[news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 28, 2022 2:13:00 AM
Kemba Walker on shutting it down last season: Not a ‘tough’ choice New York Post
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 28, 2022 1:17:50 AM
NBA round-up: Dallas Mavericks’ Luka Doncic scores 60-21-10 … Sky Sports
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 11:42:06 PM
Mavericks’ Luka Doncic sets career high with 60-point triple-double vs. Knicks The Athletic
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 11:39:17 PM
Dallas Mavericks Rally Over Knicks, Luca Doncic Sets Record NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 11:32:00 PM
Knicks choke late as Luka Doncic’s 60 points lead Mavericks to OT win New York Post Luka Doncic destroys Knicks in unprecedented fashion: Seven numbers to know from Mavericks star’s MVP night CBS SportsThe Knicks’ Lineup Magic Has Officially Run Out Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 11:19:00 PM
Spencer Dinwiddie with a 3-pointer vs the New York Knicks Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 11:19:00 PM
Reggie Bullock with a 3-pointer vs the New York Knicks Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 11:18:48 PM
Dallas 126, N.Y. Knicks 121 SFGATE
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 10:16:15 PM
Luka Doncic scores 60 as Mavericks beat Knicks 126-121 The Associated Press – en Espa?ol
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:54:00 PM
Knicks’ Jalen Brunson sits for Dallas reunion with sore hip The San Diego Union-Tribune
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:11:33 PM
BREAKING: RJ Barrett’s Injury Status In Knicks-Mavs Game Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:09:33 PM
BREAKING: RJ Barrett Leaves Knicks’ Dallas Visit With Injury, Will Not Return Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:05:00 PM
Kemba Walker says there’s ‘no bad blood’ towards Knicks Yahoo News
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 8:56:00 PM
Knicks’ Jalen Brunson sits out vs. Mavericks with hip injury, RJ Barrett exits with lacerated finger New York Post
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 8:12:36 PM
Knicks’ Jalen Brunson misses Dallas return due to injury ESPN
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 7:58:40 PM
BREAKING: Jalen Brunson OUT For Knicks’ Visit to Dallas Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 7:48:32 PM
Game Thread: Dallas Mavericks vs New York Knicks Mavs Moneyball Luka Doncic Sets New Mavs & NBA Records in Miraculous Win vs. Knicks Sports IllustratedThe Knicks’ Lineup Magic Has Officially Run Out Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 7:06:21 PM
NBA Rumors: This Knicks-Sixers Trade Features Tobias Harris NBA Analysis Network
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 6:10:41 PM
Potential Knicks targets ahead of trade deadline Yardbarker
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 5:34:51 PM
Obi Toppin still needs more recovery time after Knicks medical staff reevaluates leg injury Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 2:21:14 PM
76ers: The Latest on Knicks’ Rumored Interest in Tobias Harris Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 2:20:00 PM
Obi Toppin ‘progressing’ from injury with Knicks return timetable uncertain New York Post
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 1:15:34 PM
Knicks have ‘talked internally’ about pursuing Sixers’ Tobias Harris PhillyVoice.comReport: Knicks have ‘talked internally about the idea of acquiring Tobias Harris’ Liberty BallersKnicks Discussed Acquiring Tobias Harris hoopsrumors.com
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 12:49:16 PM
NBA Odds: Knicks-Mavericks prediction, odds and pick ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 11:50:31 AM
Pete Davidson Takes Sister Casey to Knicks Game After Emily Ratajkowski Is Spotted Kissing Artist Jack Greer Yahoo Entertainment
[news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 27, 2022 8:00:00 AM
3 reasons why Knicks should strongly consider trading Isaiah Hartenstein Daily Knicks
128 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.12.28)”
I really don’t know how to feel about this game. On the negative side, the team melted down late in the game again and Thibs refused to expand his rotation when he needed to. On the somewhat positive side, Luka put on an absolute show that will probably never be matched, an without RJ & Brunson- those guys showed true grit. They gave everything they had. That’s something to build on at least.
This was definitely a game where Thibs’ stubbornness bit him in the ass. But I’m not sure how I can be mad at losing a hard fought game that took OT and Luka’s 60-21-10 to put us away when we didn’t have RJ & Brunson. Or Obi for that matter. It’s definitely a weird feeling to not be mad at this loss. But Thibs has to stop telling himself, “these guys are young. They can handle it”. You want them playing their best in the clutch moments of a tight game. Not using Cam and Rose(enough) at the very least, and maybe even Fournier, robs they guys of a chance to have the energy to play their best late in this particular game. Thibs has to do better with this
What’s with the new horrible pop-up ads that I’m getting consistently this morning whenever I refresh the page? This wasn’t happening 24 hours ago! Luka?
You’re a way better man that me.
Not mad about a game lost after leading by 9 with 35 seconds to play?
After another one lost by 1 point on a buzzer beater because we went 0-4 from the line in the last minute?
After blowing a 23-points lead at home against Atlanta?
After allowing 145 at home to the OKC Thunder?
After the three home losses where we had a lead with 1:00 to play against Portland, Memphis and Milwaukee?
And I still remember last year’s losses before the ASG, huge 20-plus points leads blew away in a moment.
To quote Early Bird “how the fuck does this shit keep happening?”…
After Christmas’ loss I decided to stop watching Knicks’ games live.
It’s not the record, it’s not losing games, it’s the way we lose again and again and again.
It’s being back to be the laughinstock of the league, the team against which “historic things” happen.
Thank Heaven I did that, otherwise last night I would have had a stroke (watching the “condensed” game this morning I was only annoyed). 🙂
We’re not a laughingstock because Luka went nuclear. We’re not a laughingstock at all. This is normal.
I don’t get people’s expectations. Someone last night literally criticized Deuce McBride for being 5-6 instead of 6-6. Perfection is now the standard we’re holding Deuce McBride to? He shot 84% from the line last night. If we need him to shoot 100% to win games, then we are counting on unlikely things to succeed.
And again it’s “the optimists” losing their shit over this stuff, largely because they seem to expect these guys to be someone else. Our coach is Thibs, and you’re mad because he treated game 35 of the NBA season like game 7 of the NBA finals?
The other thing going on here is distortion of perception based on the sequence of events. We shouldn’t have beat the Mavs just because we scored most of our points before they did. And 4 game losing is not fluky because an 8 game winning streak preceded it. Honestly it’s like Donald Trump thinking he got robbed in Georgia bc they counted his votes early in the day and Biden’s at night.
We’re 18-17, on pace for 42-40. This is exactly where we should be.
I doubt Swifty will ever consider me to be in the optimists’ camp 😀
I get the argument Hubert, but in the last 20 seasons teams losing by 9 with 35 seconds remaining were 0-13,884. What happened is absolutely not normal in any way.
This was a historic choke job and the fact that it happened, just like Max said, after a run of other choke jobs has got to be addressed. Rationally I see the arguments, but I’m still pissed, and I don’t think anyone here would put me in the optimistic camp either.
The brightest takeaway from last night is that it seems like there is a level of internal improvement available just by switching RJ and Grimes roles in the offense.
Well, yeah, that specific part is a little wild, Bruno. I just meant bad luck following good luck is normal.
“We’re 18-17, on pace for 42-40. This is exactly where we should be.”
“If only we’d won more close games, we’d be way better!” is like the quintessential refrain of fans of mediocre NBA basketball teams.
There are several teams with better players than the Knicks, particularly at the critical high end of the roster. There are several teams with currently worse players, but those currently worse players are very young and project to quite possibly be better than the Knicks current best players.
We don’t get to watch either true star players or young premium players with true star potential. We get simulacrums. That’s Knick fandom, right there.
“I don’t get people’s expectations.”
Most people either don’t want to admit the team’s uber-purgatorial state — I mean, they’re like practically the textbook definition of the term — or understandably won’t confront what that status really means as it plays out day to day over the season. That denial will manifest itself in all manner of ways, including dogging a meh player who somehow was deployed for 46 minutes missing a free throw.
There was no need to adjust priors because of the “winning streak,” a predominantly-ISM driven, partially ITH-driven, lesson in randomness. Nothing about it changes the fundamental place or direction of the team, any more than the tides fundamentally alter the reality of the seas.
Building on Poindexter’s post: I was furious after the game, but in the dawn of a new day I can learn to love last night’s loss (hear me out).
The fourth quarter was excruciating. We all kind of knew how it was going to end but — the difference, even from previous poor losses, was our personnel. This was not losing with Bullock and Hardaway (who clanged repeated bricks like they were still wearing Knick uniforms) No. The bright side of last night’s game is that the kids lost a tough one all by themselves.
Grimes was a monster, IQ played like Derek Harper, Mitch was *mean* and overwhelming, Deuce played an entire game (read that again) and had a chance to win the game for us at the free throw line. That’s gotta be the first (and last?) time he will ever stand in that position. For most of the night the ball moved well, we had cutters, we got to loose balls, we out rebounded, we were definitively *better* than the Dallas Mavericks. It was more than luck. It was by design. We played very well.
Now. Showing elite skill at the end of games is undoubtedly the weakest aspect of our team. We can’t just *hustle* the good close out. We need either a) the guy who scores at will or b) to keep doing what got us the damn nine point lead in the first place. Sadly, the Knicks always (always!) forget how to pass down the stretch and everyone on the floor just looks around for the Luka Doncic on our team. As this blog has spent countless hours expressing, “WE DO NOT HAVE THAT GUY.”
We do have Brunson who has been close to that guy, but even he has choked some last minute games. We have RJ who *thinks* he’s that guy (and may yet become him) but he is not yet. We have Randle who can fake it in a pinch, but, once everyone keys on him, he is a terrible decision-maker, so it’s like watching wolves tear at a huge old buffalo — not pretty. Two of the three were out last night, so we got the buffalo hunt.
As for fatigue, I agree with Poindexter that Thibs failed his guys by driving them into the dirt: IQ 51 min, Grimes 48, Deuce 46(!), Randle 45, but Monsieur Doncic himself played 47, so maybe we should quit whining. Yes, they would have been more clearheaded if they had rested, but who knows what the score would have been. (That’s just me playing Devil’s Advocate. Thibs absolutely should have helped them with better rotations earlier in the game, especially once RJ was gone).
Finally, despite all of the above, we must recognize that the absolute upside of last night is that IQ, Grimes, Mitch, and Deuce lost a trial by fire that they won’t soon forget. Grimes was already going after every loose ball and trying to will us to victory (a contender for being That Guy). Deuce had a “rep” at something every kid dreams of — shooting free throws to win a close game. Deuce failed but he still got that rep in what is essentially a meaningless game otherwise. This is all good news. We should hate the loss (hate it!) but celebrate the opportunity it gave our guys to learn. “Why do we fall?” “So we can learn to pick ourselves up.” 😉
Okay. I’m going back to throwing things at my TV.
The brightest takeaway from last night is that it seems like there is a level of internal improvement available just by switching RJ and Grimes roles in the offense.
Except the other teams will adjust to Grimes’s hypothetical “new role” and the boulder will roll back downhill.
As this blog has spent countless hours expressing, “WE DO NOT HAVE THAT GUY.”
Which would be perfectly fine if (a) there was a 19 year old or thereabouts guy on the roster who projected to that; or (b) a plan to get that.
Unfortunately, there’s neither — thus, “Team Pessimism.”
RE: THAT GUY —
From the Happy Clapper (optimist) camp — If you squint, Grimes looked like Klay Thompson. IQ might have won that game all by himself if he wasn’t gassed at the end. Obi didn’t play. RJ didn’t play. Mitch was a beast *in the post*. My god — we’re not talking about it at all — but if Post-up-Mitch is unlocked for real, it changes this team significantly. There was a lot of young good out there last night.
For the Sky Is Falling camp — You may be encouraged b/c it is exactly games like last night that prolly make Leon pick up the phone to seek That Guy in a trade. I still hope he doesn’t blow it all up (yet), but last night was exhibit A for your argument.
I was just reviewing the play-by-play to remember what happened.
In the last 35 seconds we committed one turnover and went 3-4 from the line. It’s hard to call that a choke job.
Of the 13,884 teams before us who were losing by 9 with 35 seconds left, I think we probably beat 13,880 of them by going 3-4 and committing one turnover.
We were just on the wrong side of a miracle, performed by Luka.
Make no mistake, losing the way we did is tough to swallow. But under the circumstances, I can’t find a way to be mad. I’m more disappointed in Thibs at most. Arguably the best player in the league went nuclear- as Hubert said. What are you gonna do? The guys played as hard as we could have hoped for. It doesn’t absolve them though. But this loss definitely is 90% on Thibs’ head, 10% on the players. I just hope we make it to the Spurs game without a new ailment popping up. This is a good time to give Brunson and RJ another day off and play our trio of break-in-case-of-emergency vets. Cam, Rose, and Fournier of course
Still sucks to lose that game though
Yeah, at Luka’s free throw: Grimes and Deuce banged into each other and lost the board. Luka got it, and a miracle talent defeated the two “hustle” guys who should be better for it next time.
And, I’m half joking to mention MJ in the same post as our guys (ducks), but folks always forget Jordan lost (lost) to the Pistons in 88, 89, 90. Obvs we are not there yet (or ever), but that guy lost a lot of tough games before he won it all.
Leon should strip it down to studs and start over. He won’t, but he should. This is not a contending roster and under reasonable draft and growth projections, never will be.
In fact, we’re less worried than we should be that Leon’s gonna get desperate and empty the asset chest for a fake “star.”
There’s always the possibility of a miracle (Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic), but that’s not a plan and every single other team in the league has the same possibility of said miracle.
Side note: I can’t think of two superstar basketball players I would rather see team up than Luka Doncic and Nikola Jokic. And for what it’s worth, they can both be free agents in 2027.
E with the usual blizzard of negative posts following a loss. Purgatory, teams will adjust to Grimes, blah blah blah…
Dude, it’s really fucking tiresome. If the ball doesn’t miraculously bounce to Luka for the tying basket, 1000% you’d be silent today
Maaaaan listen…if Jokic and Luka teamed up in the NBA, we will see the dominance that Shaq and Penny should’ve had for sure.
I would stop watching NBA hoops because it wouldn’t be fair LOL
It might be tiresome, but it’s not false.
It’s not really even “negative,” either. There’s nothing negative about a realistic appraisal of where the team stands. They don’t have a closer and their top-end talent, where NBA games are won, isn’t that good. That’s why they lose these games and why the wins don’t really matter that much in any big-picture sense. They can be fun on occasion to get us through the winter, to be sure.
But I’d prefer actual contention. The wins are far sweeter then.
“But I’d prefer actual contention.”
Respectfully, last night is what contention feels like. We lost a heartbreaker in OT to a once in a generation talent on a career game. It wasn’t the playoffs (at all) but it felt like it. That’s a good thing.
this stuff isn’t common but it’s not like it’s never happened before…. i was actually more impressed than angry or anything… it took a calamity of errors on the rebound and some lucky bounces …. but luka made an incredible shot that he actually made a lot more difficult than he needed to…. and that was already on top of an absolute all-time performance…
there’s really not much to be angry about.. we were extremely shorthanded against a likely playoff team… the guys played about as well as you can imagine and you can second guess any number of things along the way but we had a 99+% chance of winning right to the end…
the real story is that we’re just another roadbump in someone else’s documentary…. which actually hasn’t happened in awhile so it was kinda cool to have that feeling again….
I think you’re absolutely wrong, E.
This team should play out the season and let the chips fall where they may. There’s so much we don’t know yet. It’s not worth investing in them and it’s premature to start over.
At the end of the season, we should use both our draft picks and assess whether Thibs is the best coach to take us forward. There’s nothing we should do between now and then except watch.
I don’t mean like “strip it down right this very second.” Depends on the bids you get; they might be better in the summer. My bad for the poor communication.
“This team should play out the season and let the chips fall where they may. There’s so much we don’t know yet.”
I respectfully disagree with the amount of unknowns. We know that internal growth and reasonable expectations of likely draft positions isn’t enough (or really even close to enough) for contention. (And I think virtually the entire KB board agrees.)
That’s all that’s really required to be known in order to be actionable.
What unknowns are you suggesting we need? If you mean ultimate trade value of current assets, I agree. Beyond that, I’m not sure what you mean.
Ultimately, this is a teardown project. As Zach Lowe said in the midst of the winning streak, there’s no discernible path here to real contention and the team needs what he called a “tentpole” star. We all know that’s true. So it’s either “pray for a Giannis-like miracle,” or it’s tearing down. (“We’re going to trade for two stars” is so silly as to not even warrant serious discussion or consideration.)
Thibs absolutely isn’t the right coach to take us forward. That’s essentially a given and I’m not sure what more data would be necessary on that front.
They should obviously use both draft picks, yes, of course. Another essential given.
Idk why Thibs didn’t leave Sims on Luka most of the game. I feel like Sims’ size was giving him problems.
Generally, I think Thibs is too quick to pull a young guy when he makes a mistake. But he needs the athleticism these young guys bring to the table. Randle is a strong guy, but he couldn’t contain Luka.
“At the end of the season, we should use both our draft picks and assess whether Thibs is the best coach to take us forward. There’s nothing we should do between now and then except watch.”
+1. Let’s hope *all* the kids get enough reps so *what* we watch is more conclusive than in the previous years.
And, yeah, I posted yesterday that Thibs is still the big question mark for me. I’m not sure his game management skill and X & O philosophy is up to the task of winning it all. I used to hate (like vehemently hate) the guy for not playing our kids, but he’s fixed that now, so maybe he fixes the other things too? Everyone needs a chance to grow? But IDK.
The biggest unknowns are RJ & Grimes. You’re too dismissive of Grimes by suggesting the league can easily adjust to him. RJ has been erratic AF but he’s still 22. Cutting down on RJ’s USG and increasing Grimes’ is something we need to see.
Nothing has changed. I might just adjust our “needs” slightly to say we need a taller, longer, more athletic player (ahem) to help defend guys like Doncic, Tatum, Leonard, Siakim and other #1 options we can’t match up with now because some of our players are undersized at their own position. It’s no accident when these guys go off on us. They are going off because we are too small to defend some of them.
I don’t want to say anything too negative about Mitch. He went 8-9 and had 16 boards, but that was our best matchup last night. Christian Wood is a bad defender and nowhere near big and strong enough to contain a guy like Mitch. He was on Mitch some of the time. Every time that happened, we are supposed to just dump the ball into Mitch in the post and allow him to dominate. The problem of course is that Mitch has no post game at all.
You don’t develop a post game so you can use it every night. Most nights it won’t be a very good idea to post up. You develop it for the nights or switches you force when you are are too big and strong for the defender. He needs to work on that even if he doesn’t use it often given that he’s not going to stretch his game out.
It’s heartbreaking to lose like this. That Dinwiddie 3 was the killer. He was defended well and made a very tough shot to give them life.
Doing that doesn’t lead to contention. I guess technically it’s an “unknown,” but an irrelevant one. I certainly don’t have an issue “waiting” for it, though, because I’m not advocating a massive in-season fire sale.
I’d also keep Grimes, anyway. He’s still cheap.
I’m arguably RJ’s biggest KB fan, but I’ve seen enough. But, sure, let’s see if he can make The Jump in the second half.
One of my favorite parts of last night, btw, was imagining someone watching this performance from Luka and thinking the problem is that guy doesn’t pass to his teammates enough.
The Mavericks are awful, and they’re the 6 seed out west after going to the WCF 6 months ago.
“What unknowns are you suggesting we need?” — First among many:
Grimes: 33 points on 12/25, 7/16 from three, 6 bounds, 4asst
Is that sustainable in any way? Last night was the first game (ever?) that Grimes was featured on offense.
@Ess — totally agree Sims should have covered Luka longer — perfect opportunity to test our Rodman Theory to the fullest. FWIW (eye test) Sims has looked less confident during the losing streak, but that’s why we play the games.
“The Mavericks are awful, and they’re the 6 seed out west after going to the WCF 6 months ago.’
Yeah, very similar to LeBron carrying his first Cavs team to the 2007 Finals where his second best player was…Ilgauskas?
Although it’s very unlikely Luka will be able to do the same this year
> What’s with the new horrible pop-up ads that I’m getting consistently this morning whenever I refresh the page? This wasn’t happening 24 hours ago! Luka?
Yeah so I just realized that I had ads turned off for the last 3 months, which kinda sucks for me. Usually the ads help offset the cost of hosting. To get them back on, I just installed a google plugin – and it’s supposed to put ads on automatically.
Unfortunately I’d have to play around with it not putting ads on every possible whitespace. Right now there’s a button for automatic placement, or I have to dig around to get the code to get the ads only on just the top/bottom. So it was easy to setup this way, but to get it in a better place, I’ll have to customize which takes time.
The good news is, most of the ads seem to disappear as you scroll down, (which I imagine most people do). And on my phone I just see the top one.
Your challenge, E, is to stop trying to get it all back in one swing.
Imagine us playing out the year, establishing a productive balance between RJ & Grimes, replacing Thibs with a better coach, and hitting on our two first round picks.
We still wouldn’t be a title contender, but the path to becoming one wouldn’t seem as far.
I am an optimist in the sense that I see a path forward for us that doesn’t require a teardown. I am a pessimist only in the sense that I don’t think Leon is smart enough to travel it.
What’s funny is our net rating and pythagorean record has barely budged during the losing streak. Losing 4 heartbreakers in a row will do that.
I was definitely furious last night because, well, what the fuck? Why is it always fucking us? But having slept on it I still feel materially better about the team after 35 games.
We have the 9th best net rating, 10th best SRS, and our pythagorean record is 20-15. These are the indicators I’ve always used for team quality and I’m not going to stop now because they, in some ways, cut against things I said prior to the season.
We have to add an elite player to this team. That’s insanely hard to do, but there’s at least a plausible argument it’s a more likely path to contention than a full rebuild. Not sure I buy that and no one would be happier than me if we we Presti’d this thing, but the idea that we could trade, say, RJ and the motherlode of picks for a player that would get us to 55+ wins isn’t totally insane. Of course, it’d be even better if we could pull a rabbit out of a hat and draft that guy.
Obviously the more good players we draft the easier such a trade will be, so you know, make your damn picks and pick good players.
“Cutting down on RJ’s USG and increasing Grimes’ is something we need to see.”
That’s what I’ve been whining about.
Last year was different. We didn’t have a PG or many guys that could create anything reasonable off the dribble. So we were forced to use Randle and RJ to create for themselves way more than anyone would ideally want.
Now we have Brunson. He alleviates two problems, playmaking and scoring. So RJ, as the least efficient higher volume player, is supposed to back off for now.
I personally don’t think Grimes’s skills are at the stage where we can count on him for close to 20 almost every night. But he’s at least much better at what he does than RJ is at what he does. So we should try to shift some of that volume his way. If they take away some of the 3s (and they will try), so be it. The good news is that Grimes has an extremely quick release. So it’s going to be tough close out on him. If they stick to him like glue instead to take him out of the game, maybe he can do a little damage off the dribble (we’ll see), but that would sure help the spacing anyway. That value would accrue to RJ, Randle, and Brunson ‘s efficiency.
Is that sustainable in any way?
“Sustainable” in the sense that he has a chance to become the tentpole star?
I (we) have our answer on that. He doesn’t.
If you mean “sustainable” in that he has a chance to be a good player or even player then yes, absolutely. But at that point, we can’t let ourselves lose sight of association math and how several good players don’t add up to one true star.
Association math is very practical and unforgiving and non-romantic. You win with better players and especially top-end stars. As fans we can dream of pluck and the underdog and our “depth,” and root for our faves and our good players, but GMs who do that are going to get annihilated.
The Knicks problem isn’t “not having good players.” (*) They have good players.
(*) Well, technically, it is — but not for these purposes.
Imagine us playing out the year, establishing a productive balance between RJ & Grimes, replacing Thibs with a better coach, and hitting on our two first round picks.
We still wouldn’t be a title contender, but the path to becoming one wouldn’t seem as far.
I’d need a more expansive definition of “hitting.” If it’s just a couple more good players, I’d simply refer back to unforgiving association math. A “good” roster with no stars is purgatory.
“One of my favorite parts of last night, btw, was imagining someone watching this performance from Luka and thinking the problem is that guy doesn’t pass to his teammates enough.”
Last year he had Brunson, previously he had KP and Brunson, and right now he’s missing DFS, Josh, Green, and Max Kleeber who all do valuable things on lower volume.
No one can sustain what he did last night. He was playing against a team that did not match up well against him so he torched us because it was the only way they could win. But night in and night out over a long season and against tougher playoff matchups, if he plays like that, they will never ever win a championship.
I don’t think there’s a “sky is falling” crowd. There’s a “this is what the sky is” crowd. We are what we are, we are what we thought we are, and there aren’t a lot of clear paths forward.
We’re actually playing a bit better than I had anticipated, because we’re getting strong play from Randle and Grimes has been a solid rotation player. Nobody is really flat out stinking out the joint. Even RJ is coming around a bit.
The ceiling just isn’t all that high unless we find a star late in the draft. We don’t have a young player with a cathedral ceiling, and we don’t figure to have a high lottery pick. We’re whatever we are now, plus whatever marginal improvements we get from young players developing and guys that we add with mid to late 1RPs.
The sky isn’t falling, but… take a look at the sky and get used to it. This is pretty much it.
Speaking of how stupid Leon Rose is, reminder that if we had just taken Jalen Johnson and AJ Griffin with the two picks he didn’t think could help us, we’d have one guy on the bench who could cover those big wings that are killing us and another guy on the bench who could add desperately needing scoring punch to the second unit.
See, offseason mistakes are to me what blown leads in the regular season are to others. I can easily get over last night, but I will never get over not having those players on our team.
Strat, I actually agree with you more often than not. But this is crazy, man! How could you watch one of the best individual performances of all time and say “if he plays like that, they will never ever win a championship”?????!!!!!!
I understand your ethos; you’re like Phil trying to get MJ to understand that he needs to rely on Scottie and Horace. But there is no Scottie and Horace in Dallas. Brunson and Porzingis did not qualify.
On the positive side from last night, that Grimes no look pass to Mitch for the slam was sublime. He’s not just 3 and D, Grimes is actually a pretty good passer as well. I have high hopes for the kid.
“I’d need a more expansive definition of “hitting.”
If we landed two more players like Grimes that many teams around the league would love to have and that may get a lot better, that makes it way easier to trade for a star without gutting the team too badly.
It’s arguable whether teams would rather have picks or players. It depends on the picks and players involved and which team it is, but if Leon chooses to draft two players this year we have to hit on both of them for the added depth or get really lucky with one and get a future star.
I was devastated by the game last night. Maybe a top 5 horrific regular season loss.
But stepping back, it was almost entirely caused by young players failing to execute down the stretch. The only positive take is that they need to learn how to close out games by playing the entire 48 minutes at a high b-ball IQ level. For example, when you have time outs you can’t get trapped like Grimes did. (That’s on Thibs too, but I digress.)
Maybe having the likes of Rose and Fournier and Burks in there at the end salvages the game. But allowing the kids to fall on their face is how you find out what they are really made of.
On a related note, Mitch’s FT shooting is not a small problem. He may have the ugliest form in the history of the NBA.
“On the positive side from last night, that Grimes no look pass to Mitch for the slam was sublime. He’s not just 3 and D, Grimes is actually a pretty good passer as well. I have high hopes for the kid.”
He is also showing that his offseason work on attacking the basket is paying off.
“Strat, I actually agree with you more often than not. But this is crazy, man! How could you watch one of the best individual performances of all time and say “if he plays like that, they will never ever win a championship”?????!!!!!!”
What he did last night was spectacular, but it was partly the result of the matchup and is not sustainable for the duration of a season. They’ll be carrying him off in a stretcher by the 2nd round of the playoffs if he tries to do that every night. They’ll lock him up, get physical, beat him up and his body will eventually give out. He has to pass, make teammates better, and “selectively” take over down the stretch of big games.
““sustainable” in that he has a chance to be a good player ”
Yes, of course. I don’t think Grimes is the next Steph Curry, but I do think he can help us win games, and he plays the *right* way. Grimes moves without the ball, he defends, he *passes*, and he can hit the three. Last night he also recognized we needed scoring (after RJ went out) and he adjusted his game accordingly. I like that too, so let’s find out — Is it sustainable?
Overall, I’m with TNFH’s take above. Play the season. Give our young guys as many “reps” as possible to win/lose tough games. Go ahead and let Sims die on Siakam or Doncic. I mean Luka scored 60 anyway, so last night is just a missed opportunity for Sims and us to see what he can do (and to close an unknown a little bit). The games don’t matter otherwise. Run Mitch in the low post minimum five times a night. Let him get stripped. Run it again. Who cares?
I think Leon wants same. Our assets on the court *should* get better. Draft well, and keep searching for the white whale.
re: acquiring a tentpole star, sooner or later another situation like the one that caused the likes of LeBron, Kawhi, KD, Harden, AD, etc. to switch teams is going to happen. In prior years, we were not prepared for the moment. That’s the key. Build a team with enough “good” players to either facilitate a trade that leaves enough to build around the star you acquire, or that can generate enough cap space on the fly to sign a disgruntled megastar in free agency, perhaps by the sign-and-trade route. If you hit on a Giannis in the draft, hooray, but I don’t think anyone is banking on that.
The Spida Chronicles at least confirmed that stars are considering the Knicks a positive destination. Not one that they will take a discount to come to, but that they will not pull a “The Knicks aren’c cool anymore” like KD did. I’m fine with that at this time.
RJ (plus pick) for OG is the move. Opens up the floor for more PrimeTime Grimes…
What the Spida Chronicles really showed is that the Knicks don’t have the assets to really compete in the star market. The other GMs are perfectly able to project reasonable future growth and improvement in the assets on offer and the Knicks were found wanting. The Jazz preferred Markaten and Sexton to the Knicks’ guys.
You are what your record says you are. They tried and whiffed. (We don’t know the full story of whether the Pistons were interested at any price, but it looks very much like they tried and whiffed on Ivey, too.)
They can offer up these same guys in the next “star trading” season, assuming it even happens, but there’s no reason to think the result will be any different.
By the way, I have no idea what was and wasn’t on the table but any decision to value Grimes highly looks vindicated.
I’ve said previously I had a hunch he could handle more usage and was being a good soldier by emulating Danny Green. I am by no means taking a victory lap on that, we need to see it a lot more, but last night is a hell of an encouraging data point on that front.
Seems like at a minimum we have a Danny Green starter kit (Danny Green was a key rotation player on 3 different champions) and might have something more than that.
“if he plays like that, they will never ever win a championship.”
“They can offer up these same guys in the next “star trading” season, assuming it even happens, but there’s no reason to think the result will be any different.”
I said this often during the offseason and still mostly agree, but at a minimum Grimes would be valued more highly now. The upcoming Mavs pick has also appreciated in value a bit.
TBD on RJ and Quickley. We’ll have a better idea of their value after game 82.
Players getting better can outweigh them losing years on their contracts when it comes to other teams’ valuations. At the end of the day teams want good players. If we can rack those up, we’ll be in a decent position to make this kind of trade.
“What the Spida Chronicles really showed is that the Knicks don’t have the assets to really compete in the star market.”
Respectfully disagree. All it showed is that we valued our assets higher than the trading partners did. Whether we or they are/were right is still very much TBD.
it would have at least slowed down luka’s rebounding a bit…someone mentioned it the other day – sims is like a bigger version of deuce out there…,
And that is why Leon’s draft blunders have been so devastating. A package of Obi Toppin, Jalen Johnson, AJ Griffin, and four unprotected first round picks would be enough to get you that guy and still leave you with Randle, Mitch, RJ, Grimes, IQ, and draft picks every other year.
It’s going to take us at least a year, probably two, to make up for those egregious errors. But we seem more likely to commit them again rather than address them.
Echoing Noble, Knicks are a top 10 team in the league in Pythag and SRS even after the losing streak. Book a 6 seed unless Toronto comes roaring back. I think anyone pretty much would have signed up for a 6 seed before the season started (since everyone was worrying that we’d end up in the no man’s land of the back-end of the play-in.) We’re actually fairly close to contention (that is, we’re one elite player away) if you think our SRS and Pythag is for real. And I do.
But yes, like others have said: use our draft picks, either in trades or in drafting. No more punting. Also, we need to consolidate this team sooner rather than later.
in today’s episode of ‘let’s pump the brakes a tad’….. anyone who depends so highly on 3pt’ers is very capable of having games where he shoots a lot of them and sometimes they go in….
is he capable of more usage? there really isn’t a precedent for a guy this dependent on 3pt’ers being anything more than a danny green type… and danny green was across the board better… as far as more shots…
it’s very hard to get more usage when all your shooting is catch and shoots…. and basically every shot yesterday was that… every shot on the season has been that and every shot he’s had before this has been that… sometimes against bad defenses you’ll find alot of those opps but that’s not going to happen enough to get to anywhere near 20 usage unless we start importing steve kerr’s offense and see some evidence that grimes can hit a curl…. he hasn’t even been doing that….
he’s doing fine… but anymore than that you really need to lean on games like this where he’s not doing much more than doing what he’s doing in practice….
Noble, take a victory lap. And thanks for the Dudley amusement, darules. Painful but funny to watch.
That was a game where the Greek gods simply chose sides (perhaps we shouldn’t have made fun of their cultural icons…). If Grimes and Deuce hadn’t run into each other on that foul shot… if… if… if… just a ton of simple things that could have resulted in a too-close win instead of a too-close loss, despite Luka heroics.
Still, a box score filled with silver Drachmai. IQ with 15 assists. Mitch 20-16. Sims with 8 rebounds in 13 minutes (he was dominating, and I agree looked good on Luka, should have just let him play until he fouled out). Grimes. Grimes. Deuce for all his warts was still the fourth highest scorer on the team (RJ box score, but whatever). Speaking of such, RJ playing only two minutes…
I wrote a screed last night, but did anyone else see the Randle iso nuttiness in the last four minutes, or was that just me?
I agree that we *didn’t* have the assets to both make the Spida trade AND have enough left over to build around him. And that’s the whole point.
We *acquired* several assets over the past 6 months:
-a borderline all-NBA player on a half-max deal
-a borderline all-star PG on a half-max deal
-a 22yo with significant upside showed lately signed to a half-max deal
-a budding versatile 3-and-D plus player with 2+ years left on his rookie deal
-a borderline all-defense starting C on a long-term descending contract
-a versatile backup C on a market value deal
-a versatile combo guard with 2-way potential with 1.5 years left on his rookie deal
I won’t bring up Obi, Sims or Deuce…they are still in formative stages and/or have limited trade value based on low ceilings, although one can argue differently. And Cam, Fournier and Rose are what they are…virtually worthless at this point.
That all of this has us in the large pack of mediocre teams is hardly discouraging. We all want more, but we have a lot of company in ATL or CHI or MIN or MIA or POR or IND or DAL or SAC or WAS or TOR or LAL, all of whom want more but have limited ways to get more.
Clearly we are never going to be ORL, or SAS, or DET, or HOU any time soon. There is an insurmountable obstacle in the way of that path, and it’s not just Leon.
We are also not going to be MIL or BOS or DEN or MEM or NOP or CLE any time soon. They built their advantages over many years.
So it becomes a question of whether the FO has the patience to see this chosen path through…slow, steady upgrades, commitment to youth, being ready when opportunity strikes again in coming months and years.
We won a bunch of games where the opposing team was missing their star player(s).
Then we started playing teams that were NOT missing their star players, and that didn’t goink
Our SRS is a bit inflated. Not hugely inflated, but a lil’ bit.
and SRS and pythag isn’t really that informative given teh competition we’ve faced…. as i’ve alluded to previously… we have been playing against teams without their best player A LOT…. and that is not factored into SRS and pythag…
SRS and pythag tells us where you were… but if you want it to tell you where you’re going you have to lean on the fact that we will see similar things in these 30 some odd games as we will the next 40 some odd games… that’s very unlikely…. that’s why leaning on that will be very misleading because we will not be a top 5 team in the east by any stretch…
@ Raven — “I wrote a screed last night, but did anyone else see the Randle iso nuttiness in the last four minutes, or was that just me?”
Yes, def saw that. If there’s any nuance, however, it looked like Randle didn’t want *all* the responsibility at times. Yes, he was probably exhausted, and having him chase Luka didn’t help, but, overall, I thought Julius was approaching unselfishness last night (4assts). He actually looked down to play the Total Basketball team game we want. Even Alan commented (I think) that the Knicks were guilty of overpassing at times. Nice problem to have in comparison to every other season, IMO.
We are also not going to be MIL or BOS or DEN or MEM or NOP or CLE any time soon. They built their advantages over many years.
Unclear what this means. Two years ago, in the season the Knicks got the 4 seed, the Cleveland Cavaliers were 22-50.
Three years ago, they were 19-46. The Knicks were 21-45.
Their front office went to work and badly outperformed the Knicks’. No shortcuts, no skipping steps, no fake stars, just intelligent drafting and trading and scouting and evaluation and philosophy. It’s as simple as that.
Lol, still I think Mitch’s form is worse than Dudley’s. His shot is so flat that it’s possible he will one day shoot one through the bottom of the basket. That any of them go in cleanly is actually a testament to his hand-eye coordination, since there is literally no margin of error on the trajectory of his shots.
But who knows, if he put arc on his shots like Dudley, maybe he’d shoot even worse.
“Their front office went to work and badly outperformed the Knicks’.”
Maybe. Begs a question: Who here would trade rosters with the Cavs, straight up?
I wouldn’t, but I have an irrational “our guys” bias.
***The Spida Chronicles at least confirmed that stars are considering the Knicks a positive destination.***
The Spida Chronicles confirmed that players with long-term contracts and without no-trade clauses and have to consider any of the 29 possible cities as positive destinations, even Cleveland Ohio.
Strat has got to he the only dude in America that tunes into every Dallas Mavericks game just to watch the supporting cast.
It’s like going to see Chappelle perform just to watch the security guards confiscate cell phones.
I would trade rosters with the team with the #2 net rating in the NBA that doesn’t have a key rotation player over the age of 26 so, so, so fast.
I don’t disagree with either of djphan’s points. Grimes still has a ton to prove on the usage front, though I would point to Poole as an example of a guy who began his career as a lower usage 3PT gunner and then diversified his game slowly.
It’s not something I’ll really argue vociferously because as I’ve said before this is a wholly subjective opinion of mine. I think Grimes has a bit of a bag that he rarely goes into because he knows right now that being Danny Green is probably best both for himself and the team. I think we saw some glimpses of it last night–step back threes, finishing on contested drives, that kind of thing.
Re: our net rating, I definitely reserve the right to become disgruntled again if after 82 games we no longer have a net rating that indicates we’re one elite player away. But prior to the season I wouldn’t have thought we could muster 10th overall even if I knew our exact schedule, down to the injuries. Hopefully continued development from RJ and IQ can offset the regression stemming from the invisible henchman taking a break, but that’s very much TBD.
Sorry about the site going down. I just found that since the server migration, doing anything with images crashes the sql server since it can’t find/link to the old files. Should be stable now.
Adding that to the list of things to fix…
Cleveland doesn’t just have good players, they have a cohesive roster and plan that makes sense.
They’re the #1 defensive team in the league, and they accomplish this by being very good to excellent in all four of the defensive Four Factors. They play a slow, grind-it-out pace, and they hold you to a low eFG% without fouling a lot, and also generate lots of turnovers and dominate the defensive glass. Not a whole lot else you could ask for on the defensive end. Whatever Donovan Mitchell’s shortcomings are supposed to be, he has certainly not been an albatross on that end as the Cavs’ defense is literally the best in the NBA.
On offense Mitchell has been sublime, so good in fact that he seems likely to regress some. He’s bringing sky high efficiency and volume, and would probably be leading the league in scoring if the Cavs didn’t play at the slowest pace in the league. He has been a deadly force on offense.
The Cavs could still use a piece or two on the offensive end, but they already have their star player, and they also have good young players who still have upside. Garland, Mobley, and Allen are already damn good players and the oldest of those is Allen at 24.
It’s insanity to think we have a better situation than they do.
Even though I winked at the idea that his absence was, um, not exactly harmful last night, this is still a huge bummer considering he was improving and how important he is to whatever it is we’re trying to do here.
At least we should find out a lot about Quickley quickly.
To repeat: I wouldn’t trade rosters with the Cavs expressly *because* I’m irrational about basketball, loyalty, blah blah, yada yada. It’s *not* because I don’t see a valid argument that Cleveland has a better team at the moment 😉
Watched the reply and in the first quarter saw Mitch successfully posting up twice, and Douce going by people and once getting to the rim and scoring. I now predict Sims will lead the league in 3pt percentage.
The Cavs and Knicks were essentially the same team in 2018-19. Then the Cavs drafted Garland and stayed patient and did all the rest, while the Knicks drafted Barrett and went merc shopping.
Markaten was on the open market the summer of Kemba/Fournier/Noel/Rose, etc. Cavs got him; Knicks … well … didn’t. Put Markaten on the Knicks then and they have Spida now.
“It’s insanity to think we have a better situation than they do.”
Agreed. Even so, they are not a lock to even make the NBA finals any time soon. Mitchell has a player option in summer 2025. They are devoid of marketable draft picks. Their bench is clunky and once Mobley maxes out they will not have the greatest cap situation. They could lose Lavert and Love after this year and Osman after next year.
But those are first world problems to the extreme. I’d be basking in unbridled optimism as a Cav’s fan. Things are a bit more “bridled” around here, to say the least.
Insanity — but to be fair, at least honest and entirely-respectable insanity.
How do you get a finger laceration that severe on a play like that? Seems really freaky.
Yeah, RJ’s finger? Haven’t read a definitive answer. Luka’s nails? RJ’s own nails? Must have required stitches.
I’m starting to talk myself into the idea that the failed Mitchell trade had way less to do with cost. I believe Leon and Co. were dead set on snatching Brunson first and foremost. Where price probably came in was when they likely decided that the backcourt would be too small to pay that price. I mean- you’ve gotta believe that if they really wanted Mitchell, they would have been aggressive in pursuing him before they even thought of signing Brunson. In a vacuum, picking Brunson over Mitchell is a horrible idea- but signing Brunson has really paid off thus far. For all the rumors about either one of the 2 once Leon was hired, it’s kinda sad to think that Brunson was decided on first. He would have looked bad(within the family) if he traded for Mitchell and then said no to Brunson.
Still tho..I am VERY happy with Brunson. I just hope Leon can swing a trade for a star forward- either to replace Randle or RJ.
SRS for the Knicks is definitely inflated, but we also missed Mitch (who I do think is our best or near best player) and Grimes. I also think that with Thibs being the way he is, we’d have a better SRS if several of our players missed more time, e.g., RJ.
I also wonder how hurt Grimes & Jalen have been playing over the losing streak.
Grimes has had several big scoring games now. Even if he never becomes a star level player, having a guy who can get you 20 or 30 any given night is a huge boon. Plenty of players in the league can’t do that at all.
RJ has been just a smidge below league average (he’s at .574 and average is .577) efficiency since the 2nd OKC game on a 27% usage.
That’s a valuable player and a guy we need to hang onto (despite my frequent frustration with him).
Based on early returns we’re only 1 player away from contention. If we just throw all our tradable picks at a team, that’s more than enough to get a deal done. It just didn’t make sense to do that this offseason.
RJ’s injury is freaky as heck. How in the world are Luka’s nails that sharp?! And is it a case where the wound gets infected right away because it is from a dirty NBA player’s fingernails? Are we going to have to worry about MRSA and shit, like when Wilson Chandler accidentally bit a chunk of David’s Lee arm?
my take was that luka hit rjs hand into his own hand… maybe thats been disproven already…
i hate seeing all the rhetoric and hyperbole around lukas performance… quite frankly, the mavericks are wack… watching timmy and bullock brick away and the rest of their clown show simply clown, the stats have to come from someone… did he do a little extra, sure… but whatever…
we’re just really good at snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory… might be better than most teams at it… Sixers were really good at that for awhile (as I have first hand experience here in Philly … see Brett Brown and Doc Rivers)
When I feel lonely here, don’t waste my time with tears – I run ‘Deep Throat’ again; it ran for years and years. Don’t like the food I eat. The cans are running out. Same food for years and years. I hate the food I eat.
“I now predict Sims will lead the league in 3pt percentage.”
Sims took a 15 footer yesterday, and it was… not great. So maybe not anytime soon.
Although props to him for taking it.
Last night also made the limitations of Deuce glaring. He’s a huge effort guy, but the other team dares him to shoot and Dinwiddie just shot right over him for the three that cut it to a one-point game with, like, 10 seconds left. His height (or lack thereof) and his shooting (or lack thereof) are major, major issues.
As an aside, the whistle on the game-altering jump ball came waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too quickly.
Also, Wally is the weirdest fucking guy. Last night he was ripping on Luka for his celebration after hitting the game-tying shot. I mean, what in the world is your deal, Wally?
Deuce is barely an NBA player.
Thanks for taking care of the site. I’ll try to click on some more ads occasionally to get that revenue up
“I mean, we know New York is not gonna double. I love the pick and roll, I think everybody knows that. So just keep rolling the pick and roll.”
— Luka Doncic on scoring 27 of his 60 points against the Knicks in pick and roll situations
damn thibs got bbq’ed there….
There’s Klay. And that’s the dream for Grimes.
*** there really isn’t a precedent for a guy this dependent on 3pt’ers being anything more than a danny green type… THERE’S KLAY***
Klay Thompson had a 3PAr of .370 over his first 1500 minutes in the league. Grimes is at .740.
“The oldest play in basketball, the pick and roll, ” — Clyde
.740? Damn. Ok that’s high.
1. We’re not just one player away. We’re one of the 5 best players in basketball away. There’s a big difference.
2. I don’t think we can get that guy with all our picks. We need good players, too, and we can’t afford to lose any.
I am positive that there’s a certain someone on this board who believes that
A lot of us weighed in on how dumb the Kings decision was, but I was the only one to call out the chinstrap.
And as TNFH did, let us all remember how great Courtney Lee, Kyle O’Quinn and Michael Beasley were the season before the Doncic draft. May we all remember those wins fondly.
I already mentioned the droid we’re looking for. It’s Jordan Poole. His 3PAr as a 2nd year player was 58%. Grimes is at 65%.
Poole is still above 50%, but it seems like he may have some 20 PPG, 60% TS seasons in him. If Grimes could do that with his defense, he’d be a stud.
Djphan is absolutely right though that it’s rare for astronomical 3PAr guys to go on to be able to carry heavier usage efficiently.
If you wanted to be an irrational Knicks fan, though not quite irrational enough to say you prefer our situation to the Cavs’, you’d argue a player well-positioned to break the trend would be a guy who was a top recruit, failed to live up to those expectations initially, re-made his game to ensure NBA success, and then slowly reintegrated aspects of being The Man back into his game.
*** I wonder how Atlanta fans will feel in 2024 when Doncic is shortlisted for MVP–***
Well Jowles, you can wait two more years to ask them, or you can call them up now. Your choice.
Make it so, Noble. Be the (irrational) bellwether 😉
the problem isn’t just the 3par…. 3par is just a metric…. the problem is the reason why it’s so high… and if you combine with the assisted fg% and the usage.. you begin to see the make up of the way Grimes does what he does and how Poole does it ..
Poole has above the break pullups in his repertoire as well as handling the ball quite often…. he creates a lot of his own shots and he is dribbling the ball… Grimes might have 5-10 dribbles in an entire night….
and Poole has been doing that since college…. for Poole it just so happens he shoots a lot of 3s… for Grimes it’s a necessity…. and i have serious doubts about Poole’s growth but his trajectory is much different than Grimes solely because of the fact that he has a track record of creating his own shot at moderate usage…. Grimes had this problem in college too which was why ordinarily you might see upperclassmen start taking it to the rack and create more.. but Grimes was doing the pullup from everywhere thing when he should’ve been getting his own shot at ease… his upside was always going to be pretty limited because of that….
that’s why guys like that are bad usage of first rd picks…. there’s not much separating him from cam reddish and you can get cam reddish this offseason for around grimes salary…. Grimes can maaaybe be a bit more and right now is better than Cam.. but if his 3pt% is 34% instead of 37 he starts looking just as terrible….
“Grimes might have 5-10 dribbles in an entire night….”
Yeah, agree and totally get the point, but that’s why last night was so interesting. With RJ out unexpectedly, everyone sort of looked around confused for a bit, then Grimes started his career night. He was naturally overshadowed by the loss and by Luka, but Grimes tried to step up and basically succeeded. If you look closely, he was a bit of a deer in headlights at times, but he also had some legit moves to the basket that he finished well and/or made dishes to Mitch. Now with RJ gone for a week, we get to practice that idea and do it for real. I don’t want RJ injured by any means, of course, but we’ve got a week long experiment with Grimes (and IQ) that Thibs should make good use of.
PS — The Post has a bunch of quotes up from E4 and Cam being good sports about having DNPs while the other guys basically ran marathons against Dallas, so the next few Knick games will be must see TV. Who plays? And how?
PPS — I don’t know Poole’s game well at all, but the two elements from Grimes that keep me on the hook are his passing and his movement without the ball. I honestly think Thibs loves him bc Grimes naturally does the things Thibs cannot teach. The crazy irrational dream is Klay-lite.
Rumor has it Grimes is watching this video on repeat until the next game 😉
Watching Villanova vs uconn…there is another arciacanado on Villanova…I wonder if we signed him to a futures contract yet…so we corner the Market on those guys…
Yeah, I mean the idea is that sky-high 3PAr is a proxy for not being able to do much else offensively and in most cases I think that’s true. I just happen to think Grimes has some creation juice he’s wisely decided to shelf for the time being.
But it’s nothing more than a hunch combined with armchair scouting, so we’ll just have to see. I do think you’re either underrating Grimes or overrating the expected ROI on the #25 pick if you think he wasn’t worth that pick though…
That just shows how the game is different today. The Knicks, like many teams these days, take almost no midrange shots. In 2013, teams took lots more mid range shots and I’m sure Klay did too.
TNFH, I posted my comment before reading to the bottom and seeing yours. Grimes was definitely worth the #25 pick. And, my point about 3 point attempt rate kind of fits with yours. Grimes could have other capabilities, but probably wasn’t asked to use them in Thibs’ offense, so we didn’t see them. With Barrett out, maybe we will see more of them.
NBA.COM used to have an advanced boxscore link where you could see who guarded who for how many minutes in a game and a few stats on how they did. I had it bookmarked, but they must have changed it and I can’t find it anywhere.
Does anyone have the new bookmark?
Great thread. Love it when Jowles goes into the archive. I think I peaked as a Knickblogger in that thread. Which was at about 85% of JK47.
Thibs is so metal. Not giving Fournier a single minute is just insane commitment to the bit.I think I am actually growing fond of him in a way that bothers me.
Wow, that is an epic thread. PT has been on the Meltwagon from the start.
Actually a terrific team performance from the board. Having been abjectly horrible for five years really had us blogging at a Tier 1 level.
Also, I enjoyed this Bol Bol highlight. Something beautiful and strange about it.
“Strat has got to he the only dude in America that tunes into every Dallas Mavericks game just to watch the supporting cast.
It’s like going to see Chappelle perform just to watch the security guards confiscate cell phones.”
When I watch games I’m half scout and half fan. I’m trying to determine which skills and weaknesses each player has, how they fit together on that team, what’s missing etc… I’m using over 50 years of watching games to inform my opinions on what works, what doesn’t work, what wins, what wins during the season but not in the playoffs, etc… I think part of that comes from gambling. When you are gambling you are always looking for things other people may be missing hoping to uncover the rare nugget that leads to EV+ bet. I don’t have to know everything about everything. I just have to know one thing that other people that may be smarter than me haven’t figured out yet.
Technically he’s been an All-NBA 1st Teamer since 2020, which I think qualifies, so I was four years off.
My god, the Mavs are lucky as hell. How the hell do you stumble upon a generational talent at #3 the same year that your last generational talent just finished his 20-year career?
re: Bol Bol, that guy will always have a place in the league so long as he’s healthy. That’s just absurd.
I’ve mentioned it before, but I went to a Ducks game when he was on the roster — injured, in a walking cast — and I stood next to him within arm’s reach. He’s so tall that it seems like he’s an alien. I know we’ve all been to Knicks games and seen very tall men. Ewing sure was one. But there’s something about 7’2″ that just feels impossible, especially with his frame.
“Then we started playing teams that were NOT missing their star players, and that didn’t goink
Our SRS is a bit inflated. Not hugely inflated, but a lil’ bit.”
I agree with this take.
Back in the days I was gambling, I was using the exact same spreadsheet used to calculate SRS, but added in a few features. One was a home/away adjustment that took each team’s home advantage into account (it also varies for city to city).
I made estimates for each team’s main player’s value based on how much the betting lines changed when they missed a game and what my own data was saying. Then I built those adjustments into the SRS rating every time any major player was missing from any team.
But we have to keep in mind, the Knicks were also missing Mitch and Grimes for a lot of games and both played at subpar levels for awhile.
Half of me wishes I still did all that work and could tell you what my data was saying about our true SRS, but I do about 25 hours of work every week on horse racing and I just don’t have time for both.
*** That just shows how the game is different today.***
I think it shows more than that. We are talking about the guy who, along with his teammate, literally changed the game to what it is today. And even during the transformation, when he doubled his 3pt attempts, he was still at a .450 3PTr (vs Grimes’ current .650). Klay Thompson was a more dynamic scorer than anything Grimes has displayed thus far.
Zion scored the Pelicans final 14 points in a 1 point win. Wish I’d watched that.
“I do think you’re either underrating Grimes or overrating the expected ROI on the #25 pick if you think he wasn’t worth that pick though…”
i’m not sure if you’re old enough to remember.. but one year al davis drafted sebastian janikowski … a field goal kicker.. in the first rd… IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIRST RD #17 in fact… and janikowski turned out to be a pretty decent kicker all things considered probably maybe hall of fame worthy… and besides shaun alexander who had a couple good years.. everyone else in the first round kind of sucked after that…
but that’s STILL lampooned as one of the worst picks of all time because you can get kickers off the literal street….
now the Grimes pick is not on that level but you should get the sense of what i’m talking about… 3pt specialists are freely availablle in the nba… donte divencenzo would be making a pretty darn good grimes impression now.. probably better in fact… and he signed for 2 / 9… bruce brown 2/13.. delon wright 2/16… lonnie walker 1/6..
and how likely is Grimes going to be better than any one of them? that’s the problem…. maybe you ‘miss’ and pick a guy like jaden springer (who wouldn’t be a miss yet but argument’s sake)…. the kind of front office that misses with jaden springer maybe/probably doesn’t miss with hali.. and that’s why we have the collection of youth that we have and why we are ALL hung up on the upside of it all despite the embarrassment of draft picks that we had…
this front office’s problem is that it thinks so narrowly about all of its opportunities.. it’s like they act like the sixers or bucks where all they need is to top off the roster… when you really need to figure out how to get top flight talent… maybe that’s too risky for them… but what they’re doing now is even riskier… and the proof is in the pudding… not taking enough risks before is going to lead them to take much more risk and a much higher price when it’s all said and done… and that’s the problem with their mentality and strategy….
“But there’s something about 7’2″ that just feels impossible, especially with his frame.”
Just wait til 7’6” Wemby gets to town.
Here’s the thing, Grimes has already shown he has a higher ceiling than all the guys you mentioned.
Zero of the players you mentioned have ever scored 33 points in a single game during their entire careers. Grimes did it in his first 70.
Donte DiVincenzo has never scored as many points in a single game as Grimes put up in his first NBA start. Bruce Brown exceeded that total just once.
Zero of the players you mentioned have a TS% over .600 this season. Grimes does.
Maybe they’re better on defense than Grimes or have other skills, I don’t watch them often enough to say, but they just flat out haven’t shown the scoring potential that Grimes has shown.
DJphan, I would add to Early Bird’s comment that if competent three point shooters were so readily available, the Lakers would not have the roster they have.
Zion and Erling Harland both living up to their billings in spectacular fashion.
The Zion – Ja debate has moved into a new phase it would appear