[Posting and Toasting] – Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:00:00 GMT
- Knicks waive Marcus Morris Sr. & Chuma Okeke, more moves expected
- New York Knicks waive former first-round pick from Auburn
- Knicks waive former Celtics forward after blockbuster trade
- New York Knicks Release 13-Year NBA Veteran, Ex-Clippers Starter
- How much better are the Knicks after trading for KAT?
[New York Post] – Mon, 30 Sep 2024 01:54:00 GMT
- Julius Randle posts goodbye to New York after Knicks trade
- Reports: Knicks acquiring Karl-Anthony Towns in 3-team deal
- Grading the Knicks’ trade for Karl-Anthony Towns that sent Julius Randle, Donte DiVincenzo to the Timberwolves
- Knicks trading Julius Randle to Timberwolves for Karl-Anthony Towns in three-team deal
- Julius Randle Thanks New York in IG Photo After Rumored Knicks-Timberwolves Trade
[Celtics Blog] – Sun, 29 Sep 2024 19:26:05 GMT
Celtics respond to Knicks blockbuster trade with post-practice duck-duck-goose
[New York Daily News] – Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:47:43 GMT
Kristian Winfield: Losing Donte DiVincenzo not end of the world for Knicks
[Forbes] – Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:00:51 GMT
How The New York Knicks New Additions Help Them
[Empire Sports Media] – Sun, 29 Sep 2024 15:12:46 GMT
Knicks have big plans for young sharp-shooter to replace Donte DiVincenzo
[RealGM.com] – Sun, 29 Sep 2024 22:22:00 GMT
Mikal Bridges Unlikely To Sign Two-Year Extension With Knicks With Preference For Longer Deal In 2025
[FanSided] – Sun, 29 Sep 2024 20:06:36 GMT
An emergency Knicks-Pelicans trade to fully embrace KAT era in New York
148 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.09.30)”
Media Day is starting shortly, and nobody can talk about the trade or the players involved because the trade’s not official yet. So this will be a pretty pointless exercise for all involved.
Meanwhile, having listened to and read an unhealthy amount of analysis of the trade over the weekend, from both people specializing in one team or the other or just top NBA analysts like Vecenie, it’s fascinating how little consensus there is. Some thing we obviously won the trade; some think Minnesota did. Many think it was a lose-lose trade. Not sure I’ve encountered a single win-win take so far.
Yeah, Alan…very weird! I wonder how long it will take to get the details of this trade hammered out…seems like training camp opening tomorrow makes it imperative to get it done so that there is a smooth opening day. Not that it’s that big of a deal, but it would be nice to start off on the right foot.
Alan, I’ve done the some thing in the last couple of days and I agree that the differences in opinions are staggering.
Also, I’m somewhat puzzled by respected guys talking about Randle’s “gravity” and “ability to space the floor”, and basically just a few of them pointed out that he’s still recovering from a serious injury (and two surgeries, ankle and shoulder, in two years).
I’m far from thinking that the trade is clear cut one way or the other, but to me it was a financial move for the Wolves and a basketball move for us (maybe questionable, but still a basketball move).
If looked solely through the lens of sending out iHart, Randle, DDV and bringing in Mikal and KAT, I can see the consternation.
But it is not useful to factor iHart in to the equation. He was a goner from the moment his original contract was signed.
However, it is certainly valid to question whether our outlook is better with KAT and Mikal, but without Randle, DDV, and all of our tradeable first rounders and Bojan’s outgoing salary.
I truly don’t feel strongly about the answer to that question. There’s some very cautious optimism on my part, but I always felt some comfort about our prospects knowing we had all those firsts in the holster. This is the first time I am looking at things through the lens of “This is it!” It’s very unsettling.
It really comes down to: How good are KAT and Mikal?
-KAT is a prolific offensive machine with question marks about his grit and defensive awareness. Can he blossom into a legit two-way player or is it two late? Can he learn to pass a little bit more than he does now? Can he synergize with the high-IQ Nova core? Has his skin thickened enough to not bristle at Thibs when he gets on his case?
-Mikal is the most durable player in the league and a consummate two-way player at the most valuable position in today’s game with some very slight concerns about his offensive ceiling. Can he benefit from the spacing and truly take over some of Julius’ creation role? Can he shoot well enough from 3 to justify the loss of DDV? (obviously Deuce and others are part of this quandary as well.)
I suppose that these are better questions to have than “how are we going to patch in 48 minutes at the 5 without a domino effect down the rotation?”
It seems like it was both a basketball and financial move for us as we didn’t want to extend Randle to a huge new contract coming off a major injury that might take away what makes him so good as a basketball player.
From what I read, Mitch isn’t back till December or January and even Randle was going to miss training camp at least. So if you wanted to play Randle at the 5 to start the season, now you gotta implement that on the fly in games instead of in training camp. Maybe you think early season games don’t matter but IMO, a championship aspiring team should want to go into the regular season healthy and ready to rack up early season wins so they can secure a playoff spot early and rest dudes later. A lot of the teams that end up winning it all do really well early in the regular season.
Now we have a dude who can play the 5 and play it really well and we can start the season with him as our 5 while we either wait for Mitch to return or trade him. And we can truly evaluate what the team really needs without questions about Randle’s healthy, etc…before the trade deadline.
As far as the Nova thing. I think its good Leon did this now. The Nova Knicks is cool but 4 players might be too much and trading Divo does kind of send the message that clique is not above the team. Plus it gives Hart, Mikal and Brunson some time before hte season starts to process it and move on. Plus it does open up space for McBride and Divo could potentially been unhappy with a reduced role after such a great season. As someone said, with Mikal he almost becomes a luxury.
I think we’re going to be very fucking good and I am ready to fully embrace and cheer for KAT. He seems like a good dude and it feels like he’s matured in the last few years. He’s undeniably VERY talented. I think it’s going to work. He’s gonna pull bigs out of the paint all game and Brunson, Mikal and OG are gonna feast because of him. Thibs will tinker and get the defense in a good place by the end of the season.
I do think we need to trade Mitch OR find a way to get another serviceable back up Center.
I think a large part of the reason there is a difference of opinion and no win-win is that rarely do two very good teams who were projected to be even better make a substantial swap like this. In fact I cannot think of a single instance.
He was a goner ever since he wildly outperformed everyone’s expectations 🙂 There isn’t a single soul who would have predicted the guy who had to scrounge to get 8.5M/Y would be getting 29.5M/Y two years later. Not no one (to channel Katt Williams)
Great points swifty and BE.
Bernie,
Yeah, totally. I feel like trades like this used to happen back in the day but not in the last few decades.
The only one I can think of is when Detroit and Denver swapped Billups and AI. At the time both were “good” but sort of declining from their peak (especially Detroit). That trade worked out way more for Denver than it did for Detroit but both of those players (especially AI) were no longer in their prime.
This is one of the biggest trades of prime players we’ve had in awhile where neither team is doing it to grab a bunch of picks and kickstart a rebuild.
As far as the starting 5, I do think Thibs should really consider starting Precious at the 4 and leave Hart as the 6th man.
I think OG us better as a 3 and Mikal as a big 2 is super imposing. Precious and OG have good defensive synergy and I think HART being the leader of the bench, which is now a bit weaker, is a good thing. If you have HART and McBride on the bench, that should be enough with Sims and Kolek to hold it down. Hart’s gonna play a shit ton of minutes and probably close out a lot of games regardless. But I think his veteran leadership could be very valuable for the bench now that DDV is not there.
Swifty, I remember that after Randle got hurt, we debated whether the team would be better off starting Precious or Hart, in part because of that same issue of OG at the 3 vs the 4. This soon proved moot once OG got hurt, but before then, Thibs chose to go with Hart. I can’t imagine him not doing that again now. Even if a starting lineup that features KAT, Brunson, Bridges, and OG would make it easier to have a total non-shooter like Precious on the court with them until it’s time for Hart and Deuce to come in and wreak havoc.
IMO, at a certain point you have to stop thinking in terms of assets and who won the trade and start thinking in terms of “do we have a championship caliber player for each position that fit well together?”
If you think the team may have overpaid along the way and having more assets would allow you to fill a huge hole somewhere, then I think there are questions to be asked.
Personally, I don’t think we could do much better than Towns, OG, Bridges and Brunson. I’m leaving off Hart because I think he’s a plus role player that’s going to fit that unit fine with his rebounding, defense, and playmaking.
We talked about OG and Bridges as great targets for what seemed like a year or two. Well, we have both of them. I don’t even want to begin to talk about some of the names that have been tossed around here lately for the C spot. They were mostly 2nd and 3rd stringers. Then there was Kessler. Kessler is a very good prospect, but he’s not going to be Towns.
The only thing I would question is the bench unit. I’m not sure we still have the depth and a scorer or potential hot hand scorer off the bench. We needed that last year after we traded Quickley. DDV was supposed to take over that role and now we don’t have one (at least that I see clearly). But I don’t think that’s so difficult to get at or before the deadline. I think we can get by without one in the 2nd unit with what we have. Maybe one of the young players (Kolek? ) will emerge or Payne will take that spot. I’m not a huge Payne fan as the backup PG, but he can get hot and score. Maybe he can play WITH Kolek.
Everyone who covers the NBA for a living seems to have reservations about KAT. The primary concerns I heard about were his ability to man the 5 defensively against Boston and Philadelphia, his career-long propensity for racking up stupid fouls, his lack of court awareness, his immaturity, the relationship with Thibs, and his ability to handle the NY heat when things don’t go well.
I didn’t come across anyone who thinks this is some Porzingis-type trade that propels us to championship level.
Mostly people just seemed sad that two teams everyone like got broken up.
I don’t like starting Precious at ALL.
There may be a matchup here or there where it makes sense, but a major purpose of trading Randle for Towns specifically was to open up the floor for Brunson to penetrate easier and kick it out to potentially four 3 point shooters if they doubled him off someone else. Adding Towns vs I-Hart or Mitch at C opens a ton of space, but going from Randle to Precious at PF makes it worse, especially with J-Hart out there. I think J-Hart is going to shoot better from 3 this year than last year. I think last year was just a random down year, but I don’t want Precious and J-Hart on the court together starting unless Precious miraculously develops a 3 in the off season.
Agree wholeheartedly with this. Our whole discussion gets re-calibrated to injuries and asking “Who is available to put us over the top” — for a few seasons at least.
That’s a long way from “Will Thibs ever stop playing Elfrid Payton?” or “Is Joachim Noah high out there?” or “Where the fuck is Derrick Rose?” or “Why did they trade Lin?” and on and on.
Maybe “ship (no longer) be sinking”? Haha. It’s a brand new world.
PS — thanks to whichever poster copied Leon’s “day one” message to all. I think Rose kind of nailed his stated goals. Whether he can get us to the top remains to be seen, obvs.
KAT is in New York, and wearing a Knicks cap: https://x.com/Peter_Baugh/status/1840753467612098615
Apparently, the Wolves did not give him a heads-up before the trade was made. And he obviously become a pillar of both that team and that market, so he had to have been thrown by the deal. On the other hand, he grew up in Jersey as a Knicks fan, Leon was his first agent, he has spoken glowingly about Thibs in recent years, etc., so I have to assume he either has gotten over the shock or will soon.
Another thing I gleaned from the unhealthy amount of media consumption over the weekend was that the Knicks wanted this trade to be Randle, Mitch, and Deuce. Minnesota insisted on Donte. It became a starting contest and Leon blinked.
He did a pretty good job on Jokic.
No one can guard Embiid when he’s healthy. You just don’t want him totally dominating some very overmatched smaller/weaker C. Plus, he’ll get some help from OG.
KP is a lot better now than he was early in his career when I think Towns was the much better player, but Towns matches up with him better than KP matches up with Towns.
The only concern I have is foolish TOs. He’s like Randle in that he’ll occasionally drive into a wall of players and turn it over or make a pass that makes you question what he was thinking.
At that point, it feels like six of one, half a dozen of the other. We’d have been even thinner with the trade Leon wanted to do, whether you anticipate Mitch returning to health by early 2025, or assume we will ship him elsewhere for more depth. Donte is better than Deuce, gives us more lineup versatility due to his size, and has a longer track record, but Deuce is a vastly better on-ball defender and give us different kinds of versatility, too.
Which version of the deal would y’all have preferred?
I don’t think blink it appropriate.
Mitch makes no sense for the T-Wolves. No way they were going to do that deal. That would have to be a 3 team trade. That’s where Mitch being hurt is problematical. There are probably plenty of teams that would be interested in Mitch if he was healthy and ready to go, but he’s a question mark right now. So any deal for Mitch may be on hold until he comes back unless they are willing to trade him for less than he’s probably worth.
Marc Berman likes the trade and now thinks the Knicks can win it all, if that’s not enough validation I dunno what else is!
They were asking Thibs about starting lineups and I wonder if the best thing would be to have an honorary 5th starter who just plays first 5 or 6 mins of the 1st and 3rd quarters before Hart enters the game. Someone like Shamet who can shoot and has started plenty of games in the past could be a decent fit in that situation.
Like I said, I want to consider starting Precious INSTEAD of Hart. Have Hart be the energy guy/6th man/leader of the bench mob.
The reasons I like the thought of starting Precious:
-He has great size for a PF
-He can protect the rim a little bit
-He is very switchable
-He doesn’t need the ball at all to be effective
-He puts Hart on the bench where he is more effective
-He makes Mikal a big 2, which is better than him being a small 3
-He makes OG a big 3, which is better than him being a small 4
If Precious starts, you now have one of the most imposing 2-3-4 defensive combos in the NBA without sacrificing any offense. That shores up the defensive weaknesses of Brunson and KAT.
I also do not believe in Josh Hart’ 3pt shooting. He has now had four seasons as a 33% or below 3PT%, including last year when he shot 31%.
I don’t think it is really that big of a deal either way and I would guess that a) Thibs is going to start Hart and b) who finishes games is far more important than who starts. But in any case, Hart’s shooting is always going to be an issue for me. I never feel comfortable when he goes up for a shot and am always relieved when it goes in. To be fair, he has made a bunch of pivotal 3’s in crunch time, but when he goes up I never feel like that’s the shot I want, unlike with Brunson or DDV. The form is just too wonky to give me confidence.
Hart on the floor with the Big 4 is gonna have a field day with all the room he’ll have on offense to cut and crash the boards. Will also be easier for him to drive too.
Yeah but Josh Hart on the three point line could put defenders right back in the paint. Just because we have a stretch 5 doesn’t mean we’re 5-out. If we’re playing the Celtics, for instance, yeah sure KAT will pull Porzingis away but now Jrue or Brown gets to play free safety.
Ok. I think I’m starting to warm up to this trade because Brunson in a 5-out offense with threats everywhere is gonna be crazy. That being said, I think Hart starts at the 3 and we use OG as a stretch 4. I don’t think Leon is done making moves by any stretch, but I trust he and Aller to make shrewd moves to fortify our bench. Maybe something like bringing Mook and Okeke back after the trade is finalized, and then using Sims and Achiuwa as trade pieces once Mitch is healthy. Like Z, I also like the idea of Achiuwa starting- but that means we need one of Sims or Hukporti to be consistent enough to handle 12 minutes a game as a true backup 5. It’s not necessary because Thibs can stagger KAT and Achiuwa easily. I just prefer some size and physicality behind KAT at the backup 5. Who knows? Maybe when it’s all said and done, we can finagle Richards to the roster somehow. Hell- I’d be willing to throw in the Wiz pick and Sims if they give us Richards
Nevertheless, I’m liking the trade more and more, but it still sucks to lose DDV.
I think this would be the case no matter who we went all-in on.
Wouldn’t you have mixed feelings if we traded for Embiid, Jimmy Butler, or PG? All have age/injury issues. Shit, I’d even be a Little “nervous” about bringing in Doncic.
No player is a perfect antidote, but at least Leon went and got two guys who are in their primes and stay relatively healthy (meaning Towns and Mikal — I guess we’ll see about OG).
One of the things that made us so good last year was our offensive rebounding. There is no doubt that both Precious and Hart are solid rebounders, but Precious is actually pretty elite as an offensive rebounder last year while Hart is nothing special, both with Toronto and the Knicks, and continued his excellent OREB% during the playoffs. He has to be accounted for in the dunker’s spot and in the paint.
Regarding the Celts, all of Jrue, White, Brown, and Tatum can physically handle the 6’5″ short-armed Hart. Put Precious in there on Tatum and now OG slides to Brown, Mikal slides to Jrue…and all of those guys are switchable. I fear that both Tatum and Brown will shoot right over Hart. I would really like to see how Precious works in that scenario.
The general negativity towards the deal from the pundits is greatly reassuring. They were so obviously wrong on the Grimes deal, and I think they’re generally wrong here. No one has time to watch every game, so they are responding to narrative. Narrative doesn’t change quickly and is often formed from early perceptions. Looking at the numbers from the last couple years tells a different story.
Hart just has to be serviceable as a 3pt shooter and actually take his wide open shots. Brown only shot 35% last year for the Cs. Hart just needs to get around that level… he’s done it before.
If he can’t and it’s a problem, maybe Deuce takes the starting spot — who knows? Thibs will have to see what’s actually working over the first month or so.
If Precious starts, you now have one of the most imposing 2-3-4 defensive combos in the NBA without sacrificing any offense.
i don’t see it the same way. i think precious takes much more away from the magic of having a genuine spacer at the 5 than josh. it’s not just that hart is a less bad 3pt shooter. he’s also a much smarter offensive player who can keep the gears moving as a ball mover, short roll passer and just a general 45 cut threat than what you get from a guy like precious. in fact i can think of a solid number of opponent lineups where i’d even favor jalen/deuce/og/mikal/kat over precious at the 4. i think you really want to lean into the spacing when you play kat at the 5, because the marginal help from a so-so weakside rim protector and some rebounding will not offset the outsized cost of adding non spacer, non ball-mover, non-pixie type to a stretch offense.
When talking about playing the 5 on defense, they did not mean his ability to play one-on-one defense vs a perimeter-based big like Jokic. That actually seems to be something he’s very good at. His numbers against Durant were solid, too, and it stands to reason he may cover Embiid as well as anyone can.
It’s about his ability to handle all the responsibilities Minnesota gave to Gobert that we will now be entrusting him to do: rotating, protecting the rim, switching onto guards in PnR action, staying out of foul trouble. I even heard a player analyst (I think it was Austin Rivers) say that simply keeping his hands up is a problem for him.
We have a great coaching staff for this. Maybe the best. But that was another problem everyone raised. No one seems confident that this guy at this stage of his career is going to let himself be drilled into a better player by a coaching staff that he previously resisted (and keep in mind he was rewarded handsomely for that obstinance so it’s been reinforced).
I’m not insisting all the bad things will come to pass I’m just raising the concerns because there are a lot.
ess, I totally agree…I was just pointing out that we have indeed gotten to this point. And actually, I kind of felt that way even before the trade because I didn’t in my wildest dreams think that a player of KAT’s caliber was attainable without a slew of unprotected firsts. But this is about as all-in as we can get because no one of Randle’s or DDV’s combo of trade value, salary, and eligibility is left to trade. Mitch’s value is compromised by injury…you might be able to package him with some permutation of Deuce, Sims, residual picks and rookies to acquire someone significant but the core of Brunson, KAT, Mikal, OG and Hart seems pretty etched in stone.
Or is it? Could Leon possibly consider trading Josh Hart at some point this year? I would assume absolutely not, but I felt the same way about DDV, so who knows?
IMO, most of the time we aren’t going to gain anything on defense with Precious starting relative to OG, Bridges and Hart who are all top defenders that play bigger than they are defensively. Yet we’d be losing a main reason for having a guy like Towns at C every single time Precious starts. IMO, you start Hart and if we are struggling with the matchup you make an adjustment.
It’s kind of like saying we should start Mitch and Towns together. That might make sense against a few teams, but night in amd night out it’s mostly just going to hurt spacing for Brunson and his ability to kick it out when the double/help comes off Precious or Mitch. So you do it when it makes some sense if they are beating you on size on that night.
I’d consider staring Deuce instead of Hart because he may be more reliable from 3 (we’ll see) and can defend, but then we lose rebounding.
I think OG will rebound better from the PF position than SF position (especially if asked to), but I don’t think he’ll rebound as well as Randle. Having J-Hart on the court takes care of rebounding. We saw what J-Hart can do on the boards when Randle was out in the playoffs. We may need J-Hart’s boards and can get them without sacrificing spacing on offense.
I don’t get the consternations about Hart in the starting lineup, I think he’s a perfect complement to the big 4.
That’s why we have OG, Bridges and Hart on the court.
They are all top perimeter defenders that can switch and won’t need help. They will be helping Towns and Brunson.
You can always nitpick. Almost no player is perfect.
Let’s see how other teams handle Brunson in space with 4 players to kick it out to.
Let’s see how they handle Brunson/Towns pick and roll and pick and pop.
The standard cannot be perfection. No player or team is perfect.
RIP Dikembe Mutombo
We are in a very good position. We probably aren’t quite as good as Boston (who was historically good last year) and perhaps not as good as OKC. We’ll see. The 76ers and improved Mavs are right there too. But we are in the mix. Upsets happen, injuries happen, trades happen etc..
pt I hear you but don’t really agree. I think you are underselling Precious’ offensive abilities, both as is and potential for growth. I also think you are underestimating the delta of offensive rebounding Precious provides as well as the differential on the defensive end.
In any case, I’m only talking about our starting lineup, not our “primary” or finishing lineup. Hart is going to play upwards of 30mpg no matter what, but in my opinion, having him be a jolt of energy as the first guy off the bench is more valuable than whatever marginal value he might give you as a formal starter. My thinking is that he would be best utilized as a potential 6MoY candidate. Bring him in at the 4-minute mark and let him rock out.
Wow, that’s a terrible loss. RIP
OAKAAK. Just an incredible character. I wish we’d gotten to directly root for him for a lot longer than we did. The team with him and Keith Van Horn was genuinely fun in a way that very few Knicks teams this century were, pre-Thibs.
People in hell want ice water, too.
Leon may have wanted to foist that package on MN, but the chances of them accepting that was essentially zero. Julius can opt out next year and is coming off a serious injury that may negatively impact his greatest attribute… the ability to maul people inside. Mitch is an injury prone poor man’s duplicate of Rudy which MN has zero use for. Deuce is a nice 8th man.
The idea that MN won a “stare down” is pretty loltastic. Especially since the best fake Randle trade Bobby Marks and Zach Lowe could come up with was Randle for Time Lord and Thybulle…. https://www.google.com/search?q=lowe+post+randle+fake+trades&client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=e6c6a1c4dd3e8b42&sca_upv=1&ei=Irv6ZvSaLciiptQP6b7RuAo&ved=0ahUKEwj0s9vP9eqIAxVIkYkEHWlfFKcQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=lowe+post+randle+fake+trades&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHGxvd2UgcG9zdCByYW5kbGUgZmFrZSB0cmFkZXMyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABSMNDUPoHWPc9cAF4AJABAJgBkQOgAdIRqgEHOS45LjQtMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCE6ACmxLCAgoQABiABBiwAxgNwgIOEAAYgAQYsAMYhgMYigXCAgsQABiABBiwAxiiBMICCxAAGLADGKIEGIkFwgILEAAYgAQYkQIYigXCAgYQABgWGB7CAggQABiABBiiBMICBRAhGKsCmAMA4gMFEgExIECIBgGQBgaSBwg1LjEzLjQtMaAH2lQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:4d05a8fa,vid:4M2-2Az5KhI,st:1661
I don’t think a lineup with Brunson, Towns, Bridges and OG is going to need any help with efficient offense. If anything, OG will be complaining about shots. If that lineup needs anything on offense it’s going to be a player that can create off the dribble. They are probably hoping that Bridges can take that secondary shot creation role, but I’d rather have Hart over Precious for that too.
Don’t get me wrong. I like Precious. I understand your points about him and understand some of the Hart’s uses off the bench and to close. I’d just rather have the space to start.
I have no idea what Thibs is going to do. He may start Deuce.
Just speaking of the Celtics, I actually prefer OG at the 4 on Tatum, Mikal at the 3 on Brown, and Hart at the 2 on White (plus KAT on Porzingis).
With Hart’s rebounding edge and Brunson’s scoring edge (especially with the lane newly open), I think we are now pretty close to even with the Celtics.
Boston has the edge on “chemistry” for now, so we might need another year for this lineup to solidify before we can make it past them to the Finals. But for now I’ll just say: Thank you, Leon! This is pretty much all you can ask from a front office.
“I don’t get the consternations about Hart in the starting lineup, I think he’s a perfect complement to the big 4.”
It’s not really consternation, it’s quibbling about optimal rotation strategies. Either starting lineup will be formidable and neither has any bearing on the finishing lineup, which is a far more important question, and which will almost certainly involve Josh Hart.
I just think that having a legit 6MoY candidate off the bench is a pretty standard feature of championship teams and Josh Hart seems to fit that role perfectly. Think Iggy on the Dubs. And I think Precious as a nominal starter provides some real benefits that more than justify bringing Hart off the bench.
Offensive rebounding is a lot less important when you excel at throwing the ball in the basket. The Knicks were #16 in the NBA in offensive eFG% last year, and I expect that number to soar.
The Knicks as a team had a .540 eFG% last year, and they’ll be subtracting a below-average eFG% player in Randle and adding a plus player in Towns. I also believe that Bridges should see a sizable bump in his eFG% moving to a more off-ball role.
That’s incredibly sad about Dikembe. One of the most lovable guys in NBA history. RIP big guy.
Sadly, RJ’s giving all those O-boards and Kobe assists to Toronto now 😢
Reading the tweets from Media Day, unsurprisingly few people are saying anything about anything. Other than, of course, Josh Hart, who remains the best:
More substantively:
I can definitely see precious as the 5th starter with KAT OG Bridges Brunson. KAT is actually a very good defensive rebounder at the 5, but the drop off in defensive rebounding from Julius to OG at the 4 is ginormous. Brunson OG Bridges are all subpar defensive rebounders also. So gonna need Hart or Precious when those 3 are on the floor. The deuce at the 2 lineups would be fire offensively but man that would be one of the worst defensive rebounding groups in the league.
All I was saying is that this isn’t a 5-out lineup just because we got a stretch 5. But that doesn’t mean there’s consternation. The Warriors were never 5 out with Draymond, and we weren’t 5 out with Hartenstein.
Putting Hart in that kind of role brings some problems, though. When Hart sets a screen for Brunson, for instance, he’s bringing Jrue Holiday along with him.
I think we’re going to have to get very creative with Josh, is all. If we just stand him at the three point line, it will lessen the impact of KAT.
Way’ment…Deek passed?? Say it ain’t so..
JK, I don’t think your PPP can ever be high enough. And Precious is more than just an offensive rebounder, he checks several boxes that Hart simply does not (and obviously vice versa.) I just think that the punch you get with Hart’s energy off the bench is more that worth whatever you lose by having Precious start, if you lose anything at all, which is at least debatable for the defense alone. Again, my main point is that Precious/OG/Mikal is a better 2-3-4 defensive alignment than OG/Mikal/Hart, and against certain lineups, significantly so. Whatever you lose offensively in those opening few minutes (if anything) will be made up for defensively and by the jolt of energy off the bench you get with Hart in the ensuing minutes.
He died of brain cancer, Poindexter. Only 58. Fuck cancer.
My preferred would be Brunson Mikal OG Hart KAT starting lineup. Hart is not a great shooter but a tremendous cutter and ball mover once he receives the ball on the cut. But Precious would probably be ok too, especially if the decision is made to bring Hart off the bench to to bolster those groups. The staggering of lineups are going to be very interesting.
I mentioned earlier in the thread, wouldn’t be surprised if the 5th starter is basically the 9th man who’ll just play first few mins of the 1st and 3rd quarters. Think someone like Shamet or Morris if they re-sign him. Kinda like Ronnie Brewer was for the 2013 team before he got hurt.
There’s a lot of historical examples of teams not starting their optimal lineup to bolster the punch off the bench. I think Iggy is the most analagous example to Hart but there are lots of others.
Woody went thru a bunch during that season by keeping JR on the bench. Brewer, Copeland, even started Camby a few times. Maybe even James White started a couple of times too.
For Riley with the Knicks it was Anthony Bonner! Even started Monty Williams a bunch of times his rookie year when Oak and Smith were hurt.
It’ll be nice to have the flexibility to either play big (Mikal at 2, OG at 3) or small (Mikal at 3, OG at 4). We’ll have an even better version of this available if and when Mitch gets back on the floor for us.
Maybe we could pick up a ring chasing vet who can shoot during the buyout phase of the season.
I thought Deuce’s reputation as a good on-ball defender took a massive nosedive in the playoffs. I love his shooting and his energy. He can be a mini-Donte off the bench offensively, but Donte was a much better defender.
Sad day indeed. Deek is one of my all time favs. The best paint defender, IMO, since Russell. And there hasn’t been one as good since, though Ben Wallace was REALLY good in his prime. He’s such a joy to watch on and off the court. We knew it was coming..but it still feels horrible.
Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo
Blessed travels, sir
Sad news about Mutombo, a great guy. RIP
RIP Dikembe Mutombo.
Go Mets!
We can use Hart as the PnR screener and spread the floor with Mikal, Kat and OG. That solves your “5 out” problem.
One thing about Josh is that he’s clutch/brave to shoot and make it when it counts. Snatched Donovan Mitchell’s chain in Cleveland and sent Maxey to Disney World for laying off him in game 6. In other words, he’s no punk from behind the arc.
That is so sad about Mutombo. He was such a great player (and human).
Him clutching the ball to his chest on the ground after The Nuggets upset the Sonics in the first round is one of my favorite 90’s NBA moments.
I’ll have to swat some paper towels away tonight and scream “NOT IN MY HOUSE” tonight in honor of him.
I’ll always remember sweeping Mutombo’s Hawks in the 2nd rd of the 1999 playoffs.
Don’t know much about Trey Murphy III but I sort of like the rumored trade…young 6’8” shooters are pretty valuable.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5803142/2024/09/30/new-york-knicks-jalen-brunson-nba-villanova/
Nothing earth-shattering in our new Athletic beat writer’s first big feature about the team, but it’s excellent reading nonetheless about our 1A, and about the focus that has gotten Brunson to this point.
Starting Precious alongside KAT pretty much defeats the purpose of acquiring KAT. Even if your center can shoot, it’s not “5 out” if there’s a total non-shooter in the lineup. Teams can just throw their center on Precious, ignore him from the arc, and lose nothing in terms of rim protection.
Hart if of course hardly a serious 3PT threat, but to put it a bit awkwardly he’s a good worst shooter in a lineup. Teams may sag off of him, but only because it’s the best of a bunch of bad options. If he hits 35% of his spot up threes, which is more than doable, it’s not a great strategy. Plus he brings so much more to the table offensively than Precious in other areas.
I’m actually Precious-curious this season and think he might surprise some people. We can definitely play him alongside KAT in certain lineups and I vastly prefer him to Sims as the full-time backup 5.
But since we’re paying for 5 out, the starting lineup should be 5 out.
Interesting to read about DDV apparently not being happy with taking a smaller role, which, honestly, after the season he had, is understandable.
But I think we all assumed that adding Mikal would create even more of the Nova Knicks vibes and that would potentially alienate teammates not in that club. But we never considered the opposite, which is what could happen to the locker room if there was a fracture in that group.
I’m sure DDV would have fallen into line but I do kind of see why Leon was willing to include him once we got Mikal. And I think it’s smart if he was going to break up any of the NOVA Knicks to do that NOW as opposed to once the season started.
The reports are about the Pels having interest in Mitch, not in them offering us Murphy for Mitch. That would be an insane decision for NOLA to make. Macri joked that that if this somehow happened, he would get his vasectomy reversed, have another kid, and name him or her Trey Murphy Macri, or something like that.
Plus, the salaries don’t work. About the only simple trade the Pels could make is Herb Jones for Mitch, and they’re sure not doing that, either.
Again, starting Precious is more about Hart being able to bolster the bench than it is about Precious being a better fit in the starting line up.
Hart would play more minutes and usually close the close games.
I don’t really see the benefit in handicapping the starting lineup so Hart can play 30+ minutes “off the bench.” We’ll almost certainly have to stagger the starting lineup to not get blown out in the bench minutes anyway, Hart isn’t going to rescue a “bench unit” composed of some combination of him, Deuce, Payne, Kolek, Shamet, and Sims.
The hockey switch days are over, we’ve consolidated our talent at the top and we should push that advantage.
Hart needs to be the 6th man in a way that’s more than nominal, i.e. we need to find a player who actually deserves to start in front of him. We’re not beating the Celtics with the Josh Hart problem on offense and the KAT problem on defense. That team is ruthless and will drive a tank through those holes.
Yep
Josh Hart could win the 2025 Finals MVP and Hubert will still be complaining about him.
Is there a Mitch for Ingram trade anyone could get behind? Hard to make the salaries work…a lot more sign and trades necessary… Just curious. Probably not a good idea even if it weren’t difficult financially.
LOL, best comment of the thread so far.
I do think it’s quite possible he shoots better from 3 this year. He did in the playoffs and if he does start with Brunson, KAT, OG and Mikal, he’ll get plenty of looks.
But also, 5 out is not a necessity! 4 out with another dude who is pretty good at all the other stuff except 3’s is damn good. Especially if one of your 4 out is the center.
It’s impossible, Rama. Ingram makes around $20 million more than Mitch. Even if we were to send both Mitch and Josh Hart to NOLA — which creates more problems than it solves — it still wouldn’t be enough outgoing salary on our part, given the apron rules.
RIP Dikembe Mutombo, a great basketball player and an even greater human being! 😢🙏
Rumors are out there that at least two teams are interested in Mitch: the Pelicans, who are trying to put together a Trey Murphy-centered package, and the Lakers, who are offering Christian Wood and Gabe Vincent.
The Pelicans would have to throw in salary filler to make that work, as Murphy makes a lot less than Mitch. I got Murphy + Jordan Hawkins + Jeremiah Robinson-Earl to work in the trade machine, and I’d gladly take that offer. I couldn’t get anything involving Yves Missi to work. Trey Murphy can play. If there would be a way to get that guy PLUS another decent young player for Mitch, sign me up for that yesterday.
Gabe Vincent aggressively stinks, but Christian Wood is an intriguing option. Wood had an off year with the Lakers last year but we all know his skill set. As a reserve stretch big he’d be a good fit here. I could not get this one to work in the trade machine though.
Noting that teams elect not to guard Josh Hart is not complaining about him. I will stop noting it if they stop doing it.
The Trey Murphy stuff is just so silly. But hey, it’d be cool if it happened I love me some Trey Murphy (as does pretty much everyone else, I know, but still)!
The Lakers rumored offer is not good, so it makes a lot more sense.
Thanks, Al. Yeah, I couldn’t think of enough salary to throw in, which is a weird problem but one you have with too many good players and filler.
I’d do the Murphy trade, based on the idea that if we are so eager to trade Mitch we must not be confident he’ll be available much. Sims is nowhere near Mitch, but if you’re talking backup, maybe decent enough. The decline at the 5 might be worth the upgrade at the 3.
Point is, I like having Mitch at the 5 for the playoffs, even if just as a reserve. He is really good when healthy, people. But… He isn’t healthy nearly enough, and Murphy is very good.
The beauty of KAT is I think the Josh Hart problem on offense basically no longer exists. It was definitely a problem when he was forced to play alongside at least one non-shooter in Mitch/iHart, and often another subpar shooter in Randle (not to mention RJ back in the day).
Now we can flank him with four guys defenses have to treat like 5 alarm fires from 3. Like I said earlier, he’ll be sagged off, but not because that’s ideal. It’s just your only move left when staring down Brunson, OG, Mikal, and KAT.
“Starting Precious alongside KAT pretty much defeats the purpose of acquiring KAT. Even if your center can shoot, it’s not “5 out” if there’s a total non-shooter in the lineup. Teams can just throw their center on Precious, ignore him from the arc, and lose nothing in terms of rim protection.”
First, if the only reason for acquiring KAT was to run a 5-out offense, it was a horribly dumb trade. KAT is one of the most versatile offensive C’s in the NBA. It is equally shortsighted to suggest that the only way to win a championship in the NBA is to start a 5-out lineup.
You actually made the argument for me. By putting the opposing C on Precious, he’s not guarding KAT and you can just send KAT down into the post or run PnR’s with him all day. If you have Hart out there, KAT is going to be guarded by opposing C’s. That’s especially true if the 5th guy in your 5-out scheme is relatively easy to sag off, as Hart is.
I don’t think we are so far removed from the Warriors teams that brought Iggy off the bench even though he was clearly in their top-5 best players and played the 5th most minutes. Manu Ginobili might have been the third best player on the Spurs and he came off the bench in most of their best runs during his career. Not to mention countless other championship teams that brought a clearly top-5 player off the bench. This notion of this “handicapping” the starting lineup in a way that is detrimental to the teams ability to win games defies a bunch of historical precedent.
The Knicks are 3rd in Vegas odds for a chip. What the fuck is happening?
Brunson, OG, Bridges, Hart, Towns might be the most fun starting lineup in 30 years. They are going to light up the scoreboard… on both ends.
Wow. Braves bullpen imploding!
OMG!
These just aren’t remotely analogous situations. Starting Barnes over Iguodala was, of course, a decision made to…maximize shooting, just as starting Hart over Precious will be. Iguodala was also 31 and played less than Barnes in general for that reason.
Manu was a usage monster off the bench for the Spurs, a bona fide second-unit anchor. He could make bench units passable all by himself. That is not a good role for Josh Hart and his 14.3% career usage rate. Again, is the idea that he’s going to anchor “bench units?” Deuce-Shamet-Hart-McCullar-Sims, or something?
We’re just obviously not going to use our bench that way anymore. We don’t need to talk about this much further because I’m like 90% sure Hart will start for all the obvious reasons, and a good amount of that remaining 10% comes from the Deuce, not Precious, possibility.
If a team has a center that’s better suited to guarding KAT, they’re not going to stick him on Precious just because we want them to. In fact, whoever is tasked with “guarding” Precious will be able to help on KAT in a major way. There’s just no offensive benefit to flanking KAT with someone you can largely ignore.
I didn’t say it was, but the lineup with Hart is just better, period. It is clearly better offensively and there are so few classic power forwards Hart can’t guard that Precious can (when we play the odd one we are of course free to make the substitution quickly).
Again, what is the “bench unit” for which we’re saving Hart?
I’d say it largely no longer exists. These kinds of things tend to manifest only when you get deep in the playoffs bc only ruthlessly efficient teams like the Celtics and Thunder can take advantage of it.
It’s like the Celtics’ old Marcus Smart problem. That guy was their heart & soul, made huge plays, hit huge shots. He was even DPOY once. He was never a problem in the regular season or early playoffs. But there was always a point deep in the playoffs where having him on the court killed them.
“Who’s Karl?”
Sounds like a good thread header once the trade is finalized LOL
Hard to believe Leon put the wine, meat, potatoes and desert together so fast. Needs to finish strong and get us some decent cognac & cigars now.
Hubert, are you saying that the reason Celtics lost to Warriors was Marcus Smart? – You’re over thinking Josh Hart brother.
And Edwin Choke Diaz promptly implodes.
I mean, if you want to play a REAL five-out lineup at certain points of the game, you can do that easily. Brunson-McBride-Bridges-OG-Towns. If you really need to upgrade that Hart shooting to McBride’s shooting in certain situations, that solution is there.
If you want to play big, and play Achiuwa at the 4, that option is there as well.
If you’d rather have Hart’s rebounding and defense, you have that as well. You won’t be QUITE as good a five-out offense, but you make up for it with defense and rebounding. Over his career, Hart has a 95 3PT+, not horrendous for the fifth best perimeter shooter who happens to be on the floor.
I think the best thing Hart brings to this lineup is transition scoring, which is a very important thing when we’re projected to have a very good defense.
We now have two elite scorers, plus Bridges who’s above average and should be even better with less responsibility, plus a knockdown shooter in OG… I genuinely believe any piece can work with those 4, Hart, Precious, Deuce or Mitch. The lineup with Hart will definitely be Thibs go to to end games, and then everyone else will get their chances, it’s a long season.
Diaz giving up a key hit to Jarred Kelenic has a certain kind of poetry to it
A hit that shouldn’t have been a hit. He failed to cover first. His problems have always been between his ears.
One final trade I might consider is Josh Hart for Aaron Gordon, who the Nuggets don’t want to pay.
Hart’s actually a better shooter but Gordon is better overall offensive player and the defense he brings at his height I think would finish the job here.
OMG. What a game!
Lindor!
this mets game is drunk
Brunson seems a bit sad about the trade. 🙁
https://x.com/sny_knicks/status/1840768660094259659
Please tell me they’re not going to send Diaz back out there to get his brains kicked in
Craziest meaningful Met game in memory.
I’d be sad too if they traded my friend.
Mendoza does not have great options here.
They did send him back out there, but he’ll be gassed for the next two days.
Wow. Mets clinch!
Holy hell. I had to turn it off and get the updates on my phone
I’m a Yankees fan, but that was awesome. LFGM!
Same. I’m always happy to root against the braves though.
Sucks Ohtani is in the NL now or else Lindor would win MVP. That was a season saving Homer.
I’m a Yankees fan but I’d rather watch the Mets win than the Braves, they’re still newyorkers after all… 🙂
And the game was a crazy blast!
Good week for three NY teams who don’t play football. Edit: four forgot about NY Liberty.
Mets could really put the hurt on Atlanta by taking game 2. I wonder how motivated they will be to do that?
I kind of assumed that the Knicks FO ran this trade by Brunson, a man who just recently saved them over $100 million. That video does not make it seem to be the case, though…….which would make me very sad.
The Diamondbacks hope the Mets don’t give up after Game 1
I’ve realized after seeing how excited Mets fans are about sneaking into the playoffs as a 5th/6th Wild Card that I’ve become way too cynical about the Yankees.
This was probably one of the least satisfying AL East division winning seasons ever despite “only” winning 94 games and having the best record in the AL. I’ve gotten much more satisfaction watching the Knicks past 2 seasons which shouldn’t be the case considering I have the pleasure of rooting for arguably the greatest RH hitter in baseball history who plays on a pretty damn good team.
Fuck it I’m gonna try to enjoy this October regardless of the outcome! But I’d be pretty annoyed if they don’t make the World Series against this weak AL…
A shame McCullar Jr is so injury-prone. He’d be awfully handy as a 9th or 10th man at the moment, given his college experience and our particular emergency needs.
Totally insane game, wish I could’ve watched live but congrats to the Mets fans among us. I know y’all don’t wish anything nice upon the Yankees, but the hard feelings aren’t mutual.
Yeah, the Towns trade was really about optionality. We can throw out a ton of different looks that don’t make major sacrifices on either end. This here lineup has five god damn 38%+ 3PT shooters on high volume, and isn’t wildly exploitable defensively.
I think on opening night Brunson/The Wings/Hart/KAT is the most balanced lineup, but it’ll be interesting to see how we incorporate Mitch if/when he’s healthy. It’s hard to find options I don’t like.
We’re vulnerable to injuries, but that was the case before the trade too.
I just wanna throw in my two cents now. I’ve been a downer on the knicks pretty much since the Carmelo trade, but I think this will be the best team they’ve had since the 90s, and I don’t think it’ll be close. That 2013 team was smoke and mirrors mostly with a lot of one dimensional players doing more than they should have.
To me, The X factor, in terms of the legacy of this team is whether Thibodeau can control himself in terms of load management. The bench will definitely be thinner than in the past, so it’s gonna be harder for him to not run the team into the ground before the playoffs. If he treats towns and Brunson the way he treated deng and Noah, the only legacy he’ll solidify over the coming years is his own
What an exclamation point on an MVP-level season by Lindor. I was a wreck after Diaz blew that lead in the 8th, but that he was resilient enough to complete the game is worthy of kudos.
Just an amazing season by the Amazin’ Mets. Left for dead two months into the season, only to scratch and claw their way into the playoffs is really something fans can be proud of. Doesn’t seem like a championship-caliber team, but hey, you never know! You gotta be in it to win it! Or any other lotto expression you can think of!
I don’t think the Hart vs. Precious starting choice is all that big a deal. I hope Thibs experiments with both, but I agree that he will very likely go with Hart. Ultimately, the difference is probably marginal in either direction.
I also don’t think this is a finished product, meaning that there will be another significant move between now and the trade deadline.
That is some legendary shit from Lindor. Love it.
No one else saddened or concerned by the fact that Jalen didn’t seem to have been consulted on the trade of his friend ahead of time? “He was a groomsman in my wedding. That tells you everything you need to know.”
I love Jalen Brunson to death but he’s not LeBron James and it’s not like he signed for chump change or that there wasn’t risk involved in foregoing a bigger extension next year. If anything, I’d be disappointed if Leon consulted with Brunson beyond a simple heads up. Brunson should assume that Leon considered his likely feelings before making the trade, and would have kept DDV if the trade was possible without including him. It’s a business, not a fraternity. And I think Brunson understands that and will get over it pretty quickly, especially because it’s not like DDV landed in basketball hell like Detroit or Washington. The Wolves should be really good next year and he should be a big part of that!
And remember, Randle did exactly the same thing that Brunson did after an all-NBA season at an even younger age. No one gave him any grace for that.
PS I wouldn’t be surprised if DDV winds up back here in a couple of years.
Not a single iota… “This is the business which we have chosen”… something, something….
Did he get hurt again or do you just mean in general?
I just mean in general. He couldn’t play in summer league.
Bobby Marks said today that on paper, the Knicks might have the best starting lineup in the NBA.
No, but I am saying the reason they finally won a championship is because they traded him & Williams for Porzingis & Jrue. I don’t think anyone would doubt that.
In fact, realizing the Hart trade possibilities has made me feel much, much better about the Towns trade. I don’t love it as a final move bc I don’t like Towns as the only big on D or OG banging with PFs all year.
But I love it as a penultimate move. The final move is going to be trading Hart or Mitch for the versatile big like Gordon that completes this team. And now th
The Mets lose the final game, getting the #6 seed instead of #5, but end up with the more favorable matchup. San Diego is the one team nobody wants to face.
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PETE ROSE DEAD AT 83 BROUGHT TO YOU BY DRAFTKINGS
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I like that Hubert was actually cut off after suggesting trading for Gordon.
Is it possible that the Knicks move is to include Mitch ($14M) to Charlotte for Richards ($5M) in the KAT trade?
For the first time in decades he doesn’t mean toilet paper.
I was just reading in his obit that Dikembe’s wife was named Rose. I just checked to see if Rose’s wife was named Mutumbo. It was not.
Kris Kristofferson died today too.
So did the guy who played Marvin Dorfler.
Jimmy Carter is still alive.
And Pete Rose, RIP original mop-headed hustlebunny.
Seems likely that Donte had expressed both excitement about the season and some uneasiness about the demotion that didn’t come close to the level of an actual trade request. For the record, I wouldn’t blame him one iota if that were the case.
Water under the bridge now, and I’ll always root for the greatest one-year Knick of my lifetime when he’s not playing the Knicks.
A lot of pro athletes make an enormous amount of money (even a guy like Donte, who is underpaid by NBA standards) but it is a very cold business
Yeah, the narrative that Donte is somehow happy to have been traded is horseshit.
Ray Knight’s game 7 homer. Reasonable men can disagree. ( call by Vin Scully)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH7iDL7f3-M