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Knicks Morning News (2023.11.15)

  • New York Knicks VS Atlanta Hawks Betting Pick & Preview – 11/15 … – ATS.io
    [ATS.io] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 5:38:19 AM

    New York Knicks VS Atlanta Hawks Betting Pick & Preview – 11/15 …  ATS.io

  • New York Knicks at Atlanta Hawks odds, picks and predictions – USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire
    [USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 5:31:00 AM

    New York Knicks at Atlanta Hawks odds, picks and predictions  USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire

  • RJ Barrett’s success, Immanuel Quickley’s rotations and more Knicks trends – The Athletic
    [The Athletic] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 5:10:19 AM

    RJ Barrett’s success, Immanuel Quickley’s rotations and more Knicks trends  The Athletic

  • Ex-Knicks GM Feels New York Isn’t Far From Contention After Loss To Celtics – NESN
    [NESN] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 4:33:03 AM

    Ex-Knicks GM Feels New York Isn’t Far From Contention After Loss To Celtics  NESN

  • Salem State still special to Knicks’ Thibodeau | Sports | eagletribune … – Eagle-Tribune
    [Eagle-Tribune] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 4:00:00 AM

    Salem State still special to Knicks’ Thibodeau | Sports | eagletribune …  Eagle-Tribune

  • Hawks vs. Knicks NBA Betting Preview for November 15 – Athlon Sports
    [Athlon Sports] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 3:59:43 AM

    Hawks vs. Knicks NBA Betting Preview for November 15  Athlon Sports

  • Atlanta Hawks vs. New York Knicks odds, tips and betting trends | 11/15/2023 – USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire
    [USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 3:47:00 AM

    Atlanta Hawks vs. New York Knicks odds, tips and betting trends | 11/15/2023  USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire

  • Knicks vs. Hawks Injury Report Today – November 15 – WBNG
    [WBNG] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 3:06:00 AM

    Knicks vs. Hawks Injury Report Today – November 15  WBNG

  • Trae Young Injury Status – Hawks vs. Knicks Injury Report November … – WTOC
    [WTOC] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 3:06:00 AM

    Trae Young Injury Status – Hawks vs. Knicks Injury Report November …  WTOC

  • Trae Young Injury Status – Hawks vs. Knicks Injury Report November 15 – WCTV
    [WCTV] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 3:06:00 AM

    Trae Young Injury Status – Hawks vs. Knicks Injury Report November 15  WCTV

  • Hawks hope to stay hot against Knicks – Deadspin
    [Deadspin] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 2:55:30 AM

    Hawks hope to stay hot against Knicks  Deadspin

  • Hawks hope to stay hot against Knicks | Fieldlevel | albanyherald.com – The Albany Herald
    [The Albany Herald] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 2:54:55 AM

    Hawks hope to stay hot against Knicks | Fieldlevel | albanyherald.com  The Albany Herald

  • New York Knicks Vs. Atlanta Hawks: Prediction & Starting Lineups … – Lineups
    [Lineups] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 2:26:18 AM

    New York Knicks Vs. Atlanta Hawks: Prediction & Starting Lineups …  Lineups

  • Knicks facing another back-to-back test this weekend – New York Post
    [New York Post ] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 2:20:00 AM

    Knicks facing another back-to-back test this weekend  New York Post

  • Buy tickets for Hornets vs. Knicks on November 28 – WIS News 10
    [WIS News 10] — Wednesday, November 15, 2023 2:18:00 AM

    Buy tickets for Hornets vs. Knicks on November 28  WIS News 10

  • Heat Improves to 2-0 in Tournament Play After Win vs. Hornets – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 10:38:32 PM

    Heat Improves to 2-0 in Tournament Play After Win vs. Hornets  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks’s perfect Zach LaVine trade to offer Bulls – ClutchPoints
    [ClutchPoints] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 9:57:00 PM

    Knicks’s perfect Zach LaVine trade to offer Bulls  ClutchPoints

  • Hawks hope to stay hot against Knicks – Reuters
    [Reuters] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 9:53:59 PM

    Hawks hope to stay hot against Knicks  Reuters

  • Scott Perry’s Knicks warning: Pursue disgruntled stars with ‘real caution’ – New York Post
    [New York Post ] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 9:02:00 PM

    Scott Perry’s Knicks warning: Pursue disgruntled stars with ‘real caution’  New York Post

  • Zion Williamson Sends Trade Signals, Should the Knicks Pull the Trigger? – Heavy.com
    [Heavy.com] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 6:29:55 PM

    Zion Williamson Sends Trade Signals, Should the Knicks Pull the Trigger?  Heavy.com

  • Will Tyrese Maxey ruin Knicks’ chance to trade for Joel Embiid? – Daily Knicks
    [Daily Knicks] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 5:00:29 PM

    Will Tyrese Maxey ruin Knicks’ chance to trade for Joel Embiid?  Daily Knicks

  • Brooklyn Nets’ Ben Simmons Will ‘Miss Time’ After MRI – New York … – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 4:42:26 PM

    Brooklyn Nets’ Ben Simmons Will ‘Miss Time’ After MRI – New York …  Sports Illustrated

  • New York Knicks vs Atlanta Hawks Prediction, 11/15/2023 Preview and Pick – Doc’s Sports
    [Doc’s Sports] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 3:19:07 PM

    New York Knicks vs Atlanta Hawks Prediction, 11/15/2023 Preview and Pick  Doc’s Sports

  • NBA Rumors: Disastrous Knicks trade could be on the table – Daily Knicks
    [Daily Knicks] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 3:08:45 PM

    NBA Rumors: Disastrous Knicks trade could be on the table  Daily Knicks

  • Knicks’ Julius Randle: All-around performance in loss – CBS Sports
    [CBS Sports] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 2:36:00 PM

    Knicks’ Julius Randle: All-around performance in loss  CBS Sports

  • Is Zach LaVine A Trade Target For New York Knicks? – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 2:32:45 PM

    Is Zach LaVine A Trade Target For New York Knicks?  Sports Illustrated

  • Kristaps Porzingis Rejects ‘Falsely Pushed’ New York Knicks Narrative – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 2:00:22 PM

    Kristaps Porzingis Rejects ‘Falsely Pushed’ New York Knicks Narrative  Sports Illustrated

  • Lessons from Celtics-Knicks: winning the war of attrition – Celtics Blog
    [Celtics Blog] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 2:00:00 PM

    Lessons from Celtics-Knicks: winning the war of attrition  Celtics BlogJayson Tatum calls out Celtics-Knicks ref for undeserved tech  NBC Sports BostonNew York Knicks vs Boston Celtics Nov 13, 2023 Box Scores  NBA.com

  • Knicks Take Small Jump in NBA Power Rankings – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 1:51:00 PM

    Knicks Take Small Jump in NBA Power Rankings  Sports Illustrated

  • Jayson Tatum calls out Celtics-Knicks ref for undeserved tech – Yahoo Sports
    [Yahoo Sports] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 11:55:11 AM

    Jayson Tatum calls out Celtics-Knicks ref for undeserved tech  Yahoo Sports

  • Knicks’ Josh Hart Made a Genius Pass to Himself Off a Defender’s … – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 11:29:52 AM

    Knicks’ Josh Hart Made a Genius Pass to Himself Off a Defender’s …  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks’ Jalen Brunson: Top scorer in defeat – CBS Sports
    [CBS Sports] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 11:14:58 AM

    Knicks’ Jalen Brunson: Top scorer in defeat  CBS Sports

  • Hart Avoids Travel, Sinks Off-the-Back 3 vs. Holiday (Video) – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 11:10:13 AM

    Hart Avoids Travel, Sinks Off-the-Back 3 vs. Holiday (Video)  Sports Illustrated

  • Quentin Grimes must be more aggressive, for both his and the … – sny.tv
    [sny.tv] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 11:05:21 AM

    Quentin Grimes must be more aggressive, for both his and the …  sny.tv

  • New York Knicks Stax – San Francisco Chronicle
    [San Francisco Chronicle] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 10:24:25 AM

    New York Knicks Stax  San Francisco Chronicle

  • Kristaps Porzingis refutes claims of wanting solo spotlight in NBA career: ‘It was never an issue for me.’ – New York Daily News
    [New York Daily News] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 10:01:46 AM

    Kristaps Porzingis refutes claims of wanting solo spotlight in NBA career: ‘It was never an issue for me.’  New York Daily News

  • Knicks notes on Zion Williamson, Kristaps Porzingis, Obi Toppin – Posting and Toasting
    [Posting and Toasting] — Tuesday, November 14, 2023 10:00:00 AM

    Knicks notes on Zion Williamson, Kristaps Porzingis, Obi Toppin  Posting and Toasting

  • 84 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.11.15)”

    Ok yal..hear me out lol

    With Embiid possibly off the market and Giannis definitely off the market, maybe the team SHOULD look into a KAT trade. If we’re gonna continue to go small on the wings and the backup 4, swapping Randle for KAT is probably the most logical way to add size to the way this team plays. Now KAT is a much better C than a PF, but overall- he and Randle are about the same caliber of player. The biggest differences are Julius is a better ballhandler on the perimeter and a better tough shot maker off the dribble, while KAT will block more shots and shoot better overall. Now- Randle is the better defender when he’s locked in because he can guard his man on the perimeter while being strong enough to bang in the paint. With Randle’s up and down focus on that side of the ball, we’re not losing much if anything defensively with KAT. We’re a bigger team with him, and we absolutely need a little more size. I know that contract sucks, but with the way we are playing with RJ, Hart, DDV, and Grimes- I can’t get mad at swapping Randle for KAT. However, Leon should hang the phone up really hard old school rotary phone style if they ask for Quickley. I think Thibs can craft an effective defense with Mitch and KAT together.

    KAT instead of Randle would improve the spacing, but I worry about the overall defense, fit with Mitch and money. I suspect the T-Wolves aren’t anxious to make that trade now anyway. They didn’t get a good look at Gobert/Towns last year because Towns was hurt. So far it seems to be working (how I don’t know). The defense has been excellent with Gobert as the anchor and Towns finally went off on offense last night. He’s probably not going to score like he did previously now that they have Antman breaking out, but as long as he’s efficient who cares.

    Yea Strat, I’m also confused as to how KAT and Gobert are working considering that Finch isn’t necessarily known as a defensive minded coach. I’m with you on everything you said, but my thing is I don’t see the team moving RJ to add size, and Grimes’ salary might not bring back a good enough player. And I don’t necessarily want to move him either, even with the team having DDV and Deuce available for more minutes. I initially thought we’d be ok if Sims has to play spot minutes at the 4 depending on matchups, but with Randle only taking advantage of his strength on drives and only being 6’8″, I am now worried about being physically overwhelmed against teams who use the size they have effectively. 3 of them are ahead of us in the East- Milwaukee, Boston, and Philly. There are other teams in the East that use their size well, but those teams aren’t quite on our level.

    I will admit, I have also reconsidered a KAT for Randle swap. Same with Zion. I would have more reservations about Zion although I think the ceiling if he’s locked in and stays healthy is much higher.

    What I can’t get on board with is the idea that Randle is some distressed asset that would require us to attach multiple picks and/or young players to him in order to get KAT or Zion. For me, it would be a straight swap (plus Fournier and MAYBE one first round pick) to get these guys.

    KAT makes way more than Randle and is on a longer contract. He’s been in Minny now for many years and has achieved hardly anything.

    Zion is grumbling about wanting out and has missed 2/3 of his NBA career.

    Why is Randle the distressed asset and these guys are not? So the two time all-star, all NBA player who is on a super team friendly contract requires us to attach multiple assets to him in order to get a guy who is ONE year younger and is paid way more and is basically the same level of production except worse defense but better shooting? Or to get the guy who has missed the majority of his NBA career and is constantly being made fun of around the league for being out of shape and disinterested in playing hard bc he had the unfortunate luck of being the number one pick and going to a city/franchise he “doesn’t like” (because obviously if anything goes wrong in NYC he won’t act like a diva).

    Wanna do a swap with Randle and Fournier for one of these guys to shake things up? I’m open to it.

    Attach Grimes or IQ or multiple first round picks. No fucking way.

    Minnesota is 8-2. They might not be looking for a trade right now.

    And I’m not really seeing where being small has hurt us. We’re 1st in DRB% and 2nd in ORB%. We’re 5th in DRTG. Those are the places that lack of size usually hurts you.

    If we want KAT it should be for his shooting, size hasn’t been an issue.

    The one thing I did notice when looking at KAT’s stats is that he seems to be getting to the rim a little less often. That’s probably because Gobert’s man is in the area also. He’s probably settling for some extra short shots instead. That’s probably part of why his efficiency is down compared to the older days. So when we evaluate him, we should probably think of him next to Mitch as the same as him next to Gobert instead of the Towns we remember at C. Still, this Towns taking 3s is a lot better in my mind than Randle taking them.

    Team Rudy

    His quote smells like horse shit to me.

    Bigger man? You were in a headlock, bro. If you were such a big man why did you put your hands on Klay?

    Rudy was the 3rd man in. In the NHL — a league that knows how to regulate this stuff — the 3rd man always gets the harshest penalty bc he’s the guy who escalates thing from a one-on-one tussle to a team fight.

    Nothing excuses Dray, but get this MF off his high horse. This is the same idiot who caught covid and showed up to team practice laughing and coughing all over everyone.

    Dude feels validated bc he got off, but I saw the tape. He didn’t put his hands on Dray bc he physically could not. When he wasn’t in a headlock, he was more than happy to put his hands all over someone much smaller than him and whose back was turned.

    Minnesota is 8-2. They might not be looking for a trade right now.

    Exactly. The team is off to its joint best start to a season ever.

    kat is a fun thought but it ends with thibs as coach…. not that they didn’t get along.. i don’t know what happened… but thibs giving him the obi treatment and just sticking him in the corner wasn’t really the best way to use kat and it’s going to work out badly.. he’s not really like randle in that he can iso like a guard….

    if we get kat.. which i think is actually one of the better moves to be thinking about…. it would have to come with a coaching change to make it work…. someone like nick nurse probably could cook up something…

    in any event… the wolves are on track for a big year and towns is going to be a big part of that… so probably not happening…. it would only happen in a world where we probably don’t want him anyway…

    Same with Zion.

    I would trade for Zion but I wouldn’t expect him to retire here. That dude’s got a lot of James Harden in him, both the good and bad.

    Patience is the key. The Knicks are a competitive team with lots of good players on market value or better deals. They don’t need a chemistry-killing overpaid faux-savior at the cost it would take to bring one in.

    That said, I do worry that they have built a team where making any kind of trade is going to feel weird. Really, there shouldn’t be a single untouchable player on the roster. But Brunson feels untouchable. And because of that, Josh Hart and DDV also feel untouchable. But should Brunson be untouchable? If we can land Spida, might it make sense to trade Brunson for a really good player at another position? How would the fan base react to that? Or is that idea a non-starter because Brunson is Brunson and Leon is Leon?

    Then you have 3 guys that are in contract limbo…IQ, Grimes, and iHart. Who knows what will happen with them going forward?

    And then there are the 3 players from prior regimes signed to long-term deals…RJ, Randle and Mitch. Depending on the star you target, one or two of these guys pretty much has to go out. If it’s Embiid, it would likely be Mitch. If Zion, it would be Randle. If OG, it would be RJ.

    It will be interesting to see what shakes out as the season goes on and teams start facing their realities, including ours. If we are hovering around .500 or even below that come February, things could get dicey.

    The Celts game was pretty revealing. They have a formidable team with lots of ways to beat you. Replacing the hyper-erratic Smart and the offensively challenged Timelord with much, much better 2-way players who can both stretch the floor is the kind of bold move we need to make. KP and Jrue are both in the perfect roles as #3 and #4 options. And while their bench is thin, they got some stuff back for Smart that could be used to add depth.

    They’re not unbeatable or anything, but we just don’t match up well with them at all. And that’s not going to change any time soon unless we start getting more creative. Any team with a balanced offensive roster, defensive length, and a big who can score from beyond the paint is going to give us problems.

    Z-Man

    Good point on Brunson and the whole Villanova crew being limiting in a way if they are all untouchable. That’s somewhat related to my frustration with the IQ situation. He seems more likely to be moved in part because of the Villanova and Brunson connection.

    One of the issues with trading for KAT is that even if they start struggling and KAT is not happy, how do you make the case to come to NY when Mitch is the C. It’s the same thing. You’d have to blow up the team and move Mitch also to get KAT back at C. I’m not sure I want Brunson at PG and KAT at C on defense.

    Maybe the Clippers will keep sinking into an abyss and either George or Kawhi will shake loose.

    LOL who taught you that trick, my wife, my daughters or my assistant principal?

    LOL! 😉

    Z-man, I think you’re right that any trade will feel weird and there probably won’t be a consensus either way on if it’s good or bad. I think that’s because we have a very deep and talented team but we do not have any “superstars.” We have some dudes who are top 50 and a lot of dudes who are top 100ish but no top 10 dudes. So any trade, especially if it involves several of our rotation players, is going to carry a lot of risk to it.

    Reddish for Reaves in the Laker starting lineup followed by a quality Laker mini-run.

    Maybe this is a buy-low opportunity on Zion? This is his fifth year in the league and he hasn’t done a whole lot.

    At this point I might not even be interested in Zion. He’s not versatile at all, and if he’s loses even a little bit of his athleticism he’s not going to be a very valuable player.

    It’s super early still, but after that hideously rough start where we were still in most games and could have won almost all of them, and with the slow progression to the mean by most players, despite the lack of A1s we might just have a really good team. Part of the evidence for that is the way this group is talking about trades. In short, I keep hearing we’re good enough now that a trade for various existing stars just doesn’t make sense. People (some anyway) are even uncomfortable with figuring out a real top 5 trade that would make sense, e.g., Embiid.

    Partly it’s the complicated way this team fits together, part of it is that some stars have fallen (looking at you, Zion, who most here would have gone for two years ago in a nanosecond). but I find this weirdly heartening.

    Personally I’m fairly excited to dance with the one what brought us.

    I am very conflicted about Zion. Always hurt. Plays no defense..

    I think my only opinion that I think matters at this point is that one-way players are hard to win with.

    Partly it’s the complicated way this team fits together,

    I agree.

    It’s easier to figure out what we need than it is to find someone that can provide it and fit into the remainder of the team. You don’t want add someone that solves a couple of problems but creates a new one.

    Maybe I’m just looking for perfection that rarely exists and it’s on the coach to figure it all out. But if you look at the serious contenders, the pieces usually fit together really well in terms of playing making, scoring, spacing, rebounding, and defense both starting and bench.

    I think my only opinion that I think that matters at this point is that one-way players are hard to win with.

    That’s the way I feel about it.

    On defense you can get away with one weak player because you can hide him sometimes and it’s team oriented enough to cover for a single player with strength elsewhere. But when you have more than one weak link on defense it seems to break down.

    On offense, you can get away with 1 guy that’s limited as long as he’s very efficient in at least one area and of course very good on defense.

    I don’t mean this in a remotely trolling way, but a team that’s pretty good but otherwise “fits together” in a “complicated” way is kind of the natural and expected result of mezzanine shopping, wherein you go out and get a collection of good players available at the mezz window, worry about fit later, and Moneyball things in the interim.

    That’s pretty much exactly the history of this team since the Durant/Irving whiff summer.

    That said, a true Leap from RJ might serve to blast them out of this status.

    You also have to play Zion next to a stretch 5 because his perimeter game is nonexistent. And since he doesn’t play defense, your stretch 5 also needs to be a rim protector, which means you have to play him next to an elite center or you’re going to have other problems.

    I’m just not sure how well Zion’s game translates to this particular era. The big booty power forward that doesn’t shoot is kind of like the dodo bird at this point.

    A lot of the Zion upside has to do with him not really wanting to play in NO and benefitting greatly from a change of scenery. The talent is still massive. I do agree that he’s become something of a high-maintenance pain in the ass.

    I don’t mean this in a remotely trolling way, but a team that’s pretty good but otherwise “fits together” in a “complicated” way is kind of the natural and expected result of mezzanine shopping, wherein you go out and get a collection of good players available at the mezz window, worry about fit later, and Moneyball things in the interim.

    Not to start the draft incineration debate again, but if you are going to take the approach we’ve been taking (all options available), it’s OK to ALSO occasionally draft for need within a group of players you have ranked similarly. You can simultaneously try to use picks for a huge deal, but also occasionally use one. I think Dallas tanking last year caught them by surprise. My guess is they intended to draft someone last year.

    i’m not sure what you guys think of zion as a defender… but it’s not like randle is mister hustle himself….

    the biggest difference is in the board work.. where randle is better but other than that zion fits better in thibs’ offense than randle does simply because he’s a semi-unstoppable force getting to the rim and thibs’ offense demands people attack the rim at all costs..

    where it seems that randle is reaching the end of his driving to the rim whenever he wants part of his career.. zion probably has 0-4 years of that before he needs to get a second act together…. so he extends the runway on this team where it’s going to be hard to picture all-nba randle again….

    but the best skill is the drive to work… zion was never a finished product… neither was ben simmons…. what he is right now is a really damn good and near unstoppable player… but it’s all moot if he just wants to eat all day and can’t play in games… and the short big but recurrent out of shape guy is the type of profile that is really really tough to shake…. charles barkley is one that managed to mature out of it… but there’s a huge graveyard of careers in nba’s histories…

    you really have to be sure or out of options to be giving up anything significant for it…

    “My guess is they intended to draft someone last year.”

    I think you mean “this year,” no?

    charles barkley is one that managed to mature out of it

    Charles Barkley was never out of shape. He was a shorter power forward and his nickname was the “round mound of rebound” but that was more because he was just shorter for a PF and was incredibly strong. Google image search Barkley when he played for the 76ers. He was never “fat.”

    We don’t really need to make a move right now, we need to wait and see if RJ & IQ are actually having breakout campaigns and if Brunson and Randle can get their numbers back up.

    We currently have a 5.79 SRS, which puts us 5th in the league. Last year, it would’ve been 2nd last year, 3rd the year before that, and 3rd going back yet another year.

    There’s a lot of great teams this year and it would surprise nobody if our defense slips or RJ reverts to RJ, but we don’t need to make a move.

    If a superstar comes along, great! If not, no worries because we’re currently playing above the mezzanine and it’s better to see if our young guys are having true breakouts than throw a bunch of picks at empty calorie stars.

    I think you mean “this year,” no?

    Yes. I wasn’t clear. The draft that just passed. They had their own pick and Dallas’s pick. They used their own to get Hart expecting to still have Dallas’s.

    I may take a break from the board tomorrow if the Hawks beat us tonight and we fall to 5-6. They are playing OK and you know they are going to be amped to beat us at home. This is a dangerous game.

    Zion is not my cup of tea, and wasn’t even at draft time…in the sense that I did not see him as a “transcendent” star. Folks were throwing comparisons to LeBron, Barkley, Malone, and other all-time greats.

    Zion has some major flaws. He’s not especially long, has a shortish wingspan, can’t reliably shoot FTs, can be allowed to shoot pretty much anywhere outside of 15ft, and doesn’t seem to be a high-IQ player or a high-motor player except in spurts. If the definition of unstoppable is Giannis, or Embiid, or Durant, he’s pretty damn far from unstoppable. And that’s not even getting into his health/fitness issues.

    Will he get better? Who knows, both if and how much? I’m very bearish on him ever becoming a true max player, and only a degree less so on him ever being worth what he will be getting paid. At best, he’s a prime Melo-level player, and even that is pretty far from where he is right now.

    I wouldn’t touch him with a 10ft pole unless I could get him for virtually nothing and he was on something like a Randle-level deal. I would WAAAAAY prefer a guy like OG or Mikal or even decline-phase Kawhi to him.

    This team needs defensive length and consistent perimeter shooting. Again, see what the Celtics did, and what the Thunder are doing. When you have Brunson as one of your Big 3, you can’t afford another undersized/subpar defender in the starting lineup, especially one that can’t shoot. The hardest of no’s on Zion.

    I just caught up the Boston game,
    it looks like we can sometimes lose with RJ but we can’t never win without him, to me it’s a strange feeling…

    Anyway, healthy Celtics are true contenders, I’m impressed. Can Embiid be their kryptonite?

    I don’t want LaVine, Zion’s a pain in the ass, I can’t see OG as a “star” and while I’d trade Julius for KAT I can’t see the Wolves sell him after their start or him coached by Thibs again.

    Do we really need a trade now? There’s still a lot of time before the deadline and we need to knows what’s true and what’s false after this “strange” start.

    Tonight’s game is another good test.

    “Charles Barkley was never out of shape. He was a shorter power forward and his nickname was the “round mound of rebound” but that was more because he was just shorter for a PF and was incredibly strong. Google image search Barkley when he played for the 76ers. He was never “fat.””

    Barkley was fat the same way that Doncic and Jokic were fat, or going back, guys like Mark Jackson and Mark Aguirre. Barkley was a poster boy for durability, playing nearly 40K minutes and 5K playoff minutes. From age 21 to 32 he never played less than 2298 minutes in a season or averaged less than 35mpg, and usually played a lot more than that. He also had a great motor on both ends.

    Zion will never, ever, ever be close to the all-around player that Charles Barkley was, no matter what kind of shape he gets into. That ship has sailed.

    For a while, the bargain with Zion was that he’d be extremely productive when he played, but he didn’t play that much. Acquiring him was thus a calculated risk.

    Now he’s playing, but not very well, and seems noticeably less athletic despite still just being 23. It significantly changes the calculus if you can’t even be sure he’ll be good when healthy.

    I thus can’t think of a trade that makes any sense. I mean, sure, for a bargain I’d still take the upside play, but the Pelicans are not trading the guy for a bag of balls. They need the upside play too.

    I would totally trade for Zion if he became available. He has tons of red flags and downside potential but that is why he might become available. He still has the chance to be a top 5 NBA player and is under 24. The only reason he has any chance of being moved is because of his huge downside risk. That is a risk worth taking in my opinion because I see no other way of us ever getting a top 10 NBA player.

    With that said, a player I would really like to see us start shaking the tree on is Markkanen. Utah is approaching a shit or get off the pot scenario with him and they either need to start making real moves to build around him or trade him while he is still at peak value. He would be a perfect fit for this team.

    KAT would also work, but with Minnesota doing so well I think he is completely off the market. If OG ends up back on the market I would go after him as well but as Randle’s replacement, not RJ’s.

    I think upgrading Randle is the best path to improving this team and I would give him plus real assets if it meant getting any of Markkanen, Zion, OG, or KAT. Probably in that order of preference.

    Charles Barkley was never out of shape.

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/13650802/nba-how-moses-malone-mentored-young-charles-barkley

    Barkley said he reported to camp weighing close to 300 pounds. Few in the Sixers’ organization, particularly coach Billy Cunningham, saw the humor in his nickname — the Round Mound of Rebound. Barkley, who expected to step in and be a starter, saw limited action in the early days of the season.

    He turned to the one veteran who offered the most encouragement — the imposing Moses Malone — and asked him for some feedback.

    “I pulled Moses aside and asked him, ‘Why am I not playing more?'” Barkley recalled on Sunday.

    Malone turned, looked him up and down and declared, “You’re fat and you’re lazy, that’s why. You can’t play basketball if you’re not in shape.”

    Moses instructed the rookie to lose 10 pounds, then told him to meet him at the gym an hour ahead of practice the following morning. For the next month, he trained Barkley before and after the team workouts. Barkley shed 15 pounds in a week’s time and started to notice a difference in his stamina.

    So his rookie year before the season started he was overweight once? And then he got his shit together and lost weight.

    Not exactly refuting my point. I guess if you want to argue semantics, then he was overweight once, not never. YOU GOT ME!

    So his rookie year before the season started he was overweight once?

    https://www.si.com/nba/2016/06/28/charles-barkley-got-fat-houston-rockets-paycut-2000-season

    ““The only year that I was fat was my last year in Houston, because they had promised me $12 million. When I showed up, the contract was only for $8 million. And I said, ‘What happened to my other $4 million?’ They said, ‘Well, we just decided to keep it.’ …

    “I was so [ticked off]. What had happened was I took a paycut so we could sign Scottie Pippen,” Barkley said. “So they said, ‘We need you to take a paycut so we can sign Scottie.’ I said, ‘OK, I would love to play with Scottie.’ They said, ‘We’ll give you $12 million next year.’ So when I showed up the next year, they bring me a contract. I said, ‘This looks like an 8.’ They said, ‘Yeah, we’re going to give you $8 million.’ I said, ‘What about the other $4 million?’ They’re like, ‘Well, we just changed our mind.’ So I wasn’t motivated.”

    Markkanen

    I think I love this idea if we could somehow pull it off, but that means dealing with Ainge. So it would cost us every pick, every swap, every good player we have, and a few of us might have to give up a first born child.

    “I pulled Moses aside and asked him, ‘Why am I not playing more?’” Barkley recalled on Sunday.

    Malone turned, looked him up and down and declared, “You’re fat and you’re lazy, that’s why. You can’t play basketball if you’re not in shape.”

    This really makes me wish someone would pick up Winning Time and turn it into a Game of Thrones style epic saga of 80’s basketball. Imagine the map popping around the US, stopping in Boston, Philly, Detroit, Houston, LA, bringing all these epic teams to life. And as all these tribes battle for control of Westeros, we follow the tale of young Michael Jordan biding his time til his dragons are mature.

    Alan, can you make this happen?

    for the record…. barkley was in excellent shape most of his career.. yes that is true… but he was not some adonis type of athlete where michelango was chiseling his statue… he was fat in college.. every scout and nba gm called him fat during the draft… that was his reputation…. hence the nickname… he had borderline eating disorders throughout his career that he had to work really hard to curb to the point that he would do mcdonalds commercials and eat a burger for the cameras and then have to spit it out…. everything that barkley had described his career was a lot of hard work and discipline to keep in the shape that it is in… and every evidence that we have before and after his pro career points to that fact as well….

    once he stopped playing and his body wouldn’t burn through as many calories.. it started becoming a problem for him… his weight gain and loss is well documented… that he looked as good as he did wasn’t because he was born that way… it’s because he worked very VERY hard… and he’s one of the few that overcame this very big obstacle…

    other guys like him… short big.. like to eat… don’t work nearly as hard.. and/or aren’t nearly as good… and they fail because of it…. we had two guys like that in eddy curry and mike sweetney and there’s a ton of those kinds of stories in the nba….

    Oh, thank the lord: https://nypost.com/2023/11/15/sports/mark-jackson-loses-msg-job-after-knicks-ban-him-from-plane/

    Here’s the back story

    Oh, thank the lord: https://nypost.com/2023/11/15/sports/mark-jackson-loses-msg-job-after-knicks-ban-him-from-plane/

    I have to say, I’m not a huge Jackson fan in the booth even though I loved the ESPN team, but if you look back at the source of the problem, you would think Jackson would have a much bigger problem with Erman than the other way around. I would have fired Erman’s sorry ass too.

    The only year that I was fat was my last year in Houston,

    So your argument for barkley being fat all the time is a quote where he says the only time he was fat was the final year he was in houston? When he was in his 30’s and at the end of his career.

    You win DJ! I said he was never fat and in fact Barkley was FAT for a few weeks his rookie year and at the very end of his career!

    You win the internet today!

    With Jackson out, Wally Szczerbiak is filling in for Frazier as MSG’s game analyst.

    We were damned either way.

    No to Zion. Mitch would be really stretched thin up front trying to cover the C and the PF lol. At least Randle plays defense SOMEtimes. KAT too, for that matter. You can tell Zion’s leg injuries have him shook on defense, unless it’s a weak side block or something. His ability is tantalizing though. But adding him would cause too much adjustment and we don’t know if he can stay healthy for a whole season yet- which is troubling because this is his 5th season. One of which he missed the entire season.

    I just watched Obi’s highlight reel from last night. He did an excellent job of slashing, catching, and finishing in halfcourt…mostly not dunks but close to the rim. He also scored running out in transition. Seems like Phily’s D just couldn’t catch up to Indy’s pace.

    You win DJ! I said he was never fat and in fact Barkley was FAT for a few weeks his rookie year and at the very end of his career!

    seriously do you want to keep doing this?

    Back in my day we had a hard salary cap so you could not go over the salary cap like you can today and the Sixers had the No. 5 pick in the draft. I left college after three years and in fairness, I was fat in college. I played at 300 pounds. The Sixers called me a month before the draft and said, “We want you to get down to 285 pounds and come in before the draft.” So I get down to 283 and the night before we fly into Philly my agent said, “You do know if the Sixers draft you they are going to give you $75,000, right?” I said, “Dude, I didn’t leave college for $75,000. We have a problem.” He said, “You weigh about 283 now. What do you want to do? You beat their weight limit.” I said, “Let’s go out.”

    “I was lazy,” Barkley acknowledges at the Four Seasons. “First of all, you don’t know you’re lazy until you move to the next level. Your level of laziness is dictated by your level of success. Think about it. I’m 300 pounds, but I’m leading the SEC in rebounding. So, like, I don’t fuckin’ think I’m lazy.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1984/04/23/barkley-the-great-wide-hope/2a499172-1a3a-44ad-bda0-33ab51c9e68f/

    As Barkley, a junior from Auburn, said earlier this week in addressing the popular topic of his weight: “I really don’t eat that much. I just, more or less, tend to eat all the time. If I could go into a room and peel some of this stuff off of me, I’d come out looking like Hercules.”

    Barkley’s weight and early reputation for poor work habits worried Auburn Coach Sonny Smith.

    “I was afraid his reputation would hurt his chances for making the team,” Smith said, “Which is why I was reluctant to join in the talk about his weight and his eating. His attitude has improved.”

    I have to say, I’m not a huge Jackson fan in the booth even though I loved the ESPN team, but if you look back at the source of the problem, you would think Jackson would have a much bigger problem with Erman than the other way around. I would have fired Erman’s sorry ass too.

    Not going to make a huge deal out of this, but it’s just yet another one of those Dolan-y and/or Knicks-y things that other organizations don’t have to deal with.

    The Knicks very rarely just play things normal or straight. There’s always some kind of exhausting angle. Other teams hire backup color announcers and put them in the booth. The Knicks somehow, someway concoct something or another to wind up managing … to not do that.

    I’m so happy this Mark Jackson business fell through for whatever weird reason. I prefer Wally to him. At least Wally doesn’t come with all the smugness. Give Darren Erman a lifetime extension.

    RJ still questionable with a migraine. Never had one, is this normal or uh should he maybe get an MRI or something?

    and thank goodness we will not have to endure mark jackson’s voice/words this basketball season…

    god is good…

    there was some ‘ol miss football player that had a recording of a conversation between him and lane kiffin…

    he’s suing ‘ol miss for millions based off of a private conversation…

    um, could speak more clearly in to the mic please…

    That’s quite a strange story about Jackson.

    I prefer Wally so this works for me. Wally is at least likable despite being totally dopey as an analyst. Jackson just makes my skin crawl.

    the pompey report on the oubre investigation starts out with a mundane “we’re having trouble finding the guilty driver” and suddenly veers into “we’re not definitively saying he made the whole thing up”

    Surveillance footage recovered so far in the alleged hit-and-run that injured 76ers forward Kelly Oubre Jr. shows no evidence that a crash occurred at the Center City intersection where Oubre reported being hit on Saturday night, police said.

    Whoa, this is crazy if true.

    https://www.inquirer.com/news/kelly-oubre-jr-hit-car-76ers-police-evidence-20231115.html

    The story also acknowledges that initial police reports for cases like this often provide information contradicted by evidence, for innocuous reasons, like a victim being too distracted by their injuries to remember the exact location where something happened. That said, Oubre was found at the spot where the accident allegedly occurred, so unless he forgets stumbling there from a block or two away, then something seems fishy.

    well…we can have a contest to see who can guess the actual story and when it finally comes to light…see who came closest to guessing it correctly…

    damn sounds like poor oubre may have got rolled…maybe he was out living like kick ass…

    my second guess would be he got roughed up by an escort…

    third – drugs, most fucked up weird shit is almost always drugs or booze related…or sex, guess number two…

    i would go with your #2 as well geo…and the dude looked like a lady…as per Steven Tyler

    Wow, that is kind of nuts. I’d lean towards Alan’s hypothesis but excited to see how this turns out.

    The injuries are real right?

    If he had a head injury anything would be possible.

    Based on what we know so far, I think it’s mildly more likely he made up a story to hide what really happened to avoid embarrassment.

    I’m going to guess he’s having an elicit affair with Dwight Howard and they went out to score some sex enhancing drugs. He got beat up by a female escort drug dealer and Howard ran away. That covers almost all bases.

    could have crashed a scooter or hoverboard or something nearby, which are prohibited in the uniform player contract. think the limes et al are still banned in philly, but still a possibility.

    what’s funny is that these guys don’t realize there a like cameras on every corner (didn’t he see any of the Jason Bourne movies)…so now he is going to say it was another intersection and they’ll go to that one and say “um…nope big guy…wasn’t that one either” and then eventually the insurance company is going to come down on him and he’ll have to fess up…

    I’m not going to speculate on whatever actually happened, assuming it’s not the innocuous answer that he mixed up certain details because he was badly injured at the time. But as Pepper notes, there are cameras everywhere now, especially when you’re in a swanky downtown part of a major metropolitan city, like Oubre was found. So if, say, he was involved in an incident somewhere else and then taken there, there will either be footage of him being dropped off, footage from where it really happened, or both. If he was up to something he shouldn’t have been, it’s going to come out.

    I wonder if the players didn’t want Jackson on the plane for some reason. Maybe he literally preaches to them if he gets the opportunity and they don’t like it. So MSG stepped in.

    I was on a tour one time years ago and it was a big touring party. Something like 20 people traveling every day. The guy who was the tour manager was a nice guy for the most part, he meant well. But he had just the most insufferable personality ever. He would make the most painfully unfunny jokes, tell pointless anecdotes that went nowhere, and generally just ruin every conversation he would participate in. That’s how I imagine Mark Jackson. You’re just so bummed if he’s in the seat next to you on the plane.

    I have no idea if this is the actual reality but he just strikes me as that kind of cat.

    RJ may have been hit by the same invisible car as Oubre. Would explain the migraines in a non-postmenstral adult male.

    ha, he’s such a dick they wouldn’t let him on the plane…this one will live on…

    from what i read, they would have kept him if he had made other arrangements – not sure if this is the players, the front office, or dolan…maybe all three…

    yeah….really…donnie..who knows anyone that has migraines after puberty….further…my best friend who had them when we were kids…didn’t have them for like days…it was one day and then a yr later another day….the “migraines” diagnosis is fishy….also…do I win a prize for last post of the pre-game day thread?

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