Knicks Morning News (2024.06.26)

Uh, I wasn’t expecting this kind of shock when I went to sleep… 😀

Lot of thoughts but a lot of loose ends still to be determined too, for instance I don’t think they like to be hardcapped at the 1st apron.

After an earthquake like this the next moves (OG’s new contract, I-Hart and the centers situation, tonight’s draft) will be huge.

The high-end of the spectrum are a ticker tape parade into Canyon Of Heroes and years of contender status, the low-end are a mortgaged future and a locker room in turmoil (as an aside, I hate cliques
) and there are a lot of scenarios in between.

Leon shocked everyone with another “impossible” move, with a not-so-little help from Bridges himself (Mr. Silver must be happy, players can tamper in clear sight, like in a podcast, teams can’t).

Yes, when you add the “potential consequences” to the picks the price could be huge*, but the basketball fit is undeniable** and that’s the kind of move you have to make sooner or later when you think you’re one step away from the top***.

At the end of the day we’re a mafia family, Leon is the Godfather and Brock Capmaster Aller is the best “consigliere” since Tom Hagen, we get and keep the players we want and we get rid of the others, now with everything this move set in motion they’ve basically put their job on the line.

I’m definitively rooting for them and I think opposing FOs are more worried today than yesterday.

More rational (??) thoughts in a week or so, when the marbles should stop rolling…

Let’s Go Knicks!

* To be honest our 2029 and 2031 are the only picks I could be a little worried about, I doubt 2025 and 2027 would be in the lottery.

** If we re-sign OG like I think we will. Boston’s Jays beware!

*** I’m okay with the “fit over stardom” path. Joker, Giannis, Luka, SGA and maybe Ant are the only superstars I’d go all-in and they’re not moving, at least not now.

For what’s worth (nothing) these are the grades the trade receives in some sports outlets:

ESPN (Pelton) B
CBS Sports (Quinn) B+
The Athletic (Harper) A

(Ported over):

I like Mikal a lot and will enjoy watching him as a Knickerbocker … but this really wasn’t a very good trade. No one being honest would say that they envisioned Leon’s asset horde going out for someone at Mikal’s level, as opposed to someone at the Tier 1/Very High Tier 2 level. It’s hard to believe they didn’t slap some protection on the outer years’ 1s, and draft picks are even more valuable in an aproned world.

It’s a huge overpay.

Kudos to Leon for seeing strategically that the time is now, but a C-minus/D-plus on tactical execution.

Nor do I like the thought/reasonable suspicion that the Nova cutesy “chemistry” thing was part of this.

Thibs hasn’t been extended yet ….

A lot depends on what else is happening this offseason, starting with whether we can massage things enough to avoid getting hard-capped at the first apron. While including Jeffries and Diakite in the trade would do the trick, Keith Smith said on Twitter last night that he’s pretty sure that the CBA says we can only include one, not both. But I can’t imagine a FO with Brock Aller in charge of cap/asset management would agree to a deal that would so immediately box us in like that.

Max, I agree that the main concern are those later picks, plus the unprotected pick swap in 2028. Those could really hurt us later, so you have to hope for a situation where the future uses can just murmur, “Yeah, well… banners hang forever.”

I haven’t listened to the Knicks Film School reaction yet. Someone mentioned last night that Jeremy Cohen is theorizing a Randle trade down the line to recoup some of the pick cost and make the salary structure more manageable. I’d like to see how the group looks with Mikal added to a healthy Randle and OG. But I suspect we have some more deals coming, one way or another.

E, I think your criticism of this trade is fair if looked at without context, and even in context it is a defensible POV. This isn’t the kind of trade that Brad made for Jrue or Porzingis. It is for sure an overpay.

Having to blow a boatload of draft capital on a non-top-10 player is kind of a side effect of the hybrid method. Even when skillfully executed, you kind of paint yourself into a corner and sort of have to do what the market allows you to do. In that sense, this was the least worst win-now move out there. I really like the comparison to the Gobert move, which I didn’t love in a vacuum.

In a larger sense, if the goal when Leon took over in March 2020 (and was logistically paralyzed by the pandemic until late 2020) was to build a legit contender core in 4 years, while putting a competitive product on the floor every year and re-branding the Knicks as a serious organization , there is absolutely no question that he has achieved that goal. And he did so even with several avoidable mistakes mixed in.

Nobody is going to hand this team a championship, they have their work cut out for them. But this is an incredibly exciting step. There is no doubt that this team is poised for a 5-year run of regular season dominance and deep playoff runs, again, barring bad luck.

It does feel like there’s a missing third team here, as none of it makes sense if we’re hard capped at the first apron. It could be something as simple as dumping Sims on someone, or maybe it’s the Mitch stuff, or maybe it’s something huge like trading Randle—the starting lineup with OG/Mikal/Randle is definitely a bit short on ball handling.

Will be hard to know exactly how to react until the dust settles, but the Knicks are probably literally as good as they’ve been in my lifetime without a rotation player in his 30s. That’s worth a lot.

Still wildly excited, but with a dash of concern over the details.

We may not have put Hartenstein in the trade directly but it seems like he is part of the cost.

And I agree with this cgreene post:

For some reason I’m very worried about the OG deal. Anyone else? Seems like he’s got his own agenda (not in a bad way) and might not want to be part of the Villanova thing.

I really wish we had signed OG first and then done this trade. The Knicks are a clique now and that might not be appealing to a free agent. OG also has pride/vanity/ego and may not appreciate that the spotlight just went to another guy who kinda does the same stuff as him. Hopefully the money with smooth all that over. One thing that may seem stupid but I bet is important: the Villanova Knicks need to be recruiting OG.

Withholding grade until the details are sorted out but assuming we re-sign OG and avoid a hard cap I’m leaning towards an A minus.

If we do not sign OG, though, the grade could be as low as F. This only works as the final piece trade.

This article seems to contradict what ptmilo said in the last thread.

@BobbyMarks42
Post New York/Brooklyn fallout:

– Because of the 7-year rule (can only trade picks between 7 drafts), this trade will happen post Draft. We are operating in the 2024-2030 window right now. New York is sending their 2031 first to Brooklyn.

– Because New York is taking back more money, they are now hard capped at the $178.7M first apron for 2024-25. Not including their 2 first rd. picks and 2 players on non-guaranteed deals (Diakite and Jeffries), New York is $48.7M below the first apron.

– Because this is the offseason, a team is not allowed to stack minimum contracts to send out in a trade, that is why NY is likely hard capped at the first apron.

– There are 8 players under contract (see below). That means including OG Anunoby, New York has to sign 6 players and fit $48.7M below the 1st apron.

This is extremely fluid and of course could change.

I’m leaning towards the idea of a third team being involved, even as a place to dump Sims’ contract. Again, however you feel about the team mortgaging its long-term future in this way, it would be wildly out of character for this FO to hamstring itself like this in the near-term. So there has to be more coming.

This article seems to contradict what ptmilo said in the last thread.

zman your emily post wondrium course is really paying dividends. that was a really nice way of call it trash (it’s wrong; you clearly can’t aggregate minimum salaries in the offseason to fix this problem, we need to do something else).

This article seems to contradict what ptmilo said in the last thread.

Then I won’t even click on it.

(Even though I am still reeling from that 13-15 roster spot mishap.)

Meanwhile the Nets applied for the right to change their team nickname to Brooklin Flaggs…

I really wish we had signed OG first and then done this trade. The Knicks are a clique now and that might not be appealing to a free agent. OG also has pride/vanity/ego and may not appreciate that the spotlight just went to another guy who kinda does the same stuff as him.

If you believe the Fischer report, this made the OG problem worse — both in terms of another mouth to feed on the court and the clique issue. Wouldn’t shock me at all if OG has mused about Mikal as a direct comp and thought or said out loud that if he ever got the ball like BKN gave Mikal the ball, he could do with the ball what Mikal did with the ball.

If they’re hard capped at $48.7M to go, that also complicates things — needless to say.

Again, however you feel about the team mortgaging its long-term future in this way, it would be wildly out of character for this FO to hamstring itself like this in the near-term.

This frankly has Dolan’s fingerprints all over it — out of patience with the asset hoarding, gets to take the best player from BKN — his “rival” — and so therefore has no problem with a big overpay.

(It also has whiffs of “up yours, OG, told you not to fuck with us” — but I’m not quite all the way there yet.)

Slept on it. Feels like way too much to me to give to the Nets and to give up. Hoping it’s an unfolding story.

I’m just going to continue assuming there’s forthcoming details. I’ll be flabbergasted if we’re hardcapped.

If we can’t find a 3rd team, I’d guess Deuce gets included.

Yeah I agree it’s a lot. If they were able to keep I-Hart I’d feel better, but given the cost, it feels like a small upgrade once you factor in the center loss.

But something still doesn’t make sense with the first apron hard cap so there must be something else in the works.

I’m with everyone else. If they lose OG and IHart mess up their cap and somehow don’t make another significant move this is a very bad deal. If they have it squared away on those details then I love it. Could be peaches, could be lunch meat…

If they’re hardcapped, they literally don’t have enough money left to sign both OG and iHart.

One thing that may seem stupid but I bet is important: the Villanova Knicks need to be recruiting OG.

Hard disagree. Having the 4 Nova guys recruit OG makes it even more obvious that the team is theirs. We’d be way better off if Brunson and Randle did the recruiting.

Vecenie & his streaming partner were live when the trade got announced. They’re utterly bewildered by the assets given for Mikal.

Vecenie has the same reaction as I did to the proposed trade yesterday, verbatim. It’s “insane”.

Around 56min:
https://www.youtube.com/live/nVJCqczBc-I?si=7jWNRZdKP-qr-5f5

I wonder if the I-Hart thing is posturing.

If they added Sims to the trade (that’s allowed isn’t it? Or is he a minimum salary?), or if they find a third team, wouldn’t they have enough to sign OG and offer I-Hart the early Bird max?

It seems this move was made possible because the Nyets had a deal in place to get one of their own picks back from Houston which made the tank more palatable. https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2024/6/25/24186220/brooklyn-nets-trade-phoenix-suns-draft-picks-houston-rockets

This also paves the way for Houston to trade for Durant as they can give Phoenix their picks back. Get ready to jump on the carousel…..

Also, I heard someone mention 2 days ago that early second round picks are increased in value as the team and give 3 year contracts to them so Bird rights can kick in and there was another cap implication I didn’t get. So the Nyets 2nd round pick in 2025 has some added value.

Hard disagree. Having the 4 Nova guys recruit OG makes it even more obvious that the team is theirs. We’d be way better off if Brunson and Randle did the recruiting.

Good point. But Brunson needs to recruit.

I’m guessing this deal would not have been done if Leon didn’t have all his ducks in a row or a viable plan B pertaining to OG and IHart.

So..after sleeping on the trade, here are my preliminary thoughts on what it means
1. The obvious- we are gonna field a VERY good squad next season
2. Mikal starts at the 2 and DiVincenzo becomes the bench scorer
3. OG comes back because we can and will pay him more. SHATT!
4. This is the big one. We kept both 1sts, so we now have to get cheap talent to develop. So, we probably let Hartenstein walk now if he gets that huge offer, and reinsert Mitch in the starting 5. And we probably should move Randle at some point because we are not gonna be able to extend him, OG, Mikal, and Brunson. All of that said, I’m looking at Filipowski and Holmes to groom as the Hartenstein and Randle replacements- even if Filipowski will never be the rebounder Hartenstein is. But that’s OK because we have Mitch and Sims. I’m also looking at Bronny in the second in a trade down. He’d be a good PG to develop along with Rokas coming over. We absolutely don’t need Ryan Dunn now. The draft is going to be interesting. I wonder if we use a first to unload a contract so we can afford to keep Hartenstein.

We most likely will have a defense led by Mitch, OG, and Bridges..with Deuce and Hart on the second unit around DiVincenzo’s offense. WOWSERS

Oh, Bogey, we hardly knew ye. Thank you for your 10.4 points per game in 19.2 minutes per game (.529 eFG%) for 29 games in the regular season. Thank you also for your 6.0 points per game in 12.7 minutes per game for 4 games in the playoffs.

Reminds me a little bit of when we had Wes Matthews for 2 games (started one) back in 2018-2019. Dude actually averaged 27.0 minutes per game for us and was then out the door. Amazingly, he’s still drawing an NBA paycheck 5 years later, having played 36 games for the Atlanta Hawks this past season. Life must be good.

Could this have happened in part because OG is making what Leon considers unrealistic demands?

Doesn’t Bridges soften the blow if OG walks? (And then we sign iHart.)

Basically, Bridges could be the consolation prize (for losing OG) instead of PG.

Just anxiety talking here.

In a Tolkien-esque world with elves, ents, hobbits, and Leon making 3 draft picks, I’m hoping for the following guys:
24) Scheierman
25) Holmes or Filipowski
38) Shead, KJ Simpson, or Dunn

We are not done. We don’t pay Brock Aller 7 figures to speculate on what to do next on knickerblogger and hope. Management understands the issues at C given Mitch’s health and I-Hart’s contract. There IS a plan to solidify the C position and it may happen tonight.

Doesn’t Bridges soften the blow if OG walks? (And then we sign iHart.)

That’s what I said last night. OG leaving pushes our hand more to make this trade because we don’t really have someone to replace him.

I never thought we could get Mikal, so kudos to Leon for getting it done. But in part he did it because this is a huge overpay.
So now the question is, will it be worth it or not? Right now i’m really torn, and i guess i’ll need to know how will we round out this trade to choose a side.
Can we re-sign OG? This one seems highly likely. And iHart? This looks unlikely. Will we trade Sims and a pick to avoid being hard capped or will we trade Mitch and a pick while getting a big back to better replicate iHart (maybe a s&t for JV w/ NOP)? Will we trade this year’s picks, or will we use the picks to have better end of bench options?
There’s a lot still to unfold, so i’ll wait before drawing conclusions. One thing is for sure, if we re-sign OG, which is the consensus right now, we’ll have a great team next season. That alone is a great feeling to have. The 90s are back, people. Let’s enjoy the ride!

Whether or not OG is going to leave is still up in the air, but what has unfolded is pretty much what would be unfolding if he was going to leave.

I’m beginning to think it is possible we elected the hard cap so we could keep Deuce and fill out the roster with the picks and vet mins.

EDIT: Actually I should just stop thinking about it until next week.

OG isn’t going anywhere. It would be one thing if the Knicks signed him as a free agent and were willing to roll the dice that he re-signs (a la Juan Soto), but they gave up 2 key rotation players to get him.

It would be a complete disaster if he bolted, Bridges or no Bridges, and Leon is not letting that happen

Basically, Bridges could be the consolation prize (for losing OG) instead of PG.

That makes zero sense. You don’t pay that price for Bridges if you aren’t a legit contender. Swapping IQ and RJ for Bridges would have been fine, but doing that swap less 5.5 first rounders would be awful.

Could this have happened in part because OG is making what Leon considers unrealistic demands?

Doesn’t Bridges soften the blow if OG walks? (And then we sign iHart.)

Well, if Rose makes a deal like this it better be because the team is going after a title. Without OG coming back , they would’ve given up Quickley for nothing who was a very solid asset at the time and they wouldn’t be a real contender.

I’m beginning to think it is quite possible we elected the hard cap so we could keep Deuce, use the taxpayer MLE, the 3 picks, and vet minimums to fill out the roster.

I’m not sure we’ll be able to use the taxpayer if we’re hardcapped. We’ll have the exception, but it’ll be useless if OG signs for his max and we don’t have space below the cap.

You don’t pay that price for Bridges if you aren’t a legit contender. Swapping IQ and RJ for Bridges would have been fine, but doing that swap less 5.5 first rounders would be awful.

Dolan.

That makes zero sense. You don’t pay that price for Bridges if you aren’t a legit contender.

You’re right, Bob.

I just don’t have your confidence that this is an airtight ship that makes no mistakes.

I think several WTF scenarios are loosely in play, and we are probably rolling the dice here, banking on being able to bring back OG because we can pay more than anyone.

Let’s also be honest in purely basketball terms — Mikal is way more a 3 than he is a 2. There’s redundancy there with OG. Arguably lots of it.

I think an underrated move so far was the hiring of Casey Smith, athletic trainer. It was clear last year wasn’t a good look for the Knicks medical staff so getting someone of his caliber could prove huge. And Thibs hasn’t been extended yet so my guess is the franchise wants to see how he manages the team now that expectations are sky high.

Still moves to be made I think.

I’m not sure we’ll be able to use the taxpayer if we’re hardcapped

Yeah, I edited that part. I still think it’s possible we accepted the hard cap, figuring Deuce, 3 picks, and a bunch of ring-chasing vets is enough depth beyond the awesome top 7.

Total and complete overpay for Bridges, but it is hard to argue about the fit. 27 year old 6’7″ dudes who can guard 3-4 positions, shoot 40% from 3 on high volume, and create/pass some are the hardest players to find in the NBA. My sense is this is around what it would’ve cost in treasure AND Randle to make the $ work to get PG or Durant, and with this we have him cost-controlled for the next 2 seasons and still have Randle.

I am very nervous about losing Hartenstein but maybe the intel is strong that he’s going to get more $ than he can pass up just to stay in NY, and so this is plan B.

Championship aspirations with just Mitch and Jericho Sims at center — seems risky. My feeling is there is a lot more to come both with this trade (are we going to be hard capped at one of the aprons?) and with the draft picks. I think we keep one pick and then trade the others somehow to decrease payroll (or I suppose a draft-and-stash).

Part of me is also a little sad that we probably are not going to see that January 2024 lineup that dominated the league. Either Donte will go to the bench or Hartenstein (or Randle) will be gone…

E, it’s also possible that a Randle deal is coming at some point, and that we’ll eventually have OG and Mikal as our forwards and DDV starting next to Brunson. There are a lot of financial balls in the air right now, starting with OG, but also in terms of Brunson’s willingness to sign an extension, and what Julius would be willing to accept from an extension.

But like I said last night, the version of the team that has Brunson and Julius and OG and Mikal in the starting lineup is going to be a goddamn bear for other teams to deal with, on one end or the other.

OG’s not a 4.

Yeah, I edited that part. I still think it’s possible we accepted the hard cap, figuring Deuce, 3 picks, and a bunch of ring-chasing vets is enough depth.

Yeah, I just really don’t like losing either OG or iHart. Too much on court value to lose on a team that suddenly needs to retain on court value at all costs

If iHart is gone anyway, then maybe… But we’d really need OG’s deal to leave us enough space for Bitadze, for Mitch to stay healthy, or for a rookie C to come up big.

I just don’t have your confidence that this is an airtight ship that makes no mistakes.

I think a lot of the WTF scenarios are legitimately in play.

I honestly don’t think so. (Not that what I think means anything 🙂

Everyone makes mistakes, but while Leon has done a fine overall job up to this point, he has excelled at two things: understanding player’s monetary value and not panicking. While he doesn’t speak to the media his contract law background has left him with a meticulous mindset.

I’d bet he is a germophobe and gets pissy like Dustin Hoffman in Rainman if anything is out of place.

Dolan or not, I don’t see him making this move if he doesn’t have all scenarios accounted for. That might mean moving OG in a sign and trade. Just pulling one out of my posterior, maybe Denver thinks they need better defense to win in the new West. Swap OG for Michael Porter?

I can’t believe OG is walking without reasonable compensation with his son as OG’s agent today.

interesting tidbit from Fred Katz – that perhaps Sims could be used as part of the trade to avoid hard capping us at the 1st apron since he is not technically on a minimum contract (ie. we could aggregate him with Bogdanovic and one of the minimums) thus taking less $ back than we are sending out.

Like Alan said – I cannot possibly imagine the Knicks and Brock Aller would hard cap themselves especially at the 1st apron unnecessarily. Second apron maybe, but definitely not 1st apron.

The Knicks are betting that Jalen can be a #1 option on a serious championship contender when surrounded by space and elite defense.

They are also betting that this team is going to give them at least a solid 5 year run where they are a high seed.

IMO, they are right unless we have terrible injury luck (which is true for every team). So most of the picks they gave up will not be of huge value and there’s even time to retool before that later ones.

When you want to win a championship sometimes you have to pay a big price for the final piece. That’s why they were rolling out picks. It may have upset the more draft oriented people here because we gave up 5 cents on the dollar on those trades, but it was the right thing to do.

Yesterday we had the draft capital to get this deal done and we still have some fist rounders left to continue on or potentially help facilitate another deal. Once we solidify C (and I feel certain there is a plan in place that accounts for OG too), we have a serious contender.

From there, the only thing left is perhaps adding a backup PG for when Jalen is hurt or just needs a game or two off. Maybe Rokas is that guy. I do not know.

One last thing on this. Bridges is on a very team friendly contract for now. That’s part of the price.

We traded 5 firsts for someone who is not even a top 50 player, this move by itself is a ludicrous overpay.

Scattered thoughts:

-This is unambiguously an overpay. I suppose you can get pedantic and say it’s definitionally not an overpay if it’s what the market dictated, but sometimes the market dictates overpays.

-Because of excellent asset management to this point, we were well-positioned to overpay for someone we deemed the final-ish piece to a contender. There’s still too much TBD for me to say if I think, personally, we achieved that, but I have a feeling when the season starts I will think we comfortably fit the definition.

-Relatedly, I would be absolutely shocked if we’re hard capped such that we can’t bring back OG. It seems easy enough to avoid and I think we’ll avoid it.

-If we lose OG this all kinda sucks and my excitement level for the team will be middling. I don’t see the point of arguing about various interpretations of the tea leaves. My guess is he’s back, but we’ll know for sure in, like, a week tops.

-I was really bummed about iHart last night and still am, but upon reflection think there’s 80/20 potential with Goga + a good draft pick. If we re-sign OG and shore up the center position satisfactorily…I mean, I wouldn’t rule out 60 god damn wins. Hard to quibble with any series of transactions that gets us to even a potential 60 win team.

-I think we’re left with slightly more draft capital than people realize. Probably not enough for another major trade, but something like one or more of Randle/Mikal/OG/Hart + the draft compensation we still can trade is a reasonably competitive offer for any given good player.

tl;dr: if we get OG back I’m fucking hyped even if we “lost” the trade. We’ll wipe the tears with the banner. If we lose OG, this is all, as in the series of transactions that led up to this, incredibly underwhelming.

We traded 5 firsts for someone who is not even a top 50 player, this move by itself is a ludicrous overpay.

Yeah, my thoughts as well. In recent days Mikal has been getting a lot of love on this blog, but it’s hard to justify meeting this price for a role player.

Lil’ Pennysays:
June 26, 2024 at 09:17

OG’s not a 4.

He has played 30% of his 12,000 NBA minutes as the 4 according to BBR as well as 55% of his minutes this season for us.

Good effort, strat — but the expectation was never that the hoarded draft assets were going to go out for a (somewhat redundant) Tier 4A guy. Say Mikal is really the Tier 3B he was after he lit it up in 1,000 BKN minutes in 2023 and that’s still the case.

That’s a goalpost move.

I posted earlier about the hard cap point and I now see that was wrong, as this trade is happening in the next league year not this. So clearly there’s another show to drop.

But can anyone confirm… can you exceed the first apron using bird rights? Surely you can as there’s no way the league would have invented a rule which prevented free agents staying with their teams?

So we could in theory still sign hart and OG, but we’d then basically be unable to add anyone else beyond the minimum or in trades?

interesting tidbit from Fred Katz – that perhaps Sims could be used as part of the trade to avoid hard capping us at the 1st apron since he is not technically on a minimum

I don’t know the language in the CBA but I believe Sims is on a minimum contract, he just wasn’t signed using the minimum exception.

I’m not sure what, if anything, this distinction means for trade aggregation purposes.

He has played 30% of his 12,000 NBA minutes as the 4 according to BBR as well as 55% of his minutes this season for us.

He can play the 4 in some lineups, but he’s not a starting 4. He’s redundant with Mikal at a non-insignificant level.

In the same way, Mikal isn’t really 2 although he can play the 2.

MIkal is definitely better than Bojan though, so that is something to consider.

I can’t believe OG is walking without reasonable compensation with his son as OG’s agent today.

Can we please stop with OG.

OG is coming back. He likes playing for the Knicks. We can give him the most money. He’s on a championship contender and his agent is connected to NY. He’s 99% coming back.

Right now we are working on plans A, B, C at the center position.

Which one of those gets executed depends what trades are available with other teams and the details of OG’s contract. The two are interrelated. If OG takes a little less we can do more if we also get cooperation from other parties. If OG insists on more or other parties don’t want to work with us, we shift to plan B etc…

OG better be coming back, or else we basically sent out 5 firsts, an unprotected swap, and Bogdanovic (who cost us Grimes), IQ, RJ, and the Detroit 2nd all in order to get a single 6’7″ wing archetype player.

I’m generally fine with the overpay, and like TNFH said — this is why you make all the little deals on the margins that feel insignificant in the moment but when all added up give you the ability to do this. In terms of total asset value, it’s probably about what we would’ve given for Donovan Mitchell, except for this team, Bridges fits 1000x better than Donovan would now that Jalen has hit his 100% ceiling outcome.

But can anyone confirm… can you exceed the first apron using bird rights? Surely you can as there’s no way the league would have invented a rule which prevented free agents staying with their teams?

Others can 100% confirm the hard cap detail, but the idea from the league’s perspective is that you can’t do a bunch of stuff like trade draft picks for a really good player, keep your Bird guys for last and then go over the hard cap just because you did it in that order.

We can only pay Hartenstein the Early Bird money no matter what, and somebody is probably going to offer him more than the Early Bird money. So that situation seems unrelated to the Mikal trade.

OG is coming back. He likes playing for the Knicks.

Again, good effort — but all the actual evidence is that he really didn’t like his experience here that much, or that it was just a neutral.

Then, after complaining about the Nova clique, the team went out and got another Nova guy who OG likely sees as a direct peer competitor if not doppelganger.

I obviously concur that money can offset that.

OG isn’t going anywhere. It would be one thing if the Knicks signed him as a free agent and were willing to roll the dice that he re-signs (a la Juan Soto), but they gave up 2 key rotation players to get him.

That’s kind of the inherent risk you take when you trade for a player in the last year of his contact whose insisted for several seasons he doesn’t want to sign an extension without testing free agency.

So that situation seems unrelated to the Mikal trade.

Unless they know they’re going to be hardcapped with only $48 million left to spend, and so informed the world that iHart was likely gone.

He’s redundant with Mikal at a non-insignificant level.

Mikal and OG are redundant in that they are both great defenders that can switch and guard the opposing team’s best ball handler/scorer and can also hit 3s.

Please give me more redundancy like that!

Mikal is not redundant in that he can also score off the dribble and make plays. He’s not a #1 option, but he’s a very solid scoring and play making option. He can also take over OG’s role defensively if OG is out.

OG can and will play some PF and be very effective at it.

I like this deal. I don’t see how drafting the picks we gave up would help us given our timeline of winning, at least not the 25 and 27 picks. Who knows what 29 and 31 will bring. I’ll worry about that in 4 years after we hopefully are a ECF or finals caliber team the next few years. Drafting those players certainly would not help us more than a player like Bridges will in the near term. If you want to talk about opportunity cost and that they could be applied to another player, fine, but that’s purely speculation. Assuming we sign OG, I don’t see the problem with this team. Maybe we don’t have high-end star talent, but we do have one star and probably more high end role players or secondary players than any other team in the league.

I feel like we basically consolidated a bunch of middling assets into an excellent, tangible player that will help us.

You have to keep OG, or make a close to equal value sign and trade. If you do, this deal is great. Otherwise it’s awful.

by the way guys – just to get an idea of the job Leon and co have done:
Leon took over during the 2019-2020 season (right before covid).

The leading minutes getters for the Knicks that season:

Randle
RJ
Mitch
Bobby Portis
Marcus Morris
Elfrid Payton
Ntilikina (7th in minutes! 1200 minutes!!)
Kevin Knox (8th in minutes – 1200 minutes!!)
Taj Gibson (1000 minutes!)
Damyean Dotson
Reggie Bullock
Wayne Ellington
DSJ
Allonzo Trier

And now? potentially running Brunson, Mikal Bridges, OG, Randle, iHart with Josh Hart, Deuce, DDV, Mitch coming off the bench.

Again, good effort — but all the actual evidence is that he really didn’t like his experience here that much, or that it was just a neutral.

There’s absolutely no evidence of that other than a questionable article about his role in the offense. He looked very happy to me when he was playing. I’m not buying any of it. He was just working his way into the team when he got hurt and that whole “role in offense nonsense” was about getting paid. He and everyone else knows that you have to score to get paid. Well, he’s going to get paid.

Lots of hand-wringing today!

1. I feel WILDLY positive about this move. Sure, it was a lot of picks, but it’s The American Way to buy-now-pay-later for the shit you really want/need, so let’s rock n’ roll, mfers.

2. That one Hartenstein quote is getting way overblown. Guys: he’s staying. He loves NYC, basically won the starting job, is BEST friends with Mitch, likes the Nova guys, and no fn way he or his wife wants to live in OKC now after living like a rich person in the city. I just really don’t see it. And despite his many, many flaws, Dolan is connected enough to get Kourtney any acting/hosting/modeling gig she could dream up. Plus, look forward to seeing iHart in a slew of local commercials next year. So, in short: he’s staying. Book it.

3. There’s no way Leon & Co. will remain hard-capped. They are the best of the best at this stuff. This should not be a worry, even if, by the end of their dealings, they are capped out (hint: it would be because they had created the perfect rotation already.) Not worried at all about this.

4. OG is a little more of a worry. It’s hard to read too much into these leaks about him. But… I’m guessing Leon had a good idea about our chances to re-sign him before making the initial trade. Otherwise, why make it for one long-shot playoff run? Oh, and Leon’s SON is his agent!

Look, I know Knick PTSD is a very real thing, but I feel like Leon has earned our trust for at least a week or two, no?

So that situation seems unrelated to the Mikal trade.
Unless they know they’re going to be hardcapped with only $48 million left to spend, and so informed the world that iHart was likely gone.

Unfortunately this seems like a completely plausible timeline.
One can only hope that iHart decides $72MM and a real chance at a championship is better than ending up in Charlotte or something. We should stage an intervention and have him talk to Gordon Hayward who took the $ and immediately became completely irrelevant.

“Tatum and Brown” are redundant and “Jrue and White” are redundant in that same way. Having good, switchable wings is good in today’s NBA.

Also, considering how much the Knicks sucked in bench minutes post-IQ trade, having redundancy is really good thing.

I still think it’s an overpay, but context matters here: the opportunity cost is somewhat reduced given that the Knicks were likely to be hard capped pretty soon. I think their bet is that none of the big stars are going to be in the market in the next 12 months. You could still argue that keeping the draft assets would be better, but I do think their financial situation makes this less black and white. You have to play the hand you are dealt before you are stuck with the aprons.

IHart did buy a place in white plains after the season, if that’s a sign of anything.

by the way guys – just to get an idea of the job Leon and co have done:

Y’all really look at this post… completely insane. Leon (who already makes crazy money) actually deserves a raise.

In the same way, Mikal isn’t really 2 although he can play the 2.

In his most productive season last year he played 80% of his minutes at the two for the Nyets. A positionless player.

Kinda like Earl Monroe really wasn’t a 2 guard, but played it pretty successfully for the Knicks.

I don’t care about the redundancy argument at all, because of what Marechal, Strat and others said, having two elite defending wing players who can shoot is precisely what every team wants in this league.

If we look at the trade in a simpler way, we got the team that beat Philly in the playoffs last season and swapped the 9th rotation guy for Mikal Bridges. It’s hard to not be excited about this unless you’re an extremely cynical person. If this doesn’t affect our chances of re-signing OG and IHart, even better.

We could have waited forever for the proverbial top player to shake loose and be available for a similar package, but that’s so uncertain and there’s no guarantee this package would even be enough for other trades. Other teams may value players more than picks and then we’re stuck in a situation where Bojan’s contract expired and we have no way to make another move after.

I’m concerned about Mikal guarding Tatum and Brown, SGA and Jalen, Luka and Kyrie, Murray, and Maxey.

I couldn’t care less if he “plays the 2”.

Mikal Bridges in 2023-2024: SG—29%; SF—50%; PF—20%; C—1%

I’m concerned about Mikal guarding Tatum and Brown, SGA and Jalen, Luka and Kyrie, Murray, and Maxey.

I couldn’t care less if he “plays the 2”.

Actually I have not watched much of Bridges the last few years. Is he a guy that can really guard these quick PG-ballhandler types like SGA, Maxey, Kyrie? Because while OG is an amazing defender, I think of him as more of a 2-4 defender with some ability to guard 1s and 5s in a pinch.

I think we can put the redundancy argument to bed since only one person is complaining about it and everyone in the world who follows the NBA in any capacity knows that having multiple players who can guard multiple positions, handle the ball and hit 3s is good redundancy and what basically every team in the modern NBA wants.

I feel like we basically consolidated a bunch of middling assets into an excellent, tangible player that will help us.

same…generally this front office has seemed to get good value for money/assets…similar to DDV/hart/brunson/ihart…this dude will blossom here…

OG’s not a 4.

In a world where PJ Washington & Jayson Tatum are the starting 4s in the NBA finals, OG can definitely be a 4.

I see redundancy here but it’s the finest kind. They work just as well with Randle at the 4 and Donte at the 2.

They could legitimately run some very fun units:

Start with JB-Mikal-OG-Randle-C

Then some minutes with JB-DDV-Hart-OG-C

And then Deuce-DDV-Mikal-Hart-C

Not to mention the JB-DDV-Mikal-OG-C unit that would have so much space, especially if I-Hart is that C.

Actually I have not watched much of Bridges the last few years. Is he a guy that can really guard these quick PG-ballhandler types like SGA, Maxey, Kyrie? Because while OG is an amazing defender, I think of him as more of a 2-4 defender with some ability to guard 1s and 5s in a pinch.

No idea, but that’s what I care about.

I’ll say that I’m unconvinced his defense has kept pace with his reputation. I think he’ll be good on defense, the problem is that we paid for a player that’s elite on both sides.

I’m glad to know that we have some fist rounders left.

I suppose the unknown in terms of evaluating the front office’s choice is whether they had intel that I-Hart was leaving anyway. If he was likely to come back and they killed that possibility with the trade, I’d be disappointed. If they had a strong sense that he was leaving, then this makes more sense to me.

It really sucks that they can’t offer him more than 72m.

They could legitimately run some very fun units:

Start with JB-Mikal-OG-Randle-C

Then some minutes with JB-DDV-Hart-OG-C

And then Deuce-DDV-Mikal-Hart-C

Not to mention the JB-DDV-Mikal-OG-C unit that would have so much space, especially if I-Hart is that C.

I think all these possibilities could spell trouble for Thibs in the long term. He’s at his best when there are 6 players available. Choices are his kryptonite.

And if we’re out there playing someone like Precious or Sims bc he’s scared of 5 out, people will start calling for his head.

OK, so assuming Leon has done his homework, the team will look like this:

PG: Brunson, Deuce
SG: Mikal, DDV
SF: OG, Hart
PF: Randle, XXX
C: iHart, Mitch

That’s a team that can definitely compete with Boston. What we need now is a Randle backup (less for minutes and more in case of emergency) and a bench guy who can get to the rim would be nice. Obviously our options are limited for vets unless we’re just ok with being over the cap next season, and even still, we are sort of out of tradable salary assuming we keep Mitch.

So if we keep our draft picks (we have to keep at least one first), a guy like Collier could make sense, although he likely won’t be able to contribute this year. Sims is probably getting dumped, so a third-string big is an option. If they trade up, Dillingham might be on the menu (as a Kentucky guy)… or da Silva would make a cromulent Randle backup, same with Holmes. Jaylon Tyson would make a lot of sense as a guy who can (in theory) create his own shot. That said, taking at least one “project” also makes sense, since we won’t have a lot of bites at the apple by 2028, so they might want to select and groom a guy like Justin Edwards for the future.

Assuming our picks stay where they are, I’d be ok with something like:

24: Yves Missi or Ryan Dunn
25: Jaylon Tyson
38: Justin Edwards

Or, we could draft with even more of an eye toward the future and do something like:

24: Tyler Smith
25: Pacome Dadiet
38: Jonathan Mogbo

Remember, if we have our midlevel, it will be relatively easy to find a cromulent third-string center, especially one in the Thibs mold.

I’ll say that I’m unconvinced his defense has kept pace with his reputation.

Going by EPM, they have him vacillating between 85th and 75th percentile in dEPM over the years. For some reason, bref doesn’t have On/Off for DRtg and the NBA broke their website somehow so I can’t check there.

Big overpay, but if the other stuff pans out I will be ecstatic. The only issue is I am not sure if I can wait 4 months until the season starts. And for once I would agree with E that Thibs may be the weak link in the whole organisation.

I think all these possibilities could spell trouble for Thibs in the long term.

If this winds up with no iHart, no Mitch (*), a positional redundancy, and a need for stretchiness and versatility and creativity, one then naturally wonders whether Thibs will be extended.

(*) And no Edey, likely causing multiple table poundings from Thibs as we speak.

Ok ok ok..to end the hand wringing and start the anxious anticipation for the season..

Assuming OG’s return because we can pay him more, our 8 man rotation right now is Mitch/Randle/OG/Bridges/Brunson/Deuce/DiVincenzo/Hart..

And we have 3 picks in this draft and the ability to offer vet minimum deals for useful players? Plus we can probably afford to bring Achiuwa back, who seems to want to be a Knick as well?

Holy shit! When is the last time we’ve seen our Knicks in this good of a position? Yes- the Bridges trade cost alot and is an overpay in a vacuum. But this team is in their prime and even if we lose Randle, those picks are in the 20’s for the next 4-5 years. I think that was the best and most sensible trade Leon could make and he deserves all the credit in the world for pulling it off, even if he had to slightly overpay. Let’s not forget what Gobert went for. Bridges means more for this team than Gobert means for Minnesota, as he changes the game in positive ways more than Gobert does. So..overpay or not- it was worth it

…swimming as hard as I can from Mitch Island to iHart Island…

I think all these possibilities could spell trouble for Thibs in the long term.

Yeah, definitely worried about Thibs. Assuming OG comes back, this is a team that screams for lineup tinkering and throwing different looks at opponents which has been totally anathema to Thibs.

If this winds up with no iHart, no Mitch (*)

In what universe are we going into next season with Jericho Sims as our only C?

Yeah, E is banging the absurdist Disaster Drum as hard as he can to get attention. Luckily nobody is paying attention. Let’s keep it up.

Debate over minutiae ongoing in Knicks Twitter–
Possible that Sims could be outgoing thereby allowing us to take in less than we send out, which would then NOT hard cap us at the 1st apron.

But CBA language might suggest that even though Sims was signed with part of the MLE (and not the minimum salary exception), he might still count as a minimum salary. Katz says he thinks it’ll work but he is still checking with the league to be sure.

The text of the CBA:

“For the purposes of this [aggregation] rule only, a “Minimum Traded Player” is a player whose Contract provides for his applicable Minimum Player Salary for the Salary Cap Year in which the trade of his Contract occurs”.

E is flailing away, trying to shoehorn his ugly shtick into a situation that won’t accommodate it. But he’s been the laughingstock of the blog for years, why stop now?

I’m not too worried about Thibs. He’s not the quickest draw, and I’m sure we’ll all be throwing shoes at the screen for the first half of the season as he figures things out in his tortoise-like way. But he does seem to figure things out eventually. Whether any of us will have functional screens left by the time he does is a better question.

And remember, one of the reasons this team is an actual greater than the sum of its parts is Thibs and Thibs culture. And getting Thibs players. That comes with the tortoise cost, but I can live with it. Plus I don’t wear shoes while watching the games…

The “improvement with a change of scenery” concept is probably a little overblown, but I took a look at Derrick White’s stats before and after the trade from the Spurs to the Celtics and his improvement is pretty significant

3 point% with Spurs – .344 with Celtics .380
EFG% with Spurs – .515 with Celtics .559

I think he’s a pretty good comp for Bridges, two way player who blossomed when surrounded with much better players

“For the purposes of this [aggregation] rule only, a “Minimum Traded Player” is a player whose Contract provides for his applicable Minimum Player Salary for the Salary Cap Year in which the trade of his Contract occurs”.

This means pretty unambiguously that the player has to make the minimum he can make. If Sims doesn’t make the minimum (*), he’s not a “Minimum Traded Player.”

(*) In 2024-25, if that’s the League Year in which the trade is consummated.

Going by EPM, they have him vacillating between 85th and 75th percentile in dEPM over the years. For some reason, bref doesn’t have On/Off for DRtg and the NBA broke their website somehow so I can’t check there.

But that’s the problem. The 85th percentile last season was +1.2 DEPM. By contrast, OG was at +3.1 DEPM and Caruso was at +3.4. So even the upper range there falls well short of what I’d consider a truly impact defender.

There’s a lot of confounding factors—Nets fans thought Mikal couldn’t sustain the offensive load for 4Qs, let alone the defense. Maybe he rockets up the rankings playing under Thibs and next to OG instead of Cam Thomas.

End of the day, I think you just need to see the film from the past couple years and speculate a bit on his energy level in a scaled down role. But looking at the numbers, it’s not there and the question hanging in the air is whether he’s lost a step that he can’t get back.

Actually I have not watched much of Bridges the last few years. Is he a guy that can really guard these quick PG-ballhandler types like SGA, Maxey, Kyrie?

yes. even last year i watched mikal guard: curry, sga, kyrie, harden, trae and…jalen brunson for more than just a few possessions and even though he had some disturbing defensive moments in general on the nets relative to old mikal, he can still be very credible against smaller lead guards.

in fact i think mikal is at his best defending smaller and when he gets hurt it is because he doesn’t handle size as well as you’d expect. in that sense he’s a really good fit with OG as co-wing stoppers, because OG is excellent against size and not at his best against small speed.

E is flailing away, trying to shoehorn his ugly shtick into a situation that won’t accommodate it. But he’s been the laughingstock of the blog for years, why stop now?

Pretty sure my “ugly shtick” is and was spot-on all along now that we’ve seen Leon (*) dump the entire asset chest for a Tier 3/4 player.

(Though I’m sure we’ll see a bunch of revisionist history now holding that when Katz and Macri and everyone said “superstar” what they really meant was “final piece to the puzzle.”)

Is what it is.

(*) Probably at Dolan’s urging.

I just think that Leon Rose has given us no reason to think he’s a completely inept manager, and he would have to be a completely inept manager to do this trade, then watch as IHart and OG both walk with no other plan in sight.

I understand there are viable arguments against some of the moves he has made, I disagree with some of them myself, but this is the best front office we’ve had in literal ages. I’ll trust them a bit more before making catastrophic projections.

—

This means pretty unambiguously that the player has to make the minimum he can make. If Sims doesn’t make the minimum (*), he’s not a “Minimum Traded Player.”

but sims does make the minimum. there is ambiguity because although he appears to make the minimum he signed under the mle and not the minimum exception. it’s not certain, but i think the language cuts against them. see the definition of minimum salary under I (kk).

but sims does make the minimum.

Then he counts.

I understand there are viable arguments against some of the moves he has made, I disagree with some of them myself, but this is the best front office we’ve had in literal ages. I’ll trust them a bit more before making catastrophic projections.

What frequent internet commentators (sports, politics, whatever) don’t fully understand is that there are a bunch of people out there who just take things on the merits, as they go, and don’t use the shorthand person-based, “trust” heuristic.

I/We aren’t looking to see whether we can “trust” Leon Rose (and then defer/appeal to his trust/authority); we’re looking to the things Leon Rose says and does.

It would be a complete disaster if he (OG) bolted, Bridges or no Bridges, and Leon is not letting that happen

Yes, I’m begging the gods for this to be true, but —

The Bridges overpay in draft picks does seem like the kind of deal you would make to head off bad news that OG is leaving. Either that, or it is saying to OG, while negotiating: we can survive if you walk, so ask for a reasonable number.

And, yes, I know we can pay OG more than anyone else, and Leon’s son is the agent, and we want OG at all costs (maybe) yadda yadda. I get it, but the new medical hiring and the leaks suggest OG might have some issues. Leon may be playing his own hardball by adding Bridges.

but sims does make the minimum. there is ambiguity because although he appears to make the minimum he signed under the mle and not the minimum exception. it’s not certain, but i think the language cuts against them. see the definition of minimum salary under I (kk).

If that’s the defining language, he has to make the minimum salary for his experience level. Doesn’t have anything to do with the salary cap mechanism permitting his signing.

“Minimum Player Salary” means: (i) with respect to a Contract
(other than a Two-Way Contract) that covers the entire Regular Season, the
Minimum Annual Salary called for under Article II, Section 6(a); (ii) with
respect to a Contract that covers less than the entire Regular Season (other
than a Two-Way Contract or 10-Day Contract), the Minimum Annual Salary
called for under Article II, Section 6(a) multiplied by a fraction, the
numerator of which is the number of days remaining in the NBA Regular
Season as of the date such Contract is entered into, and the denominator of
which is the total number of days of that NBA Regular Season; and (iii) with
respect to a 10-Day Contract, the Minimum Annual Salary called for under
Article II, Section 6(a) multiplied by a fraction, the numerator of which is
the number of days covered by the Contract and the denominator of which
is the total number of days of that NBA Regular Season.

.
.
.
.
.

“Minimum Annual Salary” means the minimum Salary that must
be included in a Player Contract (other than a Two-Way Contract) that
covers the entire Regular Season in accordance with Article II, Section 6(a).

…swimming as hard as I can from Mitch Island to iHart Island…

LOL

But that’s the problem. The 85th percentile last season was +1.2 DEPM. By contrast, OG was at +3.1 DEPM and Caruso was at +3.4. So even the upper range there falls well short of what I’d consider a truly impact defender.

I’m not sure how you’re defining impact defender then. If the player with the best dEPM in the league, Jonathan Isaac, is +4.1 then he’s kind of by default an impact defender. Most season, the best dEPM tops out around +4.

Looking at their database which goes back to 2014, only a few players have hit +5: Tony Allen +5.5 and Andrew Bogut +5.2 in 2015; Draymond +5.3 and Gobert +5 in 2017; Gobert +5.5 in 2021; and Draymond +5.1 in 2022.

FWIW, my guess would be that it doesn’t matter how we signed Sims to a minimum contract, all that matters is that he’s making the minimum salary and that means is a minimum salary player.

The “positional redundancy” argument is spectacularly bad. E either has no idea how the modern NBA works (possible) or is just shitposting to get a rise out of people (probable). Either way a highly embarrassing look, and that has little to do with whether or not you approve of this trade. There are plenty of reasons not to like the trade, but “positional redundancy” isn’t one.

I’m not too worried about Thibs. He’s not the quickest draw, and I’m sure we’ll all be throwing shoes at the screen for the first half of the season as he figures things out in his tortoise-like way. But he does seem to figure things out eventually. Whether any of us will have functional screens left by the time he does is a better question.

For this reason, I believe he will learn to stop worry and love the small ball lineups with OG at C

Section 6. Minimum Player Salary.
(a) Except with respect to 10-Day Contracts provided for in Section 9
below, Rest-of-Season Contracts provided for in Section 10 below, and
Two-Way Contracts provided for in Section 11 below, no Player Contract
shall provide for a Salary of less than the applicable scale amount contained in the Minimum Annual Salary Scale applicable for such Salary Cap Year.

The Minimum Annual Salary Scale applicable to a player’s Contract is
determined by the Salary Cap Year encompassing the first Season covered by the Contract. Accordingly, for example, if the first Season covered by a player’s Contract is the 2023-24 Season, then the Minimum Annual Salary Scale for the 2023-24 Salary Cap Year shall apply for each Season of the Contract.

.
.
.

(d) On July 1 of each Salary Cap Year, any Player Contract (other than
a Two-Way Contract), whether entered into before or after the effective date of this Agreement, that provides for a Salary for the upcoming Season that is less than the applicable Minimum Player Salary based on the Minimum Annual Salary Scale applicable to the player’s Contract shall be deemed amended to provide for the applicable Minimum Player Salary based on such Minimum Annual Salary Scale.

.
.
.

(f) Every Contract entered into between a player and Team that is
intended to provide for Compensation equal to the Minimum Player Salary
(with no bonuses of any kind) for each Season must contain the following
sentence in Exhibit 1A of such Contract and shall be deemed amended in the manner described in such sentence: “This Contract is intended to provide for a Base Compensation for the ____________ Season(s) equal to the Minimum Player Salary for such Season(s) (with no bonuses of any kind) and shall be deemed amended to the extent necessary to so provide.” The
reference in the preceding sentence to “no bonuses of any kind” shall not
be construed to limit the ability of a Team and player (i) to agree upon provisions entitling a player to earn Compensation if such player’s Uniform
Player Contract is traded to another NBA team in accordance with Section
3(k) above, or (ii) to enter into a Contract with an Exhibit 10 Bonus, subject to the limitations in Section 3(s) above and Section 11(h) below.

Looks like “redundancy” will join “moxie” in the vastly misinterpreted term world, so all in good fun. Give, and you have to take. Long understood.

But in any event, OG really isn’t a 4 and Mikal isn’t really a 2. Factorial. If that doesn’t bother any particular poster, fine. It doesn’t really bother me all that much, either. But it bothers me to a non-zero degree, particularly given the massive overpay.

FYI, according to Larry Coon, minimum salaries are not counted by the team receiving them but they are counted by the team sending them: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q88

If that’s correct then we shouldn’t have anything to worry about.

Pumped for the possibility that we might be rooting for a true fucking contender. KP is not built for the “repeat” effort. He barely survived the cakewalk.

I cannot see Leon making the “final piece” deal with this amount of draft capital without having an agreement in principle. Leon has been risk adverse for his entire tenure (sometimes to his detriment) and Leon’s not:

1-making the original trade giving up IQ for a rental for a knicks team that wasn’t ready to contend when the trade was made
2-Trading away that many picks with no core players attached (i do not count the corpse of Bogey as a piece)

To not run a Brunson, OG, Bridges, Randle, iHart/Mitch starting squad, curse of Dolan aside. It makes no sense for OG to leave a ECF squad to go to another team so he can “generate offense.” This is also why (outside of cap reasons) iHart will take the offer from Leon. Why leave a starting job on a contending team to be a backup in a small market, especially when he has been fucked left right and center by other teams outside of us (Nets draft lies, Clippers dropping him, etc.). This is my homer take lol.

FYI, according to Larry Coon, minimum salaries are not counted by the team receiving them but they are counted by the team sending them: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q88

If that’s correct then we shouldn’t have anything to worry about.

this is the wrong cba and has nothing to do with the no stacking min salaries in the offseason rule

Looks like “redundancy” will join “moxie” in the vastly misinterpreted term world, so all in good fun. Give, and you have to take. Long understood.

But in any event, OG really isn’t a 4 and Mikal isn’t really a 2. Factorial. If that doesn’t bother any particular poster, fine. It doesn’t really bother me all that much, either. But it bothers me to a non-zero degree, particularly given the massive overpay.

Drivel.

I/We aren’t looking to see whether we can “trust” Leon Rose (and then defer/appeal to his trust/authority); we’re looking to the things Leon Rose says and does

And yet you’re making catastophic projections about this team in JUNE, with 3 months left in the offseason. A part of commentating on something with at least a little bit of good will is understanding that the situation is in motion and the offseason is far from over.

It’s pointless to evaluate this move like you’re doing without knowing how he’s going to solve the rest of the situation. So, in that case, I’ll reiterate that I TRUST Leon Rose has a plan.

At the end of the day we all know that no matter how the situation unfolds you’ll find a way to spin your personal biases on it, so this comment is also pointless, but well, I’ve got time today I guess.

It makes no sense for OG to leave a ECF squad to go to another team so he can “generate offense.” This is also why (outside of cap reasons) iHart will take the offer from Leon. Why leave a starting job on a contending team to be a backup in a small market, especially when he has been fucked left right and center by other teams outside of us (Nets draft lies, Clippers dropping him, etc.). This is my homer take lol.

This ignores a couple of things.

1. We didn’t make the ECF last season so we’re not an ECF squad.

2. The choice isn’t between the Knicks and the dregs of the league. There are good teams that have enough cap space to sign OG/iHart including Philly and OKC.

3. Players leave good teams all the time for more money/opportunity to play. Just last summer, Bruce Brown left Denver to sign with Indiana. Hell, two years ago Brunson left a Dallas team that had just gone to the WCF to sign with a team that finished 37-45 and missed the playoffs.

And yet you’re making catastophic projections about this team in JUNE, with 3 months left in the offseason.

I haven’t made a single projection about the team, much less anything catastrophic. It stands to be a very good team.

It’s pointless to evaluate this move like you’re doing without knowing how he’s going to solve the rest of the situation.

It’s a massive overpay for the player. There are no moves that can change that.

I wouldn’t worry about Thibs not having an extension yet as a sign of anything. It’s clearly a very busy time for the front office. They have to prepare for the draft, possible trades and free agency and all those things have urgency. An extension for Thibs can get done any time, so it makes sense for them to wait until things get calmer.

I’m not sure how you’re defining impact defender then. If the player with the best dEPM in the league, Jonathan Isaac, is +4.1 then he’s kind of by default an impact defender. Most season, the best dEPM tops out around +4.

Looking at their database which goes back to 2014, only a few players have hit +5: Tony Allen +5.5 and Andrew Bogut +5.2 in 2015; Draymond +5.3 and Gobert +5 in 2017; Gobert +5.5 in 2021; and Draymond +5.1 in 2022.

And you’re saying that Mikal tops out around +1.2 dEPM, which is considerably less than all of those. But we did pay in picks a price commensurate with the marks you cited.

If OG leaves then it’s entirely fair to say he utterly fucked up this situation. It would probably be the beginning of the end of his tenure, because it will represent a massive squandering of assets and a descent back into real deal purgatory. I’ll be the first in line to roast him if that unfortunate event happens.

Hasn’t happened yet though.

this is the wrong cba and has nothing to do with the no stacking min salaries in the offseason rule

I was just listening to the Hoop Collective and they said as long as the Knicks send out a couple of minimums and send out more money than Bridges’s contract they will have 60 million they can spend on OG and I Hart which should be sufficient room (assuming I Hart will take the 72M) to resign both of them.

If OG leaves then it’s entirely fair to say he utterly fucked up this situation.

I think we all agree on this. I would also think the OG situation affects draft picks and/or draft day deals, so I’m surprised he is not yet locked.

I’m excited. Having 2 switchable/long wings who shoot 40 percent from 3 and are good defenders. This is kind of the dream in the modern NBA, no?

DDV will give our bench so much firepower. Thibs will have a plethora of choices and, unlike others, I think he’ll figure it out and take advantage.

The picks…it’s a lot but most of them will be last first round picks and, you know, Leon and Co have been known to figure out how to recoup picks. I could see a trade down tonight with one of them to get back a late first down the road.

I don’t know. We gotta see how it plays out with OG and iHart. But I’m less worried about losing iHart now than I was. I mean by that…even if we lose him I think we will be ok. Thibs has been a pretty good Center whisper throughout his career, especially on defense, and we don’t ask/expect a lot of usage out of our centers anyways.

If OG leaves then it’s entirely fair to say he utterly fucked up this situation.

Yes but also it does kind of depend on how he leaves, no? OG is a saught after commodity and is going to command a lot of money. So, in theory, a sign and trade could bring back a pretty good player, no?

I’m not into the Paul George idea but something on that level could also be in the works, no?

Also, underrated aspect of Mikal. He has been an ironman in his career. It is reasonable to expect him to play most of the regular season games and be available for the playoffs.

And you’re saying that Mikal tops out around +1.2 dEPM, which is considerably less than all of those. But we paid in picks a price commensurate with the marks you cited.

Well, Mikal Bridges is a positive offensive player as well. Of the players I listed, only Gobert in 2017 +2 and 2021 +1.3 and Draymond in 2017 +0.2, has positive oEPM. Bridges is a consistend +1 and change most seasons which puts him in the 80th+ percentile. On top of which, he’s an iron man so he’s in the 90th-95th percentile for estimated wins. He’s not an AllNBA caliber player on either side of the ball but he’s good to very good on both sides and he always plays. I think you’re underestimating how valuable that is.

OG is coming back, but Josh Hart is asking for a trade now. He said he’s not going play 48 minutes now and he’s really pissed off. 😉

I was just listening to the Hoop Collective and they said as long as the Knicks send out a couple of minimums and send out more money than Bridges’s contract they will have 60 million they can spend on OG and I Hart which should be sufficient room (assuming I Hart will take the 72M) to resign both of them.

I thought there was something floating around saying you can’t stack minimums for this purpose, but were limited to one. Isn’t that the whole Jericho Sims discussion?

I was just listening to the Hoop Collective and they said as long as the Knicks send out a couple of minimums and send out more money than Bridges’s contract they will have 60 million they can spend on OG and I Hart which should be sufficient room (assuming I Hart will take the 72M) to resign both of them.

the hoop collective needs a paralegal

Other than during the period beginning on December 15 of
a Salary Cap Year through the NBA trade deadline of such
Salary Cap Year, if a Team is aggregating the Contracts of
three (3) or more Traded Players in a trade and the number
of Replacement Players that the Team is acquiring in respect
of such Traded Players is less than the number of such
Traded Players, then no more than one (1) of such Traded
Players may be a Minimum Traded Player (as defined
below). For the purposes of this rule only, a “Minimum
Traded Player” is a player whose Contract provides for his
applicable Minimum Player Salary for the Salary Cap Year in
which the trade of his Contract occurs or, if the trade occurs
during the period beginning on the day after the last day of
the Regular Season of a Salary Cap Year through the last day
of such Salary Cap Year, a player whose Contract provides
for his applicable Minimum Player Salary in the immediately
following Salary Cap Year.

Can any of our ESPN+ subscribers give me the gist of what Zach Lowe thinks of the deal?

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/40436398/lowe-how-many-draft-picks-make-monster-new-york-knicks-brooklyn-nets-mega-trade-mikal-bridges

OG is coming back, but Josh Hart is asking for a trade now. He said he’s not going play 48 minutes now and he’s really pissed off. 😉

It’s getting even worse.

Now Brunson said he’s sick of Josh Hart complaining about minutes and if we don’t trade him he’s not signing an extension and he wants out too. At least OG just agreed to sign for less now that the Villanova Boys won’t be hogging the ball. 😉

The picks…it’s a lot but most of them will be last first round picks and, you know, Leon and Co have been known to figure out how to recoup picks. I could see a trade down tonight with one of them to get back a late first down the road.

I would be livid if we did that. Assuming we bring back OG and iHart, we’ll have 7 playoff rotation players on the roster, 8 if you want to include Deuce. The flotsam at the bottom of the roster are all already in their mid-20s and wouldn’t appear to have much room for growth. We really need an injection of potential at the bottom of the roster.

Plus, there were a lot of fights on this board about the value of the protected 1sts we were trading for. This trade pretty much showed which side was correct; of the six 1st round picks we’re sending out, five of them are our own 1sts. Only the protected Milwaukee pick is one we traded for.

It is kind of funny that when Leon took over and we got Kenny Payne, drafted IQ, it was how we were all going to just turn into the destination for all former Kentucky players but now it’s Villanova. And both are wildcat mascots.

there were a lot of fights on this board about the value of the protected 1sts we were trading for. This trade pretty much showed which side was correct; of the six 1st round picks we’re sending out, five of them are our own 1sts.

It certainly did prove that Leon’s draft dealings were terrible, but it also proved that Leon can build a championship-caliber team, thus negating two major arguments, and hopefully putting an end to narcissistic victory laps and I-Told-You-Sos.

Apparently, Mikal Bridges has eaten at Chipotle every day for 10+ years. He has also played in every game of his professional basketball career.

Which is the more impressive streak? And which is likely to be broken first?

Btw I am going to go on record and say this is not nearly the overpay y’all think it is.

The Nets were a joke this year. Mikal Bridges checked out. And y’all are grading him as if the checked out version of himself is the real Mikal Bridges.

I expect the Mikal Bridges who posted a 3.3 bpm after the Durant trade and was a starter on Team USA, not the guy who played half-hearted basketball while Cam Thomas took 30 shots. That guy is worth every pick.

I would be livid if we did that. Assuming we bring back OG and iHart, we’ll have 7 playoff rotation players on the roster, 8 if you want to include Deuce. The flotsam at the bottom of the roster are all already in their mid-20s and wouldn’t appear to have much room for growth. We really need an injection of potential at the bottom of the roster.

Plus, there were a lot of fights on this board about the value of the protected 1sts we were trading for. This trade pretty much showed which side was correct; of the six 1st round picks we’re sending out, five of them are our own 1sts. Only the protected Milwaukee pick is one we traded for.

Include Deuce, at least until we see if he’s going to be traded into space or something like that to reduce salary.

I think it’s more likely now they roll out one of tonight’s first round picks (or consolidate them to move up) to replenish picks for later if they need one and to reduce money. It would not even shock me if we have a trade brewing that gets rid of money and brings back some kind of pick value.

Everyone already knew that unprotected picks have more value than protected ones. That doesn’t mean the protected picks don’t have value.

We’ll find some live bodies to put at the end of the bench.

He was a Tier 3B after last year. That’s his peak.

A Tier 3B isn’t worth anything close to four unprotecteds, another top 4 protected, and an unprotected swap.

They’re barely going to be in the first round until a couple years into the 2030s. That’s a basketball eternity.

It’s another overpay, a far bigger overpay than the first one. We’ll see how it works out.

I thought there was something floating around saying you can’t stack minimums for this purpose, but were limited to one. Isn’t that the whole Jericho Sims discussion?

You can listen for yourself at the 13:00 mark. I’m assuming they know what they are talking about. https://www.espn.com/radio/play/_/id/40434713

Can any of our ESPN+ subscribers give me the gist of what Zach Lowe thinks of the deal?

The money quote:

“It’s a risk, and an overpay in cold terms — but one that’s worth it if you believe in the Knicks pre-Bridges infrastructure and trust their evaluation of what other options might have been available now or in the next few transaction cycles”

On that last part, he added:

“New York has now foregone its cleanest paths toward acquiring higher-wattage superstars who might one day become available. This front office has tentacles everywhere. You have to defer to their intel. They might have reason to believe Giannis Antetokounmpo will not become available via trade in the medium-term future. The same might be true of Joel Embiid, a long-rumored Knicks dream target who is 30 with an increasingly scary injury history. (Bridges never misses games.) The Wolves hope to hang onto Karl-Anthony Towns despite tax concerns, sources said, and he might not be the best fit in New York anyway given his massive contract and so-so defense. Jaylen Brown? Yeah, I think Boston is good, thanks.”

And lastly, he echoed what everyone who has been looking at aprons and future salaries has been espousing for weeks here:

“A financial crunch was coming in short order regardless — one that might have limited New York’s ability to make moves like this.

The Knicks couldn’t wait forever.”

PS – Sorry, Zach.

OG is coming back, but Josh Hart is asking for a trade now. He said he’s not going play 48 minutes now and he’s really pissed off. 😉

It’s getting even worse.

Now Brunson said he’s sick of Josh Hart complaining about minutes and if we don’t trade him he’s not signing an extension and he wants out too. At least OG just agreed to sign for less now that the Villanova Boys won’t be hogging the ball. 😉

OG is back out.

The Knicks have decided to bring back Ryan Arcidiacono. Now OG says he refuses to sign an extension because Ryan Arcidiacono will hog the ball with the Villanova boys in practice.

I can’t keep up. Things are moving too fast. 😉

It’s a risk, and an overpay in cold terms — but one that’s worth it if you believe in the Knicks pre-Bridges infrastructure and trust their evaluation of what other options might have been available now or in the next few transaction cycles

It was now or at the trade deadline. There were no “next few” transaction cycles with the new CBA deal. This was a bird in the hand and the correct move.

Stringing together a couple sections of the CBA I posted above, I believe the argument would go as follows:

(1) The contract itself must provide for the player to receive a minimum salary.

Per the CBA (emphasis added):

a player whose Contract provides for his applicable Minimum Player Salary for the Salary Cap Year in which the trade of his Contract occurs”.

Although bound by the rules of the CBA requiring Sims to receive a minimum salary, these rules are outside of the 4 corners of the contract itself. They are instead provided by the CBA.

(2) A minimum contract must contain specific language for it to be a minimum contract AKA “provide” for it.

Per Section II(6)(f), a contract that intends to pay the minimum must provide the following language:

“This Contract is intended to provide for a Base Compensation for the ____________ Season(s) equal to the Minimum Player Salary for such Season(s) (with no bonuses of any kind) and shall be deemed amended to the extent necessary to so provide.”

Presumably a minimum exception contract requires this language and other contracts do not.

This is more than a distinction without difference. This is an important distinction because there are scenarios in which the salary cap goes down and Sims is making more than minimum salary and would not be considered a minimum salary in the current CBA year.

(3) Sims’s contract does not make this provision, therefore he’s not a minimum salary.

Because Sims was signed via the MLE instead of the minimum exception, his contract is not required to include language explicitly stating that his deal is a minimum salary. Absent the precise language of Article II Section 6 (f), his deal cannot be considered a minimum contract and therefore may be aggregated in a deal with another player whose contract does explicitly state that they receive a minimum salary.

TLDR, Sims makes minimum salary but his contract is not a minimum contract because it lacks the relevant language.

It’s a risk, and an overpay in cold terms — but one that’s worth it if you believe in the Knicks pre-Bridges infrastructure and trust their evaluation of what other options might have been available now or in the next few transaction cycles

“Next few transaction cycles.” LOL.

And again, you have to look at this with your own eyes. For literally two decades-plus, year after year, we’ve heard “Superstar X is going to be available soon, Superstar Y is going to be available in two years.” “They’re collecting assets for when a superstar shakes loose.” Giannis himself is still on that list. Giannis himself has been mentioned as still on the list, both in NBA world and on KB.

But now, all of a sudden, after you’ve thrown the asset chest at a Tier 3/4 player, “the next few transaction cycles” are going to be bone-dry.

Quite the coincidence, indeed.

I’d agree that it’s a major overpay, in a vacuum. That’s a lot of picks going out, and one wonders why they had to pony up the pick swap, too.

But, in context of where the roster is and what the team will do the rest of the offseason, it may be a totally fine overpay. Yeah, they gotta either resign OG or, if he leaves, get something decent in a sign and trade. I’m not so concerned about iHart leaving, if that turns out to be the case, though obviously retaining him would be much better.

Thanks, Hubert.

I suppose this will surprise nobody, but I think the Knicks should just make all of their picks in this draft and look to find plug-and-play type players. The window is clearly now, as in this year and the next couple years after this one.

Assuming OG returns, the roster doesn’t have a lot of weaknesses. A rim protecting C would be nice, as would a decent backup PG.

From a piece in The Athletic:

“That makes the acquisition of Bridges, who has not missed a single game in his six-year NBA career, even more important. (Technically, Bridges missed one game in the 2022-23 season when he was traded from Phoenix to Brooklyn in the Kevin Durant deal, but the NBA doesn’t count this as a missed game. In fact, he played 83 games that season due to the schedules of the two squads for which he played.)”

The Knicks are the only team in NBA history that incinerated multiple 1st round picks, overpaid for Randle, overpaid for Brunson, overpaid for J-Hart, overpaid for OG, and now overpaid for Bridges but somehow won 50 games with a team with more injuries than anyone other than Memphis, that everyone universally agrees just improved in basketball terms by swapping Bojan for Mikal, and somehow now has multiple contracts (Randle, Brunson, Bridges and DDV) that all look very attractive.

It’s a miracle I tell you!

It’s a miracle.

Leon must have have swum in the waters at Lourdes!

okay so begley is outright saying hartenstein is expected to get bid well above his early bird and that’s why they think he’s done, he said “25 or so, whatever it is”

I really love the arcane detail that Bridges once played 83 games in a season.

Presumably a minimum exception contract requires this language and other contracts do not.

I would guess any minimum contract requires that language, not just minimum exceptions. That way if it’s pro-rated or for multiple seasons it’s still counts as a minimum contract for cap purposes.

EDIT: never mind this post about Hartenstein. what ptmilo said.

That makes me feel better, actually. I’ve been holding onto “Isaiah Hartenstein scored 0 points in game 7” for far too long.

We really need an injection of potential at the bottom of the roster.

To be clear, I was thinking Leon might take one of the first round picks and trade it down a few spots to pick up a similar pick in a later draft where we gave everything to the Nets.

So we would still have 2 firsts this year and the 2nd but would pick up a future late pick somewhere.

Isn’t the solution to not aggregating a minimum just finding a team that wants a second round pick and a minimum player to join the trade?

You can listen for yourself at the 13:00 mark. I’m assuming they know what they are talking about. https://www.espn.com/radio/play/_/id/40434713

A lot of talking heads aren’t well versed in the CBA, and this is a pretty niche issue on a brand new CBA. It wouldn’t surprise me if they don’t know. It’s an easy thing to gloss over or not even know that you’re suppose to look for it.

@FredKatz

So I got official word on this, though there was initially some differing interpretations from cap people I spoke with:

Sims would count as a minimum salary for these purposes and thus the Knicks could not aggregate him with Diakite/Jeffries to exceed the first apron.

Isn’t the solution to not aggregating a minimum just finding a team that wants a second round pick and a minimum player to join the trade?

I don’t think that would make a difference. I’m pretty sure all salaries we send out in the trade are aggregated regardless of which teams we’re sending them to. I could be totally wrong though.

Some people just enjoy being miserable, expect the worst, and sometimes even seem to root for it.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m belting out my favorite line.

“Made it ma, top of the world!”

OG will be back, the C position will be resolved with either I-Hart or someone else we’ll be enthusiastic about!

This is the terrific team full of team first guys that like each other, that work hard, that will play defense and that are easy to like. They have arrived at the destination. They are a contender.

“Top of the world”

A lot of talking heads aren’t well versed in the CBA, and this is a pretty niche issue on a brand new CBA. It wouldn’t surprise me if they don’t know. It’s an easy thing to gloss over or not even know that you’re suppose to look for it.

ESPN’s Bobby Marks is well versed in that stuff and I would be greatly surprised if they didn’t discuss the cap implications before going on the air.

“I really love the arcane detail that Bridges once played 83 games in a season.”

This actually used to happen relatively often, back in the days when players actually routinely played in all 82 games. I can see at least 25 times when a player played more than 82 games in a season because of trades, etc., led by Walt Bellamy, who played 88 games in 1968-69 (including 35 games with our beloved Knicks in which he averaged 15/11).

okay so begley is outright saying hartenstein is expected to get bid well above his early bird and that’s why they think he’s done, he said “25 or so, whatever it is”

That’s surprising to me. So be it. Good luck to them. That could mean Mitch stays and we move to plan B.

Only because I sometimes enjoy muddying the water, as I have ZERO knowledge of much less expertise in CBA stuff, here’s what Macri wrote a little bit ago:

‘For one, as Fred Katz reported today, it does not seem that Jericho Sims is on a minimum contract (i.e., unable to be stacked with another minimum contract) because he was signed using a portion of the MLE. Ian Begley also wrote in his missive that “if New York executes the Bridges trade in July [which it has to], they can include smaller salaried players like Jericho Sims and one of the players on minimum contracts to avoid being hard-capped at the first apron.”

Now, shortly after both Katz and Begley put this out, Celts scribe Ryan Bernardoni uncovered some language in the CBA implying that someone signed using the MLE would still be considered a minimum contract for the purposes of this exact aggregation rule. As of this writing, Fred is checking in with the league for a final answer.

(I’d dial them myself, but Adam Silver never seems to pick up for me.)’

OG is coming back, but Josh Hart is asking for a trade now. He said he’s not going play 48 minutes now and he’s really pissed off.

I know you’re joking but it’s amazing how much this will minimize Josh Hart’s role after the incredible season he just had.

I love the idea of him and Donte off the bench, but we’ll miss all the little things he did to win games.

so what keeps us (other than it’s yet another draft pick) from drafting a player at 24, 25, or 38 and then trading him to the Nets?

Bridges makes 23,300,000 in 24-25
Bogey makes 19,032,850 in 24-25
So the salary difference is 4,267,150.

Sims makes 2,092,344 in 24-25
25th pick scale = 2,266,700

Combined = 4,359,044

We could also sign the 2nd round draft pick to a contract with a 1st year salary of whatever the difference needs to be and then trade him as part of the trade — couldn’t we?

‘For one, as Fred Katz reported today, it does not seem that Jericho Sims is on a minimum contract (i.e., unable to be stacked with another minimum contract) because he was signed using a portion of the MLE. Ian Begley also wrote in his missive that “if New York executes the Bridges trade in July [which it has to], they can include smaller salaried players like Jericho Sims and one of the players on minimum contracts to avoid being hard-capped at the first apron.”

I’m not going to bust chops too much; the CBA is dry and boring and lawyerly, and the beat has far more important things to handle, but it’s pretty weak sauce to report this somewhat important thing that is the polar opposite of the truth.

I’d propose to them if they’re reading or hearing, staying silent on the matter if you don’t really know.

Now, shortly after both Katz and Begley put this out, Celts scribe Ryan Bernardoni uncovered some language in the CBA implying that someone signed using the MLE would still be considered a minimum contract for the purposes of this exact aggregation rule.

I read and write and edit these kind of documents for a living and as I noted at first interaction with it above, there’s nothing really ambiguous in it and no need to imply anything.

So turning back to basketball, where we stand now is, assuming no adjustments in the trade — which there might be; the new league year hasn’t even started yet — the Knicks are going to be hard-capped. In theory, they could throw in Deuce (who’s more than a throw-in), but if you’re the Nets, why would you help the Knicks out by taking him?

So the salary difference is 4,267,150.

I know we don’t want to give him up but Deuce McBride solves all of this. That’s probably why he (and one less pick) was in the trade floated yesterday.

I think it’s safe to assume when the trade changed, it meant we either figured out a way to avoid the hard cap without including Deuce or we decided to accept the hard cap in order to keep Deuce

Hubert, you made me look:

iHart 24, Mitch 24
Julius 33, OG 15
OG 18, Hart 30
Mikal 33, Divo 15
Brunson 33, Deuce 15

Many assumptions (he says, writing while still dripping from the swim to iHart Island), one of which is that when Julius rests OG slides to the 4 and Hart plays the 3. If that’s true, Hart gets 30 minutes of run. It’s not 48, but it’s decent.

On the other hand, Divo could get screwed.

Or the Nets didn’t want to take him.

Raven I think Hart will still play a lot, I just don’t think he’ll be in our best lineup.

PS – I don’t understand why you swam to iHart island. I think you meant off.

so what keeps us (other than it’s yet another draft pick) from drafting a player at 24, 25, or 38 and then trading him to the Nets?

I believe there’s a 30 day waiting period after signing a pick. There may be a way around this but I’ve already spent way too much time in the CBA today.

In theory, this could be fine. However, Bojan’s deadline to be waived will have already passed. This may be a sticking point for the Nets.

We could also sign the 2nd round draft pick to a contract with a 1st year salary of whatever the difference needs to be and then trade him as part of the trade — couldn’t we?

Only if we use the taxpayer exception. Otherwise the 2nd Rd Exception only goes to the minimum, I believe.

Again, could be wrong but I’ve spent too much time in the CBA today.

All this makes me really like Dennis Smith Jr at the vet min if we can get him for that.

The dream, of course, is Kyle Lowry on vm deal.

And I’m still in on Tyler Kolek.

In fact my backup PG dream is either Deuce or a vet like Lowry/Smith with Kolek as 3rd string understudy.

Hubert, you made me look:

iHart 24, Mitch 24
Julius 33, OG 15
OG 18, Hart 30
Mikal 33, Divo 15
Brunson 33, Deuce 15

Many assumptions (he says, writing while still dripping from the swim to iHart Island), one of which is that when Julius rests OG slides to the 4 and Hart plays the 3. If that’s true, Hart gets 30 minutes of run. It’s not 48, but it’s decent.

On the other hand, Divo could get screwed.

Definitely feels like we aren’t done. It’s an awkward roster construction.

* I can’t trust Mitch as a starting C
* We have too many wings/guards
* OG & the hard cap is a potential issue even without iHart

Randle at C makes the most sense but…

Hubert, you made me look:

iHart 24, Mitch 24
Julius 33, OG 15
OG 18, Hart 30
Mikal 33, Divo 15
Brunson 33, Deuce 15

Wait why are you counting iHart? Did I miss a memo or did you?

I believe there’s a 30 day waiting period after signing a pick. There may be a way around this but I’ve already spent way too much time in the CBA today.

Yes – but this has been done before without issue (if I remember correctly, the Kevin Love for Andrew Wiggins trade was held up for 30 days because of this)

In theory, this could be fine. However, Bojan’s deadline to be waived will have already passed. This may be a sticking point for the Nets.

I believe the Knicks have to guarantee the contract before the trade can take place since he is the salary going back. So there’s no waiving.

Only if we use the taxpayer exception. Otherwise the 2nd Rd Exception only goes to the minimum, I believe.

Right – we would use a portion of the taxpayer MLE so as not to get caught in the minimum salary problem we have with trying to aggregate Sims/Diakite/Jefferies

That CBA stuff is extremely complicated and imo not worth the effort for guys like us, especially because it changes every few years. They pay people 7 figure salaries to stay on top of those things and look for ways to take advantage of the rules or at least maximize their own ability to team build. They pay us zero and we have other jobs and lives. This is the kind of thing where you have to trust the team has some experts on staff (like Aller) that won’t make any major blunders and with the expertise of basketball people have solid plans in place. I trust we’ll be OK at center when it’s all said and done. You don’t go all in on Mikal without a plan A, B, and C for center.

There are people out there that are probably available to replace I-Hart if he leaves. Jonas Valanciunas might be available. Maybe Mitch would like to go to New Orleans given has has history there. Then we’d be a legitimate 5 out team and Precious would be the backup. A couple of other names have been throw out there also. We’ll see.

I don’t think the Nets are planning on waiving Bojan. They will probably trade him for another pick mid season.

@mikeygrogins_
Knicks (projected) rotation turnover since Leon Rose took over 4 years ago.

Elfrid Payton->Jalen Brunson
RJ Barrett->Mikal Bridges
Mo Harkless->OG Anunoby
Julius Randle->Julius Randle
Taj Gibson->Mitch/Hartenstein

Frank Ntilikina->Deuce McBride
Wayne Ellington->Donte DiVincenzo
Kevin Knox->Josh Hart

@mikeygrogins_
·
3h
In that process they lost 4 unprotected 1sts, and gained 2 protected 1sts and a bunch of 2nds

no idea who this guy is, but a friend sent it to me and it’s an interesting way to look at things holistically

Hubert, unless they’ve already lost iHart, I swam from Mitch Island (where I was begging them not to trade him) to iHart Island to beg them not to trade HIM. I want the two-headed monster.

If we’ve already lost him (and I know the rumors, but they seem to change like the Caribbean trade winds out here) then I guess I’ll just go lie face down in the water and see if the sharks are hungry.

In theory, they could throw in Deuce (who’s more than a throw-in), but if you’re the Nets, why would you help the Knicks out by taking him?

If money becomes an issue, Deuce may be gone either way. But to answer your question, they already helped the Knicks by trading Bridges (which was supposed to be impossible). Deuce is a good young player that would fit their long term rebuild plans. If they get good value in changing the trade, they’ll do it.

I believe the Knicks have to guarantee the contract before the trade can take place since he is the salary going back. So there’s no waiving.

In the relevant sense I believe he is already guaranteed for next year. I think his team can choose to waive him and pay $2M by the 28th. I believe the guaranteed salary differentiates his deal from a team or player option that requires the type of guarantee you’re thinking of. I could be wrong though.

I don’t think the Nets are planning on waiving Bojan. They will probably trade him for another pick mid season.

In theory they can line up another trade or expand the current trade to help a 3rd team cut salary for the upcoming season. If there’s no such trade available, then yeah it’s not a big deal.

At C I’d be fine if we brought back Precious and drafted Ware or Missi.

Mitch / Precious / a rookie

Works for me.

That CBA stuff is extremely complicated and imo not worth the effort

Yeah, I respect the effort of everyone trying to figure out if Jericho Sims counts as a minimum or is just a minimum. But I’ll just wait til Friday.

I kind of want Edey, although I don’t *want* to want Edey.

The bigger question is: Do I watch the second round of the NBA Draft tomorrow night, or do I tune into the shitshow known as the Biden/Trump Debate? That’s a tough one.

“And again, you have to look at this with your own eyes. For literally two decades-plus, year after year, we’ve heard “Superstar X is going to be available soon, Superstar Y is going to be available in two years.” “They’re collecting assets for when a superstar shakes loose.” Giannis himself is still on that list. Giannis himself has been mentioned as still on the list, both in NBA world and on KB.

But now, all of a sudden, after you’ve thrown the asset chest at a Tier 3/4 player, “the next few transaction cycles” are going to be bone-dry.

Quite the coincidence, indeed.”

I usually don’t get into the back and forth here. But this is such a beautiful contradiction by E I couldn’t help myself.
Yes! For years we have been chasing bullshit star dreams. And even when we got one (Melo) it turned out crap. Now we have a fringe contender and we make a big bet in a really good player to take us from fringe to top tier and we should still hang on to the dream of Giannis? Booker? Embiid? Leon KNOWS that’s not happening. The league has more parity than at any time since the late 70’s. Now is exactly the time to bet on your core. And a young core at that.

Also, E, how many players are in one of your “tiers” and tier subsections? lol. Made up stuff. Enjoy the ride, man.

At C I’d be fine if we brought back Precious and drafted Ware or Missi.

Mitch / Precious / a rookie

Works for me.

On paper this looks good to me too but I can’t get over Mitch’s injury history and the likelihood we start the playoffs with Precious Achiuwa and a dud rookie at C.

Let’s find a way to get Edey/Dillingham/Filipowski. I’d be over the moon with this outcome, even if we lost iHart (but not OG).

I suppose I could squint and see myself being happy with Goga, but honestly I’d rather start Edey more than I’d like to start him. (I’m assuming for this exercise that iHart is gone and that Mitch is injured much of the time.)

In the relevant sense I believe he is already guaranteed for next year. I think his team can choose to waive him and pay $2M by the 28th. I believe the guaranteed salary differentiates his deal from a team or player option that requires the type of guarantee you’re thinking of. I could be wrong though.

The reports have all said that this trade is taking place in the 2024-25 season so I’m pretty sure that Bojan will have to have his contract guaranteed since his option has to be picked up/dropped before the end of the 2024 season.

Also, E, how many players are in one of your “tiers” and tier subsections? lol. Made up stuff.

They’re not Es, they’re from Seth Partnow at the athletic, but E only uses them when they back up whatever narrative he’s pushing.

The reports have all said that this trade is taking place in the 2024-25 season so I’m pretty sure that Bojan will have to have his contract guaranteed since his option has to be picked up/dropped before the end of the 2024 season.

Yeah you’re right. There’s a moratorium and the trade can’t be completed until July 6, so it’s moot.

All the above suggestions are on the table, although I’d be unhappy offering even more to Brooklyn or dipping into the taxpayer MLE.

I really shouldn’t speculate on these things unless I’m willing to do the work.

no idea who this guy is, but a friend sent it to me and it’s an interesting way to look at things holistically

Interesting and wildly incorrect.

It’s more like:

Payton > Brunson
Barrett > Bridges
Bullock > Anunoby
Randle > Randle
Mitch > Mitch

Bobby Portis > Josh Hart
Ellington > Donte
Dennis Smith Jr > McBride
Knox & Frank > whoever we draft tonight

And he spent 10 first round picks (a pick used on IQ then traded for OG, for instance, is still a pick spent), and has only the two fugazis incoming.

The gist of the Lowe piece (hews closely to KB consensus):

-It’s an “overpay” in a vacuum, but it’s dumb to analyze these things in a vacuum

-The January Knicks were “pretty damn real” from his POV, so adding Mikal Bridges to them without sacrificing any present value makes him pretty bullish on whether the overpay was worth it

-We still have some assets to play with for more marginal trades

-Mikal’s efficiency will be better now that he’s not miscast as a go-to guy, but him being able to be a mediocre one in short stretches will help in the dreaded non-Brunson minutes

-In general, tears are, and should be, more willing to push all the chips in like this because the new CBA has prevented the rise of a team akin to the Durant Warriors. You can’t sit around and wait for a team that’s favored against the field.

-Sources say things are still looking good on the OG front, but all of this changes if he’s not back.

“I usually don’t get into the back and forth here…

Cgreene, with all due respect, today is the last day you should be posting—iHart’s mother is your first priority. Mention how nice White Plains is to start a family even if you have to lie through your teeth (I lived there for 6 months and thank god I left).

Thanks, TNFH!

It’s more like:

Payton > Brunson
Barrett > Bridges
Bullock > Anunoby
Randle > Randle
Mitch > Mitch

Bobby Portis > Josh Hart
Ellington > Donte
Dennis Smith Jr > McBride
Knox & Frank > whoever we draft tonight

When you consider most of the improvement comes from one transaction (Payton > Brunson) that cost zero picks, Leon essentially spent 10 draft picks to move from Barrett/Bullock/Portis to Bridges/Anunoby/Hart.

This isn’t a knock, mind you. I’m painting Leon as Kobe Bryant here. There was no efficiency here, but he scored the points.

Vecenie’s final mock has us landing Kolek, Scheierman, and Djurisic.

Personally I have a feeling we’re drafting a center for a variety of reasons, but I’d be ecstatic about Kolek and Scheierman.

He probably didn’t think too hard about our second rounder, but given our playing time and roster constraints and the need to hoard potential trade assets, taking the best stash guy possible in the second-round wouldn’t be a bad idea.

I like Djurisic in that range. He’s 6’8″ and projects to do a bit of everything.

How much better is Kolek than Rokas? Should we just roll the dice with Jokubaitis and keep our 1st for another purpose?

Macri opines that Rokas might make the Knicks willing to send out Deuce to complete this trade without hard capping at the first apron.

It’s safe to say more shoes will be dropping. It’s also worth mentioning we can still probably re-sign OG if we’re hard capped at the first apron, we just can’t do much of anything else (including make non-stash picks tonight).

What we do tonight should give us some clarity on the plan(s). If we trade out and/or index heavily on stash picks, we’re probably planning on being hard capped at the first apron. If we make non-stash picks, we probably think we have a way out of it. If we take a center in the first round, good chance iHart is gone. If we take a point guard, good chance we’re sending out Deuce to complete the trade.

a pick used on IQ then traded for OG, for instance, is still a pick spent

I thought you spent a draft pick when you picked someone with it because you don’t have it anymore after that.

Macri opines that Rokas might make the Knicks willing to send out Deuce

that would be a shame I’d really like to keep deuce

Vecenie’s final mock has us landing Kolek, Scheierman, and Djurisic.

Personally I have a feeling we’re drafting a center for a variety of reasons, but I’d be ecstatic about Kolek and Scheierman.

My ideal outcome tonight is probably Kolek and either Ware or Missi, but I’ve done very little draft homework.

Kolek seems ready and we need a backup PG. The other guys seem like good projects at a position of need.

that would be a shame I’d really like to keep deuce

I wonder how many times Macri has seen Rokas play (highlights don’t count)…

We need to draft a center now, 100%. A backup PG would be nice, but I’m open to lots. Just bring in some useful, cost-controlled pieces.

Josh Hart is a center

Bam getting 55 million a year, damn, maybe iHart really is getting outlandish money

I too would be sad to lose Deuce. Deuce is like that scruffy little dog that can’t really do anything but be cute that suddenly learns to expertly herd all your sheep AND keep the coyotes at bay.

Take him out to the gravel pit and shoot him? Not me.

Wow!

I like it. If we were in a different position, it would have been an overpay, but Mikal makes too much sense for us, as a fit for the team, and as a contract. It is consequent with Leon’s strategy and standing pat would have come at a very high opportunity cost. No other trade would have been available without disassembling the team. We are going to be a tough team to beat for the next 4 years and definitely in the mix for the title.

I hope we can keep iHart, but let us see who we can get in the draft.

Bernie, I kid you not. I went by the store where she was working the other day to see if I could catch a glimpse and roll in for a casual contract negotiation. No such luck. Haven’t seen her in a few months or the dad walking the dog. Seems as if they have moved on from their White Plains apartment. Sad. It was really the only value I’ve provided to this board in the last 15 years. Lol.

I’d hate to lose Deuce but he isn’t a backup PG. He’s the 3rd string 2 behind Bridges and Donte.

Still, much like Timofey Mozgov in 2011, enough is enough.

iHart’s mother is your first priority. Mention how nice White Plains is to start a family even if you have to lie through your teeth (I lived there for 6 months and thank god I left).

As a former south Yonkers resident, I always thought of WP as a step up even though they have their “hood” spots. That said, why not offer Scarsdale or someplace like Hawthorne? 😉

I mean if there’s some miracle scenario where we both OG and iHart return, then wow, Leon really did something totally incredible. I don’t expect iHart to return, but that would really be something.

Missi vs Ware is an interesting discussion. Missi is more raw and is slightly smaller, but is known as a high-motor player who is very active. Could be a gem with some refining. Ware is the more skilled player, shows a bit of a jump shot and at the very least looks like he should have SOME shooting range in the NBA. Motor is questionable though, as he seems to take plays off and generally has an aloof demeanor.

I’d be happy with either of those guys as a developmental big.

I usually don’t get into the back and forth here. But this is such a beautiful contradiction by E I couldn’t help myself.
Yes! For years we have been chasing bullshit star dreams. And even when we got one (Melo) it turned out crap. Now we have a fringe contender and we make a big bet in a really good player to take us from fringe to top tier and we should still hang on to the dream of Giannis? Booker? Embiid? Leon KNOWS that’s not happening.

Right, but he’s pretending there’s something unique about it being less likely or impossible at this particular time, as opposed to at any time over the last 25 years — which is bullshit.

Losing Deuce would be a huge bummer because it’s decidedly one of the upsides of this trade that we acquired a very good player with negligible production loss from the current roster. That’s really hard to do, and presumably the reason we had to include so many picks.

If Deuce is a casualty, that changes the calculus. I’m somewhat inclined to think that would’ve leaked by now, but it’s possible they have a few paths to making everything fall into place and they need to see how the draft shakes out before choosing one.

The best case scenario is we win the “is Jericho Sims a minimum player” war, though Katz seemed pretty sure that one is settled. Even as a lawyer looking for any language to latch onto, there’s really nothing in the CBA indicating the aggregation rule applies only to players signed with the actual exception.

EDIT: actually I do… never mind.

Since Sims we signed with the MLE…could we have avoided all of this by giving him $1 more than the literal minimum?

Contract was signed before the new CBA so I guess we wouldn’t have known there’d by any reason to do that, but damn.

This thread is a lot.

I am just going to wait and see what happens. I have enough confidence in Aller to think this might have been closer to the optimal move than it feels like currently.

Since Sims we signed with the MLE…could we have avoided all of this by giving him $1 more than the literal minimum?

League would void the trade and treat him like a minimum player for CBA/cap purposes, so you’d have to take the league to arbitration and win. Not sure whether the union would side with you — probably not, as they don’t want minimum members being toyed with, all else equal.

Right, but he’s pretending there’s something unique about it being less likely or impossible at this particular time, as opposed to at any time over the last 25 years — which is bullshit.

No one’s pretending that. The point is that we’re good now and you can’t just put off improving the team because some unnamed player might become available in some hypothetical future. They don’t happen every season and you can’t really predict when they will.

But here’s your chance to make an actual argument. Who do you think we should’ve held out for and when do you think he would have become available.

One of the things that we know about Leon is that, in general, he is pretty averse to risk. I cannot see a scenario in which a center is *not* selected in tonight’s draft (double negative used for purposes of emphasis).

No one’s pretending that.

Zach Lowe, likely channeling the Knicks, is. It’s right there in his article today.

How many tiers are there? If Bridges is “Tier 3/4” but there are 24 Tiers, I’ll take that player all day every day!

I should call my Dad instead of asking this group for feedback on my Leon Rose MSG statue design.

One of the things that we know about Leon is that, in general, he is pretty averse to risk.

I don’t think we can say that after this and the OG trade. These are two humongous risks he took (and I say that with admiration).

How many tiers are there? If Bridges is “Tier 3/4” but there are 24 Tiers, I’ll take that player all day every day!

There are 5 tiers that are then broken out into multiple sub-tiers and Mikal Bridges was the 38 best player in the league.

Zach Lowe, likely channeling the Knicks, is. It’s right there in his article today.

https://giphy.com/gifs/jennifer-lawrence-thumbs-up-ok-Fml0fgAxVx1eM

Even if it was an overpay, I suppose I’m happier that it was for a young, non-star player that fits the team well than for an over-the-hill start that has more name recognition. If anything, it’s a big change for this organization, and it takes quite a bit of self-confidence to do so. So I respect the decision even if I don’t love it. I’m also happy that we can bury the “who’s the superstar trade” question for the foreseeable future.

If you want to read a negative take of our trade here’s the ringer:

https://www.theringer.com/2024/6/26/24186353/mikal-bridges-trade-new-york-knicks-brooklyn-nets

I think one of the dumber takes out there is “that’s more picks than Kevin Durant!” Putting aside MIKAL BRIDGES WAS IN THE TRADE, TOO… Kevin Durant was 34 years old and couldn’t move the needle in Phoenix. Maybe a 27 year old two-way stud should cost more.

If they’re hard capped, can they extend Brunson or Randle this league year?

Last thought…

We should draft Ware tonight as a sign to OG that these can be the Hoosier Knicks, too 🙂

Thomas Bryant is also available. He played with OG at IU. Well, Bryant played. OG was injured.

Look, I like picking guys in the draft. I like the unfettered hope and optimism associated with adding a player who could turn into ANYTHING, while surrendering nothing. I even like watching the stupid draft show, despite it being almost completely pointless! And at some point, your guys all get old and retire so you need young people.

I’ve been thinking about how our picks have turned into really, really good players as lottery picks made by other teams in the past (Jamal Murray, Lamarcus Aldridge, Joakim Noah). Surely this time will be different right?

We gave away more first round picks than the Melo trade + the Bargnani trade + the Eddy Curry trade combined… yikes.

But hey, it still could work out. The team should be freakin’ great and I can’t wait to see them play.

From that Ringer article:

The Knicks still own a couple of protected firsts, but for most intents and purposes, they went all in on a team that just ran out of gas in the second round. It’s an ambitious, gutsy call. If it works, we’ll talk about this group for the rest of our lives. If they continuously get to the playoffs and can’t defeat any teams that employ superstars better than their own, they may come to regret pushing all their chips in on a pretty good player who, um, definitely isn’t Kevin Durant.

That’s basically it. “Ambitious” and “gutsy” are friendly adjectives. Others are available.

I think one of the dumber takes out there is “that’s more picks than Kevin Durant!” Putting aside MIKAL BRIDGES WAS IN THE TRADE, TOO

Yeah, that was a really bad article.

The Ringer really is no Grantland.

@NBADraftWass
Keep an eye on Yves Missi, name I’m hearing could go earlier than some think

All this excitement and I haven’t the foggiest idea who I should be upset about us not drafting tonight!

Seems like a very weird draft – somebody tell me what to believe!

Yeah, that was a really bad article.

The Ringer really is no Grantland.

I still check The Ringer out semi-regularly in hopes that it’s turned into Grantland but it never happens.

Tastycakes, just ask yourself: “Who’s best at 3-on-3?”

We should draft Ware tonight as a sign to OG that these can be the Hoosier Knicks, too

Are there any British players in the draft we should target?

If they’re hard capped, can they extend Brunson or Randle this league year?

This league year, 2023-24, isn’t quite over yet. Both Randle and Brunson become extension eligible in 2024-25 and that extension wouldn’t kick in until 2025-26. So yes, they can be extended as soon as they’re eligible.

Since Sims we signed with the MLE…could we have avoided all of this by giving him $1 more than the literal minimum?

Contract was signed before the new CBA so I guess we wouldn’t have known there’d by any reason to do that, but damn.

What sucks about this is that they DID actually give him more than the minimum raise — it wasn’t a minimum contract in 2022 when he signed it. But because of the new CBA, higher cap, and higher minimum contract value, his non-minimum contract value for 2024-25 as written in his contract was actually less than the minimum contract and so automatically gets upgraded to the 2024-5 minimum value per CBA rules.

Are there any British players in the draft we should target?

Has there ever been any British player in any draft? The UK doesn’t generate many pro athletes outside of soccer and tennis.

Chicanery, OG is from the UK. So at least one.

Re: the apron thing – I remain 100% convinced (and hope not to be proven wrong), that there are many ways for us to avoid being capped at the 1st apron and that Brock Aller already knows how it is going to happen.

Re: why we made the trade –> putting it all together, including the intel that Paul George has multiple teams willing to give him a 4 year max, Ishbia is definitely not trading Durant, and that iHart may be getting huge offers that the Knicks can’t match, Leon and co. were left with the possibility of just trying to run it back WITHOUT iHart — and they thought this will not be good enough. So as to not waste this next year with a good but not great team, they needed to pounce now as opposed to next year with the CBA restrictions get even tighter. Faced with the idea of probably having to trade Julius + Bogey + picks for the privilege of giving 34 year old PG a 4 year max, they decided instead on pushing the chips in now for Bridges – a non-star, but a very very durable, perfectly fitting, and also YOUNG almost-star.

Chicanery, OG is from the UK. So at least one.

As well as Thibs’s OG prototype, Luol Deng

Maybe a 27 year old two-way stud should cost more.

Especially when he’s on a attractive contract now – which means when we extend him it will be lower than if he was on a fair or even worse mildly bad contract now.

—

My feelings about Deuce changed a lot when he started hitting threes.

This might be the draft I know the least about. Ever.

I am just going to wait and see what happens. I have enough confidence in Aller to think this might have been closer to the optimal move than it feels like currently.

Sums it up perfectly.

No point looking at the fine print of something that Aller has been studying and thinking about since it was written. We either have faith in this management team to satisfy the OG and C situations or we don’t. And if they don’t, then we can vent.

To me, this is basically an “all in” move.

We can give OG more than anyone else, we have a contender, and it’s NY. Unless OG absolutely hates NY/Thibs he’s coming back because we will offer whatever it takes to keep him given we are all in anyway.

Chicanery, OG is from the UK. So at least one.

I’m not sure I would count someone who moved to the US when he was 4 years old as a British person.

Re Deuce – I really do not think he is going to be part of this deal. In general, Leon has prioritized sending players to good situations (Grimes aside, I suppose) – it would be a very tough deal for Deuce to be such a good soldier, play so well, sign a below-market contract, and end up on a tanking team with no fans.

There are just too many other ways for us to avoid the apron issue – I really doubt Deuce is how it will happen.

This might be the draft I know the least about. Ever.

I guess this is what happens when your team is really good and we are not focused on young players that probably will not be helpful for 2 years. It’s a weird feeling for a Knicks fan!

the theory on ware is very easy to see but in practice i get some irksome christian wood vibes

I’m not sure I would count someone who moved to the US when he was 4 years old as a British person.

Then rephrase your question. Or sod (aka fuck for a Brit) off,

Here is a thought: maybe the plan is to send Julius Randle for a center? How about Randle for Jarrett Allen?

I’m not sure I love it, and Randle-Mobley probably doesn’t work for the Cavs, but JB-DDV-Mikal-OG-Allen would be a great lineup.

Chicanery – I’m trying not to rise to ‘Britain doesn’t produce many pro athletes outside of soccer and tennis’ but it’s a real struggle…

I got “Randle’s going to be traded vibes” as well.

Tosan Evbuomwan is also a Brit. He is the other active British player besides OG and he plays for the Pistons.

Ben Gordon
Luol Deng
Joel Freeland
Ndudi Ebi
Michael Olowokandi
Kelenna Azubuike
Pops Mensah-Bonsu
James Donaldson
Steve Bucknall
Chris Harris
OG Anunoby
Tosan Evbuomwan

Yep. All Brits. Donaldson, Deng, and Gordon had the longest NBA careers, and Donaldson played a few games for the Knicks in 1991-1992.

I think Bridges is going to be more efficient on somewhat lower volume now that he won’t be asked to create his own shot as much. The thing is, when Brunson and or Randle are out, he’s more capable of that than say DDV. DDV had a great season. I love him as a 6th man. But we are better on both sides now and imo a lot better on defense.

I got “Randle’s going to be traded vibes” as well.

Someone who’s opinion I respect a ton (he called Brunson an emerging when he was signed, called trading RJ and mentioned OG, and called this Mikal trade last year and said it would cost around 5 picks, thinks Randle is out. He’s just not sure if it’s now or at the deadline. This guy knows basketball really well and really seems to have a crystal ball.

We should be able to sign and trade Shake or Burks if we pay a shitty team to take them

What sucks about this is that they DID actually give him more than the minimum raise — it wasn’t a minimum contract in 2022 when he signed it.

Well, at a minimum this would make me personally more comfortable trying to lawyer our way into Sims not counting. So we have that going for us.

An idea being bandied about on Twitter is S&Ting Precious somewhere (this doesn’t hard cap you as long as there are no incoming players via S&T) for an amount that makes up the difference in Bridges’ and Bogey’s salaries ($4,267,150). There’s a 3-year minimum for S&Ts, but only one year needs to be guaranteed and it’s easy to see some team being fine with Precious for a year at that rate:

Here are some ways the New York Knicks could modify the Mikal Bridges trade so they could exceed the $178.7 million first apron, giving them an additional $11 million to field the roster next season:-Assuming Isaiah Hartenstein doesn’t return, fold it into a three team-deal…— Yossi Gozlan (@YossiGozlan) June 26, 2024

We should be able to sign and trade Shake or Burks if we pay a shitty team to take them

Or something like this:

@Jeremy Cohen

The difference between Bridges and Bogdanovic’s 2024-25 salaries is $4,267,150. If the Knicks S&T’d Achiuwa to ensure that they are hard-capped at the second apron instead of the first apron, he would likely stand to earn 3/$13.4M, but only year 1 would need to be guaranteed

Edit: what TNFH said.

Then rephrase your question. Or sod (aka fuck for a Brit) off,

If you asked him, do you think Anunoby would call himself British? Or do you think he’d call himself Nigerian or American?

Maybe it’s because I only see Jarrett Allen play when he plays the Knicks and gets beasted by Mitch and iHart, but I kinda think he is not that great – definitely not worth sending an all-NBA 2nd team PF for.

Assuming we have to lose iHart, I would much rather keep Julius and sign whatever backup center, and have the possibility of going very big (Brunson/Bridges/OG/Randle/Mitch). That lineup is going to absolutely beat people up. As much as I liked OG at the 4 during the playoffs, we did lose some of the physicality that I loved so much. And in terms of non-Brunson minutes – having both Julius and Bridges as capable offense-creators against 2nd teams will be really important. And maybe against backups, Thibs would give Julius at the 5 a look. Second unit of Deuce, DDV, Bridges, Hart, Randle would be pretty amazing.

Re: Kelel Ware – you have to think we will have as honest a scouting report as exists from Mike Woodson. If we draft him, clearly Woodson has signed off on it in terms of Ware giving the Knicks the effort that Thibs requires.

Chicanery – I’m trying not to rise to ‘Britain doesn’t produce many pro athletes outside of soccer and tennis’ but it’s a real struggle…

Sorry, I don’t consider golfers athletes.

Precious wouldn’t do it at that number if he could get more on the market. It seems like a very low number.

I do consider golfers to be athletes, because they are performing acts in a sport that I could never begin to emulate. But of course it’s fine if your mileage varies.

Do you consider professional bowlers to be athletes? I’m guessing not, because they are similarly stationary (not running around or getting out of breath) as golfers.

The UK doesn’t generate many pro athletes outside of soccer and tennis.

Chicanery, let’s look at your quote this way:

The _____doesn’t generate many _______ outside of ____and____..

Replace Brit in the first blank with whatever you want (and feel free to generalise on the other two blanks).Who cares what OG thinks. He might care what you think, given you haven’t asked him.

Bowlers are right on the edge. There’s just enough physical action that I’ve never been certain if they are or aren’t athletes.

“Replace Brit in the first blank with whatever you want. Who cares what OG thinks. He might care what you do, given you haven’t asked him.”

Why would OG give a rat’s ass what Chicanery does?

How can I watch this stupid draft for free without cable? Or at least listen to it while I watch the draft tracker?

The difference in the aprons is about $11 million. It’s not even that big a deal, certainly not worth making the trade a three-team just for the purposes.

They don’t really have a big salary to throw in anyway, certainly not one they’d throw in just for this purpose. It would otherwise have to make basketball sense.

I think bowling is interesting in that the only difference between professional bowlers and any rando off the street is their consistency. Most of us can bowl strikes—hell, once in a while we might be able to bowl three or even four strikes in a row. But professional bowlers, although they are not doing anything that we cannot do (bowling strikes), they can do it 10, 11, or even 12 times in a game with almost alarming consistency.

How can I watch this stupid draft for free without cable? Or at least listen to it while I watch the draft tracker?

I think it’s on straight up ABC

Deuce is better than Precious but we need Precious more than Deuce.

Looking down the road I get concerned with Thibs ability to construct an offense that maximizes the offense. Can’t have it be 70% Brunson pick and roll and everyone standing around. A team with this much firepower needs more creativity in its sets.

I want Precious back, and if we avoid the apron we should be able to use bird rights to sign him and Burks to taxpayer MLE deals.

Chicanery, let’s look at your quote this way:

The _____doesn’t generate many _______ outside of ____and____..

I don’t see the problem. Every country, for various cultural and economic reasons guides their athletes into specific sports. In the US, that generally means football, basketball, and baseball. In Canada, it’s hockey and basketball. In Europe, it’s soccer, basketball, tennis, hockey, or gymnastics depending on where you grew up. For various other countries around the world it’s cricket or ping pong or wrestling or rugby or running or swimming.

And I’m sorry for thinking that OG Anunoby, an ethnically Nigerian man who’s lived in the US since he was 4, to be American or Nigerian-American.

OG resigned!!!!

LETS FUCKING GOOOOOO!!!!!

Woj bomb: OG intends to sign a 5 year $212.5 mil contract!

Includes a player option and a trade kicker. Shit, that’s an AAV of $42.5 million.

He re-signed, not resigned…….but it’s fantastic!!! $42.5M per year…….wow.

Here is full tweet:

@wojespn
Free agent F OG Anunoby intends to sign a five-year, $212.5 million contract to return to the New York Knicks, sources tell ESPN. Deal will include a player option and a trade kicker.

The difference in the aprons is about $11 million. It’s not even that big a deal, certainly not worth making the trade a three-team just for the purposes.

Depending on OGs deal, it’s the difference between jettisoning our two 1sts for minimum deals and keeping our 1sts and also using the taxpayer exception.

Hell yes.

!!!!

You’re next, Mr. Kellar!

Looking down the road I get concerned with Thibs ability to construct an offense that maximizes the offense. Can’t have it be 70% Brunson pick and roll and everyone standing around. A team with this much firepower needs more creativity in its sets.

Outside of what happens with OG and iHart, this is my biggest concern. We can’t be bottom of the league in assists and bottom half in eFG and TS this year when we’ve got this much offensive firepower.

Boston doesn’t have an offensive superstar like LeBron, Curry, Durant, etc but they still put up the best ORtg in the league by two points and led the league in eFG and TS. We don’t need to be best in the NBA but I’d be pretty disappointed if we weren’t top 10.

We were 7th in the league in offense last year and 2nd in the playoffs.

Whoa!!! Great news and I’m shocked! Thought for sure he wanted to hit free agency!

Whoa!!! Great news and I’m shocked! Thought for sure he wanted to hit free agency!

I think he just wanted to get paid, and he was, so he’s cool. Going to free agency was his way to getting his bag, and he now got it.

We were 7th in the league in offense last year and 2nd in the playoffs.

Yes, because we’re a dominant offensive rebounding team. We were 16 and 19 in eFG and TS in the regular season, 10 in the playoffs.

All good Chicaney. OG is a Knick!

Apparently he had max offers but wanted to stay with the Knicks.

This is f*cking great! Leon for Executive of the Year!! 🥳

Still think it was a foregone conclusion at the time that we traded for him, but I’ll take him however we get him.

Apparently he had max offers.

That would be tampering.

Deni Avdija to the Blazers

I know there have been some pretty bad NBA drafts in the past, but is this one the worst ever?

If the Knicks start Anunoby at his lowest possible starting salary to save room under the hard cap next season, this is what a 5-yr, $212.5M contract would look like:

2024-24: $36.6M
2025-26: $39.6M
2026-27: $42.5M
2027-28: $45.4M
2028-29: $48.3M

okay then…wow, leon is turning out to be one smooth operating person in charge…

Two down, one to go?

Also, might be time for a pair of surveys.

For Mikal/OG, the Knicks:
– Paid too much.
– Paid the right amount.
– Got a steal.
– Who the fuck cares!

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