I had to pick a time to live in, it would be NYC in the late 70s. Sure, dangerous as hell but being able to live downtown in an apartment for cheap. One night you go to CBGB’s and see The Ramones, Blondie, The Talking Heads, next night you go to midtown and party at Studio 54. And if you knew someone who knew someone, you headed up to The Bronx and got to see Grandmaster Flash and the first generation of hip hop at some amazing house parties.

I can’t think of any other time and place where you had that much iconic music of such a wide variety going on at the same time.

“I’ll give it a shot: First four years 2pt+: RJ 82, 86, 83, 87. DeRozen, 103, 99, 92, 96.”

but why is league+ shooting the measure we’re SOLELY relying on when Derozan hasn’t changed his shotmix with the league his entire career? nominally speaking Derozan and RJ have very similar 2pt shooting rates with RJ having… so far… superior 2pt% at age 22…

and so how is it possible that a Derozan at age 22 with a .440 2pt% who didn’t even get it up to league average until age 30 and is now shooting well above that? was it the league environment improving his league+ rate or was it his shooting ability that improved? and why can’t RJ go through that kind of shooting improvement? because Derozan was so much better at midrange when he was younger? did you actually watch Derozan play back then?

maybe you think if you put age 22 derozan in today’s environment he would shoot 92% of league average… maybe that is true.. but that is not some slam dunk case to wave away all the other similarities and say Derozan is in some other class entirely and not comparable to RJ at all… that to me is a far leap to be making to religiously use league+ without contextualizing it .. but maybe that’s just me… but imo you’re using it far beyond what it’s meant for…

again… i’m repeating this.. but this is a very narrow view on the numbers.. but broadly speaking there are more similarities than not that cannot simply be handwaved away just because one thing is different and disqualifies everything else…. and that goes for the other players mentioned also… it’s not that they are all perfect comps.. they’re not… but all the criticisms levied at RJ were also brought to those guys and they somehow someway managed to figure things out eventually….. which must’ve been miracle the way we talk about RJ here…

time machine
– i would do the 1979 AC/DC Paris show that they made into the Let There Be Rock movie…the beginning of that film where they interview the guys in their trailers before the show is classic…Malcolm proclaims that Angus is better than Jagger as an entertainer (and someone else but I can’t remember who)….
– Castle Donnington at its peak with Maiden, Motorhead…etc…always wanted to be at one of those
however, i would not answer the question…no way would i want to work with hubert…hahaha

Cam Reddish remains out of the rotation and the Knicks declined to make him available to the media. https://t.co/ldsB3yr6dn— Stefan Bondy (@SBondyNYDN) December 6, 2022

My guess is Cam is traded for a “first” that has little to no chance of conveying as such, which will lead to even more fun discourses about when a pick is “incinerated” as opposed to merely “wasted.”

Ditto to everyone who finds Deuce fun and rootable. His defensive impact feels much clearer than Frank’s ever did, and at least he doesn’t look terrified to be playing NBA basketball. It’s incredible how fluid his shot looks in G-League highlights compared to, well, you know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ils0Vfx_A8&ab_channel=NBAGLeague

A lot of these aren’t even open!

Reading the tea leaves, it feels like there’s some kind of shift going on. As much as we may like Deuce the case that he’s better for 2022-2023 wins than Rose is…unclear, shall we say.

so…what we need is Dr Strange to appear and do the Avengers End Game thing by just making sure we stay in the one out of a zillion realities in which RJ breaks through…then all is good and we can stop with the endless array of describing outcomes in which we get very good RJ….
i mean sure there is a way that it might happen…but I think Knick Fan not in NJ (is that still his handle?) hit it right a few days ago…would any club in the association straight up assume that contract right now …no strings attached…just if it was available would they do it? I think the answer is like nope…which is a reflection of all the people who supposedly know something about hoops think about his potential…i guess potential vis a vis paying 25 mil a yr for 4 yrs…

“would any club in the association straight up assume that contract right now …no strings attached…just if it was available would they do it? I think the answer is like nope”

Not so sure about that…there are some not smart FOs out there…

I mean, when two guys you signed to non-cheap two and three year deals before just last season are both out of the rotation, along with the guy you traded a slightly singed first round pick for, that doesn’t look good for your skills as a GM, right?

Yeah, Rose-Fournier-Cam out of the rotation is worth a chuckle.

i just scanned the salarly list right now to see who (with over 3 yrs left on their deal) is making more the 25 AAV (i did not do math…just eyeball the amounts)…the list is stratified with 35 and over and then the 30-35 group…and then the 20-30 group

in the 35 and over…the real bad ones to me are:
Gobert and Lavine

in the 30-35
Simmons
Towns
Mike Porter Jr

25-30 (rj territory)
Randle

point being…even though there are some bad apples…I don’t think many (if any) GM’s would be dumb enough to take on RJ’s contract…as he isn’t remotely as good as anyone on that list other than our other prized possession…Monsieur Randle…

“I mean, when two guys you signed to non-cheap two and three year deals before just last season are both out of the rotation, along with the guy you traded a slightly singed first round pick for, that doesn’t look good for your skills as a GM, right?”

No, but skilled GMs make similar errors all the time.

-Cam was not a good idea, but not the worst idea in the world either. And he’s not locked in to anything so no worse than a whiff on a non-lottery pick. Might still have some residual trade value, maybe a second rounder…

-Rose is on an expiring deal given the team option. Still might have residual value to a contender, could yield a second or so…

-Fournier is still a good player who is in his prime and healthy. He might get something back as we near the trade deadline…

And the fact that they are marginalizing those guys suggests that they are being flexible and looking to move on from mistakes. And the fact that they are replacing those guys by elevating young players with upside (mostly Grimes and Deuce) rather than trading for someone like Alec Burks suggests a positive outcome, doesn’t it?

did you actually watch Derozan play back then?

Did you actually watch any games back then? If you think there hasn’t been a pretty big change in pace and space increasing 2pt %’s I don’t know what to tell you. I do think there’s an argument that because RJ has played on the slow, poor shooting Knicks he hasn’t benefited from increased pace and space as much as he might have but when I look at TS+ first four years I see one guy who was right around league average: 102, 98, 95, 98 and another who hasn’t been close 82, 86, 83, 87. To say that RJ is as likely as DeRozen was to become a plus efficiency scorer because they have similar fg%s despite the game in changing fairly significant ways in the last ten years seems like wish casting. I respect a lot of what you say- my 2500 minute argument was crazy and you definitely changed my mind there but I think you’re in denial about just how bad his efficiency has been compared to his peers.

That said, the doom and gloom after every poor performance does probably go too far- the book is clearly not closed on the guy. I’ve killed him as much as anybody so I’m going to try to lay off the RJ stuff til the all-star break. He’s been better in the second half every year so I’m sure he’ll look better then.

pepper, it’s kind of a cherry-picked list, since, as you learned, there aren’t a lot of players on it to begin with.

Again, RJ’s deal is not going to kick in until next year and when it does it will be for well less than 20% of the cap and something like 15% of the tax level.

I think there are GMs out there that would roll the dice on that deal, and even if not, there’s still time before it kicks in for RJ to show better play.

Skilled GMs indeed make errors, but “everything we did in an offseason in which we had over $40M in cap space went to shit” is pretty alarming.

It also makes it doubly annoying that we punted on a series of picks because our roster was chock full of guys we are now not playing.

These guys just don’t seem to be very sharp. Doesn’t bode well for them guiding us out of the morass.

“It’s incredible how fluid his shot looks in G-League highlights compared to, well, you know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ils0Vfx_A8&ab_channel=NBAGLeague

A lot of these aren’t even open!”

As impressive as Deuce’s stroke is in that video, the megadunks by Sims are freakin’ special effects shit…he really is a freak of nature!

No

Agreed.

not sure what you mean by cherry picked…i may have described it wrong…the list of guys at 25aav or over with at least 3 years left is about 60 dudes….

so at 30 teams with 12 slots (?)…the total population is 360 guys….so about 15% of the league is in the over 25 group…but about 10 of those have less than 3 on their deal so lets say 50 guys…of that 50…I would say there are 10% of them that are not good…that is a small %…therefore implying not many dumb GM’s or GM’s doing dumb deals…perhaps you are right but the data suggests it is not likely…

Skilled GMs indeed make errors, but “everything we did in an offseason in which we had over $40M in cap space went to shit” is pretty alarming.

Yeah, when you’ve only been GM for three years, and one of the three years was so bad that you’re burying all the guys you acquired a year later (besides the one you already attached four second round draft picks to to get rid of), it looks awful. Especially when the third year is also now a debate over how bad the major extension you just handed out was.

But Brunson is great!

***I am rooting for Deuce too. He is 1-15 from 3. Mean reversion is inevitable!***

In the spirit of making useless comps for young players, Poku went 1-16 from 3 to start his career. He’s now shooting 37% on 3.5 attempts per game. (Ta-da!)

“It also makes it doubly annoying that we punted on a series of picks because our roster was chock full of guys we are now not playing.”

On balance, given the draft equity they went in with, they came out with good to excellent value overall.

2020: went in with 3 picks, came out with Obi, IQ and a future 2nd
2021: went in with 4 picks, came out with Grimes, Rokas, McBride, Sims a conditional future 1st and a future 2nd
2022: went in with an 11th pick and a second, came out with 3 future protected firsts, additional cap space, and Trevor Keels. Gave up 4 seconds, got back a fake second

So in 3 drafts they’ve acquired 3 mainstay rotation players with more upside, two possible rotation players (Sims and Deuce), a solid draft-and-stash prospect, and several likely-to-convey additional firsts.

Their biggest mistake was drafting Obi over Hali. Everything else is at worst reasonably inconsequential when taken as a whole, and probably a net positive.

pepper, I’m suggesting that RJ is a pretty rare case as a 22yo player who was widely thought to be worth about what he is getting paid before he was officially extended. I’m skeptical that all of those gms are as out on RJ as some here are, for all of the “glass half full” reasons debated in this thread.

Loving all the music stuff. RJ’s game, not so much.

Time Machine on the pop/rock side: Like ClashFan, I’d love one of those cavern club shows for the Beatles. And, for sure, any chance to see early Talking Heads in NYC when they were all polo shirts and khakis.

@ClashFan — btw I actually saw the Clash in 1982 at the Pontiac Silverdome. I was thrilled, but the other ~80K fans were only there to see the Who and opener … Eddie Money (who programmed this show?). Haha. Of course, all cheered Eddie (Two Tickets to Paradise, bro!) and then threw garbage at the Clash. Yay suburban Michigan! I had GA tix on the floor, basically at the stage, and the Who played a great show, but … it was not an ideal experience to see the Clash.

On the jazz side, one of my favorite records is Bill Evans at the Vanguard, so I already feel like I was there, but that would be on my time machine list, or, like someone said, any set with the Kind of Blue lineup for Miles Davis that includes Bill who is, well, the best 😉

On the jazz side, one of my favorite records is Bill Evans at the Vanguard, so I already feel like I was there, but that would be on my time machine list, or, like someone said, any set with the Kind of Blue lineup for Miles Davis that includes Bill who is, well, the best 😉

What’s crazy about those Vanguard recordings is that you can often hear people talking while they’re playing. One of the most iconic jazz performances in history and people were just chatting away like it was any other bar on a Sunday evening. The Vanguard was like a temple by the time I started going there in the mid-80s; no one would dare talk all through a performance now and even cell phone usage is pretty rare at Jazz clubs.

It makes sense that Rose is out of the rotation to get a better look at Deuce. He looks more ready to play this year and Rose is still an asset that can be traded.

IMO, benching Cam is a travesty. They gave up a 1st round pick to take a good look at him because of the talent and upside. I had no problem with that because imo he IS a talented player and a better prospect than you are typically going to get at that slot.

If he failed so be it. As we know all too well some draft picks suck too.

But Cam improved on both sides of the ball this year, was probably the best two way player on the court for them in a couple of games, got hurt, was working his way back and now he’s out?

WTF?

I can see starting Grimes over him. Grimes is more of what we need in that starting lineup, especially if he’s scoring efficiently enough and making some 3s.

But Cam has been better than RJ on both sides of the ball. How is he not still playing?

Unless they have a trade lined up and Cam is part of it, they are essentially incinerating that pick in a totally unnecessary way since he should be playing over the guy that’s been playing like a bum that they have starting.

@ Nicos, totally agree. I think the last show I saw at the Vanguard was Jim Hall and it was all reverence as you say. Also clocked your Laurie Anderson anecdote, too. I missed The United States show, but I saw her Home of the Brave Tour, and, if memory serves, she did an amazing rendition of Walk the Dog as her encore.

Huge fan of Bill Evans here.

There are a bunch of Bill Evans’ performances that have been lovingly transcribed by fans and scholars, and sometimes I’ll go down a YouTube rabbit hole and follow along with those transcriptions. If you read music, it’s a real treat to see exactly what he’s doing visually. The way he is able to divide his two hands is unreal, I can’t begin to describe how difficult it is to do “comping” in your left hand like that while doing extended runs with your right hand, and to make it sound so natural, and he’s doing it with this insanely complex chord voicings to boot. He was an alien.

One of my favorite parts of Live At The Village Vanguard is the occasional clink of a glass and snippet of conversation you hear in the background. Just that little occasional bit of accidental found sound puts the whole performance in such a tangible time and space.

Cam played 9 of the least professional minutes I ever saw an NBA player play vs. Dallas. It was as if he was either suffering from an illness, or drugged, or purposely trying to say F U to the coach and team. No one with his talent should ever play that badly. I know it’s a harsh description, but I really couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

That kind of thing should never, ever happen, and most certainly not when you are competing for a rotation spot. He deserves to be behind Fournier in the pecking order until further notice.

I’ve seen enough. He needs to go the way of Bargnani, Hezonja, Iso-Zo, and DSJ. I’d rather give Daquan Jeffries minutes than see another performance like that.

KBA:44- Loved the Home of Brave tour but I think it was a case of more (meaning musicians) was less. The vibe of United States was darker and weirder than Home of the Brave even if there was lots of overlap. It’s funny I was talking to a friend of mine who I went to both the Home of the Brave tour and the Tom Waits Big Time tour with about how bad both of those concert films are- I tried to watch Big Time a few weeks ago and I couldn’t make it through 20 minutes- just colossally ill-conceived.

seems like the “organeyezayshun” is finally moving into the “acceptance” stage with respect to our roster and future…i would be curious to know if it eminated from the top or thibs or just in general how they gradually over the last month or so…began to change the narrative on why people play or don’t play with the exception of you know who…

One of my favorite parts of Live At The Village Vanguard is the occasional clink of a glass and snippet of conversation you hear in the background. Just that little occasional bit of accidental found sound puts the whole performance in such a tangible time and space.

For me late 50s/early 60s Jazz recordings are the zenith of sound engineering- even the studio records have a realistic rendering of room space that just makes current recordings sound like am radio. You can hear the lightest tick of a stick on a cymbal, spit in the valve, etc… It’s a space you can move through not a compressed block of crap.

JK- can you think of contemporary rock or pop recordings that sound as open as pretty much anything Blue Note recorded in the early 60s? They seem few and far between.

“Cam played 9 of the least professional minutes I ever saw an NBA player play vs. Dallas. It was as if he was either suffering from an illness, or drugged, or purposely trying to say F U to the coach and team. No one with his talent should ever play that badly. I know it’s a harsh description, but I really couldn’t believe what I was seeing.”

Was basically going to write this in response to Strat’s confusion. My working hypothesis is that he was massively hung-over, and Thibs has benched him for unprofessionalism. It’s really one of the few explanations. (I suppose he could have had the flu, in which case wtf Thibs. But my hypothesis is juicier and I’m in a rumor-mongering mood.)

It may very well be that the organization is transitioning because they now feel they have enough young guys to fill out a reasonably competitive rotation to move past Rose and Fournier. The logical next step would be to determine whether Randle is going to be retained. I don’t think you can do that without locking in a 9-man rotation of “possible” future pieces and seeing how it works out with him in the middle of it.

Hopefully it also means that they will make at least 2 picks in the first round this year, unless someone worth trading for suddenly shakes loose.

Regarding Cam’s being out of the rotation.

>>>Joseph Gill
@JosephGillMA
This is very, very inadvisable.

Cam’s PPP has risen every single year he’s been in the NBA, and he’s finally scoring at 1.01 PPP rate—above league-average.

If his PPP continues to rise and he’s a 1.05 PPP guy on 10 possessions a game in 2 years, that’s a very useful player.<<>>Right now Cam’s 1.01 PPP makes him a 59th-percentile scorer for the 2022-23 season.

For a hypothetical 1.05 PPP, that would’ve ranked 54th out of 207 (74th percentile) among players with at least 10 possessions a game in 2021-22, with a strong skew towards big men in that range.<<<

IMO, benching Cam is a travesty

sounds like someone thinks they know more about basketball than fairness-adjusted six time coach of the year tom thibodeau. all thibs has to do is watch cam play horse for 5 minutes and he'll know everything he needs to know about how cam is developing and then it's just a matter of whether there's enough room on the little table for all the zeroes.

>Cam played 9 of the least professional minutes I ever saw an NBA player play vs. Dallas. It was as if he was either suffering from an illness, or drugged, or purposely trying to say F U to the coach and team. No one with his talent should ever play that badly. I know it’s a harsh description, but I really couldn’t believe what I was seeing.<<

Most likely it was a combination of rushing back off the groin injury and the typical mental lapses he's had issues with in the past that he seemed to have grown out if. (maybe he was hung over)

But of you want a comp, I take it you missed the entire first half of RJ's recent performance and dozens of Randle's.

“sounds like someone thinks they know more about basketball than fairness-adjusted six time coach of the year tom thibodeau. ”

I think Thib’s hands are tied because they drafted RJ #3, hyped him as the future face of the franchise, paid him 100M, and now they have to pray he stops embarrassing them even though so far he has clearly been worse than Cam on both sides. The other possibility is that Cam is a problem in the locker room.

What I meant is the backlash from the post-civil reconstruction stuff lasted 3 generations. Basically Jim Crow, Daughters of the Confederacy, KKK, lynchings, etc. Racists worked to suppress the ability of poc to make significant gains towards equality. I’m hard pressed to think of what was different in the lives of black folks in America from the 1880s to the 1940s.

i get what your saying…actually, i kind of got what you were saying the first time…it was just like some involuntary reflex to call out the failing of Reconstruction…

one thing that does stick with me during that time is the early integration of african-americans in to politics…those were some brave souls…

> ObiMuse
@ObiMuse
Nov 29
RJ Barrett is currently 469th in value over replacement.
Out of 472 players.<

How do you solve this problem?

Bench Cam even though he's a better athlete, taller, longer, outplaying him on both sides, improving his PPP every year, and had his development stalled by repeated injures.

Brilliant I say!

Brilliant!

@JK — “If you read music, it’s a real treat to see exactly what he’s doing visually.” Haha. I love that such a rabbit hole exists. I’m googling right … now. And — I’m embarrassed to say (as an amateur) I just bought a couple books on music theory (any suggestions?). I played guitar in cover bands all through high school and college but never really got the “whole picture” of the fretboard. As someone returning to the instrument at “a certain age” my goal would be to play jazz standards and accompaniment in the style of Robben Ford’s work on the (much maligned) Rickie Lee Jones record Pop Pop, but I digress … sorry.

@ Nicos. Yeah, I haven’t seen those two movies, but I have heard bad things like you say. And Blue Note. It’s all about Rudy Van Gelder, right? For a while in my previous job, I kept pitching a scripted feature film about that guy. No takers, but Rudy’s story is great. Same with Bill Evans’s story, for that matter, but obvs different.

“But of you want a comp, I take it you missed the entire first half of RJ’s recent performance and dozens of Randle’s.”

There was something different about Cam’s stint. I don’t know how to explain it other than he looked like a 6’9″ HS malcontent that got thrown into an NBA game without any prior experience or practice. I never saw either Randle or RJ look that totally clueless about the fundamentals of basketball.

And even if they have, they are established mainstays in the rotation. Cam is fighting for a spot. No excuse.

Whatever, he’ll probably get another chance eventually due to injury. He’d better make the most of it.

Wiggins is and always has been the best comp

Nope. It’s still this:

https://stathead.com/tiny/NMYfG

Only two people make you smarter just from having listened to them: Bach and Bill Evans.

Hi Pepper, yes I’m still not in NJ. Thanks for the shout out.

As far as Time Machine travel, I’d pick seeing Caruso live. And I’m not an opera fan at all (really really not an opera fan). But he was such a sensation as a singer and there are no recordings of him. I’d really like to know what the fuss was all about.

“But he was such a sensation as a singer and there are no recordings of him. I’d really like to know what the fuss was all about.”

Well this must be your lucky day…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxaANq4n4HY

And for my time machine- the premier of Rite of Spring. Great music and a total shit show that pretty much ushered in the age of modern art.

That might be the best answer I’ve ever received. It’s up there with the Russian kid from Baruch who said Shostakovich’s 5th Symphony in Leningrad during Stalin’s reign of terror (Shostakovich’s life was pretty much on the line that night, and he crushed it).

Early Bird – I don’t agree this is RJ’s best season. As I said at some point, I was sick for the entire month of October. The straw I can reach for at this point is that he has had the flu for three weeks.

Sorry forgot the extremely important qualifier “shooting inside the arc”.

But if he had the flu for an extended time and still is putting up career best 2fg% it’s a very good sign.

As I mentioned previously, taking his career 3fg% puts him at a .540ish TS%. So presumably his TS% should be over that number if we take out his sick games.

Based on djphan’s numbers, RJ would then be right in line with the other young, low efficiency, high volume players at the same age and with flu adjustments he’d be higher.

However, theres differences in RJs game and those others as has been noted. Historically, I believe most players have found it easier to improve jumpshooting than rim finishing. But RJ doesn’t take jump shots, so he may not be on the same trajectory even with the same efficiency at the same age. Conversely, RJ still takes a lot of dumb at the rim shots he could wean off of.
—————————————
Perhaps the more interesting question is what benchmarks does RJ need to hit by year’s end for us to be reasonably happy with his trajectory? nd what benchmarks to be absolutely thrilled?

The greatest concert ever was three days before Christmas in 1808 when Beethoven premiered his 5th Symphony AND his 6th Symphony AND his 4th Piano Concerto (which he played). The audience complained that it was too cold and too long. Spoiled fucking Viennese.

(But the greatest moment in music, and possibly western civilization, was in May, 1824 when a deaf and largely irrelevant Beethoven premiered the 9th symphony in the greatest comeback event ever. It received 5 standing ovations which freaked the guards out because anything more than 3 was reserved solely for royalty. That’s the show I’d travel back to)

Well, my face is red. Thanks for the link. But I’m glad I made the comment anyway because now I get to hear him. I was torn between listening and replying so I heard just one song so far. He’s very smooth and relaxed and what I would call unaffected. He gets the music out well and lets it speak for itself, so to speak. That’s hard to do. I’m not sure why he was such a sensation though.

Just added Bill Evans at the Vanguard to the list of records I must buy. Please drop more jazz recs.

I played a whole range of music for my son on his first trip to NY. He was about 2 1/2. I was curious to see what he would like. When he went to sleep that night he was humming the tune to So What in his sleep.

KBA, I’m a bit jealous you got to see the Clash before Mick left. Pete Townsend was a huge fan of them and got them to open for the Who in ’82. I’d guess most Who fans were not into “punk rock” at that time, but I’d imagine The Clash made more money on that tour than at any time other than when they headlined “Alternative Rock Day” or whatever it was called at the US Festival.

Oh yeah, Donnie! The debut of Beethoven’s 9th. is #1. The story of him having to be turned around to see the crowd giving him a standing O at the end of that is so powerful. He was totally deaf and could not hear the crowd behind him…

Well, the best answer I ever heard lasted 5 minutes until Donnie Walsh topped it.

Btw Donnie I am meeting JK47 for lunch Thursday and we can save you a seat.

He’s very smooth and relaxed and what I would call unaffected. He gets the music out well and lets it speak for itself, so to speak. That’s hard to do. I’m not sure why he was such a sensation though.

Once I was extolling the virtues of Al Green’s singing to a co-worker who had serious hard-core European opera training and he just sniffed and said “anybody can sing with a microphone” whereupon we went into a back hallway and he belted out the most powerful note I’ve ever heard from a human throat. The genius of opera singers is that they can convey all that delicacy and emotion loud enough to be heard over an orchestra. I’m sure Caruso heard at full voice was astonishing.

And yeah, Beethoven would have been amazing but I’d rather leave the theatre and be in 1913 Paris than 1808 Vienna so I’m holding firm.

Only two people make you smarter just from having listened to them: Bach and Bill Evans.

maybe the first and only time i got that kind of vibe after leaving a show was for Tool…

the pieces definitely fit well together…

Btw Donnie I am meeting JK47 for lunch Thursday and we can save you a seat.

oh man, enjoy guys…

look at that, one chance spending time with mister hubie, and i’m eager for more 🙂

***Btw Donnie I am meeting JK47 for lunch Thursday and we can save you a seat.***

If you were underwhelmed by Springsteen live, you’ll really be disappointed by me live.

I’ll throw out 20 of my fave jazz records off the top of my head:

Charles Mingus – Mingus Ah Um
Charles Mingus – Black Saint And The Sinner Lady
John Coltrane – A Love Supreme
John Coltrane – Giant Steps
Miles Davis – In A Silent Way
Miles Davis – Filles De Kiliminjaro
Miles Davis – Bitches Brew
Miles Davis – Jack Johnson
Pharoah Sanders – Karma
Bill Evans – Moonbeams
Bill Evans – Waltz For Debby
Sonny Rollins – Saxophone Colossus
Keith Jarrett – The Koln Concert
Dave Brubeck – Time Out
Thelonious Monk – Monk’s Music
Alice Coltrane – Universal Consciousness
Pat Metheny – Bright Size Life
Duke Ellington – Ellington At Newport
Wayne Shorter – Speak No Evil
Lee Morgan – The Sidewinder

no cybersoze today..he must be in pre-game mode right now…

Hahaha. True story. 😉 And what a game that was, near perfect. 🙂 I hope we didn’t “spent” today, goals that we’ll need saturday. 😛

“Everything else is at worst reasonably inconsequential when taken as a whole, and probably a net positive.”

There’s probably above a 50/50 chance both Bones Hyland and Tari Eason would get picked in a league wide draft before anyone on our roster. We passed on them for a guy who can’t make the rotation of an 11-13 team and a Milwaukee first.

So I disagree.

My “time machine” concert would be the very first Ramones concert at CBGBs, on August 1974. But of course, it’d be a lot different if i was like 17 or something and was listening to it without knowing how it would go for them in the future and also without previous knowledge of the style of play (punk rock).

Oof. TNFH accelerating the Optimist Express through the Come to Jesus tunnel and into that blinding white light.

Since the Bill Evans Vanguard recordings have come up let me stan for drummer Paul Motian’s Trio with Bill Frisell and Joe Lovano was one of my all-time favorites- saw them many times at the Vanguard. Perfect balance between structure and openness. Their On Broadway records are a little straight but pure pleasure. this tune is my go-to when feeling shitty. Just lovely with Frisell delivering one of my favorite guitar performances- his accompaniment to Lovano is perfect.

I’m not watching the game, so I have no idea how it happened, but Jarrett Allen seems to have gone 9-9 in the first quarter. (He must have gotten hungry for baskets sitting there in street-clothes watching the game on Sunday)

Thanks Mike, i’ve bookmarked the Last.fm link to check it out, and the list too. I have some bands on my list and the others it’ll be good to listen to check if i like them too. Pixies are awesome, one of my favorite bands too, and thanks for sharing Sad Park, they sound great and it’s always cool to add new music to the list. 🙂
I don’t have lists like Last.fm, so i’ll just share 2 playlists of mine from Spotify. Are you talking to me, PUNK? and Days are getting darker. One is punk, with a lot of bands from the old, and the other playlist is more peaceful.

You mean the same Bones Hyland that just got benched for his putrid defense against all-time great Jose Alvarado? And who likely never will be good enough to start in the NBA? Would you trade Grimes for him? I wouldn’t.

And the same Tari Eason rocking a .515 TS% despite taking over 70% of his shots at the rim? Maybe we should wait until some of those picks convey to judge that one.

Is AD hurt again?

I’m reading the thread and making comments, so i can say i wrote my comment of The Ramones concert before i read ClashFan’s comment mentioning it.

Also, nice that you’re my neighbor Z-Man, as Portugal and Morocco have only a little sea between them. And if you go straight north from Casablanca, you’ll get to the Algarve. Don’t forget to visit me when you’re going there. And you can also get there from land/sea, as there’s ferries going from the south of Spain to Morocco on the strait of Gibraltar. 😉

Add Miles Davis’s Kind of Blue and Sketches of Spain to the list.

cyber, looks like Morocco and Portugal will meet in the next round. Let’s wager a beverage of choice on it.

Maybe i should read all the thread and then start replying, but not today, with the way Portugal played i’m like Clyde’s famous quote i’ll not be denied. Hahaha, we have a match, yeah. And no, i’m not overly confident, i hope they prepare the game the right way and respect Morocco, or else we’ll be packing our bags just like Spain. If Morocco wins, when you come to visit me here in Porto, the drinks are on me. 😉

This is kind of sport and music. I used to play tennis occasionally with a jazz club owner. So if a performer played tennis I would get invite as the fourth. One afternoon my partner was Betty Carter. Afterwards John asked if I would take Betty to a newspaper interview at a lovely Italian restaurant he owned. Sat at a lovely sun drenched table on the patio while Betty held court on jazz. And then to club for show. When she got into my work van, she looked around and said it’s got a real organization. Wonderful music, as she said in the interview, making jazz out of popular songs.

after

I think there’s some overthinking of the Cam situation going on. Occam’s Razor suggests he’s being benched because there’s a rotation crunch and he hasn’t been good.

Yes, he’s been better than RJ Barrett, but playing RJ Barrett over guys presently better than him is the tie that binds the last four Knicks seasons so I don’t know why that would surprise anyone.

I think Thibs (and many coaches) prefer a 9-man or at most.a 10-man rotation. When Cam and Rose were in, Grimes and Deuce were out.

We still don’t know for sure when Grimes was ready for starter’s minutes, and whether Thibs just wanted to milk “good” Cam for a few more days. Clearly there was going to be a preference eventually for the guy they didn’t want to include in the Spida trade.

It would seem that having the worst defense in the league among non-tanking teams would merit some tweaking. So I’m all for the change.

AD has flu-like symptoms…not an injury

having a blast going through the songs mentioned today – y’all are the best…

One afternoon my partner was Betty Carter. Afterwards John asked if I would take Betty to a newspaper interview at a lovely Italian restaurant he owned. Sat at a lovely sun drenched table on the patio while Betty held court on jazz. And then to club for show.

that sounds like a pretty wonderful day to have stored away in the memory files…

hey cyber…do you care if Ronaldo gets back in there or are you ok if he sits for the next game?

Watching this runoff vote count is crazy exciting and nerve-wracking…like a sporting event with constant lead changes…

hey cyber…do you care if Ronaldo gets back in there or are you ok if he sits for the next game?

What matters is the team, no problem at all in benching him. I think he is a little slower than in the glory days, so it also suits him best to be on the bench and then he’ll play the last 20 to 30 minutes and give it his all.

I almost missed the jazz discussion!! Coltrane’s “Stellar Regions” on Impulse released posthumously is hypnotic – music he was experimenting with right before his death. Grover Washington, Jr.’s “Masterpiece” was part of the soundtrack to “New York Yankees, The Movie” of all things, but it is life affirming. Can’t go wrong with Jimmy Smith or Jimmy McGriff on organ. Jimmy Heath’s Love Letter from 2020 is melodic and fun.

It’s been called I thought?

Warnock did well but it’s still amazing it was relatively close.

“What matters is the team”

dude…you stole that line from Thibs…didn’t you?

Almost all the remaining vote is in the heavily Democratic areas. Some of the smarter quants on Twitter have already called it for Warnock, including Dave Wasserman.

Yeah, should have specified Wasserman

EPM has Bones as a zero-th percentile defender… as in he’s the worst defender in the league. RAPTOR is a little kinder putting him ahead of Tyus Jones and tied with Malaki Branham & Doug McDermott for 2nd worst defender in the league.

Nobody else on Denver is close to Bones’s bad defensive metrics.

On the flip side, Bones is okay on offense.

I’d love the Knicks to trade for Hyland so Thibs would tear out what’s left of his hair and I wouldn’t have to look at his comb-over. Hyland’s defense and his hijacking of the offense are frustrating but a guy who can hit threes with range off of the bounce is tough to stop and nice to have.

Speaking of players overhyped on this blog, Mathurin is shooting 31% over his last 4 games and 41% overall.

He may turn out to be a good player, but the new car smell is sorta wearing off.

Consider that at his current numbers Bones would make RJ & Randle look like great defenders

Looks like LA needed Deuce…

Forget Bones Hyland.

Jalen Johnson and Keon Johnson are still 20 years old and they’re both already outstanding defenders.

Jalen is turning into a stopper. He already draws the toughest defensive assignments on the other team. In a game against the Pelicans they brought him off the bench to cover Zion and he slowed him down right away, picking up two steals. They put him on Giannis the next night and he had two more steals and a block.

Look at this defense:

https://twitter.com/KLChouinard/status/1589833054620876802?s=20&t=82_Soj7AAUs-UAaeld5OMQ

Keon is a little further behind and he has three guards in front of him: Dame, Simons, Sharpe. He’s getting most of his burn in the G League, but in his limited NBA minutes he’s averaging 2.4 Steals/Blocks per 36.

Both these kids are still raw on offense but they’re already excellent defenders at age 20. And like I said on draft night, all we needed was an autoselect bot to take the best player available at 19 & 21. Fucking Leon, man. We’d be blessed to have these two kids in our pipeline right now.

Look at him fuck up Zion:

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1589047913497341952?s=20&t=4OvHY9-HMr-sbXK7GpmHzQ

Look at this swat:

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1590507008741941248?s=20&t=8GOuoiPmjJ6KV5avoR8e2Q

Look at these two steals against Philly:

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1591601841996849153?s=20&t=4OvHY9-HMr-sbXK7GpmHzQ

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1590873677922344960?s=20&t=8GOuoiPmjJ6KV5avoR8e2Q

This kid is 6’9″, 20 years old, can guard bigs and wings. He fell in our lap, and Leon Rose fucked it up.

Jalen Johnson on Zion:

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1589047913497341952?s=20&t=4OvHY9-HMr-sbXK7GpmHzQ

Jalen Johnson with the swat:

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1590507008741941248?s=20&t=8GOuoiPmjJ6KV5avoR8e2Q

I think we’d be upset if our 1st round draft pick was shooting sub-.400 over his first 800 minutes as Keon is currently doing.

Deuce is 2yrs older but better at everything this year that’s not shooting 3s, and there’s reason to think he’s actually good at that part.

I wanted to draft Jalen at 19, so no argument there.

But worth mentioning that Kai Jones was the actual players drafted 19th and neither of those 2.

Two steals against Philly:

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1591601841996849153?s=20&t=4OvHY9-HMr-sbXK7GpmHzQ

https://twitter.com/ATLHawks/status/1590873677922344960?s=20&t=8GOuoiPmjJ6KV5avoR8e2Q

The kid is 6’9″, 20 years old, guards bigs and wings, and he fell into our lap with the 19th pick in the draft. And Leon Rose fucked it up.

He’s going to be starting alongside 19 year old AJ Griffin tomorrow. You may remember him as one of those guys available for us to draft when Leon decided to burn the pick unloading Kemba Walker instead.

I think we’d be upset if our 1st round draft pick was shooting sub-.400 over his first 800 minutes as Keon is currently doing.

That would be pretty short sighted.

https://nypost.com/2022/12/06/tom-thibodeaus-tinkering-will-soon-reveal-who-knicks-are/

We turned pick 21 into Quentin Grimes and a future 2nd. Not sure why we’re complaining about that. He’s starting for our NBA team rather than our G-League team is already a great defender.

Grimes is fine but he probably would have been available with our 2nd round pick. And we already burned the extra pick dumping Kemba.

Even if someone took Grimes off the board and the draft bot selected the kid Presti took with our pick, we’d be looking at a score of Jalen Johnson, Keon Johnson, and Jeremiah Robinson-Earl. In one draft. With an autobot.

That’s a lot better than Grimes, Deuce, Rokas, and a shitty pick that became Cam Reddish.

Throw in AJ Griffin or Ousmane Dieng with the 11th pick instead of dumping Kemba and you’re looking at one hell of developmental pipeline.

I’m not at all convinced.

(1) Keon Johnson sucks. He’s 20 but he sucks.

(2) Auto-draft would have us take Kai Jones, not Jalen Johnson. Kai Jones also sucks.

(3) James Robinson-Earl is a perfectly adequate PF. He’d be a good pick but not some brilliant coup.

(4) We don’t know what exactly we have in Rokas, but he’s crushed it in the 2nd best league in the world.

(5) Hartenstein & Brunson were great gets. If we traded away a 2nd rd pick to get those two, then it was well worth it.

Keon Johnson sucks. He’s 20 but he sucks.

Dude he’s played 800 minutes. 700 of them as a 19 year old rookie. Come on.

Anfernee Simons had -4.5 BPM at this stage in his career. Would you have given up on him? Portland knows what they’re doing.

Auto-draft would have us take Kai Jones, not Jalen Johnson. Kai Jones also sucks.

No, Jalen & Keon were both rated higher than Kai. Charlotte fucked up, too.

Hartenstein & Brunson were great gets.

Brunson’s got nothing to do with it, and no one would ever trade the #11 pick for iHart.

What do you think all these little side arguments add up to?

It’s Tyrese Halliburton, Desmond Bane, Jalen Johnson, Keon Johnson, Quentin Grimes, and AJ Griffin Vs. Obi Toppin, Immanuel Quickley, Cam Reddish, Quentin Grimes, Deuce, Rokas, and iHart.

Even if I give you Grimes being off the board, there’s Robinson-Earl, Herbert Jones, and Ayo Dosunmu.

You want to argue that Leon got it right??

Yeah Jalen Johnson has been playing pretty well, and has a reasonably high floor because of his defense alone. He’s still pretty raw but has an interesting mix of skills– he’s an impact defender but also has some playmaking ability as a 6’9″ forward. He got some extended minutes in the Hawks’ last two games and didn’t embarrass himself, and stuffed the boxscore a little. He’s still very raw but he can do some useful things.

AJ Griffin, on the other hand, is a bona fide rookie of the year candidate and looking like a blue chip prospect after a great start with the Hawks. As a 19-year old rookie, Griffin has a 106 eFG+ and 101 TS+, on 19.1 USG%. Good three point shooter and a surprisingly effective defender too, has gotten lots of steals. Yeah, drafting that guy might have been a good idea.

All I’m saying is maybe wait until literally any of those 3 guys have done anything better than Grimes before taking a victory lap. Being 20 a year old is not an accomplishment. I’ve been 20, I did it for a whole year too.

Anfernee Simons never shot under 40% on 2s. Even when he was 19.

—————————————

The Bane argument is exhausting.

Which GM is getting you Bane instead of IQ? Literally none of them.

No NBA GM bid higher than two 2nds. Memphis didn’t trade for him until after the draft, another team could’ve easily outbid them or traded up to take him.

You can swap out Rose for another GM you’re still not getting Bane.

Congrats on getting Payton Pritchard on auto-draft though.

Way late into the discussion, but since the pandemic I have listening to quite a lot of jazz. Just to throw some albums that I like that have not been mentioned before:

McCoy Tyner – The Real McCoy
Sons of Kemet – Your Queen is a Reptile
Yazz Ahmed – The Saboteuse
Art Blakey – Indestructible
Horace Silver – Song for my Father
Herbie Hancock – Head Hunters
Joe McPhee – Nation Time
Hiromi Uehara – Time Control
Pedro Iturralde – ¡Jazz Flamenco!
Yusef Lateef – Eastern Sounds

I really love the variety of styles that there exists in Jazz, something which I was not aware before.

dude…you stole that line from Thibs…didn’t you?

Hahaha, it could have been, but our coach is also like Thibs, stubborn and all. And yesterday for the first time he did what we’ve been begging him to do, to sit Ronaldo and to replace the starters that aren’t performing well. You’re only a starter if you keep playing better than your replacement, this is not a job. So our Obi (Ramos) entered for Randle (Ronaldo) and scored an hat-trick, it couldn’t have been better than that.
Hahaha, just messing with Z-Man using the Obi-Randle example, because now i have to play mind games with the few moroccans i know ( it’s only Z-Man 😛 ). Of course, no one thinks the changes will work so well in all games, this game became easier because we were fortunate to score the first 2 goals early. But the team played with a lot more purpose than usual, and that’s what we want with the changes.

Which GM is getting you Bane instead of IQ? Literally none of them.

I don’t get it. The argument is that they should have taken Bane at #25, right? And then try to get IQ with #33. #25 was five picks ahead of where Bane was drafted, so how could no GM get you Bane? I still can’t believe they traded away the 33rd pick in the draft, by the way. Who the heck trades away the 33rd pick in the draft for just a future second round pick?

Among the many aspects that I love about KB is how two or more great thread arcs can take place simultaneously. The 2-day music thread has been a revelation as the RJ chronicles took place. As for jazz, I humbly add
The Modern Jazz Quartet ( listen to Bags Groove and Django)
I have to include Ella F scatting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NLVAQ4NIqM

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