[ESPN] – Wed, 21 Feb 2024 21:55:00 GMT
- Knicks’ Julius Randle (shoulder) progressing, doesn’t rule out surgery
- Julius Randle injury update: Knicks star doesn’t rule out surgery, but says shoulder is ‘getting better’
- Knicks have a lot of things to ‘still improve on’: Jalen Brunson
- Knicks Notes: Randle, Anunoby, Robinson, Hartenstein, More
- Knicks need to get healthy first, but a run to East finals is possible
[New York Post] – Thu, 22 Feb 2024 01:28:00 GMT
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- Sixers may have Nic Batum back Thursday, Robert Covington in a few weeks
- Examining the many rotation questions ahead for Nurse and the Sixers
- Sixers expect key returns on horizon as post-All-Star team takes shape
- Full injury report for De’Anthony Melton, Sixers vs. Knicks at home
[The Knicks Wall] – Wed, 21 Feb 2024 13:07:41 GMT
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- Falcons, Hawks, Braves among world’s most valuable sports franchises, Sportico says
[NorthJersey.com] – Wed, 21 Feb 2024 22:52:30 GMT
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[ESPN Press Room] – Wed, 21 Feb 2024 08:06:57 GMT
ESPN Full Court Press: JJ Redick Makes Debut with ESPN’s Lead NBA Broadcast Team for Saturday Primetime Matchup Between Boston Celtics and New York Knicks
[Heavy.com] – Wed, 21 Feb 2024 14:25:17 GMT
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[Sportsgambler.com] – Wed, 21 Feb 2024 12:42:04 GMT
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58 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.02.22)”
Going to start the day off on a sour note. I’m pretty down on the injury situation. We pretty much just got the rug pulled from us on our best season in years. I’m not optimistic about Randle’s return nor his performance when/if he does. I am surprised there’s not more consternation around here about that.
I tend to agree. I’ve been squinting and hoping that enough pieces would come back and soon enough to course correct back to where we were in mid Jan. Add Burkes and Bogey to that team with time to integrate them somewhat gently and you’ve got a really exciting team. I think we’d have made it a contest for the 2/3/4 seeds and been heavily favoured in at least round one with a decent path to ECF.
Now it feels like the absolute best case is treading water and hanging on to the 4/5 seed, getting healthy enough entering the playoffs to be back up to speed and then making some noise when we get there. Still not a terrible outcome but it could also be a fair bit worse than that.
I would say that if OG comes back soon, I think Brunson, OG, Donte and I-Hart can hold down a pretty good record with the supporting cast and maybe we pull through better than I think. But we’re not going far in the playoffs without full-strength Julius.
It also makes evaluation of the team and understanding a good path in the offseason/ahead of the next deadline much harder.
I was thinking quite a lot about our team building path over the last few days. It feels like JB and OG are locks in our lineup for the next few years. That means improvement in the starting 5 is either at the expense of Donte, Julius or our two-headed centre monster. It doesn’t feel like any of the candidates is really at C so let’s assume PF or SG/wing.
If Donte’s leap is real, you’re talking about improving on one of two very good players. If it’s a PF you have to assume Julius is traded – so you’re maybe paying an all star, plus a salary, plus picks and getting – what – Towns? Is the jump from Julius to Towns enough to justify the cost?
Whereas if your new star is a wing/SG, you can much more realistically move Donte back to the bench and everyone else down one rung. The jump is from whoever drops out of the rotation to whoever you bring in – theoretically way more scope to create actual improvement. So my conclusion is that unless it’s Giannis, it probably has to be a guard/wing type we’re shopping for.
Who might become available on that group who really moves the needle? Mikal clearly. Not Mitchell for me – too much redundancy with Brunson and questions over defence. Who else? Interested in who people think we might target, and whether the logic holds…
cgreene, I, for one, have had consternation since the injury took place. My kid’s shoulder was broken down by the repetitive stress of hitting a volleyball. She played in pain for years and was never really 100%, but avoided surgery and has no pain in all ofher aspects of life. So over the years, I have done tons of research on the structure of the shoulder joint and associated injuries, treatments, etc. I think the shoulder is the single most complicated joint in the body. There are numerous components, and a ton of ways for things to go wrong. The two most common things we hear about are the labrum, which is essentially a cartilagenous cup for the ball of the shoulder, and the rotator cuff, which is a complex array of soft tissue and bone that keeps the shoulder intact and functional.
As soon as Randle came up with a limp arm and holding his shoulder, I knew that the best case scenario was a dislocation, but that even that meant that there were almost certainly associated injuries to the labrum and rotator cuff. There is simply no way to pop a tight shoulder out like that without tearing something. If it were, athletes would be dislocating their shoulders all the time.
So for Julius, it became a question of the degree of damage. What I’ve learned is that you can play through a minor labral tear. Because we’re talking cartilage, like meniscus tears in the knee, these tears do not heal on their own. However, if the tear is minor enough, and there are no complete tears of any of the essential rotator cuff tendons, you can tighten up the shoulder enough so that it is “functional,” thereby postponing the need to go in and repair the labrum. But generally, this is not a “good as new” situation. My daughter had a slight tear on the top of her labrum, and muscled through it by being extremely dedicated to weight training and PT, but it was sometimes tough to watch. The good thing was that the pain and weakness would dissipate quickly and in a few days she was back to relatively full strength.
That seems what Julius is trying to do…tighten up the joint enough to minimize (but not eliminate) the risk of reinjury and maximize range of motion. In a way, that was the best case I envisioned at the time of the injury. Being that he is even trying, and the reports are that things are going well, I’m pretty optimistic that he will give it a go, probably sometime in late March. But at the very least, my guess is that he will have to play through pain, probably significant pain, for the rest of this season and playoffs. It’s his off arm, but that only matters with shooting. I’d be shocked if he is at 100% at any point before the off-season.
So the only residual question for me is whether he will need off-season surgery. Shoulder surgery is also not a “good as new” deal, especially with the labrum…most high-impact athletes lose some capacity permanently. But being that he’s not a pitcher, quarterback, or volleyball hitter, it probably won’t affect him much…he will be close to 100% recovered for the way he uses his shoulder, maybe with some residual soreness, but otherwise fine. The recovery time from surgery is typically 3-6 months, so if he is going to have the surgery and be ready for start of next season, the earlier the better.
So long story short, yeah, I’m bummed that this happened at this time, and yeah, it could put a lower ceiling on this season. But that we’re even talking about a possible return gives me some solace.
But that we’re even talking about a possible return gives me some solace.
I feel pretty much the opposite. If it was virtually any other player I would agree with you. We know Julius prides himself in playing through pain and his style of play is so physical that re-injury risk is high. He also needs his beast-mode spurts to be an effective player and we know from the start of this season that he needs a lot of reps to get to that stage. Get the surgery done ASAP and come to training camp more fully recovered and without the risk of needing a more significant surgery. Also has the benefit of preserving trade value should he be part of an off season package.
Julius is going to have surgery on that shoulder. The only question is whether, if he tries to play this season, the Basketball Gods will be nice to him and not have it pop out before the season’s over. It’s significantly more prone to popping out again now that it’s popped out once.
But come the 2024-25 season opener, he will be playing with a surgically-repaired right shoulder. This is a virtual certainty.
It’s also very possible that he won’t try to play this year and will instead get surgery.
I agree with that. I simply can’t believe he is going to come back 100% from that injury without surgery.
As much as I would love Randle to come back, there is a part of me that thinks he should just shut it down and get surgery.
I just would hate for him to play in the playoffs and injure it even more OR not be one hundred percent and not play well and then all the Randle haters will be out in full force for another season talking about how he can’t perform in the playoffs.
And if he gets surgery and misses the playoffs and we end up still doing really well, then I would be more than fine if the team decided to trade him. Or not.
I personally love the dude. I love that he chose to come here when no one else would and has been the guy who helped turn this ship around. I love his physical style of play in today’s soft league. I love that he is emotional, even if it gets him in trouble. I think his style of play has been huge to forging our identity as a tough, hard nosed team that no one likes to play against. I want him so bad to succeed in the playoffs. And the injury sucks because it does make evaluating what the next step is that much harder because the results this post-season, most likely, are going to be murky. I kind of hate that all the pundits are saying we can make the ECF bc if we don’t it’s going to be LOL same ole Knicks they were pretenders when we weren’t really at the contender level yet anyways.
So yeah, I’m bummed about these injuries especially with Randle. OG I’m less concerned about but also it sucks he went down when Randle did because we didn’t get to see what the starting five looked like without Randle but with OG playing a bigger role on the offense.
But hey, maybe OG can come back soon. Maybe Burks and Bojan can get integrated into the lineup and form a little chemistry with the second unit. And maybe Randle and Mitch can come back in time for the playoffs and give us something and maybe we still can make the conference finals. outside of Boston the east seems pretty wide open. Depending on who we face in the first and second rounds, the ECF is still a possibility even with the injuries if we can get these dudes back in time to get some games under their belt together before the playoffs.
If there wasn’t a realistic chance Randle could come back this season he would have already had surgery.
It’s largely bc the Knicks have been dicks about providing information. Most of the early reporting after his injury was cautiously optimistic but lacking real detail. They made it seem like Randle was going to be ok but it seems now like they withheld a lot.
After reading that Post article, I’m definitely consternated. It is also makes it seem like they got Bojan in large part bc they think Randle may not come back.
And I agree with Swift above. Randle sucks when he plays hurt, and his reputation can’t afford another lousy playoffs.
Healthy Bojan is better than the Randle we saw labor through the Cleveland and Miami series anyway.
I also get very strong we-could-be-better-in-the-playoffs-with-Bojan vibes. The idea of Brunson operating in a spread floor with three dead-eye shooters around him really excites me.
A lot of the reporting on Randle seems to be based on Steven Popper’s tweets/article, but if you actually listen to Julius’ interview yesterday, he is pretty confident about coming back this season and the main question seems to be about off-season surgery as a longer-term solution. This got mixed up in the reports, as Bondi is still speaking of the possibility of season-ending surgery. Of course this is not ruled out – how could it be at this point? – but I actually felt this was too much noise about very little.
Edit: I originally wrote Bondy, but it was Popper instead.
Edit2: you can hear Randle here – https://x.com/sny_knicks/status/1760370433893732673
We signed Jacob Toppin and Daquan Jeffries to 10-day contracts in order to meet the 14-man roster minimum. I look forward to them continuing to not play, no matter how injured we are!
Didn’t Steph Curry have a similar injury last season, missed only a few weeks and hasn’t needed surgery yet?
I’m as concerned about iHart as I am about Randle. That injury isn’t going away, and he could tear it and be out a year, complicating an already complicated situation.
Full health this is an ECF team. But we aren’t going to be at full health, maybe not even close.
Remember when Tanaka was sure to have TJ surgery and was better off getting it sooner rather than later?
I feel like the Randle discourse is going in the same direction.
I don’t think we know if it was similar bc the Knicks are keeping all the info to themselves.
Steph had a partial dislocation with no muscle tear. The Knicks have never said if Randle’s dislocation was full or partial. And they’ve never released any info about his labrum.
What they think they gain from withholding this information from the public is perplexing.
Old friend Jason Concepcion is delightful about the Knicks in today’s ESPN Daily. Nothing surprising, but he’s just a joy to hear.
Also, dislocations just can differ dramatically. It’s possible to have a shoulder pop out and get popped back in and only have some residual pain and related weakness for a few weeks (I had a friend have that happen back in the day), but as Z-Man and others have mentioned, there’s a lot of related tissues that can get damaged to varying degrees by this kind of injury. The Knicks are jerks about injuries, but this is one where it might still take a while to assess the true level of damage and what the needs are for repair.
It looks like Curry didn’t suffer a full dislocation.
We’re left to read tea leaves, and IMO the twins facts that 1) it’s been nearly 4 weeks and we’re still in the dark, and 2) we traded for a short-term replacement, indicate to me that this is definitely not a Steph Curry situation and it’s probably not going great.
I wouldn’t read too much into Bojan as a replacement. Maybe a security blanket, but not a replacement. To me, the main reasons to trade for Bojan were, in order, (i) the clear need for bench efficient scoring; (ii) need to roll out a large contract for a summer trade. The fact that he can play the 4 in Randle’s absence is a plus but not the reason for the trade.
“Remember when Tanaka was sure to have TJ surgery and was better off getting it sooner rather than later?
I feel like the Randle discourse is going in the same direction.”
TJ surgery involves a single ligament that has either completely ruptured or is hanging by a thread…totally different thing.
With Randle, there is obviously not either a ruptured ligament or massive damage to the labrum cartilage cup or supporting ligaments. If there were, he would already have had surgery.
Here’s a good article from 2021 regarding NFL players who had first-time dislocated shoulders (far more common in football than basketball for obvious reasons.)
My takeaway from this and many other articles is that it should be okay for Randle to delay surgery until the offseason, but that he will likely be better served by having some kind of repair once the season is over. He might choose not to, but those who opt out of surgery tend to have shorter careers. There does not seem to be a significant long-term risk involved in waiting until the offseason to have a procedure vs. having surgery right away. If he can tolerate the pain and stiffness in his off shoulder, he should be reasonably close to 100% effective.
It may also be the case that sports medicine in this surgical area has advanced since 2021, as it has with achilles repair (see: Aaron Rodgers). But from reading several articles, probably not much has changed. It’s a long recovery, but with a very high success rate of return to prior performance, except for throwing shoulders of pitchers and quarterbacks, who tend to permanently lose some zip.
We’ve needed a backup for Randle all year
Sometimes the world is uncertain
I don’t doubt the possibility that Randle will be able to take the court this year. I just don’t trust him to stay healthy and effective at all.
I don’t know, the new medical team is better than the old one. But based on viewing the injury and what I know about shoulders, it just seems highly optimistic to think Randle will be all-systems-go in the playoffs.
Which makes absolutely no long term sense to me because there’s no chance in hell they are a contender without Randle playing his best ball.
They gave up an asset like Grimes plus 2nd rounders to win an extra couple of games in the regular season and maybe win a round?
If that was the thinking That’s what incineration really looks like.
I don’t know what the probabilities are, but it seems reasonable for Randle to try to come back and then have surgery after the season.
We did until we got Precious.
Nope.
I do like this new schtick, though, where you say everything you don’t like is “what real incineration looks like.”
If Randle comes back but then has surgery in the off season, that’s kind of what he did with his ankle last season
If Randle comes back but then has surgery in the off season, that’s kind of what he did with his ankle last season.
The off season ankle surgery was a surprise, indicating it was either more serious than diagnosed, he came back too soon, or MSG hides things. This injury almost always requires surgery if you are an athlete. And when he came back it was clear he was hobbled or probably re-tweaked the ankle. There is no “re-tweaking” if he has another dislocation.
I’m thinking exactly what you’re thinking KfniNJ – this is the ankle situation part 2…
he may play this season, but…not the same kind of player until he gets it fixed and properly rehabs- see ya in six months…
Precious causes a bit of problems for us at the 4 since he is no threat from three. Once OG comes back I think he should be the 4 with Hart primarily backing him up and Precious should be the backup center until Mitch is healthy.
At this point in his career Bojan isn’t really a 4 either. He is okay next to Hart since Hart can cover up the rebounding but in that case Hart is essentially the 4 anyway. I think Bojan is battling it out with Burks and McBride for the backup 2-3 minutes.
It would be nice to still have Grimes because I think a starting lineup of Brunson, DDV, Grimes, OG, Center could have totally held down the fort until Randle was back.
I feel less good now. We either lose shooting with Hart or Precious in the starting lineup or lose defense with Burks or Bojan.
Your periodic reminder that “incineration” means — and only means — “a trade of an asset for an asset in the exact same asset class that is worth less.”
It is not a term synonymous with “stupid.”
I’m surprised you’re this upset about Grimes, Strat. His days as a Knick were numbered as soon as we brought in DiV0. He’s a decent young player, but hardly irreplaceable and the clock was ticking on his rookie deal. I thought we would punt on this season when Randle went down, but I think this trade check a lot if boxes in terms of keeping hope alive this year without hurting the flexibility to make additional moves.
“Your periodic reminder that “incineration” means — and only means — “a trade of an asset for an asset in the exact same asset class that is worth less.”
It is not a term synonymous with “stupid.””
It is totally synonymous with “stupid”, as in, it was a stupid word choice for the situation described above. Always has been. Always will be.
Facts! – Bojan will frequently collect DNPs – Coaches Decision.
I hate that we gave up Grimes for the contract benefit and a month (~15 games) of 20 minute off the bench production. (we lost first four games already anyway). A heavily protected late first should have been enough.
Was Grimes really giving us more than 20-minute-off-the-bench production at the point that we traded him, anyway? And was it *good* 20-minute-off-the-bench production?
I am going to incinerate this board unless Mike K sets up a filter to ban anyone who uses that word
At this rate that could mean you’re giving up the board to read a good book.
“I am going to incinerate this board unless Mike K sets up a filter to ban anyone who uses that word”
That sounds overly dire.
I gave up this board to play tennis every day of the week and now I have a hip V and more rich white woman tennis MILF associates than I know what to do with
guess who’s first on the list to be reduced to a heap of ash
If needed I’ll take some of those associates off your case THCJ!
“That’s what a real incineration looks like!”
Chef’s kiss gif here
nah dawg I may only have two hands but they’re quick, I can handle any volleys that come in sharp
Great to hear that tennis and non-posting helps you. Not sure about our vicariously ennobled studious bar exam flying passer.
Sort of a FU, in case not clear.
Time to visit THCJ!
Due to my association with said tennis MILFs, I largely stayed away from Sweet Princess Jowles during her bar prep and she scored a 330 (she had initially questioned if she had passed, lol). Her high score came with a price, and that was me coming home smelling like sweat and strange women.
That’s in the 1%, Jowles, so hat’s off to the Princess.
And take a shower, will you.
Maybe not an incineration, but I bet there’s some burning sensation
So I take it Sweet Princess Jowles is a new significant Jowles?
It’s not so much my love for Grimes as it is my desire for every trade to benefit us both short and long term or at least benefit us in one way and be neutral the other way.
I think the OG trade had clear cut short term benefits (setting aside the injury) and he’s also young enough to be part of the long term and possibly continue to be better than either Quick/RJ.
We need a backup PG that can score.
Burks and Bojan are old, not PGs and we already had the Fournier contract for a trade.
Burks and Bojan will benefit us short term because of the injuries, but long term I’d rather have Grimes and the 2nd rounders. If Grimes had no future here or wanted out, I’d rather trade him for another asset (whatever the market will offer) than send him out for a couple of old men. We may not be contenders even with Randle at 100%, but without him we can forget about it. So what was the point other than to win a few extra games this year and get KO’d anyway.
Now if you told me everyone is coming back 100% in time for the playoffs, then it looks like an all in move for this year that I could at least live with, but I question that 100%.
I haven’t seen Strat this hot since we failed to extend Frank. I like the trade now because we have a near all NBA player in Brunson and we might as well take a shot while he is in his prime. Speaking of Frank, when I went to the Hornet game the PA announcer kept pronouncing his name Nit-li-kina. It was kind of sad.
The Knicks communications on the injuries is such a finger in the eye of the fans. They do it because they hate the press. But the real losers are us. 🙁