Knicks Morning News (2023.05.18)

… and then if they beat the 8 seed, in the ECF they’ll likely play a team coached by Joe Mazzulla …

Feels so weird to be rooting for the Miami Heat, but the enemy of my more hated enemy is my friend, I guess?

Mainly, though, I’m rooting for the Western teams. I know there is rightfully a lot of Lakers disdain on here. But as someone tired of the old men who refuse to admit that LeBron might even have a case to be the GOAT, I wouldn’t mind him winning yet another ring that will force them to come up with new ridiculous arguments for why Michael is so obviously better.

BEEF ALERT!!!

It’s not the extra rings, it’s Michael’s ability to get a shot off any time he wanted and hit it, in major clutch possessions, that’s the tiny differentiator and puts him over the top.

Everyone (hopefully) has seen the Cavs series winner in 1989 and the final possession against the Jazz in the Last Dance year (which was preceded by another similar possession and a Jordan steal from Malone). The Jazz were up three and had the ball with like a minute to go in that game. Those were both “give the ball to Michael and get the fuck out of the way” offensive sets.

He did that all the time.

Imagine the Knicks in Game 6 against the Heat in the down two possession with a guy who you could give the ball to, clear out, and the Heat couldn’t stop him and he’d hit the shot. And then if there was another possession, he’d do it again. And then extend that concept out to basically every fourth quarter possession. That’s Jordan.

No metric can really measure that.

His defensive skills need no discussion or enhancement — he’s the best defensive wing in the history of the association.

And I never even liked the guy.

LeBron James is a fantastic player and his GOAT case is easy to understand and makes sense. It’s just ultimately unconvincing. It has nothing to do with age.

Each generation gets to have its own heroes; this one, however, seems to be overly insistent on its prerogatives.

I think the GOAT conversation will go on forever, it’s very hard to compare players of different eras. Why are Jordan and Lebron better than Kareem, Russell and Wilt? Most of us never saw Wilt and Russell play, and only caught late career Kareem.

I don’t know why people are talking about Ayton, he’s a bad defender and that is the reason he’s not thriving in Phoenix. Do you want to try it with a worse supporting cast? Or is our supporting cast better? If we are trying to upgrade from Mitch, i’d check Myles Turner availability. I bet Indy only extended him to be able to trade him, which is better than letting him walk this summer. I love Mitch, but if Myles Turner is still available, i think we should try to get him. Although i don’t think it’s a big upgrade, it still is an upgrade as he’s a much more well rounded player than Mitch. And because iHart is more well rounded too, maybe this makes it easier for the rest of the team to trust the Cs to do more than dunks/putbacks. Otoh, the only stat that Mitch is clearly better than Myles is one of our biggest strengths (OREBs), but i think i’d still do it. I’m guessing it’d be a light package, or else this isn’t even a conversation. Would Indy bite on a package of Mitch + Obi + DET protected pick?

Agree, Cyber — and the MJ/LBJ one is even tougher because one of MJ’s specialties and calling cards — the impossible to stop, dead-eye, midrange jumper — has been taken out of the game because of the math. What MJ could do on his own has been quasi-replaced by spacing, the three-point line, and more ball movement.

At least until the biggest possessions (we just witnessed some of them) …. At that point, I want a singular, unstoppable offensive force.

I have a lot of respect for this iteration of the Heat.

They aren’t the most talented team but their mental strenght is incredible, they never beat themselves and you need to play 48 mistake-free minutes every single time to overcome them.

It must be an exhausting, grueling experience play game after game against a phalanx of terminators…

They aren’t the most talented team but their mental strenght is incredible, they never beat themselves and you need to play 48 mistake-free minutes every single time to overcome them.

I think this is huge – “they never beat themselves” – and it was what made our team make even more mistakes, because you’re getting behind and you start trying things you’re not used to, in hopes of surprising them and have an advantage, but that behaviour is always doomed (i guess i need to pay royalties to Brian on this 😛). We need some fine tuning and i think this experience will be valuable to our players when the next playoffs come around, maybe they’ll beat themselves a lot less.

Also, when your two best players are good on both ends and, more important, they have the same commitment on offense and defense, everyone else feel obliged to at least try to defend (I’m looking at you Julius Randle)…

And i’d like to say me and E are in agreement, so the world must be coming to an end. It was great to know all of you! 😀

Lebron (as of an article I found from 2021) went 7-15 on go ahead shots in the last 5 seconds during his playoffs career even though he’s not a guy who can get up shots in the clutch like MJ.

Almost any way you slice it MJ & Lebron are pretty indistinguishable at the their peaks and for things like clutch shots hit or whatever it’s mostly just what story you want to tell. Lebron just done it so much longer and without being so mentally soft that he had to quit in his prime.

The Athletic has a piece today on hypotheticals should Detroit trade its #5 slot. One is Knicks parting with RJ, Evan + a 2024 1st (with some but not named protections) and receiving Bojan, Wiseman and the #5.

I would do that in a heartbeat.

Having watched and followed NBA basketball for as long or longer than anyone on this site, I think the person for which the best argument of GOAT in, let’s call it, his long prime, is Michael Jordan.

You can make strong counterarguments for Kareem, LeBron, and Russell. But I would argue that MJ was above them all. During their 6 championship runs, Jordan was in total command, demanding the ball on every key possession and executing winning plays time after time after time. Of all the championship caliber teams the Bulls vanquished, once Jordan figured out the Jordan rules, none of the great coaches, teams and players he faced could devise a way to stop him. And this was during the no holds barred ’90’s where flagrant fouls were the norm. Although supremely talented, his intimidating mean streak and killer instinct set him apart from the more physically talented LeBron, Kareem, and Wilt…and his skillset and meanness set him apart from Russell.

and without being so mentally soft that he had to quit in his prime.

or possibly more accurately..

and without the gambling habit that had him suspended in his prime.

MJ vs. Lebron. Now this is a debate I can get behind!

I was a young kid when Jordan came into the league and I worshipped him in the 80s and early 90s. Then I became a Knicks fan and by the end of his Bulls run I was tired as hell of MJ.

But I think about it this way.

MJ face much tougher playoff competition for most of his career in the Eastern Conference. In the 80s he faced the Celtics and Pistons. Then when he started winning rings he still had to get through The Knicks, The Pacers, The Heat, The Magic with Shaq and Penny.

Lebron played most of his career on the Cavs or Heat and let’s be real. The Eastern Conference up until a few years ago has been the much weaker conference. Ironically, now that Lebron is out West, the Western Conference is weaker.

So this is why Lebron has gone to more Finals than MJ. He had an easier path to get there.

But in the Finals Lebron has faced tougher competition. The Spurs were the way better team when he first went. And I’d say the last time he played hte spurs with the heat, the spurs were the better team then. And then, of course, he faced Golden State who every time he faced them, they were the favorites, especially once they got Durant.

So that is why Jordan is 6 for 6 in the Finals. The only Finals LEbron probably should have won was the one against Dallas but even then, I think that Dallas team was actually the more complete team.

Lakers were basically at the end of their run when MJ faced them. Portland, The Suns, The Sonics…all inferior teams. They were good but Bulls were favorites. Jazz were great too but still I think Bulls were the better team. Maybe that last year the Jazz were better but MJ never went to 7 games in the finals.

If you need someone to win you one game and carry a team. MJ no doubt. You need someone to score 20 in the 4th or hit a winning shot? MJ.

But if I’m starting an NBA franchise from scratch and I get to pick one player who will play his entire career with my team? I’m picking Lebron. Lebron has longevity and versality going for him. Want him to run point? Play PF or SF or even Center? Need rebounding, playmaking ,defense, and scoring? Lebron.

So I think honestly it’s a draw. Except that basketball is sport and we watch sports for the drama and when it came to thrilling moments. No one beats MJ.

But then again, Lebron came back from 3-1 against the winningest regular season team of all time. He will always have that.

I would argue that if you replaced LeBron on all of his finals team with Michael Jordan, those teams would have more championships. But that’s just me. I don’t really have any skin in the game, and as I said, strong arguments can be made (and have been made) for any of the GOAT-level 5.

And yeah, I’d kind of like to see Lebron win one more. But I’d also like to see Jokic win one and yeah, I hate tos ay it, but I’d like to see The Heat and, more specifically, butler win one. If for no other reason then we can say we lost to the champs. And also, Butler is amazing and deserves a ring.

Just not the celtics. Never the celtics. I hate the heat but I respect them.

And I really do not want a Celtics Lakers finals. So tired of the “historic” rivalry although I’m sure that’s what Silver wants.

I think labeling MJ as some kind of quitter is a joke. If anything, he got bored because he had proven that there wasn’t really a challenge left for him anymore in basketball. No one could even press him to a game 7, or stop him whenever he decided it was time to win.

So he tried a different challenge….baseball. He sucked at it.

Then he comes back to the NBA and wins 3 more championships with ease.

What does it say when a guy is so dominant that he becomes bored by winning all the time? That he’s a fucking nut job? That’s fair.

But mentally soft? Lol. (Don’t worry DRed, I’m not really taking you seriously…)

This is what I mean by narratives: Jordan factually burned out and quit twice. That’s fine, it’s his life and he pushed himself like a maniac. But it happened, and the Jordanphiles invent things like a gambling conspiracy because quitting and going home goes against the narrative of Jordan as the ultimate competitive winner.

Maybe. But I don’t think replacing Lebron with Jordan on that first Cavs team that went to the finals would have meant they beat the spurs. That team was garbage and only got to the finals because the East was hella weak at that point and Lebron carried their ass to the finals. No way that team with Jordan beats peak Spurs with Duncan, Parker and Ginobli.

And I don’t really think Jordan on the Cavs beats the Warriors once they added Durant. Maybe the first time The Cavs lost to the warriors in 2015.

Probably beats Dallas and the spurs when they beat the heat.

No one could even press him to a game 7, or stop him whenever he decided it was time to win.

He’d gone to a game seven with a team called the NY Knicks the year before he quit. Jordan people can’t accept reality. Here, listen to what the man himself said: “”Physically I was exhausted, but mentally I was way past exhausted,” he said, per ESPN’s Rachel Nichols. “When you try to do something repetitively, you lose some of the hunger, and some of the edge.”

Jordan needed to take time off for self care to prioritize his mental health. He was a wellness trailblazer.

Michael is so obviously better.

IMO greatness in any sport can be measured statistically, but when it comes to comparing greats within a sport, imo it must be observed.

Great players will always dominate inferior players. That’s because they have huge physical skill advantages. But differences can also be mental. Those only reveal themselves when faced with a similar adversary and circumstances require them.

It’s about the ability to stand up to extreme pressure, to show up with your best game every night, the ability to dig deeper than anyone imagined possible at the key moments, the ability to remain level headed and continue fighting at 100% even when things are going badly, etc… It’s having a will to win that supersedes all the other important things in life.

Greats lose too, but for the greatest of the great, there’s never a moment of weakness, never a moment of doubt, never of moment of conceding defeat and giving up. You are going to have to win a war.

You have to see those things. And you only see them when the player is put in the position where nothing else will get the job done.

Back to the original quote, but amended.

Michael is obviously better, not statistically, but all else being equal, imo he would dominate James, and I don’t think he’s the only great basketball player that would.

I mean, not to apologize for MJ but his dad was murdered. I think it’s ok he had a career crisis after that.

Butler is pretty special. For a guy that generally doesn’t shoot the 3 well, he’s pretty unstoppable most nights.

Miami’s main guys seem to show up just about every night no matter what defense you throw at them. And their role players are not only handling the pressure, they are rising to the occasion. Both that series and the Denver series are far from over, but the Miami run with Butler has been pretty magical.

Z–man: “Having watched and followed NBA basketball for as long or longer than anyone on this site, I think the person for which the best argument of GOAT in, let’s call it, his long prime, is Michael Jordan.”

I’ve got since 1978. Anyone have longer? (I’m assuming probably so, but maybe not many. 🙂 )

The thing is when Jordan left Chicago (his stint in Washington is pretty irrelevant to this debate) I don’t remember much hype of him being GOAT. He was in the conversation of top 3-5 but never clear cut GOAT. Only with the passage of time, perhaps because it took a good 20 years for someone to emerge who was potentially as good as him, has he been seen as the GOAT that only LeBron may topple.

Like Z-man I think there are arguments for each of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, MJ, and LeBron. All dominated their eras in their primes, with Wilt and Russell overlapping (Russell having won more and I just read an article that when Wilt retired, he held over 100 NBA records).

“Lakers were basically at the end of their run when MJ faced them. Portland, The Suns, The Sonics…all inferior teams. They were good but Bulls were favorites. Jazz were great too but still I think Bulls were the better team. Maybe that last year the Jazz were better but MJ never went to 7 games in the finals.”

But the only reason the Bulls were the favorites was because they had MJ. If you traded the best player from the other team for MJ, that team would have been the prohibitive favorite.

When the Heatles formed, LeBron did his “not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5…schtik…and didn’t deliver. His team lost to an inferior Dallas team. Then beat a flawed OKC team. They won thanks to a missed shot by LeBron that wound up in Ray Allen’s hands, and then got murdered by the Spurs the following year. Then quit on that team and left them high and dry to have a heroes welcome to another team he left high and dry. Then lost to a team with only one top-50 player. Then beat an all-time great team when Draymond got suspended and then Kyrie bailed him out after several LeBron misses in Game 7.

Obviously this is not to ignore all the times when LeBron stepped up big time to lead his team to wins, or his accomplishments in putting his teams in position to win, or to disparage his character (and MJ is an all-time great asshole, maybe the GAOAT). But there are blemishes that need to be considered.

People will really look at Lebron’s team beating the greatest regular season team of all time with his best teammate being an anti-semitic franchise killer and think it’s a demerit for Lebron because they are so bamboozled by the media’s Jordan hagiography

Ha, DRed. Nice one.

But yeah, you gotta also think if Draymond wasn’t so nut kicky and didn’t get suspended for that one game, it might have been over in 5.

I don’t think Dallas was an inferior team, though. Going into the series everyone said Miami was the better team cause they had the big three but that first season beyond the big three they weren’t that deep.

That Dallas team was DEEP. They only had one “superstar” but they had all-star or just below all-star level players at almost every position. Kidd, Chandler, Marion, Terry, Butler….hell they had dudes like Peja riding the bench. They were DEEP.

It’s the ultimate NBA rabbithole.

In terms of narrative, just as a counterpoint, I think the ring Lebron won in Cleveland is a bigger accomplishment than anything Jordan has to his name. The chase down block on Iggy is a pantheon level NBA moment. It should be up there with the push-off on Russell.

And I have always felt that getting the Cavs to the Finals in his second year is one of the greatest athletic feats ever. That team was total total garbage. Who was the second best player on that team? Anderson Varejao? Larry Hughes? Ilgauskas? Drew Gooden? Damon Jones?

The fact that team made a Finals is a remarkable testament to his talent, even if it wasn’t close to his best playoff run statistically.

I think Lebron has a chance to end his career on the same plane as Jordan if he wins this year.

I’m not sure LeBron is the best player in the Lakers/Nuggets series

“…with his best teammate being an anti-semitic franchise killer…”

…and without whom he’d have one less championship because (not surprisingly) he clanked shot after shot in a close out game only to be bailed out by a teammate…

“That Dallas team was DEEP. They only had one “superstar” but they had all-star or just below all-star level players at almost every position. Kidd, Chandler, Marion, Terry, Butler….hell they had dudes like Peja riding the bench. They were DEEP.”

Not really. Their best player was Tyson Chandler (or so it was said for years by some smart folks here at KB).

it’s tough to compare eras but there’s more to be said about jordan dominating his era … with the legacy defensive rules against quite possibly the largest collection of great defensive big men we may see in our lifetimes… i know various metrics try to capture this but to me the level of difficulty was much much higher… which led him to be taking the most difficult shots on the court… and somehow making those at an impossibly high rate…

lebron’s the better version of magic… that’s good for #2, 3 or 4… the question most people are actually considering when talking about this is who has had the best career…. and lebron probably has a better case due to consistency and longevity which jordan didn’t have…. and it’s going to be tough for anyone to top….

but if the question is who is the best player when taking some random moment in their career…. then it’s jordan…

There is an illusion that the first 3 Jordan championship teams were deep. In fact, they would barely be a playoff team without him, and surely at most second-round exit without him. In 1991, beyond Pippen and Grant, they had 33yo Bill Cartwright, then a massive dropoff to BJ Armstrong, John Paxton, Stacey King, Cliff Levinson, Will Purdue and Craig Hodges. In 1992 they added the great Scott Williams. In 1993 they added another all-time great, Stacy King.

One thing that gets underplayed in the Jordan vs. Lebron discussion is the other defensive changes that happened in the intervening years other than removing hand-checking. Specifically, the illegal defense rules changed, and allowed much more variation in who covers who and when, which allowed for never before seen defensive schemes like our very own Tom Thibodeau’s “overload the strong side” strategy, which was basically designed to stop elite iso scorers like Jordan with doubles. Lebron didn’t have to deal with hand checking (which I don’t think would’ve bothered him much, since he’s one of the most physically imposing athletes in any sport, ever), but he did have to deal with way more doubles and other defensive wrinkles that teams weren’t allowed to do with Jordan.

That said, if I had to pick one guy to win me a game 7, it would be Jordan. If you’re looking for the greatest peak in nba history, it’s probably Jordan. If you’re looking for excellence over 20+ years, it’s Lebron or Kareem. And if you’re looking for something in the middle, then Lebron probably is it, as he has an incredible set of 5-7 year runs in basketball. He also has the singular achievement of the 2009 playoffs run—which is the greatest individual performance over a playoff in basketball history, in my view.

Given how close the greats are, there really is no objective answer to “Who is the GOAT?” There are a variety of admissible candidates, but ultimately your answer says more about you than it does LeBron, Michael, or Kareem.

and yes.. with the way jokic is going he has a chance to get into this goat conversation also….

Jokic has 3 of the top 5 BPM seasons already and has 3 more years of his prime.

I think he will go down as “The Great Accumulator” or some nonsense like that. People will write him off as a stat padder unless he wins a bunch of titles in his 30s.

I’d very happy if he came to NY to try. Much closer to Sambor!

@dj,

I was thinking the same! The dude is just incredible.

I would add to the debate that there probably is a bit of pro-Jordan bias amongst Knick fans because we faced his teams 5 times in the playoffs and lost all 5. Sadly we never faced any LeBron team, in large part due to ineptitude by a Jordan arch-nemesis and a Jordan long-time coach.

I could never consider Jokic in the GOAT conversation because he is not a standout on defense. All of the other candidates were all-NBA level defenders and perennial DPoY candidates (Kareem would have been if there were such an award before 1982-83). The weakest of them (Kareem) was first or second team all-defense 11 times. And Jordan’s defense was probably as good as his offense…he was first team all-defense 9 times (LeBron 5 times, Kareem 5 times). Jordan is the only DPoY of the 3, with the caveat about Kareem. Jokic has not a single defensive accolade.

“I would add to the debate that there probably is a bit of pro-Jordan bias amongst Knick fans because we faced his teams 5 times in the playoffs and lost all 5. Sadly we never faced any LeBron team, in large part due to ineptitude by a Jordan arch-nemesis and a Jordan long-time coach.”

Not compltely true, we lost to the Heatles in the first round in 2012. But the point is fair.

He also has the singular achievement of the 2009 playoffs run—which is the greatest individual performance over a playoff in basketball history, in my view.

He’s not in quite in the GOAT conversation, but I think Shaq’s playoff runs in 2000 and 2001 are maybe the 2 best playoff runs ever. He average over 30 points and 15 boards for the entire playoffs both years. In 2001, The Lakers lost ONE playoff game in the Finals against the 76ers. JUST ONE GAME!!!!

All of the other candidates were all-NBA level defenders… the weakest of them (Kareem)

Z-Man: “I think you’re the greatest, but my dad says you don’t work hard enough on defense. And he says that lots of times, you don’t even run down court. And that you don’t really try… except during the playoffs.”

Kareem: “The hell I don’t! LISTEN, KID! I’ve been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I’m out there busting my buns every night! Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!”

Jokic isn’t a great defender, but even Jordan & LeBron would struggle to put up a 34-21-14 line on 82% TS in a conference finals.

Jokic led the league with a Mitch-esque .701 TS% this year on a 27% usage while finishing 0.2 assists away from averaging a triple-double.

Unfortunately Jokic is stuck with Aaron Gordon & Jamal Murray, while better than Mo Williams & Varejao, are closer to that side of the scale than the Wade/Bosh side.

The “I would pick Jordan if I had to win a game 7” thing all the Jordanphiles have been trained to say is pure media creation. Jordan unsurprisingly averaged 33 7-7 across the 3 game 7s he played in during his illustrious career. Lebron put up 35 10-6 in the 8 game 7s he played in. If you think one of those is clearly better than the other it’s just what they have taught you to say to sell sneakers.

But if you think the level of competition was higher in the 90s, the similarity in stats isn’t at all dispositive, no?

Fwiw, I make the “Jordan game 7” claim not based on statistics (which I grant are similar) but purely on vibes and eye test (Michael’s offensive game was certainly more diverse, whatever else.) I don’t think it’s obvious but it seems right to me, and I’ve never owned a pair of Jordans (though I do own a bunch of Clydes) 🙂

Sorry to interrupt the GOAT debate, but i think the 2nd link in the morning news list is a good read.
Knicks have options this offseason even without first-round pick in 2023 NBA Draft – Yahoo Sports

handchecking was the single biggest rule change that catapulted us into the modern era…. the whole reason why the league had to goto postups so often was because drives were so difficult… you could stop a drive by putting your hand on someone and yes lebron would’ve been impacted by this because guys like oakley and mason would put their big paws on you and literally push you off the spot you wanted to goto… you can be big fast and strong but you cannot just dribble anywhere you want when people can put their hand on you….

there was less space to operate in and it was filled with big dudes who wanted to hurt you.. this era is like a skipping through a field of flowers… and so jordan had to evolve to be able to hit those super difficult post up fades.. that is generally a terrible shot and nobody has been able to even approach the same level on that shot since….

that’s how great he was… he turned from vince carter and uber athletic over powering athlete… and he turned himself into a tactical surgeon… lebron never had those obstacles… in fact the environment got easier and easier…. the biggest obstacles he’s had were his own teammates and he moved around to take care of that problem….

there was less space to operate in and it was filled with big dudes who wanted to hurt you.. this era is like a skipping through a field of flowers

Which affects literally all of the numbers. Players are shorter now and further from the basket, so it’s easier to get the marginal, random rebound. The game is less iso and more ball-movement 3 now, so you can get an assist on a rudimentary pass to a player further from the basket just because he happens to hit the 3. Usage is higher for superstars now because there’s way more pick-and-roll and an open lane, everything else equal, is more inherently exploitable. Etc., etc.

Anyone who thinks 6-4 Russell Westbrook would have averaged a triple double in 1995 is delusional.

The game obviously has great ball handlers and passers that are as good as the ball handlers and passers of previous eras, same with rebounders — but the numbers are obtained differently now. They barely translate.

“Jordan was mentally soft” sounds like one of them Texas or Tennessee yokels insistently referring to it as the “Democrat Party.”

I blacked out during the reign of this Chicago guy (redacted) you speak of, so I have no opinion on that. But for this:

“I’d like to see The Heat and, more specifically, butler win one. If for no other reason then we can say we lost to the champs.”

I’m onboard. Go Jimmy!

Jokic winning a ring seems the most satisfying. Jimmy next, even though I hate the Heat. Then LeBron. Never the Celtics.

I am a bit surprised that DRed, normally a respectful chap, seems to be suggesting that KBers who think Jordan was better than LeBron are mindless devotees the cult of media-driven shoe-selling narrative. Why can’t we just give each other the benefit of the doubt without the unnecessary innuendo? It’s not like the media hasn’t pushed the LeBron GOAT brand…

As to the game 7 stuff, it’s pretty odd that one would bring this up, given that in Jordan’s 6 championship seasons they played in a grand total of 2 game 7’s, obviously both wins, and the second one only happened because in game 6 vs. Indiana the refs ignored a blatent push-off by Reggie to free himself for a game winning 3. That’s one legit 7-game series in 24 total rounds…and none in the finals. PS Jordan was 35 years old for the Indy one…and he scored 28 0f 88 points in an absolute late ’90s bloodbath. In the 1992 game 7 vs. the Knicks he scored 42 and the Bulls won by 29 points with zero drama. In the only game 7 a contending Jordan Bulls team lost (1990 vs. Pistons), Jordan scored 31 of his team’s 74 points and lost to the eventual champs with a much inferior team.

Suffice it to say, LeBron played more than double the game 7’s than MJ.

Without knowing for sure, I’d wager that Millennial has some residual soreness at Jordan for his “Republicans buy sneakers, too” remark.(*) Not everyone, after all, can be as “socially aware” as LeBron (How Dare You Tweet About Hong Kong Freedom; I’ve Got Important Business Interests In Beijing) James.

(*) I am aware of various commentary in those kind of circles regarding just how horribly *awful* this remark was. The degree to which that has in turn fed into Jordan’s basketball reputation — which is really all I give a shit about; I don’t look to athletes for really much of anything beyond that — is the open issue. Most likely, quite a bit.

“Players are shorter now”

By one inch on average, from a three-year period when it was 6’7″ in the mid-1980s, after which it has been consistently 6’6″ on average every year since 1990. It has gone down by percentage points within the 6-inch margin, but it’s still been 6’6″. So not so much, no.

well it seems my last email caught HR leadership’s attention…unfortunately though i’ve run out of strength to continue…

filled in my time card through the end of next week – that’ll be it…told them i’d open my work computer one last time next wednesday…

i still don’t think they’ll engage with me towards fair resolution…maybe like a 15 to 20% chance they’ll try to resolve this…

if by some chance they do, my ask will be 24 months salary (i make in the low $30’s per hour) and 24 months health coverage…that and i don’t pursue the issue further…

i’m not ambivalent about it – yet, but, if that doesn’t happen and i need to go through the legal system – it’ll be at least $300k (the valuation assigned to the severity and duration of my anxiety health issue will be interesting to see)…hmmmm, maybe charge them through age 67 instead…

plus they’ll now have some disability discrimination thing on their record…

i’ll win easily – everything about this situation screams: disabled employee injured by employer…employer forces employee to leave company…

plus, i know what’s in my medical records, once my medical history enters in to the situation it’ll be a wrap…

i’m lucky to be alive…even more fortunate to have been able to find and sustain employment despite my disabilities…that is until my employer injured me and then got rid of me…

ay dios mio…

anyways, got a week of peace before i deal with this shit again 😮

Hang in there geo, we need u!!!

yep – COME UP SCREAMING!!!

it’s interesting, something i’ve learned about anxiety/ptsd folks – many of them charge towards conflict…

the drive to constantly move forward is overwhelming…

probably not everyone, some though…

it did freak me out a bit when my therapist asked me yesterday if i might be heading to the office with a bazooka or something…

one thing i am very thankful for, despite my challenges – i am neither a danger to myself or others…

hey z-man, i got a question for you in a minute…

On a totally unrelated note, anyone here ever been to Ocho Rios? Specifically Mammee Bay? Or vacationed at a Sandals resort?

“hey z-man, i got a question for you in a minute…”

Now that you’ve confirmed that you’re not a danger to yourself or others, shoot….oops, I mean fire away….oops, I mean sure, what is it?

cyber,

so if I’m reading this correctly, we have the ability this summer to add up to 2 veterans to this roster with the mid level and the bi-annual (outside of vet minimum deals)? Or maybe even 3 if we split the mid-level?

Would we have to use some or all of the mid-level to keep Hart or is that separate since we have his bird rights?

Swifty, the mid-level is separate from having Hart’s Bird rights. We can pay Hart whatever we went (other than a max) and still have the mid-level and the bi-annual. So even if Hart was willing to take the amount of the mid-level — which he 100% will not — it would be a waste to slot him into that rather than saving it for another player.

@Swift: Yes, we have the MLE to use, up to 12.2M, and can be split into 2 or 3 players, if we choose that path. If i had to guess, i’d say we’ll try to grab a better player and will spend it all on one player, but it’ll probably be a matter of what opportunities arise. The bi-annual (4.5M) has to be spent this summer. And Josh Hart can be re-signed without using any exception, because of the bird rights. We can offer him whatever we want up to the max.

do you still track the days?

Alan, how are u feeling?

Geo, mostly yes because I still have stuff to do on certain days and bc I still live with my wife and son and other stuff like social events and, sadly, Knicks games. There are definitely some weekdays that feel like Saturday or Sunday, but just for a brief time.

The best feeling is waking up and choosing when to get out of bed and what to do or not do. Especially after overconsuming on a weekday or Sunday…

And not thinking incessantly about work…down time is really down time…haven’t had that since my honeymoon 30 years ago.

Hang in there, Geo, we’re all on your side! 😉

Caleb Martin is having himself a very fine playoffs. Performing way better than he did in the regular season. The Heat have managed to get a crazy amount of production from a very motley crew.

Jordan has kind of disappeared from the culture because he’s an unlikable asshole, and has no redeeming qualities other than his play on the court. He’s a small, petty and shallow man. The highlight reels are incredible, and he may very well have been the GOAT, in fact he probably was.

But it’s more than the “Republicans buy sneakers too” comment that has caused his legacy to dim a little bit. He’s not a horrible person, he just really lacks any kind of charisma and doesn’t have much to say.

Jordan is a surly, vindictive, petty narcissist. But that’s irrelevant to the GOAT discussion. Folks in the conversation for the GOATs in other sports generally are not super likable, with some Grade A a-holes in the mix.

thank you sir 🙂

Caleb Martin, Gabe Vincent, and Max Strus all are exceeding my expectations, they seem unphased by the moment, and unconcerned about their spotty pedigrees. Kudos to them, and to Coach Spo and Jimmy for building them up. And it seems that, like the Spurs of the aughts, the Heat know how to find these guys with special temperments late in the draft or even outside of it.

“Caleb Martin, Gabe Vincent, and Max Strus all are exceeding my expectations, they seem unphased by the moment, and unconcerned about their spotty pedigrees.”

Not to mention Duncan Robinson.

No one bit on my “have you been following basketball since earlier than 1978?” question from this morning. I seem to get ignored on this forum quite a bit, with most of my comments and questions going unacknowledged and unresponded to; not quite sure why. Am I posting in invisible ink? ……. insert shrug emoji.

Mainly, though, I’m rooting for the Western teams. I know there is rightfully a lot of Lakers disdain on here. But as someone tired of the old men who refuse to admit that LeBron might even have a case to be the GOAT, I wouldn’t mind him winning yet another ring that will force them to come up with new ridiculous arguments for why Michael is so obviously better.

I wanted Denver to win but after this outstanding post I am reconsidering.

It is amazing how mad some people get about this. Like, it’s a coin flip between those two, and there are some who act like it’s akin to saying Patrick Ewing is the best center of all time.

At the end of the day, though, for Strat and CDiggy, I’m pulling for Denver.

He did that all the time.

Imagine the Knicks in Game 6 against the Heat in the down two possession with a guy who you could give the ball to, clear out, and the Heat couldn’t stop him and he’d hit the shot. And then if there was another possession, he’d do it again. And then extend that concept out to basically every fourth quarter possession. That’s Jordan.

No metric can really measure that.

There is, actually. It’s called “shooting percentage”. And Michael Jordan did not, in fact, do that all the time. He failed to do it many, many times… even against our beloved Knicks.

Doogie – I don’t think 1978 gives you anywhere close to seniority here but who knows!!

Thanks for responding, Owen: 1) It makes me know that my “ink” is, in fact, not invisible, and 2) It makes me feel a little bit less old than I actually am (just turned 59).

Lebron just done it so much longer and without being so mentally soft that he had to quit in his prime.

+1000

I am always going to be Team LeBron but at least I know it’s for the totally biased reason that I could never appreciate Michael because he was constantly ripping my heart out and eating it right in front of me.

And Doogie, don’t take it personally if nobody bites. Heck, just yesterday I tried to get folks to argue about where Jokic stands in the pantheon (top 50? top 25? top 15?), and was met with crickets.

For the record, I have not been a Knicks fan since before 1978. FYI, that team had Spencer Haywood, Bob McAdoo, Michael Ray Richardson, and Ray Williams. I’m sort of glad I wasn’t a fan then…

I don’t think DRed is getting hired if the Charlotte GM job opens up.

I think it’s a little early on Jokic and Giannis. but I don’t see why they can’t both end top 15 at least.

@Geo: Hang tough, we’re with you!

DDB, i saw the question, and it’s not invisible ink, it happens to all of us, people are talking about one topic, or sometimes two or three, today is the GOAT list, and the comments out of topic sometimes are answered and sometimes are not, it all depends if there’s some comments on topic right after the off topic, if that’s the case it probably gets “invisible”. 😉 😛
I’m only 10 years younger than you, but i’m only a Knicks fan since 1991, because in europe it took me a little time to be aware of the NBA. And i was briefly a Blazers fan (one and a half season) before embracing this lovely/terrible 😀 franchise.

Jokic: Top 50 right now; potential for top 25 by the time his career ends.

Not to mention the imitable Sylvester (Sly) Williams and the Human Eraser Marvin Webster. I do remember Ray Williams (IIRC, he was the brother of Gus Williams’ of the SuperSonics—both being from Mt. Vernon, NY), but I don’t remember him being any kind of bad guy or having anything smarmy on his personal record like some of those other guys you mentioned.

@Downtown Doogie Brown

have you been following basketball since earlier than 1978?

Sorry for being late 🙂

If you mean NBA basketball my answer is “no”, my first year was 1979-80.

If you mean basketball in a broader sense my answer is “yes”,
with Munich Olympics 1972 as the trigger and then Italian League and Euroleague (then named Champions’ Cup) since the 1972-73 season.

I don’t think DRed is getting hired if the Charlotte GM job opens up.

I think i read somewhere that Jordan was selling the team and only keeping a minority stake. Maybe it was April 1st. LOL

Stayed with friends there, Z-man. What’s the question?

But it’s more than the “Republicans buy sneakers too” comment that has caused his legacy to dim a little bit. He’s not a horrible person, he just really lacks any kind of charisma and doesn’t have much to say.

Absolutely, and I’d actually say the conclusion that he isn’t a horrible person is charitable. A 58-ish year old man still acting the way he did in Last Dance is more than a little weird and his petty and vindictive vendetta against Isiah Thomas — of which he still hasn’t let go! — is kind of off the charts. He could be a horrible person.

I’ve never liked the guy, still don’t. Not that it really matters, but LeBron comes off as far more likeable.

Thinking of it for my 30th Anniversary. There’s a brand new Sandals called Sandals Dunn’s River, looks phenomenal but opens next week so there are no reviews yet

born in 64…watched my first knick game probably at age 5 or 6…other than clyde/pearl backcourt….that sugar ray and ray williams was my favorite…nothing since then has been close…and hubie brown was a great coach….so pump the brakes on hatin on that 78 squad mister raven…

GOAT: LeBron for me. He can just do more things/play more positions/make his teammates better over Jordan. Is there such a thing as saying that LeBron is the GOAT for overall (team) players (in a team game), and Jordan can have being the GOAT as an “individual” player?

And let’s not forget Jordan’s vendetta-induced Hall of Fame speech when considering his “good human” qualities. Doubt he’d have a model-quality wife if he weren’t……..well, you know…….Michael Jordan.

Jordan has most definitely not left the culture. I work at a middle school and all the kids know who Michael Jordan is, in fact his sneakers are still the most popular amongst the kids. They don’t know much about the older players who played during MJ’s era but they all know MJ, he’s the only older player that I see the kids watching his highlights on YouTube.

I loved Micheal Ray. They had to give him up for Bernard, who I also loved, but it would have been really cool to see both of them on the same team. A lot of potentially really good Knicks teams from like 1981 to 1987 got ruined by injuries and just general bullshit.

If you think Jordan was just an individual player you must not have watched his games or paid attention to his stats.

They now make golf shoes in the design of the original Air Jordans. Some high caliber tour players wear them. The Nike Jumpman logo is still plastered to a bunch of college hoop jerseys and even some football ones. Wide swaths of Gen Z find it to be the coolest logo of its type out there.

I don’t think Ray Williams was a bad guy (although who knows), but he was definitely an inveterate chucker. Also known as the Big Apple Turnover, and once averaged 4.7 a game for the season (even Julius has never been worse than 3.4!).

Jordan usually made the right play, which was more often than not just to score himself. And while he iso’ed a ton, the Bulls moved the ball as much as any team during that iso-oriented era, to the rhythm of Triangle Phil and the Zen Warriors.

Michael Ray was a helluva player with a chronic nose candy problem and other issues related to his judgment in the public relations realm. Definitely as talented as nearly anyone in his day.

Bernard singlehandedly beating the Pistons and then nearly singlehandedly beating the eventual champion Celtics in 1984 is probably my favorite non-championship run in pro sports history.

During that short time between when he got off the bottle and out of the clubs through when he blew out his knee, he was absurdly good. Like Simmons says in the Book of Basketball, if he’d come up maybe 10 years later when drugs and booze were way less prevalent in the game and knee surgery wasn’t relative hackery, he’d have been top 30 all-time, no question. Celtics had a long, tall front line — by deployment, players were taller then! — and he just embarrassed and beclowned them from start to finish.

Saw him up close in personal in DC in 1991. Playing basically on one leg — he favored the bad knee even years after the surgery; not that he was limping but he very rarely did one leg jumps off it — he was still an all-star. Probably 75% as explosive as he was in that Knick prime.

Z-man, I know nothing about the resorts, but it’s a beautiful part of the world, fairly empty when I was there a year ago, and there people are chill. Beaches and water are, well, sublime Caribbean beaches. And there are plenty of places to go for good food…nothing great, but good. If you’re looking to relax, it’s pretty much what you’d imagine.

— by deployment, players were taller then! —

That might be my favorite E line ever.

But yeah, Bernard was the bomb.

Sandals Dunn’s River – Let Life Flow

that looks wonderful…at some point here i’m going to be taveling, been giving more and more thought to perhaps an “all-inclusive” location…just go to one spot, slow down and relax…

yeah wow, i mean it is a “brochure”, so it’s supposed to look nice, but, yeah – that looks really nice…

They also just made a movie about Jordan… or at least his shoe, which might have more charm than he does.

I’ve been following since somewhere in the mid to late 2000s. You’ve got me beat by quite a bit.

It’s nice that the Mets took two of three from a quality opponent, but they really gotta shitcan the big fat guy with the .350 slugging percentage

Thanks rama, it seems really beautiful in the photos and Dunn’s Falls themselves looks awesome for a nearby excursion. I did an all-inclusive at a place called Excellence a few years ago and we loved it, so this seems like it could be perfect. One consideration all over the Caribbean is that there is a major seaweed issue (sargassum). Seems like the north side of Jamaica might be protected, but it’s pretty random.

“It’s nice that the Mets took two of three from a quality opponent, but they really gotta shitcan the big fat guy with the .350 slugging percentage”

That was a dumb signing, almost as dumb as having a major golf championship in Rochester NY in mid-May…they had a frost delay this AM.

The main thing that Jordan has over LeBron is that he was better looking, and that goes a long way in evaluating people’s legacy. Jordan did underwear ads and millions of people who’d never ever seen him touch a basketball before recognized his greatness. All the altruism and decency that LeBron can muster just can’t overcome the smooth head, the tongue, and the swagger. Sad, but true.

“yeah wow, i mean it is a “brochure”, so it’s supposed to look nice, but, yeah – that looks really nice…”

We are looking at is a SkyPool suite…your balcony is a private infinity pool overlooking the ocean…and butler service, whatever that means. Probably overdoing it, since who stays in their room much anyway? But whatever, you only have one 30th!

The thing about me and all-inclusives is that I invariably majorly overdo it on the first night…and skulking along on the way to breakfast the next day, a bunch of different folks walk up to my hungover self and are like “Hey Z-man, that was fun last night!” And I’d be like who the hell is this?

The other part of Jordan’s swag is his legendary performance in the early dunk contests. The slo-mo walking on air stuff…way ahead of its time. Sad that LeBron never showed what he could do…just not his thing, I guess.

Jordan is a surly, vindictive, petty narcissist. But that’s irrelevant to the GOAT discussion.

Is it? What does the word “greatest” mean? The reason there are endless arguments about this abstract notion is because it’s entirely subjective. There is no right or wrong answer – there are only opinions.

For me, LeBron has done more great things over the course of a longer career and has a better track record of making his teammates better.

But I’m also with Hubert:

I could never appreciate Michael because he was constantly ripping my heart out and eating it right in front of me

I am also perfectly willing to admit that I just like LeBron better – the aesthetic experience of watching him play, the personality – and was irrationally filled with intense MJ hate growing up as a 90s Knicks fan.

So for me, LeBron’s the GOAT. I’m biased. Maybe we should ask GPT4?

Doogie, My first Knick game at MSG was in 1964 when as Clyde has alluded to there used to be doubleheaders.
Nice series by Los Mets, hopefully, a catalyst for a turnaround.

Mr. Nateman,

My hats off to you. 1964 beats my Knicks fandom by quite a bit, as that was my birth year. I kind of doubt that anyone else on this forum would wear the crown over 59 years of Knicks-dom, but I could be wrong.

— Doogie

Bo’s got me re: Knicks fandom by a coupla years, I believe there’s one or two others…I was circa 1966 or so…

The Knick teams of the early ’60s were god awful: Art Heyman a Dukie from Oceanside LI who was supposed to be an impact player, Bob Boozer, Len Chappel, Johnny Egan,Tom Gola, and a cast of forgettables. No wonder they needed doubleheaders.

Art Heyman had a bar down somewhere by Union Square (I think) where I watched Michigan’s 2004 football opener. He actually came to talk to me and my two friends and introduced himself. (*) Probably in his early 60s then (and RIP), but hard to square that dude with a pro athlete, particularly in basketball (though he was pretty stocky and well-built). Then later I found out he went 1 overall in the draft and my mind was fully blown.

Listed at 6-5 — that’s generous from my recollection. I’m 6-3 and he didn’t have much if anything on me. But by all indications a great college player, so fine by me. Good time had by all.

(*) Purely accidental; we didn’t go there because it was Art Heyman’s bar. Not really sure how we wound up there.

Some of you guys are missing the point.

Stop looking at statistics to make the comparison. They both have incredible statistics and both could have averaged more, had more assists, and had more rebounds had they chosen to. The stats they accumulated were a function of the style of play at the time, pace, defenses, offensive system they played, coaching, teammates, best way for their own teams to in etc…

The difference between them is entirely mental and not even close.

They all miss.

They all lose games and series.

However, you can tell when a player misses because he’s tight by looking at his face while he’s on the line and paying attention to changed body language, follow through, leaning etc.. vs. when he just happened to miss.

You can tell when a guy passes because it’s the best play and when he passes because he doesn’t want the shot.

You can tell when a guy that’s behind starts feeling beaten, starts looking for an excuse, and starts giving up.

Jordan is perhaps the mentally strongest all time great athlete I have ever seen in any sport. He’s ahead of monsters like Ali and Nadal in terms of just the mental toughness component of being great. He never wavered, never “dogged” a free throw etc… He’s human. So he missed, made mistakes, lost series etc… but never gave in mentally or choked. I never saw it not even once.

Lebron has choked a LOT of free throws, gave in during a series, passed at times because he didn’t want the shot etc…

Lebron is one of the greatest players of any sport of all time. So of course he also does a lot of unbelievable things and wins championships. But all else being equal, if it came down to James vs. Jordan, by game 4 James would be looking for a graceful way out of the embarrassment. That’s how far apart they are mentally.

I’ve seen this argument before in plenty of statistical analysis about MJ and LeBron, by peak years MJ is pretty clearly the GOAT if you take their entire careers LeBron has had the greatest career of any player ever.

People sometimes forget how truly remarkable MJ was a player, his stats before he started winning titles is beyond insane. MJ’s argument as GOAT is not just 6 for 6 in NBA Finals with 6 MVPs, his overall stats are mind boggling. I mean he had a season where he averaged over 3 steals per game along with 1.5 blocks per game. The incredible part is those Bulls teams under Doug Collins when MJ was putting up insane stats they played at the slowest pace in the NBA. You look at MJ’s basketball reference page and it seems like it has to be a mistake cause no player could’ve been that good.

That’s not even including his playoffs stats which is what really sets him apart.

I’ve been a fan since the early ’70’s. I really fell in love with the Clyde and Pearl backcourt and that ’72-’73 season. Been hooked ever since.

I’ve mentioned I grew up in Queens but moved down to Miami when I was 10. From the day I was born my parents made me a Yankees fan. Neither of them cared a lick about basketball but it was my 2nd favorite sport to play. In the summer of 1989 we got cable and the MSG Network, I used to watch it for the monthly wrestling shows but when the NBA season started I was introduced to the Knicks and especially Patrick Ewing cause every commercial about the Knicks included him.

When they beat the Celtics in the playoffs that season they hooked me for life, even after moving down here that next summer I had committed to being a lifelong Knicks fan just as I was a Yankees fan. Safe to say that decision has worked out alot better with 1 team compared to the other lol

Jordan looked tough. You could see into his chest and see the dog. His heart-the one thing you can’t measure in sports-was just enormous.

Jordan had some statistically mind bogglingly good seasons. So did Lebron. There’s not a real difference between them statistically except that Lebron was really good much longer and didn’t mentally break and go play baseball in his prime.

For DRed, not doing what others wanted him to do = mentally breaking.

Even the 3 makes cross-era comparisons challenging. The ball actually goes through the basket less often now than in 1985, and less effectively if you measure by percentage, and if you count free throws, it goes through the basket way less. In 1985, the average team shot three 3’s per game and made 1.

If you went to an average NBA game in 1985, including free throws, you’d see the ball go through the basket 66.2 times. In 2023, that number is 60.4. With a much more homogenized shot chart.

The only way scores are even keeping pace now with then is because a 23 foot jump shot counts 3 points and everyone’s figured out the math. Honestly, I’m not even sure what the point is anymore and it wouldn’t bother me a bit if they just got rid of the 3. There’s probably nothing more boring in basketball than a guy missing a catch and shoot jump shot.

If there wasn’t a three point shot, the score of an average association game in 2023 would be 102-102. (And I’m sure there are years in the last 15 where that number would be even lower.) In 1985, it was 110-110.

“If there wasn’t a three point shot, the score of an average association game in 2023 would be 102-102. In 1985, it was 110-110.”

Thanks, interesting stat. I would think that without the 3-pt line, the shot profile in today’s game would obviously change, and it’s pretty likely that the guys who shoot 3’s at 40% would be shooting a higher percentage if they moved in a step. You’d also see more posting up, which I would like. The science of shot efficiency would just shift 3’s to another place. Maybe open 18 footers and hook shots would come back…

The thing where an athletic guard beats his man into the lane and passes up a 10 foot shot with some athleticism involved, in lieu of passing to a guy at the 3 point line for an unathletic catch and shoot jump shot — with a 60-65% miss ratio — has pretty much run its course with this fan.

It’s still a great game and this is braying at the moon, but still.

(And actually my numbers above understate it because that’s by team. In the 1985 game, you’d see the ball go through the basket 132.4 times, to 120.8 now.)

They play the game better now? Smarter?

I think Lebron has a tougher bar to clear than Jordan.

They play the game better now? Smarter?

They put the ball through the basket less, at a lower percentage of attempts. Hard to see how that’s playing the game “better.” If a 3 counted 7, would that be even better and smarter?

They’ve weeded out the Zach Edeys for the Danny Greens and traded athleticism and difficulty for catch and shoot. Better? Certainly different.

However, you can tell when a player misses because he’s tight by looking at his face while he’s on the line and paying attention to changed body language, follow through, leaning etc.. vs. when he just happened to miss.

Mere mortals like myself cannot do this, so I just judge on whether or not they miss.

Jordan is perhaps the mentally strongest all time great athlete I have ever seen in any sport.

He quit bc he was mentally exhausted. Twice. That’s the only reason he has that 6-for-6 record.

If you have ever done, like, anything, you know it’s usually much easier when you take a nice long break in the middle.

Which is why LeBron’s streak of 8 consecutive finals – with an Olympic Gold Medal in the middle of it – is a much more impressive athletic and mental achievement to me than Jordan’s two separate three year runs.

LeBron ran a marathon, finished it, and just kept on going.

Jordan ran 10 miles really fast. Took a taxi for the next 6.1. Then came back and ran another 10. Then stopped. He was greater than LeBron in those 20 miles but LeBron has run 40 already and is still going.

People have some nerve to compare these two without acknowledging this critical distinction.

Jordan explicitly said he was mentally exhausted and didn’t want to play anymore. Lebron went to the finals 8 years in a row. He led the NBA in playoff minutes played 7 times. You don’t think that takes mental (and physical) toughness?

Teams have more information now, and I think they probably play defense harder with bigger, faster and stronger men, but you can’t body people up like you used to and if you prefer the aesthetics of clear out and iso to kick out and shoot 3s that’s certainly not wrong.

I was a casual Knicks fan from about 2002 onward—wasn’t very into sports when I was younger (born in ‘92.) I started really getting into them pre-Stat signing and was basically a lifelong fan by the time of the Melo trade, exchanging football for basketball as my favorite sport to watch.

Never played though (played lacrosse as my sport growing up), until last year, and now I’m getting pretty good since it’s my new obsession 🙂

Lebron’s dad wasn’t murdered at the middle of his career. MJ’s dad didn’t die. His dad was murdered.

Lebron has… passed at times because he didn’t want the shot

One of the greatest things LeBron has accomplished is to unravel the toxic masculinity in basketball that Jordan left behind.

From Kobe to Penny to Harold Miner… we had to suffer a whole generation of MJ wannabes who couldn’t ever be. The era of basketball between MJ and LeBron is the ugliest in NBA history, and a lot of that is because of the style MJ championed.

LeBron brought back what Magic and Bird had before him. He’s basically the Luke Skywalker of Beautiful Basketball, redeeming the sport after Darth Jordan turned to the dark side, channeled his rage and sociopathy, and unleashed ISO BALL.

Now everyone wants to be like LeBron. Melo was probably the last great MJ wannabe.

If Melo cared about winning half as much as Jordan, we’d have won a title. But the iso-ball style is spot on.

to me…related to what Hubert said above…is that both of these guys made the other guys on the team believe and play better than they were, i.e,. would bill wennington or anderson verajo ever start on a championship team?….it’s like their so good it just boosts all the other mediocre guys (see austin reaves/bj armstrong)…butler is kind of doing it now and living here in the bay area for 14 yrs starting in the yr curry was drafted…i see it with him…like…without curry that team would be shit ….they think they can’t lose because he’s there…
and i didn’t appreciate lebron as much as I do know…he like …orchestrates the whole show…knows exactly what he wants to do..needs to do…in order to win the game and sometimes that means making sure everyone gets theirs……i used to think Jordan was GOAT no contest…now…after last few years…its pretty close and not sure who it is..

LeBron used to get humiliated for passing the ball in close games. Mike K even sold a t-shirt on here that had a picture of his face with the words Beta Dog underneath (I bought one).

The mental strength it took to ignore all that bullshit and keep passing is underappreciated. But he stuck with it, and eventually the whole NBA community turned around, and before long it was the ball hogs like Melo who were getting shamed.

It would be amazing to see the Jordan Bulls matching up against the Dubs with prime Curry, Durant and Thompson.

I think the Warriors would have wiped the floor with them. Shooting threes is just a much more effecient way to score points.

You are seriously underestimating how good defensively the Bulls were if you think Golden St would just launch 3s at will against all the wing defenders the Bulls could throw at them.

A conversation for the off-season.

Miami Hear fans are apparently Zapruderinf this clip as a way to show the refs are tilted towards the Celts.

I would love to be driven that crazy by a deep unelected playoff run

https://thespun.com/nba/video-nba-referee-has-suspicious-reaction-to-heat-making-shot

I don’t really have an opinion on MJ vs Lebron. I’d lean MJ but I grew up hearing the legend of MJ even though I wasn’t actively watching games until later, so yeah, there could definitely be some media indoctrination there.

What do people think about playoff Butler as having that same MJ mentality? His game is different but the dude just wins,as he’s shown this postseason regardless of the halftime score.

Shooting threes is just a much more effecient way to score points.

Except it really isn’t, as the ’85 versus ’23 numbers I posted show. Add in the missed shots and the offensive rebounds and free throws eschewed and it’s essentially a wash.

Bulls had a higher ORat — 115.2 to 114.5.

Bulls had a way higher net rating — 13.4 to 10.7. G-State didn’t even lead the association in net rating in their 73-9 year — the Spurs did.

Pace is controlled by the slower team.

Jordan and Pippen are both ultra-elite defensive wings that would suppress the Warriors’ wing strength.

Bulls would win.

MJ’s 3pt history is really odd. He hardly took any 3pters at all until the 89-90 season when he suddenly took 3 per game at 37% which was quite alot for that time. But then he stopped taking 3pters again until the 1992 NBA Finals. In the 92-93 season he went back to taking 3 per game at 35%.

When he returned from his baseball hiatus he took advantage of the shorter 3pt line and continued taking a decent amount, even shot 43% during the 95-96 season. But when they moved the 3pt line back to the regular distance he stopped shooting them again.

became a yanks fan in ’75 (go WPIX, channel 11 🙂 )…a giants fan around ’80…

didn’t start following the knicks until like ’84/’85 – it was bernard king who caught my attention…was away at school and couldn’t really watch any games, but, started following the knicks through the new york times…

E – another day

Love Bruce Brown’s energy.

Fascinating LeBron vs. Mike discussion.

It kind of sounds like if you want to win a battle, you choose Mike. If you want to win a war, you choose LeBron.

Not a GOAT argument, and not that either one isn’t a really good choice for a battle vs. a war. Just that they’re somewhat apples and oranges.

I don’t care what you’re trying to win, I’d choose Michael Jordan in any scenario.

Russell caught Murray on the face. I think that’s why it was a flagrant. Steve Jacks agrees. Mark Jackson does not.

That makes it easy

Sharpen your letter-writing pencils.

The Los Angeles Dodgers are facing criticism ahead of their upcoming LGBTQ+ Pride Night for the team’s decision to disinvite a group from what is scheduled to be their 10th annual celebration of diversity and inclusion on June 16 at Dodger Stadium.

The club announced Wednesday that it would no longer honor the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence with its Community Hero Award in a pregame ceremony that evening, effectively disinviting the charity, protest and street performance organization that employs humor and religious imagery to call attention to sexual intolerance.

The decision came about after heavy pressure from conservative Catholic organizations, including the Catholic League and CatholicVote, and after Senator Marco Rubio, Republican of Florida, wrote a letter to Major League Baseball Commissioner Rob Manfred questioning whether the inclusion of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence would be “inclusive and welcoming to Christians.”

The unstoppable Rui Hachimura is now 13/16 in the series

Edit: And counting

Lebron is looking quite frisky.

And I don’t know why anyone other than Jokic is allowed to shoot

At the end of the day, there is no objective answer and it’s a matter of personal preference as to who is the GOAT. Mike Breen just pointed out that Kareem was in the conference finals in 14 of his 20 seasons. He was a 6-time MVP, and his numbers from age 22-32 were utterly mind-blowing. He averaged well into double digit rebound and well over 3 blocks once they started counting them for like a decade straight.

Jokic is like Jason Kidd rebounding and running the break

They frustrate the shit out of me at times but the Yankees are still pretty damn good.

I also don’t have a dog in the GoAT race, as I rooted against all three of them pretty much every game they ever played. But Kareem is a national treasure outside of his basketball work, and the others are not. I’ve grown to truly love him.

I’d say 1-3 is clearly Jordan, Kareem, and LeBron in no particular order.

4-10 is Russell, Wilt, Bird, Curry, Magic, Duncan, and Bryant also in no particular order.

“4-10 is Russell, Wilt, Bird, Curry, Magic, Duncan, and Bryant also in no particular order.”

I hate to say it but somehow Kevin Durant has to be in the top 10 convo. He’s made some dumb career choices but no one is really superior to him as a package of height and skill.

You are seriously underestimating how good defensively the Bulls were if you think Golden St would just launch 3s at will against all the wing defenders the Bulls could throw at them.

Golden State never met a defender they couldn’t shoot over. Nobody can defend out to 30 feet without leaving the middle open. It defies physics and geometry, and I don’t think Ron Harper and Scottie Pippen are exceptions to Newtonian and Pythagorean rule.

I don’t think Kobe belongs in the top-10. He truly gets all the media hype as the GOAT without deserving it. Extremely good player for a very long time, but not on that list for me.

I hate to say it but somehow Kevin Durant has to be in the top 10 convo.

I think you are probably right. We can call it 4-11. (or, maybe 4-9 and then Bryant and Durant vying for top 10?)

I know Kobe is unpopular among analytical folks, but his individual accolades and statistical blights aside, the two titles he won without Shaq I think puts him above guys like Robertson, West, Garnett, Barkley, Hakeem, Dirk, or anybody else you may want to put into that top 11 tier.

Maybe Rui Hachimura is an even better deadline acquisition than Josh Hart?

Kobe is penalized for not being all that efficient, but he was a GOAT-level positional defender. Regardless of the fact that he emulated Jordan more than anyone else, he actually did that extremely well, and imo deserves top 10 consideration.

The guy I might consider dropping is Duncan.

Give me Jimmy over Kobe 🙂

I don’t know, Kobe was great, but top ten is too high.

And I dont think a Gasol, Bynum and Odom compares unfavorably to a lot of title teams.

It’s amazing what Jokic is getting out of these guys. Aaron Gordon was never good.

I mean, if you had to win a championship woult you want to have peak Shaq or Peak Duncan? I’d pick peak Shaq but wouldn’t be upset if I had to settle for peak Duncan.

This seems like a very compelling series…

LeFlop strikes again…

It’s a great question. I take Duncan so I don’t have to watch the free throws.

And peak Hakeem is no slouch.

I hope in the next life we are all in our permaprimes and get to answer these questions!

Good little game going in denver

It’s not that Kobe is so far off the top-10, but his peak wasn’t nearly as high as other players.

Shaq himself had a better peak.

Dwyane Wade carried a much worse Shaq and a bunch of junk to a title.

Dr. J, Giannis, Oscar Robertson, Stockton, Malone, etc.

I’m not going to come up with all the names, but Kobe always had a ton of help to win those championships.

Kobe should absolutely get credit for how long he played at that level, but I think the peak was too low.

Wonder if the altitude is getting to LA or if Denver is just finally making some shots

That was quite an offensive explosion after the way they struggled this game

Geez, that was quick.

The altitude shouldn’t be as much of a thing in the playoffs because they’re up there for a couple days to adjust at least.

Lakers could really use Just A Grimes

Kobe was a really good, really durable player for a really long time. He’s a no doubt hall of famer, but he’s nowhere near being a top 10 nba player of all time. MJ & Lebron probably each have 10 seasons better than anything kobe ever did.

Kobe’s career high in BPM was 7.7. Lebron’s career average BPM is 8.8

Lakers have done a really impressive job sticking around these games when Denver has hit them with some haymakers

I think Reeves is better than Just a Grimes

“Kobe’s career high in BPM was 7.7. Lebron’s career average BPM is 8.8”

No one is comparing Kobe to MJ or LeBron, the question is whether he’s top 10…did you do the calculation for the other candidates?

Can the Lakers afford to extend Austin Reaves a very funny subplot to the offseason

No way MJ misses that layup

Reaves is better but Schroder can’t shoot and DLo can’t defend. With Reaves and Lebron you don’t need a PG.

Don’t know if Murray finally got healthy or something but he’s been amazing this playoffs

The Nuggets are good…

Great game

Kind of a mediocre game from Joker by his absurd standards, the Lakers really needed to win this one. AD 4-15 against this team isn’t going to cut it.

he’s nowhere near being a top 10 nba player of all time. MJ & Lebron probably each have 10 seasons better than anything kobe ever did.

Yeah, that’s why he’s not in the top 3, or anywhere near it. 10 is a long way from 3. But at the same time you can’t really put Dwyane Wade, Dr. J, Giannis, Stockton, Malone, etc. ahead of him on an all time chart based on their respective career accomplishments. The names are, debatably, Shaq and West, maybe Olajuwon, and I’m not even sure who else. (And if you want to make the bizarre case that Stockton belongs in the top 10 all time, you gotta, you know, actually make it).

The Lakers are so spoiled that they get the redux of Lansanity and don’t even acknowledge it as a fan base.

Stockton had 5 straight years of a higher BPM than Kobe ever had. He played till 40 and beat Kobe’s career BPM by 2.2.

In fact Stockton’s career BPM is higher than all but 2 of Kobe’s single season BPMs.

He’s the all-time leader in steals and assists.

I’m fine with people saying Kobe is better than Stockton, but when it comes down to the numbers Kobe doesn’t come close and Stockton is a good example of it.

Maybe they come out with a new stat in the future that puts Kobe ahead, but with the information I have (note, I didn’t watch Stockton so I can’t judge that) Kobe doesn’t measure up.

If the point of the game was to amass VORP and BPM, sure. But greatness is measured by performance on the big stage, when people are paying attention. Not on long winter nights in Utah when even the local papers don’t print the box score because the game ends too late.

He did hit one but AD taking threes late in games a la PJ Tucker, don’t know if I am on board.

I am pretty sure Lebron was regretting missing that first half layup after he missed the fourth quarter one

Little late (or early) to chime in on a couple of things:

Reply to Doogie:
Bo and Z-man have me beat. Became a Knick fan right after they won in 1970. My father installed a hoop in our driveway that Summer and the rest is history. Never saw them play before that but I am pretty sure I saw every game on channel 9 for at least 3 years after that.

Luka and the LeBron/MJ debate:
Really liked the various takes in the thread. One constant theme is that what you do in the play-offs is the key criterion, and might be pretty close to the only one. And this year we are seeing a bunch of play-off heroics (and duds, looking at you James and Joel) that are defining some HoF legacies. If I am Luka, I ought to be pretty upset that Cuban took away a play-off run in my prime so he could chase the unlikely odds of a top draft pick. I am so glad Dallas did not move up.

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