[New York Post] – Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:37:00 GMT
- Mark Cuban denies Mavericks purposefully tanked to get back at Knicks: ‘Not a revenge guy’
- Dallas Mavericks new ownership will change the team, but how?
- Southwest Notes: Cuban, Knicks, Topic, Spurs, Grizzlies’ Draft
- Adam Silver reflects on Mavs’ immoral act that kept Knicks from 2023 draft pick
- NBA Commissioner Defends Fines, Stealing New York Knicks Pick
[Daily Knicks] – Sun, 09 Jun 2024 12:00:12 GMT
- 4 Knicks who could be dangled in trade talks this offseason
- Bojan Bogdanovic contract: Why Knicks forward could be important trade piece
- Pros and cons of Knicks not trading Bojan Bogdanovic this offseason
[Empire Sports Media] – Sun, 09 Jun 2024 14:00:51 GMT
Could Knicks steal standout Kansas freshman in 2024 NBA Draft?
[Fadeaway World] – Sun, 09 Jun 2024 11:00:00 GMT
Grade The Trade: Lakers Get Julius Randle, Knicks Acquire Lauri Markkanen
[Heavy.com] – Sun, 09 Jun 2024 22:46:28 GMT
Knicks to Host Former 6th Overall Pick for Free-Agent Visit: Report
84 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.06.10)”
I’m torn. On the one hand, I loathe Kyrie, Jason Kidd, and Mark Cuban, can find Luka insufferable despite his genius, and don’t want to see the Mavs get rewarded for tanking so soon after they tanked (if at all). On the other hand, few things in sports are as insufferable as Boston sports fans when their teams win, and I am really not looking forward to a summer of them crowing about their umpteenth banner.
Sigh. Let’s get back to talking about prospects the Knicks might consider drafting, assuming Leon doesn’t roll over all three picks?
If nothing else Boston winning like this will end up with a Taytum is a fraud narrative that will annoy celtics fans. But there really are no good outcomes from this finals. Maybe if Dallas gets swept Luka will realize he needs to come play with a real PG who can take pressure off him
The “easiest path to a title ever” narrative may annoy Celtics fans, too, but only a very tiny bit.
The way I see it is let these guys get their title out of the way so we can go after them when their softer. After you win a title, things like luxury tax and second apron matter more. They’ll probably let White go down the road if they win this. They’re more likely to pay the repeater tax for him if they don’t.
Re: Boston cruising to a title.
This is why I was really annoyed with the injuries and Thibs lack of potential minimization strategies. This could have been our best window. We got the 2 seed and would have faced a Boston team without KP. Without rim protection and size, Randle, Mitch/iHart & OG would have had a field day on the boards while JB & Hart feasted on penetration with the old man protecting the rim.
Watch the series momentum switch materially if KP misses extended time and they shoot the three like they did last night. They are sure to address this weakness in the offseason.
Boston is a suburb of NYC. When I was in High School we used to debate those Boston Latin kids all the time. And I really enjoyed drubbing those cargo pants wearing future biotech nerds. Late night hotel parties were fun. What’s your value “the force” what’s yours “chocolate”. Fuck all yall policy nerds. But they are our suburb. Kyrie is a loathsome biproduct sput out by the cloaca of post truth media. May he suffer embarrassment and defeat on the world stage so that children learn not to be like him.
Director,
I get the annoyance but it’s also wishful thinking to think there is some alternate timeline where our team is fully healthy but KP is STILL injured for Boston. I mean, if there is an alternate timeline where our dudes are healthy then in that alternate timeline, KP might also be healthy. And fully healthy for both teams, I think we are still underdogs.
Randle was injured when there was plenty of time left in a regular season game because a Miami player decided at the very last split second to try and draw a charge. It had nothing to do with “fatigue.”
When Mitch initially got injured, Leon filed for an injury exception and was denied. The league fucked us on that.
Mitch was reinjured on a dirty play by Embiid. Bojan was injured because of a freak thing too.
Hart and OG you can argue did get injured because of fatigue but at that point with Randle, Bojan and Mitch down, how were we ever going to win any games without OG and Hart playing heavy minutes.
Even if everyone else is healthy, if Jalen fractures his hand like he did in game 7, we would not stand a chance against Boston.
Boston’s top-6 aren’t going anywhere next year and they will again be heavy favorites to go back to the finals no matter what the Knicks or any other EC team does. I doubt that they will have the somewhat lucky cakewalk that they are having this year, but their top 6 are as dominant as I’ve seen in the NBA since the Durant Dubs and Duncan/Kawhi Spurs. Alas, those kinds of teams tend not to result in only one championship.
“Are we still so sure Kyrie is better than Brunson?”
Well he certainly wouldn’t be playing any worse than Kyrie has during this series. Although he looked pretty terrible in games 1 and 2 vs. Philly and in games 3, 4, and 7 vs. Indy. But yeah, it’s fair to say that that take is not aging particularly well.
Not that I would trade our year for another, but it felt easier to stomach a Celtics banner when we were a sucky 23 win Isiah coached team than being the number 2 seed.
Interesting… https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=irvinky01&year_min=2024&player_id1=brunsja01&seasons_type=forall&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=brunsja01
I mentioned before the series that one of the interesting aspects of it was that Boston had terrific defenders like Holiday, White and Brown that were going to spend some time on Doncic and Irving. That’s not exactly the ideal matchup for Dallas. Boston’s best defenders are often guarding the main two scoring options for Dallas.
Doncic and Irving do most of the scoring for Dallas. So if Boston could slow them down or stop one of them, it was going to cause major problems for Dallas. It’s a bigger problem when KP is there protecting the paint for the times they beat the defense.
So far they are mostly just trying to make it difficult on Doncic. Since he’s such a good tough shot maker he’s getting his anyway. But they are slowing down Irving. We’ll see what happens in Dallas, especially if KP misses any time. Someone else may have to step up for Dallas. Who is the 3rd option?
I have no problem with this Celtics team winning a title. It’s been a hard-earned process: lost in the finals, humiliated by the Heat the next year, just kept tweaking their core. Good for them. (Is it over already? I thought we were still waiting for game 1 to begin.)
Melo’s son Kiyan scored 42 points in a game at the NBPA Top 100 camp. They’re picking the FIBA U-17 World Cup team from the camp attendees.
Thought y’all might like this Boston Globe snark headline:
“At long last, Kyrie Irving is finally helping the Celtics pursue an NBA championship”
I think Dallas’ 3rd option is either PJ Washington or the Gafford/Lively two headed monster.
Washington is ineffective because he’s not hitting his threes (like the rest of the Mavs). Boston’s size and length is shutting down the Gafford/Lively lob game.
Mazzulla press conference clips might be the best thing about the Finals
It just seems like Boston can get a key stop or hit a key 3 whenever they need to. Not just against Dallas, but against anyone.
On how many shots? 🙂
Ok, that made me chuckle….
Enough to kill the board, I reckon.
It is simply in my DNA to root against Boston. I find Kyrie Irving to be the worst kind of pseudo intellectual and wish I could derive more pleasure from him shitting the bed like this, but I can’t bring myself to view it as anything other than a solid silver lining. Hopefully the Mavs can at least take 2 at home, but they won’t if George Soros keeps making Kyrie play like Frank Ntilikina.
One thing I’ve discovered. Whenever I do a guided yoga practice and someone tells me to set my intention I always just make it sivasana. The payoff is pretty consistent.
Go with corpse pose, but please don’t become one. Article in the NYT today about how Montana has one of the highest suicide rates in the nation…
(For Clarence only:) https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/10/us/montana-suicide-guns.html
Who said Kyrie is better than Brunson?
Seems like you guys are gang banging a straw man.
walkerandbendercornerstones,
You’re mostly spot on. It would have been easier to accept if Thibs didnt have a history and if he did everything possible to minimize injury risk. Blaming him for everything is silly…I 100% get it, but so is not blaming him at all too.
I’m convinced that we had a legit shot at Boston without KP this year. So, – when the stakes are so high and window is so small, (we’re fans)…have to blame someone. Other than DDV, every starter was hurt by end of game 7. There is too much coincidence not to be pissed at someone for something. Lets hope we get #2 or #3 seed again this year.
There was virtually no circumstance under which Hurley was going to succeed there. So he’d have been taking the job to scratch the NBA itch, and/or just for the money. At a certain income bracket, that kind of turmoil just isn’t worth it.
And now I guess that JJ Redick gets to be the Derek Fisher to Hurley’s Steve Kerr in this scenario?
Haha, Lakers… even in the face of a Boston chip, at least we have this.
That said, I think Reddick will be fine. He might even be better at politically navigating that scene. But they will need a few new players to even pretend to make any noise next year.
I think we need to hear a Cdiggy take on all this…
you’d think with today’s grocery prices a guy would take a pay raise like that, but I guess there’s some value in having built the only fun offense in the whole NCAA
Word is Hurleys wife has zero interest in leaving Jersey ..
Ah yes, beautiful New Jersey and its courteous drivers… why would you ever want to leave it?
The Lakers situation is a no win situation for a first time NBA coach. They will not succeed next year. Unless, by some miracle, they draft and NBA ready, all star caliber player with their draft pick (do they even have one) that team is going nowhere. Lebron is too old. AD is also too old. The supporting cast mostly sucks. And when they inevitably fall short, everyone will blame him and Lebron will get him fired.
At least Kobe had the dignity to be on a shitty team with no aspirations his final season so he could jack up shots with no repercussions and do his final lap around the league on a team that didn’t matter. This pretending to still be on a contender schtick that Lebron is pulling now is so obnoxious. Retire already. And stay the hell away from The Knicks.
I like when the “BREAKING NEWS” is that there is no news to report.
Really interested to see what happens with the Lakers once Lebron finally hangs it up. They’ve been as poorly run as just about any franchise in the league for the last ~15 years but it has been largely obscured because of course Lebron wanted to play for the Lakers / live in LA. I could see them wandering the wilderness for a decade, but probably Luka will just demand a trade there.
I haven’t watched but from what I’ve read it sounds like Holliday dominates Kyrie for most of the game and then switches to Luka and dominates him, too. He could be the MVP of the series.
Damn Bucks, man.
That’s a really good point, Swifty. If LeBron wants to contend he should just go to the Sixers. Holding the Lakers hostage every year is kind of a dick move
5.5 M/year is a pretty nice consolation prize til you find a better situation to jump to the NBA.
There are 2 dignified paths an aging former superstar can take at the end of their career
Path one – they want to still compete and win a title. Then they take the veteran minimum or mid level and play for an already competing team as a role player.
Path two – they stay on the same team where they had their glory at their peak and collect their massive paycheck but they don’t expect to compete and demand the franchise gut their future for some slim chance of competing. Play the “mentor” role to young players and take your lap around the league with dignity on a losing team.
I think Hurley would take the Knicks job [much better location wise for him and his family] if UCONN doesn’t three peat and the Knicks get bounced in the first round leading to Thibs getting canned.
Lakers will probably draft Bronny in the 2nd Rd and keep LeBron but he should absolutely go to the 76ers
I think lifestyle matters most for Lebron now, I don’t see him wanting to play in a cold weather city over the sunshine of L.A.
I think once Hurley started dragging things out, he couldn’t possibly take the Lakers job and not look like a dickhead. Plus, this makes the Shams Redick story make a lot more sense, as the Lakers likely didn’t think Hurley was ever coming, but they tried to pull out all of their stops to try to get him to come. I mean, holy shit, $11.5 million a year as a first time NBA coach?!
No one did, per se, but the stats in the regular season and playoffs this year are closer than I thought….
Re: Warriors preparing to release Kevon Looney for tax-saving purposes:
https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1800248064361312729
Big time defender
I get the player type, but he has a lot of miles on those surgically repaired hips.
If the Knicks do re-sign iHart, we could still consider signing Looney and trading Mitch to save $10mm.
Random question: what’s a good contract for OG?
Jrue Holliday strikes me as the best comp for OG, and that’s being extremely kind to OG. (Jrue is better and more available.)
Jrue is at 4 years, $135MM. That seems fair for OG. Generous, even. But it also seems like he may get even more.
OG is a lot younger than Jrue.
Yeah but Jrue is a lot better at basketball. And OG’s brittle so that kinda negates the advantage of his youth. 34 y/o Jrue is a good bet to play more minutes than 27 y/o OG.
4/135 would be team-friendly but also fair. Anything above is going to hurt the balance sheet.
Jrue’s current contract is ~27% of the cap. For the 2024-25 season, that’s about $38M. The most we can sign OG for the first year is $42M.
Jrue’s 4/135 extension is a paycut and kicks in during the upcoming season.
I think the question of whether I would prefer OG or Jrue on Jrue’s current deal (meaning $38M with raises, not his extension) is very fair. I would be fine with either guy, probably leaning towards Jrue. He looks like he has at least 3 solid years left at his current level of play, and I agree that all things considered, he’s a better player than OG.
But OG might fill a bigger need for the current version of the Knicks. So while he is definitely going to get overpaid because of current supply vs. demand conditions in the NBA, I am more than OK with it. I don’t think that you can find a player as close to as good of a fit for this team as OG with the avenues we currently have available. And I don’t think it matters one bit how his game compares to Jrue’s, just like it didn’t matter one bit how Jalyen Brown’s game compared to anyone else when negotiating with the Celts. They overpaid Jaylen because they had to, and now it seems to be working out pretty well (in small part because Jaylen may have actually improved some since the extension was announced.) So you take your lumps with OG and move on to the next improvement that comes available. Hopefully by the end of his deal the cap has increased enough that he looks cheaper than he looks at signing. And hopefully he stays healthy.
Yeah but Jrue in his prime is not a reasonable comp for OG. Holliday was a starting PG with a 3.0 BPM every year. If we pay OG that kind of money we’re way overpaying.
I think there are two choices: overpay OG or let him walk. Since you already have invested IQ and RJ in acquiring him, option 2 is not really an option any more. He is a UFA so the Knicks don’t really have any negotiating leverage. The only reason that OG might settle for less than $35-40M AAV is if no one offers him that kind of money. I suppose it is possible that that happens, but I doubt it. Someone like Morey would be happy to overpay him, especially at the expense of a division rival. He would fit perfectly next to Embiid.
If you don’t want to pay OG what the market demands you pay, the reason has to be concerns about his injury prone-ness. But if you don’t, now you have to replace 3 players: RJ, IQ, and OG. I think if the Knicks were overly concerned about his durability, they wouldn’t have traded for him in the first place. The hamstring and elbow will probably be non-factors.
I perfectly get the notion of data driven decision-making. Makes total sense. However, the most important data point is won-lost record and OG is at the top of the heap when that is considered. Would I like to resign him for short money… sure… but it isn’t likely to happen. He has a pat hand and he has the right to play it any way he wishes. Leon cannot lose him for nothing or 30 cents on the dollar. But he knew all this when he made the trade , so I am guessing the parameters of a deal have already been worked out.
Leon is going to pay whatever it takes. I am not suggesting we draw a line in the sand and let him walk.
I’m just curious where the line between “good deal” and “sheesh” is.
I think it’s at Jrue’s deal for me. OG ain’t better than Jrue, even at age 34. So anything over that is probably the amount we’re overpaying by.
Jrue was most likely underpaid by an egregious amount during his prime because his contributions didn’t show up in the boxscore. His multi-year RAPM was top 5 in the league even on the not so great Pelicans teams. He probably should’ve received the max from a team.
I hated the trade the Bucks made that essentially swapped Jrue for Dame. It was a mortal lock the Bucks defense was going to take a huge hit. Even if the offense improved, it wasn’t like they were swapping from a bad offensive player to a great one. Jrue can score if he needs to. Fans and media (and I guess teams) wildly underestimate the impact a good defender (especially a versatile one like Jrue) can have on winning.
Dallas fans haven’t fully grasped that part of the problem Kyrie is having is that he’s being defended so well either. They are all whining about him playing badly without even considering the possible reasons why. He’s a great player and he’ll probably find ways to adjust, but it’s no accident he’s having a tough time against Boston so far.
All this $40MM talk is based on the idea that Morey would offer him the max but what if OG decides to test the market and Morey trades for Jimmy Butler or signs Paul George? What would you give OG if Morey was off the table, is what I’m getting at. It sure ain’t $40mm for me. I’d be looking at Jrue’s extension and Jaden McDaniels and paying him somewhere in the middle.
And OG has to be careful because that’s a very, very strong possibility.
lol
Idk, what’s a reasonable salary for a guy who can (relatively) shut down every top-ten star in the league except maybe Jokic? Plus, he’s exceptional at making corner threes. OG’s a pretty rare archetype.
Dude he’s not better than Jrue.
They’ll probably write something into OG’s contract that gives him extra money for over a certain number of games and/or minutes.
That’s kinda what I’m asking 🙂
Imagine you weren’t afraid of losing him to Morey. What do you think would be fair for him?
Yeah I mean in a sense, he’s our most irreplaceable player aside from Brunson, so we kind of have to pay him.
If you’re Minny and already have McDaniels in the fold, maybe you nickel and dime him, but plenty of other teams will pay upwards of 30 mil for him. 40 seems like a stretch though.
Let’s say Morey is in love with OG and offers him 40 per. That gives him 22 mil for eight other roster spots… maybe 23 if he trades their 1st. That’s really risky considering how many injuries affected the playoffs this year, especially because then 2 of your big 3 would be considered “fragile.” Just seems crazy.
What would you give OG if Morey was off the table, is what I’m getting at. It sure ain’t $40mm for me. I’d be looking at Jrue’s extension and Jaden McDaniels and paying him somewhere in the middle.
plenty of bidders above this level, not just morey. this would just be saying goodbye. this is the cost of ufa. jaden was rookie scale rfa and jrue was getting ages 34-37 guaranteed. fair ain’t got shit to do with it.
Uh oh:
https://nypost.com/2024/06/10/sports/thunder-could-seriously-complicate-knicks-isaiah-hartenstein-plans/amp/
Who else has $40MM to bid and is likely to see OG as their guy?
The source is Bondy looking for clicks. OKC isn’t going to go away from the 5 out offense they love to play with Chet at the 5.
I mean, who knows what OG will ultimately sign for, what he will be offered by other teams, etc.? What are we really getting at? That OG has a certain theoretical market value and that the Knicks may pay more than that, either because they are spooked or that there’s a very real offer out there? That’s pretty likely to happen, but so what? That’s life in an NBA front office. All teams deal with that kind of shit at some point or another. Boston just dealt with it with Brown. Ultimately, Brad just signed him to the max they could pay him, whether he was worth it or not.
At the end of the day, they will pay him whatever they think they have to in order not to lose him, erring on the side of overpaying him. This isn’t a situation where they will likely be bidding against themselves, like with Bargnani or Noah. It is reasonable to assume that Leon and his team will do their due diligence and try to schmooze OG’s team into taking the lowest feasible price possible without insulting him. I doubt that they are going to fuck around with anything that looks like a lowball offer. If I were OG’s agent and Leon, Gersson, WWW, or whoever started bringing up Jrue or injury, I’d politely tell them “we’ll get back to you” and start negotiating in earnest with other teams.
OKC at pick 12 will have a selection of centers they can draft. They really only need a center for spot minutes in the regular season and playoffs.
lots teams would jump on og for, say, 4/155 or better and consider the contract a likely asset even if the fit is imperfect. not just the teams that are already there like the pistons and sixers and okc, but teams who can easily get to the space like the spurs. it’s incredibly hard to get a genuine two way big wing in his prime who isn’t already under team control. his market will reflect that scarcity. this is moot because the knicks did not make this trade thinking they’ll only offer him between jaden and jrue. it’s whether they can get away with more than jrue but less than all of it. which, maybe.
What we think is “fair” isn’t the issue. The market sets the price… We only get to decide if we want to make an offer near the market, and even that doesn’t insure landing OG. He gets to determine where he wants to play among a group of offers he might field. By the CBA he has earned that right.
One thing in Leon’s favor is he seems to understand player value. Randle, Brunson, IHart, Jhart, DDV and MR were all signed to what turned out to be outstanding contracts from the team perspective. I guess being a player agent for decades does teach you something. He clearly wanted Donovan Mitchell, but had a price point he wasn’t willing to exceed.
The Knicks were 17-15 before OG arrived with Brunson and Randle playing almost every game. They were 26-6 (including playoffs) in the games he played. OG was 12-2 with Randle and 14-4 even without Randle (including playoffs). They were 14-16 in the games OG was on the roster but didn’t play.
This just shows he had enormous an , oversized effect on wins vs losses. How much is a guy worth when a team plays exactly .500 ball when he doesn’t play and is 20 games over .500 when he does. What is that guy worth. Its a nice academic exercise, but my initial thought is a fuckton.
Thanks for being the only person to answer 🙂
It’s a little higher than I’m comfortable with but you’re probably right.
The line between “good deal!” and “sheesh” is the same as the amount it takes to keep him vs. letting him walk. Once you accept that, the entire exercise becomes academic, unless you have a theoretical point at which you think it is better to let him walk, even with sunk costs considered.
So the only actually relevant question for posters is: where is the line between being okay paying him vs. preferring to let him walk? If you aren’t willing to draw a line in the sand, then there really isn’t a point to the conversation, at least until after things play out.
I also think that things tend to balance out. For example, Boston is theoretically overpaying for Brown but underpaying for Jrue and White. If we overpay for OG we are underpaying for DDV and Mitch.
If we’re guessing, I’m guessing that OG’s first year salary will be something like $37M, and the contract will be for 4 years with max allowable raises from that starting point and with a player option in year 4. There might be a slight discount over the max he can sign for with another team because he loves it at MSG, he loves his teammates, and he is CAA. But probably just a couple of million AAV at most.
I suppose that there is a possibility that he opts in to his player option and then extends for a higher amount, but that seems far less likelu to me.
I don’t see the point of discussing OG.
That trade would never have been done unless OG and Rose had already agreed in principle on him returning and on the price range to come back. All that’s left is the details. Again, if there’s a gap between them based on questions about OG’s injury record and OG’s market value, they can write something into the contract on games/minutes played as incentives. The price we pay is almost irrelevant (other than to Dolan). We are not at the stage where we need to worry about overpaying because it might hurt our pursuit of free agents. We are at the stage where we need the right players and movable contracts. OG is the right player and we aren’t moving him unless for some reason he wants out. We have contracts to move in a major trade. Who cares what we pay OG? More power to him.
Hartenstein is a more legitimate concern because someone could theoretically offer him so much more than our maximum ability to pay him he’d have to at least consider it. I just don’t see that happening though unless someone sees him as the final piece to the puzzle. He’s not that for OKC. He might not even start for OKC. Chet is their C of the future. He’s going to grow and fill out into the role.
I’d be happy at $35M/yr, so that’s probably too low.
I’d say $38M is fair, which means that’s also too low.
I’d be uncomfortable starting around $40M, so that’s probably around even.
Remember that time when the Knicks went to court to change the rules so that they could have Jeremy Lin’s bird rights, and they actually won their case, and then the Knicks GM said that they’d “match anything up to a billion dollars”, and then a week later the only Knick to entertain the fanbase in a dozen years was a Houston Rocket?
I guess the message here is, life in the NBA front office is filled with surprises.
Chet Holmgren finished second in the rookie of the year voting to an ungodly generational talent — and finished over 200 points above the third place finisher (who’s going to be an all star very soon).
I’m struggling to imagine iHart going somewhere he’ll get 15 minutes a game as a backup. Maybe that’s me.
Maybe it’s a smart move on OKC’s part in case Chet snaps in two. But even matrimonial discord aside, I’m having trouble seeing it without it being a transformational bag.