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92 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.03.10)”
Well, that game was a bummer, but not a calamity. We made it close even though we couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. Brunson’s injury is the only thing that genuinely worries me.
Meanwhile, I don’t think I saw this Mike Scotto/Ian Begley podcast (or its transcripted highlights) discussed yesterday: https://hoopshype.com/lists/knicks-rumors-josh-hart-rj-barrett-derrick-rose-immanuel-quickley-tom-thibodeau/
Among other bullet points:
* Hart expected to decline his player option and sign a 3-4 year new deal with us.
* Scotto assumes Knicks will shop RJ in the summer as part of a star trade package; Begley talks about Leon wanting to get proper value in trades.
* Begley thinks team will have to offer IQ a “significant” contract to get him to sign an extension this summer, and both note how many teams must be kicking themselves for not giving Leon a single 1st for IQ back in the fall
* Begley guesses we’ll move Obi in the summer, either as a piece of a star trade package, or just to do the guy a solid and get him to a better situation. (i.e., as part of Leon’s whole philosophy of showing the rest of the league that he does right by his players whenever possible)
* Both expect Fournier to be traded in the offseason, since he’s a known quantity who will now be on an expiring (albeit not cheap) deal.
Last year I dreamed about a Randle + 1st for Sabonis trade with Indiana. I’d still do it in a second (I dreamed about a Randle + 1st for Fox swap too, it was before signing Brunson).
Those are two very good players and they’re both lefty so I love them… š
Back to the game, a game that consumed my entire monthly amount of deities related profanities…
Thoughts:
– I’ll start with the good things. That we were in this game until the end despite a putrid overall performance is a testament to the team spirit.
– Glue and the Hart Foundation shined but it’s hard to win when your main cast shoot like shit.
– JB’s injury’s worse than we thought and that can be a huge problem.
– IQ must still be in Boston, He’s MIA in the last two games, both on offense (6-27 FG 4-18 3FG) and defense.
– Bad Julius is rearing his head again. His first half defense today was unacceptable, a mix between a turnstile and a lamp post.
– RJ pumped his stats at the end with not one but two layups when we needed a three. Was that a coach directive? Or is he just dumb and selfish? Anyway he played better than IQ and Randle…
– 11 Missed FTs in a somehow close game (64.5% FT%). They must be ashamed. And where’s the coaching staff when your players don’t give a fuck about free throws?
Grades
Brunson A-
Hard to defend when you’re hobbling, hope is nothing really serious but IƬm scared
Randle C-
He used to be pumped for his meeting with Sabonis, tonight he lost it to Harrison Barnes and Trey Lyle.
Barrett C
The best of the worst.
Robinson C
Schooled by Sabonis all night long.
Grimes A-
Forced to be more than the glue guy, he did well
Quickley D
Horrible.
Hart A
Great game, alas the last turnover was the last nail in the coffin.
Hartenstein B+
Never perfect but you can’t question his effort.
Toppin C
I can’t stand Corner Obi, I simply can’t.
Deuce B
+8 in 7 minutes with 3 assists and 2 rebounds
Thibs B
His best players are injured or in a slump, still the team fight until the end.
āToppin C
I canāt stand Corner Obi, I simply canāt.ā
I agree, but in the half court offense heās pretty much useless doing anything else. His attempted forays to the basket almost always amount to nothing
And we used to love Obi in transition and heās not even doing much of that anymore.
Itās so damn discouraging; heās really not a rotation player at this point.
@Alan
All of Scotto/Begley’s takes make sense.
RJ, Obi and Evan must be on the trading block, with some of our 1Sts, while re-signing IQ and J-Hart is a clear priority*.
* This could be the last season in which you can re-sign your own players for a max 20% increase, unless NBA and NBPA agree to a deal to anticipate the new tresholds.
Re-signing them with the current rules can be very team friendly in a couple of years…
I agree, but we didn’t feel this way at the end of last year (yes, different opponents, different meaning of games but still) when he looked like a player that can do both, shoot 3s and attack the basket.
Now he looks like he’s the first one to not know who he is anymore.
Probably he’ll never be good enough on defense (and mentally focused) for a Thibs coached team, trading him is the best thing to do for both parties.
P.S.
And this only exacerbates their draft night mistake…
not very happy about Brunson’s re-injury…. Thibs has had a habit of leaving very clearly injured players on the floor… even when they are literally on the floor….. this happened with Brunson the other night… and he wound up being fine but no doubt suffered the same injury or a compensating one when he couldn’t play the next game…
this happened with fizdale also and i just dont’ understand the mentality.. there’s no short term gain either since you’re essentially playing 4v5 and you’re putting your players in danger… and now we’re very close to playoff time and this could possibly be a lingering injury….
this is inexcusable… gotta do better here…
1. Live by the 3, die by the 3. Randle and RJ are not good 3 point shooters. So this kind of volatility is going to happen to the downside more than weād like. We know what we need. We need a replacement at SF that can defend, shoot 3s, and add a little more.
2. Iāve been telling you guys for over a year that Obi is very limited and eventually defenses are going to take away most of the transition points and cuts. Thatās where we are. The scouting has caught up to him. Now itās on him to add and get better.
I donāt see why we have to trade him though. Heās going to be the same backup on any other good team that he is here. Iād rather see him keep working on his game and be our backup unless we found an upgrade. Then weāll have beat writers that want to trade him? lol. If heās part of some big deal, that makes sense, but to just trade him is nonsensical. Heās not going to start unless we trade him to some scrub team. I doubt thatās what he wants. He seems to love NY. So if he wants to play some, get in the gym and force Thibs to play him because heās good.
I agree Strat, nearly every team in the NBA has a much better starter option at PF/big wing than Obi. Maybe he’d get 18 minutes instead of 12?
Thibs, with his history, is a total idiot with this blindspot. The result creates rage after weeks/months of joy.
Looking at it another way, imagine we were playing a team that had Obi Toppin as their starting PF…can’t imagine we’d be all that worried.
My understanding is that it is up to the medical staff to clear a player…and once that player is cleared, the coach should feel confident in utilizing that player. Thibs himself has said “it’s up to the medical staff” regarding recent injuries to Obi and RJ.
Re: Obi
He’s a terrible defender, bad rebounder, unreliable three point shooter, easy to shut out in the halfcourt, with average BB-IQ at best.
The reason to trade him is simple: why waste a rotation spot on a player with so much weaknesses?
It’s not even a “can he start/no he cannot” debate, now it’s “is he an NBA player/no he’s not”.
It shouldn’t be too difficult to find a better bench option able to play 12 minutes a game of defense, hustle and rebounds, or a real floor-spacing shooting “4” (we just got destroyed by Trey Lyles and it’s not the first time)…
Let your (huge) draft night mistake become someone else problem…
P.S.
I’ll be very happy if he’ll score 30 from now on… š
“I donāt see why we have to trade him though. Heās going to be the same backup on any other good team that he is here. Iād rather see him keep working on his game and be our backup unless we found an upgrade. Then weāll have beat writers that want to trade him?”
If we have two draft picks, I would use one for a back up PF. Someone who maybe doesn’t have the offensive ceiling Obi has but who has a higher defensive floor and could play that back up role to Randle right away.
Then trade RJ, Obi, Fournier and picks for OG or (god willing) Mikal.
We need to upgrade the SF position and get a real shooter and defender in there. God, Mikal would be perfect for this team and he might be that not an all star but he really is as good as an all star type player that would fit in perfectly for us. Randle, Brunson and Mikal would be the peak trio of players who are all star caliber players but aren’t quite considered that by the casual fans for some dumb reason. OG fits that as well.
Trey Lyles is an interesting comp for Obi. Plays about 16 minutes a game, makes his 3ās, doesnāt hurt you on defense.
If Obi could become 70% of the player Lyles is heād be useful.
d-mar, I’m going to fight you on this (luckily just over the interweb). I’ve seen Obi make a few very functional forays into the paint with the ball this year. He can do that — he’s just not in a system that allows for it, and for some reason he’s not RJ who will do it regardless of any logic to the doing of it.
I think we’ll be (un)pleasantly surprised by how good he can be in a different system once he’s traded. I do, however, suspect that he might always be something of a negative on defense. Perhaps less important elsewhere, but that’ll likely limit him regardless.
Missed this one, and the opportunity to see how the player i wanted in 2017 is doing. Reading the game thread i started to believe we were going to win but in the end we came up short. I only watched the 1st quarter against Charlotte so it seems that the team can’t win if i’m not watching, the good news is that the Clippers game will be a matinee so i’m going to watch it and we’ll win again. š
Thank you, Cyber.
IQ at least mostly played good defense, although Fox gave him more trouble than Grimes.
Grimes has a shot creation issue. Watching him kind of makes you realize what a special talent some guys have. When Grimes drives to the basket there often just isn’t anything there, unless its off a pump fake. Even when he can turn the corner on his defender he never seems to have enough space to get a good shot off. Part of it is that he doesn’t seem to have developed a floater or any facility with a high bank. It’s beyond my ability to diagnose, will leave it to the major eye-test people, but there were a bunch of possessions in the 4th where he dribbled around aimlessly without finding a seam and then handed it to Randle with 5 seconds left on the clock.
I don’t blame RJ for the quick twos that much. I may have been tired but I think he was able to chip the margin enough to make fouling work. Overall, he wasn’t great though. He got his shot blocked a bunch and he doesn’t shoot or defend well. Watching Fox, who was impressive, move around the court at basically lightspeed, it just accentuates the athleticism gap.
Both Harts put in really gutty performances. They are both good for a really bonehead move every game but I love them.
Mitch looked gimpy at the end. I hope he doesn’t miss more time.
It’s just hard to watch Randle at the end of games. I think we understand at this point that you have to set him up for success. And giving him the ball the way we did late is just not that.
Re Lyles, interesting watching him and thinking about where Bagley went in the draft.
I’m with Raven on Obi, i think he’s probably better than what he has been showing lately. This “just stand in the corner” is not a very good use of him. He used to cut to the basket to catch the defense unaware, leading to some (beautiful) dunks, and even that is out of the menu nowadays. I want to trade him in the summer for the sake of Obi. And like Max said a more defensive backup for Randle is probably the way to go, because that gives more lineup flexibility for Thibs.
grimes can only go one speed so far. he attacks close outs full speed every time, but doesn’t have any of the other gears. he also hasn’t figured out how to use his body to finish or protect a hostage dribble. part of this is just that’s he’s not much of a cudgel but part is lack of facility.
I’m with you on Mikal, Swift, he’d be perfect for us. I think i don’t need a star, if we can get a player like Mikal.
One question for the board, is there more players like OG and Mikal, that are good, a fit with us, and are maybe available?
New words for today: cudgel. Thanks, Milo. š
pt I agree that Grimes’ speed sometimes works against him. Rather than pull up for an open 12 footer, he drives into the defense and gets caught in the air. Sometimes he makes the pass, sometimes he turns it over.
BTW Malik Monk is an excellent example of a guy who needed time to become a solid NBA benh player. Grimes is certainly ahead of that trajectory.
I was checking the same word š Thanks Ptmilo!
I really don’t get the excuse-making for Obi. The thought that somehow he’s being held back does not pass the smell test. He’s just not very good on either end right now, and it’s about him, not the system. Nice kid, though, and I hope he develops into something more than an occasional stretch 4. Not optimistic, though.
Players like Mikal and OG are rare. I would go after OG hard because I don’t think there is a snowball’s chance in hell that the Net’s trade with us. If Chicago blows it up, I would love to add DeRozan. I think any deal has to include RJ going out to work. If not, I think we’ll just roll with RJ and hopefully reduce his minutes.
With Grimes, because his defense is good, I am willing to wait. And I don’t think he will cost very much despite being a useful player. But the limitations are pretty noticeable. He at least hit two threes in the second half from zones where he has been stone cold.
Overall, on the road, suffering from horrible shooting, it’s a good loss. They didn’t quit and had a solid chance to win the game.
I’m starting to agree with Z-man and Strat on Obi. He may still not be 100% physically, but even when healthy he is very limited on both sides of the ball.
Oh, true, but the critique is that when Brunson gets hurt in the game, you gotta adjust.
The biggest problem with RJ is that, optimistically, he’s 3-5yrs away from being useful while the Knicks are ready to win now. He’s on the wrong timeline if he’s on any timeline at all.
Yesterday i forgot to search the DARKO spreadsheet that Silky sent, for RJ’s salary valuation. Well, DARKO puts RJ at 5.9M and this season we pay him 10.9M, meaning it’s a 5M overpay. Now imagine next season, when he’ll make 23.9M !!! š¬
the problem with limited players like Grimes is that it’s very hard to expand your game later.. if you couldn’t do it when you’re older than the competition in college… it’s like trying to learn an entirely different skillset later in life… for Grimes it’s dribble penetration… it’s part of the reason why he fell flat in Kansas… then had to rebuild his game entirely around his jump shot… most of his 2pt attempts were just long midrange jumpshots too… he just has persistent issues creating space with his dribble..
he’s made progress in that regard.. he’s attacking closeouts much better but he still shoots an incredible amount of 3s and that’s not a great sign of a guy with massive potential… so you kind of have to live with the question of whether or not he can hit 3s because his entire reason to stay on the floor relies on that….
I’d like to see Grimes in an offense that gives shooters the green light and isn’t Thibs’s iso and stand in the corner offense
There have definitely been players that were better suited for a specific type of offense. Is Obi one of them? I dunno. I see a lot of Kenny Walker/Kevin Knox in him….too soft for a PF, to slow for a wing…can only score on straight-line drives in space and wide-open jumpers, can’t stay in front of any player with counter-moves, always getting beat on angles…frankly (npi), I don’t see him consistently thriving in any kind of offense. Maybe he’s better than those two guys, and is somehow being limited by our schemes, but that’s kinda where I’m at right now.
We understandably need reminders of it from time to time, but shot creation at the NBA level is a very rare skill.
Maybe a sticky on the Knickerblogger rafters as a reminder?
I’m much higher on Grimes. He’s already a plus (but not elite) defender, and I see ways for him to expand his offensive game. Just learning to pull up for easy shots in the 12-15 foot range when he has space, those shots should be 55-60% if he focuses on it. I don’t think he has to go full Demar DeRozan, but there are certain shots that should be money for him when he blows by hard close-outs.
Well, this feels a lot more comfortable and familiar. I didn’t know what to do with myself after the Boston win.
-Brunson aggravating what could well turn into a chronic foot injury that slows him down long-term and that our org lacks the patience/discipline to load-manage
-Randle’s immediate and full reversion to Bad Randle
-Mitch likely injured again for another month, shades of Anthony Davis
-Quickley falling off an absolute cliff since Boston, as though he’s bet big money against himself to win 6MOY
I’m back to expecting a first-round gentleman’s sweep, snug as a bug in a rug.
I have a bad feeling about Brunson’s foot issue…if he is out for a few weeks..play in game(s) might be in our future…
Yes, losing Brunson would definitely be a huge problem.
FUUUUCCCCKKKKK.
We rode too high to the sun too soon.
Why are you all so down? Is there any news on Brunson that i don’t know yet?
Meanwhile, the Warriors keep making history… š¤
The 2020 draft is shaping up into one of the worst in recent memory (with respect to Hali, Bane and Quickley), so it’s not like they missed out on anything special in the picks immediately following Wiseman, but man, the Dubs really fucked that offseason up.
Couldn’t catch the game last night, which usually bugs me a lot but sounds like I just spared myself a lot of frustration this time. The outcome is fine–we lost a close game to a good team on the road. It goes without saying that we can call it a season if Brunson’s injury is serious, though.
I’ve given Thibs a lot of flowers this season and I completely agree with djphan that the Brunson situation feels like something that wouldn’t have happened with another coach. You really can’t mess around with foot injuries and it sure seems like we brought him back at less than 100%.
Re: Obi, I think there is evidence from literally last year that there’s a better player than this in there. I don’t buy that all of his transition points have been scouted away and that’s why he’s bad now–last year his transition frequency was just 19.3% for a grand total of 93 total attempts. You could literally just take away all those attempts and his numbers from last year would still be much better than they are this year.
I don’t know why he’s reduced his rim attempts from 58% to 33%, which is just a totally unacceptable number. In fact, it’s such a ridiculously low number that I also don’t totally buy the explanation that this is the role Thibs wants him to play. It doesn’t take a basketball genius to realize this is not Steve Novak. In other words, Obi himself absolutely has culpability here too.
I buy that he’s being told to do some suboptimal stuff, but at a certain point it’s on the player to force the issue. If he is truly being told to do almost nothing but stand in the corner I would advise him to be insubordinate–it’s not like he’d lose out on any future earnings by being benched at this point anyway.
Is there some horrible thing confirmed re: Brunson’s injury?
I can’t find any hard news, I was just assuming the worst because we’re us.
It’s confirmed horrible to be a Knicks fan. No news on Brunson.
lmao Early Bird, no confirmation was needed on that front
We’re not there yet in terms of confirmation, but there’s all manner of reason to wonder whether compensating for the right ankle injury wound up hurting the left foot.
If that’s the case, full-out ripping of the coach is very much in order. (“If” still being the operative word.) We typically like to see plain vanilla right ankle sprains managed in a fashion that winds up with a better result than “significant left foot injury.”
In terms of principle and practice, the coach obviously has an in-game role in managing injury on behalf of the team. This notion of “if the medical staff says he’s good to go, he’s full out good to go come whatever” is clearly fatuous.
But I’m going to wait for facts. It’s a reasonable but unconfirmed suspicion at this point. Nothing more.
(2)
Cam Reddish was insubordinate about the “go stand in the corner every possession” role, and rightly so. It’s almost a red flag about the player if he just meekly milquetoast goes along with such silliness.
(3)
“Re: Obi, I think there is evidence from literally last year that thereās a better player than this in there.”
I just don’t know about this. I always think about Toney Douglas at the end of the 2009-2010 season, before that summer of STAT free agency.
We had traded away the last of any of our good players, TMAC was injured. Toney Douglas was putting up multiple 20 point games. I remember thinking “dude, we got a player!” Then he ended up being an ok back up guard for a few seasons before he fell out of the league.
Usage has to go somewhere when good players aren’t playing. And end of the season games for teams that suck and are tanking or not in the playoffs…I just don’t think you can trust those numbers that much.
*** the Dubs really fucked that offseason up.***
Nice to be able to really fuck up an off-season and still win a championship the next year. (Isiah tried that tactic four or fives times, but the championship alluded him, poor guy)
Well, I am there in terms of confirmation. You’ve just convinced me that this is what has actually happened — the most Knicksy (or perhaps Thibsy) possibility is for Jalen Brunson to turn into 2012 Derrick Rose, so that’s what the universe must choose.
Maybe this is the value of load management — the smart teams would have kept Brunson out of the game in Miami and conceded a loss to protect their asset. Can’t imagine Boston letting Tatum play in the same scenario.
Come April, I see us regretting the trade of our playoff chances for that one great win in Miami.
The thing about Cam is if he indeed tried to go rogue, he miscalculated because he sucked. If his intention was to prove he deserved a bigger, or at least different, role he wound up proving the opposite.
Based on last year I think Obi could actually make the case that he should have a bigger/different role.
Trying to make sense of how taking Brunson out of the game because he was injured confirms how Thibs has no clue as to when to take an injured player out.
But yeah, everything that goes wrong is on Thibs.
Jalen Brunson is 21st in the NBA in total minute played this season. While that certainly puts him near the top, he’s not at the very top. If you look at the players above him, all are good or great players on good teams.
I mean…he’s 26. He’s in the prime of his career and he has no major injury history. He had more than a week off of rest during the all-star break not that long ago. The Miami game wasn’t the second game of a back to back.
Is Thibs supposed to load manage a 26 year old starting point guard who hasn’t ever had a major injury?
Are we overthinking this because of Thibs and Derrick Rose?
Like he sat out 2 games before this one last night. He’s not even in the top 10 minutes played this season. He’s playing about as much as a franchise player who’s 26 for a good team should be playing.
“Like he sat out 2 games before this one last night.”
The idea is that maybe he should have sat out more games than this.
It’s not about the minutes. It’s about tempting fate when signs of trouble come up. We should have proceeded in an abundance of caution when he came out in Miami. Just like Rose, Brunson himself is tough and wants to play, which is even more reason to enforce sufficient rest to fully heal.
I’m betting this is plantar fasciitis, which is basically forever. Wouldn’t expect him to regain his Q1 2023 form anytime soon.
What would OKC have done with SGA in this scenario?
“Itās not about the minutes. Itās about tempting fate when signs of trouble come up. We should have proceeded in an abundance of caution when he came out in Miami. Just like Rose, Brunson himself is tough and wants to play, which is even more reason to enforce sufficient rest to fully heal.”
He took 2 games off – almost a week. For most minor injuries that’s plenty of time to heal. The medical doctors cleared him and thibs yanked him last night when he wasn’t looking good. What does an abudance of caution mean? When the doctors clear him, thibs should add another 2 games of rest on to that just cause? By this logic, we should do this with any player anytime they have any sort of injury.
Brunson isn’t derrick rose. Yeah he plays hard and takes charges but he’s not flying through the air dunking the ball from the free throw line. Most of his game is below the rim. And Thibs pulled him after 19 minutes last night.
I mean, I get it. Its brunson and if he’s really hurt we’re screwed, but I just feel like any time any player gets hurt now, THibs get’s blamed. Like if Thibs was coaching the Suns people would be saying he shouldn’t let Durant shoot around in a warm up.
“The idea is that maybe he should have sat out more games than this.”
But the doctors cleared him to play. Is Thibs hovering over the doctors, threatening them to clear Brunson or else?
To cheer up i bring you the king of untying shoelaces!
https://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/3834997/jrsmithshoe.gif
Oh, the good times! š
***if Thibs was coaching the Suns people would be saying he shouldnāt let Durant shoot around in a warm up.***
This is what I would have written, if only Iād actually thought of it.
It is not the job of the coach to monitor injuries. It is the job on the medical staff, in conjunction with the player. That is true for all 30 NBA teams, and it is true before, during, and after games.
If a medical staff clears a player to play without restrictions, what happens after that is on the medical staff, not the coach. Even during the game, the training/medical staff is watching, and if they tella coach to pull a player, he has to pull him.
There isn’t a coach in the NBA that would sacrifice wins during a critical stretch of games by not playing a key player who the medical staff has cleared to play, beyond things like limiting minutes in a back-to-back to keep a player rested. This was true for Grimes, Mitch, Brunson (earlier hip issue) iHart, and RJ. I would expect that Brunson’s injury was handled under the same protocols as all of the others.
“What would OKC have done with SGA in this scenario?”
That’s not the question here. First off, OKC is not in the same situation (for better or worse, that’s a separate argument). Second, my guess is that if SGA was cleared by the medical staff to play with no restrictions, Mark Daigneault would play him.
Now the POBO or owner can step in and overrule the coach, but again, that’s not what we’re talking about here. I guess you can say that Leon should have weighed in and overruled the medical staff, but that would be a stretch as well given the overall team situation.
Even with proper rest and rehab protocols, players aggravate injuries when they return. It happens. Saying stuff like “he hurt his left foot by playing on a sore right ankle (a dubious hypothesis anyway), and therefore Thibs is to blame” makes no sense.
Yeah I mean before Brunson came up limping in the second quarter after that play he looked fine. A little rusty but it wasn’t like the game started and he was limping around. His shot was off but that’s to be expected after missing a few games. So what indication did Thibs miss that should have told him Brunson wasn’t ready to play?
there are things the coach can and cannot control…. when your player is on the floor and having trouble getting around… visibly limping and not wanting the ball in their hands… its time to call timeout or take a foul….
he’s done that multiple times with mitch… and other players…. he refuses to kill the ball for visibly injured people….
and that probably extends to game time decisions…. altho i’m not really killing him there….. there are times where you have to take the decision away from the player because some/most players will want to play no matter what…. that brunson suffered an injury shortly after playing a good 5 plays on a clearly injured ankle is not surprising… and it needs to stop before someone gets seriously hurt…. and maybe that’s already happened….
Sorry dphan, great post if it werenāt in 100% hindsight. If you were this good at predicting injuries I would like to hear about your other past predictions
I enjoyed the Mike Brown comments about the game linked to above. Despite the win he thought his team played badly and the Knicks played. He especially commented on Josh Hart (he kicked our ass, or something like that).
As someone pointed out on Twitter, Hart had more o-boards than the Kings. He is such a beast.
I’ve always been critical of Thibs playing the starters in blowouts, and still the think the Hornets game would have been a great time to rest Randle, but this Brunson argument is kind of silly imo.
I mean, he was actually the only one making shots in the first half. Unless I missed it, I don’t think one blogger made any kind of comment that Brunson looked gimpy or anything
it’s nothing to do with hindsight.. it’s common sense… if your guy is visibly hobbling on the court.. tried to get up and fell back to the ground… you get him checked out… it’s only a matter of time before something serious happens when you don’t prioritize your players health….
a lot of times it is nothing.. players fall all the time…. but brunson falling in the nets game was not just another fall.. he fell grabbed his knee.. and fell back down… at that point you gotta get it checked out…. but instead played most of the first quarter… the subsequent injuries are very likely tied to that…. and it’s not the first time either… we’ve had various live ball injuries where we’re literally going 4 on 5 for some odd reason instead of calling time out….
that we’ve ducked serious injury thus far is a minor miracle…. and hey brunson probably is not gonna be a career ender… but leaving him on the floor for a regular season game while being hobbled there’s no upside and there’s near unlimited downside…. not to mention you should care about your players’ health outside of wins and losses which should go without saying….
I just want to remind everyone that all these bad things started happening after Owen mushed us during halftime at Boston.
and no i am not referring to the kings game….. altho i wouldn’t be surprised if all the medical people and thibs did was ask brunson if he’s good to go….. i’m not making that assumption but i would not be shocked….
the event that triggered all of this was the first quarter of the nets game where brunson was left in after very visibly twisting his right knee /ankle….. he then hurt his ankle the next game on the very same leg…. and now he’s been having issues on the other foot….
all or none of those may be related… it’s not 100% but he was most definitely left in after very visibly hobbling in that nets game….. i don’t care who you are… what situation it is… the coach’s number one responsibility is to protect the well being of its players…. and if they are putting themselves in dangerous situations it’s incumbent upon you to take them out of that situation…. and that very clearly did not happen…..
Djphan, I was concentrating on the SAC game where not one game thread commented on a gimpy Brunson. Didnāt see the Nets game so will default to your take because I tend to agree with a whole lot of your posts
I’d be shocked if all the medical people did was ask brunson if heās good to go. š®
Re Obi, I’ll just say this:
38 MP 14/22 6/9 3P 35 PTS
40 MP 16/28 6/14 3P 42 PTS
Tiny sample size, end of season, perhaps a total mirage. And he’s not very good at D. Maybe he’s a tall Andrew Toney, but I remember him running roughshod over the opponents in those game.
I do agree he’s a partial idiot for standing in the corner, however. He should talk to JHart about how to cut, and then to iHart about when to cut.
Yeah, come on guys. They definitely rubbed some dirt on it as well, or at least kitty litter.
Yes. If he wants to win the title.
Only @djphan is making sense.
I think part of the issue is guys want to act tough and giys like Brunson want to get back out there and play. If a Doctor asks if they’re still in pain, it’s probably worth waiting a couple extra games to make sure he’s not just saying it.
Brunson is officially OUT for tomorrow’s game (sore left foot).
I -Hart is PROBABLE (sore left ankle).
We recalled DeQuan.
And re Toney, any NBA player can score 20 a bunch of times. Hell, even RJ Barrett can do that. As Shania put it, that don’t impress me much.
But 35 and 42 in consecutive games is at least a peek into something.
Raven – did you watch that Shania doc recently? My wife did and the kids are now completely obsessed with her. Against my best instincts I let my six year old daughter watch part of the video and I think she will be wearing leopard print for life.
With Thibās reputation, youād think the Knicksā inactive list would be a whoās-who of highly-paid players day in and day out. But the triage unit at MSG always has beds available ā more so even than a lot of his competitors. His supposed over-playing of people hasnāt resulted in breakdowns. The people that get hurt under him are the same people that got hurt when they played for more conservative coaches.
I just donāt understand the insistence on treating young adult males as if they are all made of glass. The way some of you talk itās almost as if youāre going to retroactively blame Patrick Ewingās failure to win a ring on Rick Pitinoās full-court pressing!
In seriousness: when he was in New York, Pat Riley preached that the way to avoid injury was to be in shape and to play your hardest on every play. Those Knick teams put themselves into harmās way almost every play and the long-term injuries sustained were few and far between.
If a dude says he can play, itās a good thing. Let him play.
so Donnie… what’s your take on concussion protocols then?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/09/sports/basketball/jr-smith-golf.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
JR Smith and Golf
***so Donnieā¦ whatās your take on concussion protocols then?***
My take on concussion protocols is that they should be different from plantar fasciitis protocols and other non-vital body part protocols.
so there is a line where you take the decision away from the player where they might not be the best judge of their own well being….
for you the line is head injuries… for me there’s been a lot of these cases where players are probably not the best judge of their own state… of course if you’re like KD or klay where they probably have all the info and they’re going to blow through it anyway….
this happens in boxing and MMA a lot and it’s not all about head injuries…. and it’s a lot more serious there…and I find it interesting at what line people draw where the player is in charge of their own wellbeing in the heat of the moment…
because you can choose to be a bystander or aloof and you probably won’t be held liable legally or socially…. and it’s not a matter of life or death….
but if someone’s on the floor and they’re hurting and nobodys stopping play …who’s responsible for it? is it the refs? coach? the player? other players?
food for thought….
Nets and Heat both won tonight….
Setting aside who is the best judge of a serious injury, it may just be better long term *strategy* over a season to keep a guy out for a game or two if he was hurt enough to need out of his last game. We are not in game 7 of the finals, yet.
āI can go coach; put me back in!ā smacks of the same old timey, anti-Moneyball logic in which a guyās girlfriend is valued as much as his on base percentage.
The real problem if you’re the Knicks is that you can’t afford to load manage when you’re fighting to get out of the play-in. When a guy is coming back from injury, you can’t rush that and risk losing them for longer. That’s where Thibs fucks up.
And again, I’m not a doctor but diagnosis I assume is often informed by a player’s subjective feeling of pain which the player can lie about, especially if you’re a Thibs-type player.
***ā¦whoās responsible for it? is it the refs? coach? the player? other players?***
Bob Dylan wrote this song, it was called Who Killed Davey Moore.
But brain and heart injuries can be life-or-death, itās not apples to apples. Dylan wouldnāt write a song called Who Injured Jalen Brunsonās Foot. The scope is too small and lacking in gravitas.
been thinking a bunch lately about those who view the world in terms of risk and cost versus those who view things mostly as opportunity and gain…
you would think the front office, medical staff, coaching staff and player themselves would be focused on sustainable health for the athlete, but…
i wonder just how much medical data a team is permitted to extract from a player…
based on their “value”, a really heavy investment in medical diagnosing and care must be taking place within each team…
i know that’s not true though…
I think head injuries like concussions are fundamentally different from other injuries like ankle or foot injuries. You have no pain sensors in your brain, so you canāt tell if itās still injured. You know right away if you ankle hurts or isnāt functioning right.