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[news.google.com] — Sunday, July 23, 2023 8:24:04 AM
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86 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.07.24)”
All right, I’ll go first. Embiid. For some strange reason not my favorite superstar, perhaps because like Superman he’s so inevitable that it takes a bit of the fun out of things. Don’t have strong feelings, though.
Regardless, anyone think he and Julius can play on the same team? They both have somewhat similar destructive bully styles. I tend to think yes, you can have two such players on the same team, although it would help if you surrounded them with the Curry brothers.
What will it take to get Embiid? Let’s assume we’re on his list of five teams he’ll play for, along with the Lakers, Heat, Bulls, and for the sake of argument OKC.
I think Embiid can play on a team with pretty much anyone given that he’s the 2nd best player in the NBA. Julius will just have to focus more on shooting 3s.
If Embiid is the guy, you back up the truck for him. He’s worth almost any possible asking price that doesn’t leave the team bereft of guys who can win you a chip.
I’d immediately say yes to IQ, RJ, Grimes, 5 of our firsts, and a couple swaps.
RJ, IQ or Grimes (not both), Mitch and 5 firsts, the latest of these top 2 protected and I’m in. Leaves you with a contender, as long as everyone stays healthy, and Philly gets 3 young starters and a boatload of pics.
Repost from last night:
I encourage all to watch Goliath, a new Showtime 3-part documentary on Wilt. It goes deeply into both the man and his times in a way that transcends the sport and adds depth to the myths and realities. Very well done and highly worth watching. One interesting aspect of the show is how they use silhouette puppetry to play out various vignettes as the narrator speaks.
I’m also watching The Bear, and an HBO documentary series entitled Last Call: When a Serial Killer Stalked Queer New York. Both are riveting.
I suppose you have to go all in for Embiid if he becomes available, but it doesn’t really excite me. He just doesn’t seem to have the ability to stay healthy for a 100 game season, and the tail end of his deal might get ugly.
I realized that my proposed trade leaves our rotation short, so you probably keep Grimes and/or IQ and make up the difference in picks or engineer another trade to shore up the back of the rotation.
Kind of funny that Dolan was the only dissenting vote in the Charlotte sale.
I’m putting Grimes in the make-believe Embiid trade. So that results in:
Embiid/iHart/Sims
Randle/random flotsam
JHart/DD
IQ/DD/JHart
Brunson/IQ/Deuce
Kind of weird little mix. I feel like that’s only a true contender if IQ makes a really significant leap…
I don’t see how Embiid and Randle coexist around the rim. Why not Mitch/Randle+picks??
There are a lot of red flags surrounding Embiid’s mental makeup. The guy is great and he would take us to another level but I feel certain he will always disappoint.
Hubert, red flags galore in his physical makeup to remain injury-free, but curious on your take as to what those mental red flags are. Other than actually liking Philly.
I don’t understand why Embiid’s teams aren’t more successful. He’s had big talent that is theoretically complementary around him, dominant scorer and defensive anchor. Just bad luck? Health? Even if you subtract the games Embiid didn’t play last year, 76ers were just 43-23, a 53 win pace. That’s good, don’t get me wrong (NBA champs had that same pace) but traditionally it’s not the kind of pace you’d expect from an MVP with a pretty solid supporting cast.
Full disclosure: I’m plagiarizing NFL reporter/Sixers superfan Michael Lombardi.
He’s out of shape, he doesn’t work hard, he runs away from challenges, he’s been coddled throughout his career, he’s soft as charmin, and “ex teammates think he’s a pussy” (that was a direct quote from ML).
Red flags I have seen that support this: he was visibly gassed in game 7 against the Celtics. Could not keep up w the intensity.
Lastly, and perhaps most significantly, he participated in running Jimmy Butler out of town. If you don’t want Jimmy Butler on your team, that right there tells me enough.
If you can get the reigning MVP you should do it
He also threw Ben Simmons under the bus during game 7, and piled on after in the press conference.
I know Ben Simmons is no one’s favorite, and Doc Rivers gets most of the heat for what went down, but Embiid was right there in the middle of it, during a winnable game, punking his own teammate.
The MVP award was a joke, the illegitimate result of voter fatigue and an embarrassing self-promotion campaign.
Sure, but it’s not the first time that’s happened and you should still get him
Thanks Hubert. Good points. Nice to see a very reasoned response backed up by the correct use of italics.
Embiid has his red flags, but there are some guys you simply have to get in the building if you get the chance provided you have some semblance of a team around them. Brunson would be arguably the best teammate Embiid has ever had aside from the half-season Jimmy Butler fever dream, and maybe playing with usage soakers like Brunson and Randle has Embiid fresher for the playoffs. Or maybe not, but you take the risk.
Whatever our line in the sand is for a trade package in general should be our line in the sand for Embiid. Ideally we keep IQ, though it’s quite possible, probably likely, that Morey tells us to piss off until we’re willing to include him.
RJ, Mitch, Grimes, 2024 NYK, all 3 WAS/DET/MIL picks, 2025 swap, 2026 NYK, 2027 swap, 2028 NYK.
We go to war with Brunson, IQ, Hart, Randle, Embiid, DDV, iHart, Deuce and/or Rokas. Probably not a contender immediately, but make enough smart moves at the margins and we’d be an absolute handful.
To my knowledge this is pretty much the polar opposite of the truth. Butler had an issue with Brown running the offense through Ben Simmons (talk about being vindicated…). Embiid and Butler have effusively praised each other ever since that season, with Embiid openly criticizing the decision to let him go and Butler saying he thinks Embiid is the MVP.
I think if you basically switch out Jimmy Butler for James Harden, you’re stuck in the purgatory mezzanine no matter how good you are.
Interestingly, one of the original definitions of purgatory is a place you await purification so you can ascend to heaven. Not so bad, even from the mezzanine…
I’m betting Morey demands more unprotected Knicks picks. Definitely the furthest out. It’s more likely we keep the protected picks and they get the unprotected NYK picks, if we keep any at all.
You can run Deuce out there with the 2nd unit if you move IQ and hope he figures out how to shoot.
I would think Giannis should be the ultimate main target.
Embiid is hilarious. That’s a green flag (or what ever the opposite of a red flag is, given the metaphor).
And, Hubert, didn’t you pitch for Kyrie not long ago. As far as red flags go, he’s got just a wee bit more than the 2nd hand ones you posted about Embiid, no?
I’m probably a bit on the no side of neutral re: Embiid. Even though he’s clearly a top 5 player in the league when he’s healthy, he is often gimpy and isn’t getting any younger. I would rather overpay for him than to have overpaid for Spida, but there’s still just too much risk to have a capped out team with no trade assets left. Not to mention that we’d be even more iso-heavy and slow-paced.
If the move is made, sure, I’d be kinda excited and hoping we get at least a couple of finals appearances and a chip out of it. But it would be far from guaranteed, mostly because of Embiid’s injury-proneness.
Que sera sera….
You may recognize the name from a random post of mine from 2019 (kidding).
Starting to become hard to keep track of who we have on two-ways vs non-guaranteed regular contracts. I think we have to either cut one of Keels/Martin/Knight or convert their contract to a regular one now?
We definitely have 4 now. I’m betting on Knight getting cut and signed to the g-league unless they can sign and immediately cut Windler instead
Yeah, fuck Embiid, we’ve got Windler!
Seriously though, Windler has had some bad injury luck, but if he’s healthy and in shape, he’s a terrific shooter off the bench with decent size and defensive ability.
According to Bobby Marks we can’t sign Windler to a 2-way contract, because he has 4 years of service time.
Katz and others are still saying it’s a 2-way.
Keels and Knight are on regular 1-year deals apparently.
“Starting to become hard to keep track of who we have on two-ways vs non-guaranteed regular contracts. I think we have to either cut one of Keels/Martin/Knight or convert their contract to a regular one now?”
This sounds correct. I have a feeling that they are going to convert Knight. Keels and Martin are both just 19. Windler doesn’t really fill a need. Knight seems like a very adequate Obi replacement and there’s really no one like him on the 15-man roster. But who knows?
Windler only has 3yrs of service. I believe this deal will be allowed as his 4th and final year.
We can’t have both Keels & Knight on regular deals unless we cut someone else
Katz previously reported Keels on a 2-way when he had checked with the league. Idk why they’d change that since he’s not 20 yet and probably just plays for Westchester anyways
The major risks with Embiid are obviously his health and having to deal with Morey.
Windler is eligible for a two-way, Marks was making the point that normally he wouldn’t be but there’s an exception for players that missed a full season with an injury.
Keels and Martin are nowhere close to ready for prime time, so if Windler is on a two-way maybe we’re giving Knight the final roster spot with whatever we have left under the LT line?
“We definitely have 4 now.”
Windler is not a 4.
We should put baby Toppin on a 2-way just for shots and giggles
I don’t think having all three of Roby, Knight and Sims on the 15-man roster makes much sense. Sims seems like a lock, so my guess is that Sims and Knight will compete for the 15th spot unless a trade happens. I think Knight has more upside than Roby and his game is sort of similar to Randle’s so I hope he gets a good long look in training camp.
Perhaps Knight is a Rosas guy from Minny, so he got a legit contract?
And maybe they are planning a consolidation trade or just waiving Fournier before the season starts (the latter feels very Leon to me.)
“Perhaps Knight is a Rosas guy from Minny, so he got a legit contract?”
I saw that mentioned somewhere, Rosas brought him on board in Minny, so that would make sense. But I don’t see any news indicating that Knight is on anything but a two-way deal. Same with Keels. Where did you see otherwise?
I could definitely see Knight on the big league team.
He clearly outclassed the g-league in the 2 games he played and we could certainly use some 4 insurance if the RJ/Hart experiment doesn’t workout and Roby flops.
Fun fact: Dylan is the only ‘Dylan’ in NBA history
Fred Katz on Twitter (seen through Instagram)
“Fred Katz on Twitter (seen through Instagram)”
I am guessing he worded that clumsily and then clarified that both Keels and Knight are still 2-way deals. It seems that 2-way deals can be for one year or two years, at least that’s what it sounds like. Martin is on a 2-year 2-way deal, whatever that means. So the Knicks will need to convert someone or cut someone to keep Windler on a 2-way. See below:
Fred Katz
@FredKatz
·
55m
Yes, Knight’s contract is a one-year two-way contract, per source
embiid hits the floor – a lot…kinda like anthony davis…
he looks beat up after every game…
i hope julius is healing up well…
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38057483/is-parity-nba-here-stay-new-cba-key
Cohen tweeted that we are waving Keels so he can take a 1.6 mil contract in Saudi Arabia…
I pitched for buying low on Kyrie if stupid, non-basketball things meant we could steal him.
I would never advocate paying sticker price for him.
You’re 100% right about the second hand nature of the red flags. I was pretty up front about that.
If we can get Embiid, you obviously get him. He’s just not someone I’m pining for.
Nothing you presented supports this. “I wish we could have kept him” two years later after losing to him in the playoffs is a meaningless platitude.
Butler got run out of town. Embiid was there and he has massive influence. I don’t have a case beyond where there is smoke there is fire, but that tends to be accurate.
Butler has spoken extensively about the situation in Philly, most notably on JJ Redick’s podcast. Talked about Brett Briwn and the iffy fit with Simmons very candidly. Didn’t say a word about Embiid, and the two have been nothing but complementary of each other ever since that season.
Yeah, Butler has made it overtly clear that he didn’t like the Sixers management. He played 55 games there and wasn’t married to it, so he left. The only red flag from the episode is that Embiid stayed, which shows his judgement may not be as good as Butler’s, but it’s not apples-to-apples. The Sixers drafted Embiid, stuck with him through his early injuries, named their process after him, and cultivated a fan base for him. But, still, the reason this conversation is coming up at all right now is because Embiid may have decided that he doesn’t want to stay.
I’m iffy on embiid mainly bc of injury history, age and how much it will cost but I also realize that I’d you’re turning down embiid you’re pretty much saying there is no perfect player for us to get bc he’s literally a top 5 player in the league.
But there is a part of me that feels like maybe we shouldn’t go all in on any superstar. That maybe the move is to use some of our assets for a couple of really good role player upgrades and just build a super complete team and try to win like the 05 pistons. I think if there’s a time for a team like that to win a title it’s right now bc there are no dominant teams and there is good parity in the league right now. All in moves lately seem to blow up in team’s faces.
We’re already kind of built like that, no? We need more at the top
Celtics too, but with players who are, theoretically, better top to bottom
The Sixers have catered to every whim Joel Embiid has ever had. I doubt the biggest decision of his career was an exception.
But there are no facts here; it’s my smoke signals vs your tea leaves.
Like I said, I’m just not pining for the guy. I think the cost would be too high and the player would disappoint.
Did Dylan Windler ever have a Lord Sumner? I feel like there was a game he randomly killed us a few years back? But they have a bunch of white dudes I confuse.
He played a great ten minutes last year and that’s enough for me.
The NBA is funny right now. There just aren’t that many back-up-the-truck-guys out there. The only guys in the league I would feel good about going after are Giannis and Jokic and Luka and with the latter I might have a smidgen of anxiety due to the defense. I guess SGA might be there too.
I don’t know, the top of the NBA seems a little more dubious than most years.
Put it this way…
If Giannis went to the Heat and signed a 5 year extension, I’d be fine with Embiid.
But I prefer the slight possibility of Giannis to the certainty of Embiid. And I feel that way based on hearsay.
That’s basically it.
I think basically the current generation of superstars is ending. Of the top 10 guys in EPM last year only one (Luka) is under 25, and a bunch of them are really old for NBA stars and/or have concerning injury history (Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Steph, maybe Dame). Luka you can write in with pen as a top 10 guy for the next 5 years as long as he stays healthy, you really can’t with any of the other guys.
Agreed. Just feels strange that there aren’t more great young talents you can bet on.
I’d 100% backup the truck for SGA
Hali & Tatum too
A healthy LaMelo could show he belongs
Maybe Zion can pull an Embiid and stay relatively healthy the rest of his career
Garland could get there
Ja if he can learn to shoot instead of, uh, shoot
Looks like Keels is being waived.
I think I really only feel great about SGA right now. I love Hali but not as a franchise cornerstone max guy. He’s a great player no doubt but not a tier 1 guy.
It’s hilariously soul-crushing how we could’ve easily drafted both those guys.
Hali is being underrated playing in Indy and missing a large part of the season
He was 15th in EPM and 8th in BPM
He was 1st in ast/36 (2nd in apg) if he qualified for rate stats
Only Harden & Trae were 20pts & 10ast, he had a better TS% than Harden and (obviously) Trae
A better than 4:1 AST:TO ratio
He’s 22 and maybe the best PG in the league
When Hali can average 30ppg on 50% shooting against the Miami Heat in the 2nd rd of the playoffs then I’ll be impressed.
“He’s 22 and maybe the best PG in the league”
I like Hali a lot, but not ready to put him in the HOF just yet, or anoint him best PG in the league. Give me SGA 7 days a week and twice on Sunday matinees. BTW Hali is 23…although to be fair he was born on February 29 so technically he’s only had 5 birthdays thus far…
Seems like the Knicks don’t think a whole lot of Keels…or do they have some way to keep him even though they are waiving him? Sounds like they retain his G-League rights…whatever that means…is it like he is some weird kind of RFA?
Brunson, SGA backcourt would be pretty incredible.
Of our four reported two ways, Windler is 26, Knight is 25, Martin is 19 and Keels is 19. Knight fills a need at power forward and I can see signing him for that. Martin looks like he has a lot of upside and is like having a draft pick you didn’t actually draft. But I would like to be convinced that a 26 year old journey man is better for us than a 19 year old who showed a lot of improvement from last summer league to this one. Per Yahoo sports “Windler hasn’t done much as a pro, averaging 3.3 points and 2.3 rebounds while playing less than 12 minutes a game in his 84 career games played. A 40.6 percent three-point shooter at Belmont, Windler has shot just 32.2 percent from beyond the arc in the NBA.”. That doesn’t sound promising to me.
I agree. You know, watching him in summer league, I thought he doesn’t play like most people’s preconceived notion of a point guard or a shooting guard. I think that plays into the team’s evaluation of him even though he was pretty effective in some of the team’s games.
By the way, we don’t have to cut down our roster to its final number until the end of training camp. Are we allowed to have four two way players until then?
My five year old has had a lightbulb-switching-on epiphany and is now obsessed with The Beatles. He’s a full blown Beatlemaniac. I played “Dear Prudence”‘ for him in the car today and he just sat there in stunned silence.
He’ll complain if I play too many John songs in a row or too many Paul songs. He’s sitting on the couch right now playing on his iPad singing “Can’t Buy Me Love” to himself.
This rules.
I know the feeling, JK. Music is a great thing to bond over. And it has worked in reverse for me as well, my kids have turned me on to some stuff. The best time for this is on long road trips, like camp drop-offs and then college tours, etc.
One of my great parenting joys has been the many solo road trips I have taken with each of my three kids, especially since the advent of pandora, spotify, etc. It certainly helps that they are now all diehard Knicks fans!
“I agree. You know, watching him in summer league, I thought he doesn’t play like most people’s preconceived notion of a point guard or a shooting guard. I think that plays into the team’s evaluation of him even though he was pretty effective in some of the team’s games.”
I wonder how much of drafting Keels was hoping that he would morph into some kind of Marcus Smart clone…
Bottom line is, he should have stayed in college for another year or two, maybe he could have eventually snuck into the first round…but he just doesn’t seem like he’s on his way to being a productive player, not for at least 3-4 years.
“By the way, we don’t have to cut down our roster to its final number until the end of training camp. Are we allowed to have four two way players until then?”
I don’t think so…but maybe…good question though!
I’m not gonna check, but fairly certain we can only ever have three 2-ways.
The expanded roster is exhibit-10s and maybe another contract type I’m forgetting
Cutting him means we have zero rights. Don’t know anything about g-league rights but an NBA team can sign a player that’s under contract away from a g-league team. I can’t imagine holding rights reserves more than a contract.
I suspect g-league rights only hold weight if he tries to sign a deal with another g-league team. But he’ll probably only come back to the states for an NBA deal.
Keels was one of the best shooters in the country during HS. He wasn’t in college and wasn’t anything special as a shooter in the g-league.
They could’ve drafted him thinking college was flukish, but the repeated bad year was too much.
More importantly he didn’t look great as a PG in SL despite being solid the last couple of games. If he’s strictly a SG that kills a lot of his upside.
Maybe they think Windler has some Caleb Martin potential. He shot 40% on 3s over 4 his 4 college years so it wasn’t like he was a 1-and-done attempting 50 and declared a shooter.
“But he’ll probably only come back to the states for an NBA deal.”
That comment by Jeremy Cohen was a tongue-in-cheek reference to LIV golf…he wrote $1.6 billion…in other words, I don’t think he’s going anywhere.
“Maybe they think Windler has some Caleb Martin potential. He shot 40% on 3s over 4 his 4 college years so it wasn’t like he was a 1-and-done attempting 50 and declared a shooter.”
More like Max Strus or Duncan Robinson potential….he’s nowhere near the physical athlete that Caleb Martin is…
I just mean whatever 27yo, 2nd act breakout Miami player you want to choose. He seems like a decent candidate for that
“I just mean whatever 27yo, 2nd act breakout Miami player you want to choose. He seems like a decent candidate for that”
Agreed, and yet more evidence suggesting that the Knicks are trying to copy the Heat’s model of team-building to a degree, including finding and developing castoffs. Windler has been oft injured and has not shot anywhere near as well as he did in college….maybe there’s something to unlock there. Same with Knight, and to a lesser degree, Roby and Jeffries. Not that it will work, but it does seem like that’s the idea.
Windler is also a very good rebounder (we have a type), averaging over 7 reb/36 in the NBA and over 10rpg as a college senior
He might not have Caleb’s drive game but he’s probably not as bad athletically as Duncan Robinson
Well, my tea leaves come from Jimmy Butler’s actual mouth, which you can hear yourself if you listen to him say them.
But I understand your position re:Giannis vis-à-vis Embiid. My only issue with it is that I have read threads where the KB consensus is not to trade for Jimmy Butler because of opportunity cost, and not to trade for Damian Lillard because of opportunity cost, and to not trade for Donovan Mitchell because of opportunity cost, etc… But to basically concoct a personality disorder out of nothing about the reigning MVP and outright awesome comedian that is Joel Embiid as part of the systemic Grass Is Always Greener mentality that plagues the KB fanbase really feels like you just don’t really want to be happy with your team.
And I get it. The grass seems like it’s always greener on the other side because is always greener on the other side of the Garden. That’s why I slick my hair back now, and wear a retro Voshon Leonard Jersey, and carry a gigantic foam finger that says “Heat are Number One” with me to work everyday.
EB, Keels shot 34.5% on 5.9 attempts per game in G league last year. It’s not a great number but it’s ok and he was playing point guard. I don’t know what you mean about a repeated year. He’s only played one year in G league. Windler shot 32.2% on 1.8 attempts per game for his three years playing with Cleveland which is significantly worse than Keels and he has enough experience and age that’s probably what he is. I still don’t see any reason to sign him instead of letting Keels develop another year.
Note that if you assume that Keels almost never does a catch and shoot and Windler often does based on the positions they play, that makes the difference in three point shooting ability even bigger
He shot 35% in the regular season but only 26% during the showcase (I have no idea why they separate these). Full season it was only 32%.
His ft% didn’t inspire much more confidence at 71% in the regular season and a much worse 66% over the full-season. I’m a lot less forgiving about the idea of adjusting to an NBA FT line.
He followed that up with shooting 33% from 3 in SL and 40% from the line.
His hype in HS was an elite shooter. If you chalk the Showcase up to adjustment, which is fair, 35% is still below NBA average despite playing in the g-league. Maybe he’s an okay shooter but that’s a big hit to any projection.
And 1 year in college where he shot 31%, so 2 years
I don’t think he was playing PG most of the time. His teammate averaged 6.5apg and was most likely playing point.
He stepped in sometimes, and he’s very savvy in the PnR, but he wasn’t the starting PG and doesn’t seem capable of playing point in the NBA.
I’d love to keep Keels and have a play for the future but he’s not close to ready now.
If Windler finds his shot, then he’s ready now and could find himself in the rotation after injury or the big trade.
I watched Keels in Summer league and he played point guard, so I assumed he did that in Westchester, but you may be right that he didn’t play there all the time. It’s very hard to look that up. The best that I could do was find him listed as “guard”, which wasn’t helpful. But I think NBA average three point shooting percentage is not a reasonable comparison for him. You could be right that the average is 35%, but all I could find in a brief internet survey was that the median three point shooting percentage is 34.2% ( by Luka Doncic who is number 270 in this list of 540 NBA players sorted by three point shooting percentage.)
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=FG3_PCT
By your numbers Keels shot 35% in the regular g league season on pretty high volume and 33% in summer league so that’s kind of median NBA three point shooting. Maybe the summer league number are slightly worse than the regular season ones because most of them came off the dribble. I have no idea why his free throws are so bad though.
Clearly this isn’t great shooting, but he’s nineteen and has been in college one year and g league one year. Windler, on the other hand, is already 26 because he was in college for four years and in the NBA g league for four years with three years mostly in the NBA. He’s not a point guard and still didn’t shoot a lot of threes (unlike Keels) which I assume was at least partly a coaches decision based on what they saw him do in practice. If you like Windler because he can rebound okay, but I can’t agree he has more potential for a breakout as a shooter. I do agree Keels needs more work, but I still don’t understand why the Knicks apparently prefer Windler to him.
So true about music and kids.
Would I even have listened to the Barbie soundtrack without them?