Knicks Morning News (2024.06.04)

So, what, we’re doing like a Super Bowl break before the NBA Finals now? Is this hype week or sumthin’?

And why’s there two days off between every game? Did Porzingis’ doctor make this schedule?

One possible factor for 2 days between games is not having the NBA final on same night as Stanley Cup final.

Probably had at least something to do with two short conference finals series….

Dereck Lively’s LEGO collection makes me happy we traded that pick.

A surprising amount of grown men play with LEGOs deep into adulthood these days, ess-dog. Although as noted LEGO aficionado Myles Turner would be quick to point out, they’re actually “building” with LEGOs, not “playing” with them.

I went with my son (when he was 4) to the SoCal home of one of my business partners and it was loaded with LEGO creations. The two of them instantly hit it off. He was 32.

Not to drag up the debate from yesterday that devolved into pettiness, but the thing that all contenders seem to have in common are GM’s who were able to pull off hugely lopsided moves that set them up nicely for contender status.

Golden State was able to draft Curry but also Curry got hurt and they were able to extend him after his rookie contract for what ended up being a super below market value contract.

Celtics were able to fleece Brooklyn for a shit ton of picks when they traded them Garnett and Pierce. Same with OKC trading Paul George. They got a ton of picks and also Shai, their franchise player.

Are we contenders yet? Not quite. Although healthy I think we were. But Leon signed Brunson. Stealing him away in the first place was a huge coup. But the contract he signed him too ended up being a huge steal too.

Denver found Jokic in the 2nd round. Bucks found Giannis in the second round.

Then you have teams that got high lottery picks that turned into superstars. Maybe they explicitly tanked or maybe they just sucked. But Minny got Antman. Dallas fleeced Atlanta in trading picks to grab Doncic instead of Trae. But for every team that got a top pick that turned into a star there are more that have had top picks multiple years in a row but never draft a star.

Riley drafted Bam late in the lottery then pried Butler away from Philly. Philly processed to get Embiid. Lakers lured Lebron and traded for Davis.

End of the day whether you tank or process or hybrid or whatever. You better make a move that lands you a superstar and even better if you’re able to pay that superstar below market value and make other lopsided moves that give you extra picks, etc…to fill out the roster.

So I don’t know if it’s really about one method being better than another. OKC is certainly set up nicely but nothing is guaranteed. If we win a title next year and then end up sucking after that while OKC contends for the next decade but never wins it all, I’m pretty sure we’d all be ok with that outcome cause banners hang forever.

I missed out on the OKC discourse from yesterday, but one thing I thought of while scrolling through it is that their rebuild around SGA was kicked off by a Godfather offer from the Clippers.

Remember, they were a 49-win team with PG and Westbrook! Their plan was to contend. How many teams in the 50 win range trade their best player and start another rebuild? In hindsight the decision to blow it up looks obvious but if a team in a bigger market did it, it would’ve been scrutinized to all hell.

I’d also forgotten that they didn’t start tanking until two years after the SGA trade. The season after, Presti traded Westbrook for Chris Paul and picks, and they still won 44 games and made the playoffs. Then he traded Paul, strip-mined the team, and the Thunder went 22-50.

The passage of time might smooth out the narrative to “Sam Presti foresaw that he needed to rebuild around SGA,” but reviewing what actually happened, it looks more like “Sam Presti was extremely opportunistic in taking advantage of the Clippers and Rockets being desperate for their choice of second star to pair with their franchise player, and was ruthless enough to blow up two playoff teams to do so.”

He didn’t initiate the PG trade. But I think he was willing to do what few other GMs would do in his position — treating his team’s place on the win curve as a sunk cost to make a lopsided trade happen.

When Presti traded George, he didn’t target SGA. He basically had to trade George to the Clippers and just took everything the Clippers had in their cupboard. One of the pieces happened to develop into the best guard in the league. Luck, as usual, is the real difference maker, which makes it kind of funny that we spend so much time discussing who is good and who is not.

Giannis went 15th overall – not a second rounder. Although with how unbelievably skinny he was I am surprised he went that high.

All methods of team-building require the execution of shrewd moves and luck. The competition is too stiff for anything else to be the case. An OKC-style asset hoarding strategy just gives you a much larger margin for error, so if you’re going to forego that you better have a damn good reason.

As I see it, Leon’s purported damn good reason was that keeping the team decent-to-good while he accumulated the assets he could accumulate without tanking would make it more attractive to free agents, trade targets, etc. The verdict on that is still TBD, but I’m much, much closer to buying it than I was the day we hired Tom Thibodeau.

Finish the job!

When Presti traded George, he didn’t target SGA. He basically had to trade George to the Clippers and just took everything the Clippers had in their cupboard. One of the pieces happened to develop into the best guard in the league. Luck, as usual, is the real difference maker, which makes it kind of funny that we spend so much time discussing who is good and who is not.

Presti is skilled but a lot of this is involved. He didn’t target Shai as a future MVP, he took what he could get. If Shai doesn’t elevate to MVP status OKC is a high end Utah with a boatload of picks waiting 5-10 years for that cache of picks to come to fruition.

SA had a generational player in the Admiral, who was kind enough to tear an ACL at the moment when another generational player is available in the up coming draft. Now SA was expertly handled drafting Manu and the Frenchman, but it was luck that put them over the top.

Most of us were lucky to be born in America or another liberal democracy in the 20th century and not Mali or Myanmar. We aren’t all that special. Luck plays a role in success.

Doug, one thing that the KB community is united about is that Presti is at the very top of the executive ranks….one of the very best, if not THE best executives in the business. Most of us look past the fact that he made one of the worst moves ever made by an executive, one that probably cost his franchise at least one championship and possibly more. Nobody’s perfect! And just about everyone would swap out Leon for Presti in a heartbeat.

What KBers do not all agree on is the merits of different overall approaches to rebuilding. Folks can sugar-coat past arguments all they want, but from the moment Leon hired Thibs, signaling that he was going all-in on remaining competitive while rebuilding via draft, trades, and free agency, i.e the “hybrid method,” some folks were convinced that it almost certainly wouldn’t work, or that in order for it to work, it would require both a threading of a needle that Leon probably didn’t have the experience or the ability to thread, and a ridiculous amount of luck. When some here, like strat, defended the methodology and suggested that it was far more about “winning transactions”, they were met with polite dismissiveness at best, but usually worse. And every hiccup Leon made along the way unleashed a chorus of “I told you so!’ in one form or another. Blips became disasters. Suboptimal draft day moves became incinerations. Terms like “canary in the mine” “purgatory,” “mezzanine,” “rudderless mess,” “rinse and repeat,” were all used to sum up the failings of both Leon’s FO and his chosen methodology.

And now that we can look back, it seems pretty clear that even with as a novice prone to rookie mistakes, and there were plenty of them, Leon’s execution of the hybrid methodology worked quite well! In four year’s time, the team has been to the playoffs 3 times, has 2 all-NBA players on well below market deals, has a stockpile of first rounders, has at least some cap maneuverability, and has zero albatross contracts.

Is this a vindication of strat’s general premises about rebuilding? I think so. But even if folks thinks otherwise, it would be nice if they at least permanently tabled the dismissiveness.

When some here, like strat, defended the methodology and suggested that it was far more about “winning transactions”, they were met with polite dismissiveness at best, but usually worse.

This was of course not because the statement itself isn’t true. Just the opposite–it was because the statement is so obviously true, but also so obviously vague, it doesn’t advance any discussion. It’s like saying a coach should see to it that his team scores more points than the opponent.

No matter what larger method you use to assemble a team, you have to “win transactions.” Valuable contributions require one to say what those transactions should be, or at least articulate some broad ideas.

“We’ll be fine if we win transactions” is pretty much a textbook truism.

The thing I objected to was Strat pointing to OKC and saying “See, I was right!” He gets to point to the Knicks and say that, but not to OKC.

I don’t want to drag Strat here— I like the guy and actually agree with him about things a good amount of the time. He’s an affable and likable person. I really can’t stress this enough.

I’m taking exception to the idea that “win deals” is a strategy that exists. It is not. It is something you hope will happen as you pursue success. Every GM who makes every transaction is hoping to “win deals.”

I’ve always favored the asset hoard rebuild, because when it’s done correctly you end up with a long window of contention, home grown stars, and hopefully lots of flexibility once you achieve contention. It doesn’t always work out that way, but now that OKC has made it you can see the upside. Leon Rose didn’t do it that way, and that’s fine! He did a good job overall. Not perfect but pretty damn good. I’m not like E over here pretending the team sucks.

It’s just weird to me for the main advocate here of the hybrid method— who was vindicated by the Knicks’ success, mind you— to use the success of the asset hoard team to say “I was right.”

Presti and Morey have been regarded as the new age smart analytical GMs who do it the “right way”. They’ve each been a GM for 17 seasons and between them there’s been 1 trip to the NBA Finals and 0 championships.

Not saying they don’t know what they’re doing, shit before Rose got here I would’ve killed to have either Presti or Morey as Knicks GM. But it is funny to me how they get lauded for how they build teams as if their way is the best and smartest but forget about NBA championships they can’t even win Conference championships.

GMs don’t put the ball in the basket. You can be great at your job and not have a title to show for it. That should t really be the barometer. The barometer should be contention vs wasting time and space in a competitive league.

Personally, if I was GM, I’d try to get good players on good contracts and avoid getting bad players on bad contracts. But that’s just my own personal team building philosophy. I might write a book about it someday.

Leon signed JB, iHart and DDV. Those three moves erased his earlier mini blunders.

Swift, oddly enough that book should be mandatory reading in some places.

Come to share a slap down between one of my favorite people and one of my least favorite people:

Smith, ESPN’s $12 million per year man, was debating McNutt about Clark when Smith said, “Who talks about the WNBA? Who talks about women’s sports more than ‘First Take?””

McNutt sounded as if she was trying to be as respectful as possible to Smith, but she could not help but throw down a dunk over him.

“Stephen A., respectfully, with your platform you could’ve been doing this three years ago if you wanted to,” McNutt said.

Smith looked as if he had been hit with a left hook, forced to say, “Wow.”

Presti made 17 first round picks between Harden and Chet. The best players he drafted were Steven Adams, Cam Payne, and Reggie Jackson.*

Picks he traded away on draft night over that span: Sengun, Bledsoe, and IQ.

He failed to win a championship with one of the most talent loaded rosters ever assembled, trading Harden for Jeremy Lamb.

Presti is smart in his own way, I’d love to have him, but he hasn’t been some draft savant, he’s just bound to get lucky based on sheer volume.

*As far as I can tell, draft night trades usually get listed on the other team’s page and I don’t care enough to dig through every draft

They’ve each been a GM for 17 seasons and between them there’s been 1 trip to the NBA Finals and 0 championships.

Facts!! – Math builds to maximize regular season wins. This is why I said yesterday that Presti can flirt with 70 wins by adding a 3.7 BPM, 4.7 EPM and WS of .204 26 year old player that doesn’t overlap with others but fills a specific team need. Never said Presti would win championships.

I look at teams like Cleveland that are built with supplementary players whose parts are way better than the whole and can’t help but shake my head.

On the the other spectrum, everyone saw what OG addition did in January. OG is great at exactly the thing NY needed most + dumping inneficient RJ helped maximize JB and Randle’s output. It was a pure math play by Gersson Rosas.

Only difference between Leon/Rosas and Presti/Morey is that NY seems to value grit and dog mentality a lot more and that’s needed come playoff time.

Presti is smart in his own way, I’d love to have him, but he hasn’t been some draft savant, he’s just bound to get lucky based on sheer volume.

Yes, but this is the whole point of the asset hoard: if you acquire enough darts, you’ll hit the bullseye enough times that failure becomes almost impossible. If you have lots of darts you can vary your approach, take more risks on high variance players. You’re scrambling the risk/reward ratio because you’re mitigating the risk part. That pick didn’t pan out? No problem. Got dozens more of picks to spend, maybe the next one pans out.

The barometer should be contention vs wasting time and space in a competitive league.

100% agreement here. I personally think Pat Riley is the best POBO/GM, and would still think so if Shaq/Wade lost in the finals and the Heatles lost all their finals. And if so, he would now have a different HC, which I think is the most important decision any GM makes and owns.

This was of course not because the statement itself isn’t true. Just the opposite–it was because the statement is so obviously true, but also so obviously vague, it doesn’t advance any discussion. It’s like saying a coach should see to it that his team scores more points than the opponent.

In a world in which Isaiah Hartenstein is seriously considered and talked about as a top-25 — or even top-12 (!!) — player because of things like his “EPM,” occasionally reiterating “obvious” truths is all to the good.

In terms of Presti, solid GM obviously, and in his one interaction with Leon absolutely took Leon to the cleaners. (Not second guess, first guess.)

Facts!! – Math builds to maximize regular season wins. This is why I said yesterday that Presti can flirt with 70 wins by adding a 3.7 BPM, 4.7 EPM and WS of .204 26 year old player that doesn’t overlap with others but fills a specific team need.

There’s literally no sense in which the “math” of basketball and these metrics work this way.

In a world in which Isaiah Hartenstein is seriously considered and talked about as a top-25 — or even top-12 (!!) — player because of things like his “EPM,” occasionally reiterating “obvious” truths is all to the good.

iHart is not a top 12 or 25 player player. He’s elite and efficient on a specific skill which impacts winning and it just happens that OKC is weak at this exact thing.

Is OG a top 12 or 25 player? – Obviously, not even close but his value is between $35m and $40m aav + 31st pick + IQ. To think that Presti handing iHart $25m aav an extreme everpay is just silly.

I guess, will know on July 1st. – TBD.

Respectfully, JK and TNFH, I think you are missing what strat’s main point was over these years, and suggesting that it boiled down to “win trades” is the kind of dismissiveness I’ve been defending him against.

As I understood it, his larger point has always been that methodology is a distant second to execution, and because of that, there was way too much ado about Leon choosing to prioritize being reasonably competitive over strategic draft positioning and renting cap space. His point was that either overall strategy….whether it was Presti not caring a lick about win totals or Leon/Thibs prioritizing wins right out of the box, could be similarly effective, so long as it was executed properly, and by that, he meant “winning transactions.”

And what Strat seems to be saying now is that even though Presti and Leon have employed significantly different strategies with different short-term priorities, both been successful for the same underlying reason…they won lots of transactions.

That pick didn’t pan out? No problem. Got dozens more of picks to spend, maybe the next one pans out.

So OKC didn’t really process/tank as much as they asset hoarded. And I think it’s worth asking how realistic this approach is for most teams. Because not every team can assett hoard a billion first round picks like OKC has.

Like how often can a team trade someone like Paul George for a billion picks plus a future all-star franchise player? We see these types of trades happen but they are almost always when a team wants a very specific player to catapult them into “contention.” Put in quotations bc clippers have never actually contended, lol.

But these types of trades are relatively rare. I mean, put another way…if The Knicks offered up Brunson right now to the highest bidder, would there be a team that would offer 5 or 6 picks plus a young player who is going to be a future franchise player? We’d probably get a good haul for him but would we get a haul like OKC did for George?

howdy KB folkses 😊

I hope everyone is well…summer has started, not too hot yet out here in so cal…

goodness help me, but I think I might actually be rooting for the mavs these finals…

it should be a competitive series…

I think presti has done well in okc…particularly given the market and ownership…

over the last decade or so, I’d would’ve probably preferred to root for okc more so than philly…

is it story time yet?

always has been, will be my favorite part of knickerblogger…

tell me something I do not already know…por favor…

I mean, put another way…

Swifty, I think the key difference is that OKC were happy to take a billion picks (and a key unknown quantity in Shai) where we (and others) would at least an want some immediate quality player or two.

you’ll hit the bullseye enough times that failure becomes almost impossible.

But he did fail despite having 3 players on the NBA’s 75th anniversary top-75 of all-time list. That’s gotta be the only time that’s happened except for cases involving injury or age.

He’s so bad at evaluating talent that he traded away Harden for Jeremy Lamb and Kevin Martin just so he could keep Serge Ibaka.

He gave up the pick that landed Sengun for 2 picks that a vocal part of the board considers ashes.

The supporting cast for Jalen, Chet, and SGA is underwhelming because he keeps chasing unicorns.

They should still win a championship but it’s because Kawhi demanded PG and SGA happened to be one of LA’s only young assets.

And what Strat seems to be saying now is that even though Presti and Leon have employed significantly different strategies with different short-term priorities, both been successful for the same underlying reason…they won lots of transactions.

OK fine, but that’s utterly meaningless. “Do good things and not bad things” is not analysis, and you don’t get to claim victory when “do good things” is proven to be true. Wow, that team made good transactions and now they’re good! I’m totally vindicated!

Is that not just a tautology? Are we really debating here whether “winning transactions” is the key to success? Having good players is better than having bad players, what a completely bold statement! Incredible insight.

I don’t recall anybody saying winning with the hybrid method is impossible. Pat Riley has always rightfully been used as an example to prove that the method can work. Leon Rose is doing a much better job of it than I thought he could, given his background as an agent and lack of experience. I’m duly impressed. It’s just very strange to be acting like “win transactions” is a meaningful insight.

The supporting cast for Jalen, Chet, and SGA is underwhelming because he keeps chasing unicorns.

They should still win a championship but it’s because Kawhi demanded PG and SGA happened to be one of LA’s only young assets.

“Presti isn’t very good at evaluating players but OKC should still win a championship” seems like a pretty robust endorsement of the asset collection strategy to be honest.

As I understood it, his larger point has always been that methodology is a distant second to execution, and because of that, there was way too much ado about Leon choosing to prioritize being reasonably competitive over strategic draft positioning and renting cap space.

Once again, “any strategy can work if you win transactions” is just not a novel insight. No duh!

If one never actually identifies said winning transactions, it gets very tired as a response to doubts about any given strategy e.g. the hybrid method.

Person 1: “The hybrid method really narrows a team’s margin for error, I wish we would pursue a complete rebuild to avoid having to deal with that.”

Person 2: “You fool! The hybrid method can work if you win transactions.”

Do you see how Person 2 here is not wrong per se, but is not contributing to an insightful, interesting discussion?

In a world in which Isaiah Hartenstein is seriously considered and talked about as a top-25 — or even top-12 (!!) — player because of things like his “EPM,” occasionally reiterating “obvious” truths is all to the good.

Who’s talked about Hartenstein as a top 25/top 12 player? Are they in the room with us right now?

I mean, other than yourself because you desperately need to discredit all stat-based discussions so you can instead talk about player’s “moxie”.

Person 1: “The hybrid method really narrows a team’s margin for error, I wish we would pursue a complete rebuild to avoid having to deal with that.”

Person 2: “You fool! The hybrid method can work if you win transactions.”

Yes, but the opposite approach – tanking, etc…maybe it opens up your possibilities and gives more room for error but it also opens you up to staying at the bottom forever. This is the downside of tanking/processing, etc…that no one who wants to do that will ever acknowledge.

The NBA is littered with teams that have sucked for YEARS, accumulating high lottery picks, drafting the “best” prospects and have still gone nowhere.

OKC didn’t tank. They cashed in some players for a boatload of picks and got a player included in one of those trades that ended up being an MVP level player. With hindsight the Clippers would not throw in Shai 10 times out of 10 times if they got to do that trade over.

This was of course not because the statement itself isn’t true. Just the opposite–it was because the statement is so obviously true, but also so obviously vague, it doesn’t advance any discussion. It’s like saying a coach should see to it that his team scores more points than the opponent.

I was more than willing to accept criticism on the vagueness, but there was no way to be specific when you don’t know who is available, at what cost, and whether they would be willing to play in NY for a bad team. Only management knew.

The thing about “winning the trade” is that it’s equally true no matter which path you take. The words just change. It’s the same as saying “just pick the guy in the draft that will develop into star or superstar”.

Back then most were were much more forceful in their criticisms. They were implying it wouldn’t work, it was a terrible idea, and we should tank.

As you were saying earlier and I said yesterday, no matter which way you go it’s going to come down to competence and luck. My point being back then, don’t dismiss trades and free agency as a valid part of an accelerated path to contention because you CAN do great deals and get lucky that way too with competent people in charge (as we see with this Knicks team). But no one wanted to hear that because were locked into “tanking is the only really good way”.

I mean shit the year we “tanked” we ended up with RJ, not Zion or Ja, and that was purely luck.

The years we drafted Knox and Frank…people will say we should have tanked from the beginning those years but we basically pivoted towards a tank both of those seasons before the all-star break. And both years we ended up picking later than statistically we should have. AND, we ended up making horrible picks. I mean there’s a world where Leon inherits a team with Ja and Bridges already on the team.

The irony of this argument is that asset hoarding requires winning trades so it would seem JK47 and Strat have been on the same side the whole time.

The irony of this argument is that asset hoarding requires winning trades so it would seem JK47 and Strat have been on the same side the whole time.

It’s almost as if this has been a dumb argument the whole time.

I’m not saying it’s a bad strategy, I’m saying that Presti is bad at it. Its success has more to do with Kawhi than Presti. Arguably it has more to do with Kawhi than the strategy itself because SGA came over in that trade.

Presti was smart enough to realize the team of veterans he had was not good enough to win a title, didn’t have enough upside to win a title and he was at a disadvantage in free agency and trades when it came to getting players to commit to OKC long term. So he correctly chose to cash in some chips, try to extract as much value as possible in his trades and start over. With the same team in LA he might have taken a different path. If the players were a little younger he might have taken a different path. It wasn’t about the path. It was about what he had on his team, his market, and his ability to execute and make winning deals.

It’s almost as if this has been a dumb argument the whole time.

Your contributions to it have been incredible, though. Truly, you’ve made me laugh out loud several times.

There is quite a bit of rewriting history going on here btw. Most of these arguments had to do with Phil Jackson, not Leon Rose. Noble and JK47 to the best of my recollection never derided Strat’s method so much as they joked about his inability to articulate it beyond “win trades.”

Context is key, of course. And while they might have been mean, one should recall that Strat was delivering these diatribes on team-building while telling everyone they were all stupid and that only he and Phil Jackson knew the right way to build a team.

Nevertheless I’ve always been partial to Strat’s method, and I actually wish Leon Rose would finally get around to trying it. Because so far, he’s done absolutely nothing that Strat advocated for.

We’ve made several trades that have worked out well for us, of course, but every trade we’ve made the other party has walked away pleased as punch. The Strat method would be getting Josh Hart for a 2nd round pick.

The irony of this argument is that asset hoarding requires winning trades so it would seem JK47 and Strat have been on the same side the whole time.

Absolutely.

My only point has ever been that we shouldn’t dismiss non tanking approaches because if done well, they can accelerate a rebuild.

You don’t have to tank and hope you draft Brunson, OG, I-Hart J-Hart, Randle, DDV etc.. Someone else can draft them over years, develop them over years, and you can trade for them or sign them as they are getting ready to peak if you are smart enough to recognize the best values, are willing to use draft picks and young drafted players as assets, and you manage your cap well.

And I can just as easily say you can win tanking if you accumulate enough picks, do so in the right years, do well in the lottery, and select well.

We weren’t really on the same side, unless you buy into the useless bromide that “winning transactions” means something. It doesn’t. Turns out we agree! We both believe in winning transactions! Who’d a thunk it? We’re way smarter than the “we shouldn’t win transactions” bunch. In your face, “lose transactions” people!

There’s literally no sense in which the “math” of basketball and these metrics work this way.

I’ll try it one last time and then leave it alone. In addition to OG example of immediate impact, see KP to Boston because KD to Warriors was an obvious one. However, “the math” is very similar. Players brand name and/or prior achievements are less relevent and they distort perseptions and humans create own biases.

Nico Harrison included a 2nd round pick to dump KP for a bag of chips.

An elite advanced stats EPM/BPM impact player was added to a 57 win Boston team that lacked the exact skill set this incoming player offered and the team finished with 64 wins while resting and cruising through the season. Could have easily flirted with 70 wins, – if they were younger, early in their careers (OKC) and actually wanted to make 70 a goal.

A much more valid criticism of what I was saying back in those days is that I liked Courtney Lee and thought we could trade him for a pick. 🙂

The funny thing is that I still think Courtney Lee was a pretty good team player and spacer but that contract became unattractive when the cap didn’t grow quite as much as expected and he got hurt and declined.

“I don’t recall anybody saying winning with the hybrid method is impossible. Pat Riley has always rightfully been used as an example to prove that the method can work. Leon Rose is doing a much better job of it than I thought he could, given his background as an agent and lack of experience. I’m duly impressed. It’s just very strange to be acting like “win transactions” is a meaningful insight.”

Actually, what was said that building a legit, sustainable contender via the hybrid method was highly improbable, to the point of it being idiotic. This was especially true given the roster Leon inherited when he took over, meaning the worst roster in the NBA (I believe TNFH called it that, no?). You and others had zero faith that Leon could pull off the hybrid method specifically because the types of transactions you needed to win to make it succeed would not be available to make! Even if you won what you continuously referred to as “paper clip trades”, the best you could do would be to be in purgatory or the mezzanine. Strat’s antogonists, you among them, felt that the odds against acquiring the top-shelf talent necessary for contending via non-lottery draft positions, or a blockbuster trade, or a big-name free agent, were extremely low…and even lower if you weren’t stockpiling assets for when they did become available. Free agency was actually pronounced dead!

Lo and behold, Leon acquired Brunson, iHart, and DDV via free agency, and stole OG because of pending free agency and because he had the assets to get him without compromising additional ways to improve. The only two remaining rotation players we drafted are Mitch and Deuce…and somehow we still have a contender full of young talent and good contracts with plenty of assets in reserve!

It was said that Leon’s entire strategy rested on either getting Jokic-level lucky (or at least Giannis-level) outside of the top-14, or was predicated on a superstar not only demanding a trade, but demanding a trade specifically to the Knicks, but that the idea that a player would choose to specifically come to the Knicks was nonsense. You and others specifically pointed out how all champions in recent memory had at least one superstar and that most of those were acquired via the draft or via supposedly-dead free agency. All of those preconceptions turned out to be either dead wrong or irrelevant.

But I acknowledge that you never said that it was “impossible,” so kudos for that.

To be clear: “paying market price for a premium player” has never been the Strat method.

Making lopsided trades is the method, and the only lopsided trades we’ve been a part of so far are The Incineration and the one where we traded out of the lottery for a bag of dicks.

We weren’t really on the same side, unless you buy into the useless bromide that “winning transactions” means something. It doesn’t. Turns out we agree! We both believe in winning transactions! Who’d a thunk it? We’re way smarter than the “we shouldn’t win transactions” bunch. In your face, “lose transactions” people!

Come on man.

It’s the same as saying just tank, win the lottery and draft a superstar.

Teams win and lose deals all the time.

Teams make good and bad selections in the draft all the time.

The point was and still is, you CAN win trades and sign free agents to good value contracts and build a contender. We just did it despite some errors along the way (which I also said were inevitable and OK as long as they weren’t fatal like Noah).

Just so need to clarify something. Presti and Morey have failed at team-building because they haven’t won a title; Rose has won at team-building because we made the 2nd round of the playoffs. Do I have that correct?

The point was and still is, you CAN win trades and sign free agents to good value contracts and build a contender. We just did it despite some errors along the way

The irony of this conversation, Part 2:

We actually haven’t done it yet.

There’s a lot of premature “Leon Did It” energy going on here. We still have the hardest part in front of us right now and the method we took to get here could prevent us from going forward.

Sam Presti doesn’t have to pay Jalen Williams $40MM just to keep him next year, you know? Nor does he have to sweat someone stealing Chet Holmgren from him this summer.

We’re a very long way from there yet. As the Wise Ess Dog would say, it’s almost as if this has been a dumb argument the whole time.

And again, Leon really didn’t do anything all that spectacular during these four years. The Brunson heist is balanced out by the Hali whiff. He hired an old school retread coach. He drafted some decent role players. He signed and then ran back some low-ceiling mercs. He signed two free agents who Thibs permabenched. He almost became the sucker in the Spida sweepstakes. He signed some mid-level free agent hustlebunnies. He traded out of draft slots in suboptimal fashion. He made a few non-blockbuster trades that some here feel were significant overpays. And he probably whiffed on some golden opportunities both in the draft and in trades.

And yet here we are! Go figure!

Leon has been at it for 4 years. How long have Morey and Presti been at it?

Leon’s done a really nice job considering where he started from and who the teams owner is. He’s been much better than I expected.

We actually haven’t done it yet. There’s a lot of premature “Leon won a chip” energy going on here….

No a single soul has said this strawman argument. Many have said in four years he has taken the primer laughing stock franchise in the league and made the playoffs 3 of 4 seasons and won 50 games while having no bad contracts and excess picks. Many would give him a solid B for his work so far. No one has claimed him to be Red Auerbach or Jerry West or Pat Riley.

I don’t think anyone is saying “Leon did it!” More like “Leon has significantly exceeded the ceiling that folks put on him as recently as two years ago, and most of his detractors have come around and can now see a path to him doing it!”

JK47 I don’t want to speak for you but I always thought you were talking about the best way to win a championship. I’m not gonna lie, when I read last night that you should “just shut the fuck up and take the L,” I had a hard time remembering that you said no one can build a 50 win team that plateaus in the 2nd round through free agency.

This was posted literally within the last 30 minutes:

Actually, what was said that building a legit, sustainable contender via the hybrid method was highly improbable, to the point of it being idiotic. This was especially true given the roster Leon inherited when he took over, meaning the worst roster in the NBA (I believe TNFH called it that, no?). You and others had zero faith that Leon could pull off the hybrid method specifically because the types of transactions you needed to win to make it succeed would not be available to make! Even if you won what you continuously referred to as “paper clip trades”, the best you could do would be to be in purgatory or the mezzanine. Strat’s antogonists, you among them, felt that the odds against acquiring the top-shelf talent necessary for contending via non-lottery draft positions, or a blockbuster trade, or a big-name free agent, were extremely low…and even lower if you weren’t stockpiling assets for when they did become available. Free agency was actually pronounced dead!

Lo and behold, Leon acquired Brunson, iHart, and DDV via free agency, and stole OG because of pending free agency and because he had the assets to get him without compromising additional ways to improve. The only two remaining rotation players we drafted are Mitch and Deuce…and somehow we still have a contender full of young talent and good contracts with plenty of assets in reserve!

It was said that Leon’s entire strategy rested on either getting Jokic-level lucky (or at least Giannis-level) outside of the top-14, or was predicated on a superstar not only demanding a trade, but demanding a trade specifically to the Knicks, but that the idea that a player would choose to specifically come to the Knicks was nonsense. You and others specifically pointed out how all champions in recent memory had at least one superstar and that most of those were acquired via the draft or via supposedly-dead free agency. All of those preconceptions turned out to be either dead wrong or irrelevant.

But I acknowledge that you never said that it was “impossible,” so kudos for that.

Presti was smart enough to realize the team of veterans he had was not good enough to win a title, didn’t have enough upside to win a title and he was at a disadvantage in free agency and trades when it came to getting players to commit to OKC long term. So he correctly chose to cash in some chips, try to extract as much value as possible in his trades and start over.

Westbrook asked to be traded. So did PG. Presti did a great job in getting a ton back for them. The reason he got such an incredible haul for PG was because Kawhi made signing with the Clippers contigent on them also getting PG

As I said this morning, Presti was opportunistic enough to trade away a top-10 player on a 49-win team when he received a godfather offer of assets from a Clippers team who was willing to whatever it took to sign Kawhi. Blowing up said 49-win team was a reactive move.

JK47 I don’t want to speak for you but I always thought you were talking about the best way to win a championship.

Yes, exactly. And I think that’s still true. Who has a better chance to win a chip in the next five years, us or OKC? I think you’d have to be pretty myopic to suggest that it’s us, or that it’s even close. The only thing standing in OKC’s way as I can see it is San Antonio putting enough talent around Wemby before OKC can start collecting chips. I mean, who knows, things could go wrong and they could be beset by injuries and all the other common sense caveats that come with their position. But they’re set up VERY well to do some real deal contending for quite a while. This was just their first playoff attempt with this core.

I’m happy with where the Knicks are because they are no longer a laughingstock and are at least in the mix. They’re now a normal team that could have gone farther than the conference semis this year with better injury luck, and that’s nothing to sneeze at. But are they real deal top tier contenders as duly constituted? Maybe. I’m not completely sold on that. The Knicks still have SOME flexibility to improve this core, but not as much as an asset-rich team like OKC has to improve theirs.

COULD this Knick team win a championship? I mean, I can squint my eyes and kind of see it. And that’s not nothing!

Presti is 8 years removed from the last time his team has gotten beyond the second round, after he had the head start of a roster with 3 future MVPs. Kinda strange that this is the first time his team has made it to the second round in 8 years.

Leon started with the worst roster in the NBA and four years later is neck-and-neck with Presti…but hey, they have Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren so a string of finals appearances is imminent!

(Kind of interesting that the guy who just said we plateaued in the second round is also saying that even without Randle, OG, and Mitch, we had enough to take out the Pacers and advance.)

“The only thing standing in OKC’s way as I can see it is San Antonio putting enough talent around Wemby before OKC can start collecting chips.”

Denver, Dallas, and Minny all seem pretty set for the next couple of years. I don’t see any cakewalks to the finals any time soon. But are they better positioned than the Knicks? They sure should be!

Seriously, I wonder what the conversation here would be like if we had a GM that started out with 3 MVP-caliber players on a finals team and for the next decade only got beyond the second round once.

Never mind, that GM would obviously have been long gone.

Let’s try a subject we haven’t argued to death: Tyler Kolek. A lot of mocks are directing him to us, and I know a lot of you like his fit here. I don’t watch college hoops, so all I know is what I’ve read in scouting reports by people like Wasserman.

So two questions:

1. Why do you like his fit with this team? He’s shorter than Deuce; could they play together as a bench backcourt? Can he defend well enough to stay on the court to Thibs’s satisfaction?

2. If he’s as good as everyone seems to think, why would he potentially be available so low in the draft? Is it just the short point guard thing?

I’m happy with where the Knicks are because they are no longer a laughingstock and are at least in the mix. They’re now a normal team that could have gone farther than the conference semis this year with better injury luck, and that’s nothing to sneeze at. But are they real deal top tier contenders as duly constituted? Maybe. I’m not completely sold on that. The Knicks still have SOME flexibility to improve this core, but not as much as an asset-rich team like OKC has to improve theirs.

COULD this Knick team win a championship? I mean, I can squint my eyes and kind of see it. And that’s not nothing!

Couldn’t agree more. It’s a fine place to be, and I’m impressed with the work Leon did to get us here. I’m not nearly as impressed as others are, but I will be if he pushes us through this ceiling.

The knock on Kolek is that he is not super athletic. He’s a below-the-rim player that does not have a lot of burst, but has succeeded in college ball because of his skill and tenacity. He is, basically, a hustlebunny. He can shoot, and is an excellent passer. The question is whether or not he’s going to get devoured by NBA defenders. As a defensive player he seems to try hard but is limited once again by that lack of athleticism.

I think he’d be a no brainer pick for us despite all of that, because he’s 23 and a relatively finished product, and has a good chance to stick in the league as a backup PG.

2. If he’s as good as everyone seems to think, why would he potentially be available so low in the draft? Is it just the short point guard thing?

I think it’s just positional value. Most teams want a potential starter with their first round pick. Everyone seems to think he’s a really good backup PG but no one seems to think he could actually start.

Z-Man I don’t expect everyone to have THCJ level proficiency when it comes to searching the archives, but if you’re going to purport to quote people like this I think a citation is necessary. I definitely expressed doubts about the hybrid method as well as a preference for Hinkie-ism, no doubt. I do not recall saying I had “zero faith” Leon could build a contender (which is still very much TBD, to be clear).

Here’s the thread from the day after Brunson signed. We debated this stuff ad nauseam and all my comments seem to align with what I just said. I strongly supported the Brunson signing, but remained deeply skeptical about the hybrid method, with the caveat that I’d happily eat my words if Leon built a contender with it.

I will still happily do so if that happens!

Can we send out a bat signal for djphan? I’d love to get his take on Kolek.

Damn it, Noble! You just served up a Thanksgiving turkey for the troll after the subject had finally changed.

I think Kolek could fall to us (though it’s far from certain) because teams think, rightly or wrongly, there’s very little upside left. They think they’re basically drafting a career backup point guard. Most teams want to take bigger upside swings than that in the draft.

I’m higher on him than the consensus though, and think his fit on this team is pretty clear. He is a prototypical point guard, the likes of which we don’t have on the roster at all currently. The dude also plays his ass off on defense, so while he’s limited by his size I don’t think the situation would be so bad on a nightly basis that Thibs sends him to Fournier Island.

Obviously in the playoffs and/or other high-stakes games, everything changes and he could find himself benched. Such is life as a late first-round pick.

I would never root for a catastrophic injury, but I would point out when it seems like one could be imminent:

BOSTON — Boston Celtics center Kristaps Porzingis said Tuesday that “the plan” is for him to be available in Game 1 of the NBA Finals against the Dallas Mavericks, but he was still wary of how his leg will respond.

“That is the plan right now,” Porzingis said of playing Thursday. “Again, it’s a couple more days, and I think that could make a difference. Every day gives me a bit more time to get even better.”

Porzingis has been out since suffering a right calf strain five weeks ago, in Game 4 of the Celtics’ first-round playoff series against the Miami Heat. He returned to at least some portion of practice Friday and participated fully in a light session Saturday.

This sounds like Kevin Durant 2.0. That was also a calf strain, if you recall. And it was also five weeks before the finals.

Then again, the NBA graciously scheduled six extra days of rest in this Finals, so who knows.

Kolek is short with no length, can’t turn the corner on faster defenders, and many question if his outside shooting is for real. And he’s hella old.

At #25, I’m sort of ok with that but would rather take a gamble on someone with more upside and stash him at Westchester for a year and just give the backup PG keys to a guy like Kris Dunn/Cam Payne.

I think the Koleck to the Knicks is also influenced by people comping him to Brunson and then saying well Brunson’s on the Knicks so they’ll love this guy that’s like Brunson

Gotta say, I come off as pretty wise in that day after we signed Brunson thread, lol.

Jaylon Tyson is kind of like the wing version of Kolek IMO, and I’m higher on him than the consensus too. He’s decidedly unathletic and his numbers at the rim aren’t what you want for someone his size, but part of that is because he posted up a lot in college (to some success) and he makes up for the lack of burst with a lot of craft.

Good shooter, good passer, and switchable defender at 6’6.” Here’s the Sparknotes.

Would love to come away with Kolek, Tyson, and a Sims replacement at 38.

The chances of us making either of our first-round picks are slim to say the least, but if we do make a pick, I would still be alright with selecting Dunn and then teaching him to shoot.

People can learn to shoot! They can’t learn what he does on defense, though.

I’m also officially intrigued with Bub Carrington, and Ighodaro would be a perfectly cromulent Sims replacement in round 2.

“Win transactions” isn’t close to as “tautological” or “uninteresting” as it’s being accused of being but that said, it leaves out the association indispensability of a tentpole superstar. Very difficult to hybrid your way into that, but it looks like Leon might have lucked into it.

And people are in fact jumping the gun with the “LEON DID IT!!” stuff.

I love the idea of Dunn but he screams “Next Justice Winslow” and will be unplayable on offense. I don’t see the fit next to Hart on the 2nd unit. I saw some lowlights of his shot and it will probably take longer to fix than we want.

I’m not enthusiastic about Kolek. Doesn’t seem like his bag will work at the NBA level. I don’t see the extreme craftiness of Brunson, who is actually more athletic than he appears. Kolek seems below the backboard, let alone below the rim. If he’s a poor man’s Brunson, I’d prefer more of a change-of-pace guy, either a TJ McConnell pest type or a bigger more athletic combo guard. As smaller guards go, I’ve only taken a cursory look, but I like KJ Simpson a little bit. Honestly, none of the PGs that might fall are all that intriguing to me.

In searching for potential sleepers, one guy that stood out a little bit is Zyon Pullin. Probably a whiff, but I like aspects of his offensive game, has a little Buddy Hield in him.

“Maybe. I’m not completely sold on that.”

Perfectly legitimate take. However, here’s what I see:

A monstrous, frightening two-headed center tandem that will just destroy many teams on the boards, completely block off the rim, and who somewhat play to each other’s shortcomings (e.g., put one on Joel, play the other at the end of close games).

An elite All-NBA power forward who can make his own shot anytime he wants and just obliterates defenders, rebounds like a bear, and is a high assists guy, too.

A elite defensive tarantula who can close off passing lanes with a flick of his extendo-pedipalps, totally frustrate and shut down star wings while driving, scoring, and hitting threes. Backed up by a psychopathic hustlebunny who is a rebounding monster and whose shot is coming around (and who can play the two or the four).

An admittedly somewhat streaky two who when on can catch fire like few other NBA players and who is a constant, nonstop irritation on defense.

An All-NBA point guard and MVP point-getter who can get his shot off — and make it — pretty much whenever he wants, regardless of where he is on the floor or what the defense throws at him. Backed up by a defensive whirlwind who has come around to making his shots from all over.

So as you said, maybe.

“Very difficult to hybrid your way into that, but it looks like Leon might have lucked into it.”

Kind of like Presti lucked into SGA…or did he know after his mediocre rookie year that he’d become a legit MVP candidate and better than Paul George ever was? Did Lawrence Frank know that?

“Very difficult to hybrid your way into that, but it looks like Leon might have lucked into it.”

Kind of like Presti lucked into SGA…or did he know after his mediocre rookie year that he’d become a legit MVP candidate and better than Paul George ever was? Did Lawrence Frank know that?

Was Milwaukee lucky that 14 teams passed on Giannis?

Was Boston lucky that Philly thought Markelle Fultz was worth trading up for? And that the Lakers thought Lonzo was better than Tatum?

Was Dallas lucky that Phoenix, Sacto, and Atlanta were too dumb to realize that Luka was a generational player?

Was Toronto lucky that the Spurs fucked up the Kawhi situation?

Was Miami lucky that LeBron decided to take his talents to South Beach?

Was Pop lucky that his franchise won the lottery in year featuring a generational center for the third time?

There’s always at least some luck involved in a leap from mediocrity to contender. You still have to fill out a roster.

Here’s a new topic:
How short sighted is JJ if he truly wants to be a coach to take that job? That is a road to nowhere.

“Z-Man I don’t expect everyone to have THCJ level proficiency when it comes to searching the archives, but if you’re going to purport to quote people like this I think a citation is necessary. I definitely expressed doubts about the hybrid method as well as a preference for Hinkie-ism, no doubt. I do not recall saying I had “zero faith” Leon could build a contender (which is still very much TBD, to be clear).”

Not sure what you are taking issue with. I didn’t put zero faith in quotes, so it was meant to paraphrase your general take. Do you want to specify what your actual definition of “highly skeptical” is, in the context of your posting on that day (let alone when we missed the playoffs, Mitch was still unsigned, and Brunson was still a theoretical move that I think you felt Cuban would probably not let happen). Was it a 5% probability? 10%? Would “near zero” make you feel better?

At the end of the day, your posting on that day pretty much speaks for itself regarding how we felt about Leon’s chances of building whatever it is we have right now (seems like there’s room for disagreement as to how close we are to having a sustained contender.), as does mine. I feel pretty good about how my takes have aged. If you need to take a bow for pointing out that I said zero faith instead of virtually no faith, very little faith, or whatever. I suggest that, as a lawyer, you read all of the posting carefully and judge it in terms of who an impartial jury would side with on the general merits. I’m pretty confident it how it would turn out.

@donnie walsh…so…are you going to tedeschi trucks?

I have tickets for here in phx on the 11th…

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40270945/nba-finals-2024-boston-celtics-vs-dallas-mavericks-how-nico-harrison-mavs-landed-dereck-lively

I am not much of a draft analyst, but my intuition is that all the mock drafts out there are likely to be bad at predicting the Knicks’ pick. By their nature, mock drafts take each team’s needs into account. The Knicks are considered to need a backup point guard and Kolek fits the bill. But what if the Knicks just go after the best player available? Kolek is probably not that. And the Knicks have shown by their recent actions that they are willing to load up on players that they think are good even if there seems to be some duplication.

I love the Kolek blurbs as much as the next guy but I’m with KFNINJ here. Just let the scouts do their thing and take the best player available twice regardless of current fit or position.

“I love the Kolek blurbs as much as the next guy but I’m with KFNINJ here. Just let the scouts do their thing and take the best player available twice regardless of current fit or position.”

I agree with this, with the caveat that if they decide that no one is worth drafting and want to kick the can down the road, I am okay with it. I can understand others not being okay with it, but this is a really murky draft.

I’m not high on Kolek. His ceiling’s too low. If he struggles out of the gate, he’s toast.

Kendall Marshall was another prototypical point guard prospect + nondescript athlete, and he was out of the league within four years.

JJ Redick coaching the Lakers is going to blow up in spectacular fashion. I think his inner competitor has blinded him to the fact that he is not ready to be a head coach and that LA is also the worst possible situation for a first time head coach. It’s a shortsighted decision for him. Unless maybe he thinks his broadcasting career will benefit in the long run and it’s worth the inevitable pain and suffering.

Personally, I’m disappointed because this means the end of the Mind the Game podcast, which I really liked.

Kind of like Presti lucked into SGA…or did he know after his mediocre rookie year that he’d become a legit MVP candidate and better than Paul George ever was?

I think the big big difference between Pristi “lucking” into SGA and Leon “lucking” into Brunson is that Pristi didn’t need SGA to be a superstar for his process to succeed. He had lots of picks and had SGA simply been a good player instead of a great one they would have still been on a positive path just not as far along. But if Brunson hadn’t transformed into a superstar we wouldn’t have a ton of paths to getting one and our path to contention would still look pretty grim.

I would look at Leon’s tenure as story of a two halves. March 2020-June 2022 and July 2022-Present.

March 2020-June 2022 was horrible. Kemba and Fournier, Obi over Haliburton, trading picks in back to back drafts, it was rough. There were very few positives about his first two years. Since then however he has been very good. The Detroit trade aside, Leon has made many very good transactions and very few bad ones. Brunson, DDV, and Hartenstein in free agency, Hart and OG in trades, plus resigning Mitch and extending Deuce.

If he keeps up these smart moves I will fully become a believer. I think this offseason will be the moment. If he nails this summer I will be fully there with him. Even if he simply manages to weather this summer I will be happy. If he punts our picks or makes a bad trade for a aging star or does anything to shorten our window in pursuit of his white whale I will be very disappointed.

Randle at the Yankees game tonight.

with the caveat that if they decide that no one is worth drafting and want to kick the can down the road, I am okay with it. I can understand others not being okay with it, but this is a really murky draft.

I would be ok with it this year. It’s highly unlikely a talent like Jalen Johnson is going to fall to 25. Hell it seems like even Keon Johnson would be a lottery pick in this draft.

But he’s got to turn it into a legitimate future first. Indiana got a top-5 protected pick from Denver last year, so none of this top-18 protected BS.

I like Kolek okay. I don’t think he is my first choice because of his age and lack of physical tools but I can see a path to him being a productive NBA player. His passing is really good and he plays hard. But I doubt if he is even a better prospect than Rokas.

For centers that could slide to us, I like Ware best but also like Holmes II and Filipowski. I like both Tyler Smith and Bobi Klintman as young tall forwards that while both raw could develop into good 3andD players in a couple years.

I think Dunn is the player I want the most of the people mocked to us, he has absolutely elite defensive upside and while it’s possible he could never develop offensively his upside potential if he ever does is through the roof.

If I’m doing the draft I am looking for a large wing and a center.

Larger wings:
Dunn
Smith
Da Silva
Klintman

Centers:
Ware
Holmes II
Filipowski
Missi

Then possible 2nd round picks:
Scheierman
Djurisic
Edwards
Tyson

I don’t really want Eddy, George, Shannon Jr., Carrington, Furphy, or really any smaller guard unless they are a home run prospect that slips. We have enough players under 6’5″ and we don’t need to add more.

More than anything I want to walk away from this draft with at least two promising players and anything less would be a disappointment.

“I think the big big difference between Presti “lucking” into SGA and Leon “lucking” into Brunson is that Presti didn’t need SGA to be a superstar for his process to succeed. He had lots of picks and had SGA simply been a good player instead of a great one they would have still been on a positive path just not as far along. But if Brunson hadn’t transformed into a superstar we wouldn’t have a ton of paths to getting one and our path to contention would still look pretty grim.”

I disagree with this. I think you are vastly underestimating how different the team would be without SGA in the fold. The most important reason why OKC is even relevant right now is SGA. Without him, they are a play-in team, maybe with promise, but not nearly as much. They would definitely be worse than we are right now.

Now I agree that Brunson is even more important to us than SGA is to OKC on paper. But one of the things that Leon has accomplished is removing the stigma that the Knicks are a dysfunctional clown show laughingstock. He did that even before acquiring Brunson.

“If he keeps up these smart moves I will fully become a believer. I think this offseason will be the moment. If he nails this summer I will be fully there with him. Even if he simply manages to weather this summer I will be happy. If he punts our picks or makes a bad trade for a aging star or does anything to shorten our window in pursuit of his white whale I will be very disappointed.”

That’s totally fair, but doesn’t that apply to OKC as well? Or Philly? Or Cleveland? Or Minnesota? Lots of teams are in similar predicaments, or just were, or soon will be.

Which is to say, no one (certainly not me) is suggesting that the job is done. There are still moves to make, but for a change, we actually have the assets to make them.

A few years ago, it wasn’t a question of whether the Nets would win a championship, it was how many. They were arguably the best team in the NBA, and we were arguably the worst. Now we are considerably better positioned than they are. And it happened in a flash.

We are in a great position right now, undoubtably the best position since the Ewing days. Seems like even Leon’s most ardent detractors are coming around. Hopefully the best is yet to come, and there’s ample reason to believe that it is.

I agree with much, but not all of what you are saying. In my opinion, you are significantly underrating how difficult Leon’s task was right from the start. Whether you like Thibs or not, not only making the playoffs, but getting home court advantage in a year where the team was expected to finish with the absolute lowest win total is a massive accomplishment.

There were egregious errors, and you pointed them out. Can they be chalked up to inexperience? yes, but even experienced GMs make similarly egregious errors.

Donnie, I’m not a big blues fan and I’m not all that familiar with the music of Tedeschi Trucks but we’re having such spectacular late spring weather here and an evening out at the Greek is probably going to be fantastic if you’re a fan.

“But he’s got to turn it into a legitimate future first. Indiana got a top-5 protected pick from Denver last year, so none of this top-18 protected BS.”

Agreed, again with the caveat that it likely won’t make all that much difference. But what I’m anticipating is a trade-up. Maybe they package two or even all three picks to move into the teens and snag a player with at least some upside. There seems to be a significant drop-off after pick #18.

I am just not all that invested in this draft, especially because I think that due to lack of expansion, the league is saturated with talent and some players better than anyone in the latter part of the first round might shake loose for minimum make-good deals. If iHart and OG extend, and Mitch and Julius come back healthy, I’m less concerned about how to fill out the non-rotation spots.

JK, you might want to spend 8 minutes with this.
Always thought of her as Bonnie Raitt on steroids.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=Tedeschi%20Trucks&mid=A90842CBB8FA0BD3355EA90842CBB8FA0BD3355E&ajaxhist=0

Or this, the second half which has some nice guitar work (to me, who’s an ignoramus on the topic):

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=Tedeschi%20Trucks&mid=A7364C5327636B99B2F8A7364C5327636B99B2F8&ajaxhist=0

I thought the finals started tonight. What the hell is the league waiting for? Everybody outside of Boston and Dallas has forgotten about this season already and has moved onto graduations, baseball, and the WNBA.

@donnie walsh…so…are you going to tedeschi trucks?

I’m not sure yet. Admittedly, like JK, I’m not all that familiar with Tedeschi Trucks per se. I’ve seen Derek play with the Allmans and he was amazing, and I’ve liked (even loved) some of the songs of the Derek Trucks Band. But, yeah, if it’s all blues, which it may be, then I don’t know. A whole evening of I IV V may turn stale a bit too early, despite the weather.

That’s totally fair, but doesn’t that apply to OKC as well? Or Philly? Or Cleveland? Or Minnesota? Lots of teams are in similar predicaments, or just were, or soon will be.

I agree but it’s mainly I don’t fully have faith in Leon yet. I need a good summer, or at least not an actively bad one to believe he has truly turned a corner. The trade deadline was so bad it shook my confidence a bit but it’s hard to argue with Brunson, IHart, DDV, and OG all in a year and a half and I can look past one bad trade deadline if he follows it up with a solid summer. If he turns around and fumbles this summer as well, especially by repeating past mistakes like ignoring the draft or failing to bolster our bench then I will go back to being worried that maybe he hasn’t learned and the good moves were simply outliers and not evidence of actual improvement.

But I like where we are and I like our team. Even if he hasn’t learned and I end up wanting him gone I still give him credit for our turnaround and I am grateful.

The idea that wanting to win now somehow makes the draft less important is stupid and shortsighted. Dallas, Miami, OKC, and Indiana all had rookies playing meaningful minutes in the playoffs. Almost every good team has 2nd and 3rd year players in their rotation and it’s often the best place to find depth once you are over the cap. It might take a year or two for players to be ready but good teams stay good by constantly using the draft to bolster their rotation. If we want this team to be sustainable we need to think more than 1 season ahead.

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