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Knicks Morning News (2023.07.02)

  • Taking less star-filled road could pay off for Knicks – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Sunday, July 2, 2023 2:50:00 AM

    Taking less star-filled road could pay off for Knicks  New York Post

  • Knicks signing Donte DiVincenzo has NBA fans reacting hilariously: “From reassembling the 2010 Bulls to assembling 2016 Villanova” – Sportskeeda
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 11:41:00 PM

    Knicks signing Donte DiVincenzo has NBA fans reacting hilariously: “From reassembling the 2010 Bulls to assembling 2016 Villanova”  Sportskeeda

  • Knicks: Donte DiVincenzo addition has Twitter calling for NY to … – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 11:10:00 PM

    Knicks: Donte DiVincenzo addition has Twitter calling for NY to …  ClutchPoints

  • Is Josh Hart Recruiting Mikal Bridges To Knicks After Donte … – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 10:56:00 PM

    Is Josh Hart Recruiting Mikal Bridges To Knicks After Donte …  ClutchPoints

  • Knicks get their guy, Donte DiVincenzo, so how does he fit with New York? – The Athletic
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 10:52:58 PM

    Knicks get their guy, Donte DiVincenzo, so how does he fit with New York?  The Athletic

  • Jalen Brunson, Josh Hart React to ‘Nova Knicks’ Reunion With Donte DiVincenzo – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 10:18:19 PM

    Jalen Brunson, Josh Hart React to ‘Nova Knicks’ Reunion With Donte DiVincenzo  Sports Illustrated

  • NBA Insider Ian Begley on the Knicks signing free-agent guard Donte DiVincenzo to multi-year deal | Ian Begley – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 9:57:00 PM

    NBA Insider Ian Begley on the Knicks signing free-agent guard Donte DiVincenzo to multi-year deal | Ian Begley  Yahoo Sports

  • Knicks’ Updated Roster, Starting Lineup, Salary Cap After Donte DiVincenzo Contract – Bleacher Report
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 9:28:41 PM

    Knicks’ Updated Roster, Starting Lineup, Salary Cap After Donte DiVincenzo Contract  Bleacher Report

  • Donte DiVincenzo joining the Knicks and his former Villanova teammates on a 4-year deal – The Philadelphia Inquirer
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 9:10:41 PM

    Donte DiVincenzo joining the Knicks and his former Villanova teammates on a 4-year deal  The Philadelphia Inquirer

  • Knicks, Donte DiVincenzo Agree To Four-Year Deal – hoopsrumors.com
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 9:02:00 PM

    Knicks, Donte DiVincenzo Agree To Four-Year Deal  hoopsrumors.com

  • Knicks: Josh Hart shares epic photo after Donte DiVincenzo … – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:55:00 PM

    Knicks: Josh Hart shares epic photo after Donte DiVincenzo …  ClutchPoints

  • Jalen Brunson, Josh Hart React After Knicks Sign Donte DiVincenzo – Heavy.com
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:54:00 PM

    Jalen Brunson, Josh Hart React After Knicks Sign Donte DiVincenzo  Heavy.com

  • Knicks, Donte DiVincenzo Agree to Four-Year Contract, per Report – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:46:34 PM

    Knicks, Donte DiVincenzo Agree to Four-Year Contract, per Report  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks’ Josh Hart Recruits Mikal Bridges to Join Villanova Alums Brunson, DiVincenzo – Bleacher Report
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:42:47 PM

    Knicks’ Josh Hart Recruits Mikal Bridges to Join Villanova Alums Brunson, DiVincenzo  Bleacher Report

  • BREAKING: Warriors Free Agent Signs With Knicks – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:28:45 PM

    BREAKING: Warriors Free Agent Signs With Knicks  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks land Donte DiVincenzo on four-year, $50 million deal, per report – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:25:00 PM

    Knicks land Donte DiVincenzo on four-year, $50 million deal, per report  CBS Sports

  • Donte DiVincenzo, Knicks Agree to 4-Year, $50M Contract; SG Spent 1 Year with GSW – Bleacher Report
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:09:36 PM

    Donte DiVincenzo, Knicks Agree to 4-Year, $50M Contract; SG Spent 1 Year with GSW  Bleacher Report

  • Donte DiVincenzo, Knicks agree on four-year, $50 million contract – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:09:00 PM

    Donte DiVincenzo, Knicks agree on four-year, $50 million contract  ClutchPoints

  • Donte DiVincenzo ‘agrees four-year, $50m New York Knicks deal’ – Daily Mail
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:07:59 PM

    Donte DiVincenzo ‘agrees four-year, $50m New York Knicks deal’  Daily Mail

  • Donte DiVincenzo, Knicks agree on four-year, $50 million deal in Villanova reunion – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:06:00 PM

    Donte DiVincenzo, Knicks agree on four-year, $50 million deal in Villanova reunion  New York Post

  • NBA Free Agency 2023: Warriors Donte DiVincenzo signs with Knicks – Golden State of Mind
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:05:03 PM

    NBA Free Agency 2023: Warriors Donte DiVincenzo signs with Knicks  Golden State of Mind

  • BREAKING: Warriors Ex Donte DiVincenzo Signs With New York … – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:03:55 PM

    BREAKING: Warriors Ex Donte DiVincenzo Signs With New York …  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks to add Donte DiVincenzo on four-year, $50M deal – ESPN – ESPN
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 8:02:00 PM

    Knicks to add Donte DiVincenzo on four-year, $50M deal – ESPN  ESPN

  • Why Haven’t Knicks Signed Donte DiVincenzo Yet? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 5:57:10 PM

    Why Haven’t Knicks Signed Donte DiVincenzo Yet?  Sports Illustrated

  • Report: Indiana Pacers and New Yorks Knicks agree on a trade to … – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 5:16:24 PM

    Report: Indiana Pacers and New Yorks Knicks agree on a trade to …  Sports Illustrated

  • New York Knicks Get Disappointing Return For Former Top 10 Pick – BroBible
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 5:01:39 PM

    New York Knicks Get Disappointing Return For Former Top 10 Pick  BroBible

  • Report: Knicks trading Obi Toppin to Pacers – NBA.com
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 4:29:01 PM

    Report: Knicks trading Obi Toppin to Pacers  NBA.comKnicks, Pacers Finalizing Obi Toppin Trade  hoopsrumors.comKnicks trading Obi Toppin to Pacers for draft picks  New York Post

  • Knicks are trading former lottery pick and fan favorite Obi Toppin to … – WJXT News4JAX
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 4:12:04 PM

    Knicks are trading former lottery pick and fan favorite Obi Toppin to …  WJXT News4JAX

  • Knicks trading Obi Toppin to Pacers for draft compensation – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 3:53:29 PM

    Knicks trading Obi Toppin to Pacers for draft compensation  ClutchPoints

  • Knicks free agency notes: Derrick Rose to Grizzlies; latest on Donte DiVincenzo’s potential signing – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 3:47:58 PM

    Knicks free agency notes: Derrick Rose to Grizzlies; latest on Donte DiVincenzo’s potential signing  Yahoo Sports

  • ‘Hey!’ New York Knicks’ Josh Hart Recruiting Blazers’ Damian Lillard After Trade Request: NBA Free Agency – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 3:47:32 PM

    ‘Hey!’ New York Knicks’ Josh Hart Recruiting Blazers’ Damian Lillard After Trade Request: NBA Free Agency  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks trade Obi Toppin to Pacers for two second-round picks, per report – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 3:30:00 PM

    Knicks trade Obi Toppin to Pacers for two second-round picks, per report  CBS Sports

  • BREAKING: New York Knicks Trade Obi Toppin to Indiana Pacers – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 3:07:53 PM

    BREAKING: New York Knicks Trade Obi Toppin to Indiana Pacers  Sports Illustrated

  • BREAKING: New York Knicks Reportedly Trade Obi Toppin – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 3:06:58 PM

    BREAKING: New York Knicks Reportedly Trade Obi Toppin  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks: Josh Hart requests Damian Lillard to come to New York – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 2:18:34 PM

    Knicks: Josh Hart requests Damian Lillard to come to New York  ClutchPoints

  • Superstar trade request paves way for guard to join hated Knicks rival – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 1:10:07 PM

    Superstar trade request paves way for guard to join hated Knicks rival  Daily Knicks

  • Knicks trade idea to pair Evan Fournier with enthralling rookie is intriguing – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 12:00:35 PM

    Knicks trade idea to pair Evan Fournier with enthralling rookie is intriguing  Daily Knicks

  • Why Knicks Must Trade Obi Toppin This Offseason – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 11:13:24 AM

    Why Knicks Must Trade Obi Toppin This Offseason  Sports Illustrated

  • There is a lot of trade buzz surrounding Obi Toppin and the Indiana Pacers – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 11:00:00 AM

    There is a lot of trade buzz surrounding Obi Toppin and the Indiana Pacers  Posting and Toasting

  • Derrick Rose signing multiyear contract with Grizzlies after three seasons with Knicks – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Saturday, July 1, 2023 9:17:45 AM

    Derrick Rose signing multiyear contract with Grizzlies after three seasons with Knicks  Yahoo Sports

  • 298 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.07.02)”

    Unless there is a serious implosion, I expect both Rose and Thibs to get contract extensions. I think we should all sit back and enjoy the ride as much as possible.

    Well said @gkhenman…

    @Reese Bobby,
    I feel you, but this particular winter of discontent could be long and peace of mind is required.
    Post 2022 ASG yoga and TM did wonders for me, now I go berserk only twice a month… 😉

    Why is there so much discontent?

    Not just here but I see it on Facebook Knicks groups, Twitter, P and T, etc. Not just people disagreeing with a particular move that is made but people posting about how shitty our GM or franchise is, how incompetent, how horrible thibs is, how cancerous Randle is, etc. I really do not understand.

    I’m not trying to say people should just shut up and not question anything. But we had an amazing season. We have a roster full of young players, no bad contracts, lots of picks, etc. Is it just the age of social media? What gives?

    Like if we’re still stuck here in two or three years then I get being upset that we’re not moving forward. But right now shouldn’t people be chill and maybe just give Leon and thibs a little bit of trust? I’m genuinely asking why so many people seem so unhappy with the Knicks right now when we’re actually really good.

    Why is there so much discontent?

    I’m with you on this. The two moves the Knicks made were no-brainers. DDV is a perfect fit for this team and Obi was permablocked by Randle. The team has done nothing but gotten better year after year under Rose.

    Perhaps the answer is lack of intelligence? The Knicks are one of the youngest teams in the NBA and they have some great pieces and tons of draft capital. The future is bright and the Knicks are better than they’ve ever been to pounce on getting the one stud that can put them over the top.

    @alsep Glad to hear you’re out of the hospital! Hope you stay in good health.

    Re: The minutes “problem”: it will work itself out. Last year we also had a minutes problem logjam in the off-season. A lot of people here “knew” that there is no way Fournier loses minutes making 18 million a year. It worked itself out.
    RJ can get better and earn his minutes. He can step up and fill in as backup 4. Sure, if he’s here, he’s probably a nominal starter to begin the season. But we’ve already seen that he’s on a short leash. And I could see him getting moved for a bigger wing. Maybe with Fournier.
    As for a backup 4, it’s probably not ideal, but i think we can make it work with players on the roster. The NBA is mostly position less. J Hart plays big. iHart got more mobile as the season progressed and he was farther removed from injury. If we bring someone in, i think they find a way to stay under the tax. I’m excited for this team to play basketball games. The future is bright.

    Swifty, I think the fact that we are good is what gets people more critical, at least for me. At the end of last season–when I did not think we were good–all I cared about was getting Brunson and getting rid of Julius. Signing IHart, resigning Mitch, extending RJ did not matter that much because the bigger picture was we had to get very much better.

    This year every move is under scrutiny because we are “close”.

    The unease in Knicksland is understandable. No draft picks. The leaked Obi tirade was followed by a sad trade for second rounders. Hope sprung eternal for Obi, especially considering Randle’s maturity and questionable effort over the years. But Obi’s shortcomings were always masked by his showmanship. DD is a direct response to the Miami series and the type of player that Spoelstra deploys. He upgrades our perimeter shooting and passing. Still, adding another undersized guard without addressing our forward depth is a nagging concern. We are all waiting for another shoe to drop- a big trade forcing us to lose Quick or Grimes which is unsettling as well.

    Is Dario just fully washed now? Always kinda liked his game and the healthy version of him would be an ideal backup PF for us.

    Out of this list, I’d definitely take a flier on Trendon Watford, who was released from the Blazers recently. He’s a bit of a tweener and he’s more of a combo forward than a typical PF, but he has shot pretty well on very limited attempts and Blazers fans were pretty bummed to lose him. Could be a very cheap option with some upside.

    The thing to keep in mind about additional signings is that we are very close to the luxury tax, and to the hard cap spot. So whoever we sign without a trade is going to have to be incredibly cheap. Maybe someone on a rookie minimum. But I still expect us to make a trade

    The Miami Heat made the NBA Finals and have completely revamped their team because they felt they weren’t good enough.
    The Boston Celtics were a game away from the NBA Finals and they have dramatically revamped their team because they felt they weren’t good enough.
    The team with the best record in the NBA last year, the Milwaukee Bucks, dealt with an extremely untimely injury to their best player, and they fired their NBA Finals-winning coach to revamp their team because they felt like they weren’t good enough.

    “He not busy being born is busy dying.”

    The thing to keep in mind about additional signings is that we are very close to the luxury tax, and to the hard cap spot. So whoever we sign without a trade is going to have to be incredibly cheap. Maybe someone on a rookie minimum. But I still expect us to make a trade

    If they’re willing to go over the luxury tax, they can probably use the BAE without it being a problem with the hard cap (they’d be reeeeeeeally close to the hard cap, though).

    I don’t really have a problem with folks being critical, KB would be a boring place if everyone felt the same way about the team.

    I definitely have my issues with both Thibs and Leon. But that would be the case with nearly every FO and coach. Go to any blog for any team and you will find some detractors.

    What puzzles me is how folks (one KBer in particular) get so dug in to a fixed set of negative positions that they lose all objectivity and just become relentless drones, in spite of the fact that their droning adds almost nothing to the conversation. They just can’t bring themselves to stipulate that everyone understands how they feel and move on to discussing things in the context of what is actually possible for now.

    Regardless of how anyone feels about them, whether in general or in regard to specific situations or transactions, Leon and Thibs aren’t going anywhere until the shit hits the fan. It would take a massive underperformance for Thibs to get fired, and even more of a disaster for Leon to lose his job.

    So being anti-Leon and/or anti-Thibs at this point necessitates rooting for them to fail miserably. And now that that’s obviously not happening, what’s left for that contingent to do? It seems like a form of desperation sets in.

    Whatever, thankfully most of the conversation here is grounded in a rational level of guarded optimism, or at least reluctant acceptance of the realities for the foreseeable future.

    I’m with Bruno on this, let’s take a flyer on Watford.

    He improved his outside shooting (SSS caveat applies) and did play more “C” than I thought in Portland too.

    Do we still have cap enough to use the BAE?

    According to Katz, now that they’ve used the mid-level on DDV, under no circumstances can they go into the tax. If that’s true, we are already sort of hard capped, no?

    On that note, why not bring back Gallo for our backup PF? He is likely to get bought out by the Wiz and would probably be happy with a limited role on a minimum deal. And Knicks fans would love it.

    According to Katz, now that they’ve used the mid-level on DDV, under no circumstances can they go into the tax. If that’s true, we are already sort of hard capped, no?

    It’s not that we can’t go into the tax. It’s that we won’t if they team isn’t a title contender. Which this one as constituted today is not. If we were to make another move, then I’ve no doubt Leon would be ready to go into the tax and that Dolan would let him.

    I’d love Gallo returning here and old shooters will always shoot.

    But I fear Thibs’ reaction to his by now non-existent defense (except in the low post, where he can still bang, at least before the last injury).

    I love him too much to see him shipped to Siberia.

    In a way, it’s nice that the conversation has shifted from “Why doesn’t Obi get more minutes?” to “What young project, scrub, or washed-up vet is a perfect fit for the backup PF role on a minimum deal?”

    I like Watford, but would probably be okay with Sims as a placeholder, assuming his shoulder is healing up well. Figuring out a low-cost candidate for 12mpg of backup PF is probably the best possible problem for us to have at this point.

    According to Katz, now that they’ve used the mid-level on DDV, under no circumstances can they go into the tax. If that’s true, we are already sort of hard capped, no?

    Yeah, as Alan notes, the hard cap is above the luxury tax line, it just seems pretty clear that the Knicks don’t seem interested in going into the luxury tax at this particular moment. They could, though, and still have room under the hard cap line. I believe they have about $6 million to spend before they hit the hard cap line.

    “It’s not that we can’t go into the tax. It’s that we won’t if they team isn’t a title contender.”

    Katz wrote this:

    Using the midlevel exception also means New York is hard capped at $172.3 million. Its payroll cannot, under any circumstances or at any time, go over that number.

    Is there another way we could have acquired DDV? Maybe a sign and trade? Beyond that, it seems like we actually can’t go above that once we use the MLE, no matter what Dolan or Leon think or our status relative to being contenders. So we only have like $5M left to spend, right?

    I feel like I maybe the only one who noticed, but the Knicks signed a 6’8″ 230 lb power forward named Isaiah Roby. He is a decent prospect who got caught up in a roster crunch in OKC. At the time of his signing, I mentioned that was a bad omen for Obi. I do think it is worth acknowledging that he is on the roster and likely to get a long look as a backup for Randle.

    There have been some Roby believers already! I like taking fliers on guys like him.

    From Katz:

    They gave DiVincenzo just less than the $12.4 million midlevel exception. He will make $11.6 million in Year 1 of his contract, which leaves just enough room for the Knicks to sign an undrafted rookie to a multi-year deal with the rest of the midlevel.

    They have the Obi exception and the money from renouncing Rose. Is that enough for Donte?

    Roby being waived by the Spurs doesn’t give me much hope of him being a decent backup, but sure, why not?

    Maybe they sign Jacob Toppin, make him get a haircut, and hope fans don’t realize it’s not Obi

    So it seems that the only way for us to add a “significant” player and stay under the hard cap without sacrificing a rotation player is to find a taker for Fournier. Maybe that’s a good use of the 2nd rounders we picked up for Obi, i.e. sweetener to unload that contract….am I misreading this?

    So it seems that the only way for us to add a “significant” player and stay under the hard cap without sacrificing a rotation player is to find a taker for Fournier. Maybe that’s a good use of the 2nd rounders we picked up for Obi, i.e. sweetener to unload that contract….am I misreading this?

    Yes, that’s correct. I think they’re prepared to make that sacrifice since they just added another rotation player, but yes, that’s true.

    They have the Obi exception and the money from renouncing Rose. Is that enough for Donte?

    No. They could only sign DDV with the MLE.

    Spotrac Update:

    Roby – 2M Non guaranteed (guaranteed october 1st)

    Jeffries – 2M Non guaranteed (guaranteed october 1st)

    Sims – 1.9M Partially guaranteed (600K fully guaranteed, up to 1.2M july 16th, fully guaranteed august 16th)

    Keels & Washington – 1.8M cap holds (because of the QO)

    The BAE is 4.516M and we currently have 4.010M cap space before the luxury tax.

    The “new” 2-way aren’t signed yet.

    Thing is, finding a team with cap space to absorb Fournier and that actually wants to absorb him has gotten tricky, given all the deals that have been made already. Otherwise, we’d have to take back salary, and probably bad salary unless the sweetener was even more than 2nd rounders. But I read somewhere that expiring salary like Fournier’s can be very valuable in any deal up to the trade deadline.

    It also sounds like Fournier’s people have the onus of finding a deal for him if he wants to play somewhere else at the start of this year. So that takes some pressure off the FO to find a place to move him.

    I now understand the FO’s thinking and expect that Deuce, IQ, and Grimes will be part of the next trade package. Last 3 roster departures wore 0, 1, and 4 and Josh isn’t going anywhere.

    Thanks, Max. One thing that I have faith in is Brock Aller’s ability to figure out the best possible cap configuration for our assets.

    I now understand the FO’s thinking and expect that Deuce, IQ, and Grimes will be part of the next trade package. Last 3 roster departures wore 0, 1, and 4 and Josh isn’t going anywhere.

    Next level thinking.

    I have a lot of faith in Brock too, he’s a cap genius.

    Fournier and Wembanyama are friends (they share the same agent).
    Their agent tried to build a trade to send him to SAS to be Wemby’s mentor, but the Spurs were involved in the Strus trade where they took back Osman and Stevens and now they’re barely over the “practical cap space” needed to make room for Evan (the difference is around 300K).

    And, as other noticed, Fournier’s 18.8M can be useful for matching big salaries in a star trade…

    Stop trying to make Roby happen, gkhenman!

    But seriously, Roby did have a good season in OKC the year before his lone SAS season. He definitely seems like a good reclamation choice. I just wonder if Thibs will trust him in games this year… I think he’d prefer a playoff-tested vet, but it would have to be a guy who’s ok with not playing most games.

    I really do not understand.

    because you do not even try to…

    and you can basically boil down the toxicity that you see online to the same thing… people do not try to understand each other.. they blame it on a…

    Perhaps the answer is lack of intelligence?

    or they’re a shill… or they’re any number of labels….. and then shut off any ability to take the other viewpoint and understand it…. you’re totally entitled to have youre own… and you’re entirely entitled to be irrational… i have plenty of irrational opinions that i’m selfaware about…. but people will have different opinions and they can entirely rational about it.. and even more rational than you believe it or not!

    I’m not trying to say people should just shut up and not question anything.

    but you do! you call every question about the front office horse shit! i’m not saying that you do this all the time… but no actually you do….

    Why is everyone assuming DD is such a good shooter?

    His career 3p% is 36.2%. That’s with a 39.7% career year playing with the help of Curry and Thompson providing gravity. It’s likely he’s no better than Grimes or Quick and probably not as good, especially given those guys are younger.

    Look, I like his game, but he’s a superfluous addition unless there’s a consolidation trade. It’s that consolidation trade that’s the scarier part because we all know that RJ has been the weakest link but it’s Grimes and Quickley that are the most likely to go. That could potentially be a major error depending on who we get back. We also took a step back with the Obi trade. I wasn’t expecting and didn’t require the team to do all that much this off season, but the idea is to get better. We are NOT better. Several teams above us or nipping at our heels are better. That’s not good.

    @djphan If you’d read the new CBA you’d know that you can now be banned for being annoying. Just FYI.

    Not just here but I see it on Facebook Knicks groups, Twitter, P and T, etc. Not just people disagreeing with a particular move that is made but people posting about how shitty our GM or franchise is, how incompetent, how horrible thibs is, how cancerous Randle is, etc. I really do not understand.

    It’s pretty obvious why. The coach locks in on certain types of players and obsesses over them, and isn’t able to deal with people and players who deviate too much from that core obsession. (*) I mean, it’s absolutely, positively, blatantly obvious by now.

    So he can churn out some pretty good regular seasons, but has a hard ceiling in the playoffs. We saw some indication of that last year, and it’s been the story of his career. He ain’t changing at 65.

    That’s the reason. People can either (1) ignore or shade the crystal clear evidence; or (2) throw in the mental towel and just enjoy the ride, compare it to dreck like the Isiah and Phil years and be just fine with it. It’s sports, so neither are really “bad” in any serious sense. But in basketball terms, the perspective you’re denouncing and can’t understand is absolutely spot-on.

    (*) And a lot of players in the league know this, which is why Thibs is perennially on the “coach I’d least like to play for” lists. His presence limits the possibilities in a way they can’t be limited if you want to contend for championships.

    RE: Backup PF
    I like..no, love the idea of signing Watford and having Thibs run 10 out every night. Even if Watford only gets 8 minutes as long as it’s a consistent role so he can step in and produce when his number is called if Randle’s in foul trouble or injured. That said..I also like the idea of platooning Sims and Roby behind Randle for 2 reasons. One is Roby has roughly the same measurables as Obi and is a better 3 ball shooter and defender- though he can’t explode for 30 like Obi can. And the 2nd reason is if Sims gets more burn at the backup 4, it can (hopefully) push Thibs to add a wrinkle in the offense by getting Hartenstein more involved. But in either case, we’d have a really nice defensive 2nd unit.

    2 other things:
    1. I really hope Deuce can accept being the 3rd/Situational PG. We need a 3rd PG who can step up in case of foul trouble or injury.

    2. Has the team released the full SL roster? I can’t find it anywhere. I’m interested in seeing Race Thompson, the kid from Fordham, and Jaylen Martin play.

    There’s nothing at all to celebrate in this roster at the apron. It’s bizarre that people would think there wouldn’t be significant factional fanbase pushback to this state of affairs.

    Why exactly was Obi Toppin, still on his rookie deal, traded for two 2s, again?

    Look, I like his game, but he’s a superfluous addition unless there’s a consolidation trade. It’s that consolidation trade that’s the scarier part because we all know that RJ has been the weakest link but it’s Grimes and Quickley that are the most likely to go. That could potentially be a major error depending on who we get back. We also took a step back with the Obi trade. I wasn’t expecting and didn’t require the team to do all that much this off season, but the idea is to get better. We are NOT better. Several teams above us or nipping at our heels are better. That’s not good.

    Yep. This is almost certainly step one of at least a two-step process. Step two might be good! But we shall see.

    I don’t know anything about Roby, but some players go through several teams before they get good and earn a regular role on an NBA team. Look at Luka Samanic (also waived by the Spurs) and DSJ as examples.

    I’ll believe there’s a second step when I see it. Sounds like same-old, same-old to me. And most teams are able to take the “steps” in whatever order they need to unfold. You don’t *have* to have Donte Divincenzo to undertake a multi-step roster construction process.

    Sometimes — many times really — a head-scratching move is just a head-scratching move. We’ve seen it plenty of times in Knicksville to know this. Most likely they’re going to trade Quickley for a lame return and that’s the “second step.” That would be my current leader in the clubhouse.

    That’s with a 39.7% career year playing with the help of Curry and Thompson providing gravity.

    I did this already. He played about 1900 minutes this year, 1200 of which came without Steph. He shot .412 in the non-Steph minutes.

    Want to throw Klay in there too? Seems a bit dubious from a gravity perspective given Klay’s age/level of play but sure. In 581 non-Steph, non-Klay Minutes DDV had an 18% USG rate, a .638 TS%, and shot .445 from 3.

    We absolutely need to make more moves to reach contention, but I swear it’s fine that we signed a young, good shooter in unrestricted free agency!

    He had a 510 TS% a single year before last year. He’s not really that young either.

    He’s another of Thibs’s LCHBs. There’s nothing more to it than that. If one is of optimistic, rationalizing nature they’ll optimistically rationalize. Scorpions sting, optimistic rationalizers optimistically rationalize.

    “Look, I like his game, but he’s a superfluous addition unless there’s a consolidation trade.”

    This is simply not true. Now that Obi is gone, he is a solid bench piece who frees up other bench pieces to play different roles. Even without a consolidation trade, he is hardly superfluous. What’s more, he gives you flexibility to either make that consolidation trade or not make it. He also gives you flexibility in the case of injury, or in the case of IQ or Grimes insisting on being overpaid down the road. Speaking of which…

    “It’s that consolidation trade that’s the scarier part because we all know that RJ has been the weakest link but it’s Grimes and Quickley that are the most likely to go. That could potentially be a major error depending on who we get back.”

    That’s a risk in any trade scenario. But that would be true whether we acquired Donte or not.

    I also don’t get why one would assume that Donte is done developing. Which brings me to…

    “It’s likely he’s no better than Grimes or Quick and probably not as good, especially given those guys are younger.”

    Are we forgetting the long swaths of seasons where IQ and Grimes played like shit? And their inconsistency even during their good runs? I think it is equally likely that Donte turns out to be better than either guy…he’s bigger, more physical, and a better finisher than IQ, and he’s just as big, more athletic, and a better driver/passer/ball handler than Grimes. And he’s locked up on a cheaper contract than either of those guys are likely to get in the future. If anything, he challenges those guys to become more consistent or else, and vice versa.

    “We also took a step back with the Obi trade.”

    Why? Obi is the opposite of a positionless player. There is no position that he plays well enough to merit more minutes than he got. It should be very easy to at least tread water by replacing his minutes with someone making less money than his rookie salary, let alone what he would want to extend for. And he is obviously frustrated with his limited role. Moving on from him will hardly be noticed, except sentimentally.

    “I wasn’t expecting and didn’t require the team to do all that much this off season, but the idea is to get better. We are NOT better. Several teams above us or nipping at our heels are better. That’s not good.”

    We basically traded Obi on a $7M expiring deal for DDV plus 2 second rounders. It’s largely a lateral move so it’s fair to say that we did not improve relative to the division, conference or league. But the larger point is, we improved relative to our flexibility to make further moves in the very harsh cap environment to come.

    You are not being irrational by worrying about IQ or Grimes being moved for a suboptimal return, but my take is that DiVincenzo actually mitigates that worry, not increases it. Who knows? Maybe HE”S the piece that gets traded, and makes it possible to keep one or both of IQ and Grimes.

    Are we forgetting the long swaths of seasons where IQ and Grimes played like shit?

    Good to see Z-Man back in form. Puts one in mind of the times he defended Thibs’s obsession with Elfrid Payton by shitting on rookie IQ.

    Steve Kerr’s dumbass loves him some talent. That’s how he’s won.

    Steve Kerr has also successfully managed Draymond Green for multiple years now. Contrast couldn’t be more clear. Picture perfect example.

    You are not being irrational by worrying about IQ or Grimes being moved for a suboptimal return, but my take is that DiVincenzo actually mitigates that worry, not increases it.

    This is what I don’t understand about the handwringing. Whatever it is you’re worried about in terms of our inevitable consolidation trade, DDV should ease those concerns.

    We’ll either have a more than capable depth piece in DDV post-trade, or DDV himself will be in the trade and all the people who hate the signing for weird reasons can rejoice!

    We have one more solid guard/wing than we did yesterday and our long-term financial position has basically not budged. That’s good.

    “Now that Obi is gone, he is a solid bench piece who frees up other bench pieces to play different roles.”

    I should extend this to mean that replacing Obi with DDV also frees up RJ to play less (mostly shitty) minutes with the starters and more minutes as a bench piece (backup PF).

    It’s definitely not bad to have another quality role player, and it won’t hurt to have real competition for minutes. But we didn’t fix our weaknesses anywhere either, and other teams in the East have improved (Boston, Indiana) or may improve (Miami possibly acquiring Lillard). I don’t know if the East is big, but it is definitely tough)

    That said, I don’t think there is any evidence from last season that Thibs is somehow just good for the regular season and not good for the playoffs. Ask Cleveland fans if they agree with that.

    I did this already. He played about 1900 minutes this year, 1200 of which came without Steph.

    his shooting has nothing to do with gravity… the warriors offense creates space on off ball movement… it has everything to do with the offense that gets him in catch and shoot opportunities… it’s curl plays.. it’s flares…. it’s other fancy offball movement… …. his career high 3pt% came with a career high in assisted 3pt%… you get a lot of those in the warrior offense….

    he’s going to be involved in much narrower action to get those same catch and shoot opps… if he’s going to fulfill the rj type of role where he’s involved in more pnr action then you’re going to see his efficiency drop to where he was on the bucks… if he’s in more catch and shoot opps it’s going to be an exact replica of grimes who was an exact replica of bullock…. and there’s a real risk that you get the worst of both versions of divicenzo…

    and a good example of this ihart.. who’s real value came from his playmaking ability and the specific instances he was given to be able to do that… all that evaporated on the knicks…

    Divincenzo’s shooting 382/312/656 in 470 playoff minutes, averaging around 11.5 points per 36.

    Like Red Auerbach said, you can never have too many of those guys.

    We have one more solid guard/wing than we did yesterday and our long-term financial position has basically not budged. That’s good.

    that’s absolutely not true…. the only reason it’s not true AT THIS VERY MOMENT… is that this move came first before the extensions…

    when you factor in the hart and IQ extensions…. yes it very much does impact the long term financial implications of this team and it’s yet another contract that needs to be accounted for….

    I still can’t believe me, of all people, a proud team pessimist member for a decade on this board, have been reduced to one of the optimists just by the force of comparison lol.

    It used to be that the pessimists were pragmatic and the optimists were day dreaming about young players developing massively or incredible far fetched trades, but the tables have certainly turned.

    Leon Rose has set an objective: be competitive by signing good players and building a team that works around the strengths of our coaching staff. It got the Knicks to the 2nd round of the playoffs, which was a success by the standards set. Pretty much every move has been consistent with this gameplan.

    I’m happy because I’ve spent ages just wanting to see a fucking direction from a Knicks front office. Are we tanking and rebuilding or trying to build incrementally? We spent years and years with front offices that had no idea how to choose a lane and stay on it. Love him or hate him, Leon Rose has chosen a path and he’s staying consistently on it. Is it my preferred path? Well, no. But at least it’s a real direction that has had some success in the past with other teams.

    So while I respect the opinion that the ultimate goal should be to build a contender and this team still lacks the pieces to be one, I’ll “trust the process” and enjoy the fact that it is far better than the mind boggling approaches we’ve had that tried to do everything at once and failed at every step.

    Our best path to improvement is the same as it was at the end of the season, we need the young guys on the team to get better. DiVincenzo is fine as a bench guy, someone who is hopefully more useful than Frenchie.

    “Puts one in mind of the times he defended Thibs’s obsession with Elfrid Payton by shitting on rookie IQ.”

    Nice mischaracterization, dude. Understanding his POV is hardly defending it, or agreeing with it. But feel free to search the archives to find a post where I actually defended it, and I’ll admit that I was wrong…something that you are utterly incapable of doing even when there is a mountain of evidence staring you in the face.

    BTW IQ just put up a -3.7 BPM and a .481 TS% in 8 playoff games. And that was actually an improvement on IQ’s performance in 2021. Elfrid would have been proud!

    Troll on, counselor!

    Depends on perspective, really. Definitely better than the Isiah/Phil years, which can’t be just handwaved away; OTOH, until further notice the “path” looks like “happy with the mezzanine and mezzanine assets and playoff gates, don’t really care about really contending.”

    If you don’t mind association purgatory, it’s very easy to achieve it. That used to be axiomatic on KB; it’s less so now, but it’s still an axiom.

    There’s no use belaboring it at this point. DDV looks to me like just another of Thibs’s LCHB’s and there’s ample (overwhelming, really) evidence to support that. We’ll see if there’s a consolidation trade and how the season goes. There’s really no reason even to go through the same back and forth during the season; all that really matters is the playoffs.

    “There’s no use belaboring it at this point.”

    Coming from the undisputed King of Belaboring It on this board, that’s kind of funny!

    Why exactly was Obi Toppin, still on his rookie deal, traded for two 2s, again?

    Because he was a hustlebunny

    E I’m going to make an earnest appeal to you to change it up a bit. All of your posts are exactly the same, such that they are eminently skippable. Give us a scouting report on Duane Washington Jr. or some shit, I don’t know.

    We get it, you are on the record as saying we will not be able to make a consolidation trade that gets us into contention. You will be proven right or you will be proven wrong.

    I am saying this as someone who actually enjoys your non-trolling posts! Do more of those. The mezzanine, hustle bunny thing is so tired it barely even works to get a rise out of people anymore.

    BREAKING NEWS:

    According to Woj:

    “The Trail Blazers do not plan to cooperate with Damian Lillard on his trade request to the Heat.

    – Portland “open for business everywhere in the league” on trading Lillard.

    – Blazers seeking a combination of young players, draft picks and cap relief.

    – Miami has no advantage over any other team because of Lillard’s demands.“

    BOOM. The gloves are off.

    “I don’t think there is any evidence from last season that Thibs is somehow just good for the regular season and not good for the playoffs. Ask Cleveland fans if they agree with that.”

    To be fair, CLE was very poorly coached. But two things are critically important:
    1) We beat the team that sold the farm to outbid us for Spida, erasing any residual embarrassment in the bloggosphere from being “schooled” by Ainge.
    2) We beat them (and had the opportunity to beat them rather than lose to a higher seed) in large part because we sacrificed one lottery-protected first rounder to acquire a pivotal role player, who actually shut down the guy we “missed out” on going all in for.

    So the reason the Knicks wouldn’t be in on Lillard is because he “plays the same position as another player on the team”?

    A real star has shaken loose, his team has said it’s going to maximize return assets if it trades him. Seems like the situation we’ve all been waiting for.

    Nice try TNFH. Cue the “what a shame you’ve gone over to Team Troll” weak sauce.

    “So the reason the Knicks wouldn’t be in on Lillard is because he “plays the same position as another player on the team”?”

    Are you really fucking serious?

    Right now we’re kind of in the position that Atlanta or Portland often finds themselves in. A good team, probably a lock for the playoffs, but a clear notch below the real contenders in the conference, who are now Boston, Philly, Miami and Milwaukee.

    We have no young players with breakout potential, only role player types who figure to improve incrementally but who are not likely to burst on the scene and turn into stars. Most years we don’t add a 1RP to the roster. We have some future assets in terms of picks but most of those are heavily protected.

    If you asked me my honest opinion of where my team is headed, I’d guess we win like 47-52 games per year for a while, maybe win a first round series some years, and top out around there until the core starts to decline. COULD we do better than that? Sure. I hope we do! I just don’t see a cathedral ceiling for this group the way this roster is constructed. Leon’s sub-optimal approach to the draft really hurts that ceiling. We don’t throw the darts at the dart board, and we didn’t spend enough time in hardcore asset collection mode, so we don’t have young guys that you can dream on.

    Which is… okay! Being good can be a step to being great. I completely don’t rule out that possibility. And it’s also fun to live in “good” land rather than watching the 2023 versions of Jason Smith and Emmanuel Mudiay and Shandon Anderson and Andrea Bargnani stink up MSG on a nightly basis. The mezzanine ain’t so bad.

    Escaping it is not going to be easy, but I’m down for the ride, and I’m more than open to the idea that there could be some pleasant surprises.

    Wait … so the claim now is that Damian Lillard and Jalen Brunson can’t play together?

    Damian Lillard is a true superstar. He’s available. Go get him. Money talks, bullshit walks.

    I imagine Portland is really just trying to force Miami to do the legwork of getting them assets for Herro. It seems very odd to make a big public deal about wanting to help Dame out and then saying, “No, never mind.”

    I guess my issue is that some people come across like we’re just as bad as the darkest Phil jackson or isiah days and also that taking the next step is so logically easy when in reality it isn’t. I mean Philly has yet to make the conference finals!

    @ E You were right, Elf totally ruined IQ’s development. I can’t believe Thibs was so stubborn to never stop playing that hustlebunny Payton and never gave IQ a chance to prove himself once he matured.

    Oh wait…

    They’d both undersized and play the same position and dame is not young. You’re sacrificing all of our young players and picks for a short window with a back court that would be not good at all on defense.

    I’m sure Leon would trade for same if the price was right but it’s not like it’s such a logical slam dunk move that guarantees us a title or even a trip to the conference finals X.

    “I just don’t see a cathedral ceiling for this group the way this roster is constructed. Leon’s sub-optimal approach to the draft really hurts that ceiling. We don’t throw the darts at the dart board, and we didn’t spend enough time in hardcore asset collection mode, so we don’t have young guys that you can dream on.”

    I mean, sure. But our entire roster is under age 30 and most of our non-Fournier players are on market-level or better deals. Together with our surplus of draft assets, we are not “dependent’ on having young guys you can dream on. We are literally one transaction away from being a true contender. Smart guys like Woj, Windhorst, Fischer, etc. are actually praising the approach of this FO given implications of the new CBA. To paraphrase, we are proceeding into an era where free agency is being replaced by stars demanding trades after signing max extensions, and being accommodated. Lillard is doing that right now! And if we really wanted him, we could get him and STILL have stuff left over! Durant just did it! Harden too.

    Who’s next? Embiid? Doncic? Giannis?

    And we have two “max” players on middling contracts. (not that they deserve the max, but there are plenty of players worse than Brunson and Randle getting paid way more than them. Somehow that gets lost in the “we’re stuck in second-round exit territory” discussion.

    “Wait … so the claim now is that Damian Lillard and Jalen Brunson can’t play together?”

    No, that’s not the claim. You’re a pretty smart guy. Figure it out.

    a clear notch below the real contenders in the conference, who are now Boston, Philly, Miami and Milwaukee.

    Yeah, I mean, these teams have the 4 best players in the East, all top-8 league players. If you’re saying we need a guy like that, I’m pretty sure every single Knick fan will agree with you. The question is: can we get one without drafting him? Of that group, only Miami didn’t.

    So I get why people are “team tank” — I definitely was on that team. But that’s just not what Leon’s doing. Within the framework of what he IS doing, I think he’s done a decent — albeit not perfect — job. And I think he’s learning from his mistakes.

    Just like to point out that DL’s roster number of “0” just became available…sorry Trevor

    You can tell that something went wrong in the Dame conversations by how Joe Cronin worded his response statement yesterday. It was very passive aggressive.

    I’d always assumed that Portland wanted to rebuild but couldn’t say so publicly because of loyalty to Dame. But it seems like they are pissed off or caught unawares by the trade request.

    I guess my issue is that some people come across like we’re just as bad as the darkest Phil jackson or isiah days and also that taking the next step is so logically easy when in reality it isn’t.

    you dont understand… you come right up to the point of realization and then you’re like nope… it’s all horseshit.. they’re all idiots! haha suckers!

    the problem with this discussion (knicks) or any discussion really… is that people will cling onto the one or two or three things that they know is true… and everything else is irrelevant… and you know that might be the case in some instances… but it’s not even close to true in the vast majority.. because you’re wrong sometimes believe it or not… it’s a very arrogant way to go about life!

    if after addressing their points you probably still won’t agree with them but you might hopefully understand it… and maybe things wont be as horseshit….

    i don’t mean to pick on you.. but you’re the torchbearer for this mentality on this board… and it’s contagious… it’s happening in every post today apparently…. everyone’s clinging and only engaging on the things that they know are true and not really accepting anything else… and that’s how things get toxic because people talk past each other and things get repetitive and tiresome…

    we could be talking about the incineration or the donte signing or another trade or politics or religion… you can’t make people understand anything if you don’t even try yourself…

    I’d always assumed that Portland wanted to rebuild but couldn’t say so publicly because of loyalty to Dame. But it seems like they are pissed off or caught unawares by the trade request.

    I don’t disagree, but they still said they would help the guy find his trade! So why even say that in the first place?

    Companies say all kinds of things about employees that they don’t really mean.

    Brooklyn apparently has offered 4 1s and some swaps. Two direct Knicks competitors appear to be the primary suitors.(*) Both improve massively if they can get the player. No reason for the Knicks not to be all-in. Allegedly, this is the moment they’ve been waiting for — collecting assets for an asset contest for a shaken-loose superstar.

    (*) Lillard has called Mikal his dog and Bam his dog. Interestingly, though we were told that Josh Hart would help improve the odds of trading for a star and even though Lillard actually played with Josh, no indication Josh is his dog.

    Dame’s case sounds remarkably similar to the Durant situation. That seemed to work out well for all parties, and my guess is that this will as well.

    People have every right to be generally pessimistic about our chances of becoming a contender. Everyone stipulates to the fact that we’re better off than we were under Phil Jackson, except for maybe one guy and even he would probably begrudgingly admit as much. It’s totally fine for people to acknowledge as much and still be pessimistic.

    Like Bruno, I just think many of the pessimistic complaints are substantively wrong. I mean sure, if you pick the “no” side of a binary “will the Knicks win a championship in the next 10 years” question, you will probably be right, just as you will probably be right picking that side for any other team in the NBA.

    But right now the Knicks are pretty good, and they have the clear ability to make a trade that primarily sends out future value for a player(s) that primarily provides present value. So there’s a path for them to go from “pretty good” to “contending” that doesn’t require a whole lot of mental gymnastics.

    I think that’s a well-above average spot to be in vis-a-vis the 29 other teams, though I’m happy to acknowledge the slew of frustrating mistakes make too.

    “No reason for the Knicks not to be all-in.”

    You are so freaking transparent. Anyone with a single working brain cell knows that there are ample reasons for the Knicks not to be all-in. But sure, why not spin things to further your oh so tiresome narratives?

    There’s no reason for them not to be all-in, much less “ample” ones. He’s not the “perfect” superstar, that’s the only reason — but that isn’t a reason. He’s way better than Donovan Mitchell and even taller!

    There’s nothing to hold your powder for. The time is now.

    The inevitable “well Giannis is the one they’re really waiting for” after this one will be rightly laughed upon.

    Bruno, TNFH, JK, I truly appreciate your perspectives today because you are making a bonafide attempt to balance reasonable skepticism with acknowledgement that the outlook has changed significantly for the better.

    A lot of the team’s prospects for future success is wrapped up in Jalen Brunson’s presence on the roster. He’s the probably best PG we’ve had since Clyde, and surely the best we’ve had since KB has existed. That, in and of itself, is such a game-changer…a Big-3 level player on a modest contract that is locked up for at least 2 years. It seems like the direction of the FO right now is less to build around Thibs and more to build around Brunson. That’s such a break from the past that it’s easy to lose track of that in our discussion.

    “He’s way better than Donovan Mitchell and even taller!”

    …and older, and more expensive, and less healthy…

    PS there were ample reasons not to be all-in on Spida, and I was adamantly against that trade from the get-go. Alas, we missed out on him. What a tragedy!

    Maybe they sign Jacob Toppin, make him get a haircut, and hope fans don’t realize it’s not Obi

    LOL

    I like Donte but I am truly worried that his signing will make IQ “expendable” and we will trade him rather than give him an extension.

    Switching Obi for Donte does not make us better because it makes less sense positionally. It also makes us really vulnerable to an injury to Randle. If Randle goes down for any amount of time we have a real depth problem at the 4.

    Also, count me 100% out on any star trade that brings back a player over 30 and making $40 million or more a season.

    I’ll never understand why someone would bother coming to a site day after day, month after month, year after year, just to shit on other people’s takes and troll over and over.

    Djphan, on the other hand, I do want to engage with you, or try. You often seem to be arguing that there’s some elemental truth that others are refusing to get to, out of obstinacy or ignorance or otherwise.

    I’m a scientist, but I don’t think sports are like that. For example, I’m broken-hearted that we traded Obi. He was my second-favorite Knick after IQ; I loved rooting for him, he seemed hugely likeable and kind of humble and he had that ‘maybe he can break out’ kind of hopeful appeal. Plus great fun on the break, and a name to die for.

    But I totally get the “He’s better off in Indiana” take, and maybe even Z’s position that ‘the Knicks are better off’ (remains to be seen, to me, but maybe…).

    People approach sports from an almost infinite number of positions — chip or bust, fun rootable product, etc. ad nauseum. One can argue your position as a sensible one, but it makes no sense to argue that it’s more legitimate, because others may be starting from a completely different perspective about what ‘good’ is.

    Raven – I totally agree. I too am really sad we traded Obi because he was one of my favorites as well. I also think he has more potential than he has shown here and I really want Randle gone.

    This wins-at-all-cost approach is hard because I not only want to win I want to win with players we drafted and developed. It would be a lot less fun to simply trade all our youth for a big name and then ride that big name to success. If I wanted to root for Lillard or George or Durant I would root for the team they are on. I don’t really want them on mine.

    “I like Donte but I am truly worried that his signing will make IQ “expendable” and we will trade him rather than give him an extension.”

    Yeah, but that’s the shit that happens when good teams try to become great teams. Think of the players PHX gave up to acquire KD. Or that CLE gave up to get Spida. Or LAC gave up to get PG13. You can’t get those guys without having guys like IQ on the roster that you are willing to part with.

    For me, it’s really a matter of a) what return we get and b) what is left over after the trade. I love IQ, but neither he nor anyone not named Jalen Brunson is worth getting too attached to, unless you are fine with this team’s ceiling as presently constructed. Which is totally fine! I, for one, love rooting for homegrown players and am also kind of sad to see Obi go. My takes on him are more about objectivity than emotion.

    So for me, losing IQ is less important than who we lost him for. But again, I love him and would love to keep him. He’s definitely the fave of my wife and daughters, and Obi was second. But alas, it’s a business.

    Raven really brings up a good point. Part of my “new” approach to the Knicks is that I’m just tired of screaming to the winds what I think is the best possible team building strategy, when reality has shown over the last 20-25 years of the Knicks existing that it’s simply not going to happen.

    Leon Rose will not tank, and he will not simply gut this team for any star that shows up because he wants Barrett or Randle off the team. So those positions, while rationally consistent to some extent, simply won’t happen in any circumstance. And I’m tired of defending hypotheticals that have no chance of happening.

    We have a very watchable team, with some upside, that has a small chance of eventually getting it all together and contending. That small chance is still significantly higher than the chance of a Knicks front office taking my preferred approach into account and becoming contenders. So I’ll take this small chance over the 0% chance and find some enjoyment in this process.

    I’ll remain as pragmatic as I’ve always been, but there’s levels to it and the objective results of this Knicks iteration are some of the best ones I’ve watched in the 30 something years I’ve cared for this sorry franchise. So I’ll take it.

    While I’m largely in agreement with JK, TNFH, Bruno, etc., I think we’re underselling just how good Dame is. He was a top 5-10 player in the league at 34 years old. He’s one of those players who, when healthy, is clearly going to defy the age curve and be good well into his late 30s. If you’re willing to go long on late 30s Steph, you should, by parity of reasoning, go long on late 30s Dame. He was better than 26 year old Donovan Mitchell!

    The only worry really is his injury history and his fit on this roster, but he basically poses the same issues that Mitchell posed on the court–undersized back court, fit with Brunson, and defensive worries, and there was a very strong case for the idea that we should’ve traded for Mitchell (I think we could’ve made it to the second round and further with Mitchell than with Grimes, RJ, etc.)

    I think those worries are largely overstated so long as we get a defensive minded SF/PF to shore us up (like Torrey Craig). Off the court, you worry about signing him to a long term deal that goes to about 38 or so–but even if he falls off a cliff at 38, you get two years of a truly transformative player. We should certainly be kicking the tires, and there is a price that makes sense for him. He’s a bona fide game-changer.

    (Interestingly, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson is on the Blazers roster, and would be a wonderful defensive addition in the event of a trade for Dame…)

    So while I respect the opinion that the ultimate goal should be to build a contender and this team still lacks the pieces to be one, I’ll “trust the process” and enjoy the fact that it is far better than the mind boggling approaches we’ve had that tried to do everything at once and failed at every step.

    I’m with you, Bruno. My option wouldn’t have been this one, but i think Leon is showing he can follow a plan, and that is a huge improvement over what we’ve become used to in this century.

    I’m not trying to be snarky but if your complaint about the DDV signing is that you’re worried it will precede a bad trade involving IQ, isn’t it worth waiting to see if there’s a bad trade coming involving IQ? I wouldn’t necessarily take that as a given.

    There is definitely a consolidation trade coming, but it might not involve IQ and/or might not be bad.

    Switching Obi for Donte does not make us better because it makes less sense positionally. It also makes us really vulnerable to an injury to Randle. If Randle goes down for any amount of time we have a real depth problem at the 4.

    We absolutely have a glaring need for a capable backup 4 right now. I hope we address it with the limited amount of money we have left.

    *whispers* Christian Wood’s market really seems to have collapsed huh?

    Damien Lillard..

    This is gonna feel dirty to say. Hell- it’s dirty to think of him going where he really wants to go. And I am of the thinking that Portland saying they will do what’s best for the team is a ploy to get Miami to make something happen elsewhere with Herro because he really doesn’t fit in PDX. And..a package centered around Lowry and Robinson will take A TON of picks to get done. So…why not send him to Brooklyn? Ugh..I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. But- they’ve got Simmons, Dinwiddie and draft capital from Phoenix. Send Simmons into a rebuilding environment where he can focus on rebuilding himself without the pressure. I do think Simmons is redeemable, but not as a PG.

    Sending Dame to Boston for Brown works too..but I’m sure nobody wants to see that lol. I think Portland should move both Simons and Dame to do a proper backcourt rebuild with Scoot and Sharpe. Grab some solid vets to caddy for them and let them play.

    I did this already. He played about 1900 minutes this year, 1200 of which came without Steph. He shot .412 in the non-Steph minutes.

    Due respect, TNFH, but the players that drift into a Golden State and emerge with career years/big contracts elsewhere have all been second unit guys. Otto Porter, Payton II, Cassapi, Bjelica, Tascano-Anderson, Chriss, McCaw, Ian Clark, Marreese Speights, etc… That’s a lot of guys who either peaked or had a resurgence during the Kerr era, all of them regressing post-departure, and all of them playing in the 2nd unit without Steph. I’m not saying DiVincenzo doesn’t bring skills that will be useful to the Knicks, I like him and condone the signing. But there is a legitimate buyer-beware that accompanies any Warrior because they all regress.

    Yeah it’s quite possible DDV benefitted from playing with the Warriors even without a Steph effect. I was responding to Strat, who specifically posited a Steph effect.

    I think we’re underselling just how good Dame is. He was a top 5-10 player in the league at 34 years old.

    You’re also over-selling how old he is:)

    The issue with Lillard remains that we would be paying him through what should be his decline phase, and he’s already been more injured in the last 2 seasons than he’s ever been before.

    He’s the guy we need in terms of production, but in the wrong timeline and the wrong position. I really don’t know if the Knicks should go after him, specially since he doesn’t seem to want to go to the Knicks in the first place.

    My gut reaction would be to not do it. I’d rather keep everyone we have and wait until the next star shakes loose, be it Embiid, Doncic if Dallas collapses or whoever else comes up. I am very aware of the issues of just running it back with this roster and hoping for the perfect star to show up, but there’s also issues with making the wrong move. I’m really not confident either way in this situation.

    Donte’s career BPM is 0.1 but I guess we only look at that stat when it supports our assumptions.

    Decent player but this is no steal; it’s another market price veteran.

    You often seem to be arguing that there’s some elemental truth that others are refusing to get to, out of obstinacy or ignorance or otherwise.

    what on earth would make you believe that… there are certain FACTS that others are just refusing to even acknowledge and hence it impedes their understanding…. but there is no such thing as elemental truth… that’s an assumption you’re making of me purely.. well i don’t even know or care.. you have to reconcile that…

    i back everything that i say.. i don’t try to get personal…. i try not to get repetitive unless people are making repetitive outrageous claims… you are free to challenge those claims that i’m making… you don’t have to like me but don’t accuse me of some ‘elemental truth’… there’s probably a few dozen folks around here with that attitude who are purely going off of the vibez and i’m basically the only one even bother validating the claims that i or anyone else is making…

    surely a scientist could appreciate that.. but i guess i am the only one who actually enjoys the analytical process throughout my own line of work and everywhere else….

    About the cap space, we did this:

    Jonathan Macri @JCMacriNBA:
    Good tidbit from Fred (Katz):
    “They gave DiVincenzo just less than the $12.4 million midlevel exception. He will make $11.6 million in Year 1 of his contract, which leaves just enough room for the Knicks to sign an undrafted rookie to a multi-year deal with the rest of the midlevel.”

    “Purgatory” is the scientific conclusion. “I’m just going to enjoy the ride” is the non-scientific, more emotional perspective.

    when reality has shown over the last 20-25 years of the Knicks existing that it’s simply not going to happen.

    this is the problem that most people are just not getting… you don’t have to view this within the lens of the ‘hinkie strategy’… you can judge these moves purely on its own merits..

    paying your 8th man the mid level is not a good value proposition…. there were a bunch of yokes about max strus’s contract which is ironic because cleveland is not even fulfilling the same part of the rotation as donte is… and he’s only 2.5mm cheaper annually… and cleveland already made their all-in move! trading your picks for other picks is not terrible in its own right… but trading them for 40% of the going rate of what that pick should be going for is not!

    nothing in the hybrid approach makes you do terrible deals! none! the whole justification of all these deals is that in the ‘grand scheme of things’…. it doesnt matter because of the grand ‘consolidation trade’…..

    i mean isn’t that the sort of mentality that you’re handwringing others for? don’t assume anything! judge these deals on its own merits.. .and they’re not good!

    I’m not throwing in the towel on proper GMing just because the Knicks never properly GM. My standards and will and patience are higher than that. So be it.

    I’m a big fan of the worst franchise in professional sports, the Detroit Lions. All you can do is hope and be patient that eventually they’ll get it right.

    Zach Lowe on his podcast today was adamant that Dame to the Knicks makes no sense for New York and was only slightly more positive about the idea of a Brunson/Harden backcourt. And he was saying this specifically in praise of Brunson.

    I don’t understand the idea that you shouldn’t try to get better before you make your “all-in” move, unless this is a larger argument that the Knicks should be tanking, an option decidedly unavailable to them on July 1, 2023 when they signed Donte DiVincenzo.

    You definitely shouldn’t make moves that hurt your ability to make your “all-in” move, and I thus am much more sympathetic to the Hart trade complaints. It’s conceivable trading a single lottery-protected first could do that, though I’ve registered my skepticism a number of times.

    I do not understand whatsoever how having DiVincenzo signed to the MLE could possibly hurt our ability to make such a move. Seems to me it simply gives us extra depth, which in fact will be very helpful if/when we make the move. It is now rather significantly less painful to trade, say, Quentin Grimes. We also have an additional salary for matching purposes.

    How does having DiVincenzo make us less able to make an all-in move?

    Eric Gordon to the Suns. Both they and the Lakers have done an impressive job of gathering role players with barely any financial resources available to them, Phoenix especially.

    You don’t need to sign a guy first in anticipation of another deal, which probably isn’t going to happen anyway.

    Most likely, there’s nothing else to come and this is the roster they’re playing with this year. I know everyone wants to be optimistic and all, but we’ve been through this a zillion times with this team.

    Thibs likes DDV and so they signed DDV. He doesn’t like Obi and so they traded Obi. Until further actual notice, there’s nothing more to this than that.

    @wojespn
    ESPN Sources: Charlotte Hornets restricted free agent F Miles Bridges is preparing to sign a $7.9 million qualifying offer for the 2023-2024 season, clearing the way for him to become unrestricted next summer. Hornets and Bridges are far apart in extension talks. Story soon.

    Have a depressing feeling that Bridges is going to ball out this season, and that some team will be willing to give him the bag because his Unfortunate Behavior will be far enough in the past by that point.

    Both they and the Lakers have done an impressive job of gathering role players with barely any financial resources available to them, Phoenix especially.

    So have the New York Rangers, because players actually do like coming to Madison Square Garden to play hockey and the Rangers actually are a contender. Maybe seeing how the New York, “Mecca” thing actually works in practice has informed my opinion of how it isn’t working and never really has on the basketball side of the operation. The contrast is night and day.

    The Knicks currently have the 21st most expensive roster, and we’re perfectly fine cap wise, what we’re doing is exactly what teams above the cap do. I really don’t care to discuss if DDV is our 8th man or not, he might not be but let’s assume he is, we have players ahead of him making less than they should in Grimes, Quick, and maybe even Hartenstein. Brunson clearly deserves more money too, so i guess we’re saving money there. And if Randle keeps his level of play, he’s underpaid too. I really don’t understand why it is a big problem giving a player that it’s valued at the MLE… exactly the MLE. Ok, i get it, we need bargains, and this is market rate money. But we already have the bargains i listed, i really don’t understand the insistence.

    Lol, purgatory is a made up place by Dante that he created bc he didn’t want to send philosophers like plato who lived before Jesus was born to hell. There is nothing scientific about labeling our current situation as purgatory.

    This doesn’t even acknowledge the fact that your own definition of purgatory suddenly changed when our team became the 5th seed and win their first round series.

    Brandolini’s law, also known as the bullshit asymmetry principle, is an internet adage coined in 2013 that emphasizes the effort of debunking misinformation, in comparison to the relative ease of creating it in the first place.

    The law states the following:

    The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

    I have submitted a motion to Wikipedia to change the name of this insightful and just law to E’s Law.

    Hustlebunny does good:

    @wojespn
    New York Knicks G Josh Hart has committed to the final roster spot on the 12-man Team USA FIBA World Cup team this summer in the Philippines, sources tell ESPN. He joins his Knicks teammate Jalen Brunson on the American team.

    The Knicks currently have the 21st most expensive roster,

    are we really making an honest attempt at this if you are you doing this and not factoring in IQ’s and hart’s extension?

    This team has an undisputed pillar on a great contract in JB, a nice supporting cast/bench, two shaky (or “less steady”) 2nd and 3rd options on good contracts (look at the money that’s flying around these days).

    To me, to contend in a very competitive environment we need to improve the top-3 options where only Brunson is untouchable.

    Easier said than done, I’ve trouble finding a “perfect” star* that will shake loose in the next 6-12 months.

    So I’m ready to evaluate every “flawed” star, based on the usual set: assets cost, roster construction after the trade, fit on the system, age, injury risk.

    Lillard is one of my fave and I’m way more positive about him than Harden (strong “no” for me), alas I think this chance is coming a couple of years too late.

    Quick note: one side effect of the Obi trade, fully understood by our FO, is that now Randle is basically untouchable, unless you get a starting PF in return.

    * Not over-30 and/or overpaid/past his prime/injury prone/head case.

    And my yesterday’s question about “realistic” targets went unanswered. 🙂

    and was only slightly more positive about the idea of a Brunson/Harden backcourt

    No, no, Alan, i 1000 times prefer to have a Brunson/Dame backcourt than to have a Brunson/Harden backcourt. I’m not saying we should go after Dame, but this will be only his 33yo season, people are giving him age like Frank used to grow inches in the offseason (LOL!), and he’s signed for 4 years, so it’s season 33yo to season 36yo. I don’t think he’ll fall off a cliff at least in the first 3 years. And if he and Brunson would play 32 mins a game, we’d have them both for a 16 min stint and then two stints of 16 mins with each without the other. Can you imagine us having at least one of Brunson and Dame to lead the offense all game long? It’d be hard for our opponents to deal with us, they wouldn’t be able to put the “second team” on the court. But as i said, and although Dame is one of my favorite non-Knicks players, the other is Steph, i feel this is a little too late for us. But we’d become a lot better with him. And i don’t feel we’d become the same level of good with Harden, but it can be my disliking about his style of play talking.

    are we really making an honest attempt at this if you are you doing this and not factoring in IQ’s and hart’s extension?

    Have we extended them yet? No, so for now there’s not a problem. Who says all of Quick, Hart and DDV are here for the 2024-25 season? You’re making problems where there are no problems yet. Just chill and let Brock Aller work.

    are we really making an honest attempt at this if you are you doing this and not factoring in IQ’s and hart’s extension?

    are we really making an honest attempt at this if you are you doing this and not factoring in that other teams also have pending extensions?

    Hey Max, if Fournier wants to go to the Spurs, can’t we trade him for McDermott? We’d save 5M in the process, and also would have 5M less to match salaries, of course. Fournier makes 18.8M and McDermott 13.7M. But i guess it’d still be a useful salary for matching purposes, although a little lower, but better than letting all the 18.8M go away. Then McDermott would proceed to replace Evan in Siberia, because with the way he plays defense i wouldn’t bet on Thibs playing him. LOL

    To make things clear:

    Current salary: $161,283,894
    Lux Tax: $165,294,000

    Hard cap: $172,346,00
    Super Apron: $182,794,000

    Knicks currently have the following salary options:

    Min salary: Varies
    MLE leftover: ~$800,000
    BAE: $4,516,000

    In addition the following cap holds:

    Keels: $1,801,769
    DW Jr: $1,801,769

    Those disappear if they end up on a 2-way, however, we only have 1 more 2-way spot. We can’t take both and also add a FA, one of them or the below needs to be cut

    We can also waive the following without consequences until 10/10:

    Jeffries: $2,066,585
    Roby: $2,066,585

    In short:

    (1) We have $11M before we are hard capped, there’s practically no way we can hit this via FA

    (2) The lux tax is the more relevant line for the FO right now

    (3) We have ~$4M to sign a vet, up to ~$4.4M if we replace Roby & DaQuan with Keels & DW, that’s nearly the whole BAE

    (4) Moving Fournier has no real bearing on what we can do with FAs. If we move him we should take on a similar salary to use in trades

    I think it’s a bit much to constantly worry about the value proposition of our 6-8th man signings when we have at least 3 of our top 5 players signed to under-market deals in Brunson, Randle, and Mitch. Say it’s true that DDV is break-even money at the MLE (he’s clearly not sub break-even value at the MLE, but not obviously a value-add either), and say it’s true that Josh Hart is break-even to slightly negative value on his extension (highly debatable imo.) Then we can think about the comparative number of weight of our underpaid and overpaid players.

    Underpaid players:
    Brunson
    IQ (for now)
    Randle
    Mitch

    Players paid commensurate to their value:
    DDV
    Grimes
    Deuce
    Sims
    I-Hart
    Market-rate PF
    IQ (soon? He’s worth 20mm AAV without any further growth, btw)

    Overpaid players:
    RJ
    Josh Hart (maybe)
    Fournier

    That’s a pretty good ratio of value players to overpaid players. Especially since our value players are our most productive players. It doesn’t strike me as obviously wrong to overpay for your 6-9 when they’re versatile and when a team that is looking to go deep in the playoffs–which is what the Rose regime intends to do–especially when your stars are underpaid relative to their production. Note that all of this appears to be true without pricing in the salaries of someone like DDV as trade bait (which only makes the case for signing him stronger.)

    Does this mean Leon should run it back? No! We should always be looking for ways to make our team true contenders, rather than the fringe contenders we are currently. But signing DDV seems to me totally unobjectionable on the merits, at least when looked at in a vacuum. And I think that’s the standard we should be applying here, since whatever else, it does in fact make the team better in a value-neutral or value-positive way–which is entirely in line with Rose’s approach and eminently reasonable for a team with ECF (or greater) upside to do.

    Leon’s dubious draft record, on the other hand, should be critiqued, but also kept separate from the Hart/DDV debate. The former is about the best strategy for getting to genuine title contender status (having lots of value contracts via the draft–which, I should add, we do have already, despite our proclivity for punting picks–or keeping our powder dry until we find that perfect star.) The latter debate is about whether signing Hart/DDV represents good value to a team in our position when the goal is maximizing wins in a value-neutral or value-positive fashion.

    I also think the rhetoric of some here is a little bit much. It is neither productive nor true to suggest that other people are simply “ignoring facts” and then quote some pop psychology about mob behavior on the internet. Claims of “ignorance of the facts” usually amounts to those disagreeing about what the facts are, and what would show the facts to be facts. And it is not clear that signing a guy to the MLE counts as ignoring the facts–for sometimes you should care about value, and sometimes you should care about raw productivity, and it’s unclear at which point the calculus changes, and where the Knicks are along that curve. It is also obnoxious. Surely the debate over DDV’s value at the MLE is not the same kind of debate as the one over the efficacy and safety of vaccinations. And that’s because the latter isn’t really an open question and the former is!

    Obi averaged 6.4 rebs/36

    DD averaged 6.2 rebs/36

    Obi couldn’t stop anyone of any height anyways

    We’re smaller but unless they added bonuses points for player height in the new CBA, I think we’ll be just fine

    Today i’m playing this music on repeat mode, don’t know why, but it’s those things only music can do… 🙂
    In case it can reach any of you the way it did to me, here it goes… 😉
    https://dinosaurjr.bandcamp.com/track/garden
    Sometimes we sway
    Couldn’t have it any other way
    Now it happened nobody’s happy with it
    And everybody’s living through it, must admit I get into it

    Don’t make it harder
    Hand me your hand, no time to wait
    Where is the garden?
    And when do we move?
    Love how you move with me

    Takes time
    It takes time living on a razor blade
    To know the way

    Don’t make it harder
    Hand me your hand, no time to wait
    Where is the garden?
    And when do we move?
    Love how you move with me

    Raised on the faith
    The center’s holding
    And can’t be broken
    We were raised on the faith
    The center’s holding
    And can’t be broken

    And now that it’s started
    It might not stop
    The pressure dropped
    Back to the garden
    Look in my eyes
    We’ll survive

    it does in fact make the team better in a value-neutral or value-positive way–

    this keeps being said… but how is this happening when he’s cannibalizing minutes from already -1 to +1 bpm players already? what exactly was the upside to this deal where this concretely adds wins?

    where’s the math because if it’s inarguable it can be quantified…

    as an example… you could add say tj mcconnell … a player i also love.. and add him for the mle… which would also be a value… and he wouldn’t add any wins to the squad if he’s also taking minutes from IQ who’s about the same value wise…. and also playign the same position…

    we’re dealing with the same problem here… you just created a value vacuum because you effectively got your third ‘value’ pg…. you don’t create any value if you are still playing them consecutively and if the concurrent value isn’t itself a value add….

    Are we trying to “concretely add to wins” during the regular season or are we looking for another option to throw at a team in the playoffs when other dudes are cold from three?

    We keep talking about value contracts. F that. We’re building a TEAM.

    How many times can we say the word “value” in a thread?

    This is hard to say without knowing the length of the rotation, but here’s a way for DDV to get a good amount of minutes without “cannibalizing” the minutes of Grimes or IQ:

    48 minutes for each spot; so currently:

    PG
    32 mpg for Brunson
    16 MPG for IQ
    SG
    25 mpg for RJ (this is the big change: RJ needs to get reduced minutes if he doesn’t perform–it’s time for Thibs to put him on the leash.)
    12 mpg for IQ
    11 MPG for DDV
    SF
    20 mpg for Grimes
    8 mpg for DDV
    20 mpg for Hart
    PF
    32 mpg for Randle
    8 mpg for Hart (I think they’re going to go small at various points this next season if the roster stays the same)
    8 mpg for random pf
    C
    30 mins for Mitch, 18 mins for I Hart

    This is a perfect cromulent rotation that barely cuts into the minutes of IQ and allows us the flexibility to ride the hot hand (so one of Grimes and DDV will always be on floor as the catch-and-shoot guy/tertiary ball-handler.) It also has the unquantifiable value of giving your offense a different look, since Grimes and DDV are different players.

    I don’t want to block IQ, RJ, or QG’s development but I see no reason Divicenzo holds that back. They’ve been on the team for multiple seasons now. If they can’t play better than someone you bring in, that’s it, they’ve had their chance. Maybe Donte pushes them in a good direction based on competition for minutes. Maybe he becomes the consistent force we want those guys to be. I love Obi but he didn’t play well enough to earn an extension and his value was two second round picks. Let’s hope the story ends happier for our other young dudes but Divicenzo isn’t the make or break variable there.

    That’s another perspective to be analyzed, DJ, but DDV will be one of our 9 or 10 man rotation, so he’s not taking minutes from anyone. Well, except Deuce, he’ll probably be out of the rotation.
    If we keep the roster as it is, and don’t make trades or sign a backup PF, we’ll have:
    Brunson (32), Grimes (24), RJ (32), Randle (36), Mitch (28);
    Quick (24), DDV (20), Hart (24), Hartenstein (20);
    Seems balanced, and we’re still getting value from all these players. When Quick can’t shoot DDV plays more and him less, same with Hart.

    Then McDermott would proceed to replace Evan in Siberia, because with the way he plays defense i wouldn’t bet on Thibs playing him. LOL

    Good call Cyber!

    Dougie McD played for Thibs in his rookie season (some can say he never recovered 😉 ).
    If that deal is done he’ll start walking to Siberia on his own as soon as the deal is official 😀

    As an aside, I’ll never forget his backdoor plays with KOQ, a rare thing of beauty in a 29-wins season.
    And he was in the Mudiay midseason trade, the dawn for a 17-wins season.
    A couple of years I’d really like to erase from my memory…

    where’s the math because if it’s inarguable it can be quantified…

    Obi Toppin had a -1.0 EPM

    Donte had a +0.5 EPM

    +0.5 > -1

    But i’m with Brian, and others, i think there’s still a shoe to drop. We clearly seem loaded to make a trade without the risk of having a short rotation after the trade.

    Chicago just got a 10.2M DPE for Lonzo, so it’s official he will not play this season. Sad.

    A couple of years I’d really like to erase from my memory…

    Sorry to have brought the memories of the great Emmanuel “we’re going to fix you” Mudiay, Max! 😛

    this keeps being said… but how is this happening when he’s cannibalizing minutes from already -1 to +1 bpm players already?

    RJ had a -3bpm season

    This is a perfect cromulent rotation that barely cuts into the minutes of IQ

    you probably didn’t notice but you just cut grimes’ minutes to 20mpg… and ok you want divicenzo to cut into rj’s minutes great…

    where’s the usg coming from then? this is the lineup you’re trotting out… iq.. grimes… donte… hart… ihart…. this is the early 2nd and late 3rd lineup more or less and so what’s happening here? is donte increasing usg? what effect do you think that would have on his production? or hart’s for that matter?

    and how does it make sense to pay the mid level for a guy you’re playing… checks notes… 19mpg? do i have that right? did you mean for this math to work out to your big signing playing under 20mpg? and you’re calling this a value add/value neutral signing?

    make me understand this lunacy…..

    Sorry to have brought the memories of the great Emmanuel “we’re going to fix you” Mudiay

    Don’t worry Cyber,
    I’ll add Autogenic Training to my yoga & TM regime and I’ll be okay 😉

    The lunacy is having another dude for the playoffs. How is this hard to understand? If grimes or IQ or Hart or RJ are cold in a playoff game, DD is an option. A reliable one cause he’s good at defense.

    I still can’t believe me, of all people, a proud team pessimist member for a decade on this board, have been reduced to one of the optimists just by the force of comparison lol.

    It used to be that the pessimists were pragmatic and the optimists were day dreaming about young players developing massively or incredible far fetched trades, but the tables have certainly turned.

    Leon Rose has set an objective: be competitive by signing good players and building a team that works around the strengths of our coaching staff. It got the Knicks to the 2nd round of the playoffs, which was a success by the standards set. Pretty much every move has been consistent with this gameplan.

    I’m happy because I’ve spent ages just wanting to see a fucking direction from a Knicks front office.

    I feel this, Bruno.

    For what it’s worth, I’m more of a critic than a pessimist. I think this team will be fine and I like rooting for it. What annoys me is that we could easily be this good and have major upside if only we used our draft picks wisely.

    Leon’s moves are consistent: sell uncertainty at any cost, buy predictable performance at market price.

    The selling of our lottery pick last year, for example, was simply atrocious. He’s gotta make that pick and add the upside. But he seems constitutionally against risk, and I don’t see how this team ever moves beyond where we are with that kind of fear-based management.

    That’s another perspective to be analyzed, DJ, but DDV will be one of our 9 or 10 man rotation, so he’s not taking minutes from anyone.

    oh my sweet summer child…

    cyber i like you.. but come the regular season you will be very angry at how things are gonna turn out with these assumptions….

    Signing the Courtney Lees of the world to market value contracts made no sense because the team was bad, and all they were going to accomplish was to generate E’s beloved marginal wins. This team is good. Not great, but good. We have one player who made All-NBA this year and another who arguably should have. (And those results could easily flip now that All-NBA will be positionless.) We have a bunch of solid to excellent role players, a few young guys who still have upside, etc. Having DDV in the fold allows us to trade from our depth if the right opportunity comes along. And if not, it allows that depth to be a strength, particularly since three-point shooting is so variable. Thibs would never dust off Fournier unless he just had no other choice, because Fournier was so bad at defense. If DDV or somebody else is out of the rotation for a while, or even getting Obi-level minutes most nights, Thibs would also have no problem playing any of them more if someone else is having a bad game.

    The ex-Warriors argument is a more compelling one to me than the question of why we’re bothering to sign veterans to completely non-crippling contracts.

    Miles Bridges at $8MM is guaranteed to get traded to a contender this year.

    make me understand this lunacy…..

    Let’s say we pay little money for all the players that aren’t starters, and then a max player like Embiid demands a trade to NY, assuming we want to keep our two best players (Brunson and Randle), you’d need to send them RJ and Mitch to match salaries. And that is even if they don’t want those two, because they’d be the only ones making the money needed to match Embiid’s money. You can’t work like that if you want to position yourself to trade for a max player, you need to have several possibilities among your players salaries that can be used to make the trade. So it isn’t a problem to give salaries like DDV’s MLE, it’s even needed. We had Fournier making 18M and DRose making 14M and not playing, isn’t that a worse situation? Of course it is, you’re not even showcasing the players, so they’ll just be filler. DDV will be playing and he’s not overpaid, so teams can want him and not view him as only filler. I understand your point, but i don’t agree with you. I think this is what teams in our situation do, and it’s not a problem. And relax, it’s only Dolan’s money. 😉

    In a way, it’s nice that the conversation has shifted from “Why doesn’t Obi get more minutes?” to “What young project, scrub, or washed-up vet is a perfect fit for the backup PF role on a minimum deal?”

    It’s been painful reading hate posts.

    I didn’t think about Roby but guys like him can be a perfect rotational backup for Randle. They’re happy to just get 10-15 minutes. Maybe the FO thinks he has untapped potential.

    You can’t work like that if you want to position yourself to trade for a max player, you need to have several possibilities among your players salaries that can be used to make the trade.

    you can use the MLE as a trade exception now… so this scenario where you need matching salary options… is moot… it exists whether you sign donte or anyone to the MLE or not…

    https://www.sportsbusinessclassroom.com/understanding-trade-matching-in-the-new-collective-bargaining-agreement/

    Starting in July 2024, teams can use non-taxpayer or room mid-level and bi-annual exceptions to acquire a player via trade or waivers.

    and no it’s not just Dolan’s money… it directly impacts what options you put on the floor.. and yes you wind up giving up picks because burks and noel couldn’t repeat their best years again….

    The lunacy of signing a youngish player who plays good defense, shoots well and is unselfish to 12 million dollars a year! It’s literal chump change in the NBA today.

    Miles Bridges at $8MM is guaranteed to get traded to a contender this year.

    Hubert, we’re trying to build a team we can root for! 😛

    If things stay as they are, I expect the minutes to go something like this:
    PG: Brunson 32, IQ 16
    SG: Grimes 18, IQ 10, DDV 20
    SF: RJ 22, JHart 20, Grimes 6
    PF: Randle 34, RJ 8 JHart 6
    C: Mitch 28, iHart 20

    Totals:
    Randle: 34
    Brunson 32
    RJ: 30
    Mitch 28
    JHart 26
    IQ: 26
    Grimes: 24
    DDV: 20
    iHart: 20

    Obviously minutes will vary depending on situational decisions, foul trouble, injury, etc. but I think everyone should be happy with this kind of initial average distribution. If they aren’t that’s on them.

    Then Thibs can adjust based on who’s playing well and who’s not. If someone winds up getting squeezed, that’s the way it goes.

    See—this is what I’m talking about: “you probably didn’t notice”—I did notice. Grimes’ minutes will go down. But the overall amount of “Grimes-like” minutes (stipulating that DDV and Grimes are about equally productive) goes up from 30 to 39. It’s important to maximize the number of Grimes-like minutes, insofar as that role is 3 and D. This is without including Hart’s contribution to that at the bigger forward positions.

    Where’s the usage coming from on the second unit? Well, some combination of RJ, IQ, and Donte, along with some staggered Brunson or Randle minutes. All it takes is some creative lineup adjustments on the part of Thibs, rather than platooning 1-5 and 6-10.

    I’m not sure about the minutes worry. Either MLE guys are important (which per your previous posts they aren’t) and deserve lots of minutes, or they’re fungible and are basically 20mpg guys (your stated position in various threads.) the first view is inconsistent with what you’ve posted before, and the second leaves DDV right at the fungible MLE guy 20 mins a game threshold. So what’s the problem paying market rate for a role player who gets 20 mpg?

    Cleveland just signed a much worse player in Niang and traded for a somewhat worse player in Max Strus for similar values (less in Niang’s case and more in Strus’ case) and they are also going to be subject to a minutes crunch, though less than our situation. I simply don’t see the asset-valuation disaster that this represents. It seems positively sane, not lunatic. And this is all without pricing in any possible value from injury insurance, unrealized upside, salary matching purposes, or the possibility of more minutes after a consolidation trade.

    you can use the MLE as a trade exception now… so this scenario where you need matching salary options… is moot… it exists whether you sign donte or anyone to the MLE or not…

    You can’t aggregate TPEs in trades, but you can add DD’s salary to another players in a trade

    Starting in July 2024, teams can use non-taxpayer or room mid-level and bi-annual exceptions to acquire a player via trade or waivers.

    You may have noticed but it’s not July 2024 yet. If we don’t use the MLE, we lose it this year

    I don’t think you can combine the MLE trade exception with players to trade for a max player. Or is it allowed under the new CBA? I haven’t read anything about the use of a trade exception on players making more money than the trade exception, so i’m assuming it stayed the same. If that’s the case, it’s better to have a player.

    I do think it is fair to criticize this kind of roster imbalance:

    PG: Brunson

    6’4″ (give or take an inch) SG: Barrett, Quickley, Hart, Grimes, DiVicenzo

    Wings taller than 6’4″:

    Forwards: Randle

    Bigs who can stretch the floor:

    Lane clogging centers: Mitchell Robinson, Isaiah Hartenstein, Jericho Sims

    I mean, the best players in this league are big wings, and we have no one to guard them. And the most critical aspect of playoff offense is floor spacing, and we have no bigs who can provide it.

    This is what I mean about taking shortcuts (and put your snark away, Noble, because this is real). You can win 46 games with this kind of imbalance. But this kind of bullshit will be exploited within one or two rounds of the playoffs absolutely every single time.

    “At full health, this acquisition risks limiting Quentin Grimes’ minutes to 20 on some nights” seems like a non-issue. Maybe there’ll be a consolidation trade before then anyway, maybe there won’t be. Regardless, getting good young players for $12.5M AAV is Actually Good.

    you can use the MLE as a trade exception now… so this scenario where you need matching salary options… is moot… it exists whether you sign donte or anyone to the MLE or not…

    But this is almost certainly our last season as a non-taxpayer, so we would’ve had until this upcoming deadline to put the TPE to better use than DDV. That seems like a pretty low probability proposition to me.

    did you mean for this math to work out to your big signing playing under 20mpg? and you’re calling this a value add/value neutral signing?

    DDV will make about 8% of the 2023-2024 cap. Is it a travesty if he’s slotted for 20 minutes, give or take a few?

    I don’t think you can combine the MLE trade exception with players to trade for a max player.

    I haven’t heard anything about this either. Don’t think it matters much because we only had up until the upcoming deadline to use it anyway, but if you can’t do this it really blows a hole in djphan’s argument that this signing impedes our ability to make a major move.

    Dame gets age when arguing we shouldn’t trade for him, RJ gets shorter, what else are you guys going to “forget” to check/mention? This thread is getting funny! 😀

    I don’t know what snark you think was incoming. I have been banging the “we need roster changes in order to contend” drum all season and all offseason.

    I decidedly do not think any team can avail themselves of 47 wins while having surplus first-rounders. I think there are many teams who would happily choose this allegedly readily available option, if it were actually readily available.

    But we’re going to have to make a series of savvy moves to get from there to contention. I’ve said that all along.

    So what’s the problem paying market rate for a role player who gets 20 mpg?

    that’s the problem! the mle is not market for guys playing 20mpg! the mle is about market rate for the 5th or 6th guy in the rotation… i posted the 5th guy in every rotation for every contender and everyone at the end of the win curve and they are all paying LESS than the mle….

    the first view is inconsistent with what you’ve posted before,

    if you think it’s inconsistent.. you’re not understanding so be more specific about what you’re citing as a previous post…. everything is relative… the 5th guy in the rotation is not that important compared to your 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4th guys… so you’re probably conflating things…

    and the second leaves DDV right at the fungible MLE guy 20 mins a game threshold.

    you don’t pay fungible guys at the end of your rotation the mle… and they certainly dont devote 4 years to them… you just dont…period… every contender cycles through various players in those spots.. mainly because they have to but because it’s very risky devoting long term money for guys that are highly volatile…

    just look at miami… they’ve lived through it for all their role players and they are facing a consolidation trade RIGHT NOW… and they still refused to sign gabe vincent and max strus…. that’s maybe informative? maybe?

    Cleveland just signed a much worse player in Niang and traded for a somewhat worse player in Max Strus for similar values (less in Niang’s case and more in Strus’ case) and they are also going to be subject to a minutes crunch, though less than our situation.

    they are also at the end of the win curve…. and they’ve already gone all-in… there’s no more move for them to make.. they’re not trading garland… or mitchell… or mobley… they have no picks to trade… no chance… they might trade allen… but flexibility for them means nothing… for us it means something more because we’re not the cavs….

    Wings taller than 6’4″:

    I meant to say 6’5″ but it’s too late to edit.

    I did this already. He played about 1900 minutes this year, 1200 of which came without Steph. He shot .412 in the non-Steph minutes.

    Thanks for the data on his shooting without Steph and Klay, but it was still an outlier year.

    It’s kind of like J-Hart.

    When he came here people were trashing his 3 point shooting, but it was pretty obvious he wasn’t that bad and I said so. He was just on a bad run in the same way his 3p shooting for NY at around 50% can’t be sustained in the other direction.

    It’s possible that DD is just improving. I’ll take it if he has. But I think he’s more likely to come in a couple of ticks below 39.7%.

    i posted the 5th guy in every rotation for every contender and everyone at the end of the win curve and they are all paying LESS than the mle….

    The 1st guy you listed, KCP, is making $14M per year.

    $14M > $11.6M

    You conveniently left out Marcus Smart and Derrick White #5 & #6, both around $17M

    $17M > $11.6M

    Timelord who you cited at last year’s number is making $11.9M this year, he’s actually #7, and will be playing behind KP & Horford somehow

    $11.9M > $11.6M

    Boston will potentially bring back Grant Williams too

    The Clippers paid $16M for Morris, $12M for RoCo, $11.7M for Batum this coming year. Those are 5-7.

    All those> $11.6M

    Duncan Robinson is 5th highest paid player on MIA this coming season with Herro’s extension. $18M.

    $18M > $11.6M

    I’m glad you’re scientifically objective though

    I personally think we should dispense with the “position in the rotation” discussion. There probably isn’t a team in the NBA that has a flatter curve between #1 and #9 in their rotation. And the #1 through #3 guys all make around $25M AAV, give or take, which is far from the case for most teams. We happen to have a flat salary distribution because we have nothing remotely close to a max contract…yet we were one of the top 8 teams in the NBA last year.

    But we’re going to have to make a series of savvy moves to get from there to contention. I’ve said that all along.

    Savvy is an understatement.

    We have to trade wings who are under 6’5″ for wings who are three inches taller and have the same skill set.

    We have to trade bigs who can’t shoot for bigs who can, without sacrificing elite rim protection.

    Those are monumentally difficult tasks! And they consistently get presented like something that is easily achievable: a “consolidation trade,” as if you can just trade trade three undersized wings for one big one.

    If anyone ever played fantasy football, you remember the guy who was always trying to trade three OK guys for one really good guy. It never worked.

    Leon doesn’t just have to be savvy. He needs to turn water into wine.

    “I meant to say 6’5″ but it’s too late to edit.”

    6’5″ is wrong as well, he is officially listed as 6’6″ in B-R. He also has a 6’10” wingspan and is built like a brick shithouse.

    This is simply not true. Now that Obi is gone, he is a solid bench piece who frees up other bench pieces to play different roles.

    Free up who for what role?

    It frees up someone that should not be a PF to play backup PF because we don’t have Obi in that spot or it takes someone I think is superior to DD off the court to give him minutes. He’s going to play, and probably close to 20 minutes. That means we are moving someone to a sub optimal position or someone like IQ or Grimes is getting less minutes.

    Hubert, we’re trying to build a team we can root for! 😛

    It’s ok, cyber, when I said contender, I meant “title contender”, not “first round contender” 😉

    they are facing a consolidation trade RIGHT NOW… and they still refused to sign gabe vincent and max strus…. that’s maybe informative? maybe?

    The Heat are currently sitting on 13 players and are $1.9M under the super apron. This is informative. It informs us that you haven’t really considered how their position differs from ours.

    so hold on where does this assumption come from that we’re going to be a tax payer? i just assumed that was true… but now i’m not so sure..

    https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2024/

    if you include donte and all our cap holds we’re still 39mm short for 2024 offseason… and yes that doesn’t include the hart and iq extensions but that does include hart’s 19mm cap hold and iq is not gonna be maxed out… if we’re including this year… we’re not a taxpayer (yet) but i mean we could have easily avoided it if we didn’t sign donte and just traded obi…

    https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2023/

    so what am i missing?

    DiVincenzo = the new Frank

    Blasphemy! But I’ll let you decide on which side… 😉

    It informs us that you haven’t really considered how their position differs from ours.

    uh they didn’t have to sign any of the players that they did either…. they could easily fit under the apron if they wanted to keep vincent or strus… but they chose to go the obviously better route of just letting them go and shop the bargain bin….

    I don’t understand the focus on height. 6’4” guys who are good are better than 6’8” guys who aren’t good. I thought that we’d moved past measurable at this level.

    Statistically, Josh Hart would be the best rebounding guard ever. Better than Magic, better than Fat Lever, better than Westbrook. Unfortunately for Hart, the NBA went positionless, so he’s doesn’t really play guard anymore. But it’s not because he grew. It’s because height is largely irrelevant, it’s the skills that matter.

    “It frees up someone that should not be a PF to play backup PF because we don’t have Obi in that spot or it takes someone I think is superior to DD off the court to give him minutes. He’s going to play, and probably close to 20 minutes. That means we are moving someone to a sub optimal position or someone like IQ or Grimes is getting less minutes.”

    I have absolutely zero doubt that RJ and JHart can fill the 12-14 PF minutes as well as Obi on both ends. In other words, we are replacing one suboptimal player with other suboptimal players.

    And that’s barring a roster change. as TNFH keeps pointing out, this roster is not a finished product by any stretch. I am supremely confident that by the trade deadline (Vinnie Gambino voice) you’re gonna be MORE than satisfied with our backup PF situation.

    I’m glad you’re scientifically objective though

    you’re not understanding…these were the decisions at the time of their last offseason… not what it is as of today…

    but EVEN IF you allow the clippers or the celtics who were forced to go through other means to acquire talent because they were capped out and they don’t have picks or dont want to trade core pieces… we don’t have that obstacle! we have options! we don’t have to do this!

    some objectivity would go a long way for you tho so i’m glad you’re in that hemisphere where it’s entered the brain space… progress….

    Cyber,

    I forgot to tell you that I did like your yesterday’s take on Jalen McDaniels, he’s an interesting guy (and probably a useful forward backup).

    Whatever it is you’re worried about in terms of our inevitable consolidation trade, DDV should ease those concerns.

    I thought I was pretty clear about my concerns, but maybe not.

    I love Quickley and think he’s way better than given credit for. I think he has a chance to become the best two-way player on the team. I certainly rate him over DD.

    I would rather have Grimes than DD even if I rate DD a bit better now because I think Grimes is just scratching the surface of his upside after his injured plagued camp and start to the season last year.

    IMO any trade that includes those guys for some of the names that have been tossed around (LaVine, Towns, Mitchell, Beal, George etc…) would be a bad move. IMO, if a consolidation trade happens it should primarily be RJ and picks. If it’s some one special, I’d include Grimes.

    The only trade I think is the “right” given the names mentioned is OG, but I’m not giving Masai RJ, Grimes and pick(s) and definitely not Quickley, Grimes and pick(s). I’d way rather wait until the trade deadline.

    you’re not understanding…these were the decisions at the time of their last offseason… not what it is as of today…

    I mean, you made a claim that was objectively false on it’s face from the first name you listed…

    I don’t understand the focus on height. 6’4” guys who are good are better than 6’8” guys who aren’t good. I thought that we’d moved past measurable at this level.

    We have to go through Jayson Tatum, Jimmy Butler, and Giannis every year. Might want to have someone tall enough to guard them, no?

    I think Hubert is saying something I was trying to say earlier, but he’s saying it better: we have so many 6’5” wings, and no 6’6”+ wings or floor stretching bigs. This is not a team with a lot of versatility. We have very little ability to throw different looks at opponents in the playoffs other than to throw another 6’5” wing at them.

    Those guys are all pretty good players (well except RJ) but that lack of versatility seems very exploitable.

    so hold on where does this assumption come from that we’re going to be a tax payer? i just assumed that was true… but now i’m not so sure..

    Almost like the dreaded consequence of signing Donte that you keep harping, and which I’ve asked you to show on multiple occasions, doesn’t exist without going very deep into guesswork.

    To quote you:

    there’s probably a few dozen folks around here with that attitude who are purely going off of the vibez and i’m basically the only one even bother validating the claims that i or anyone else is making…

    I mean, you made a claim that was objectively false on it’s face from the first name you listed…

    ok great… i’m wrong on one name.. but how does that impact my point? these are 5th guys in the rotation…. and 1 out of the 8 or so dont make the mle… donte.. is not that 5th guy….

    do you want to disqualify everything based off of that? or what do you think? or is it more important to you that this is binary?

    djphan, you’ve effectively made your point to the rest of us. The people you’re arguing with are committed to being obtuse, and it’s not worth your energy.

    The problem is now with Obi gone and Donte in, our top 10 players are 2 centers, 7 guards, and 1 forward. That is a problem.

    Even if Barrett is a G-F and Hart plays big we are still short when it comes to 6’8″+ forwards. We have one and he is one of the worst defenders in the NBA most of the time.

    I have absolutely zero doubt that RJ and JHart can fill the 12-14 PF minutes as well as Obi on both ends. In other words, we are replacing one suboptimal player with other suboptimal players.

    You can get away with a lot of things on most nights if you have to, but there are going to be matchups where those guys are getting killed because they too small and not strong enough. Those will be the nights Thibs plays Randle 48 minutes and everyone is whining about that.

    I’ve been one of the guys trying to temper the occasional very high enthusiasm about Obi, but he was a very good backup PF that gave us a lot of energy and a different look. We are undersized at PG, undersized at SF, and we’ll be very undersized at backup PF. I don’t like it.

    “The People you’re arguing with are committed to being obtuse”

    This, coming from Mr. Obtuse himself. Who in this very thread cut 2″ off of RJ’s height to make a point.

    Troll on, chump!

    I don’t understand the focus on height. 6’4” guys who are good are better than 6’8” guys who aren’t good. I thought that we’d moved past measurable at this level.

    call me superficial, but, can we settle in it’s bad optics to have 3 guys 6’5″ and under out on the court…

    sure, evian is taller, but he sucks, or at least is a bad fit for our coach…

    the point is donnie – when do we get to the smoking, drinking and eating portion of today’s discourse…

    better question donnie – if you were to host a small group (5 or less) to watch a game – what food and beverages would you serve…not knowing the folks well enough to know their individual preferences…

    Almost like the dreaded consequence of signing Donte that you keep harping, and which I’ve asked you to show on multiple occasions, doesn’t exist without going very deep into guesswork.

    you’re not paying attention and not even trying to understand… so you can address the points being made first and then i can go repeat myself if you wish….

    Oh, and the $132M figure next year includes Fournier’s team option while the lux tax numbers are based on a fairly conservative $6M instead of the full 10% or $13.6M, which isn’t guaranteed, but has done so for the coming season and last season.

    Money is only bad insofar as there are consequences to having that money on the books. Maybe 3 or 4 years out there will be something but there’s too many variables by that point to insist on limiting our flexibility today.

    Those guys are all pretty good players (well except RJ) but that lack of versatility seems very exploitable.

    Precisely. We’re going to throw rock every single night. Good ol’ rock will break a lot of scissors (i.e. rack up wins, good SRS, etc), but it’s guaranteed to lose to the first team that can throw paper.

    The real East contenders (Boston, Miami, Milwaukee) can throw all three. We’re very far from being able to do that.

    “You can get away with a lot of things on most nights if you have to, but there are going to be matchups where those guys are getting killed because they too small and not strong enough.”

    As opposed to the many times Obi got killed in his matchup because of issues other than his height?

    I think it’s a genuine issue that we don’t have any bigger wings other than RJ, who is not a defender. But that’s not an argument against signing DDV unless there was a bigger wing available at the MLE who represented a similar value proposition (which doesn’t seem to be the case, pending how much Grant Williams is signed for). We are too heavy with guys 6’4 and under. But that’s something that’s eminently fixable at the trade deadline or next year. In the meantime, we got another good player on a good deal, even if he doesn’t fix our most pressing need. Again, that’s not an argument against signing DDV given the dearth of big wing options who fit our needs at the MLE.

    DiVincenzo = the new Frank.

    I think we all agree DD is a good player.

    The disagreement is about team building.

    Some of us think the goal should be to address very specific needs like 3 point shooting, size at the SF position, another major scoring option.

    We already have a bunch of 6’4″ and 6’5″ SGs that we can use at SF. Arguably we are better off with Grimes, Quick, and Hart. He’s not filling a need.

    As opposed to the many times Obi got killed in his matchup because of issues other than his height?

    That was one of the limitations Obi had that caused me to keep calling him a backup, but I’d still rather have Obi than DD given what we need. I already have 3 other DDs and arguable 2 or even 3 of them are better than him (even though I’m sure I’ll love him as a player too).

    Jalen McDaniels

    Jalen McDaniels and Jaden McDaniels is the “Dylan McDermott or Dermot Mulroney” of the NBA.

    After watching two LCHBs lay brick in the playoffs (*), Tom Thibodeau’s first instinct was to go out and get yet another LCHB who lays brick in the playoffs. Which in turn begat said LCHB.(**)

    In a way, it’s actually kind of funny and charming.

    (*) One of whom rebounds well for a guard!!

    (**) Who rebounds well for a guard!!!!

    djphan, you’ve effectively made your point to the rest of us.

    LOL. So far from this…

    Obi is a perfectly mediocre defender. He’s not great and he sometimes gets beat but he is consistently better than Randle. The Knicks were 3+ points better defensively this year and 5+ points better defensively last year with Obi on the court so he must not have been that bad. The narrative around Obi here is often very inaccurate. He was a good bench player who showed sparks of more. Our team is worse for having lost him.

    DD is great, I like him, and I think he is an asset to any team he is on but he should not play in front of Hart, IQ, or Grimes and won’t play in front of Barrett so he is a bit redundant. That said I am happy to welcome him to the Knicks I just don’t want him to spell the end of IQ or Grimes and the timing is bad with it coinciding with us dumping Obi and not replacing him.

    We have to go through Jayson Tatum, Jimmy Butler, and Giannis every year. Might want to have someone tall enough to guard them, no?

    Almost nobody can guard these guys, regardless of height.

    I agree, get versatile defenders. But Hart, Quickley, and DiVincenzo are better defenders at 6’4” than a lot of 6’9” guys that I can name off the top of my head.

    And, yes, a stretch big is important, but stretch is more important than big. It’s easier to be tall than it is to shoot three pointers well.

    you’re not paying attention and not even trying to understand

    Exactly. So stop talking to them.

    We’re going to throw rock every single night. Good ol’ rock will break a lot of scissors (i.e. rack up wins, good SRS, etc), but it’s guaranteed to lose to the first team that can throw paper.

    Tom Thibodeau’s career is a never-ending loop of regular-season scissor smashing followed up by losing to paper in the playoffs. (*) We’re heading for another year of that next spring.

    It’s getting really, really old.

    (*) Usually punctuated and followed by demanding that the front office get him more rock, or pouting and whining when they make even the smallest lurch toward trying to compete better with paper. Front offices with backbone get sick of him and move on. We have Leon Rose.

    I get that we don’t have ‘height” at the wing position. But that didn’t hurt us against Cleveland, and it didn’t hurt us against Miami.

    Every team except maybe Denver has imbalances. That’s why they make moves. Leon will probably make moves to correct some imbalances, including those at the wing position. But let’s not pretend that our imbalances are some kind of fatal flaw relative to all the other teams that are in our “close but no cigar” class. At least we have the flexibility and assets to make moves. IQ and Grimes are exactly the kind of players that teams are looking for. Plus we have draft picks galore. It’s a relatively easy problem to solve.

    But let’s see what we have first. It’s hard to tell right now whether it’s IQ, or DDV, or Grimes, or RJ, or Mitch, or iHart, that should be traded in order to fix that problem, and who will shake loose. There really isn’t an urgency here, and trumping up the negatives to create a false sense of urgency is disingenuous.

    most folks aren’t understanding because they’re clinging to the ‘how can it not make sense signing good players to reasonable deals’… it’s possible believe me! very possible! we went through this over a decade ago when we monopolized the market on undersized pf’s.. remember that?

    again… if we signed tj mcconnell to a 4 year deal.. or any other third pg… that’s a good player but that doesn’t improve your team one bit… or maybe we trade rj for jarrett allen… that’s a great trade! and good player but that amount of money and years playing 20mpg.. is that really working out? i mean FVV is a pretty decent player… but at that money and as a primary option he’s probably not actually that decent…

    so if you allow for a universe where yes it’s very possible for a pretty decent player to not be deployed in a way that doesn’t make him decent or a decent value… then yes you can accept a universe where this signing doesn’t make sense….

    once you let that reality sink in.. then go back to all these other arguments and maybe it starts making more sense…. but if you can’t ever in a million years ever accept that.. then yes.. every nail will look like a hammer… and we will all be talking about the same things in 200 days….

    better question donnie – if you were to host a small group (5 or less) to watch a game – what food and beverages would you serve…not knowing the folks well enough to know their individual preferences…

    Dude, you’re talking to a misanthropic introvert here. There’s nothing worse than hosting 5 people I don’t know well. I’m getting sick just thinking about it:)

    “He was a good bench player who showed sparks of more. Our team is worse for having lost him.”

    So good that not a single team in the association would offer more than 2 seconds for him while he is still on his rookie contract. The same price that oft-cited Bones Hyland commanded because no one understood how good he really was.

    most folks aren’t understanding

    Because they’re privileging their fandom of this awful franchise over their objective brains.

    It happens.

    It’s slightly strange to be sure when that privileging is passed off as the “scientific” view, but that happens, too. Just gotta roll with it.

    it’s possible believe me! very possible! we went through this over a decade ago when we monopolized the market on undersized pf’s.. remember that?

    A thing being possible doesn’t make it likely or true.

    It’s also possible he’s a great addition and the difference between us winning a championship (most likely after a few other moves) and not winning a championship.

    Say he only plays us 15min a night, well that’s 15min a night he makes us better.

    Say Grimes gets injured, well now he’s a pretty important piece and most likely a starter.

    Just imagine a scenario where Grimes goes down and a hypothetical opponent plays zone against us but we dont have a shooter to play alongside either Hart or RJ causing us to lose that series. Boy would that hypothetical scenario suck!

    You’re evaluating the move based purely on downside, and that’s not how you should judge moves.

    Saying “you’re not understanding” over and over again is code for “you’re not as smart as I am.”

    Incredibly condescending.

    once you let that reality sink in.. then go back to all these other arguments and maybe it starts making more sense….

    Ok, so your ever-changing point now is that DD is duplicative, and therefore, not worth 12 mil per.

    Honestly, that’s a fine enough stance, although there is probably a bigger move planned that would make DiVinceno a more important cog, maybe even the 5th starter who gets 26-30 minutes per game.

    But also, many have stated that he’s still worth the money if only to have another shooter for the playoffs, something we desperately needed against Miami. If you think he’s the wrong guy for that job based on who was available, so be it: that’s your opinion.

    But also, many have stated that he’s still worth the money if only to have another shooter for the playoffs, something we desperately needed against Miami.

    Then those “many” obviously haven’t looked at his playoff shooting percentages.

    The “many” run their mouths a lot and dream and wishcast, but it isn’t binding on the rest of us.

    If they spent the money on Donte DiVincenzo because he’ll make up for poor shooting from the other LCHBs in the playoffs they’re doing this wrong. Which — guess what? — they probably are.

    Evan Fournier was a *way* better player than DDV when the Knicks signed him, but unfortunately he got Thibodeau’d. That’s an old story by now, too.

    it’s possible believe me! very possible! we went through this over a decade ago when we monopolized the market on undersized pf’s.. remember that?

    What a bizarre example! There was not some widespread consensus that those moves were good, far from it. The Portis and Taj contracts were absolutely panned here.

    People were split on Randle…some things never change.

    The one contract that did kind of fit the “sign good players in unrestricted free agency when you can even if the fit it less than 100% clear on the day of the signing” mold was the one for Morris. All I can say is thank god we made that signing, and a heartfelt thank you to the Spurs for dropping the ball.

    It’s slightly strange to be sure when that privileging is passed off as the “scientific” view, but that happens, too.

    The ironic thing is everyone in the “giving Donte DiVincenzo 8% of the salary camp does not signal irreparable organizational dysfunction” camp acknowledges there’s a lot of uncertainty going forward. It’s those in the “we should’ve pocketed the MLE or used it in ways barred by the CBA” camp who speak in absolute certainties about the coming apocalypse.

    So I think it’s only fair to ask you guys to go on the record, being the only Brave Truth Tellers and Objective Analysts and all that.

    Under Leon Rose, will the Knicks ever attain a top 5 net rating? A conference finals appearance?

    If those don’t satisfy you, set some of your own damn benchmarks we can use to evaluate your absolute certainty about all of this. What would prove you wrong? This should a very easy exercise, you’ve made it clear you have all the answers.

    Otherwise you’re just making the absolute layup, boring ass prediction of taking the field over the Knicks to win a championship in the next few years. Yaaaaaaawn.

    If those don’t satisfy you, set some of your own damn benchmarks we can use to evaluate your absolute certainty about all of this. What would prove you wrong?

    Was I not proven right about the LCHBs and Tom Thibodeau lowering the ceiling of the team with his obsessive weird reliance on them in the playoffs?

    OK, I was. (*)

    I’m predicting the same next spring.

    How’s that?

    Or, if you want something funnier and less self-centered, I’m predicting another paper over Tom Thibodeau’s rock next spring.

    What would prove me wrong is if TT can work with an FO to build a team with guys that might not fit his mold, such that the team can beat paper. That would prove me wrong. I don’t have any reason whatsoever to fear that I’ll be proven wrong.

    (*) I was also generally right about the failure of Moneyball in the playoffs.

    “Was I not proven right about the LCHBs in the playoffs?”

    No. You were proven wrong about pretty much every post you have made in the past 3 years.

    A team traded 2 2nds and 7 million in cap space for Obi. That is not nothing. If he had no value Indiana could have simply used that cap space to sign a free agent. I am not saying that Obi was the lynchpin in our success but we took a guy who played 15 minutes a game for us last year and played fairly well and replaced him with nothing. That by definition makes our team worse.

    We could have kept him and still signed Donte.

    Obi got saucy with Thibs, Thibs wanted him gone, Thibs is on one of his “upswings” and so Obi’s gone.

    Nothing more to it than that.

    He was still on a rookie deal. There was no urgency or even reason to trade him now.

    When Thibs wasn’t on an “upswing,” the FO replaced Bullock with Fournier and Thibs pissed and moaned and sabotaged it. That’s how he rolls.

    that was pretty perfect right there captain fantastic…

    ’nuff said 🙂

    and probably always best to plan the menu with guests…so says emily post…

    what about kid stuff – do you have to hide soda in your house…i’ve started making sure there were always a few diet sodas visible in the pantry, throw off the scent…the real stuff though gets hidden under the bathroom cabinet…

    “Because they’re privileging their fandom of this awful franchise over their objective brains.”

    Sports are supposed to be fun, it’s not life and death. It also doesn’t speak to how smart you are depending on what team you root for cause if that was the case we’d all be fucking idiots for sticking with the Knicks for the past 20 years.

    My friends love teasing me about my sports teams cause they know how passionate I am about them and especially cause I’m from NY living in Miami. It’s actually fun and I take pride in rooting for such an awful franchise!

    It also doesn’t speak to how smart you are depending on what team you root for cause if that was the case we’d all be fucking idiots for sticking with the Knicks for the past 20 years.

    I’m a Knicks fan and a Lions fan. I shouldn’t have been permitted to reproduce if rooting interests correlated with intelligence.

    Back to Obi — Thibs just never really warmed to him. He’s not Thibs’s type. That’s also not real complicated.

    “Back to Obi — Thibs just never really warmed to him. He’s not Thibs’s type. That’s also not real complicated.”

    Yeah, neither was your man-crush Cam Reddish. Lo and behold, he was dumped by Portland. Go figure.

    BTW, did it escape E’s notice that the FO dumped first Taj and now DRose? You know, the guys who you said ad nauseum that were Thibs’s security blankets and that he couldn’t live without?

    Doesn’t seem to jibe with your “the FO does whatever Thibs wants” schtick, does it?

    Troll on, counselor!

    Thibs started Evan for an entire season and the first like 20 games of this past season. WTF are you even talking about?

    Unless we win five straight championships E is a genius and the rest of us are complete fucking morons

    A thing being possible doesn’t make it likely or true.

    but if it’s possible then these dozen or so statements that we got about ‘i don’t understand how signing good players to reasonable contracts is a bad thing’… like it can make sense now right? good.. then we made progress and got rid of one thing that we repeated a dozen times away…

    Honestly, that’s a fine enough stance, although there is probably a bigger move planned that would make DiVinceno a more important cog, maybe even the 5th starter who gets 26-30 minutes per game.

    that’s great! that’s not my only stance but if we’re just saying that we have to depend on another trade to make this make sense.. then that goes onto my other point … but i’m not gonna repeat .. at least today…

    What a bizarre example! There was not some widespread consensus that those moves were good, far from it. The Portis and Taj contracts were absolutely panned here.

    i wasn’t actually referring to that but it does still apply… if you can realize it then with the great power forward migration then you can understand how adding donte divicenzo doesn’t exactly move the needle and is about 4 years of mostly dead cap being created because of it….

    signing all the good players all the time doesn’t always work out.. nor should you seek those out all the time…

    E, Hubert, and Phanny, if you want to:

    1. Come on the blog of a team you supposedly like only to denigrate it and it’s fans and

    2. Pretend you’re “scientific” about it

    I can’t stop you. It’s your life, so please, enjoy it to the fullest.

    Was I not proven right about the LCHBs and Tom Thibodeau lowering the ceiling of the team with his obsessive weird reliance on them in the playoffs?

    I still don’t know what you mean by this unless you think we should have manifested a superstar player in the middle of the playoffs. Every team has role players.

    Randle, our only all-star and all-NBA player, was the person most responsible for our offensive struggles. But maybe you count All-NBA players as hustlebunnies, I don’t know because you never seem to answer this.

    And please find someone better than DD who we could’ve signed for the MLE.

    On Donte, just don’t E

    This really shouldn’t be taken as “denigration.” I have zero denigrative intent. I get denigrated far more than in the other direction.

    The “scientific” thing wasn’t brought up by me.

    I still don’t know what you mean by this

    The LCHBs are Josh Hart and Quentin Grimes. From there, what I mean kind of speaks for itself.

    Adding a duplicative LCHB in the wake of the Heat series is, as previously noted, best understood as comedy. (*) In context, weird obsessions can be quite funny. I’m taking it in that vein.

    (*) In itself, and in the negative obverse sense that it can’t possibly be serious.

    @E
    In my world, trading Obi was a favor to Obi and giving him a chance to earn a bigger role than he was capable of earning here.

    In your world, Thibs threw a fit and got rid of Obi because Obi hurt his feelings.

    I’m forever thankful that I get to live in my world and not yours.

    DDV is basically like having another IQ which we could’ve certainly used in the playoffs especially when the actual IQ was playing mostly awful on the offensive end then got injured.

    Having DDV in the rotation instead of Deuce is a hugely massive upgrade.

    but if it’s possible then these dozen or so statements that we got about ‘i don’t understand how signing good players to reasonable contracts is a bad thing’… like it can make sense now right? good.. then we made progress and got rid of one thing that we repeated a dozen times away…

    Nobody is saying nothing could possibly go wrong with Donte, we’re saying on balance it’s better to have a good player than a bad player or no player, even playing only 15min a night.

    We’re weighing the upside and the downside and the upside exceeds the downside by a fair margin. In fact, it’s not clear there is any downside absent cap or tax repercussions. As I’ve noted, it’s not clear those exist.

    i wasn’t actually referring to that but it does still apply… if you can realize it then with the great power forward migration then you can understand how adding donte divicenzo doesn’t exactly move the needle and is about 4 years of mostly dead cap being created because of it….

    At least that PF situation included a huge overpay for Bobby Portis to pry him away from RFA, but who turns out is actually a pretty good player.

    Randle was another guy, who again turned out not so bad.

    Marcus Morris played SF and landed us a 1st who turned into IQ and could’ve been Bane.

    Taj ended up playing backup C and was adequate in the role for multiple seasons and was at least moderately important for our 2021 playoff season.

    The on court product was bad that year but it didn’t work out so bad in the long run.

    Trading Obi for garbage made no sense. That was a bush league trade. I’m sorry, but “we’re trading him because we’re doing him a favor” is a dumb reason to trade somebody if your goal is to win basketball games.

    Obi was one of the few players on this team who had a high eFG%, and one of the few players who actually dunked a ball with any regularity. His three point shooting wasn’t great, but it was improving, and it was on high volume.

    I’m not really too concerned about WHY Obi was traded. Whatever the reason was, it was a dumb reason, because we could use him.

    The LCHBs are Josh Hart and Quentin Grimes. From there, what I mean kind of speaks for itself.

    Adding a duplicative LCHB in the wake of the Heat series is, as previously noted, best understood as comedy. (*) In context, weird obsessions can be quite funny. I’m taking it in that vein.

    I’ll ask again:

    What is the alternative to Hart and Grimes?

    What is the alternative to Donte?

    Why do you blame them and not Julius Randle?

    Unless we win five straight championships E is a genius and the rest of us are complete fucking morons

    Bar’s way lower.

    Tom Thibodeau takes a talented player who isn’t one of his “types,” stays in his lane, manages him successfully and gives the team a chance to be paper rather than the rock every single one of his teams has been.

    Let’s see him do that one single time, then we can move on to higher bars.

    (I obviously don’t think he can do that or will even try, which is why if I ran the team, he’d be out the door. But we’ll see. We have no choice.)

    Brunson and jHart to play on team USA with Mikal. Tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper tamper

    “Trading Obi for garbage made no sense. That was a bush league trade. I’m sorry, but “we’re trading him because we’re doing him a favor” is a dumb reason to trade somebody if your goal is to win basketball games.

    Obi was one of the few players on this team who had a high eFG%, and one of the few players who actually dunked a ball with any regularity. His three point shooting wasn’t great, but it was improving, and it was on high volume.

    I’m not really too concerned about WHY Obi was traded. Whatever the reason was, it was a dumb reason, because we could use him.”

    Except that not a single team in the association thought that he was worth more than 2 second rounders..

    I’ll ask again:

    What is the alternative to Hart and Grimes?

    Evan Fournier, but the bigger point is that there was no alternative explicitly because of TT’s weird obsession with LCHBs.

    The road to Miami was path-dependent. It didn’t happen by accident.

    Mark my words — Thibs doesn’t really like IQ that much, either. Wouldn’t be shocked at all to see him go bye-bye.

    Was I not proven right about the LCHBs and Tom Thibodeau lowering the ceiling of the team with his obsessive weird reliance on them in the playoffs?

    You flopped. You specifically predicted that they would not win a playoff series. It was actually the only time you made a measurable, concrete prediction, and you were so badly wrong I think it’s deterring you from doing it again.

    I think that’s why we only get vague stuff about hustle bunnies now. You can never be wrong if you “predict” things that are incomprehensible to anyone not immersed in the E Extended Universe.

    So I’ll ask again: under Leon Rose, will the Knicks ever attain a top 5 net rating? A conference finals appearance?

    Maybe you don’t find those benchmarks illuminating. Fine! But then set some of your own, and do not use the term “LHCB” in doing so.

    What are some concrete, measurable events that would prove you wrong?

    What’s more confusing, E’s extended universe or Marvel/DC extended universes?

    The roster got worse when we traded Obi. I mean that’s indisputable, we traded him zero present value.

    Again though, as unsympathetic as I am to Dolan’s finances I think even Steve Ballmer would avoid paying the luxury tax for a ~12 minute per game player if that’s all it took.

    So I wish the trade didn’t happen but recognize its inevitability. We absolutely have a glaring need at the backup 4 position now and I expect it to be filled.

    1. Come on the blog of a team you supposedly like only to denigrate it and it’s fans and

    wow.. some serious gatekeeping here huh ess? i guess we’re not fans and only those who fully commit to the ss are true fans…

    no i don’t have to agree with you to be a fan of the team…. i can very much walk and chew bubble gum just like many others…. in various fanbases who don’t like every … or even a lot of the other moves.. but can still root and support for the team… hell you probably even did it for a period in your knick fandom too right?

    again.. you can try to understand… and that doesn’t mean the same thing as agreeing… which is probably tripping you up… just understand the viewpoint.. acknowledge basic facts… and figure out which are actually open to preference and you can then come to an understanding how someone arrived at that preference… very simple..

    you’re making some progress which i appreciate but statements like what you just made makes me believe that you still don’t get it… and maybe you never will but things will go alot better if you try… i promise…

    Watch this…….I am going to agree with both JK47 and E.

    As flawed as Obi was, he changed the energy on the floor. His acceleration in the open court led to easy baskets and interrupted the opposing team’s rhythm. Improved shooting was something that was evolving with Obi’s game. Exiling him to Indiana was crap.

    Thibs got pissy about Obi’s complaining. I have a hunch that Julius also had something to do with this decision – even if it was indirectly. The Obi chatter never completely went away and Julius is one sensitive dude. Now Randle doesn’t have to look over his shoulder every time he falls asleep on defense. He is the man and that is that.

    but the bigger point is that there was no alternative explicitly because of TT’s weird obsession with LCHBs.

    The alternatives to hustle bunnies aren’t freely available. Again, who are the alternatives we could have gotten?

    Evan Fournier

    Fournier played 2358 minutes last year and was the starter on opening day this year. And he shot 40.4% inside the arc and 30.7% outside it and put up a -4.0 BPM.

    I struggle to see where Thibs wasn’t willing to work with him or where he made the wrong choice

    So I’ll ask again: under Leon Rose, will the Knicks ever attain a top 5 net rating? A conference finals appearance?

    Who cares?

    A conference finals appearance is now some sort of smashing mic drop “success.” How far we’ve fallen.

    The concrete, measurable step is apparently Thibodeau doing something that isn’t Thibodeau-esque, as judged by E. So I guess it would mean giving like 2,000 minutes to some head-up-ass player like Cam Reddish or something, somebody who is most definitely not a “hustlebunny” but who is good at missing a lot of shots and not giving a shit about defense. Then E will give Tom Thibodeau and the Knicks some credit.

    We’re already giving a million minutes and shots to RJ Barrett, who by all accounts is not a hustlebunny, but that’s not good enough for Thibs to meet this strange, arbitrary rock/paper standard. We need MORE guys like RJ throwing up more bricks and getting one steal every 400 minutes. Then we’ll be onto something.

    No matter which side of the optimists/pessimists’ religion wars they come from, I have a problem with every post that implies that other posters opinions are based on “lack of intelligence” or that people “don’t understand” some kind of revealed truth.

    And criticizing has nothing to do with “hate”, without different opinions the world would be a boring place.

    On the other side, no matter how many “reasonable” issues some of us have with Thibs’ peculiarities*, Randle’s defense and attitude**, Leon’s draft idiosyncrasy***, Obi’s mismanagement****, to scream about them again and again, to spam thread after thread, will not change the reality.
    It doesn’t get Thibs or Leon fired, it doesn’t get Julius traded, it doesn’t take Obi back, the only effect it gets is to poison this blog.

    * I do
    ** I do
    *** I do
    **** I do

    @JK
    I get that two seconds and cap space wasn’t ideal. But imo it was pretty close to Obi’s actual value. If Obi wanted out, I don’t think we get much out of forcing him to play 14 minutes a game. He and RJ were both negatives in terms of contribution to winning. This off-season has put us in a position to reduce both of their minutes, and if RJ improves we still have access to his upside. Between RJ and Obi I woukd have rather bet on RJ fulfilling his upside here. And RJ might not get the chance either, and that might not be the end of the world. We’ll see.

    Heh. Absolutely terrified to make anything resembling a prediction.

    Makes sense, given how Cam Reddish’s career turned out.

    There’s no reason to make pointless predictions. A top 5 rating isn’t success and neither is a conference finals appearance.

    Chris Drury’s Rangers made a conference finals appearance and went up 2-0 in his first year and he still gets ripped up and down on sites similar to this.

    In the vast, vast majority of North American major sports markets, winning a single playoff series means next to nothing. It’s just not a big deal. At all. So who gives a shit about any predictions about it? It’s a meaningless “milestone.”

    I’m still waiting for someone to answer why no one in the association thought Obi was worth more than 2 seconds. Absent that, it seems like some weird twist on the Sunk Cost fallacy.

    we’re saying on balance it’s better to have a good player than a bad player or no player, even playing only 15min a night.

    that’s not true! that’s like saying the stock market always goes up… yes sometimes that’s true.. but there exists some occurrences where getting a good player is not always the right idea… i gave you examples…

    if you understand that you can’t sign 10 power forwards or get tj mcconnel as your third pg… or trading for jarrett allen to be our third center… then you can understand this is very similar… playing donte divicenzo over grimes for some minutes a game and cannibalizing some other minutes from other players who are roughly around his skill level… is not adding many if any wins to our ledger…

    if you say it’s insurance ok.. i understand that! but that’s a lot of money for insurance isn’t it? maybe? possibly? i don’t know tell me…

    The on court product was bad that year but it didn’t work out so bad in the long run.

    for other teams…. and it worked out on those other teams because we had mostly short term commitments to those players… we do not have that luxury here… these guys are all here for at least 4 years…

    that’s the difference….

    you still don’t get it… and maybe you never will

    Lol maybe I just need more of your exquisite “bus” analogies.

    Weren’t the Rangers in the Stanley Cup Finals in 2014? The Knicks haven’t been to a Conference Finals since 2000, NBA Finals since 1999 and haven’t won a championship since 1973. They’re not the Yankees or NY Giants.

    It’s not really that relevant to me whether Obi was worth more than two seconds on the open market. He was worth more to the Knicks RIGHT NOW than the two seconds, and we’re in win-now mode and it’s not clear that we’re going to find a better backup 4.

    To me the better play would have been to try to rehabilitate his value, and see if he could build on his improving stretch 4 game rather than to convert him into essentially nothing. There is the issue of James Dolan’s money, which I of course give zero shits about but I do acknowledge it’s a real thing.

    There’s no reason to make pointless predictions. A top 5 rating isn’t success and neither is a conference finals appearance.

    So, you get to play Smart Guy On The Internet until the Knicks win a championship. I think we all see that pretty clearly.

    Got any other edgy predictions? What’s your take on Marianne Williamson’s chances to win the White House, or for the sun to rise in the west tomorrow?

    Still missing the thing where not venturing a guess as to whether the Knicks will ever have a top 5 net rating makes you the Smartest Guy on the Internet.

    I don’t know if they ever will.

    Stupid enough?

    There’s just obviously no scenario in which you could ever possibly be wrong about anything, and every single thing that happens short of the Knicks winning a title confirms your eternal correctness.

    This is not a lot different from “Phil Jackson was a good GM tho.” It’s a slightly different flavor of that.

    “It’s not really that relevant to me whether Obi was worth more than two seconds on the open market.”

    Well you’re certainly entitled to fee that way, but my sense is that if Obi could be had for 2 seconds, then a better player could be had for a protected first. So we’re debating the difference between two seconds and a protected first, which to me is marginal.

    “He was worth more to the Knicks RIGHT NOW than the two seconds, and we’re in win-now mode and it’s not clear that we’re going to find a better backup 4.”

    Again, I think it would be quite easy to find a better backup 4 by using a protected first…but given how bad Obi was, if we just want to tread water, we might not need to. I truly doubt that Obi is any better as a backup 4 than either RJ or JHart. But even if he is, the lack of interest in Obi across the league speaks for itself.

    I’ve compared Obi to Kenny Walker maybe I should’ve compared him to John Wallace.

    if you understand that you can’t sign 10 power forwards or get tj mcconnel as your third pg… or trading for jarrett allen to be our third center… then you can understand this is very similar…

    But we don’t have 10 PFs or 3 PGs or an unnecessary C, and so I’m tailoring my conclusion to our current circumstance.

    Donte will get minutes on a nightly basis and play a substantial role if any of Brunson, IQ, Grimes, Hart, RJ, or Randle get injured with Hart or RJ sliding up if a PF gets hurt. He’s serving as the primary insurance for 4 different positions with somebody else sliding up if a PF goes down.

    for other teams

    Three of them worked out well to extremely well for us.

    these guys are all here for at least 4 years…

    Only if none of them get traded.

    Neither long-term nor short term deals are inherently good or bad. Sometimes you want to trade an expiring player, sometimes you wish you had them on a lower number an extra year.

    But we don’t have 10 PFs or 3 PGs or an unnecessary C, and so I’m tailoring my conclusion to our current circumstance.

    that’s great! so it can happen! so this statement about….

    we’re saying on balance it’s better to have a good player than a bad player or no player, even playing only 15min a night.

    not true! great… if you want to tailor it to.. how this specific player is a on balance a good player or no player here… then change how you say it and explain… we’ve progressed as a blog just now… we agreed! thank you for playing! please come again!

    The best criticism of the Donte signing I’ve seen is that we have a surplus of players that are the not tall. I think that is fair. I don’t think the players are duplicative. I think they can defend bigs, and if size at the 4 is a problem, iHart and Sims can play spot minutes. I don’t think it will be a problem and I don’t think offenses will want to face this team.

    The biggest problem this team ran into was the spacing. We had injuries to Randle, Grimes, and IQ. Donte shores up the shooting and also gives us solid ball handling and plus defense. The current roster will be better than the one we started last year with. There might be another move coming, maybe it will help, but I don’t think it’s necessary.

    Let me put it this way: Donte had significant interest around the league for something around the MLE. How much interest will Obi have around the league at that figure when he is a UFA or RFA? In other words, what will his next contract look like?

    I’m thinking something in the high 9 digits, i.e. less than Donte’s deal. Anyone want to go on the record about this?

    not true! great… if you want to tailor it to.. how this specific player is a on balance a good player or no player here… then change how you say it and explain… we’ve progressed as a blog just now… we agreed! thank you for playing! please come again!

    Sometimes context is implied. We’re not talking about a hypothetical player or situation, we’re talking about Donte Divincenzo on the New York Knicks on a specific contract with a specific salary cap and luxury tax in the year 2023.

    You’re attempting to give counter examples that aren’t particularly apt or giving one that worked out well for us. So to the extent I’ve strayed from that narrow topic it’s largely been to refute those points.

    And in toto you’ve failed to demonstrate any severe repercussions for signing Donte Divincenzo. I’ve responded to you at all turns, so again:

    What is the downside to signing Donte that is so severe that it makes him unworthy of signing?

    What’s so terrible about paying him the MLE if there’s no tax penalties, let alone 1st apron penalties?

    Does any of that outweigh the advantages of signing him for the purposes and benefits that various posters have outlined?

    The downside, combined with the pointless Toppin trade, is the reiteration of the organization’s roster-building philosophy. That’s what has so many people yipping about it. It’s completely understandable.

    People want their team to be a real contender.

    And in toto you’ve failed to demonstrate any severe repercussions for signing Donte Divincenzo. I’ve responded to you at all turns, so again:

    uh no you haven’t… i don’t respond to most of what you say because it’s not in good faith.. you don’t answer any of my questions directly but instead quote what i say.. and do your ‘what-about-ism’…. you dodge basically every question that i have.. they’re not rhetorical!

    but here i’ll answer it … AGAIN…. it’s about the lack of upside and yes limitations you have in year 3 and 4.. and possibly even 2 should more extreme luck… and again it’s not about JUST divicenzo.. it’s signing every single one of those bench players more than they should be for how we are deploying them…

    if you pay your 8th man like your 5th man.. that’s not good!

    if you pay your 7th man like your 4th man… that’s not good!

    if you pay your 6th man like your starting pg.. that’s not good!

    collectively any of those things aren’t tremendously crippling… just like signing each of those power forwards weren’t individually crippling on it’s own… and just like bringing the band back weren’t extremely crippling…

    but it doesn’t have to go to those extreme crippling prevent future star trades in order for it to hurt and impede you… you die by a thousand cuts! and yes there are scenarios where it does limit you…. just like how fournier.. rose… noel.. burks… walker… and those ‘harmless’ contracts limited us.. to this day! we could very easily have signed brown to that essentially one year deal that the pacers got… that would be so much more preferable to 4 years of donte… much more preferable and everyone was belly laughing over that… it’s a quarter of the commitment and half the dollars for the same exact player!

    and what happens in year 3 and 4? with brunson’s extension… we’re right up against the apron with this exact team? oooh dont worry there’s going to be a trade… that’s the problem! you have to assume a trade…

    just think back to 2020 and if everyone was signed to 4 year deals… kinda shitty right? would it have been ok to justify everything with… well we’ll just make a trade… no that’s ridiculous right?

    can we acknowledge that basic fact or is this completely wrong? can you answer that without going into a completely different topic? this was all covered previously…. this is why i say it’s like talking to a brick wall and no one wants to understand… this was all there and you think i didn’t address it… just try to understand and maybe you will…

    @JK
    I 100% agree with you on Dolans money.

    Under the new CBA, it’s not just Dolan’s money.

    You want to maintain space to the first apron. If a sign and trade would put you above the first apron, you can’t do it. If a trade puts you above the first apron, then you can only salary match 110% instead of 125%. That means the guy you’re bringing in can only be 10% higher paid than the contracts you send out. If you’re targeting a max guy, this 15% differential matters. It’s making it harder for you to add salary and potentially forcing you to send out more good contracts. Itgives you less options on the packages you can send, especially if the team you’re dealing with is trying to take back less salary.
    If you are below the luxury tax, you can add at least 7 million in salary before hitting the apron. Let’s say you want the option of adding a max player like Dame or PG13 (42.49 million). 110% matching you have to send 38.63 M in contracts out. 125% matching only 33.99 M.
    Hopefully that explains the gist of it. Appeal to authority trigger warning but I trust Brock Aller with this stuff way more than myself or anyone on this board.

    Z-Man – I think getting cap relief from the Obi trade was a big part of it. That is my guess why the return was so low. We had to find a team that both wanted him and could absorb his contract without returning any salary. I think we were trying to avoid the luxury tax and with Donte and Obi, we would have hit it. It’s a dumb reason and I’d rather have kept Obi but I think that is why the return seemed low.

    On the open market this year I’m guessing Obi would have gotten MLE-type money. The Athletic did a value column for Obi and many of the GMs put his value well above $10 million.

    At the end of the day, we gave up a rotation piece and did not replace him. We needed another forward before the trade and now we are woefully short of capable forwards on this roster.

    “Evan Fournier was a *way* better player than DDV when the Knicks signed him”

    This is such a stupid take that, well, I’ll just leave it there. Stupid.

    Yeah, he was a better 3 PT shooter. And an unplayable defender. Which makes him unplayable now that we’ve moved beyond ‘Steve Novak’ in terms of strategic planning.

    Stupid Take 1,000. So tiresome.

    “Who cares?

    A conference finals appearance is now some sort of smashing mic drop “success.” How far we’ve fallen”

    Because we’ve come from a 17 win season to discussing this as a real thing. Stupid. So trolling and stupid. E, seriously, get a life.

    it’s about the lack of upside and yes limitations you have in year 3 and 4.. and possibly even 2 should more extreme luck… and again it’s not about JUST divicenzo.. it’s signing every single one of those bench players more than they should be for how we are deploying them…

    if you pay your 8th man like your 5th man.. that’s not good!

    if you pay your 7th man like your 4th man… that’s not good!

    if you pay your 6th man like your starting pg.. that’s not good!

    As I’ve responded many times, it’s only as bad as the consequences. As we’ve established, there aren’t any impending or unavoidable consequences for Donte or the rest of our roster 1-15 due to our cap situation.

    You’ve failed to bring to light any evidence that your initial premise is sound. I’ve repeatedly questioned it. Questioning a premise is widely considered a response to an argument.

    So please, show me where these consequences are without waving your hand and just kind of saying ‘they’re probably there’?

    you die by a thousand cuts! and yes there are scenarios where it does limit you…. just like how fournier.. rose… noel.. burks… walker… and those ‘harmless’ contracts limited us.. to this day!

    This appears to be the sole consequence you can come up with.

    First, we still need to field a team and play this coming season.

    Second, and more importantly, most stars move via trades that require matching salaries.

    We can prepare for one scenario or another, but I’d rather prepare for the more likely scenario.

    If need be, we can always spend the picks to trade those contracts like we did last time. It sucks, but it’s a cost you’re happy to pay if a player is worth it. Note, none of the players we’re currently signing/extending are over 30.

    we could very easily have signed brown to that essentially one year deal that the pacers got… that would be so much more preferable to 4 years of donte… much more preferable and everyone was belly laughing over that… it’s a quarter of the commitment and half the dollars for the same exact player!

    I’m unsure how we could’ve signed Brown, were still over the cap even without Fournier.

    Brown’s deal is great for Brown, but he can also walk for nothing much sooner. Players are assets and it’s worth accumulating assets instead of letting them expire.

    Again, there’s nothing intrinsically better about short term deals.

    Moreover, the CBA is more punitive towards AAV than total dollars. There would be more of the consequences you fear if we had Brown’s deal instead of Donte’s

    oooh dont worry there’s going to be a trade… that’s the problem! you have to assume a trade…

    I don’t need to assume a trade happens because signing DD makes us better on the court today. A trade is merely an upside scenario.

    And again I’ll ask, when exactly does this happen and how far will we be above or below the super apron? What assumptions are you making to get there?

    This remains an unjustified assertion.

    uh no you haven’t… i don’t respond to most of what you say because it’s not in good faith.. you don’t answer any of my questions directly but instead quote what i say.. and do your ‘what-about-ism’…. you dodge basically every question that i have.. they’re not rhetorical!

    I answer your questions, then I dunk on you.

    Dunking on you and making a valid argument aren’t mutually exclusive. You just ignore my point to hammer the bad consequences of spending money without elucidating those consequences.

    My favorite band is Echo and the Low-Ceiling-Hustle-Bunnymen

    Wtf has happened!!!???!!!
    I missed a few weeks and pessimists like Lazarus have risen from the dead!!!????!!!
    ;-ppp

    I don’t know anything about the Detroit Lions, but if they’ve been as bad as the Knicks have been in my lifetime, as has been implied, then I think E may just suffer from a case of Munchausen by proxy in which he gains satisfaction and attention from the suffering of his sports teams.

    In a normal relationship, if you know your partner is never going to satisfy you, you have two rational options: 1) change your expectations, or 2) file for divorce. Luckily for E and the Knicks they don’t have any children together, so divorce is pretty easy. And once you’re free, you will see that happiness can be found elsewhere. I have a few friends that I can fix you up with. One is the Spurs. Another is the Thunder. But I think you may really like my friend the Orlando Magic. They are young and cute and, though they do hustle, it’s not like bunnies. More like beavers building a dam. Very purposeful and efficient. Try them!

    As we’ve established, there aren’t any impending or unavoidable consequences for Donte or the rest of our roster 1-15 due to our cap situation.

    nobody was contending it would be a bad signing if it was a 1 or 2 year deal! no one! i even flat out said it a couple times! if you dont’ allow for any consequences you won’t get any response… amazing how that works right? like you almost setup a scenario where you could never get an adequate response…

    if you say i have yet to respond to any of your questions.. but oh i did mention it but you dont’ count it for whatever reason… that’s sort of scummy isn’t it? like you’re literally handwaving everything i’m saying because they don’t count in your book…. and saying i didn’t respond…

    what counts as a response? what can i do to so that i can respond to eb in a manner that he sees fit… help me help you….

    I don’t need to assume a trade happens because signing DD makes us better on the court today. A trade is merely an upside scenario.

    oh you sly dog! got me there! is this like shrodinger’s cat where you simultaneously say that you did AND didn’t assume a trade can happen? masterful…

    I answer your questions, then I dunk on you.

    you? dunk on me? it’s like i’m talking to rudy giuliani….

    look i dunno what’s going on in your life to be this hateful over basketball.. but normal non-emotionally invested people can at least acknowledge some parts of a reasonable discussion and move forward on items they can disagree with… that’s clearly not happening with you…

    so really next time if i don’t address your points.. don’t take it arrogantly or that you need that kind of attention on that day…. i probably just don’t feel like having every single part of what i say never be acknowledged or answered and just so you can feel that you dunked on me no matter what i say….

    i dunno most people don’t really like even being around guys like that cause they’re just not cool people you know… but i dunno i guess you don’t have that problem cause you get everything right….

    you know, I don’t think I’m really getting everyone’s point…

    maybe tomorrow folks will take another shot at explaining themselves, and letting other folks know just how crazy they are for not getting it…

    I look forward to it…
    They say our love won’t pay the rent
    Before it’s earned, our money’s all been spent
    I guess that’s so, we don’t have a lot
    But at least I’m sure of all the things we got

    Babe
    I got you, babe
    I got you, babe

    we all just want a little attention and to be understood…

    jeez, kind of sucks now jowles has something better to do than us…

    you know you’re not better than us – you’re one of us too…

    thank you so much for that explanation BJ…

    I had no idea…I thought it was just some payroll tax thing…

    wow, I see now it restricts the roster moves you can even make…

    ‘I’m thinking something in the high 9 digits, i.e. less than Donte’s deal. Anyone want to go on the record about this?’

    Z–Man, BenR made a good argument to explain the low take, but I’ll go out on a limb and say that come next year Obi’s going to be worth a good deal more. There’s some world where Obi was held back by his situation (needs regular playing time to get comfortable, see end of year before last — and Thibs does have a record of driving certain player’s worth into paste), and if he gets it he’ll end up a viable NBA starter, or at worst an important rotation player. I hope I’m living in that world.

    Prove me wrong in a year. I’ll take the loss and be sad, but I’ll live.

    : a garment usually of cloth, plastic, or leather usually tied around the waist and used to protect clothing or adorn a costume
    : something that suggests or resembles an apron in shape, position, or use: such as
    a : the lower member under the sill of the interior casing of a window
    b : an upward or downward vertical extension of a bathroom fixture (such as a sink or tub)
    c : an endless belt for carrying material
    d : an extensive fan-shaped deposit of detritus
    e : the part of the stage in front of the proscenium arch
    f : the area along the waterfront edge of a pier or wharf
    g : a shield (as of concrete or gravel) to protect against erosion (as of a waterway) by water
    h : the extensive paved part of an airport immediately adjacent to the terminal area or hangars

    I don’t see anything about NBA CBA here.

    Tom Thibodeau’s career is a never-ending loop of regular-season scissor smashing followed up by losing to paper in the playoffs. (*)

    (*) Usually punctuated and followed by demanding that the front office get him more rock, or pouting and whining when they make even the smallest lurch toward trying to compete better with paper. Front offices with backbone get sick of him and move on.

    He’s not wrong.

    The best criticism of the Donte signing I’ve seen is that we have a surplus of players that are the not tall. I think that is fair.

    That was my criticism of the roster.

    I called the Donte signing “a decent player at market price.”

    I don’t think Leon could have solved any of the roster problems with the MLE.

    Donte makes sense. I like the Nova connection. He’s just not “a steal.” He’s an expensive backup guard.

    I’m completely fine with the Divincenzo contract, with the caveat we haven’t seen the exact numbers yet, have we?

    djphan has a point with the fact that he’s probably our 8th or 9th guy but he’s getting the full MLE. But that is more a function of how “underpaid” our first 2-3 guys are as compared with most teams’ first 2-3 guys.

    It is true that Brunson and Randle probably will need new contracts for 2025-2026. Brunson possibly will be up for a max, or 30% of the cap. Randle will be eligible for the 35% max but I don’t know that he will justify that number. (I really don’t think it would be a good use of resources to give those two 65% of the cap per year). Even so — the cap is projected to be about $170MM that year — at that point, Divincenzo’s salary will be 7.6% of the cap — eminently movable and probably an asset.

    I still imagine there is a consolidation move coming, but even if there isn’t, I think the team is probably better than last year, assuming health. Even if 6’4″ Josh Hart is taking all the Obi minutes, I think that’s probably a net benefit — better rebounder (both O and D) and defender than Obi, and more versatile on offense too.

    The big problem comes if Randle gets hurt — there literally are no PF-playable guys that are 6’8″+ on the team that aren’t named Randle. Although maybe this is the FO’s way of forcing Thibs to play small, like when Woodson was forced to play Melo at PF because of injuries — having 4 of RJ/Hart/Donte/Quickley/Brunson/Grimes on the floor would be pretty fun.

    I’m still interested to see what Hart’s extension number is. I am not totally sure why we would extend him for 4/80 which is what’s being reported.

    Long meandering post but are we allowed to extend Quickley for 5 years? Still think something like 5/110-120 on a descending contract would be a good compromise — IQ has made about $6.5MM in his career so far — I think it would be very hard to imagine he would turn down $110MM of guaranteed money. And he’s just a winning player – that contract would be an asset from the team perspective, and what extensions for non-max players should be — a tradeoff for the player and team –> tons of guaranteed money and the security it implies for the player, but the team gets some level of discount.

    In the vast, vast majority of North American major sports markets, winning a single playoff series means next to nothing.

    You’re saying this as a Detroit Lions’ fan?????
    Seriously, my guy?

    Context matters… you think Cincinnati Reds fans would agree to this? Pittsburgh Pirates fans? Marlins fans? Timberwolves fans? Kings fans? Magic fans? Hornet fans? Hell, I’m a Giants fan and I was ELATED they beat the Vikes on the road last season in the Wildcard round.

    Having DDV in the rotation instead of Deuce is a hugely massive upgrade.

    Cosign.
    Didn’t we see our bench relatively go to poop against Miami? And could you argue that was one of the factors that lead to our defeat? If DDV means we have another trusted guard who can pass, rebound, defend and SHOOT – sign me up.
    And 4/50 is not expensive these days for a bench guy. You’re really not getting upper-level bench/occasional starter play for less than 11mil per anymore.

    I do hope the team finds a defensive backup 4 that can bang inside a lil and has a bit of a J.

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