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Knicks Morning News (2023.01.12)

  • Knicks 119, Pacers 113: “A win’s a win in this league” – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, January 12, 2023 7:03:50 AM

    Knicks 119, Pacers 113: “A win’s a win in this league”  Posting and Toasting

  • Emily Ratajkowski enjoys a friendly chat with a mystery man at Knicks Game – Daily Mail
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, January 12, 2023 4:48:02 AM

    Emily Ratajkowski enjoys a friendly chat with a mystery man at Knicks Game  Daily Mail

  • Brunson, Barrett help Knicks hold off Pacers, 119-113 – The Washington Post
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, January 12, 2023 2:13:00 AM

    Brunson, Barrett help Knicks hold off Pacers, 119-113  The Washington Post

  • Donovan Mitchell reacts to Jalen Brunson’s ‘crazy’ Knicks run – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, January 12, 2023 1:11:00 AM

    Donovan Mitchell reacts to Jalen Brunson’s ‘crazy’ Knicks run  ClutchPoints

  • Knicks’ RJ Barrett stays aggressive, unfazed by poor shooting in return from injury – Yahoo! Voices
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, January 12, 2023 12:48:00 AM

    Knicks’ RJ Barrett stays aggressive, unfazed by poor shooting in return from injury  Yahoo! Voices

  • The Knicks are Jalen Brunson’s team now ? and it’s not even close – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, January 12, 2023 12:42:00 AM

    The Knicks are Jalen Brunson’s team now ? and it’s not even close  New York Post

  • Mavs Losing Brunson to Knicks ‘More Inexcusable’ Than Nash in 2004, Says Bill Simmons – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:50:00 PM

    Mavs Losing Brunson to Knicks ‘More Inexcusable’ Than Nash in 2004, Says Bill Simmons  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks 119, Pacers 113: Scenes from some good players bailing out one bad head coach – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:23:31 PM

    Knicks 119, Pacers 113: Scenes from some good players bailing out one bad head coach  Posting and Toasting

  • Knicks slip past Pacers after nearly blowing huge early lead – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:21:00 PM

    Knicks slip past Pacers after nearly blowing huge early lead  New York Post

  • Windiana! Knicks Survive Pacers as Barrett Returns, Brunson Scores 34 – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:20:11 PM

    Windiana! Knicks Survive Pacers as Barrett Returns, Brunson Scores 34  Sports Illustrated

  • N.Y. Knicks 119, Indiana 113 – New Haven Register
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:13:10 PM

    N.Y. Knicks 119, Indiana 113  New Haven Register

  • Knicks Notes: Barrett, Quickley, Hartenstein, Grades – hoopsrumors.com
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:00:00 PM

    Knicks Notes: Barrett, Quickley, Hartenstein, Grades  hoopsrumors.com

  • Myles Turner, Aaron Nesmith, Oshae Brissett out for Indiana Pacers vs New York Knicks with injuries – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 8:14:44 PM

    Myles Turner, Aaron Nesmith, Oshae Brissett out for Indiana Pacers vs New York Knicks with injuries  Sports Illustrated

  • Myles Turner news: Injury updates for Pacers C vs. Knicks – DraftKings Nation
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 7:41:40 PM

    Myles Turner news: Injury updates for Pacers C vs. Knicks  DraftKings Nation

  • Is Jalen Brunson The Knicks’ Best Scorer? – The Cold Wire
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 7:14:28 PM

    Is Jalen Brunson The Knicks’ Best Scorer?  The Cold Wire

  • Knicks: Malik Beasley a name to watch for as trade deadline approaches – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 7:00:48 PM

    Knicks: Malik Beasley a name to watch for as trade deadline approaches  Empire Sports Media

  • Lakers Trade Rumors: Knicks Seeking Two Second-Round Picks For Cam Reddish – LakersNation.com
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 6:30:35 PM

    Lakers Trade Rumors: Knicks Seeking Two Second-Round Picks For Cam Reddish  LakersNation.comThe Knicks could be a legitimate trade partner with the Milwaukee Bucks  Behind the Buck PassKnicks Reportedly Interested In Trading Wing, Should Celtics Consider Deal?  Sports Illustrated

  • RJ Barrett Available For Knicks as Pacers Visit on Wednesday – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 6:28:03 PM

    RJ Barrett Available For Knicks as Pacers Visit on Wednesday  Sports Illustrated

  • Pacers vs. Knicks Preview, TV Schedule, Lineups and Injury Report – Indy Cornrows
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 6:25:00 PM

    Pacers vs. Knicks Preview, TV Schedule, Lineups and Injury Report  Indy Cornrows

  • Nerlens Noel must pay agent Rich Paul full commission on Knicks contract after settling legal battle – Fox News
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 6:23:00 PM

    Nerlens Noel must pay agent Rich Paul full commission on Knicks contract after settling legal battle  Fox News

  • Nerlens Noel, Rich Paul, Klutch Sports Group settle Pistons center’s legal case – The Athletic
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 3:53:41 PM

    Nerlens Noel, Rich Paul, Klutch Sports Group settle Pistons center’s legal case  The Athletic

  • RJ Barrett available to play vs. Pacers – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 3:34:55 PM

    RJ Barrett available to play vs. Pacers  ClutchPoints

  • Indiana Pacers at New York Knicks odds, picks and predictions – USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 2:26:00 PM

    Indiana Pacers at New York Knicks odds, picks and predictions  USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire

  • Stephen A. Smith drags Knicks for Donovan Mitchell failure with epic zinger – Elite Sports NY
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 12:16:13 PM

    Stephen A. Smith drags Knicks for Donovan Mitchell failure with epic zinger  Elite Sports NY

  • Should Immanuel Quickley remain in the starting lineup when RJ Barrett returns? – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 11:57:57 AM

    Should Immanuel Quickley remain in the starting lineup when RJ Barrett returns?  Posting and Toasting

  • Zion is the missing piece for the Knicks | JB Smoove – Deadspin
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 11:10:12 AM

    Zion is the missing piece for the Knicks | JB Smoove  Deadspin

  • Tyrese Haliburton, Pacers Still Heated Over Knicks Analyst’s ‘Wannabe All-Star’ Comment – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:35:50 AM

    Tyrese Haliburton, Pacers Still Heated Over Knicks Analyst’s ‘Wannabe All-Star’ Comment  Sports Illustrated

  • Meet Phantom of the Garden, Knicks’ organist Ray Castoldi – Eurohoops
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:05:00 AM

    Meet Phantom of the Garden, Knicks’ organist Ray Castoldi  Eurohoops

  • Latest trade report gives Knicks fans another reason to be thankful for Immanuel Quickley – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 10:00:00 AM

    Latest trade report gives Knicks fans another reason to be thankful for Immanuel Quickley  Daily Knicks

  • Indiana Pacers vs New York Knicks Odds, Injury Report, and Predictions for Jan. 11 – 8 Points, 9 Seconds
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 9:29:00 AM

    Indiana Pacers vs New York Knicks Odds, Injury Report, and Predictions for Jan. 11  8 Points, 9 Seconds

  • Are Knicks and other NBA teams blowing lots of leads, or does it just seem like it? – The Athletic
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 9:17:32 AM

    Are Knicks and other NBA teams blowing lots of leads, or does it just seem like it?  The Athletic

  • Reacting to SNY’s proposed Obi Toppin Knicks-Pacers trade – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, January 11, 2023 8:00:00 AM

    Reacting to SNY’s proposed Obi Toppin Knicks-Pacers trade  Daily Knicks

  • 61 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.01.12)”

    Important wire-to-wire win, albeit with a scare, against a direct contender.

    One of the best first half of the season, fueled by JB, Grimes and the returning RJ, tricked us into a state of relaxed confidence that became first a 40-points allowed 3rd quarter and then a drop by drop bleeding that lead to a frantic finale.
    In a thrilling twist of the script the Pacers never lead and never tied it, but Hield (7 made threes) missed the shot to do it with 49 seconds remaining and only a grotesque Grimes’ sequence(*) saved us from giving them another chance.

    At the end it was a Knicks’ win, temporary giving us the 6th spot in the East over Indiana despite the same 23-19 record because of the tiebreaker.

    Anyway, while I’m happy with the win and the record, I don’t give a fuck if all the league give away large leads (just as lot of people making “wrong” choices doesn’t make them “right”, for instance voting for Bolsonaro), so I’ll always be a bit nervous when we squander a 25-points lead against a Pacers team missing Turner and with Hali out down the stretch.

    Next stop Washington, to face a Wizard team that just beat the DeRozan-less Bulls despite missing Beal and Porzingis, with Taj Gibson starting and renowned rebounder Dani Avdija pulling down 20…

    Plays Of The Game (In chronological order):
    – Randle’s block on Mathurin
    – Grimes’ aforementioned three.

    Stats Of The Day:
    – 0. Pacers’ largest lead. Imagine losing a game like this…
    – 28-33 vs 15-21. NY shot more FTs and shot them better. Free thrown are a very important part of a game you know?

    Surprising Stat Of The Day:
    – 54 vs 38. Pacers’ lead in points in the paint. What?!?

    Grades:

    Brunson A
    Another game that we’d never have won without him. 34 points on very good efficiency, low assists number but the FT-yips looks like a distant memory (19-19 the last 2 games).
    He’s really making the difference this season with his clutch play (4th in NBA in clutch points).

    Barrett B
    A good return, had a nice first half and a decent 3rd then his legs gave up (1-6 in the 4th) but he took almost all good shots even when missing. He ended up playing 41 minutes and got heavily criticized, but this time the sin is all on the coach.

    Randle B-
    One of the most Bad-Julius game of the season (6 TOs, he was often slow on the double-teams), he still get a pass because:
    a) he rebounded very well (16)
    b) he took only 12 shots
    c) As I wrote above he made a huge play that stifled Indiana’s tide, blocking Mathurin’s layup (Brunson hit a three on the next possession).

    Robinson A-
    With Turner out I would have expected even more dominance. 38 good minutes with only 2 fouls, very active on defense (5 STLs), forgotten on offense.

    Grimes A-
    18 points for Glue, with a clutch three, 5 boards and above average defense (2 STL). You have to love this kid.

    IQ B
    Back to his 6th man role, he goes on with his usual hot&cold fluctuation from outside (1-7 3FG or -5 °C/23 °F) but he found other ways to score, putting in his usual effort on defense and filling the boxscore (4 REB, 5 AST).

    Toppin C
    Morphing into a three-pointer only shooter. His weak rebounding and wobbly defense prevents him to ever earn Thibs’ trust and while he’s maybe still rusty from the injury I can’t imagine, barring foul troubles or injury to the starters, Thibs using him if not with the dropper.

    Hartenstein C-
    His ordeal goes on. He can’t move, he can’t jump, he doesn’t shoot. Let him heal and play Sims you (evil) Genius…

    McBride C-
    A great steal in an otherwise vapid game.
    I love his energy and I know he’s a decent jumpshot away from a solid rotation spot, but that decent jumpshot isn’t close (36% FG, 28% 3FG, 68% FT).

    Thibs D
    His roster’s back at full strenght but he used a 9-men rotation with an hobbled I-Hart instead of Sims, played RJ 41 minutes despite his heavy legs and squeezed JB for 42 (Deuce 6) and Randle for 39 (Toppin 9).
    In the best case scenario I still have 122 regular season games left with him to bear.
    I hope my yoga and breathing exercises will help during this enduring test, and when this is over I’ll be ready to open my own school of “Thibetan meditations”…

    * Grimes had an easy layup but, In a crazy perfect “new basketball style” move, he refused it (even the Pacers’ broadcasters were astonished), reset to the left corner and later, after an IQ’s drive-and-kick, buried a three (earning him a “Play Of The Game” star).
    Had he missed the three I’d probably killed him.

    Later in the postgame he claim that he did it because Mathurin was running at full speed to contest him.
    I watched the sequence in slo-mo two times and to me he had the time to shoot (back when I played they did teach you that in those circumstances you should bank the shot, thus denying the chance for a block because it’d be interference).

    Please Q-Dot, next time take the easy basket, make it a 2-possessions game and let the other team think about how to score…

    So i fell asleep in the 2nd half to achieve the following, first i only watched the part where we were killing it (so i feel good about the team), second i have Max’s grades back for me to know better how the game went (although first i read the game thread and still got to be scared if we’d pull it off or not), and last but not least, we’re back to 6th. Nice. 🙂

    Watched the highlights, read the thread and the cap. Thanks, Max!

    Crazy game, but winning prolly saves us a thousand complaining posts today. The minutes distribution looks insane, but I guess that’s what Thibs is gonna do, regardless of what we say. Sad Obi didn’t have more impact, and re: minutes — Fast forward to the playoffs (yay) during which we will all post endlessly about Brunson being banged up and gassed by the end of the season.

    Knicks def. on track to be Above 44 wins, if that’s still a thing for us. For me it is.

    When this squad is playing D and is cold blooded on offense i want to keep em all and see them grow till contending.
    But when they start fuckingaround…maaaaan….

    Most annoying so far:
    Obi not playing more and harder in the paint,
    Hartenstein frequently wrongly positioned,
    Thibs auropilot rotations

    Based on that recent Athletic article on blown leads I feel even more strongly this morning than last night that the 3 point shot is destroying the sport. I don’t blame teams for playing this way. The current shot distribution is more correct over the long haul (though I think sometimes overdone by some players), but imo it creates way too much volatility and randomness within individual games.

    Again, I’m with Pop. If they are going to continue down this path, let’s just add a 4 point shot and 5 point shot and turn the sport into a complete circus act.

    Again, I’m with Pop. If they are going to continue down this path, let’s just add a 4 point shot and 5 point shot and turn the sport into a complete circus act

    I’m with Pop too.

    What once was a tactical weapon has became a strategic one and players are training and practicing for it since their early ages.

    I think they will do the “multiple lines” sooner than later, otherwise they need to delete the corner three and draw the line back 1.5-2 feet or in a few years the three point line will be the new free throw line.

    An easy way to fix it would be to just move the three point line back even more and maybe take away the corners three?

    I don’t agree with Pop on this. The 3P exists for a long time now, and what you have to do is defend it. If you’re defending guys so far away from the basket and they still score, they deserve the extra point.

    yea i agree moving the line back is the next major change for the sport and the best solution.. but i think they should keep the corners and just make the court bigger and move all the lines back… maybe even just a few inches to start…

    there was talk about this maybe 5-10 years ago i forget but the problem with expanding the court is removing space for prime frontcourt seats but i’m sure arenas can accommodate the same number of seats… it just needs to be squeezed elsewhere…

    i think it needed to be done awhile ago since the game is getting faster and more space to do things allows for more things to happen but also to reign in some of the 3pt shooting…

    I’m going to zig as others zag and complain about Isaiah Hartenstein because I don’t have much to contribute on the blown leads front. Player fatigue and league wide 3PT volatility seem like possible explanations, and I’d add that us being a mediocre-to-bad 3PT team ourselves certainly doesn’t help. It often feels like we’re trying to put out a fire with water guns when opposing teams get hot from 3. There’s no quick fix for that outside of the personnel changes we all know we need, though I do think we should give Grimes an even greener light. Maybe that’ll get him into Tier 5B.

    But Hartenstein, man, he’s giving us absolutely nothing. He also plays the only position in which it’s criminally easy to get 48 minutes of productive play for pocket change. Thomas Bryant is playing on a 1/$2M deal!

    I don’t need to be lectured about the skills he has that Mitch and Sims do not. I am aware. Guess what, he’s not putting them to use at all. They are not helping the TEAM.

    I don’t know whether the coaches or Hart or some combination of the two are to blame, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point to an obligatory 10-15 useless minutes every game as one of many culprits if we’re going to keep losing close games.

    Maybe we all don’t love the volume of 3’s because the Knicks don’t shoot it very well at volume.

    It’s kind of weird to be like “the game sucks now” when the reason for the game sucking is that the players got too good. I understand the argument, and I kind of agree with it, but it’s weird for people like Pop to get actively MAD at it. “The sport was better when I was a young person” is an argument that is as old as sports itself. There were people complaining when baseball players started wearing gloves, and when pitchers learned to throw curveballs.

    To use a D&D term, pro sports seems to always evolve in the direction of min/maxing, that is, exploiting percentages to give your team the best statistical chance of winning. Platooning in baseball was an early form of this. The West Coast offense in football was another.

    Eventually the teams that do the min/maxing start beating the teams that don’t, so the other teams have to employ the same strategy, and all of a sudden the game doesn’t look like it did when you were 16 or whatever, so you have to change the rules. It’s a very natural progression.

    The players are just better at shooting 3’s, not necessarily better overall. I’m not one of those “things were better back in my day” dudes. But far fewer players today have a solid midrange game or post moves. There are entire swaths of players who can’t do anything but dunk or shoot threes. I’m exaggerating but we have a whole generation of players who have been practicing three pointers since childhood. So yeah they’re better at that but other aspects of the game are lost. I mean the showtime lakers lit up the scoreboard shooting very little threes compared to today. For me it’s more about variety. You had run and gun vs grind em out defensive teams vs pick and roll heavy teams vs triangle teams. Now most teams run a very similar offense. It’s still fun to watch but can get boring and repetitive.

    The flip side of this is that the three pointer is an equalizer and maybe we shouldn’t complain about teams being able to storm back and win games in the last few minutes. It is exciting and there’s a lot of parity in the league right now which is good. Gives mediocre to bad franchises like the Knicks some hope LOL.

    It’s the same in other sports: nobody plays “three yards and a cloud of dust” anymore, so players like Larry Csonka are extinct. Every hitter in baseball is expected to hit with power, so you don’t see many Tony Gwynns anymore.

    The post-up center, the bruising fullback, and the slappy singles hitter are players that we recognize and miss, but they disappeared from their sports because they stopped generating wins. They started getting beat by the stretch 5, the slot receiver, and the 40 HR shortstop. The idea of the game is to win.

    The idea of the game for the team is to win. But the idea for the fan is to be entertained.

    Personally i prefer no safe leads than blowout soups…

    As long as the competition of the sport is high there’s no reason to panic

    Now if the problem is aesthetical and you prefer paint battles then make the dunks count for three points too and let the madness begin!

    Yeah I mean generally I am entertained and I think teams being able to comeback like this is exciting. But I do miss the nuances of the game and different styles certain players or teams had.

    I understand the critique but I love the way the game is currently played. To me, it’s just aesthetically better, especially now they have cleaned up some of the cheap fouls and the take foul in particular. People like points, people like fast breaks, foul shots are boring.

    Most of us grew up with maybe the ugliest brand of winning basketball ever played (Knicks and Pistons in dead heat there) but I don’t feel nostalgic for it at all. At the time, I was well aware that we were terrible offensively. The 93 Knicks were 22! in the league in ortg out of 27. I don’t miss that.

    And as someone who devoted a good amount of time to pointing out that 3 points is actually more than 2 points on this very board I feel somewhat vindicated by the way market inefficiencies have been corrected over time.

    I like the NBA. It seems to be in a good place to me.

    I love JB, in a league of waning fundamentals his craftiness and footwork are a pleasure to watch (and he shoot threes too 😀 )

    Although, it looks like there was a defender there ready to contest and the pass was the right play.

    I love him but we have to agree to disagree 😉

    P.S, Where’s the possession? It looks like in the clips there are only first half actions.

    This one was from the first quarter. It might be a different play people were talking about.

    I also don’t think the aesthetic experience has worsened, but I do think the NBA should feel free to dump some obviously antiquated rules like 3-second and 5 second back-to-the-basket violations. Probably wouldn’t do much, but might increase stylistic diversity just a bit.

    There’s really no excuse not to win our next 4, with 2 against a depleted Washington team and 1 against the Pistons. Toronto is ok but we have to beat them at home this time.

    Gotta pile up those wins while we can!

    I’m with Noble here, morbidly wondering about what Thibs is thinking with Hartenstein. Maybe he’s better at staying home on schemes, not that I’ve noticed, but it feels like Sims would get to 2-3 rebounds Hart doesn’t get and have an extra block and an intimidation on a drive if he were in there instead. Maybe I’m just seduced by quick feet and hyper hops, but it’s a mystery to me.

    And just to finish the whining (American version), the drop-back in coverage at the last moment that Hart does that leaves a guy WIDE open for the ten-foot jumper just drives me crazy. It’s super nice he’s putting a body on his man, but a 10-footer is a layup in the NBA. There’s not going to be a rebound to contend over. Not that he’d get it anyway, he’d just tip it to the opposition…

    I think there should be changes to the game’s rules to incentivize more stylistic diversity. Remove the back to the basket rules, and make 3 pointers slightly harder to hit. The game doesn’t need massive changes and is currently quite aesthetically appealing, but on the other hand, there’s little worse aesthetically than when two teams start chucking from 3 instead of driving to the hoop, which has been and will always be the core of basketball. The math advantage of 3’s and disadvantage of (non-layup/dunk) 2’s needs to be tweaked a bit, is all.

    I think the issues with out second unit stem not from our guards but mainly, actually, from Hart. He is a total non-entity on both sides of the ball, and does nothing in particular well. I don’t know if that’s because he’s injured or regressing, but he’s been actively hurting the team for a while now, and Sims has been clearly better lately. The bench guards can’t get into rhythm at all when their screener is not a roll threat, and that’s the core of the issue here. We should at least do more side pick and roll plays with Obi as the roll man if Thibs refuses to bench Hart.

    Mitch and Sims are such great athletes, and Hartenstein is just not in the same ballpark in terms of strength and quickness. I like his effort, but really he should be the third big here. His advertised strengths haven’t really panned out, and now he’s taking minutes from a clearly superior player.

    Three pointers are great and they’ve made the game more exciting and more interesting than ever. Blown leads are good for the game. It means no more flipping over to Is It Cake in the 3rd quarter.

    “I don’t need to be lectured about the skills he has that Mitch and Sims do not. I am aware. Guess what, he’s not putting them to use at all. They are not helping the TEAM.”

    I’m not sure if he’s still playing hurt, unhappy with his role here and getting frustrated, or this is just random nonsense, but I agree he’s not giving us much on offense recently.

    I’m fine with him not making plays. We have Brunson, Quick, Randle, Rose and now Grimes that I’d rather have the ball.

    But you can’t tell from his boxscore whether he’s adding value via better spacing.

    If he’s standing 15 feet or more away from the basket and someone is staying close to him, he’s adding value that Sims won’t add simply because no one is going to guard Sims away from the basket.

    The advantage of him being able to shoot from outside is not necessarily that we want him to shoot a lot from out there and score points. It’s that he’s potentially enough of a threat to have be guarded outside. That allows the “other” players to get to the rim easier and get more offensive rebounds because he’s dragging a big away from the basket.

    He’s going to have to be more effective than he has been lately. He’s has to defend, rebound. and make the easy ones at a higher rate. But again, it’s not his boxscore that you should be entirely focused on. That’s not where the value of better spacing accrues.

    It’s the same in other sports: nobody plays “three yards and a cloud of dust” anymore, so players like Larry Csonka are extinct. Every hitter in baseball is expected to hit with power, so you don’t see many Tony Gwynns anymore.

    The post-up center, the bruising fullback, and the slappy singles hitter are players that we recognize and miss, but they disappeared from their sports because they stopped generating wins. They started getting beat by the stretch 5, the slot receiver, and the 40 HR shortstop. The idea of the game is to win.

    This is where I disagree with baseball’s approach. Sure I don’t like watching a game where half the lineup is hitting .230 or less. But the problem isn’t the shift. By banning/curtailing the shift, baseball is just extending the problem. Sure it sucks to watch that lefty hitter pull the ball to the shortstop who is playing somewhere in right field.

    However the real solution is to get hitters to NOT PULL THE BALL. Eventually one player or team will buck the trend and start hitting it the other way, or even lay a bunt down. That team will start winning, and more teams will follow. It’s exactly the min/max theory we’re talking about above.

    By getting rid of the shift, you’re just encouraging more of this. If you want more Tony Gwynn’s, let the shift dominate the sport for few years. Hitters will adjust (or be out of the league), and the game will change for the better.

    I understand the critique but I love the way the game is currently played. To me, it’s just aesthetically better, especially now they have cleaned up some of the cheap fouls and the take foul in particular. People like points, people like fast breaks, foul shots are boring.

    Most of us grew up with maybe the ugliest brand of winning basketball ever played (Knicks and Pistons in dead heat there) but I don’t feel nostalgic for it at all. At the time, I was well aware that we were terrible offensively. The 93 Knicks were 22! in the league in ortg out of 27. I don’t miss that.

    EXACTLY. The Knicks offense of the 90s was just awful to watch. Dump the ball to Patrick in the low post. Wait 10 seconds while he makes a dent in the court dribbling, and then, uhhh…

    Remember offense was so bad, they MOVED the THREE POINT LINE **IN** for a season!

    I do not miss those days at all. The game is a thousand times better now.

    I’m not saying I want to go back to the very physical 90s (the 80s were great), but imo the game has “devolved” from one where the top teams use varied approaches on offense (fast, slow, inside, outside, inside/ out, outside/in etc..) and the player and stylistic matchups from game to game were interesting to one where it’s mostly a function of who has the best 3 point shooters, who is better at getting their 3 point shots off from the best locations and the best ways for their players, and who has all the 3 point shooters scouted well and forces the opposition to take 3s from their less ideal spots in tougher ways. And the LUCK component of all that has increased.

    I don’t see the attraction of wanting one particular skill and a lot more luck to dominate the game.

    “The advantage of him being able to shoot from outside is not necessarily that we want him to shoot a lot from out there and score points. It’s that he’s potentially enough of a threat to have be guarded outside.”

    Again, I am aware. This is the kind of thing that shows up in on/off numbers, and Hartenstien is very well-positioned to have shiny on/off numbers given that he plays 10 minutes a game against bench players.

    Lo and behold, our offense is much, much better with Mitch on the court.

    Spacing is valuable, but doesn’t make up for not being able to throw the ball in the ocean from the beach.

    As long as the Best in basketball and not the youngest, the tallest, the strongest or the luckiest team wins the chip while competition and entertainment are high i don’t see any problem.

    I want to register my acute displeasure with the idea that Hartenstein spaces the floor at all. He does not–literally no one pays attention to him on offense unless he’s at the rim. He is in the bottom quartile of scoring among centers close to the basket, and the floater is not a real weapon (it has a pretty low PPP). He has also been an awful 3 point shooter during his time here, and is taking more than he has ever before in his career, indicating to me that the previously higher percentages were a small-sample mirage. He is perpetually open, and perpetually misses. Having a center with a below average PPP floater and a 24% 3PT% means he does not stretch the floor. One need only watch the games to see this in real-time, as he is constantly open, constantly not scoring, and therefore doing nothing to stretch the defense. It is a myth that Hart helps the offense by stretching the defense.

    Back to The Knicks and Thibs playing the starters too much and them getting gassed, I don’t know why we can’t go with this 10 man rotation going forward

    Brunson/McBride (with Rose as insurance)
    Grimes/IQ
    RJ/Fournier
    Randle/Obi
    Mitch/Hart (or Sims)

    Once Grimes and Mitch got healthy and we inserted McBride into the rotation, the defense got much better. Giving Fournier 10 minutes a game so RJ doesn’t play 45 isn’t going to kill us that much especially if he’s just playing against second units and we could use his 3 point shooting. Obi needs to play a bit more so Randle isn’t gassed.

    And if Thibs is so worried about defense, plays Sims over Hart. But if you ahve that 10 man line up, you got 4 plus defenders with Grimes, Mitch, IQ and McBride. Grimes, Mitch and IQ all get a lot of minutes. Randle, RJ, Brunson are all average or slightly below average defenders. And again, you can use Sims if you want more defense in the second unit.

    This will not wear dudes out so much. Make it happen!

    Nobody guards Hartenstein on the perimeter, this can be observed in every single game. It’s actually something I enjoy looking for, and I chuckle to myself when I see it, which is often.

    He’ll often float around out there and opposing defenses just pretend he isn’t on the floor, because he can’t hit a shot from the perimeter nor can he attack a closeout. He actually HURTS spacing.

    I was excited for the Hart signing and maybe he is still hurt, but I would not be opposed to trading him (maybe the Clips would want him back?) and just rolling with Sims as the back up. Maybe there’s a scarp bin center we can pick up off the waiver wire as third string insurance. Will the Wiz cut TAJ? LOL.

    The Wiz started Taj yesterday. Don’t think he’s going anywhere soon.

    I like that lineup layout above, only difference is I’d be fine with Thibs keeping it a nine-man rotation with Fournier out (except when it might make sense, which isn’t often). The key is to spread the minutes out more. Give Brunson and RJ 34 minutes each, give Deuce 12, give Grimes and IQ 32 each. Mix and match. And as discussed already, give Sims a chance at backing up Mitch.

    I’d be thrilled with that (except poor Obi won’t get enough minutes no matter what).

    Just for comparison, yesterday it was Brunson 41.5, Barrett 41, Grimes 30.5, IQ 26, Miles 6.

    I said that we should rest him multiple times already. He’s clearly a much better athlete that what he has shown this season.

    Hart played 9 terrible defensive minutes yesterday. Didn’t attempt a shot because no one will pass him the ball. Grabed 2 rebounds and blocked one shot. Saying that we’re loosing close games becuase of Hart may be an over reaction.

    Also, he shoots the corner three at ~38%. Others teams are not guarding him because they know ball carrier won’t pass him the ball. Nothing to do with his ability to hit it.

    Yeah for the record I also don’t think Hart is doing much in terms of spacing.

    The droid you’re looking for if you want to argue that defensive respect makes up for meh percentages is Quickley. I think the spacing effect is very real with him. Defenses close out hard on him despite a raw look at the numbers saying he’s not all that efficient. Hopefully that changes, but regardless no defense is gonna plan to let that guy shoot.

    I’m sure there are tracking numbers that can clarify this one way or the other, but my eye-test impression is that defenses are pretty content to let Hartenstein chuck from 3, and the reason he goes to the floater so often is because defenses don’t care to take that away either.

    Again, the reason this is so frustrating is because it’s so easy to get competent center play for 48 minutes. I mean Sims averages more PTS/36 with a .787 TS% than Hart does with a .537 TS%, and is a MUCH better defender if you ask me. What the hell are we doing here?

    i think you really have to look at ihart as a strategic piece than something that’s a plus player currently…. the idea of him is stronger than the actual value.. and you can say that about 95% of the roster…

    the upside isn’t terribly high so it’s not a huge mistake to switch him out…. but the alternative isn’t too high upside either… we know what we’re getting and in 10-18 mins it’s not really mattering all that much to wins/losses either way… ihart isn’t exactly a complete zero out there.. he grabs boards and he contributes… it’s just there might be slightly better alternatives…

    and this might sound all devil’s advocatey but when the decision is close like that .. you should find out if the idea of what you had with the guy will pan out…. because that guy who can space occasionally…. and distribute the ball is super tough to find and can be very valuable… that might’ve been a fluke but that’s what the regular season is for to find out…

    we’ve been having a similar discussion not too long ago about obi/randle lineups… we need to find out if it works before deploying it in high leverage minutes in the playoffs… to thibs’ credit… deploying ihart and sims together is rather creative and kind of was and has been working…

    ultimately these bench pieces don’t matter much when they’re playing this little because alternatives will likely be around the same skill level… and so you want the guy who gives you the most upside… right now ihart has the more theoretical upside but the more he plays like this the more that story deteroriates… but i still think it’s worth more of a look…

    I’m totally fine with giving I-Hart more of a look, contingent on him actually being used for his strengths. Put him at the elbow and let the man pass to cutters, for God’s sake!

    But if we just play him as a budget Mitch/interchangeable with Sims (which he is not, since Sims can play switches but not drop, basically the opposite of what Hart can do) but for some notional 3 point shooting, I have no idea why we acquired him in the first place.

    The flip side of this argument is that nobody on the team except for Grimes bothers to cut. Which is spectacularly weird, and I blame Thibs for this — it’s like they all have little shock collars that go off if they try to move toward the basket without the ball. Yet Grimes does continue to cut (against the grain…).

    So there’s literally nobody to pass to. So Hart hands off instead, a play that even I could do (at least once before I was squashed flat by a large man working through my screen).

    You know what I loved about last night’s game, and the season overall? It’s actually 2 things:
    1. Randle finding ways to be effective when his shots aren’t falling.
    2. When Randle doesn’t have it, we don’t have to have him forcing things because we have a Brunson. And by the looks of it(if his current stretch of good play before the injury isn’t a fluke) we have an RJ too.

    Maybe the top-end talent isn’t there, it’s proof we have valuable pieces at minimum- and I haven’t even mentioned Quickley or Mitch or even Obi when he’s all the way back

    Maybe the top-end talent isn’t there, it’s proof we have valuable pieces at minimum- and I haven’t even mentioned Quickley or Mitch OR GRIMES or even Obi when he’s all the way back

    There, i corrected it for you. And now i agree with your comment. 😉

    Ahhh yes..GRIMES! Oops..damn..I don’t know how I left Tony Allen with an offensive game out

    “The Indiana Pacers announced on Thursday that guard Tyrese Haliburton suffered a left elbow sprain and a mild left knee bone contusion during the third quarter of last night’s game at New York. He underwent an MRI this afternoon on his elbow and knee in Indianapolis and the team is awaiting additional opinion on the results of those scans.”

    “To use a D&D term, pro sports seems to always evolve in the direction of min/maxing, that is, exploiting percentages to give your team the best statistical chance of winning.”

    And where is the evidence that’s actually how it works? Try it like this, if you took away the 3-point line, what team WOULDN’T have won an NBA title? Golden State? Cleveland? Lakers? Celtics?

    Do good teams actually win more now because they shoot more 3s than good teams did in the past? Do bad teams lose less now because they shoot more 3s than bad teams did in the past?

    And as a fan, i’m not sure the defensive brawls of the 90s were any more ugly than the 3-point chuck fests we can see today. Houston with Harden pretty much became the posterboy for 3-point analytics and that team could be damn well unwatchable even when it was generally winning.

    Mike

    I have no idea why we acquired him in the first place.

    only because of the weird shit that thibs did with kemba – I wonder if he’s playing hart so much to make a point, like maybe he wasn’t a fan of hart prior to us acquiring him…

    Funny to think back that at the start of the season the Knicks media were planting the seeds for the Knicks center controversy and to the extent we finally have one it’s should Sims be playing over Hart.

    Every time I look at an OKC box score and see SGA put up another spectacular line I feel like I want to weep.

    Yeah DRed, the disappointments of this season thus far are few but there definitely are some:

    -Hart in general
    -Deuce’s shooting
    -Obi being (deservedly?) marginalized
    -Cam, I guess…

    But overall, not much to complain about. But there has been some regression in Randle’s shooting and decision-making, and RJ’s minutes seemed excessive last night. Definitely worth keeping an eye on…

    And less than a month until the trade deadline…still wondering what will happen with Fournier, Rose and Cam…

    still wondering what will happen with Fournier, Rose and Cam…

    evian is still owed a lot of money…best player of the three though…is he worth 18 million a year for an additional 2 years – no…

    recent film on derrick rose is not positive…i can’t imagine anyone needing him…

    cam – as an injury replacement or for added depth, why not? i think we’ll end up releasing him probably…

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