[news.google.com] — Thursday, August 10, 2023 7:05:19 AM
NBA News: Josh Hart Agrees to Extension with New York Knicks Last Word On Sports
[news.google.com] — Thursday, August 10, 2023 4:00:28 AM
Knicks Trade For Suns’ Deandre Ayton In Bold Proposal NBA Analysis Network
[news.google.com] — Thursday, August 10, 2023 3:46:00 AM
“They would be a god”: Gilbert Arenas is perplexed why Trae Young is not getting the respect he deserves after owning New York Sportskeeda
[news.google.com] — Thursday, August 10, 2023 12:09:00 AM
Knicks: Evan Fournier suffers injury amid bid to bolt New York ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:45:00 PM
Gilbert Arenas fires back at Hawks’ Trae Young disrespect with Luka … ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 10:46:54 PM
Knicks’ RJ Barrett Scores 12 For Canada in Loss to Germany (Highlights) Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 10:32:16 PM
Knicks Not Retiring Melo Jersey: ‘F***ed Up!’ Says Arenas Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 6:20:42 PM
Who are the youngest NBA players in history? NBA.com
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 6:01:46 PM
Do the New York Knicks have a bright future? | Good Word with Goodwill Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 5:15:08 PM
Barrett Shoots, Fournier Sits in World Cup Prep Games – Knicks & NBA Tracker Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 1:06:03 PM
NBA: Utah Jazz at New York Knicks | NBA Basketball | wfmz.com 69News WFMZ-TV
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 12:34:06 PM
Josh Hart, Knicks agree to four-year, $81 million extension FOX Sports
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 12:32:45 PM
Ian Begley reacts to Knicks and Josh Hart finalizing contract extension, previews what’s next for Immanuel Quickley Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 12:20:00 PM
Breaking News Now: Knicks, Josh Hart finalizing $81 million extension New York Post
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:51:18 AM
Knicks G Josh Hart agrees to 4-year, $81M extension The Albany Herald
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:38:00 AM
Josh Hart agrees to four-year extension with Knicks: Report WCBS 880
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:25:00 AM
NBA Immaculate Grid answers for August 9 Sportskeeda
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 11:18:00 AM
Josh Hart finalizing 4-year, $81 million extension with Knicks – ESPN ESPNJosh Hart, Knicks reportedly agree on 4-year, $81M extension New York Daily NewsReports: Knicks, Josh Hart finalizing 4-year extension NBA.com
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 10:00:28 AM
Jalen Brunson-Knicks disrespect continues with suspect top point guards list Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 9:12:35 AM
Knicks Trade For Hawks’ De’Andre Hunter In Bold Proposal NBA Analysis Network
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, August 9, 2023 7:52:29 AM
“Imma make it hard for y’all in LA” – Iman Shumpert recalls Baron Davis sending out a threat towards LeBron James and the Miami Heat Basketball Network
54 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.08.10)”
I know JR is doing well with golf/college, but did Beno have to accept the job as head coach of the G-League’s Wisconsin Herd? You gotta look at that.
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/272713/Beno-Udrih-Hired-By-Bucks-As-G-League-Head-Coach
Not sure I get the issue regarding Udrih taking that job. What am I missing? (Seems I’m always missing something here.)
That is so true Donnie and that movie came out 45 years ago!
Robertson always came off as a bit of a pretentious douche, but you can’t deny his songwriting skills. And I didn’t realize reading his obit that Clapton once asked to join the band and they said thanks but no thanks!
Initial thoughts on the Josh Hart deal.
I think it’s a fair price and I have no problem paying market fair prices for good role players. I do wish it was maybe one year less though.
But you gotta think about Brunson in all of this. Hart is his boy. We want to attract another star, etc…but keeping Mr. Brunson happy is top priority for this organization because he is a budding superstar and he’s the best point guard we’ve had since probably Rod Strickland/Mark Jackson.
And he’s a damn good player. He gets us out in transition. He competes on every possession. He plays good defense, rebounds well. Shooting could be better but he’s not bad. All in all, it’s a good deal for us, if a slight overpay.
The only issue I have with the Hart extension–and it is a minor one and probably hindsight doing the talking here–is that we both gave up an asset (the 1st, not Cam) and gave him a slight overpay. I rationalise this by thinking that foregoing that 1RP was the cost of ensuring a great last part of the season. Perhaps even avoiding a complete teardown.
Did Beno have to pass on giving JR Smith the chance to be the head coach of the Wisconsin Herd?
You got to look at that.
Strictly talking about athleticism and non-shooting skills “capacity,” the guy that comes to my mind in thinking about 32 yo Josh Hart is 32 yo Russell Westbrook. It’s hard to compare them because their “priorities” have been so different….at 32, Russ was still a ball-hogging triple-double machine…his athleticism hardly dropped off compared to his MVP years. Hart seems like that kind of electric athlete that should continue to be a live wire for the duration of this contract unless he sustains a significant injury. I have every confidence that he will be much the same player at the end of this deal as he is now.
That doesn’t mean that I think it’s a great deal…$20+M AAV is a lot for a borderline starter. I’m just not worried about a dropoff from his career numbers due to his age.
To me the big question about Hart is whether he’s the 33-34% three-point shooter he was for much of his career, or the 37% shooter he was in the second half of 2021-22 (and overall last year, based on his nutso 52% shooting for us).
He brings so many positive intangibles to the table, if he can shoot 36% or better he’s a good bet to be well worth the money. If not, YMMV…
Blaming Beno is a big part of what we do, you can’t just kick it to the curb
I think you look at it as Hart & Donte for a 1st & overpay. We got Hart on a cheapo 1yr extension which let us sign DD without triggering the tax. To compensate we’re overpaying Hart the 4yrs after.
I still want to see the final details of the deal before I make a final call.
As to BE’s concern, this has been gone over ad nauseum. The odds that we could have both not traded for him AND signed him are quite low, so the price paid for him is not an issue at all. And the calculation at the time of the trade was that the DAL pick would convey.
Even if one looks at the trade cynically, there’s no denying that having him around for the stretch run and playoffs lifted the perception of the franchise, and that alone justified locking him in at the cost of a lottery-protected pick.
Some here feel that players “like” Josh Hart are easily acquired after you lock in a group of stars, so it would have been better to pass on him, drafting someone, and then finding a lower cost option to play the Josh Hart role. I very much disagree with that opinion. Josh Hart is a pretty unique talent imho, and regardless of where he settles in stats-wise, he’s literally a perfect fit on this team.
Another reason why I love Hart on this team is that he’s a viable plan B for RJ in the event that he’s either traded or plays poorly.
Zman, spot on. Thibs is forced to keep starting RJ regardless of how he plays but Hart sits him down during last 6-8 minutes of games which positively effects outcome.
Does next year’s draft project to be a deep one? Looks like we’ll have two picks outside of the lottery.
RJ played well in an exhibition vs. Germany, 5-10, 2-4 from 3, 12 points. Should be a very competitive tournament, lots of NBA players on the top 5-6 teams.
so we overpaid on the Hart trade to have the privilege to overpay a free agent who’s not even starting and to overpay on the extension for another guy who’s not even starting? that about sums it up? this is locking up the 7th and 8th guys in the rotation for 4 and 5 years and they might not even break 25mpg….
i was hoping the 4/80 rumors were including the opt-in year but that was more wishful than anything… this 5/95 is just bananas…. hart’s a good player but even he swings from +1 to -1bpm and does so on the slimmest of variations in his play….
he’s for the most part an average player who’s not even playing the minutes to justify this contract who will be 33 in the final year…. very low probability that this works out….
it’s not good altho that generally is more a reflection of the top guys and the ceiling and hype is much lower than other guys… not having bronny sort of puts a damper on things both at looking at the draft’s strengths and the fact that he might not get a chance play again….
but a year can change a lot of things… the back half of the first tends to homogenize year to year so it’s not a big deal unless things goes off the rails…. i didn’t think we could’ve gotten anyone with the late picks but we wound up having a shot at a lotto pick and probably would’ve had a chance at whitmore too…. so a lot of things can happen….
i am in a world of shit – private pyle
sans totally inconsistent RJ – i’m super excited to see our team out on the court next year…
not expecting 82 – 0, but i think we’ll see around 46 to 50 wins next season…
jalen, grimes, RJ, julius, mitch followed by quik, hart, DDV, ihart…
that’s a group of average to better than average nba players…
AND – they are gonna be wearing our laundry – yay 🙂
That was my concern, as well. But I was told emphatically by Noble and his cohorts that these concerns were eradicated after Hart hit a three pointer in the 2nd quarter of the 70th game of the 2022-23 season.
For you to not be fully behind this move makes you a hater and you are just irrationally committed to the bit.
Jalen feels like the best point guard since Clyde. Not a high bar but it’s something.
I know what the collective “we” think of Mark Jackson now, but truth be told, he was pretty damn good for us for a few years.
I follow the draft pretty closely and there was no one I was all that enamored with at #23. Sensabaugh and Miller are intriguing, but I have my doubts that in hindsight I’ll have wished we took one of them rather than locked up Josh Hart, which was never going to happen if we didn’t make the trade for reasons too obvious to belabor.
If someone available at #23 or later blows up, I’ll be here to take my lumps. Right now I feel very good about the trade.
FWIW, I do not think anything Hart did in game 70 of the regular season justifies the trade. However there’s a much more compelling case when it comes to his absolutely stellar playoff series against the team with the 2nd best net rating in the NBA. Just my two cents.
“Owensays:
August 10, 2023 at 14:30
Jalen feels like the best point guard since Clyde. Not a high bar but it’s something.”
Very true. More importantly, he’s the best PG on any good team the Knicks have had since Clyde. And certainly the most rootable player since the Ewing era (although some would say David Lee is stiff competition…)
Yeah, right. Because we still would have picked 23rd if we didn’t make the Josh Hart trade.
Why even try that?
And what about this? 😀
https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/status/1689707766808518656
Happy 58th Birthday to John Starks!!! 🎂
That was approximately the time you declared that the trade was an unequivocal success and that everyone who wasn’t fully on board with the trade had been soundly defeated and was just committing to a schtick, give or take a few games.
Not that I am weirdly obsessive or anything.
“I follow the draft pretty closely and there was no one I was all that enamored with at #23. Sensabaugh and Miller are intriguing, but I have my doubts that in hindsight I’ll have wished we took one of them rather than locked up Josh Hart, which was never going to happen if we didn’t make the trade for reasons too obvious to belabor.”
I will once again remind you that we would not have been drafting at #23 without Josh Hart. We went 17-6 in his first 23 games before locking in the #5 playoff spot. He was a HUGE factor in those games, putting up superstar numbers for the first 15 games or so before leveling out a bit.
I still vastly prefer trading the pick for Hart, but using the #23 as a barometer is just not accurate.
I’m not terribly inclined to believe the people who thought Hart was a MLE player have a good grasp on his value
There’s been some discussion about the inevitable expansion draft coming down the pike, possibly as early as the 2025 offseason. It will be interesting to see how that plays out, and I wonder if front offices are factoring that into decision-making yet…
Mark Jackson was indeed fun and rootable but he only averaged like 12 ppg in his first 5 years with us and was equally bad on D. There were things that annoyed me about Jax, but he was definitely fun for a while. Brunson seems head and shoulders above him.
Thanks DJ
This, ultimately, is the best metric for comparison. Marbury had a few excellent on-paper seasons here, for instance, but what did that accomplish for anyone?
We were talking about whether it made sense to go all-in for Embiid if he became available. This note from an article in The Athletic about potential Hall of Fame players nicely sums up the totality of concerns and opportunities:
“He’s played just 394 career games, but he’s already a two-time scoring champion, made five All-NBA teams and finished in the top two of MVP voting three times.”
I also appreciated this line:
“Harden might be the first Hall of Famer to demand a trade from the institution”
The addiction to pessimism porn is often real on this site.
I fully understand the effects of long history of losing trades. However, let’s just enjoy the present without spending every waking moment to come up with possiblities of how this will implode and/or over estimating the opportunity cost of each W.
KNICKS WON THE JOSH HART TRADE
SIGNED CAPTAIN AMERICA FOR DIRT CHEAP
EXTENDED AN ALL-NBA PLAYER FOR DIRT CHEAP
EXTENDED A TOP 10 CENTER IN EASTERN CONFERENCE FOR DIRT CHEAP.
DRAFTED 6MOY FINALIST IN LATE FIRST ROUND
DRAFTED A LEGIT TWO-WAY NBA STARTER IN LATE FIRST ROUND
These are all Ws. If we must, we can discuss the margin of victory of each move…or just take the Ws and enjoy them because we understand their value.
I don’t think he comes across as a douche at all. He had talent and an ambition that transcended simply making enough money to afford heroin. Sure, he had some vanity, but he was, literally, hand picked by Bob Dylan to escalate a social movement. What’s wrong with wanting to look good and sound cool in public while you’re at it? (plus, if talent + vanity = douchiness then isn’t our beloved Clyde Frazier not the douchiest of them all?)
1. Josh Hart’s value > Intrinsic value of the pick we gave up. So unless you still think Cam Reddish can develop into a solid rotation player the Hart deal was fine. Even if you haven’t given up on Reddish, the way we handled him made it impossible salvage any value.
2. Josh Hart’s extension is fair
3. Josh Hart made the team better last year and will likely continue to do so for the duration of his contract
4. Josh Hart makes Jalen Brunson happy. That alone has value.
5. Brunson/Hart made signing DDV way more likely
6. DDV makes the Knicks deeper and better
7. DDV’s contract is fair
8. IMO, there is no conversation here.
Thank you Strat. Preach on, brother.
There is zero reason to take any lumps if the 23rd pick (or whatever it would have been without Hart) blows up. That pick had intrinsic value at the time of the deal based on what typically comes from that slot in the draft. That’s the end of the analysis. What it turns into later is random nonsense that should be totally ignored. The one exception would be if there was someone available there that everyone was screaming and yelling was worth way more than the 23rd pick (or whatever) and that player did go on to blow up.
Turns out the last year is a team option for $22.3M. So it’s 3/$58M guaranteed.
That’s a very nice contract, sorry if this offends.
Yeah, that’ll work for me.
Take into consideration his opt in it’s basically a 4yr-71m deal.
Team option makes such a big difference. I was happy with the deal prior to that bit of news – it’s just added insurance for the team and added incentive for the player.
Hart seems like the kind of guy who will make it a point to earn that last year.
By AAV we don’t have a single guy in the Top 50 – according to https://www.spotrac.com/nba/contracts/
It eliminates one of the two years that we’ll most likely regret, so that’s nice. It’s still a pretty steep price.
Essentially we’re using all the surplus value from the Jalen Brunson contract on Josh Hart.
Bobby Marks noted on Twitter that the Knicks are one of just 6 teams not to have a max contract on their books for the 24-25 season. The others being Utah, San Antonio, Detroit, Orlando and Washington.
With all the advanced science and the way current athletes take care of their bodies we’re supposed to regret giving a player 20m in their age 31-32 season cause they’d be in serious decline by then???
The thing about our beloved Clyde is that he is a brilliant mix of talent + vanity + humility.
That last bit, completely real and not a bit faked, makes all the difference.
Take into consideration his opt in it’s basically a 4yr-71m deal
yeah 4/71 with a team option seems like a solid outcome. strus got 4/63 with no team option and harrison barnes got 3/54.
He doesn’t have to be in serious decline to be on a bad contract.
And the Strus, Barnes deals aren’t exactly enviable.
The trickle down effect of this lavish spending on two bench players is most likely going to be negative for Grimes and Quickley, two players I prefer to their expensive counterparts. This will likely cannibalize their production, minimizing the impact of the dollars spent. It may even lead to their departures.
Looking a little forward, there’s absolutely no way the Knicks are going to pay serious luxury tax penalties for IQ & Grimes.
What this means then, I think, is that Leon’s counting on next summer being the time for the big move, and he’s planning on IQ & Grimes being part of his package. If it works, these deals will look great. If it doesn’t, the house of cards is gonna fall.
Dillon Brooks signed a 4yr-86m deal.
I kept reading how the new CBA would increase salary inequality among NBA players, but a lot of good role players are getting substantial deals.
I thought we overpaid Julius back when and now he’s got the 48th highest salary in the league, between DeMar DeRozen and Jordan Poole.
“Bobby Marks noted on Twitter that the Knicks are one of just 6 teams not to have a max contract on their books for the 24-25 season. The others being Utah, San Antonio, Detroit, Orlando and Washington.
Seems like another clever move by this FO. We’re projected to be a top 10-ish team and don’t have anything even close to a max contract. Seems like they have exploited a market inefficiency….building a rotation of players either on rookie deals or making 20% of the cap or less and saving draft picks for capital when a suitable star player shakes loose. And if that doesn’t happen, we’ll just have to suffer through some 45-50 win seasons.
Wow, that is big on Hart’s deal.
I’d rather have an elite player but Leon is executing pretty damn well on the “good players at market value or less contracts” strategy.