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[New York Post] – Sat, 30 Dec 2023 04:35:00 GMT
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[The Athletic] – Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:30:59 GMT
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[New York Post] – Sat, 30 Dec 2023 05:36:00 GMT
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[New York Daily News] – Fri, 29 Dec 2023 21:08:16 GMT
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[USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire] – Sat, 30 Dec 2023 08:50:00 GMT
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74 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.12.30)”
New York @ Orlando L 108-117 Record 17-14
Short edition today, as the worst quarter of the year sank the Knicks chances in a physical and sometimes ugly game.
Down by 20 they trimmed it to 5 but were unable to get closer than that*.
Many players (and one coach) had a bad game, for some of them the second half put some lipstick on the pig but it wasn’t enough.
Next: Let’s forget this one quickly and get ready for the Indianapolis 500…
* 2-possessions games are not “real comebacks” in my book, you need to shoot for the tie or the lead to earn the moniker, but to each his own.
GRADES
Brunson D+
Don’t get fooled by the final numbers (20 points, 7 rebs, 8:3 AST:TO) he was bad (4-15 FG). He was clobbered on a meaningful drive at the end but was haunted by mastiffs all game long and he suffered them a lot, so much that he took only 4 3FG, missing all, they didn’t let him the space he needs to fire. Going 12-12 at the line was good for his stats, but at the end meaningless.
Randle A
Yes, the turnovers (5) and yes he misfired from long range (0-4) and yes he spent too much time complaining with the refs as the game goes on (Brunson and Berrett did just the same).
But this was as valiant an effort as you can get and he nearly stole a victory all by himself.
38 points in 36 minutes, 15-21 2FG despite Orlando’s frontcourt lenght, 12 boards, 6 assists, the only starter not with a negative +/- , prolonged spurts of total domination, a brilliant and effective array of moves in the paint.
I’ll repeat myself, this power forward, bullyball version of Julius we’re seeing isn’t perfect, but when engaged is a very very very good player, his talent was never in question.
Barrett D
Talking about lipstick on a pig… A clear “F” in the 1st half (5 points, 2-9 FG, -19 in 17 minutes, infuriating body language), he was more active in the 2nd, exploited some favourable missmatches (14 points 5-8 FG, 6 rebs) and turned the ball over/missed shots when he mustn’t.
All this while leading the team in minutes (36:39) and being second in shots (17)**, unbelievable if one isn’t aware the Knicks coach is a size king…
I hope there are FOs out there who read the statlines without watching the games, so he can mantain his trade value…
** And reverse-leading the team in the stoopid +/- at -22…
Di Vincenzo D+
I love the Big Ragu, his energy, his defense (3 steals) his moxie ( š ) but the shot wasn’t there (1-7).
Hartenstein D+
Maybe I’m a bit low with the grade, but it’s because I’m a I-Hart stan and I can’t stand watching him belittled by Goga Bitazde. He had as much steals and assists (3) than rebounds (3), not good.
Quickley C-
He hit our lonely three pointer of the first half (where the Knicks went 1-14 from 3) but he was subbed at the wrong moment. He played more in the 2nd, was a little unlucky with a couple of shots and couldn’t fully regain his spark. He did play 28 minutes, I would have used him more…
Hart C-
The human fastbreak wasn’t at his best, he did a lot of small things that don’t go in the boxscore but suffered against Orlando’s size. Far from his best game (no assists, 2 turnovers).
Gibson C
It’s not his fault if we need him to play 15 minutes. He’s still behind in conditioning, has lost a half step and survives (barely) with brain and tricks. Improving the position is a must (I’m not a Sims believer).
Grimes C-
I’m starting to think there’s a pattern here: after his burst with the media he shoots everything he touches as soon as he’s in the game, if he miss the first 2-3 shots, he goes back to be the polite guy who never raises his voice, while if he hits them he continues to bomb.
Thibs D
The team didn’t quit, always nice for a coach, and he gets a higher vote for defending his star player in the presser but to me watching his substitution patterns is too often becoming annoying as nails scratching on a chalkboard.
Just for the sake of objectivity, speaking about Thibs postgame presser, here’s a piece from CBS with a different POV on the subject…
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/knicks-tom-thibodeau-is-disgusted-with-the-way-jalen-brunson-is-being-officiated-but-he-may-be-misguided/
ERRATA CORRIGE:
I misstyped Julius’ 2FG, it’s an even better 16-21 (not 15-21).
Caught this one at the end of the 3rd, just like in OKC, and again i didn’t get to watch DDV. Funny coincidence. And this time also iHart. It was an entertaining 4th quarter, i liked it, it’s not usual for Brunson to miss those shots at the end, i think we’d probably won the game if those shots went in. On to the next! Let’s win in Indy because it’s not good to let the losing streak pile on!
I don’t like to complain about the physicality of the game, i think we have to compete the same way, apply the same physicality and may the best team win.
I agree 100% Cyberā¦ blood in the Garden! š
Current Doogie MVP rankings:
1. Nikola Jokic
2. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
3. Giannis Antetokounmpo
4. Tyrese Haliburton
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Joel Embiid
7. Anthony Edwards
8. Luka Doncic
9. Anthony Davis
10. Stephen Curry
Discuss…….or don’t. But have a great New Years, either way!
That’s a good list, but Embiid at 6 is far too low, he’s been having an unbelievable year and has been even better this year with a weaker team on paper than last season.
I’d personally go Jokic – Embiid – SGA – Giannis, but any of those guys could end up winning at the end.
SGA is rocking an insane .644 TS while only turning it over twice a game.
Itās truly a season for the ages; heās my MVP favorite. And with a strong supporting cast, I donāt think the Finals are out of the question either.
Being a Thunder fan right now is the definition of basketball nirvana
Iām fascinated by this Magic team. Not necessarily envious, just curious AF.
That huge frontline is something. They didnāt even have Wendell Carter last night.
This is a team that should be all in for Donovan Mitchell.
Doogie,
like Bruno I have Embiid higher and Tatum lower.
To me Jokic, Embiid, Giannis and SGA all have a chance and so far are close.
Just for info, Embiid dominated in the first leg of Tim Bontempsā āstraw pollā (that includes 100 teams and media people), where he got more than 60 first place votes.
But the season is longā¦
The longer heās gone the more obvious it is how much Mitch means to us. IHart is VERY good but Mitch is a smidge better and the drop off from IHart to Taj (or Sims) is massive.
I feel like Leon is just hoping we can muddle through to the trade deadline and he can pick up a decent back up center for cheap or even off the waiver wires instead of wasting assets now to get one in a trade.
And can you imagine this magic team with Chet?? Bancheroās not chopped liver but that is shaping up to be a mighty mistake.
Current Cyber MVP rankings:
1. JALEN BRUNSON
2. … 10. Some guys not near Brunson’s level !!!
š
I agree, and I wonder about that decision, because, like, what are they playing for, exactly? They obviously need a good center to be a realistic second round team, and yet they clearly don’t want to sacrifice real assets if Mitch is just going to be back next year (on a reducing contract, even!), but don’t you really have to do that to get a real backup center (or starter, with iHart going back to the bench) for this season so that the second round is more realistic and thus, the Conference Finals are a real possibility? It comes back to what, exactly, are they doing with this team? Are they trying to get lucky and make the NBA Finals this year? Are they just biding their time until Theoretical NBA Star Player X becomes available? I really don’t know what their plan is.
I’ve seen similar teams try similar approaches, where you sort of hope that your high 40 win team that just went to the second round can compete with organic improvement, but those teams typically at least had “Hope Bradley Beal becomes a superstar and Otto Porter Jr. becomes a legit third star” in their wishcasting (which was also asking for a lot, of course, but you could at least sort of squint and see it with 26 year old John Wall, 23 year old Bradley Beal and 23 year old Otto Porter Jr., and had just been to the second round two years earlier with 21 year old Beal and Porter Jr., but you had to squint haaaaaard). This team doesn’t even have that same “Hope Player X becomes a superstar” wishcasting capability, right? It’s all on whether Theoretical Star Player X can get here in the next year or two. And, I mean, I guess that’s technically a plan, but I don’t know that I love it when this team could definitely make some noise in the second round with a real center.
“Try to win as much as we can without a star, while also making sure that the asset coffers remain available for a theoretical star before our players get too old/too expensive” seems to me to be an almost self-defeating plan, as it’s going “Win now” every year (not adding draft picks, for instance) but refusing to make moves that will make them “Win now” as much as possible (as those moves would limit their ability to get a star later if they become available).
Brian,
I think a lot of it depends on what else is available/who they can move at the deadline. But they may not be AS concerned about positioning as much as just making the playoffs. If Mitch could be back by the playoffs and they can make a big move at another position before the deadline, why waste assets now for a back up C?
The schedule has been rough and theyāre still above 500 with a long home stretch coming up. Sims will be back soon. And Miami sneaked in to the playoffs last year only to get to the finals.
I mean sure theyād love to not face the bucks or Celtics early but if they can upgrade and get Mitch back by the playoffs, maybe theyāre less worried about playoff seeding.
Oh, if Mitch is back for the playoffs, then sure, making a real move for a center doesn’t make sense. I just think it sounds like he will not be. But yes, Mitch returning for the playoffs changes the calculus a great deal. I was working under the understanding that he was going to miss the rest of the season.
Yeah I donāt think he will be either but maybe theyāre holding out for more info in that regard before making a decision
I mean, they’re the ones who applied for an injury exception for him saying he’s out for the year, right? I think that probably says what their position is on him coming back. š
Obviously these last two losses are cause for concern. Our lack of positional size was a problem in both games. But even more concerning is the erratic 3pt shooting.
I’m not of the opinion that a lack of Mitch is the reason we lost these games. As a smaller team, we need to beat teams from the perimeter. When the 3’s aren’t falling, teams can just load up in the paint against us. You can’t go 6-30 and beat a bigger team. Our starters were 1-18. Against OKC, Brunson, Randle and RJ were a combined 3-16. DDV and IQ lifted our percentages, but we need more volume out there against a long, lanky team with elite shot-blocking.
It would be nice if we could pick up a 4/5 like Portis who could cover the backup C duties for now but also give us backup PF minutes when Mitch is back. Not sure who that would be though.
“Not sure who that would be though.”
How about Portis? Mostly kidding: the Bucks know how important he is to their team. I wish we had known when we actually had him in house.
Tonight becomes sort of a must-win game…not really, but for having a positive take on this brutal stretch. I’m not optimistic vs. MIN on 1/1, so this is the game that keeps us above .500 after running that gauntlet since the start of the IST.
Basically agreed, which is why I really like their chances. This team tends to step up in these quasi-must-win situations.
RJ probably deserves a better grade… he’s one of the two reasons why last night’s game was at all competitive down the stretch even though he had a horrendous first half….
against better defenses you need usage options… and when brunson is having trouble getting quality looks… and IQ can’t get off a shot against that defense… that doesn’t leave too many options… and while RJ wasn’t great… with a better defense or more timely 3pt shooting… it mght’ve been enough….
RJ did not play well in that stretch with the bench unit in the second qtr… but that occurred because IQ kept picking up his dribble and made someone else do something… and the only other option being RJ against a tough Orlando D.. it turned out bad… but he does not deserve all the blame for that….
I’m not sure I agree that Banchero over Holmgren was a mistake, but I’m more down on Holmgren than most people I guess.
He has been amazing so far, but he’s on a limited role in a very good team that has a legit MVP candidate at PG sucking all the defense and leaving him with open looks all game long. He’s been killing in this limited role, yes, but if you simply get Chet now and insert him on the Magic, he’s having a much harder time.
Banchero has improved this year compared to last, and he’s much more of a shot creator / focal point to the offense which is what Orlando needs. Of course Chet is the better defender, but Banchero feels like a player with more potential upside to me when it’s all said and done, specially considering Chet’s potential for injuries.
“He has been amazing so far, but heās on a limited role in a very good team that has a legit MVP candidate at PG sucking all the defense and leaving him with open looks all game long. Heās been killing in this limited role, yes, but if you simply get Chet now and insert him on the Magic, heās having a much harder time.”
Both Chet and Banchero are worthy top-2 picks in any order. Chet is awesome and probably would be on any team. He’s like a smarter, better rookie KP, where durability is the only big question mark and so far he’s been outstanding in nearly every regard, including handling the physicality of the league. He’s knocking down 3’s, scoring in iso, blocking shots, rebounding, passing, all at veteran b-ball IQ levels. Banchero doesn’t seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer, but his size-strength-athleticism-skill package is going to be a bigger and bigger problem for opponents. His shooting is erratic, but that probably isn’t helped by a lack of a true pg on his team. Imagine if they can get a Hali-type on the team….where he can focus on doing more off-ball and transition stuff…yikes!
Well, this has been my problem with the hybrid method from way back in the Phil Jackson days: when youāre trying to āwin nowā and also ārebuildā you end up doing a half-assed job at both. It feels like weāre kind of at the apex of the Leon Rose era, so Iām going to enjoy it for what it is.
Someday maybe weāll do this the right way. Probably not.
BTW did Thibs just “experiment” with the small lineup, or is iHart injured? I was wondering if he might have been getting evaluated for a concussion…
These weaknesses donāt show up every night or when the team is healthy. But you can see them coming if you think about matchups and injuries over and above just stats.
Not having a legit backup PF hasnāt burnt us yet, but if Randle gets hurt, a serious risk that should have been addressed in the off season is going to get exposed. If you think we are bit small now some nights (and we are) wait until Hart is the starting PF.
The one thing that does stand out with the Thunder rebuild in comparison to others, like the Magic even, is just how well every role fits on their team. I would argue Chet’s ceiling is as Anthony Davis 2.0, an absolutely elite 2nd option who can defend at the highest level and carry the scoring in spurts. Those guys typically need an elite ball handler next to them to create shots, and that’s exactly what SGA is. The next best role to have next to those guys as a #3 is a forward who can guard wings, shoot 3s and create a little as a secondary ball handler, and that’s Jalen Williams.
It’s really stupid how they seem to have nailed not only the talent level, but also the ideal roles of their key guys. Can’t help but admire what Presti has done with this team.
1. If Mitch is not coming back, they need someone that gives us more than Taj. Maybe Sims will look better at backup, but if not they have to make a move. But they CANNOT afford to give up any worthwhile asset.
2. We were hoping either RJ or Grimes would move forward and win their spots, but that looks like a fail. So we need an upgrade at 2 positions.
3. I think itās highly likely we can get Mitchell eventually. The size question then becomes even bigger. It makes getting that 6ā7ā or 6ā8ā SF thatās a high level defender critical. But if you have Mitchell, Randle, and Brunson he does not have to be a scorer. 3&D would be fine.
4. If we are more 3&Dish at SG then we need a scorer at SF.
I still think we have the assets to do everything we have to do, but they have to pull the trigger at least once soon and the big trigger by summer
Plus they still have some intriguing upside play kind of players: Cason Wallace, a 3-and-D rookie guard who seems to be good at both the ā3ā and āDā part, and Ousmane Dieng, a tantalizing athlete with some length and skill who is still a work in progress. Rounding it out is a bunch of high floor nut-and-bolt players like Isaiah Joe, Jaylin āwith an Iā Williams, and competent 6ā6ā wing Aaron Wiggins. Depth and upside. Many of the best pieces are 22 or younger.
Can’t help but wonder what the score would be in the past 2 games if IQ played 36 min. At least yesterday was an improvement, if only because we went small.
This is correct and why we should just go āall inā asap.
Look, we have two top-20 points leaders so far this year (efficiency be damned): Bronson at #8 and Randle at #16. We need to put the best seasoned defenders around them and call it a day. Just go for it.
If Iām Leon, Iād throw everything at 2 guys: Caruso and Herb Jones. Slot them in at the 2 and 3. See how far that takes you.
Grimes, Jeffries, McBride, Dallas 2024 1st for Caruso
Fournier, Quickley, Bucks 2025 1st for Herb Jones, Nance
Woj Bomb.
Jesus, they traded IQ. At least they got rid of RJ.
WOJ BOMB:
– OG to the Knicks
– RJ, IQ and draft picks to TOR.
It looks like a done deal!
Oh, fuck!
Wow! I hate to lose IQ, but basically my prayers have been answered. It’s time for Deuce to step up.
Details to come, but for now I’m more stunned (and hurt) for IQ than anything else, I need time to digest the news and the new lineups configuration… holy shit
I suppose this depends on what picks the Knicks are trading.
I am so, so, so sad to lose IQ. I can’t evaluate this rationally at all.
Wow
Uh… Donte at backup PG? Deuce? Someone else?
Wtf out of left field
Knicks did not value IQ. Another person falls to thibs ignorance
This makes us better, if for no other reason than we’ll actually play OG 30+ minutes.
Oh shit!
Iāve always thought that OG was kind of overrated, but really hope he proves me wrong
And like others, very sad to see IQ go
Oh wow. Looks like a second rounder only.
Feels like someone used the monkey’s paw to bring OG here
According to Shams,
the pick is a second rounder “via Detroit” (???).
Maybe the 31st pick this year?
OG recently signed to CAA
This trade has the marking of Thibs and Leon all over it
pick means nothing to me
Its basically quickley I’m mad about
Maybe the plan is to do this and then get Murray for SG/backup PG?
So Leon Rose basically was brought in to get his CAA buddies not a big time star
We also got Precious from Toronto, which will be very helpful for roster balance. And so far, the only pick that Woj has cited is the Detroit second.
If it’s literally RJ, IQ, and the Detroit 2nd for OG and Precious… man, I hate losing IQ, but OG is exactly what we need, and we do have a million other small guards. And trading RJ is addition by subtraction.
Main issue is who is the backup PG now? A lot may be placed on Deuce’s shoulders.
Irrational thoughts (and fears):
– Just like d-mar I think OG is a little overrated (but he’s the perfect fit for RJ’s former role) and hope to be wrong
– Our bench unit lose its main source of firepower and I’m worried about it
– Could this open the highway for another trade (Murray?)?
Sounds like RJ just cost quik – fudge man…
get prepared to be placed under a microscope OG…
We have enough left over to get a Murray deal done. Go for it Leon!
We had to give up something of value to get OG. Masai is not stupid. I’m super pumped to get OG and Precious is a nice bonus. I love this trade. It’s probably good for IQ’s career as well.
I mean, RJ stinks. So it’s IQ and #31 for OG. You can’t say we didn’t value IQ highly–the Raptors were looking for 3 firsts for the guy recently. I think the team is now better because it’s much more balanced and we weren’t playing IQ enough to benefit a ton from his good play anyway.
OG was 35th in EPM last year (though 109th this year FWIW), and I’ve always bought that the box score doesn’t do him justice. This is justifiable, especially with Achiuwa coming back.
But man, you really can’t help but think we’re gonna regret it. I will always root for IQ, and have a feeling he’s about to go a bit crazy with 30+ minutes secured.
Precious Achiuwa is part of the deal, we have our 4/5 backup.
What happened here is the knciks used IQ to slary dump RJ
Why not just give up this year’s first unprotected and keep IQ..
this is actually going to hurt us in the near term… OG has developed more into an off ball role and they really are hurting for more usage since randle and brunson aren’t consistent…. there’s absolutely nobody else now ….
in order for this to work we need Donovan Mitchell…. and that becomes harder without RJ or IQ to trade…
Ok, this was unexpected, they did pull the trigger after all… it hurts to lose Quickley, it’s a relief to get rid of RJ, and we finally have the big wing who can defend and shoot a little…
If it’s just a 2nd rounder, I’m fine with the trade, it hurts losing IQ and now we have a lack of playmakers in the second unit, but this is a BIG upgrade defensively and Anunoby is a better shooter than RJ anyway.
the IQ regret will come from Leon and Thibs not getting the guy on the court and giving him his proper minutes
Knick fans know how good he is, but the front office didnt
New thread!
Ok, getting Achiuwa too is pretty nice, good rebounder, guards multiple positions, I like it.
Shams confirms it’s just the Detroit 2nd.
Barring another trade, the rotation is now:
C: iHart / Precious
PF: Randle / Precious / Hart
SF: OG / Hart
SG: DDV / Grimes
PG: Brunson / Deuce
Backup PG seems to be the big weakness. But that roster makes so much more sense than the one we had yesterday.
Oh, and we got Malachi Flynn, who might be a better option than Deuce to run the second unit? Bench mob definitely needs more firepower than it has now.
Two thumbs down.
I love me some IQ, but at $25-30M AAV on a team with Brunson, he just didn’t make as much sense here as he will in TOR. And whatever we lost in not paying him, we gained in a) acquiring a quintessential 3nD versatile wing that is a much better fit in our current starting lineup than RJ, b) dispatching the risk associated with RJ’s remaining contract, which right now looks like a significant overpay, and most importantly, c) preserving draft capital in acquiring a guy that was projected to cost multiple firsts.
IQ is an amazing and fun to root for home-grown player that will be sorely missed, no doubt about it. He may even become a dynamite starting PG who eventually makes us regret making this trade. But it’s a move that makes total sense in the current situation.
Question – outside of some distant Knick firsts (which I think we agree Rose was never trading), was that Detroit second the Knicks’ next best pick, value-wise?
HATE that they traded my guy IQ!!!
Butā¦
1. If heās the price to pay to avoid coughing up 1RPs, then I guess
2. Remember earlier on in the season there was an article that said there was a ācivil warā on the team in terms of player approach to playing ball. The Nova boys were cited as āknowing how to playā while Quickley was stated to be an āemotionalā player. Good or bad, there something to why the team didnāt want to make a long-term commitment to him.
dejounte’s off to the lakers…donte is an amazing value at his salary cost – and, he plays the position well…
it just feels like we need to match jalen up with someone taller – yeah, that’s my brilliant analytical evaluation…
jalen brunson is short (for the nba, i’d be looking up to him standing side by side)…it just seems like we need to match him with a defensive minded and tallish shooting guard…
as silly as that sounds š