Knicks Morning News (2018.02.08)

Half the league is on the block and usually that help the buyers,
everyone’s looking for the same things
(young controlled assets, picks, shed 2016 salaries)
let’s see what happen…

I hope the 14 minutes D-Dot played against the Bucks are a sign of things to come.
It’ll be nice to see if he could become our pre Cleveland Crowder (2nd rounder) or Bazemore before the obscene contract (undrafted!)

That Lou Williams extension is so rational that almost makes it seem like GMing isn’t that hard to do

Don’t mess with the Logo 🙂

He’ll be 80 in may and still get 4-5 Mil a year for “consulting”…

Based on Lue’s latest comments the Osman’s train had left the station, but we’ll see…

Luxury tax issues.
HOU knows the Walking Bucket.
D’Antony rarely uses more than 8 players and, injuries aside, he has them already.
They’re already paying PJ Tucker Thomas’s money for being a better player.
Do you really try to win a trade with Morey?
Anyway, everything’s possibile… 🙂

What Jerry West has been doing with the Clippers is so damn impressive. They had already done decently with the Chris Paul deal, getting value when he was leaving anyway, he flat out won the Griffin deal for me (Harris alone is about as productive as Griffin has been, even though he is a worse rebounder, and the picks are pretty good) and the Lou Williams deal, if it’s really just 8 million per year + non guaranteed last year is insane. He’s playing like a superstar on offense and making the same as Lance Thomas.

If they get the Nets pick for DeAndre they’ll be in such a good position to rebuild fast.

The bad thing about the Lou Williams deal is that it reminds me daily that we’re paying THJ the double of what he makes to be half the player!

The bad thing about the Lou Williams deal is that it reminds me daily that we’re paying THJ the double of what he makes to be half the player!

Mills would never do it but the smart play might be to include Hardaway in a Cavs deal. Timmy could help them now but he’s young enough to be a future piece if Bron leaves. Here’s a
simple trade. Note we’d get Cavs 1RP in deal.

Thomas is signed for two more years to be a Tucker’s B version

His salary in 2nd year is only guaranteed for 1 or 2m so Morey would have flexibility.

Remember, we asked West to come here before Jackson,
alas he doesn’t want to leave California and rejected us,
just as Kerr did later.

Smart people don’t want to work for Dolan…

With the KP injury there is no point in trading anything of value for Rubio. He would just take minutes away from Frank and Burke and probably bring wins that would only hurt the tank.

I think it’s entirely likely that KP is out until after the ASB next season (ie. about 55 games in or more). He’ll be on a minutes restriction when he’s back even if there are no complications of the surgery and rehab.

The only rational thing to do at this point is trade anyone who is not part of the 2019-20 and beyond plans, and failing that, just let them expire (I’m looking at you Enes Kanter, Lance Thomas, Joakim Noah, Kyle O’Quinn, Jarrett Jack, Michael Beasley, and Courtney Lee). Also – no need to rush to make a trade at this deadline, although that is preferred from my perspective (just to open minutes for the young guys) — can also make trades at the draft.

The oldest player in our starting lineup next year should be 26 years old (probably Kanter and THJ) and we should be fielding one of if not the youngest rotation in the league — Frank, THJ, Dotson, PF to be named later, and Kanter most likely with the other rotation guys being 2018 #1 pick, hopefully one of the 2018 2nd round picks, Baker, Burke, etc.

We should prioritize player development above everything else the rest of this year and next, which will result in the appearance of tanking, take our lumps in the media, and emerge with multiple young and promising players — all while awaiting KP to return to form. 2019-20 is the first possible year that we could or should be trying to make the playoffs.

Also, unfortunately we should replace Hornacek. i didn’t want to before because I didn’t want KP to have yet another head coach, but now that KP’s out for most of next season, it seems like less of an issue. I’d look at David Blatt, David Fizdale, and maybe some people from the Spurs coaching tree — for instance James Borrego was on the Orlando staff when Perry was there…

O’Quinn is dumpable only for trash, I guess. He’s a rental, after all. Lee. on the other hand…

Targeting Isiah Thomas might not be a terrible idea. The Cavs seem willing to move on from him and his value is low.

I agree with you Hubert. KOQ and Lee for Isaiah and Shumpert works for me.

Dolan, don’t you want to just sell the team, take the $3.6 billion in cash, and call it a day? You don’t need this aggravation.

If the Lakers are having trouble getting a 1st round pick for Randle because he’s going to be a free agent, it’s no shock we are having trouble getting anything good for a backup C that’s going to be a free agent. There’s a glut of Cs. Still, if we could get two 2nd round picks for Willy who was playing behind him (and I didn’t like that deal), getting less for O’Quinn may be the market, but it’s still a bad deal in terms of value.

Couldn’t Joakim Noah actually play for this Cavs team??

Noah is owed $35mm after this season ($17.5 in 2018/19, $17.5 in 19/20). JR & Shump are owed $28mm ($24mm in 2018/19; $4mm in 2019/20). So we only have to compensate them for adding $7mm in payroll. We buy the ex-Knicks out immediately, of course, and save $13.5mm on the cap for the summer of 2019.

Lee is just straight up better than IT this season, and this season is all that matters for CLE. But IT has the potential to be better next season and fits our needs better than Lee. Frank can guard 1s for him.

Knicks get:

Isiah
JR (bought out immediately)
Shump (bought out immediately)

Cavs get

Lee
Noah
Jack

If IT seems looks good for a few months we can offer him a reasonable deal to stay. If not, whatever. We still got out of two long term contracts.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine

It’s obvious that Perry wants to include Lee and koq in any deal with Noah and that ain’t happening.

I’d like to extend KOQ at that price.

@28 – KOQ’s short-term value to us right now is actually negative. He’s a good player that may win games for us and we want to lose. He’s also an unrestricted FA at the end of the year so he has no long-term value to us other than we might want to re-sign him, which we can do whether he’s on the team or not (I guess we have his bird rights but ideally we wouldn’t be paying him more than early bird / MLE-type numbers anyway).

If the best offer is a mid-2nd round pick, I’d take it at this point. Ideally I’d like to get a low-ceiling wing prospect instead, but if that’s not happening, I’ll take the pick and hope it turns into another Dillon Brooks or even Damyean Dotson.

In that vein — early-mid 2nd round picks have actually been relatively valuable in the last few drafts.
If you take picks 31-46, these are some of the players drafted:

2014 – KJ McDaniels, Joe Harris, Spencer Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, GR III, Jokic, Dwight Powell, Jordan Clarkson

2015 – Cedi Osman, Montrezl Harrell, Willy Hernangomez, Richaun Holmes, Josh Richardson, Pat Connaughton, Andrew Harrison, Norman Powell. 8 rotation-level players (out 16 picks) although no stars.

2016 – Deyonta Davis, Tyler Ulis, Malcolm Brogdon, Patrick McCaw, Isaiah Whitehead – not quite as good

2017 – Frank Mason III, Ivan Rabb, Semi Ojeleye, Jordan Bell, Jawun Evans, Dotson, Dillon Brooks, Sterling Brown (not counting Frank Jackson who has been hurt, Jonah Bolden and Hartenstein who were stashes)

Overall 29 out of 64 players have been at least rotation level guys, with a few guys that have greatly exceeded expectations. Late 2nd round picks are pretty useless, but early-mid 2nd’s are a reasonable lottery ticket.

Winning is bad and we need more assets

I hear you, but I guess I disagree with the consensus on the values.

If your goal is to move from the 10th pick to the 7th pick winning is bad.

If your goal is to create a better team over the long haul, giving away good assets for pennies on the dollar does more damage than gaining a few slots in the lottery unless you are top few.

If he’s definitely opting out and wants too much, the point is moot and we can take a single 2nd rounder. That’s better than nada.

However, we are at the stage now where even Perry realizes we should be playing and developing young players. If the only offer for O’Quinn is utter trash, there’s no reason we can’t keep him for now and play Kornet from the G league to get/keep the tank going.

I think we probably know what Kyle intends to do and what it would take to keep him. He’s young enough to be productive for 4-5 more years. It’s not like Lee where we know he’ll be done by the time we are “hopefully” getting good.

@30

The numbers are slightly different (we’re asking CLE to add around 8.3 MIL next year and if LeBron stays they’re already tax strapped so the real value could jump be around 12 MIL)
but either way you’re asking someone, even if this someone is an idiot as Dolan,
to give away around 30 MIL in the buyouts for free.

Note: The starting point in Noah’s buyout negotiations is 38 MIL plus what’s left for this year.

It’s easier to do it when it’s not your money…. 🙂

@41

Let’s work some of that Logo magic

I think we could get the Denver FRP if we take back Faried. Maybe Kyle and McD get it done?

he’s a rental that is also an expiring contract, which should be attractive to teams like Cleveland that are in or up against the tax.

I’d be surprised if KOQ got anything more than Dwayne Dedmon money (2 years $17MM – or basically MLE). He’ll probably end up somewhere betwen the taxpayer and nontaxpayer MLEs.

To be clear, I’d trade KOQ for a 2nd rounder that is likely to be in the first half of the 2nd round. I wouldn’t take a pick in the 50s for him. I’d rather do something like KOQ for Osman (ie. big for small even if the small has more years on his deal).

Woj just tweeted out that teams are talking about waiting out the trade market and seeing what comes on the buyout market instead. Besides that this seems like a transparent negotiating tactic by the “buyers”, I have no idea why teams would buy out players so much – all it does it ruin their own leverage in trades.

They are speculating that buy outs will occur. No one is saying player x will bought out prior to deadline

Yeah, Kyle’s contract status should make him more attractive! I think the lack of interest in him is likely an indication of what he should expect this summer. Teams aren’t passing on him now so they can line up a 4 year, $40mm offer this summer.

Unfortunately, he is too good for the tank this year. But with Willy gone and Kanter on a stupid deal that we should absolutely not consider extending, I think resigning OQ isn’t bad.

@44
That means paying a non lottery first rounder around 9,5MIL (or 13,8 MIL if we think that KOQ will opt out).

I don’t know the current value for a 15-20 pick right now, maybe is that a fair one? It seems a little bit high.

@45

Actually I was CEO in a small company and in the board of another (sligthly larger) one. I think I hired around 100 people from my 25 to my 30. My record is all over the place, of course.

Trade deadline looks like a dud…

btw at this point in my PTSD Knicks fandom, I’d almost be happy with a quiet trade deadline. Nothing would be worse than doing something really dumb like trading a first to be rid of Noah.

Prospects of KOQ / Kanter opting out and getting paid (by someone else) this summer are not great:

Not many teams will have room (Atl, Chi, Indy, LA, PHX, Brooklyn, Orlando, Philly), and some of those teams have to renounce someone to get there.
-LA is going after big names
-Chi has Robin Lopez, and now they have Asik. they don’t want these guys.
-Brooklyn has Jarrett Allen and Mosgov
-Philly is all set
-PHX is paying Tyson Chandler $13M
-ATL has a Plumlee, and they would be best off keeping Dedmon
-ORL has Vucevic and Biz.

Plus….there are other bigs avail….boogie, Lopez, Monroe, Noel, Okafor, Favors

Continued…..our best move is to keep both KOQ and Kanter. If they opt in, fine….it’s 1 year. If they opt out, that’s fine too…losing KOQ for nothing would hurt, but its not like we are getting offers for him. I would offer him 3 years at $8M per and tell him after Kanter leaves he’s got a shot for more minutes. If someone gives him more, what can you do.

I don’t see Kanter turning down $18M and getting 3 years from someone else at a rate anywhere near that. Maybe he’s worth $14M for 3 years, $42M total? he’d be better off taking the $18M; years 2 and 3 would only be worth $12M / year more.

resigning koq wouldn’t be the worst move in the world… i think he’s probably our best big man…..

there is very much a lashback against no defense all offense big men… okafor.. monroe… al jefferson… brook lopez all saw a very cool trade market…. so extending kanter for anything more than 8mm is dicey….

with kp’s injury i hope we try and maybe get another 1st and rent out some space…. it seems like faried’s deal might be perfect for that since it expires next season….

I’m honestly horrified at the thought of what our FO will give Kanter in contract negotations next summer.

If the Lakers are really just giving away Larry Nance, we should get on the phone with them right now before they come to their senses.

Yes

I’m honestly horrified at the thought of what our FO will give Kanter in contract negotations next summer.

Yes again

i don’t know what the lakers are doing with nance.. he’s a really good modern 4… and would be perfect for us….

The Lakers are an interesting case study on rebuilding.

They drafted Randle, Russell, Nance, Ingram and Ball in the 1st round over the last 4 years.

Russell is gone.
They are trying to move Randle.
They may be considering moving Nance.

In general I don’t know how much pull an assistant GM has in terms of contract negotiations, but the FA contracts signed by his teams prior to NYK are pretty horrifying. We’re talking Biyombo’s albatross deal, Zach Randolph’s 2 year $24MM atrocity, George Hill’s deal they’re trying to get rid of already, Vince Carter for $8MM (at least that’s only 1 year).

Kanter is Perry’s return for a major superstar. A top hall of fame superstar. Of course he’s giving him a lucrative extension.

ESPN headline: A year after incident, Oakley still wants Dolan, MSG held ‘accountable’

hey Oak, get in line.

PS….please don’t tell him I said that

Strat, I don’t get how you don’t grok the benefits of trading O’Quinn and Lee for whatever you can get.
1) more minutes for kids
2) more losses for the tank

Dolan brought in Perry because he’s “well respected” around the league. I guarantee there was zero discussion of talent evaluation strategy or anything of that nature. When your owner is a complete and utter moron your only hope is that you get very lucky and someone with actual basketball acumen impresses him. If Dolan had hired West instead of Phil that could’ve been us, but alas, we cannot have nice things.

@72

Orlando (Perry!) is another good one:

2012 Nicholson (traded, buyout)
2013 Oladipo (traded)
2014 Gordon (RFA in 2017)
Saric (traded for Payton, a RFA in 2017)
2015 Hezonja
2016 Sabonis (traded)

Great trade: Jameer “Uncle” Nelson to Detroit for Willie “Wifebeater” Reed

if the nets grab mudiay that would be hilarious… they basically traded for the 3 top 7 lotto picks in the 2015 draft….

The Cavs are picking up a very promising young player for the price of taking on Clarkson’s mediocre but not terrible contract. Unless the Lakers are getting the Brooklyn pick they majorly fucked up. I’m sure the Lakers would’ve preferred to do business with someone other than the team they’re competing with for LeBron so I really wish we got involved here.

@90 – they’ve been trying to get rid of Clarkson forever. He doesn’t play defense at all. Clearing Clarkson or Deng was integral to their plans to have 2 max slots this summer. So they did it AND picked up a 1st rounder in the process. That is a great deal for them.

Getting the Cavs’ first makes it a little better but the Lakers just salary dumped their best young player. It ain’t a good deal for them unless they make incredible use of this cap space i.e. not just signing Paul George to perpetually win 45 games.

Wow – Isaiah, Channing Frye, and Cavs 1st to Lakers for Clarkson and Nance. That is an amazing trade for the Lakers (clear TONS of cap) and also get the Cavs pick. Wow.

I think it honestly made a lot of sense for the Cavs. They just had no use for Isaiah in his current state. Clarkson is mediocre, but sadly mediocre is an improvement for them and Nance really helps them.

That said, yes, it was better for the Lakers.

The Cavs got protection on their pick. I wonder if it is, say, Top 20 protected?

Not sure about this deal. It looks Knicksy but I don’t know why

You don’t throw away good players on fair deals just because your goal is to begin tanking the rest of the season and playing young players. You try to get a good deals on them. If you fail, you just don’t play them much for the rest of the season and maybe see what you can get later.

Dude, there is no “later” for KOQ. None. He will be an unrestricted free agent in 5 months. You trade him for literally anything you can get and there is no compelling counterargument.

Lee is going to be 33 next season and his play this season has already quietly taken a nosedive. No one is giving us value for him (which a lot of us realized the second the ink was dry on his contract but I digress). He is a slightly below average player making more money than Lou Williams–if we can dump his contract for expirings we should do it and be satisfied.

What it really highlights, though, is how much Cleveland fucked up in taking Isaiah. If Boston was willing to trade Isaiah, that should have been a glaring red flag for the Cavs that he was not going to be healthy this year.

Isaiah’s reputation not looking good

Lee is going to be 33 next season and his play this season has already quietly taken a nosedive. No one is giving us value for him (which a lot of us realized the second the ink was dry on his contract but I digress). He is a slightly below average player making more money than Lou Williams–if we can dump his contract for expirings we should do it and be satisfied.

I think strat’s biggest worry is taking back a shitty contract of a younger player for Lee, and I would agree that in that scenario, I’d just keep Lee. But I also agree with you, that while I’d like a pick for Lee, I’d be content to take just an expiring contract. Lee has no good reason to be on this team this year or next year (he never had a good reason to be on the team, but, as you note, that’s a whole other thing).

I really like Nance on the Cavs though

The thing with the Lakers is they switched rebuilding strategies-they’re looking to clear free agent money now.

Cleveland even had a chance to back out of the deal but didn’t. They just got all starry-eyed over that Brooklyn pick.

The Brooklyn pick is a great, great asset, but fuck, yeah, I forgot that they were explicitly told that he was worse off than initially told (and thus could back out of the deal) and they still did the deal!!

It would’ve taken a lot more to get kemba true but he is a lot better than clarkson

Wow, just saw that Lakers deal. Nance is now the 2nd or 3rd best player on the Cavs. If they can somehow get a average point guard somewhere they should be in much better.

Wait it’s not for the Brooklyn pick?

Ah so a late first,, now I see what you mean… kemba would’ve cost them the nets pick.

Ah so a late first,, now I see what you mean… kemba would’ve cost them the nets pick.

Exactly. And they really don’t want to touch that pick. Imagine having, say, Doncic to entice Lebron to return to Cleveland?

Got it

But if you protect that nets pick to get kemba you do it

Kanter, Noah and KP are all out tonight. If we trade KOQ, who is going to play C tonight?

Kornet, I guess? Hicks would probably play some center, as well.

But if you protect that nets pick to get kemba you do it

Agreed, but I don’t think the Hornets would take that pick with protections on it.

Great point by Woj that now the Lakers can trade their 2019 pick

Pelicans get: Kanter

Lakers get: Cousins

Knicks get: Deng, LA’s 2019 first, Pelicans 2020 first

Who says no?

(Answer: probably the Knicks, because we want to sign Kanter to a 5 year, $140mm contract extension)

I would imagine that the Lakers would only be willing to deal their 2019 pick after securing two notable free agents. It’d be too big of a risk to trade it now.

I get that IT has basically been the worst player in the NBA on a per-minute basis this year and that he was clearly becoming a pain in the ass. This will definitely result in an immediate uptick for the Cavs. But I still feel like getting IT healthy and integrated/playing his best was still the only way this team had a ceiling that even approaches championship level (even with a trade for another piece). This trade says to me that they just felt they had to be rid of IT. Nance is pretty darn good though and I think a lot more people will get to see it now. This Cavs team desperately needed energy/live bodies and he’s got that in abundance.

The implications of this deal are fascinating.

I still don’t totally understand why did the Cavs help the Lakers create cap space for signing LeBron.

Nance is a good get, but do he and Clarkson really raising them on Golden State or Houston/Boston level?

And I hate to think of Lavar’s prophecy being fulfilled.

Rodney Hood to Cleveland, as well. Fascinating.

The Lakers rebuild started 4 years ago and was the rebuild we aspire to. They had 5 first round picks in the last 4 years (4 of them in the lottery), 2 are gone and 1 is on his way out the door soon. And they did not even draft very poorly.

The Lakers rebuild started 4 years ago and was the rebuild we aspire to. They had 5 first round picks in the last 4 years (4 of them in the lottery), 2 are gone and 1 is on his way out the door soon. And they did not even draft very poorly.

The Lakers are not all a rebuild that we aspire to. That’s nonsense. They did the same moronic thing Phil did by trying to sign vets to long term contracts to compete before they were ready and just were lucky enough to have their moronic plans work out even worse than Phil’s, thus giving them Ball.

All the Cavs need now is Kyle O’Quinn and they’ll be ready to rock!

The Kings did well to get out of the contract that Perry gave Hill.

Wow, the Kyrie deal at this point is basically Kyrie for the Nets pick…

Cavs’re going Title or Bust, every other way LeBron’s out.

Their salary tax this year’ll be through the roof, Gilbert must be fuming…

The Cavs are in a really fascinating place where they might be able to make the playoffs with that team next year without Lebron (with Love being the new focal point)! If they re-sign Hood, that is.

Hill/Clarkson
Hood/Smith
Korver/Osman
Love/Nance
Thompson/Zizic

It ain’t great, but that’s probably a playoff team and that’s not even counting their Nets’ pick!

Standing ovation for Cleveland FO,
I don’t know if it works but they’re really going balls to the wall.

And we all expected a slow trade deadline. 🙂

Did the Cavs just trade half their roster AND IMPROVE? What the fuck is HAPPENING

Now the Cavs are going to be a real pain in the ass. Very well done.

Freaking unreal.

Assuming they make it through, they just jettisoned all their useless players and picked up actually good ones. Just unreal.

Look at the shooters they have to surround Lebron with now:
Love 40.4 3p%
Hood 38.9%
Hill 45.3
Korver
JR

Add jack of all trades Larry Nancy

Damn.
Lebron at the 5 with Love, Hood, Hill, and JR/Korver would be sick.

Good news for our tanking project,
after this moves and with LeBron motivations after Kanter’s trolling
we’re going to lose the two remaining games vs the Cavs by 150 points…

I wonder if any of Clarkson / Nance / Hood / Hill will like Kevin Love?

lost in all this excitement is the heat getting Luke Babbitt

I wonder if any of Clarkson / Nance / Hood / Hill will like Kevin Love?

Ha! That should be the Cavs’ first thing to do. Send those guys out on, like, a day out hanging with Kevin Love to make them all friends.

Koby Altman did well, but his has to be the most incredible buyer’s market in league history. He’s handing out garbage left and right and getting back good pieces.

What’s fascinating, though, is that in each case, the garbage he’s handing out makes perfect sense for the team getting it, too!

I think that Altman’s moves do, in fact, make it more likely for Lebron to stay. But the key was improving the team to entice Lebron but then keep that Nets pick in case he leaves. They could be working in, say, Kevin Knox right into that team next year if Lebron leaves.

Hill
Hood
Knox
Love
Thompson

That’s not awful at all.

I’m sure they’d hope to get even better than Knox, but you know what I mean.

Unbelievably strong work by Koby Altman – brand new GM, obviously is not afraid of being aggressive. Wow.

When you have cap space, you should wait for an actual good opportunity to arise to use it. There’s no league mandate that you have to spend it on the first mediocre veteran who will take your money.

I agree.

The alternative is to give out a short term contract like he did with Afflalo/Derrick Williams. Those were not real signings. They were a way of filling the cap space and rolling it over hoping to fill permanently later. So I agree that 4 years was excessive to Lee, but I don’t think it’s a terrible contract.

The Cavs job was not that difficult. Find decent vets on bad teams that dont want them and get them. It’s hard to trade for good players, but it’s not that hard to get mediocre players (although nabbing Nance was really savvy)

The Cavs job was not that difficult. Find decent vets on bad teams that dont want them and get them. It’s hard to trade for good players, but it’s not that hard to get mediocre players (although nabbing Nance was really savvy)

I think it was harder than that considering that he only had one draft pick to work with (which went towards getting the best player of the bunch, naturally). He was able to get decent veterans while trading shitty veterans. That’s impressive. He did add $28 million to the Cavs’ payroll, though. But obviously Gilbert was okay with him spending money.

@182 – all Cleveland needs to make a run are decent veterans that can play both sides of the ball. Lebron will fix everything else. Hill, Hood, and Nance are all good defenders. Clarkson isn’t, but he’ll play off the bench. And they subtracted Rose, Wade, and Isiah. Sending Crowder and the 1st out was just the cost of doing business, even if selling Crowder at his low point isn’t great.

And the shooting just got exponentially better.

Seriously wonder whether Lebron knew this was all happening when he went supernova last night. He’s looked so disinterested lately, but obviously was not last night.

That, right there, was the gist of the problem. That Phil wouldn’t take on a year of Boozer in order to get the other stuff that the Bulls would have traded, which would have clearly included their two first round picks (that became two decent players, Gary Harris and Jusuf Nurkic, but that’s neither here nor there because we can’t assume that the Knicks would have drafted as well as Denver). Phil wouldn’t take Boozer because he wasn’t willing to punt the 2014-15 season when he clearly should have. It’s the same reason why he didn’t try to get a first round pick for Tyson Chandler.

We have no idea what was actually on the table for Melo, but I doubt VERY much it was “2” first round picks. Given my attitude at the time, I would have taken 1 pick, but my job is never on the line.

That was the crux of the issue.

Should he have traded KP because he was injury prone?

Maybe, but if he did he’d be gone. He was fired for thinking about it.

The Chandler deal was driven by something else.

Phil was going to implement his “hybrid” rebuild (both vets and picks).

Chandler was coming off a down year with injuries, did not fit the triangle, and wanted out. Phil also had players he wanted to get rid of immediately for “culture reasons” (JR Smith and Felton). He used Chandler to help move Felton and took back less quality plus a few wildcard 2nd rounders that unfortunately did not work out. He gave up Shumpert for similar reasons. Shumpert was injury prone and had some attitude issues. So he used Shumpert him to get rid of JR Smith and HIS rebuild began. He did fine for a year. Then he went off course with the Noah abomination trying to appease Melo.

Seriously wonder whether Lebron knew this was all happening when he went supernova last night. He’s looked so disinterested lately, but obviously was not last night.

The guy I’d love to be in a room with while this was all going down was Love. This was surreptitiously also a culling of nearly all the anti-Love sentiment from the non-Lebron players. All the non-Lebron players who gave Love any shit are gone. And this is also like, “Well, if Lebron leaves, look at the team we’re going to be giving you next year.”

Cavs got younger and better and got rid of the IT headache. Seems like they made some good moves, it will cause some havoc integrating all of those new faces so late in the season.

Knicks sitting on their hands.

Given my attitude at the time, I would have taken 1 pick, but my job is never on the line.

Phil had a guaranteed 25 mil contract and gravitas out the ass. He had no reason to care about what anybody thought about anything, so that narrative of yours is really silly, sorry.

@NYPost_Berman
1h1 hour ago
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As we’ve already reported, Knicks GM Scott Perry still has his eye on his former first-round lottery pick, Elfrid Payton of Orlando.

Phil had a guaranteed 25 mil contract and gravitas out the ass. He had no reason to care about what anybody thought about anything, so that narrative of yours is really silly, sorry.

Phil’s contract was not extended until April 2017. He was canned soon after.

Great, so Mills has a woody for Payton? Please don’t overpay.

Interesting flurry of action? Do any of the other east teams make panic moves now with the Cavs seemingly so improved?

Can the Knicks somehow take advantage?

It was definitely both first rounders

No one EVER confirmed what was on the table.

Right, which was moronic.

Disagree.

The long term record of rebuilds is WAY better using a combination of picks, trades, and free agents than it is with all draft picks. There still may be a few markets that are better off with just picks, but if you have options, you should use them all. After that you are simply debating execution not strategy. If you want to say he did not execute well, I agree. The Melo appeasement plan was a debacle.

He was actively avoiding first rounders and of the guys he got for Chandler, he declined Shane Larkin’s option before he played a minute for the Knicks because Phil wanted every scrap of available cap room to be able to split it on two star players.

Of course he wanted cap space to sign stars. That would be intelligent. That the stars did not come because the Knicks were not good enough yet was a lesson he could or should have learned from Donnie Walsh, but it was not critical. The idea should have been to fill the cap space with short term money and do it again later. But Then he went off plan again.

What killed him most was not having picks for 2 years. It pushed him in the direction he took.

No call up from the only winning Knicks team yet?

We’re going really small ball tonight…

Phil’s contract was not extended until April 2017. He was canned soon after.

Canned, as in chilling at his ranch collecting his guaranteed contract.

WOJ:

Denver is trading Emmanuel Mudiay to New York, league sources tell ESPN.

More:

Denver, New York and Dallas agreed on a three-way deal, league sources tell ESPN. Mudiay to Knicks; Devin Harris to Denver and Doug McDermott to Dallas.

Haha. Let the Mudiay era begin.

LT, Burke, and one of the seconds acquired in the Willy deal to Orlando for…
Payton and Hezonja.

Orlando will never go for it, but I wouldn’t offer any more than that. I think I’d rather just run with Burke and Frank the rest of this year, but Perry seems set on getting Payton.

Edit. Forget it. The Mudiay era begins.

Is Mudiay still terrible, though? McBuckets isn’t much to give up, considering how little he was playing. Just trying to calibrate my expectations.

Is Mudiay still terrible, though? McBuckets isn’t much to give up, considering how little he was playing. Just trying to calibrate my expectations.

Mudiay is still bad, but he’s been getting better, especially recently. It’s more about how little they gave up to get him. A guy who had no future to take a one year flyer on a guy who will only be 22 next year? That ain’t bad. I really don’t get it for Denver. Devin Harris? For serious?

Helps tank

Helps tank

Yeah, I was thinking that they could just give the team to Mudiay for the rest of the year. Let him just ball out. If he clicks, then great. If not, then tank-tastic.

CUT JARRET JACK RIGHT NOW DAMMIT.

So what happens to Jack and Burke? Neither should get to play much unless…….a Lee deal is upcoming?

A Mudiay/Frank backcourt would be… unusual, shooting-wise.

Defensively, though, Mudiay isn’t that bad (he has some major mental lapses, though). So they’d be a good defensive backcourt.

Woj says we also gave up a future 2nd. Still a scratch off ticket purchase, essentially.

Which 2nd? Please not the Chicago pick. I’d prefer the 2021 Orlando one…

Which 2nd? Please not the Chicago pick. I’d prefer the 2021 Orlando one…

He said future second, so likely not the Chicago pick.

Brian you think mudiay isn’t bad defensively? I’ve watched him a lot and I think he is really bad, an incredibly dumb defender.

Woj:

Denver and New York was swapping second-round picks in the three-way trade, league sources tell ESPN. Denver gets New York’s 2018 second-round pick via Clippers, and Knicks get Denver’s second-round pick via Portland.

Brian you think mudiay isn’t bad defensively? I’ve watched him a lot and I think he is really bad, an incredibly dumb defender.

Ha! I was just in the middle of editing that post to note that he makes a lot of dumb mental lapses on D, but he has not been that bad overall.

OK, that pick swap is not so bad.

Wait, a pick swap AND another second or just the swap?

The trade might be getting worse…

Mudiay was the most inevitable Knick ever. I wish they could have had Faried included in this.

Beat writers saying Knicks asking for a first whenever anyone calls about Lee. Which means Lee won’t be traded, probably. Barring some ridiculous protections like the Nerlens trade.

The Mudiay and Burke moves show me the Knicks don’t have confidence in Frank’s ability to develop into a full time point guard. That’s cool with me as I agree that Frank doesn’t have the attack mentality that’s necessary to be a point guard in today’s game, but he’s definitely a guard. Best case, I see him developing into the guard version of Draymond Green as he gets stronger and nastier on defense. Point guard is a high usage position in today’s game, and Frank is a 15-23% USG% type of player. Taking shots on Mudiay and Burke with an eye to the draft for Trae Young should be the play this year. I like the Mudiay deal.

Rose, Wroten, Mudiay… who’s the next worst PG of the last three years? MCW?

This Mudiay trade is kinda good. Not a good player but we didn’t give away anything substantial.

It sounds like straight swap

It sounds like straight swap

It’s possible. I guess we’ll find out soon when the deal is confirmed.

Wait what a swap and a second

A line-up of Mudiay, Frank, Lance, Hicks and Kornet and my 23 win prediction can come true. Plus we can end up with Trae Young.

Isola:

The Knicks could have acquired Elfrid Payton, a Scott Perry favorite, but they would not include Frank Ntilikina in the deal with Orlando. Instead, they went after Mudiay.

Brian,

I’m glad you are a good guy. At least we remain cordial even though we are never going to agree on Phil or how to rebuild. 🙂

I’m not going to accept a scenario that would have loaded us with assets because you want to believe it. The only thing that came close to being verified was that Phil did not want to take on Boozer’s contract. I think he may have mentioned the cap space issues himself. Nothing Chicago was said to be doing or offering was verified. We have to move on from that.

He didn’t have picks because he didn’t want to acquire them. He pushed himself in the direction he took when he signed Melo to that awful contract. The contract that he did because he thought it was a good idea and not because he “had” to or that he was going to somehow be fired right after being hired by not keeping Melo.

The unbiased truth is that he still thought Melo was a good player and that he could build around him. But from day 1 he wanted to build young via picks and with more seasoned players taking a hybrid approach (sustainable is the word he used). Not having those two 1st round picks is the main reason we aren’t in great shape. It cost us 2 years of the youthful side of the rebuild.

Look at the Lakers.

They are 4 years and 5 1st round picks into their rebuild and they are throwing those same players around like they have the plague now. They are looking to sign top veteran free agents. The “all picks” approach doesn’t work UNLESS you are incredibly lucky, have the patience of a Hindu holy man, or are the 76ers (and the jury is still out them for a few more years).

What he was trying to do was fine. It was the execution in the final year (Noah etc..) and the empty cupboard of picks he inherited that are the reason we are screwed.

@258

Phew

Let’s move mudiay for Payton

Lots of minutes available tonight!

First reaction,
people well into the Nuggets team (Matt Moore for instance) always said that he isn’t there on work ethic and maturity.
Kids could mature so let’s see, he’s a lottery ticket and next year we’re tanking anyway.
At least they’re trying…

I’m sorry for McD but he wasted his few chances.

I’m not going to accept a scenario that would have loaded us with assets because you want to believe it.

Not “loaded with assets” perhaps, but with more first rounders than he ended up having and without a terrible Melo contract that continues to clog their cap via Kanter. In other words, not saying that they would have been in some amazing shape, but they would have been in a lot better shape now than they are with what Phil did.

His hybrid approach was foolish from the start and looked even more ridiculous when the cap exploded after he made a bunch of poor moves to free up, like, $5 million in cap space.

Look at the Lakers.

They are 4 years and 5 1st round picks into their rebuild and they are throwing those same players around like they have the plague now. They are looking to sign top veteran free agents. The “all picks” approach doesn’t work UNLESS you are incredibly lucky, have the patience of a Hindu holy man, or are the 76ers (and the jury is still out them for a few more years).

The Lakers categorically did not go the “All picks” way. They abandoned that plan right away by signing Mozgov and Deng to longterm contracts and were lucky that they were so bad at it that they still ended up getting Ball.

Mudiay stinks but he’s only 21 so maybe he won’t always stink as bad? That’s about the best I can do with this one.

As of right now this is probably bad news for Burke, even if Jack is released?

They have a team option for Burke, but yeah, it ain’t looking good for him. Oh man, Horny is going to hate Mudiay.

I’m 100% good with this trade. McD is a nice shooter and he had some nice chemistry with KOQ but is at best a poor man’s Kyle Korver (ie. Korver is a rotation guy but not a starter, so McD is a borderline rotation player). We have team control of Mudiay until the pivotal offseason of 2019-20 and even then have him restricted, so if he’s good we can keep him and if he’s bad we just let him go. Physically talented, improving numbers every year (not a high bar given how bad his #s were). Worth a flyer. Worst thing that happens is he’s the elite tank driver that DRed mentioned.

Plus now THCJ has to root for Mudiay.

Wow mudiay. I’m the stupid guy of us wanting to draft mudiay. I guess a mcD to mudiay is a good deal

Doug McDermott is a bum who couldn’t take minutes away from Lance Thomas, who I believe is the least talented player in the NBA. He let me down big time when we gave him an opportunity to start and make a ton of money and he proceeded to wet the bed. I’m glad he’s gone. If I’m the Knicks I’m sending Mudiay to the G League and letting him rehab his game the way they did with Trey Burke.

watch burke outplay both frank and mudiay in practice, and, out on the court in games…

sunday against the pacers we should get a better idea of what the team will look like going forward…

horny must be ecstatic – perfect opportunity for him to play with lineups the rest of the year…no consistency required…

My only memory of Vonleh is of him beating the crap out of KP the last time they faced each other.

Mudiay, Timmy, Beas should be interesting if all on the court at the same time…

Taking low opportunity cost fliers on young players with obvious talents but major deficiencies is exactly what teams in our situation are supposed to do. Most likely scenario by far is that he drives our tank effectively for the next two years. Some small percent chance that he continues to improve (the 3 point shooting improvements are encouraging) and becomes a reasonable young player. Either way works out fine given where we’re at. This hopefully signals that management is realistic about our prospects for the next 18 months and not that they believe Mudiay is good (which I’m concerned about). You also have to factor in that the Knicks have probably the worst player development track record in the NBA. But that’s just the horse we’ve hitched our wagon to I guess.

Adam Marres, via Twitter:

One last note: Mudiay has not talked to the Denver media all season. He has stonewalled us all. And Denver is a SOFT media market. Curious to see how he handles NYC.

This could be a very big problem.

Lol.

@Kyle_OQuinn:
@emmanuelmudiay do you cut backdoor?? ? I’ll explain later. See you soon G.

I mean, the Knicks one day having Mudiay was inevitable, glad that’s out of the way, now we only need to pick up Tyreke Evans and Rudy Gay somehow.

Jokes aside, meh, not so terrible this time at least, he’s young and has some upside and it appears we weren’t keeping McDermott anyway. Give him the ball and let him chuck and cut Jack, then it’s fine.

Now watch Hornacek starting Jack still and burying Frank on the bench forever.

If I was going to take a chance on a bad lottery pick from the 2015 NBA draft, I would have gone (in order):

1. De’Angelo Russell (before the season)
2. Stanley Johnson
3. Jahlil Okafor
4. Mario Hezonja
5. Mudiay

@294 one of my fears also

I don’t have much of a problem with the Mudiay deal. He’s still very young for a PG, but Denver has been shopping him for quite awhile. They must be pretty convinced he’s not going to become much even though his boxscore stats are trending up.

I like McBuckets, but it’s not a major loss.

I think Mudiay is mostly a lottery ticket that’s very likely to be worthless, but I did meet a guy that won the lottery years ago.

Supposedly rose is getting waived. Going to t wolves, maybe?

What do we think about this?

Elfrid Payton to PHX for a 2nd rd pick. Wow.

Ugh.

Elfrid Payton to PHX for a 2nd rd pick. Wow.

Daaaaaaang. Okay, that makes this move look worse in comparison.

I guess the rationale is with Payton you’d have half a season to decide if you want re-sign him or let him walk. Mudiay has a few years left on his deal still I believe, so you get to kick the tires a little longer.

Woj: Elfrid Payton to PHX for a 2nd rd pick

Isola: The Knicks could have acquired Elfrid Payton, a Scott Perry favorite, but they would not include Frank Ntilikina in the deal with Orlando. Instead, they went after Mudiay.

Uh, what am I missing?

Probably Orlando thought they were still dealing with Mills

Hot Take Grades:

Mudiay…A (no risk, potential there, year to evaluate)
Lee……….D (requiring a 1RP, take expiring, use cap for rental or 1and1 deal and play Dot/Baker)
KOQ……..A (not trading most productive player for 2RP when could be re-signed dirt cheap)
Nance……F (should have done Deng/Nance for Lance/McD/KOQ)

Highly on demand Courtney Lee

not trading lee is a huge loss….. i’m not sure why our asking price is so high…. th2 is playing his position and is woefully out of position at SF….

I’m pumped for new tank commander Mudiay

I hoped they’d move at least one of Lee, OQ, or LT. Instead, they move Willy and McD.

Okay with McD, but still worried that we’ll rue the Willy deal for many years to come.

What in the world will the rotations now look like, esp. at PG? Surely Jack either gets released or goes to the end of the bench?

Meanwhile, Jack is still on the team….

Well I don’t like Payton that much, but yeah, incredible gap between Frank and a 2nd rounder

We hope.

and beasley….

The Knicks apparently did offer a second for Payton- that Memphis second will certainly be a lot better than the Clips second which is what the Knicks could have offered-

We could have offered the Chicago 2RP. Not saying we should or shouldn’t have, only that it was there.

it’s after 3. Can I go back to posting made up things that Willie and KP said to each other in Spanish?

What doesn’t make sense is valuing McDermott as extraneous given our state, saying he’s worth a likely-shitty young player, then saying Lee/Oq are not extraneous and are worth more. Doesn’t compute.

You really have to wonder exactly what they are asking for Lee when it keeps getting reported that there is a lot of interest, but the asking price is too high. If anything, 1st round picks are being overvalued in this market. You aren’t going to get a 1st round pick for Lee. If the offers are total trash (a 2nd rounder and an expiring), I think waiting is the right thing to do. They have time to move Lee. Trash offers will be there draft night and next year. In the mean time, Frank/Dotson are going to get a lot more minutes anyway. There is no downside to waiting a little more unless they are crazy enough to keep playing him full time instead of fewer minutes and giving him games off to play Frank/Dotson.

So KOQ was not traded either.

Personally, I think that probably means they already know they can bring him back on a fair deal. If so, I sign off on that.

RE: the Frank to Orlando rumor – it’s quite possible that was to take Noah off our hands. It’s an incomplete rumor at the very best.

I would characterize this as a no-harm trade deadline. I know everyone was upset about Willy being shipped off at a sell-low time, but I’m not sure Mills/Perry will be proven wrong on that.

I’m a bit intrigued by Mudiay. If our coach was Kenny Atkinson then I’d be a lot more intrigued.

If Jarrett Jack gets more than 5-10 minutes of token time on the court I will be quite annoyed now that we literally have 3 young PGs that need minutes and reps.

No more Jarrett Jack please I need to scream my frustrations at Emmanuel

And I’m fine with not making the Orlando move. It’s possible that Orlando had the choice of trading Payton to the Knicks or the Suns, and that the Memphis 2nd is just better than the Chicago 2nd in PHX’s eyes.

Payton is probably serviceable, but even as a RFA is likely to make 2x what Mudiay will make. And Mudiay is still REALLY young.

Nick Young is still top of the charts for most inevitable Knick. Although with a TS% over 58 perhaps I am mistaken.

Mudiay? It’s just a total headscratcher. He sucks. I don’t know, certainly room for him to improve. But yeah.

Love what the Cavs GM did.

mudiay is bad… but you don’t get good players for nothing

You do if you’re Cleveland.

It’s kinda hard to evaluate defense, especially when your rim protector is Nikol Jokic. I’m not saying Mudiay is a good defender, just saying he might not be the worst defender in the league. Of course we won’t know how true that is since our elite rim protector is down and Kanter is the guy in the paint, but it’s a theory.

Jeff Hornacek now has no excuse to go to a 2 point guard line up. With Jack, Mudiay, Burke, Ntilikina, Dotson, Hardaway Jr, and Lee on the roster, he has to play our guys. We have no depth at the 3 and LT will be seeing time as a 4 with KP down. I need 2 point guard line ups.

glad we didn’t do anything crazy to get elfrid…that is definitely an encouraging sign…

also, if we can keep o’quinn around for 6 to 7 million a year – not bad…

plenty of time to move lee in the next couple of years…

let noah rot…sooner or later he’ll realize he’s not getting any younger – and, if he wants a shot at playing basketball again – he’s going to have to give back some money…somewhere around 10 million or so…more than likely he’ll be on vet minimums the rest of the time he’s in the nba…

maybe we can also keep beasley on the team for 4 to 5 million a year for a couple of years…he’s honestly been a much better locker room guy than i ever would have imagined…

Over/Under on Beas and THJ shots for tonight game?

I think we have only 9 players…

Jack could play 35 and LT will be in the 40’s

Overall, in value terms, I would say we lost both trades very mildly, but we have a few extra wildcards long term. So if you are a results oriented thinker instead of a value oriented thinker, there’s a chance we can still come out on top.

So Cleveland gives up Thomas, Wade, Shumpert, Crowder, Frye and Rose and gets Hill, Hood, Clarkson and Nance?

They also gave up their own 1st round pick I believe.

When trading for Mudiay generates mostly neural to positive feedback you know your team is beyond hopeless.

Before the KP injury I was okay with keeping some vets and building a winning team slowly but without him I see no upside in Lee, Jack, Thomas or Beasley.

We moved Willy and McDermott and got Mudiay. That’s a bad return and I even like the Mudiay trade.

Jack is not getting waived. I wouldn’t be surprised if he remains the starter and I expect no less than 20 minutes a game from him.

We have no forwards other than Thomas and Beasley, two players that have no place on a tanking Knicks team. We have Lee who will do nothing other than hurt our draft pick this year and next and by the time KP is healthy again he will be 34.

Why not take a flyer on a young forward somewhere so we’re not forced into 60 minutes of Thomas and Beasley a night. If you are going to trade for another young point guard why not move Jack so he can play.

If you are going to trade the only young center for nothing why not get another young center.

Willy trade – D
Mudiay trade – B
Not moving on from Jack, Thomas and Beasley – F
Not moving Lee – D

Over all a F for Perry.

Also book it – Jack, Beasley, Thomas and Lee over 100 minutes a game for the remainder of the season.

Mudiay WILL improve. How do I know? There’s nowhere to go but up.

Yeah. Here’s a list of all the <24 year old players over the past 40 years that have put up a negative WS/48 and negative VORP:

http://bkref.com/tiny/mdl6P

There are 35 people on the list and the only names on it that went on to have any impact in the league whatsoever is our own Allen Houston. (I guess Rony Seikaly quietly managed a few decent years, but it turns out he was actually a DJ moonlighting as an NBA player http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/features/rony-seikaly-dj-interview/ )

Who knows. Maybe Mudiay can turn his basketball body into basketball talent, unlike Tony Wrotten and the other characters on the list. And the jury is still out on Zach LaVine and Brandon Ingram, who have both shown improvement since their horrid rookie years.

But it's a real long shot.

How many RAPMs does Mudiay have?

Bottom line…we did nothing to cripple the franchise. After decades of those gut-punch moves, I’ll take that.

@364
I’m not real thrilled either, but they did also get two (possibly early) seconds for Willy. I still wish they had not done that, but c’est la vie.

At the beginning of the season, my hopes were to enjoy the young core of KP, Willy, and Frank. Now that is Frank and Mudiay….

I can understand why they can’t release Jack yet, but once Mudiay is onboard, it will be foolish to continue to play JJ. At this point, playing Jack and Beas a lot of minutes is just helping them play for their next contract rather than do what is best for the team — tank.

For all you tankaholics (yes, now is tank time), Mudiay is another high pick that a lot of people here were drooling about. . . . as high as #1!

Having good picks is preferable to not having them, but they are not a panacea. There are loads of busts and semi busts in the lottery every single year.

If we should happen to get a disappointing player in this year’s draft and/or Frank doesn’t develop like we hope, we will be several years into this rebuild, still suck, and still be discussing tanking.

The best case scenario is that Frank develops, KP comes back stronger and better than ever, we make a great selection in this year’s lottery, make another solid selection in the lottery next year because KP is out for most of the year. Then we’ll still be still 3-4 years away from being good because we’ll have a bunch of 19 -23 years old kids running around without a clue.

Yeah. Here’s a list of all the <24 year old players over the past 40 years that have put up a negative WS/48 and negative VORP:

There’s a couple of flaws in that report. First, notice that a lot of those players on the list posted negative WS/48 at the age of 22 or 23. That’s very different from a negative WS/48 at the age of 19. He’s got a .031 WS/48 so far at the age of 21. Remember 19yos were not common in the NBA until relatively recently so a 40 year report is somewhat limited. Second, the 1 guard has the steepest learning curve so you really need to sample only 19yos who were starters at that position and I suspect the sample size wouldn’t be large enough.

Nobody argued more strenuously against drafting Mudiay a few years ago. That said, it’s difficult for a 19yo whose body and mind are still developing to be an NBA starter at the toughest position to learn. I think Mudiay is a textbook case of what could go wrong in those instances. He’s older and more mature now. He doesn’t even have to start (Burke). He’s got the body and speed to be an NBA 1 guard. The odds are against his being an above average player but it’s worth a shot given our situation. We should be in tank mode next year playing the youngins. The only real cost here is the opportunity cost of not giving those minutes to someone else.

Mudiay = $1 scratch off lottery ticket.

Most likely it will be worthless, but we may get our money back or win a few dollars. Plus like they say in the advertisement, “Hey, you never know”.

guards especially pg’s take a long time to develop…. mudiay probably won’t ever be a star.. but he can still be something like an ok starter if he continues to make progress on his shooting…. guys like dragic… hill… or even a guy like cory joseph… took a very long and windy road to get to where they are now…. it takes a lot of skill to develop to be able to score on a court where you are the smallest guy….

he has to work hard though and buy-in…. his play from whenever i saw him was just very sloppy all around…. almost a mirror opposite of frank’s game which is very careful but passive… it’s interesting to have those two on the same team and hopefully they overcome their deficiencies….

Mudiay was in the discussion to be the #1 overall pick. He was scouted as a natural, pass first PG that needed work on his shot.
So what happened to him?

@382
From a distance, it might be maturity and work ethic. And apparently those may have not improved in 3 years.

Maybe being dumped in a very minor trade will motivate him?

@368

He’s absolutely terrible on every metric. We’ve reached convergence!

There’s a couple of flaws in that report. First, notice that a lot of those players on the list posted negative WS/48 at the age of 22 or 23. That’s very different from a negative WS/48 at the age of 19. He’s got a .031 WS/48 so far at the age of 21.

Emmanuel Mudiay’s rookie season represents the second worst ws/48 of the modern era (only Sasha Pavlovic’s 2010 campaign was worse).

Sure, he’s improved his FT shooting, which isn’t nothing, but he still has the all-time lowest career ws/48 among people that have played as many minutes as he has. (Sasha Pavlovic’s season was an outlier, as he was pretty good when he played alongside LeBron James:)

when you watch mudiay you will see Derrick Rose on both ends (as a knick). I know he’s 38-108 from 3 but he’s still been really bad on long 2s so not much here to trust in that sample. if we didn’t give up anything but a meaningless swap then who cares but if you’re expecting a pass first pg who can defends and just needs to shoot well that ain’t him.

when you watch mudiay you will see Derrick Rose on both ends (as a knick).

Derrick Rose played with his head down always looking to get to the hole. Passing was the last thing on his mind.
Mudiay plays with his head up looking for open teammates.

Not an encouraging article. The kid may just have awful BBIQ:
https://hoopshabit.com/2017/11/28/denver-nuggets-the-devolution-of-emmanuel-mudiay/

Mudiay plays with his head up looking for open teammates.

He may look for them, but he rarely finds them.

Career assists: 4.3
Career turnovers: 2.5

gain the only relevant benchmark here is 19yo rookies who were starting PGs. How many of those have there been? Not many at all.

Okay, here it is:

http://bkref.com/tiny/oZtGa

There have been 13 teen-aged guards that have been given meaningful minutes in the NBA.

Among them, Mudiay, of course, ranks last.

(And, hey, with a little luck, Frank Ntilikina could finish the season #2 on the list, right behind Mudiay!)

Listen, I’ve not spent a lot of time on team optimist and I’m definately not an apologist for management, but let me at least say this…

The NBA has changed a ton in the last few years. The traditional big man is all but dead when only a couple of years ago you could get 2 1Rps for Mozgov. The Cavs’ only two bigs are Nance and Thompson for god’s sake. Lebron and KD might play minutes opposite each other at Center in the finals.

Meanwhile no-one wants to take on money and no-one wants to give up picks. If you can’t get a first for Smart or Evans you sure as hell cant get one for Willy or for $32m of Lee until 2020.

I’d still prefer we’d taken the hit and sold low on Lee but kept Willy to test his upside until the end of the year. But I’m not sure we’ll really understand the deals of the last few days and their value today (as opposed to their value compared to previous years) until we’ve seen whether Willy turns into something elsewhere. Remember, in past trades we gave up Lampe and Milos, who were both going to make us regret it, and who never made any kind of mark in the league. I have some sympathy with those who point out that the training staff work with the players every day, and maybe Willy just doesn’t really have it…

Mudiay is better for us than Elfrid would have been. Elfrid is a better player, but that would hurt the tank. He’s also a RFA this summer. If we let him walk, then we acquired him for nothing. If we re-sign him, then we’re blocking Frank and hitching our wagon long-term to a very flawed player.

Better to evaluate Mudiay for 1.5 seasons and see if there’s something there. Most likely he’ll suck, help the tank, and we let him go. But there’s a chance he turns into something, given his age and high school pedigree.

This is the kind of flyer we should be taking more of. Now waive Jack.

There have been 13 teen-aged guards that have been given meaningful minutes in the NBA. Among them, Mudiay, of course, ranks last.

Much better but you have to eliminate Davis who was an SG/SF type. Also I’m pretty sure Monk, Exum and Lavine played significant minutes off the ball versus being the starting PG like Mudiay who played almost all of his minutes at that position. After adjustments, I don’t think there’s a large enough sample in that list to draw any meaningful conclusion about Mudiay or Frank. A stronger argument against Mudiay is that he hasn’t progressed that much in the last two years.

its been a while that we are “winners” in trade deadline.
Lee wanting to be a knicks is special. Lets just keep him during his contract. hes a good locker room guy and could be a vital part of our playyoff run next season

Next season should be the single most blatant tank season in Knicks history.

we will get the pick this season, next season should all about winning.
Im feeling regret that Payton can be had for a second round pick.
We should be buying for him at that price.

OH. KP will be injured til next season. I missed that. I thought he could play by the season starts. Now i agree. top pick this year, another tank mode next year. 2 draft pick which i hope is not a bust plus KP and the others. it will be an interesting next next season.

As far as Mudiay the player goes, he’s pretty terrible, but he’s been somewhat less terrible as his career as gone on, and he is still only 21. I think realistic chances of Mudiay turning into a perennial all star are probably gone, but there is probably a chance he develops into an averagish player.

when you watch mudiay you will see Derrick Rose on both ends (as a knick). I know he’s 38-108 from 3 but he’s still been really bad on long 2s so not much here to trust in that sample.

He is bad on long twos, and middle range twos, but he shoots most of his 3’s assisted. He essentially never takes catch and shoot two point shots (he’s 1-3 this season).

OH. KP will be injured til next season. I missed that.

Yeah, his particular injury typically takes about 10-12 months to recover from, so it’ll be about this time next year when he will probably make his return.

But yeah, 2019-20 should hopefully be a fun season, at least!

i picked Mudiay in our fantasy. please give him plenty of minutes. good for the tank and maybe he will develop

Next year is the first year of the flattened lottery odds. Which of course means we will have the worst record in the league and fall to the #5 spot in the draft.