Knicks Morning News (2024.06.29)

If there is a way to overpay Kolek and package him in a trade with a future second to free up space for Hartenstein, I’d much rather do that than include Deuce.

I’m not a Katz & Shoot subscriber, Z-man, but apparently that’s close to the explanation that Fred espoused on the latest episode for how we can avoid the hard cap. Basically, we send out Jeffries, the $1.5 million we collected from all the maneuvering we did in the second round, and we sign one of the second rounders (I would guess McCuller or Hukporti) to a slightly above market contract, and trade him as part of that deal. And that would somehow work.

Again, this is all second-hand, and if anyone listened and has a more clear sense of what was said, that would explain why some of those trades the other night didn’t seem to make sense. We had to come out of the evening with the maximum cash allowed, plus a player we’d be okay giving away as part of this whole deal.

I think that’s a sound a strategy to avoid being hard capped, and kudos to Frank for bringing it up first.

So if everything goes right, our team will be like this:
Brunson + Mikal + OG + Randle + Hartenstein
Kolek + Deuce + DDV + Hart + Mitch

Given Frank’s idea or a Burks S&T, i think we’ll avoid the 1st apron a keep Deuce. That means the only question mark right now is if iHart will stay or not.

One more thing, the 10-man team i’ve just mentioned will cost 179.8M. The 2nd apron comes at 189.5M. This means we’ll probably have Hukporti replace Sims as the 3rd stringer C, to save some money. That’s 11 players. And then we can sign 2 ring-chasing vets (assuming the 10+ experience) for 3.5M each. That’s 13 players. For the 14th man, we’ll only have 1.5M left. We’ll probably only roster 14 players as it’s a Leon’s tradition, to be ready to make trades. This leaves Dadiet out. I know he wants to come but he can’t, because he makes more money as the 25th pick. He’ll have to stay in europe, at least this season.

Remove one of the vet minimums and add Dadiet. I think he’s coming over.

Can a team force a first rounder to be a draft and stash, or does he have to agree to it? Seems like it would be the latter…

Sounds like Dadiet is the exact opposite of Frederic Weis!

Again, this is all second-hand, and if anyone listened and has a more clear sense of what was said, that would explain why some of those trades the other night didn’t seem to make sense.

didn’t listen but this seems possible with the caveat that they couldn’t actually complete the trade until 30 days after after he signed. there is a also some chance that the nba would consider it circumvention as an artificially above market deal. seems unlikely, but you could at least imagine the nets not wanting to play ball for that reason.

zman he has to agree to it. if you don’t make an offer you lose him.

One more thing, the 10-man team i’ve just mentioned will cost 179.8M. The 2nd apron comes at 189.5M. This means we’ll probably have Hukporti replace Sims as the 3rd stringer C, to save some money. That’s 11 players. And then we can sign 2 ring-chasing vets (assuming the 10+ experience) for 3.5M each. That’s 13 players. For the 14th man, we’ll only have 1.5M left. We’ll probably only roster 14 players as it’s a Leon’s tradition, to be ready to make trades. This leaves Dadiet out. I know he wants to come but he can’t, because he makes more money as the 25th pick. He’ll have to stay in europe, at least this season.

Don’t vet mins only count as if they have 2yrs experience or has that changed?

I think we just move Dadiet & Sims in that scenario. We save Sims ~$650k guaranteed money and don’t have to figure out how to convince Dadiet to stay put when he clearly has no intention of doing so.

This also opens up a bit more spending for the taxpayer exception (or elsewhere) because we can keep one of our 2nds at the lower price point.

Yeah, maybe finding 2 good ring chasing vets is not easy, so bringing Dadiet will be what we do.
In that case, the 3rd stringers can be: 10+ vet (3.5M), Dadiet (2.7M), Hukporti (1.16M) and 2.3M for the 14th man.

Agreed, EB. I think bottom line we’ll have ways to keep Deuce if… pray to the Lord… iHart accepts our offer. And that is a very good 10-man rotation. Or 9-man, if Kolek isn’t ready yet. Then we’ll have Hukporti, one or two ring chasing vets, and a guy making a little more (assuming you’re right about vets counting as 2 year exp salary). This seems like a great team to me, and with depth.

From the last thread – Herb Jones on the open market right now would 1000% get the fun max just like OG did. That dude is amazing, almost 50/40/90 last year. Size-wise and “who-does-he-guard”-wise, Herb is more like Bridges than he is like OG –> in fact their measurements and defensive responsibilities are almost exactly the same: see here.

https://craftednba.com/players/comparison/herbert-jones-vs-mikal-bridges

whereas OG’s plot trends more towards guarding 3s and 4s rather than 1’s-3’s.

If Bridges can get back to his PHX role – where his usage was around mid-teens and TS low-mid 60s and his defense was better (presumably expending less energy on the offensive end), then do some creation with the second unit like 10 min/game — he is more valuable than Herb. But herb is absolutely amazing.

Re: the Nets trade and how we possibly get around the 1st apron hard cap — you have to think this was already agreed to in the deal. Meaning when the handshake deal was struck, it was the deal as reported (capping us at the 1st apron) or if iHart re-signs, then we do whatever strategy to make that work — and this is why nothing has been announced yet. I would never have said this about any previous Knicks FO, but these guys are too smart to be caught off guard like that. At least I hope that is true.

The other thing that I am hoping — that some of the noise out there about Hartenstein getting huge offers — is a little bit of PR on the part of Isaiah’s agent. Who knows what offers he will actually get, but it certainly makes his client look amazing if on 7/1 the story is that Isaiah prioritized winning and family stability over squeezing every last dollar out.

Another interesting thing – the team I’ve been most worried about poaching him is Orlando — and yet Bobby Marks’s piece about them in FA does not mention Isaiah – this is who he suggested for them:

Free agents who fit: Tyus Jones, Paul George, D’Angelo Russell, Klay Thompson, Buddy Hield, Gary Trent Jr., Haywood Highsmith, Naji Marshall, De’Anthony Melton, Dalano Banton, and Caleb Martin

Not sure if it is an unintended omission, but he is presumably dialed in…

The other thing that I am hoping — that some of the noise out there about Hartenstein getting huge offers — is a little bit of PR on the part of Isaiah’s agent.

But we were assured that this never happens …. Guess we have another “conspiracy theorist” on Knickerblogger.

Alan, what does the $1.5M in cash that we got in various trades have to do with anything related to avoiding being hard capped at the first apron?

I don’t recall anyone saying Hartenstein actually got a huge offer. I’ve just read press speculation about whether he will gat such an offer.

The other thing that I am hoping — that some of the noise out there about Hartenstein getting huge offers — is a little bit of PR on the part of Isaiah’s agent. Who knows what offers he will actually get, but it certainly makes his client look amazing if on 7/1 the story is that Isaiah prioritized winning and family stability over squeezing every last dollar out.

This is impossible, Frank. An agent has never done anything like this in the history of representation.

And today’s flame war has begun, we really have to think thoroughly about what we write or the usual suspects will use the opportunity to open fire.

I would never have said this about any previous Knicks FO, but these guys are too smart to be caught off guard like that.

I’m with you, Frank. I have so much confidence about this FO that i don’t even know the CBA as well as i knew when we here at KB were a lot better at it than the previous FOs.

The fact that a post by Frank has ignited a flame war says everything.

I’m with you, Frank. I have so much confidence about this FO that i don’t even know the CBA as well as i knew when we here at KB were a lot better at it than the previous FOs.

Come on, cyber. Steve Mills would have run rings around these guys (evidence that he did not appreciate the difference between a player and team option notwithstanding)

I don’t mean to go all Doogie on Bernie, but that was banter not a flame war.

The Ron Baker player option, in retrospect, was the nadir of Knicks fandom in the 21st century. It wasn’t the most damaging move the team made, but it was the one move that was most indicative of the hopelessness of the situation at that time.

We’ve come a long way from the dark depths of the Ron Baker player option.

I just think it’s very important to state that the IFC is play a Bakshi film on the big screen every Friday until mid August. Also it has The Cook The Thief and His Lover on the marquee and playing right now. Ah to be gay and me and in NY/Brooklyn. Nothing better.

“But we were assured that this never happens …. Guess we have another “conspiracy theorist” on Knickerblogger.”

“This is impossible, Frank. An agent has never done anything like this in the history of representation.”

If anyone argued that “this never happens” then I agree that they are dead wrong. Of course agents do that! So do GMs! That’s called negotiating!

But that wasn’t really the argument, was it? It was about a specific situation and whether there was any truth to a specific point that was being reported by specific NBA insiders.

Folks were refuting that the smoke from NBA insiders that multiple teams were willing to offer OG a max was not legit, and that the only reason those rumors were out there were because OG’s agents were planting them. By suggested that this was just OG’s reps stoking the market, it implies that had Leon only waited OG out, he likely could have signed him to a team-friendlier contract.

Is this a correct characterization? If not, spell it out and stop making up bullshit about being assured about stuff never, ever happening.

Alan, what does the $1.5M in cash that we got in various trades have to do with anything related to avoiding being hard capped at the first apron?

I don’t understand it, but I think you can send up to a certain amount of money in a trade to even things up, cap-wise. So we had to acquire that in other deals.

But we were assured that this never happens ….

An agent has never done anything like this in the history of representation.

I’m going to be at temperate as possible in explaining what seems obvious to me but perhaps is not to outsiders.

Agents try to create markets all the time. Saying there’s interest is a standard tactic that needs very little to back it up. A phone call where someone asks “would he consider OKC?” is interest. If in that conversation someone says “it would take a good bit more than the Knicks’ max to pry him away, are you still interested?” and the other person says, “we might be,” then that’s enough to create a perception of the market as being, say, $100 mil for 4 years.

Agents do not lie when they say they have received X offer. It is too easily verified, and that agent, if lying, would lose all credibility in future dealings. It is not a career-killer, but close. So if an agent says, “we had a max on the table, and possibly more than one,” it means that at least one exec said “we’d give him the max.” (Or, to avoid tampering, “we think a player like that should get the max and we’d be prepared to offer it.”) That is not creating a market; that is defining the market. It may seem like nuance to you, but to people in the business it means everything.

If anyone else has agented 8-figure deals on behalf of clients, I’d be glad to hear if they have a different perspective. Otherwise, I’ll continue to believe that decades of experience give me more insight than uninformed Internet scribes. I’m explaining how to parse what you hear as someone who has worked with the big agencies for many years, but if you prefer to create your own narrative, you do you, I guess.

I don’t understand it, but I think you can send up to a certain amount of money in a trade to even things up, cap-wise. So we had to acquire that in other deals.

you cannot. again didn’t listen but the only possible use i can imagine for cash here is an extra motivation for the nets to cooperate.

rama, but in this case, E and Hubert are correct to point out that had OG’s agent actually received an offer from another team, it would have been considered tampering.

However, insiders have sources and can mine legit intelligence about what FOs around the league are thinking. For example, it’s no secret that Philly would pay dearly to acquire Paul George.

Fred Katz did just that shortly before OG signed. Here’s what he reported”

Among the 16 front-office officials polled, responses sank as low as $30 million a year and rose to the five-year max, worth $245.3 million, which one respondent suggested.

The sweet spot was $35 million to $40 million a year. Nine of the 16 people polled submitted salaries in that range.

Other than one person, who replied with a three-year, $100 million deal, every participant said he would hand Anunoby either four or five years.

Four officials proposed contracts between $120 million and $135 million over four years. Another four said $140 million over four years. Two more said $150 million over four years and another two said $160 million over four years. One person said $172 million over four years.

His logic for such a seemingly obscure number?

He believed Anunoby should make a tad below the max, including a $42.3 million salary in 2024-25, and figured a $40 million starting wage with five percent annual raises was fair.

“But if I were negotiating from the Knicks’ perspective, I’d start him at $40 million and go five years, so $232 million,” he said.

Two other respondents suggested five-year contracts for Anunoby: One for $200 million and the other for the max.

In my opinion (and I think this is shared by a preponderance here) is that waiting for OG to actively solicit offers was not worth the risk, given the likelihood that there was at least one, and possibly multiple parties willing to pay more than we offered over 4 years. It’s important to point out that this is significantly below (I’m estimating $5-6M AAV below) what other teams could have offered him in 2024-25.

Mets’ playoff odds now at 47% on Fangraphs.

The Mets are the second best offensive team in the NL after the Dodgers. They’re third in runs per game, but they play in an extreme pitcher’s park while the Philly team that has scored more runs plays in a bandbox. The Mets are second in the NL with a 115 wRC+. Only the Dodgers have been better, and considering the Dodgers will now be without Mookie Betts and the Mets’ offense has taken off with the additions of Francisco Alvarez and Mark Vientos, you could easily see the Mets surpassing the Dodgers as the best offensive team in the league.

They went from everything going wrong to everything going right.

Lindor 120
Nimmo 134
Martinez 147
Alonso 128
Alvarez 163
Vientos 158
Bader 110

RF is a bit of a hole with Marte (116) hurt, but Tyrone Taylor (94) isn’t horrible. That leaves 2B as the only weak spot in what has become a shockingly deep and potent lineup.

The flip side of this is that the pitching has been poor, but with some luck the Mets will get Senga back soon, and will probably call up Christian Scott at some point, although his innings will probably be capped.

I think they should buy at the deadline. Another arm or two and this team is a contender. They can flat out hit.

you cannot. again didn’t listen but the only possible use i can imagine for cash here is an extra motivation for the nets to cooperate.

Yep. The idea is that since the Nets, all things being equal, would prefer a free 2RP that doesn’t unnecessarily make a little more than they have to, the cash smooths that over.

The frank Plan really is a win-win-win. The Knicks avoid the first-apron hard cap pretty painlessly, the Nets get a flyer they weren’t counting on, and a 2RP gets a little more money

So I wouldn’t be surprised if McCullar or Hukporti wind up on the Nets. Fine, protect Kolek at all costs.

Is this a correct characterization?

No.

If not, spell it out

1. I believe the story given to Windhorst after the signing has zero credibility. “I heard he maybe had multiple offers.” Come on. This is not journalism.

2. I believe CAA leveraged the reasonable fear of a max offer, not an actual firm max offer. And to that, Rama responded “that’s never ever happened in the history of agent negotiations”, a claim that is so ridiculous I graciously assumed he misunderstood me even after he mocked me for believing it.

3. I can get behind the idea that Philadelphia was willing to offer OG a max if they struck out on Paul George, but that would mean OG has nothing if PG goes to Philadelphia, ergo that is not a max offer.

A max offer means a team was willing to forego Paul George and the entire player market to offer OG 4/180 on minute 1 of free agency.

I believe all offers are on hold until Paul George makes up his mind, therefore there were no offers, only discussions.

All that being said, I believe it was incredibly wise for Leon to do the deal. It wasn’t worth the risk to haggle. That’s why I’ve repeatedly given him an A for the signing. We got taken to the woodshed, but it doesn’t really matter bc we have our team.

When you start talking about this contract being attractive to other teams in 2-3 years if we want to pivot, that’s where I disagree. We had to make this deal, but there’s likely no pivoting from it, especially with the trade kicker and the player option.

Or, to avoid tampering, “we think a player like that should get the max and we’d be prepared to offer it.”

Rama, I was on the sidelines during this debate as I couldn’t square the reportage with tampering. Thanks for this as if that was the convo,…interesting.

Honestly I don’t think taken to the woodshed means what you think it does. Cleaners maybe. Like I mean it when I say I want to be taken to the woodshed. I could use a good spanking.

Fucking sold out of scones today. That is some shit. Late mornings during Pride. Hedonism is so fucking hard.

@wojespn
ESPN Sources: Nine-time All-Star G Russell Westbrook is picking up his $4 million option and returning to the Los Angeles Clippers. Westbrook averaged 11.1 points, 5 rebounds and 4.5 assists a season ago.

I’ve negotiated dozens and dozens of law enforcement sanctions with elite lawyers, some over 9 figures. Including significant individual sanctions. Multiple decades of doing it.

There’s no merit to the assertion that if you say to your negotiating counterpart, “We’re not doing this for anything less than $9 million,” it means you won’t do it for $6 million. And if you wind up doing it for 6, your previous statement about no way you’re doing it for less than 9 has less than zero carryover effect if you see the lawyer again in another negotiation.

No one in the association negotiating game has an iota of interest in figuring out whether OG “really” had max offers, for the purpose of carrying forward some lingering resentment. It’s just the game.

Or, to avoid tampering, “we think a player like that should get the max and we’d be prepared to offer it.”

And my opinion is that teams probably said “we think a player like that should get the max,” but they stopped short of saying “and we’d be prepared to offer it” because Paul George and other really good options are available.

That would mean OG had “interest”, not “offers”, which means there was still a great deal of risk in his camp.

JK, I just had a conversation with a fellow Mets fan from LA. We laughed that I was at the Strawberry game on June 1 that had absolutely no juice and the team looked headed for a last-place finish. Even just a couple of weeks ago they were still several games under .500 and it seemed like a blip. Now things actually seem in line with hopes going into the season, especially the hitting.

It remains the case that the best evidence that he didn’t have max offers is that he signed for less than the max, the only caveat with that being the other teams could only sign him for four years. And even that caveat is sub-caveated by the fact that he could be signed and traded and gotten a five year max.

No one in the association negotiating game has an iota of interest in figuring out whether OG “really” had max offers.

E has lost the plot. Multiple actors do.

At this point in time, none do. It’s irrelevant and no one cares. The deal is done. The next deal beckons. Life moves on.

At this point in time, none do

Yeah, the agents and suitors for PG13 and Butler et al don’t care. Why would it be relevant?

I think it’s fair to say that Leon and Co. have fairly reliable sources inside the relevant franchises to determine how much each franchise was willing to offer.

They also knew how much they could afford to pay him while still bringing in the players they wanted/needed to this year.

After that it’s all academic and Dolan bucks.

We got taken to the woodshed, but it doesn’t really matter bc we have our team.

I understand what you are saying and have no issue with it, but I disagree with the above sentence.

All players have some theoretical intrinsic fair value. Experts will disagree a bit on what that number is, but in most cases there’s a fairly tight range either way.

People have been speculating on what OG was worth since before he was traded to NY. It was always a huge number with the max mentioned. If we are to believe the survey Fred Katz did, the salary we offered is somewhere in the middle of the range. That number plus a couple of million either way was probably already known by both parties when he was traded to NY.

You can personally argue we paid too much either because he’s often injured or you just think his impact is overrated, but we offered a fair market deal. We didn’t get taken to the woodshed.

It’s really something, Z-Man. Everybody is just mashing.

Alvarez and Vientos have been huge difference makers. Alvy was the #1 prospect in MLB at one time and has always hit, so his great play has not been all that surprising, but Vientos is truly a revelation. This offseason he focused on plate discipline and pitch recognition, and it is paying off, as his walk rate is up, K rate is down, and he is less focused on pulling everything. Vientos generates elite exit velo, so if his improved pitch recognition and approach is sustainable, he’s a crucial piece for them.

It’s also stunning how the culture has changed post-Grimace and Jorge Lopez glove toss. This went from typical LOLMets to “most fun team in MLB” in the blink of an eye. You have to give props to Mendoza for keeping the clubhouse together through all the chaos. Next year a ton of salary comes off the books. I am just stunned by all of this.

Honestly I don’t think taken to the woodshed means what you think it does. Cleaners maybe. Like I mean it when I say I want to be taken to the woodshed. I could use a good spanking.

It does, Clarence. For some reason, terms like “spanked”, “made you my daddy”, and “taken to the woodshed” are used to signify a comprehensive victory.

Plus I like feeding you double entendre.

you cannot. again didn’t listen but the only possible use i can imagine for cash here is an extra motivation for the nets to cooperate.

As Milo said you can’t use cash consideration for even things up in a transaction and they are meaningless for cap purposes (to send 1 M to a team doesn’t lower you cap).
They’re just grease to help business.

“All that being said, I believe it was incredibly wise for Leon to do the deal. It wasn’t worth the risk to haggle. That’s why I’ve repeatedly given him an A for the signing. We got taken to the woodshed, but it doesn’t really matter bc we have our team.”

This seems contradictory. How does making “an incredibly wise” decision square with “being taken to the woodshed?”

People have been speculating on what OG was worth since before he was traded to NY. It was always a huge number with the max was mentioned. If we are to believe the survey Fred Katz did, the salary we offered is somewhere in the middle of the range.

That was mostly speculation about what he would get, not what he was worth. And several of the people surveyed admitted they personally would offer much less.

Man, the avocado toast at K’Far is a straight up banger

Big picture:

1. They had a willing seller for OG in Masai, and still overpaid. By a lot.
2. They had a willing seller for DJM, and refrained, leaking some bizarre “chemistry” thing.
3. They again had a willing seller for DJM but instead of dealing with the willing seller, they chose to deal with a very reluctant seller of Mikal … and massively overpaid.
4. Remembering the in-out chart since the 2022 lottery, they’ve basically traded everything not nailed down, for OG and Mikal (*). Through 2031. Value in doesn’t really come close to matching value out.
5. They’re a very good team, but this is a highly risky path. There were better paths. Some have been sketched out here in real time. Other than in a Fox and Mulder sense, there’s no way to really seriously defend this as the best path, or to defend the in-out chart.

With that, summer league beckons.

(*) Plus the charred DET and WAS fugazis, which have meh value at best.

This seems contradictory. How does making “an incredibly wise” decision square with “being taken to the woodshed?”

If I sold you a $10 life preserver for $1 million, I took you to the woodshed. But if you were drowning, it was a wise decision on your part.

The disagreement is with the people who insist we paid a fair price for the preserver and should have no problem recouping the $1mm down the road on dry land.

ESPN Sources: Nine-time All-Star G Russell Westbrook is picking up his $4 million option and returning to the Los Angeles Clippers.

What? I thought he said yesterday that Westbrook was definitely playing somewhere else.

Can iHart sign a 2+2 deal for $72m with NY and have an option to opt out and get a big money 5 year deal at age 27 going into his prime like OG just did?

$33.7M in first 2 years + ~ $85M in next 2 years.

This has to at least be an option to consider. Team will win ~120 games over next two seasons, make deep playoff runs holding a top 3 defense in the league. Odds are overwhealming that he’ll get OG-ed in 24 months.

“There were better paths”

Got it. No matter what happens every one of your posts were spot on.

Vientos’ batspeed/power is something I wasn’t expecting. He’s hitting prodigious blasts to left and center, and has enough o power balls out to right. That he’s doing it while also hitting for average is, like, wtf?

Mendoza has gone from “what a mistake hire, the team is quitting on him” to “wow, he is making all the right moves and the team is responding!” I’m not 100% sold on him long term yet, but at the very least I want to give him a couple of years.

To me, the single biggest ingredient to the resurgence is JD Martinez. The guy just oozes professionalism and confidence, and I think his approach to at-bats has been contagious. It feels like he has become the team captain by example.

The rotation and bullpen are being held together by spit and polish, so it still feels like we’re a couple of bad losses away from another funk. Stearns has to make some moves if this run will flatten out at a plus level. But at least there is hope that this summer will have some juice!

Well we can quibble Hubert but I won’t. Quibbling is boring. If you think Leon got daddied in the contract negotiation good on you. I don’t think he did. I think the OG contract looks eminently reasonable considering the relative advantage each party brought to the table. Also I appreciate you feeding me… I’m pretty fucking obtuse sometimes.

Also you’re misusing taken to the woodshed. Malaprop? It’s cleaners.

EB, grade Mitch! Grade Mitch!

When, you know, he’s not injured…

Lol, well hard to remember that far back…

He’s probably an A defending the post, though Embiid started beating him in game 2. I don’t remember when Mitch got injured but he was still much better than iHart against him. Maybe it’s an incomplete.

He was fantastic playing drop early in the year and generally shutting business down near the rim, I’d give him an A in both.

I have no idea what grade he’d get switching or hedging vs the PnR but I suspect he’s not quick enough to do that anymore.

He’s not great at closing out shooters anymore, so that might be an F. It might be Thibs’s system though.

No one likes this current CBA deal…but we’ve had something like 6 different champions in last 6 years and like 90% of the league either was a top 4 seed or made a deep playoff run.

If this was the desired outcome – than CBA is actually brilliant. Dynasties have gone extict.

Got it. No matter what happens every one of your posts were spot on.

This is the long and short of it, and this is why he’s not going to make any kind of prediction about the team. I used to think he would only admit he may have been wrong about some stuff if the Knicks literally won the finals, but now I think he’d still just dig in. “Well, RJ Barrett was still way too high a price for OG Anunoby,” that kind of thing.

This is why there’s never a “and thus…” aspect to the bit. There’s never something like “Leon Rose overpaid for OG Anunoby, and thus the Knicks won’t make the Eastern Conference Finals.” He learned his lesson with the Reddish and Ntilikina flag plants–no more flag plants.

I was really looking forward to a flaming war today?!

@ShamsCharania
Just In: Los Angeles Lakers four-time champion LeBron James intends to opt out of his $51.4 million player option for next season, sources tell
@TheAthletic @Stadium. The expectation is James will return to the Lakers on a new deal.

Would be hilarious if the Lakers went out of their way to draft Bronny and then LeBron decided to go play for another team. Alas, no hilarity here.

Lebron should go to Philly if he’s a true winner.

The grades aren’t gospel, more to point out that defense is multifaceted and that there’s different levels of defenders. We can call both Booker and Randle scorers but I’d say one is a much better scorer than the other and we know this because we can look at the stats and see that Booker scores more points on much better efficiency. Plus they score them in very different ways.

Defense is like offense, two good defenders aren’t the same level of good and most likely have different skill sets. We just lazily describe them with adjectives like “good” or “switchable” without really being able to elaborate the way we can and do with offense.

So yeah, Hart and Donte are good defenders but they’re not elite OG-level defenders and people gloss over that distinction because it’s not easily quantifiable. Or between Mikal and OG who are both switchable but tend to switch between different sets of players, Mikal is best 1-3 and not as much 3-5 as OG does (not to say they’re incapable of going outside that range.

And then there’s guys like Jerami Grant who is very switchable even if I don’t think he’s particularly good defending any 1 position, but still useful for implementing certain schemes.

And thus they won’t be as good from 2025-32 as they would have been if they’d taken smarter paths.

In terms of the other issue, it’s not about relative defensive quality; what we need is some kind of sensible, well-reasoned way to quantify or at least estimate how much defense is needed to close how much gap in offense.

“If I sold you a $10 life preserver for $1 million, I took you to the woodshed. But if you were drowning, it was a wise decision on your part.”

So the real issue is that you don’t think OG is worth anywhere near the money he is getting paid. In other words, Katz’s research is totally bogus, being the average of the 16 folks he polled was in the $35-40M AAV range, and several thought higher than that. We are paying him $42M AAV. That’s $7M more than IQ is getting paid, and he was an RFA, meaning that Ujiri could have told IQ to test the market with zero risk of losing him. And I didn’t hear a single rumor about teams lining up to offer $40M AAV to IQ, so did Ujiri just get taken to the woodshed?

Seems like making am “incredibly wise decision” to slightly overpay a guy relative to a more risk-free situation, e.g. if OG was a RFA, doesn’t merit a “got his ass whupped” descriptor. Especially since your entire argument rests on an assumption that a better deal than what you think we should have paid him was likely not out there.

Or are you saying that it was incredibly wise because other teams were willing to get their asses whupped worse than the Knicks?

There’s a pretty significant offensive gap between OG and, let’s just say to pick a couple players at random — IQ and Toronto RJ. Presumably, the claim is that the defensive gap between them closes the offensive gap and more.

But there are even bigger offensive gaps with OG as you move up in offensive quality and production. Luka’s a terrible defender, but presumably OG’s excellent defense doesn’t close that offensive gap.

So then the question becomes how and why OG closes the gap with IQ and TOR RJ, but doesn’t with Luka. I mean, we all know that he doesn’t close the gap with Luka, but why not Luka and why the other two?

And then as you progress up the offensive “chart” from TORJ/IQ to Luka, at what point does OG not close the offensive gap and the better offensive guy becomes the better player? And why?

“That’s $7M more than IQ is getting paid, and he was an RFA, meaning that Ujiri could have told IQ to test the market with zero risk of losing him.”

IQ’s pre-prime and a significantly better offensive player than OG at a more on-ball position. He could wind up the better player.

I have to ride across fucking town to this other bakery because I didn’t get my scone. But I need it. So I’m gonna get it.

And thus they won’t be as good from 2025-32 as they would have been if they’d taken smarter paths.

This is E’s bullshit distilled in its purest form. No matter what the team does over the next EIGHT years, we would have been better off doing it E’s way.

His posts are automatic skips now. Worthless. Probably won’t respond to one again.

And several of the people surveyed admitted they personally would offer much less.

In any fair value estimate, there are going to be a few outliers.

We paid him a lot, but somewhere in the middle of the range.

It’s possible some people think we overpaid because of his BPM, WS48 and other similar metrics compared to superstars. But most of the real superstars are underpaid.

I also think those models don’t capture the value he adds on defense and with better spacing on top of the more obvious scoring efficiently on decent usage.

I’ve long argued that individual defense, the ability to switch, disrupt passing lanes, space the floor, be a willing and quick ball mover and other things I probably can’t even think of are underrated. When a player provides multiple underrated qualities, those all in one metrics can be fairly far off.

I think that’s true of OG and reflective in his career and recent on/off data. He looks way better on on/off data than other metrics. That kind of data is volatile year to year and can sometimes be explained with careful analysis of lineups, but in his case, I think he’s a legitimate significant positive on the court.

If you think that IQ might evolve and become a better player than OG, that’s perfectly fair. Same with “Toronto” RJ. So long as you admit that it is purely a speculative opinion.

RE Mets. Yes, this is quite a run by them, and it’ll be interesting to see where they are in two weeks or so. Hopefully they aren’t “peaking” right now with an eventual fall back into mediocrity.

I still very much worry about the pitching. Senga coming back will be nice, but any prospect like Scott who they bring up will be pushing or beyond innings limits well before October, and I really wonder how long Severino and Manaea can keep giving quality starts, esp. into September and, potentially, October. And, the bullpen looks like a lot of smoke and mirrors right now.

This is E’s bullshit distilled in its purest form. No matter what the team does over the next EIGHT years, we would have been better off doing it E’s way.

Not sure what the problem is. When they draft Obi over Hali, and we all say so the day after the draft, what’s our criteria and basis?

Because they now won’t be as good over the next several years than if they made our move, right?

There’s no difference between “they should have drafted Hali, not Obi” and “they shouldn’t have traded everything not nailed down through 2031 for OG and Mikal.”

So long as you admit that it is purely a speculative opinion.

Not really. It’s a future projection, but it has a lot of current evidence giving it prima facie validity and plausibility.

IQ is already better at wide swaths of important parts of the game and he’s not even in his prime.

And thus they won’t be as good from 2025-32 as they would have been if they’d taken smarter paths.

Ahahahahahahahahaha see? Yeah, skip.

I love IQ and still think there’s hope for RJ, but somewhere along the line management made the decision to accelerate the rebuild. The serious window was moved from 2-4 years from now to next year. Some of that may have been because Randle is not exactly a spring chicken even though he’s still in his peak years, but also because they added players like Brunson, J-Hart and DDV who are ready now. They just had to finish the rebuild and did so with OG and Bridges.

Now we sit and wait to see if they execute a plan for C that allows us to be in the top handful in the NBA with a serious shot to win it all next year.

Fuck this site. Until a certain someone is banned, I’m not longer posting here. Every thread is the same fucking bullshit.

“You know, I really think they should have drafted Hali instead of Obi.”

OK, smarty pants, give us your prediction for Hali’s TS%, points, and rebounds next year.”

No one does that. It makes no sense.

I’m now a lot more comfortable about the Knicks future than before, because if we somehow lose Leon, it’ll be easy. We just replace him with E and we’ll be even better. 🤭

In other words, Katz’s research is totally bogus, being the average of the 16 folks he polled was in the $35-40M AAV range, and several thought higher than that.

Of course it is not bogus. Katz researched what executives thought OG would get, and executives took his leverage into account when they answered.

The question now is “what would you be willing to give the Knicks for OG on the contract he negotiated?”

My guess is mostly bubkis.

“IQ is already better at wide swaths of important parts of the game and he’s not even in his prime.”

Allowing for positional differences, what exactly are those things? How does IQ’s skills measure up to other starting PG getting paid over $30M AAV?

I also recall that a couple of days ago, someone pointed out that IQ has been virtually unplayable in 13 playoff games, and comparing how you feel about him to how you ravaged DDV because of his playoff performances, when you insisted that he should be devalued because he played poorly in the games that really counted. Care to explain that inconsistency?

Also you’re misusing taken to the woodshed. Malaprop? It’s cleaners.

Cleaners implies theft or some sort of cheating.

Rose got spanked, fair and square. It’s woodshed.

You think people would be more excited here. Hard threads to read with some of the BS posting here. Hope you guys enjoy the off season

David Stearns deserves a heap of credit: Mendoza, DJ Martinez, Severino, Bader, Tyrone Taylor, Jose Iglesias, Manea, even Houser (as long relief). Though the Mets get no length from the starters, there is not one clunker in his off season signings.

“If I sold you a $10 life preserver for $1 million, I took you to the woodshed. But if you were drowning, it was a wise decision on your part.”

Look deeper Hubert. Your metaphor work is enticing but not as smart as you are.

Holy shit the green garlic escargot at laurel bakery is worth the ride across town.

This is why there’s never a “and thus…” aspect to the bit. There’s never something like “Leon Rose overpaid for OG Anunoby, and thus the Knicks won’t make the Eastern Conference Finals.

But isn’t this everyone? Always?

According to your logic, does everyone arguing w me right now about OG’s valuation owe me a falsifiable prediction?

Like, “this is a good deal, and thus we will recoup 3 unprotected first round picks if we ever decide to trade him.”

“The question now is “what would you be willing to give the Knicks for OG on the contract he negotiated?”

My guess is mostly bubkis.”

But does that actually matter? No, it doesn’t. It is a bullshit argument with zero relevance to the here and now. And it isn’t even necessarily true! You said yourself that if Philly can’t land PG13 or whoever, they would max OG.

The only things that matter are:
1) what is the minimum amount that OG could have been signed for?
2) what will he be worth if and when you actually do want to move him, which is not going to be any time soon?

Your’s is the same argument that was raised when Randle and RJ were extended. Those arguments did not age very well. Neither will this one.

By the time this team will consider moving him, he will probably not be getting paid even in the top 50 in the NBA. He will be no harder to move than stats disaster RJ was last year unless he is catastrophically injured. He’ll still be either a 30yo or under DPoY candidate or a 31yo expiring.

Allowing for positional differences, what exactly are those things?

Rather than repeat yesterday’s post in which all this was detailed, if someone doesn’t already know these things, easily available on public basketball websites, they really don’t have any basis to make a conclusion on the two players one way or another.

In terms of what swifty said, if the site is just going to turn into a non-stop Knicks fan site where we all just gush over everyone on the roster and fete the front office and the coach and everything for everything they say and do, I’m happy to have Mike K (or whomever) ban me. Not really interested, and not interested in ruining the fun.

You think people would be more excited here. Hard threads to read with some of the BS posting here. Hope you guys enjoy the off season

Knicks are going to contend for a championship: “OG Anunoby is worse than IQ!”

But does that actually matter? No, it doesn’t

Dude we were talking about how much flexibility the team has now. So yeah, it matters a lot. It’s like the whole point.

I think we could trade OG right now assuming some team had someone we wanted that fit better and they had a similar reason to move on from their player. I don’t think there’s anything about OG’s contract that makes it tough to move. If he gets hurt again next year and is out for awhile, maybe it’s a different story.

DPoY candidate

He’s received DPoY votes one year in his career. A tiny handful.

I think we could probably extract value with OG right now if we wanted to tear it down.

I think we could trade OG right now

easily

This has never been a nonstop gushing fan site and it isn’t now. People are just fed up with constant shitposting from an agenda-driven poster who quite frankly has no idea what the fuck he’s talking about like 80% of the time.

You said yourself that if Philly can’t land PG13 or whoever, they would max OG.

I said I could believe it was possible. I don’t think he was their 2nd or even 3rd choice.

But the good news is, we’ll find out, because according to Bernie Earnie no one will stop until we have the answer.

I think we could probably extract value with OG right now if we wanted to tear it down.

Right now the ink isn’t even dry. Who wants to trade a guy they just signed? We’re talking about down the line.

I don’t think there’s anything about OG’s contract that makes it tough to move.

You know he has a trade kicker, right?

You know what I’m excited about, guys? THE NEW YORK KNICKS. The New York Knicks look to be awesome this year with this lineup. That seems exciting!

We’re also talking about what the guy is worth to ascertain if we paid the right price. So what’s he worth. As a thought practice what would his contract be worth on the open market?

This has never been a nonstop gushing fan site and it isn’t now.

It’s exactly what it is. Which is why people are claiming with a straight face, for example, that agents don’t talk to the press to try to gin up a market for their client.

People literally can’t even bear the thought that a Knick didn’t actually have max offers, as the team claimed and can’t even let a pushback on the thought just sit and pass by.

A day before the Mikal trade, Hubert posted a hypo trade that was like 60% of the final purchase price and a bunch of people said no. Then the next day, they were all gaga. That kind of thing is pure gushing fansite.

They emptied the asset chest for two (very good) role players, which somewhat redundant skill sets who play essentially the same position There were better ways to use the assets. Either that thought can be maintained at the same time as fandom, or it can’t.

Woj: “Free agent F Royce O’Neale intends to sign a new four-year, $44 million deal to return to the Phoenix Suns, sources tell ESPN.”

Suns had no means to replace him, thanks to the second apron, so dude got paid.

You know what I’m excited about, guys? THE NEW YORK KNICKS. The New York Knicks look to be awesome this year with this lineup. That seems exciting!

That thought can co-exist with analysis.

In other words, Katz’s research is totally bogus,

That research is probably pretty useless. There’s no way he’s polling the GMs of 16 teams and those GMs are giving him well thought out honest answers. More likely he’s pestering his contacts for content and they foisted him onto their interns. They were all too busy trying to trade 2nd round draft picks to deal with that garbage.

how you ravaged DDV because of his playoff performances, when you insisted that he should be devalued because he played poorly in the games that really counted.

Yes, E, I thought the playoffs were a “whole different thing” or whatever you insisted upon to devalue our hustlebunnies and Randle. Therefore, IQ must be a terrible bet, right?

It can exist with analysis. But it has to be real analysis and discussion. Not whatever you keep spewing out.

Your’s is the same argument that was raised when Randle and RJ were extended. Those arguments did not age very well. Neither will this one.

I never made those arguments. In fact I was squarely on the other side of them, i.e. I believed both Randle and Barrett had value on their contracts.

A day before the Mikal trade, Hubert posted a hypo trade that was like 60% of the final purchase price and a bunch of people said no. Then the next day, they were all gaga. That kind of thing is pure fansite.

This didn’t happen. I re-posted the theoretical trade. It includes an additional first round pick as well as Deuce. That’s closer to 160% than 60%. Keep on keeping on though!

If OG has a back-of-the-basketball-card season next year, of course we could trade him for value. Teams were lining up to trade for him knowing a contract in this range was coming. Oh, sorry, I forgot he’s the one CAA client who signed up for the “spread wild falsehoods” package. In hindsight, I think D’Angelo Russell should’ve been willing to pay a higher premium for it. Seems to be worth it in the long run.

Anyway, people here will continue to express optimistic, pessimistic, and torn views about the Knicks. It’s the furthest place from a good-vibes-only echo chamber. But most of us will do so in a constructive way that doesn’t lend itself to insufferable victory laps no matter what happens.

I for one feel that some of my more cynical opinions about the Leon Rose administration have already been proved wrong. I think there’s an excellent chance we’re looking at back-to-back 50 win seasons, and while I’m not going to go back and find the specific language I used, I’m nearly certain that falsifies either specific or more broad predictions I made.

To which I say, fuck yeah! This isn’t hard to do, but there’s only one person here wholly unwilling to do it because it does kind of require one to let go of the idea that they are, by far, The Smartest Guy in the Room at all times. For that reason, I continue to think said person should be ignored until they say what specific outcomes would render them wrong. Because right now he’s just setting himself up to say whatever happens won’t be as good as what would’ve happened if Leon Rose listened to him and built the Frank Ntilikina-DeJounte Murray-RJ Barrett-Cam Reddish death star.

Inside of you are two Es

Lil’ Pennysays:
June 24, 2024 at 11:29
Mikal’s BKN usages are 30.3 and 24.3.

He’s not a “role player.”

They emptied the asset chest for two (very good) role players

It’s exactly what it is.

It’s been made worse.

People literally can’t even bear the thought that a Knick didn’t actually have max offers, as the team claimed

I don’t think the Knicks have ever even claimed OG had a max offer. I’m not even sure CAA has. I think it’s mostly just been a bunch of blowhards here claiming it, and the only “source” is Windhorst.

It’s exactly what it is. Which is why people are claiming with a straight face, for example, that agents don’t talk to the press to try to gin up a market for their client.

Because everybody knows the agent’s job is to use whatever leverage (real or imagined) to get the best price for his client.

You guys are assuming Leon is some wet behind the ears rube who has no understanding of the marketplace. As a major agent for decades I think it is fair to assume his understanding of player value is the thing he knows on an elite level.

After watching the first 30 or so games this past season he realized he had a roster that was marginally above .500. He had a RFA in IQ that he liked at under 25M/year, but didn’t like at a significantly higher price. He also knew (because he understood the marketplace) there would be bids for him by teams that regarded him more highly.

That’s when he sat down with Masai and worked out the OG deal.

He clearly thought OG was a great fit here and was correct. He valued OG much higher than IQ and RJ. He knew he was going to have to pay a market price for OG and that’s what he did.

I need someone to make an argument that any sports writer or member of this board has a better understanding of a player’s market that the guy who has been doing this at an elite level for decades.

He’s going to run the Detroit Pistons out there for the next five years and I couldn’t be happier about it.

Lill Penny annoys everyone here and ruins threads routinely. Please ban him already.

I the The E Rule is a better idea than a ban. No response to anything that doesn’t include an example of an outcome that would make him wrong.

It’s one thing to flood the board with cynicism for its own sake, no matter how far outside the mainstream the criticism is (the guy has regularly made references to this team, which might win 60 games, being ripe for a “teardown”) and no matter how obviously wrong it is on its face. I mean, annoying, but whatever.

But you don’t get to do that and claim to have never been wrong about anything because you refuse to say what would even make you wrong. That’s the shit that really rubs people the wrong way.

So yeah, The E Rules it is.

I appreciate having someone who doesn’t sound like 20 other posters. You guy’s collective obsession with E is much worse than E himself.

No response to anything that doesn’t include an example of an outcome that would make him wrong.

I asked you and you avoided it… does every single person arguing with me about OG’s value owe me a falsifiable prediction? I truly don’t get why this is exclusive to E.

I don’t remember being asked or avoiding anything but I do tune out of the more exhausting threads these days, but the falsifiable prediction is absolutely baked in on that one!

If OG’s contract becomes a hindrance to the Knicks in some way, the people in favor of it will be wrong. If it doesn’t, you will be wrong.

I think I have mind melded with strat…feels weird

“Dude we were talking about how much flexibility the team has now. So yeah, it matters a lot. It’s like the whole point.”

No, the point is to determine what the possibilities are in a given situation. When we traded IQ, RJ and a second for a soon-to-be UFA OG, it was (or should have been) assumed that there could be some inflation in his value between trade time and signing time.

And why did that inflation take place? Joe Biden’s fault?

No, it was because OG’s impact on winning became as clear as day once he was inserted into the starting lineup. And holy shit, what a great problem to have! He made such a fucking impact that he’s worth even more than folks thought! Isn’t that the best possible outcome?

Now, it’s totally fair to think that either he was a flash in the pan. or that he is so injury prone that his increase in value was a mirage. But the fact that he’s coveted enough to not want to risk losing him is a great problem to have!

The only question is whether he will stay reasonably healthy and keep that up. If he does, we will never have a problem trading him and getting something back. Scarcity is scarcity. There are but a handful of elite defensive wings who are floor-stretching, high-efficiency/medium usage off-the-ball scorers with some on-ball ability.

Hopefully we will have a similar problem with Mikal in two years, meaning that he plays so well that we’re happy that a) we gave up a boatload of picks for him and b) have first dibs on extending him on a near-max deal.

Look, the thing is that you guys fall for his awful baits and every thread devolves into the same shit every time, just with a different little all twist based on what has recently happened.

Like JK47 said, this has always been a place where most people where really critical of the team. It was that way when we had Melo and some decent teams, it was that way when we had Alexey Shved and Lance Thomas and all that trash. There were people gushing about those teams and thinking that we were so close to contending, and that was always promptly contested.

If you can’t see the difference between that, and a group of people who are now simply happy to finally have a competitive team with very good players that looks sustainable, and a front office who has definitely had more success than failures, then yeah, get the fuck out, we don’t need this.

If OG’s contract becomes a hindrance to the Knicks in some way, the people in favor of it will be wrong.

It’s hindering our ability to add depth and get under the hard cap right now. I didn’t expect you guys to be proven wrong this quickly.

Pure gushing fansite, thank god we have the guy who is almost always wrong here to hold us accountable:

Hubert IVsays:
June 25, 2024 at 22:47
NOW give OG whatever the fuck he wants!

That is just a massive, massive haul of draft picks we gave the Nets, with high potential to blow up in our faces down the road

I like him as a player, but when I think of an all in move I’m not thinking Mikal Bridges.

I would rather have IHart and picks than Mikal.

I’d like to say that I am ecstatic right not. But I just can’t wrap my head around the number of picks going out.

They really have to resign OG, this was a huge overpay for a guy who probably fits this team really well but isn’t even an all star caliber player

mikal is a fantastic fit but the price is shocking.

That’s way too many picks for Bridges. He’s a damn good player though, I’m happy with rolling it back with the rest of the crew now. DDV to the bench after that season feels wrong…

That’s a fuckload of picks. Damn.

does every single person arguing with me about OG’s value owe me a falsifiable prediction?

First of all, no one owes you anything. I’m really not much for college dorm room philosophy, but what is the hypothesis pertaining to OG that you want to falsify?

No, the point is to determine what the possibilities are in a given situation. When we traded IQ, RJ and a second for a soon-to-be UFA OG, it was (or should have been) assumed that there could be some inflation in his value between trade time and signing time.

Nah, man. You butted into the conversation and you don’t even know what it was about.

First of all, no one owes you anything.

I wouldn’t think so.

Hence my question: why does E owe everyone a falsifiable prediction whenever he speaks his mind?

DRed those are 8 different people’s quotes you seem to be all attributing to me.

I’ve (mostly) been lurking here since the Amare days and for whatever its worth E fucking sucks and ruins threads pretty much every day re-litigating the same shit over and over and over again. the only difference between him and bobneptune is bobneptune got hard for trump instead of djm

Here’s a better question: Why does only one poster invariably come to E’s defense whenever the entire rest of the blog (including folks he purportedly respects like JK, TNFH, and Bruno) sees right through E’s agenda-driven garbage?

The answer is simple. Birds of a feather….stick to dumb agendas together.

I don’t care about any falsifiable prediction. I just see a lot of face-saving bullshit coming from that particular poster, who is far more interested in promoting a rapidly crumbling narrative than in having an honest conversation. He started with the narrative that Rose and Thibs could only get to the mezzanine, and he’s committed to that narrative above all else, since that narrative is central to his “only smart guy in the room” shtick.

He basically said it today in explicit terms: no matter what happens over the next eight years, he’s right, and we could have done a lot better. No need to see how this plays out, Leon has already failed because reasons.

They’re just worthless contributions to the conversation. Less than worthless, actually. Actually detrimental to reasonable conversation.

“DRed those are 8 different people’s quotes you seem to be all attributing to me.”

Are you really that dense that you don’t get that DRed is refuting that this is is a nonstop gushing fanboy site?

I stand up for E for the same reason I stood up for Bob when you banned him: I like different voices and I think they should be allowed to speak whether I agree with them or not.

I feel pretty special riding my blue rubaix with orange pedals through Brooklyn knowing that the Knicks so good and that OG and Mikal are gonna be anchoring a wing defense next year that pairs with a thibs scheme. Like we could be seeing some shit that will define a generation or 2 of Knicks fans.

I appreciate having someone who doesn’t sound like 20 other posters. You guy’s collective obsession with E is much worse than E himself.

Less than a year ago Swifty, myself, and a small handful of others comprised the minority who held an optimistic opinion towards the Knicks.

Since that time, the Knicks have been pretty darn good and several prominent posters started to hold a more positive outlook towards the Knicks.

We all hold different opinions — I think we paid too much for Bridges — but opinions tend to converge when evidence points towards one take being correct, e.g., the Knicks being good. This is what should happen.

The only good thing about We Live in the shadows show v film was the addition of the energy vampire. Cannot do without.

I just see a lot of face-saving bullshit coming from that particular poster, who is far more interested in promoting a rapidly crumbling narrative than in having an honest conversation. He started with the narrative that Rose and Thibs could only get to the mezzanine, and he’s committed to that narrative above all else, since that narrative is central to his “only smart guy in the room” shtick.

He basically said it today in explicit terms: no matter what happens over the next eight years, he’s right, and we could have done a lot better. No need to see how this plays out, Leon has already failed because reasons.

He’s got a valid point, though: if we fail to bring Hartenstein back, we likely have a fatal flaw (Mitch’s health) that we can’t fix. He’s saying if we took a better path here, the path he’s been espousing, we wouldn’t be painted into this corner.

It’s not my favorite argument but I don’t understand the collective response.

Sure but if we bring Hartenstein back (which I don’t think we will) then there’s going to be some reason why that’s a shit move too. Then it’ll be “Hartenstein isn’t very good and is a tier 6G player” or some such.

Heads I win, tails you lose on every single issue.

“I stand up for E for the same reason I stood up for Bob when you banned him: I like different voices and I think they should be allowed to speak whether I agree with them or not.”

Well, I certainly didn’t ban him, nor do I recall ever advocating for his (or anyone else’s) banning, nor did I care very much one way or the other that he was banned, or that he returned. Same with you, E, djphan, or any other poster who I clearly don’t care much for. I haven’t even called for anyone to ignore E’s posting, as several folks are doing here!

It’s a diverse crowd here. Folks are generally pretty tolerant of diverse opinions. But when a broad swath on non-like-minded posters call out an individual, that individual should at least pay attention. It’s one thing to ruin a thread here or there. It’s another to just not give a shit what anyone else thinks 24-7-365, and to broad-brush the blog as fanboys.

Less than a year ago Swifty, myself, and a small handful of others comprised the minority who held an optimistic opinion towards the Knicks.

Yeah, I remember. You guys were arguing that RJ Barrett, Quentin Grimes, and Immanuel Quickley were gonna “internal improvement” the way to contention.

Poor Evan Fournier.

But when a broad swath on non-like-minded posters call out an individual, that individual should at least pay attention. It’s one thing to ruin a thread here or there. It’s another to just not give a shit what anyone else thinks 24-7-365.

You have a very special lack of self awareness

“Yeah, I remember. You guys were arguing that RJ Barrett, Quentin Grimes, and Immanuel Quickley were gonna “internal improvement” the way to contention.”

And as it turned out, they internal improvement-ed their way into being trade chips that got us to contention!

Anyone going to that David Morales warehouse party tonight?

Evan got 35 million to have great seats for NBA games and occassionaly suck at basketball for the last two years, I wish I could be so unfortunate.

Also, why does house of dragons hate its gay characters? – queerty

“You have a very special lack of self awareness”

If only I was self-aware enough to know the difference…

I have things to say about bobneptune and none of them can be said on here without a permanent ban. Fuck bobneptune until he’s dead. Fuck him and everything that he stands for. Honestly: fuck him.

At least E is just trying to be the captain of a non-existent debate team.

If we have to compare defending bobneptune to defending literally anyone else, it’s a losing argument Hubert.

There’s always been dissension on this board, hell, we’ve all butted heads for so many years over so many useless topics. There were people calling each other names and going nuts over Frank Ntilikina not that long ago.

To try to paint this as if there is a conforming discourse and that E (or fucking bobneptune of all fucking people) are somehow martyrs that are being unfairly silenced is absolutely, ridiculously stupid. You know better, you’ve been around here for ages.

The reason why no one bothers to disagree anymore like we used to is because every fucking thread I ever come in to here is E spewing the same bullshit and everybody discussing with him, it sucks the air out of every other possible disagreement.

And as it turned out, they internal improvement-ed their way into being trade chips that got us to contention!

Actually all three of them regressed into trade chips that yielded less than expected, but whatever.

There are a lot of opinions here that I would like to disagree with, or have civil conversations about, but why bother when it will be all drowned in a sea of “tentpole, mezzanine, overpay, Thibs bad” or whatever the bullshit du jour is?

The reason why no one bothers to disagree anymore

Bruno, you are most likely correct.. But it’s the Euros! Cyber? Max? Farfa? Sloveneknick? Englishknick? Owen? IHart? I iHart’s mom?

The reason why no one bothers to disagree anymore like we used to is because every fucking thread I ever come in to here is E spewing the same bullshit and everybody discussing with him, it sucks the air out of every other possible disagreement.

I just went back and read most of E’s posts and I honestly couldn’t find anything that was inflammatory or air sucking. In fact I think he made several cautionary points that are valid and added value to the discussion.

It’s the responses to E that kill the threads.

Like I thought this was a solid post:

https://knickerblogger.net/2024/06/29/knicks-morning-news-2024-06-29/#comment-914282

And the responses to it were vile, boring, and repetitive.

Yeah, I remember. You guys were arguing that RJ Barrett, Quentin Grimes, and Immanuel Quickley were gonna “internal improvement” the way to contention.

Not at all relevant to the point I was making. There’s no KB hivemind, we disagree all the time. Sometimes we agree on issues, especially after evidence confirms it, regardless of who is right or wrong.

It’s the responses to E that kill the threads.

Which is why “ignore E’s horseshit” is such a good idea. Gonna start right now. Will not engage again.

I miss the good old days when Ted Nelson and Ruru were the resident trolls.

still early pm im going through the thread – had to stop and laugh at this though:

The fact that a post by Frank has ignited a flame war says everything.

nice BE…

I just went back and read most of E’s posts and I honestly couldn’t find anything that was inflammatory or air sucking

Hubert, respect your posting, but come on….

I have things to say about bobneptune and none of them can be said on here without a permanent ban. Fuck bobneptune until he’s dead. Fuck him and everything that he stands for. Honestly: fuck him.

I’ll pass those adult sentiments along to him 🙂

Come on Hubert, months of discussion don’t get erased out of nowhere because one or two recent posts haven’t been inflammatory. Nobody answers exactly to what has been written on this one specific thread, we all answer and discuss knowing what the positions are and what the history of someone is.

I understand what you’re trying to say and I think it’s commendable to some extent, trying to make sure dissenting opinions don’t get silenced on a community is valid as a general idea. I just can’t agree that it applies on this case, or that any dissenting opinion is automatically valid (see neptune, bob) simply because it goes against a perceived majority.

hubert, you are the world’s sluttiest hero because you detest even the stench of pile-ons or cajoled conformity. e is like anthony randolph. he has all the tools. germs of genuine, heterodox basketball opinions. actual knicks fan. succinct, well capitalized sentences. but he never heeded wittgenstein’s warning in word school and so typically his rhetoric uses him.

There’s no merit to the assertion that if you say to your negotiating counterpart, “We’re not doing this for anything less than $9 million,” it means you won’t do it for $6 million. And if you wind up doing it for 6, your previous statement about no way you’re doing it for less than 9 has less than zero carryover effect if you see the lawyer again in another negotiation.

No one in the association negotiating game has an iota of interest in figuring out whether OG “really” had max offers, for the purpose of carrying forward some lingering resentment. It’s just the game.

i wanted badly to understand that, i’m kind of tired and high though – anyway if there’s a simpler version…i”ll re-read in a bit…

edit: and i just finished food (romaine, meatloaf, mashed potatoes, bread)…

dropped the boys off last night after a couple of weeks with them in the home, nerves are pretty bad, they’re young, but pretty well behaved…stopped by mom’s afterwards and had her drive us to go get food, poor 80 year old ma…it was just safer though you know…

thank god i am not working and trying to parent at the same time anymore…that was sooooo hard…

got my DV plates and a parks pass, gotta go use that pass now 🙂

Anyway, I’m excited about the on court product. I have my reservations about the price we paid for Mikal Bridges but he’s a good player, and could be great slotted next to better players.

The rookies, save Dadiet, seem very Leon era Knicksy — older, productive players who allegedly have little upside. Dadiet is absolutely the most intriguing to me.

Then we also have the Brock Aller show trying to make cap space appear from nowhere. It’s been fun speculating and seeing his plan unfold.

hubert, you are the world’s sluttiest hero because you detest even the stench of pile-ons or cajoled conformity. e is like anthony randolph. he has all the tools. germs of genuine, heterodox basketball opinions. actual knicks fan. succinct, well capitalized sentences. but he never heeded wittgenstein’s warning in word school and so typically his rhetoric uses him

I do hate a pile on.

But E’s posts, like them or not, at least are about basketball. And everyone else’s posts are about E.

before i forget:

E – not really involved in lawyer stuff, more about winning discussions, for financial gain…maybe, probably, perhaps good at it…noted 🙂

rama – i’m not sure i understand the emphasis/focus of the task, is it: wealth management
negotiations
admin and logistic support
setting up legal, additional medical, nutrition, living arrangements

is there any life coaching involved?

if i can ask – what are the approx. age ranges of your clients?

interesting stuff rama…

In order to change the subject:

Right now, this team stacks up really well in the East and overall. Depending on what the Sixers do, I see us as the #2 team in the East slightly behind Boston. The Pacers are obviously going to be good, and the Sixers will at least be pretty good, though not at our level if we are healthy.

But I think we stack up really well against the West, too. I definitely like our chances against Minnesota, OKC, and both LA teams. Denver and Dallas are the only teams that we could struggle against for different reasons.

I kind of see a top 5 (or 6 with Philly if they move the needle) of Boston, Denver, Dallas, OKC, and us. I would actually rank us tied for 3rd with Dallas rn, but that could change.

The rookies, save Dadiet, seem very Leon era Knicksy — older, productive players who allegedly have little upside. Dadiet is absolutely the most intriguing to me.

Dadiet is such an outlier to the types of guys we’ve drafted that I have to believe Walt Perrin or someone else in the scouting department more or less stood up on a table and shouted that Dadiet had the tools to be special enough that he’d be worth waiting on. Because it’s hard to imagine a circumstance where he’d be in the rotation a season from now, let alone this coming season. So that’s exciting?

I appreciate having someone who doesn’t sound like 20 other posters.

There’s a ton of contention on this site. The problem with Penny’s, and too often with yours is that it’s repetitive and boring.

@wojespn
BREAKING: Los Angeles Clippers star Paul George is declining his $48.7M option and entering free agency, sources tell ESPN. He’s planning to set meetings with cap space teams and the Clippers beginning Sunday night. An opt-in/trade scenario is now gone.

So at this point, he either stays in LA or goes to Philly, right?

Well him going to Philly for just cap space isn’t great for the Knicks

No response to anything

at school they taught/called it: silencing

i guess you could think of it as a tactic or technique…

i didn’t talk to this one person for well over a year, ’cause of something that happened…

we were in the same company, they arranged for us to be partners on a handball team (sore hands sore hands sore hands), we moved forward…

maybe not so surprising, more linked to the campus than anything, starting after freshman year, my next three years i had summer school, campus was much more quiet during the summers when most students are away, not so many people…time and space to explore…

edit: wow, just read how the term came to be: it was used against the first black students…that’s terrible…

I think PG signs the max with the Clippers. With their new arena and all, I find it hard to see him leaving. They will pay up.

Edit: I just saw that the Clippers can’t offer him a 5th year, just a no-trade clause, so I’m less certain that he’ll stay.

When do you think we’ll find out about I-Hart? Tomorrow at 6?

George really doesn’t want to go to Philly; he’s from LA and wants to stay on the west coast.

So at this point, he either stays in LA or goes to Philly, right?

Assuming he doesn’t want to go to Detroit I think Orlando could clear up the cap space pretty easily but that’s about it. Maybe OKC could like give the pistons some picks to eat Lu Dort’s deal

I suspect if iHart is leaving, we’ll know even before 6, 6 on the dot at the latest. If there’s a chance he’s staying, we might need to wait. So no news is potentially good news?

Knicks picked up Sims’ team option.

Jeffries’ option was declined and for some reason they offered a qualifying offer on Toppin who’s now a restricted FA.

I like Leon’s draft. Looking forward to summer league.

In terms of the “other thing,” a pro sports team dissipating significant assets over a two calendar year period is pretty much understood by one and all to be a leading indicator of a worse future than would otherwise occur. It’s pretty much axiomatic. Bizarre that a virtual tautology is getting this kind of push back.

This year’s Knicks will be a compelling team and a contender. Their June ’22 to June ’24 in-out chart sucks. Easy to hold both things in the head.

Re: Dadiet

He’s intriguing, a nice try with a projectable player in a coveted role.

One thing I noticed, and to me it’s a positive sign, he’s very young but already went to another country/league (suggesting ambition and adaptability) and on offense he held his own against much older players.
From what I watched/read defense is another matter, but we’re a defensive minded team so he should learn, right?

Re: Our spot in the totem pole.

I’m waiting for the center-position dust to settle, if we do well there we should be a very intriguing and competitive team next year, a tier below the Celtics and with hard competition* but a strong candidate for the ECF.

* Philly (especially if they get PG-13, but doesn’t he prefere the West Coast?), the young & hungry Pacers, maybe the Cavs with a coach, and let’s not sleep on the Bucks if healthy… and what will Riley do?

@wojespn
BREAKING: Los Angeles Clippers star Paul George is declining his $48.7M option and entering free agency, sources tell ESPN. He’s planning to set meetings with cap space teams and the Clippers beginning Sunday night. An opt-in/trade scenario is now gone.

So at this point, he either stays in LA or goes to Philly, right?

PG signing with PHL wouldn’t be the worst thing. Including Maxey’s cap hold according to Sportstrac Philly has about 58M in space. If they want to max PG at a first year 49M that doesn’t leave much to fill out the roster.

I’m almost more afraid of them signing 3-4 nice players like KCP to surround Embiid and Maxey.

Couldn’t Philly sign PG and then resign basically everyone they had last year minus Harris? That would be a good team.

In terms of the “other thing,” a pro sports team dissipating significant assets over a two calendar year period is pretty much understood by one and all to be a leading indicator of a worse future than would otherwise occur. It’s pretty much axiomatic. Bizarre that a virtual tautology is getting this kind of push back.

Axiomatic tautologies aside, it is also known as matching up with the team you have to beat in the conference to advance. Bridges and OG on defense will give the Knicks the best defensive match up vs Brown/Tatum in the league with out having to concoct exotic schemes which leave you vunerable elsewhere.

I’m guessing IHart must see the Knick’s likelihood of success with OG in the fold and Bridges on the roster better than it was a week ago. If that matters to him… who knows, but it can’t be a negative in I Hart’s eyes.

Jeffries’ option was declined and for some reason they offered a qualifying offer on Toppin who’s now a restricted FA.

I believe Jeffries ends up being more expensive due to his extra couple years in the league. Due to the cap crunch it makes sense to cut him. Obviously he’s replaceable.

I still like baby Obi as a potentially useful depth piece in the future if he learns to shoot. He hit an underwhelming 32.3% from deep but hit 78% of his fts and more than doubled his 3pa/40 from college. He can rebound and has the length/athleticism combo to defend well. Definitely worth a 2-way deal.

Embiid, George and Maxey is a scary a combination, but the chances one of either Embiid or George is out or at least less that 100% are pretty high. I guess we have some risk with OG, but when it’s two guys in their 30s with injury histories, it’s probably close to 50% one of them is out

I’ll be happy if we can bring back I-Hart and Mitch, but I still get the feeling something is brewing with Mitch and it could include Deuce.

We are very close to serious contention and imo these guy are too competent to go into the season without being solid at C.

I’m not worried about what Philly or the other teams in the East do, the Knicks are really fucking good.

Couldn’t Philly sign PG and then resign basically everyone they had last year minus Harris? That would be a good team.

Not a capologist, but I believe to open said cap space they have to renounce harris/batum/ et al and can then only resign them if the have a cap exception.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/philadelphia-76ers/cap/_/year/2024

Bridges and OG on defense will give the Knicks the best defensive match up vs Brown/Tatum in the league with out having to concoct exotic schemes which leave you vunerable elsewhere.

100%. Hope we see the matchup next spring. Would be fantastic stuff.

Knicks declined Precious’ QO. They must have a good plan for C, we just don’t know about it yet.

Not a capologist, but I believe to open said cap space they have to renounce harris/batum/ et al and can then only resign them if the have a cap exception.

Got it, thank you.

Fred Katz
@FredKatz
The Knicks did NOT extend the $6.3M qualifying offer to Precious Achiuwa, league sources said. Knicks have not ruled out bringing Achiuwa back, but if he picked up the QO, it would eat into their hard cap situation a lot.

Something god better happen at the C position.

Re: Our spot in the totem pole.

I’m waiting for the center-position dust to settle, if we do well there we should be a very intriguing and competitive team next year, a tier below the Celtics and with hard competition* but a strong candidate for the ECF.

Same. With Hartenstein back I think we’re in Tier 1 with Boston & Denver.

Without iHart, I fear the inevitable Mitch injury and our inability to address it will leave us heartbreakingly short.

Anybody who drives traffic away from a site and who refuses to desist even after being given multiple warnings should be banned. It’s why jon abbey was banned, it’s why BrunsonPeroneusLongus (née Bobby N) was banned, it’s why Paggliaci (née dog r) was banned. If E gets banned, yay. And if he returns under a different name and decides to contribute meaningfully, also yay.

I like Leon’s draft. Looking forward to summer league.

I did not, but there’s so much more at play that I can’t comprehend with the hard cap, the Brooklyn trade, the need to get money, etc.

In an ideal world, I wish we could have just taken Collier and Filipowksi and called it a day. I prefer the former to Kolek, and think the latter would have been a nice replacement for Obi.

I do really like Kolek, though.

Assuming he doesn’t want to go to Detroit I think Orlando could clear up the cap space pretty easily but that’s about it. Maybe OKC could like give the pistons some picks to eat Lu Dort’s deal

I’ve heard the Warriors are in play, though I don’t know how.

We can re-sign Achiuwa with the MLE if needed but would’ve been nice to have the option to re-sign him w/o using it up.

I don’t know if we can afford to lose Deuce with this many rookies on the team. If Kolek is a miss, then he’s almost a necessity.

The Magic would be pretty good with PG, but I don’t know why he would leave LA for Orlando of all places. Maybe he’s tired of waiting for Kawhi to be healthy?

I mean he probably wants to stay in LA but get them to give him a 4th year

I’m pretty sure iHart is gone. Assuming there is a team that needs a center and has the space to bid for him, they will bid at least as much as Claxton got which is more than we can pay. I think the Knicks suspect this and are now in a holding pattern until the shoe drops. That’s why Achiuwa is in limbo and the Nets trade is not yet consummated.

I’m pretty sure iHart is gone.

I think if it were certain, we’d have seen other moves. I think teams indicated they might offer but, unlike the OG situation, no one made a hard commitment. (Again, despite the rules, if y’all don’t think these things are pre-negotiated you’re nuts.) OG got his commitment because at least one team indicated that, “were a player like that available, he would be their top priority and they’d max him.” No qualifications. iHart probably has more like, “we think a player like that would be worth 4/100” (or maybe less, like 4/90), “but we need to see how a few things break first.” He’s waiting to see, and so are the Knicks.

I think the FO did an amazing job creating flexibility through the draft: they made more picks than they had going in, added some cash and future picks, and still came away with the backup point they coveted,a high upside pick in Pacome, and 2 picks they can use to create space for iHart if he decides to return. I can be critical of them for being too clever by half sometimes, but here their acumen helped put them in a position to roll with whatever punch comes their way.

I still think iHart will get at least 4/80. If that’s it, I bet he comes back. If it’s 4/90 or more, probably not – but my guess is that it’s 50/50 right now and no one knows, not even the execs who indicated they’d be open to making an offer.

The thing I’m wondering about is the 1+1 wink wink deal. That only works if Leon is comfortable with 4/100 for iHart, and I’m not sure he is – they know a lot about his Achilles, and they may be hoping they don’t have to play the 1+1 game to keep him because they feel that 25 for 4 when he might be out for one of those 4 years is too risky.

Or separately he may be thinking about Julius, Jalen, and Mikal’s extensions and trying to figure out how they could all work. iHart is the most fungible of those players, and so, probably like the other interested execs, Leon is prioritizing other players before him.

One last thing: if anything makes it obvious OG had other better offers (at least one), it’s the trade kicker. This is not the bonehead group that gave THjr a year kicker (lol). It looks like OG really did leave money on the table to come back, but said “if I’m sacrificing to keep this team together for a shot at a title, then you need to make it worth it for me by making it hard to trade me despite my below-market deal.”

The timing of PG13 opting out is also an indicator. Philly has available cap room now.

Thanks Rama, interesting stuff on how things work behind the scenes.

If Patrick Williams is getting 4 years $90 million, then I fear we are screwed with iHart.

If Patrick Williams is getting 4 years $90 million, then I fear we are screwed with iHart.

It’s 5 years, not 4, the AAV is 18 just like our 4/72 for I-Hart
(I know I-Hart is better, but we’re a winning team, the Bulls not so much 😉 )

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