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Knicks Morning News (2022.12.14)

  • How to watch Knicks vs. Bulls: TV channel, live stream, time for Wednesday NBA game – Sporting News
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 14, 2022 5:00:03 AM

    How to watch Knicks vs. Bulls: TV channel, live stream, time for Wednesday NBA game  Sporting News

  • New York Knicks vs Chicago Bulls Predictions, Best Bets, Odds – World Sports Network
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 14, 2022 4:16:45 AM

    New York Knicks vs Chicago Bulls Predictions, Best Bets, Odds  World Sports Network

  • NBA Tuesday parlay at mega (+1021) odds, today 12/14 – Pickswise
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 11:06:00 PM

    NBA Tuesday parlay at mega (+1021) odds, today 12/14  Pickswise

  • Knicks’ DaQuan Jeffries: Efficient scoring despite loss – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 9:57:48 PM

    Knicks’ DaQuan Jeffries: Efficient scoring despite loss  CBS Sports

  • Jalen Johnson: Struggles in Knicks debut – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 9:48:20 PM

    Jalen Johnson: Struggles in Knicks debut  CBS Sports

  • Knicks’ Julius Randle admits technical foul ‘relapse’ was ‘selfish’ – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 6:31:00 PM

    Knicks’ Julius Randle admits technical foul ‘relapse’ was ‘selfish’  New York Post Knicks’ Julius Randle on his current physical state  ClutchPointsJulius Randle’s efficiency has the Knicks soaring: ‘He’s going crazy. He’s hooping’  The AthleticKnicks Get Nicked But Dethrone Kings For Fourth Win in a Row  Sports IllustratedKnicks’ Julius Randle ejected after arguing with referee over a no-call vs. Kings  Yahoo SportsView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Why the Knicks shouldn’t go after Zach LaVine, who they are reportedly watching – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 5:59:37 PM

    Why the Knicks shouldn’t go after Zach LaVine, who they are reportedly watching  Posting and Toasting

  • Latest injury news increases chances of Knicks facing Victor Wembanyama in East – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 5:00:00 PM

    Latest injury news increases chances of Knicks facing Victor Wembanyama in East  Daily Knicks

  • How to Watch Westchester Knicks at Long Island Nets: Stream NBA G League Live, TV Channel – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 4:00:00 PM

    How to Watch Westchester Knicks at Long Island Nets: Stream NBA G League Live, TV Channel  Sports Illustrated

  • Bulls list Alex Caruso probable, Ayo Dosunmu questionable vs. Knicks – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 3:20:35 PM

    Bulls list Alex Caruso probable, Ayo Dosunmu questionable vs. Knicks  Yahoo Sports

  • Jalen Brunson Injury: Have Knicks Avoided the Worst? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 2:50:49 PM

    Jalen Brunson Injury: Have Knicks Avoided the Worst?  Sports IllustratedKnicks hope Jalen Brunson won’t miss time as injury diagnosis changes  New York Post Tom Thibodeau updates Jalen Brunson’s injury status after Knicks PG exits victory against Kings  Yahoo SportsKnicks News: Jalen Brunson injury update, Cam Reddish trade market revealed  Daily KnicksReport: Knicks PG Jalen Brunson questionable to play in Chicago with contused right foot  Empire Sports MediaView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Knicks’ Ryan Arcidiacono: Unlikely to play Wednesday – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 1:22:42 PM

    Knicks’ Ryan Arcidiacono: Unlikely to play Wednesday  CBS Sports

  • Los Angeles Lakers, New York Knicks talked Patrick Beverley trade – Sportsnaut
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 12:47:19 PM

    Los Angeles Lakers, New York Knicks talked Patrick Beverley trade  SportsnautThe Market Price for Knicks Forward Cam Reddish  Blazer’s EdgeWhy Knicks CAA ties could land blossoming star via trade  Daily KnicksReddish, Rose Sit For Knicks; What’s Blooming?  Sports IllustratedKnicks have talked Cam Reddish, Evan Fournier trade with Lakers  New York Post View Full Coverage on Google News

  • Rumors: Lakers, Knicks, John Collins, Bojan Bogdanovic, Free Agency – Hoops Hype
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 10:33:50 AM

    Rumors: Lakers, Knicks, John Collins, Bojan Bogdanovic, Free Agency  Hoops Hype

  • Knicks’ Julius Randle was nominated for Eastern Conference Player of The Week – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 10:25:17 AM

    Knicks’ Julius Randle was nominated for Eastern Conference Player of The Week  Empire Sports Media

  • From the Boston Celtics to New York Knicks, ranking every team’s shooting and why it matters – The Athletic
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, December 13, 2022 8:55:55 AM

    From the Boston Celtics to New York Knicks, ranking every team’s shooting and why it matters  The Athletic

  • 116 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.12.14)”

    My company had its holiday party last night, the first time we did it since 2019. I went because I wanted to see everybody (some of whom I also haven’t seen since before the pandemic). But I’m also kind of terrible at making small talk — or, at least, initiating small talk — so parties can be dicey for me. At this one, I discovered that the secret to getting through conversations with the people I didn’t know as well was to bring up your New York Knickerbockers. It turns out one of my editors grew up with Robert Silverman! I met a Cam Reddish stan (who was a guest of a coworker) who is furious that the team is not giving him a shot! Several people love RJ! And I just nodded and smiled a bunch. A good time was had by all.

    I would be disappointed if they traded Reddish, I like watching his fast hands on D. Between him and Grimes, opposing wings have to be extra cautious with the ball.

    If I were Rose and co., I’d be very interested in that rumored deal of Fournier for Nunn and Black AF1’s. But to do that, we’d either have to find a feasible 2 for 1 trade involving Rose and Cam(since they’re out of the rotation anyway), or move one of those guys for a pick. It would be very interesting to see if Pat Bev could play his way into the rotation or to see he and Deuce out there together in spurts. Depending on how well Deuce continues to play, I might even be ok with that rumored trade of Quickley for a 1st if we had Pat Bev on the bench. MIGHT lol

    Poindexter, if it’s a matter of rostering two Lakers while only sending out Fournier, couldn’t we just cut Ryan Arcidiacono? Even temporarily while the roster sorts itself out?

    Yeah reading general comments on FB Knicks threads, etc…there are a lot of people PISSED right now that Cam is out of the rotation and we might trade him.

    I feel like here people will only be upset if we trade him and don’t get anything back bc it will bring back up incineration discussions again. But people won’t be that upset about CAM himself being traded. When I bring up salary cap implications of resigning him or how moving him could help us unload Fournier, his injuries and inconsistent play, etc…I usually just get met with “YEAH BUT HE’S A BEAST” or “Last time we traded players to a Lebron team we helped him win a title.” (seriously, I’ve heard this argument multiple times as a reason not to trade him to the Lakers).

    No way I trade IQ. Sorry. But we gotta figure out a way to get rid of Fournier, Rose and Cam so we can hold on to IQ. He is a fantastic player and his shot will become more consistent.

    Alan-
    I forgot about Archie. Shit we can send him out in that deal too can’t we?

    Also, Pat Beverly is washed. I liked him a few years ago but his schtick is getting old and he’s not that good anymore. I’d look to cut him if we took him back or if Rose goes out, Pat Bev can be the emergency third string point guard but I would be wary of keeping him because I don’t want Thibs to have him supplant McBride in the rotation. I don’t think Thibs would do that but you never know.

    The Knicks earned themselves a segment on Windhorst’s pod this morning. Everyone was still skeptical we’re more than a .500ish team, but were impressed with our defense nonetheless.

    Some tidbits worth nothing:

    -Windhorst says we are by no means desperate to unload salary, which makes sense given the paucity of free agent options and the fact that we’d have to unload a ton to open up real space anyway. In other words, obviously we’re quite open to moving Fournier and/or Cam but we’re not looking to attach an asset to do it.

    -Marc Spears, who knows Julius Randle well from his time in NOLA, seemed to allude to some potential unhappiness in NY in a “I can’t say anything explicitly but I’ve heard some things” kind of way. Or maybe that was just my stupid interpretation of a banal comment.

    Not sure I see the point of that Fournier/Reddish for Beverly/Nunn swap. I have no illusions about Fournier’s value on his contract, but I mean, the guy can play NBA basketball.

    I have no problem doing him a solid by trading him somewhere he’d be in the rotation, but since the cap space doesn’t do anything for us it’s not the kind of trade that advances any of our own goals. Beverly and Nunn do nothing for us, I’d probably just waive both of them.

    It never occurred to me that fans might feel that way about Reddish. He does nice things occasionally but they are not spectacular. I don’t get why the love for him.

    I have mixed feelings about trading him because he seems like he progressing towards competency as tall wing, which is not such an easy player to get. But there must be something in his attitude or work habits that Thibs and others aren’t happy with. Because he has potential I want to get something back, not jus relief from Reddish’s salary.

    Yeah, it may be a boring story, but I think our FO likes our team for the short term. E4 is prolly too nice to complain. Cam could/should complain b/c he’s basically playing for his next paycheck, but our FO prolly doesn’t care. DRose is prolly fine banking the money and being a good practice guy. Obi is hurt. The other kids are getting their chances. I don’t see a trade in the near future.

    I have said this many times but I still can’t believe how much attention Cam Reddish gets. It’s crazy. The divergence between production and perception has always been one of the most interesting things about the NBA. The way for instance that first round draft pick status has clear benefits independent of performance.

    If we can trade him for something useful great but I agree Beverly is cooked. And annoying.

    Pat’s major value to me right now is that he comprises, with Lou Williams, half of the perfect comp for IQ.

    It never occurred to me that fans might feel that way about Reddish. He does nice things occasionally but they are not spectacular. I don’t get why the love for him.

    There is a rather sizable — or, at least, vocal — Cam Hive elsewhere on the interwebs. When I listen to the Macri postgame podcasts, there are always at least a half dozen questions from people upset that Cam is out of the rotation, convinced he’s awesome, etc. The guy at the party last night just feels like he hasn’t been given a fair shake at all.

    But it is, as Owen says, a perception thing. Cam was a star recruit out of high school. He played alongside Zion and RJ at Duke, and even though he was pretty terrible at Duke, he still had that top prospect shine, and he still had all of those measurables. And even though he’s been pretty terrible in the NBA, he still has the pedigree, and he will occasionally have a game or stretch of games that convinces people, “Oh, if we could only just harness Good Cam like in that one playoff game!” When the whole thing about Cam is that he’s just not focused enough (at least right now) to become Good Cam full-time.

    I’d take the risk on Cam Reddish’s future before I’d settle for Quentin Grimes’s. No question about it.

    If the team wasn’t in purgatory, there might be an argument to settle for the niche guy and I might even be amenable — but that’s not this team.

    Will be at the Bulls game tonight, before heading back to NY for the remainder of the year tomorrow. If I somehow appear on TV (I bought cheap seats) you can find me by finding the guy with dark brown hair, a moderate mustache, and a Knicks jacket.

    I think it’s because Cam is a good-looking guy, maybe? LOL. But also, he has that ideal star wing size/length, like a young Paul George.

    But yeah, anyone who thinks he’s a BEAST isn’t watching the games.

    Also, just his attitude that he’s definitely a star in the making but has no secondary skills (passing, rebounding, team defense, etc.) is sort of a turn off.

    That said, he’s the only guy out of our rotation who has value to other teams, so I hope there’s a bidding war for him that ends in a 1st for us.

    I’d love to trade Rose and Fournier for their sake, but if we can’t without attaching a pick then forget it. They’ll just have to wait til next year to play.

    (Virtually) everyone on the board saw Cam’s defense on the perimeter once he got rolling and was into it, so let’s not start up the hamster-wheel revisionist machine.

    They probably played him to showcase him, which is stupid but at least explanatory.

    -Marc Spears, who knows Julius Randle well from his time in NOLA, seemed to allude to some potential unhappiness in NY in a “I can’t say anything explicitly but I’ve heard some things” kind of way. Or maybe that was just my stupid interpretation of a banal comment.

    I’d love to see the context of that. What could Randle possibly not be happy about?

    Also, just want to say that I thoroughly enjoyed reading the discussion yesterday about education in this country. When this blog veers off topic into topics like that, you get to see just how smart and thoughtful the individuals on this blog are. I wish I could have contributed to the discussion yesterday. But alas, was very busy at work yesterday.

    The biggest takeaway for me. If this country was truly serious about educating our children, we would hire a ton more teachers and lower the size of classes at all levels. That seems like the one area where everyone would agree but, of course, it would cost a lot of money. But spending money on new buildings, the latest computer technology, charter schools, etc…seems like a waste when what we really need are more teachers and smaller classrooms.

    Taking Cam over Grimes seems unfathomable to me. But when you look at the numbers, well, I guess its definitely arguable.

    I often get the sense that Cam is going through the motions while Grimes always seems to be in motion. Grimes just seems really smart about how he plays the game. Cam……does not.

    So I have my biases too and can’t really criticize the Cam Hive.

    At least with Grimes, there isn’t the same hype to contend with.

    I’d be more surprised about how vociferous the Cam Hive was if I hadn’t read and heard so much anguish about a guy now racking up DNP-CDs in favor of Josh Green and the basketball player formerly known as Kemba Walker.

    There are some folks who will never, ever re-evaluate the very first opinion they ever form about a guy.

    “I’d take the risk on Cam Reddish’s future before I’d settle for Quentin Grimes’s. No question about it.”

    I cannot fathom this. The funny thing is if it’s about Reddish’s pedigree, Quentin Grimes was also a top 10 recruit! The difference is Grimes seemingly worked hard on becoming a productive player when it became clear the whole alpha thing wasn’t gonna work.

    Cam Reddish is much like Frank Ntilikina and just like any crushes… they really only exist as ideas than anything real….

    they will show enough in some thin slice to tantalize the senses and maybe in one or two highlight reels he’ll look similar enough to an nba player… but what makes nba players nba players is consistency… doing something over and over again over the competition is an advantage… doing so once or twice is luck…

    Cam is really close to be an ok bench/role player but he needs consistency on his 3pt shot which for whatever reason he tanks his own %s by putting up ill advised pull ups…. if he restricts himself to catch and shoot and he’s probably a 36% or better…. his future is to turn himself into an approximation of Trevor Ariza… i imagine he gets there eventually with how he’s progressing but i doubt it’s here….

    Taking Cam over Grimes seems unfathomable to me.

    ********************

    Seriously? I’m very curious. You honestly watch the games and that’s what you think? I mean, Quentin Grimes can’t even get to the rim and shoot the ball and Cam Reddish is terrific getting there in the open floor. That’s just for starters.

    “I often get the sense that Cam is going through the motions while Grimes always seems to be in motion. ”

    Yes, Quentin Grimes definitely gives off Johnny Hustle vibes and Cam Reddish does not. The relevance of that ceases in like, what … junior year high school? Sophomore year college? It has no relevance in association play. Obviously Cam Reddish is trying, or else he wouldn’t have been able to guard the perimeter as well as we all saw him doing.

    “Grimes just seems really smart about how he plays the game. Cam……does not. ”

    Guys who don’t have the athletic talent to do very much typically look “smarter” because, well, they don’t try to do very much. Yes, Cam Reddish tries to do too much, but he was clearly eliminating a lot of that from his game. Cam Reddish is actually pretty savvy in things like getting in the passing lanes and reading action.

    I cannot fathom this.

    And I cannot fathom its unfathomability! Vive la difference, I guess.

    Quentin Grimes has a 12.6% usage rate and everyone thinks any deviation from their impression of his “true baseline” is because of his foot or “finding his rhythm” or a bunch of other things. But that’s nonsense.

    In terms of his pedigree, he was a top 10 recruit who washed out and transferred. That’s not really a factor, though.

    “The biggest takeaway for me. If this country was truly serious about educating our children, we would hire a ton more teachers and lower the size of classes at all levels. ”

    you’d be excited to here that Kathy Hochul signed a classroom size bill this past fall which will cap classroom sizes……

    and nyc spends the most(or close to it i forget) per student in the nation…. and we get ok outcomes… but education is one of those things where more money doesn’t always give you better outcomes… teachers and textbooks can only do so much…. and what really matters is taking away the negative influences…. failing infrastructure… large class sizes… unqualified teachers.. disruptive students.. money helps in that regard but you can see how you can get diminishing returns fairly quickly…

    Combining both topics, Cam always makes me feel like Scottie’s mother Jean in Fargo.

    Jean: I’m talkin’ about your potential.
    Scott: (absently) Un-huh.
    Jean: You’re not a C student.
    Scott: Uhn
    Jean: And yet you’re gettin C grades. It’s this disparity there that concerns your dad and me.
    Scott: Uh-huh.
    Jean: You know what a disparity is?
    Scott: (testily) Yeah!

    Re: Cam, i was hoping we could do the typical reclamation project trade. We give Cam to some team that still believes in him, and they give us a player they no longer believe for us to try him out.
    Would Cleveland want Cam in exchange for Okoro? Okoro has been pretty bad too. And there’s probably more players in the same situation as Okoro to try and make a swap.

    Love for the classroom cap size bill. It’s down to 20 for K-3. I wish it was 15.

    At a previous public school, the PTA raised money for TAs in each class to bring the student/teacher ratio down to 15. Obvs not all public schools can raise this cash — and this spending is its own political hot button — but that number seems to get the job done better. Private schools routinely average 10-15 students/teacher. I’ve never read any research that contradicts the benefits of smaller classes.

    My sixth grader is taking “advanced algebra” with 33 classmates parked in a temporary trailer outside his school. It’s a thing.

    You guys would do a deep dive into grade school education and specialized high school testing on the day I’m focused at work because of the Last Chance U premiere 😉

    As a Black Stuy High grad, I would think I would have more to offer to that discussion than what’s rattling around in my head right now. The year I graduated ’95, there were 150 African American students there out of 3000 total (5%), and the first thing I asked myself when I found out the numbers was “Where are the other 100?” – I knew around 50 Black students and I swore at the time that’s all there were (lol).

    I’m not sure I understand the constant citations to Grimes’ USG% without any other context. Would Grimes be a better player if he turned the ball over more?

    Grimes and Reddish have both been low usage guys this year. There’s basically no material difference in their offensive burdens–5 FGM per-36 for Cam vs 4.2 for Grimes.

    The difference is Grimes’ TS+ is 101 and trending up while Reddish could only manage 97.

    The citation to the ability to get to the rim also strikes me as strange. Grimes is finishing 76% of his shots at the rim while Reddish is at 64%, and no, there’s not a huge volume difference. Grimes takes 35% of his shots at the rim with Reddish at 44%.

    Defensively, I suppose Reddish can be deployed against bigger wings while Grimes would probably struggle in that context, but if we’re citing the eye-test, I’ve been more impressed by Grimes’ defense overall. He doesn’t have to hang his hat on “flashes” of defensive intensity, he’s pretty much just always doing what he’s supposed to do.

    The sample is too small to be meaningful, but it’s not like there’s any hard data in Killa Cam’s favor here either. Reddish has made our defense 8.5 PTS/100 worse while Grimes has made it 3.4 PTS/100 better.

    E – I agree I am making subjective judgments and that summary statistics don’t suggest there is a vast difference between them at the moment.

    I think Grimes plays better defense and simply based on watching him play, I think he has a brighter future. Also, he has played 3000+ less minutes in the NBA than Cam so I have that wiggle room.

    Cam played a few games this year where I sat up and took notice in game threads and praised him after. He played really well. And then he went out and had some outings where he just seemed completely disengaged and apathetic and possibly hungover or hallucinatory.

    I have never watched Grimes for a second and had that thought.

    Anyway, we will see how it turns out. Maybe neither of them ends up being a difference maker. It’s absolutely fair to say that Grimes hasn’t hit enough from three yet to project him as an above average player. His rate is actually down yoy.

    from what i remember of yesterdays thread and now cdiggy mentioning it, it seems like a few of the folks here attended Stuyvesant High School…

    i’m not familiar with it, looked it up…that seems like a very special place that can have a really big on its students…

    Yeah it’s not like Cam is a high usage guy either. Cam is a low-usage player with below average efficiency who doesn’t chip in at all with rebounds and rarely passes the ball. Cam averages 2.5 rebounds and 1.6 assists per 36, and those are numbers you accumulate merely by standing around on the floor.

    There are times when Cam really looks good by the eye test: he can pull off a slick Euro step from time to time, and has the long arms on defense and makes some plays on that end. But he gives a lot of that back by making dumb plays, and at the end of the day all of his contributions don’t really add up to much. He probably deserves more playing time than he’s getting here, but the team’s recent stretch of good play hasn’t coincided with Cam getting big minutes.

    It’s absolutely fair to say that Grimes hasn’t hit enough from three yet to project him as an above average player.

    *************************

    Honestly, I don’t even see him right now as the Tier 5 The Athletic has him at, though I do think he’ll get there. He’s just very low-ceiling, unathletic, and my time in getting excited about competent role players, especially Johnny Hustle types, given this team and its current place in the association cosmos, is pretty much expired. It really doesn’t even have anything to do with Cam Reddish; Cam Reddish is just an archetype example to prove the bigger point. (On TNFH’s stats, there’s a difference between “taking a shot at the rim” and “getting to the rim.” Big difference.)

    If he makes the team marginally better than Joe Shlabotnik or Pete Bag-o-Donuts, it’s not even something I care about. I read what you guys say about it, and I’m happy if you’re happy about that marginal improvement, and I’m not even sure there’s actual “disagreement,” but to me it’s kind of definitional “meh.”

    Maybe that helps explain my perspective.

    Hustle is always a skill in basketball even at the pro level. Defense is like 90% hustle, otherwise RJ & Randle might actually be good defenders.

    Grimes is doubling Cam’s rebs/36. Again, a hustle stat.

    Of all stats a guy walking in off the street could potentially accumulate it’s most likely a rebound because there’s a chance it bounces right to him. Over Cam’s last 63 minutes spread over 4 games, Cam grabbed one 1 rebound.

    Keep it comin’ love Keep it comin’ love Don’t stop it now, don’t stop it no Don’t stop it now, don’t stop it Keep it comin’ love Keep it comin’ love Don’t stop it now, don’t stop it no Don’t stop it now, don’t stop it

    maybe grimes’ true value lay in those secret nba player synergy stats…

    wait, what’s the debate…

    The infatuation with Cam among fans is entirely about talent you can see that hasn’t translated into efficient and effective production yet.

    I’ve said this before.

    He can do things on the court to score that none of the other Knicks players can do.

    That kind of talent can eventually translate into high production, but it’s a double edged sword. The more things a young player can do, the more things a young player will try. In Cam’s case, a lot of the things he tries are ridiculously over the line.

    So basically there are two groups.

    Those that look at the reality of his production now (which has been improving but not particularly good) and those that see what it could be if he uses his talents intelligently, works really hard on his game, and plays hard on both sides of the court.

    The other aspect of it is the trade itself.

    If you are going to take a flier on a player like this using even a mediocre 1st rounder, you should at least be on the same page with the coach. Thibs didn’t want him, held him out until there were injuries, and then he got injured himself. He gave him a better shot this year and he was playing well until he got hurt again and lost his spot. Then he was tossed overboard again. The entire episode was a failure between the coach and front office and cost us an asset that we could have used later for a trade. If we get nothing back for him because we use him to move Fournier that would add insult to injury.

    Just to be clear, there could be things going on behind the scenes that I don’t know about that explain why he wound up in the doghouse in Atlanta and now in NY, but it isn’t talent.

    Other reasons to move Cam:

    (1) He’s off his rookie deal after this year

    (2) There’s little chance he makes the rotation

    (3) Keeping salary down makes retaining IQ & Obi more palatable

    (4) He’ll remain disgruntled in the bench

    (5) We theoretically have 2 more rookies coming next year, potentially more in Rokas, the Wizards pick, & Jean Montero

    —————————

    PS not sure Cam actually is more athletic than Grimes, or at least not functionally. Grimes looks faster to me, Reddish is just smooth with great hangtime.

    PPS Cam might’ve transferred too had he stayed. He was awful at Duke.

    Yeah, what Early Bird said. I don’t think Cam is more “athletic” than Grimes. He’s just taller and longer but also plays a different position. Cam certainly doesn’t get over screens better.

    I actually think Grimes looks pretty athletic. At any rate, we will likely know by the end of the year which way the arrow is pointing for Grimes.

    I can see both see both sides of the Cam Grimes debate. If we had the Lakers roster, window and coach, I would want Cam. But with this roster, potential window and Thibs as likely coach this year and next, I want Grimes.

    Okay, 1 more point for trading Cam. We have at least 13 rotation worthy players (Svi could potentially be a 14th). It wasn’t long ago that an active roster could only carry 12 players. There’s no reason to carry that many rotation level players.

    “PS not sure Cam actually is more athletic than Grimes, or at least not functionally. Grimes looks faster to me, Reddish is just smooth with great hangtime.”

    Co-sign. “Athletic” is kind of a meaningless term with no clear definition, but honestly if I had to pick I would say Grimes is more athletic. Cam’s flashes seem more finesse based.

    “Those that look at the reality of his production now (which has been improving but not particularly good) and those that see what it could be if he uses his talents intelligently, works really hard on his game, and plays hard on both sides of the court.”

    Everyone is aware of the theoretical possibility Cam could be better if he did less dumb stuff. Some people just think 1) he’s had a long time to cut out the dumb stuff and hasn’t done so and 2) even if he cuts out the dumb stuff, the player that would emerge still isn’t worth getting excited about–again, his half-decent production this year was a function of him *lowering* his usage. We’re not risking trading away Paul George here. Harrison Barnes is probably his 100th percentile outcome at this point.

    I could see thinking Cam is a better asset than Grimey if you’re low on Grrimes relative to the median opinion and high on Cam relative to the median opinion. I understand why most of us love Grimes–he hustles, generally makes the right play, and is just kind of savvy–but he is pretty offensively limited to pull-ups and straight line drives to the basket when the ball swings to him.

    Cam, on the other hand, has a bag of sorts–different ways of doing things to get his points–but he’s a disengaged kind of guy and his IQ is simply not good even when he’s locked in. He’s also got no secondary skills to speak of, whereas Grimes is at least notionally good at passing and can grab a rebound. Also, I think Grimes is in fact more defensively impactful, even when they’re both playing at full intensity–Cam dies on a ton of screens and gambles too much. Grimes is more workmanlike and generates fewer high leverage plays (i.e. steals), but he always seems to be in the right place, and just makes things harder, and that’s huge for a defense, especially when you’re a wing.

    I don’t think there’s much ‘there’ there with Cam, to be honest. He’s a flash in the pan kind of guy, and this team needs consistency, which Grimes represents. I don’t think the value of having a consistent, league-average rotation guy who can play both ends of the floor should be understated–every team needs these guys and they often cost a bit in trades or free agency, because of their versatility. So, while I can see the optimistic case for Cam (especially if you’re considering his tippy-top tier outcome), I think he’s deservedly the one getting shopped right now.

    Re: athleticism, here’s a pre-draft scouting report of a certain player who is very good at basketball:

    Weaknesses: Far below NBA standard in regard to explosivenes and athleticism … At 6-2, he’s extremely small for the NBA shooting guard position … Although he’s playing point guard this year, he’s not a natural point guard that an NBA team can rely on to run a team … Can overshoot and rush into shots from time to time … Hasn’t had to deal with getting benched due to poor performance (shooting) which has allowed him to shoot through any slumps. Will have to adjust to not being a volume shooter which could have an effect on his effectiveness … Not a great finisher around the basket due to his size and physical attributes …

    I’m sure you can guess the player

    E’s consistent referencing of The Athletic’s NBA Player Tiers is very funny. Reminds me of the NBA guys on reddit a decade ago that would bring up Bill Simmon’s annual Trade Value column to make their arguments. Cousin Sal isn’t a fan Quentin Grimes and we’re supposed to pretend it means something.

    >Everyone is aware of the theoretical possibility Cam could be better if he did less dumb stuff. Some people just think 1) he’s had a long time to cut out the dumb stuff and hasn’t done so<

    I think some people are giving him some benefit of the doubt because he's been injured so much. IMO, some people here underrate the impact of injuries on development and on court performance even when the player comes back. Sometimes they are fine, sometimes it takes a week and sometimes months to get back to 100% depending on the injury and length of the layoff and player. It all counts in the stats, but those stats don't describe what the player can actually do when healthy.

    The other thing is that he is actually improving his PPP despite all the setbacks.

    I agree we aren't talking about Paul George here, but to toss him overboard after giving up a pick makes no sense. Grimes belongs in front of him now anyway. That’s not a debate in my mind. But there's some shot he eventually winds up being a better player than RJ if he actually works as hard as RJ.

    I grew up in CT and bounced around a ton of schools largely due to depression and undiagnosed (until recently) ADHD despite seeing a dozen or so therapists & psychiatrists over a 20 year span.

    In second grade I got moved down to a learning disability class but the
    ended up in every talented and gifted program that was offered. Later I dropped down to the average classes because I couldn’t focus on homework.

    Spent a couple other years bouncing between class levels. Several times I was over 100% in a class thanks to extra credit. Other years I failed all my classes.

    Mental health, nutrition, and all this cliche this are as important as the frequency of the cliches imply. Anyway, that’s my 2 cents.

    well then EB, seems you’ve found the right company of folks to hang out and speak with 🙂

    not having answers to questions that you know are real – is so frustrating…

    i’ve kicked myself in the butt more than once over the last year for waiting until almost 60 to engage in therapy and start addressing some significant mental health challenges…

    my big challenge at the moment though is engaging with regular doctors…i never tried to find a new work health plan doctor after my old one retired…haven’t engaged with the VA doctor since he declined my request for anti-anxiety meds 4 or so months ago…

    present company aside of course – i pretty much fucking hate doctors…more to the point perhaps, i hate needing them…

    I think there might be a Lottery Pick Name Recognition effect with all the Cam fans. Played at Duke…top 10 pick…he’s gotta be good!

    He probably needs to be a featured player to stay engaged on the court. Playing with the Knicks starters, he was mostly consigned to hanging out in the corner waiting for a pass that rarely came.

    I’m a bit surprised that the Knicks can’t give him time to try to shine with the 2nd unit, but his ego may be an issue in all this.

    My entire relationship with doctors changed when I learned that a lot of them can be stupid, lazy, or thoughtless. Especially the ones who dispense psychiatric medication.

    It was surprisingly liberating. Instead of dismissing a whole profession, I realized I just had to work harder and do greater due diligence to find the ones that could help me the most (and pay more, since a lot of them won’t take insurance).

    The catch 22 is that the reasons you need to see a doctor are precisely what prevents you from seeing a doctor

    My youngest brother was a pharma sales rep for years. He has tons of stories of bad and corrupt doctors that he’s told me…some pretty amazing. He’ll tell you that most doctors are fine, but that there are still quite a few bad/greedy ones out there.

    Both of my sons were misdiagnosed by doctors with ADD/ADHD. We did the Ritalin/Concerta/Strattera dance with both, to no effect in school.

    Both were later evaluated properly, and found to be mildly autistic/Asperger’s (our oldest) and having depression (youngest). Some modifications at school worked wonders for our oldest, and seeing a psychiatrist weekly for our youngest (he needed someone non-family/school to talk to). No drugs involved.

    The catch 22 is that the reasons you need to see a doctor are precisely what prevents you from seeing a doctor

    oh my god, this so true…it’s even more maddening when you’re aware of what’s going on…confusing, bewildering, frustrating…

    too many – what the fuck is wrong with me moments…

    My two cents on the state of physician care, as I am one myself:
    1. Just like every profession there are some that are motivated by genuine care for you, but others that are either lazy, thoughtless, or greedy.
    2. As physicians make less and less per visit/procedure every year (example, cataract surgery in 1995: $2500, today $500), it becomes more and more necessary to focus on volume, and of course this affects quality of care.
    3. As physicians’ total piece of the healthcare pie keeps shrinking (8% of medicare expenses go to physicians), and middlemen keep expanding (UHC, etc), physicians will have to hustle more, or become employed by larger systems to avoid dealing with things like prior authorizations, referrals, high deductibles, and denials.
    4. As these middlemen get stronger, they lobby to replace medicare more and more as “Medicare advantage plans” and create even more obstacles for seniors to get their care, and thus, physicians. They get paid per member, but only have to shell out when they have to. The less the better. They cut my specialty 20% this year while United’s CEO took home $14M this year alone
    5. As physicians are more and more disillusioned, overworked, and exhausted, they will choose to join large centers which is fine, but are more worried about the bottom line than patient care. In large sections of NY we have already seen this play out. There are literally no solo practitioners of whole fields of medicine outside of large systems.
    6. As college students see the astronomical cost of college + med school grow, and see how unhappy physicians are, medicine will not be as desirable for the best and brightest.

    It’s not surprising to me at all that I can’t find a good primary care doctor since they are not paid well at all, and a tiny fraction of medical school graduates go into primary care for the same reason.

    My non expert opinion (more like ignorant) is that medicine is heading in the wrong direction. Instead of focusing on the underlying causes of our mental health and other physical issues and making changes, we treat the symptoms with pills. That sometimes allows existing problems to worsen and even creates new ones. And many of those pills have impacts that over the long term (or even short term) will cause you to need another pill. I’m obviously not anti medication, especially when required for your short term stability of health, but I do think the focus is wrong. IMO it has a lot to do with profit driven pharma companies (rapidly moving to the top of my hate list just behind Wall St banks and investment banks) and the way many doctors are now forced to work in large groups that dictate healthcare down to all the doctors instead of allowing them operate more independently.

    Obviously, there are WAY more problems with our healthcare system than this, but these is two I find especially troubling.

    The issue with preventative care is that its research is just not funded enough. Drugs that can sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars have funded well-powered studies efficiently done in tandem, whereas research into things like diet, exercise, non-pharmaceutical psychiatric care, natural or herbal remedies are not funded nearly as much

    Don’t get me wrong, doctors aren’t saints. Lots of them commit fraud, malpractice, and negligence every day. But in my limited experience most of them could have gone into another industry and made more money and had a better lifestyle, but now that ratio has flipped over the past couple decades so that now many have become bitter, overworked, and detached, which is a tragedy to everyone

    My work recently had a health and wellness seminar where we talked about stuff like cancer prevention, etc. We got to the part about colonoscopy’s and how after you’re 45, you should get one every 10 years and your health insurance will cover it.

    Then we talked about lung cancer and how it kills millions of people every year even if they never smoked. And there is really no way to know if you have lung cancer because once you have the symtpoms it’s almost always too late.

    But one of the ways they could prevent that was letting people get a CT scan. But most health insurance companies won’t cover a random CT scan just cause. You have to have a “reason” to get one. And the person leading this seminar even said that if people were able to just get a CT scan every few years once they hit their 30’s, all sorts of cancers could be detected early and treated. But health insurance companies don’t cover CT scans unless the doctor orders one, so you can’t just get a CT scan for preventative reasons.

    I’m not sure how you can watch Grimes and Cam and prefer Cam defensively. Grimes ain’t Thybulle but he’s really good. Just simple stuff like knowing where his help is and using it to his advantage- he and Mitch have been terrific in the pnr. His lateral movement is better, He gets over screens better, he’s got great hands and is disciplined using them, he consistently helps while getting back to his man etc… He’s a skilled defender who works his ass off, Cam has better length and has made a few good plays Grimes might not have made but every game Grimes does multiple good things that Cam just doesn’t do. And offensively, I want to see Grimes usage when he’s shooting the three well- I feel like he’s passing up shots. And while Grimes can’t duplicate Cam’s occasional shifty drives, he’s got more straight line pop and can actually pass of off the bounce. Maybe Cam has a higher ceiling but Grimes’ floor is higher and given the work ethic I think he’s a much better bet to maximizing his talent. There’s a reason he was asked for specifically by Atlanta in the Cam deal and Utah in the Mitchell deal beyond Thibs just loving the guy.

    If you’re an early-Xer, “hustle,” “plays a good floor game,” “smart,” “intelligent,” “heady,” “trustworthy,” “does the little things well,” and all the rest are virtually without exception, code for “white nobody.”

    I’ve never bought into that crap since I was like 12 and I’m not about to start now.

    And even putting that aside, it’s axiomatic and obvious that elite athletic types get to places on the floor/court/field/whatever effortlessly or with little effort that pluggers have to “hustle” to get to.

    I’ll take the athlete and his extra gear.

    A for effort E 😛

    i’ll say it for the 100th time – in all the time i’ve been at KB here, i have yet to note any one who can even come close to E in staying as “fluid” as humanly possible during a discussion…

    If you’re an early-Xer, “hustle,” “plays a good floor game,” “smart,” “intelligent,” “heady,” “trustworthy,” “does the little things well,” and all the rest are virtually without exception, code for “white nobody.”

    I’ve never bought into that crap since I was like 12 and I’m not about to start now.

    I mean, yeah those phrases were code for unathletic white player who plays hard, etc.

    But that doesn’t mean that those traits aren’t good for a basketball player to have, does it?

    I mean, yeah those phrases were code for unathletic white player who plays hard, etc.

    But that doesn’t mean that those traits aren’t good for a basketball player to have, does it?

    ***********************

    It means their hoop intellectual provenance is crap and they’re still essentially crap. They appeal to the Tom Thibodeaus of the world, to be sure, a dude who literally said out loud last year he doesn’t really care for “cool” player types. There are certainly a faction of fans who find them appealing, too, but whatever. There were a faction of fans who found them appealing BITD, too.

    They pale in comparison to talent, particularly at the pro level.

    E- not sure where you are getting the idea that this is something that is racially coded. Kind of bizarre.

    And again, I dont think Cam is very athletic for the NBA. Same goes for RJ.

    You can take Cam and his awesome athleticism that he uses to watch other people get rebounds, pass the ball and make shots. Who cares how athletic he is? It’s a means to an end, and he doesn’t get there.

    E- not sure where you are getting the idea that this is something that is racially coded.

    *************************

    It’s heritage is absolutely, positively racial coding. Common knowledge.

    But like I said, we can put that aside and it’s still nonsense. You aren’t going to “outheady” more talented teams in the NBA. It’s a ridiculous idea. Hoosiers-level material.

    doesn’t seem like that long ago i thought RJ’s “strength” and strong “work-ethic” could make up for the fact he’s short and slow for the position…

    something i had in mind a week or so ago was to discuss the teams’ current rotation basketball IQ…

    i’ve been really disappointed with RJ doing dumb stuff…to his credit, he’s playing better the last few games…

    Actually, I should be more precise. Maybe “racial coding” isn’t the exact right word.

    It’s more that virtually all the “heady” and “hustling”and “smart” (and for the most part “hard working’) players just so happened to be white nobodies. Put whatever term on that you deem to fit. And those traits were deemed to suffice to play said nobodies over better players.

    When Tom Thibodeau said last year that a player either was “too cool” or wasn’t “too cool” — I don’t remember which — what exactly do you think he had in mind with the term “cool”?

    here you go – current rotation’s basketball IQ ratings:

    1). brunson
    2). grimes
    3). mitch
    4). julius
    5). quik
    6). deuce
    7). hart
    8). RJ
    9). obi/sims

    i’m gonna guess, the metrics for determining this one are fairly subjective – but, point being – basketball wise, RJ doesn’t seem very smart out there on the court…

    well then owen, let’s clarify the thought – tom thibodeau is an old peckerwood and we really need a younger, more racially diverse coach…so we can be free of the old white man’s biases and we can all more clearly see the benefit of playing cam over grimes…

    i gotta be careful, E makes me laugh too much and is gonna get me in trouble…

    Grimes isn’t as good as Cam because some people complement his “hustle”. As clear of a tier 5 max as you can get.

    Gonna call bullshit on the dog whistle accusation. As a long-time end-of-bench rooter just because one of the things I enjoy is picking a guy who probably has no future in the league and hoping he can beat his obvious limitations due to having the qualities you describe (underdog bias), most of those guys have been POC.

    Deuce, Frank, Langston, Shane, Landry, and on and on. Sure, one of them was Ron Baker, so sue me. Part of rooting for Ron was ironic, part of it was the hair, and part of it was just the pleasure of being able to call him the mop-headed hustle bunny. What was not to like, outside of his actual on-court play…

    Great basketball players have those characteristics AND incredible athleticism. Like, oh, say, LeBron.

    Cam, not so much.

    Except Cam doesn’t get where he wants on the floor. He’s terrible in iso. He attacks closeouts. Same as Grimes.

    Thibs is such a monster for wanting to play players who try hard and make smart decisions on the court.

    Very insightful stuff, Old Man. Thanks for sharing.

    I know a lot of people who have quit seeking care bc they run into too many of the ones you’re talking about and they give up before they find someone good like you or our esteemed podiatrist Celtic land.

    It took me 9 attempts over 18 years to find a Psychiatist who didn’t just half pay attention to me for 45 minutes and then prescribe Wellbutrin or Adderall. Of course she doesn’t take insurance and charges $500/hour. But at least I’m confident in her recommendations!

    E actually makes sense to me.

    What he’s saying is regardless of whether you like a hustle guy bc he’s white or because he’s a plucky late round poc, you don’t win with those kinds of guys.

    I’m not sure I agree, but that’s what he’s saying. Not that Quentin Grimes is white.

    I don’t really know if Cam isn’t trying out there, but what he’s doing isn’t effective whatever his motivation is.

    I don’t really know if Cam isn’t trying out there, but what he’s doing isn’t effective whatever his motivation is.

    Well sure, Hubert, but I’d rather have the ones I mentioned as end-of-bench filler than Emmanuel Mudiay or Damyean Dotson.

    On the flip side, sometimes they DO help you win, like say, Quentin Grimes, or say, Jeremy Lin. Or, who knows, Miles ‘Deuce’ McBride.

    They may not be game changers, but it’s not always a thing that you’ll have five all-stars as your starters. Sometimes you just need a Kevin Looney.

    Look, I reject completely that my judgment about differences between two players of the same race is racially motivated.

    I did discover that Grimes has a half brother who is 6-‘8 and plays in the NHL.

    I was looking into Cam’s recruitment and I found these quotes

    Cam is probably the best overall talent here (at some Olympic Center training camp for elite high schoolers),” said assistant coach Penny Hardaway. “If he brings it every time he’s on the floor.”

    Reddish’s talent is so overwhelming that it has a way of leaving you wanting more. If the game comes this easily to him, why did he only shoot 40 percent from the field on Nike’s EYBL circuit? Why did his team only finish the season 7-9?

    He’s like Jimmy Butler 2.0 to me,” Bossi said. “If you go in the lab and create a basketball player, it would probably look something like Cam Reddish.”

    I do think he looks the part, he just doesn’t play the part quite as well.

    from what i remember of yesterdays thread and now cdiggy mentioning it, it seems like a few of the folks here attended Stuyvesant High School…

    i’m not familiar with it, looked it up…that seems like a very special place that can have a really big on its students…

    I had no idea I was crashing the Stuyvesant HS alumni chapter of Knicks fans.

    also we should rename the site peglegblogger

    HAHAHAAA @ Hubert & DRed. I must be going through something internally today. I went to look up my former guidance counselor there only to find out she passed in 2015. Talk about a patron saint… my three years at Stuy were really difficult because I was going through a lot of turmoil at home, and she helped get me through it.

    I don’t miss the four hours of homework every night tho. Had to take a break from it just to watch the Knicks lol.

    Andrew Wiggins, who many people believe was the 2nd most important player for the champion Warriors in the NBA finals had a WS/48 of .105 last season. Granted, he is good at jumping. They also had guys like Jordan Poole (28th pick), Draymond Green (hustle guy, terrible athlete, too small), Kevon Looney (30th pick, not great size, can’t score outside of 10 feet) playing significant roles.

    Obviously, they also had Steph Curry. And that’s the most important thing. But there is a zero percent chance Cam ever turns into a Steph Curry like figure. Wiggins would probably be a best case somewhat realistic scenario for Cam, and Wiggins is now a pretty solid NBA player who had a great series at the perfect time. Grimes, who is already pretty decent, has a good chance of turning into a solid NBA player. He obviously would need a lot of help from his teammates getting to an NBA finals, but so would Cam, and he’s much more likely to bust.

    One of my best friends went to Stuy. So did Billy McFarland actually.

    My buddy said the students were in general amazingly smart but the school itself was underwhelming. He said he had a teacher once who told the class, “I don’t care what you do but if someone comes in to observe, and I ask a question, raise your right hand if you know the answer and your left if you don’t.”

    I always thought that was hilarious.

    Also, DRed’s pizza looks tasty to me. Over the summer I tried making pizza on a grill with a pizza stone as we discussed a few years back and it turned out amazing.

    Owen, you’re conjuring up an accusation when there’s no accusation.

    I’ll try again.

    There was a time when all those buzzwords were typically used to describe and justify white nobodies. That taught me (and a lot of us) that they were just bullshit — in basketball terms.(*)

    And they’re still bullshit — in basketball terms.

    Sasha Zverev effortlessly moves 15 feet and gets to a ball on the baseline. Joe Zero, Central Park nobody, huffs and puffs to the very same ball and looks all energetic and hustly and trytastic and swell and effort man. Who gives a shit if Joe Zero looks all hustly? It’s meaningless.

    (*) Whatever it says about race is completely separate.

    “I do think he looks the part, he just doesn’t play the part quite as well.”

    Seriously, this has been Cam’s profile since high school, I don’t think anyone can deny that.

    Yet still, if we were the type of club that was doing a to-the-studs rebuild, then sure, I would say keep Cam and play him!

    But for a team hunting a superstar, signing Brunson types, and being guided by Thibs, trying to coach up Cam with a lot of learning minutes isn’t going to happen. Thibs and Co. are scrapping for each win. We’re better off just trading the guy.

    Yeah, but scrapping for every win is stupid.

    “We’re going to play scrappy, smart Johnny Hustles to scrap for meaningless wins.”

    Thanks, but no thanks.

    Consider this a moment of clarity and definition. The issue has been joined.

    I definitely understand E’s larger point that white players are far more often given labels that imply they outperform their talent in some way. It’s true and well documented.

    It was just confusing as applied to Quentin Grimes who, I will repeat, is not white.

    And sometimes these decisions aren’t so tough:

    Grimes career fg%: .422, career 3pt%: .367

    Reddish career fg%: .393, career 3pt%: .323

    Now, the real shit-disturbing question is this:

    Does Tom Thibodeau, age 64, basketball lifer, Mr. Eat Your Vegetables himself, still carry with him the vestiges of the “Hustle Era” that comprised his formative years and does he, consciously or otherwise, still see in certain players the same things he saw in that era, using much the same visual and evaluative template?

    Or, even better:

    Was Tom Thibodeau *himself* a scrappy, smart, heady, hustling player with a great floor game who was always in the right place and did all the little things well?

    Ok E. I guess I would say that even if I agreed with your argument I don’t think it applies here.

    And sure, dumb labels get put on players for bad reasons or no reasons. Mental and physical skills are inextricably intertwined in athleticism. I will buy that.

    I do remember people really struggling with how to describe Manu. People did sometimes portray him as this hustle bunny coming off the bench for a while. Then he was crafty. I think there was a late recognition too that he had always been an insane athlete.

    I of course knew all along he was better than Kobe.

    But Grimes seems to me to understand how to play team defense a lot better than Cam. So I think in the case he does just have more basketball smarts.

    How often do I write a long post only to find TNFH said it better and shorter.

    Veteran poster loses edge as young neophyte overtakes him….

    I’m amazed people engage with E. He’s a classic troll. I eviscerated his take that RJ was better than Grimes back in July and never heard from him. GRIMES WAS BETTER IN HIS FIRST YEAR THAN RJ IN HIS THIRD. It’s not only obvious to the eye test – which, by the way, tells me that Grimes has elite athleticism, far more of a fast-twitch athlete than Cam – but even his numbers clearly put him at RJ’s level as a rookie.

    This game is simple: get as many possessions as you can and score as efficiently as possible with them; keep the opponent from doing the same. That plays out in myriad complex ways, but in most that can be measured, GRIMES IS BETTER THAN CAM TODAY. GRIMES IS BETTER THAN RJ TODAY. The one area where RJ is better is his shamelessness – Grimes doesn’t waste nearly as many possessions as RJ does.

    But RJ and Cam went to Duke. RJ was drafted third. They get crazy selection bias, where trolls like E dismiss Grimes as Hustlebunny 2.0. Ah, no, fam.

    I don’t think Thibs has some unconscious bias that makes him prefer Grimes- Grimes just executes his game plan better. It’s as simple as that.

    As Early Bird said, Grimes is pretty straight-ahead on his drives, and that’s a limitation. But his passing is good; his court vision is good. His hops are great and he gets off the ground quickly, faster than anyone on the team but Mitch. His shot is above average, and his lateral speed and general court awareness, along with his motor, means he’s above average on D as well. It isn’t an accident that we started playing better when he got healthy and began starting.

    Does he have “star” potential? Who knows. Maybe E is right and he’s limited. On the other hand, HE’S ALREADY GOOD. I would much rather have him increase his usage (which I think would not be hard for him, even before he develops “wiggle”) than see RJ or Cam at their levels.

    And no, I’m not going back on my modest approval of Cam’s game – he has been more consistent this year, with fewer gaffes on D. I don’t think he’s a plus player and don’t have any confidence he’ll ever be as good as Grimes, but he’s been a lot better than RJ. What I was advocating for, very strongly this summer, was trading RJ before his extension came up.

    Instead we extended him early. Fucking brain-damaged.
    Even if RJ were good, we don’t need him with Julius and Brunson on the court. They are far superior offensive players, and Cam and Grimes are better complements to their game.

    Edit: I really hope RJ gets it together and becomes a consistent plus player. I don’t see it; I see total inconsistency in his shot, slow feet, no explosiveness, an unwillingness or inability to pass, lack of attention and anticipation on defense. But it would be great if he got it together and contributed as much as Grimes!

    I’m well aware of David Eckstein Syndrome but that doesn’t seem to be what’s going on here with Quentin Grimes and Cam Reddish. The guy who RUNS OUT EVERY GROUND BALL REALLY HARD doesn’t help you all that much if he’s not a good player, but a guy who makes good decisions instead of dumb ones is a guy I’d rather have on my team than the guy who makes dumb decisions instead of smart ones. I don’t think you can lump Basketball IQ into the “runs out groundballs” category.

    Cam is one of those guys where you have to squint at him really hard, and give him lots of credit for non-boxscore things to turn him into a good player in your mind. I’m not saying those players don’t exist, but I am saying Cam Reddish is not one of those players.

    That’s not to say that Quentin Grimes is a blue chip prospect, because there are flaws in Grimes’ game too: he never gets to the free throw line, for example. But it seems like Cam Truthers are the new Frank Truthers. You squares just can’t seeee it, maaaaan.

    I don’t think Grimes starting and Reddish being benched is all about who is better or who has more potential (although I do think Grimes is better at the moment). The Knicks’ lineup needed what Grimes has more than it needed what Reddish has, so Grimes got the opportunity.

    This Cam vs Grimes argument is bizarre mostly because no one on the pro-Grimes side is arguing about how hard he hustles. Grimes certainly does look like he’s trying harder than Cam out there but, more importantly, Grimes is clearly a better player than Cam out there. Cam has played solid enough defense this year and will make the occasional move on offense that maybe shows his potential but he just isn’t as good as Grimes is today: https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=grimequ01&p1yrfrom=2023&player_id2=reddica01&p2yrfrom=2023

    Reddish gets slightly more steals and blocks but every other traditional and advanced stat favors Grimes (and there’s more to playing defense than steals and blocks). And this is despite the fact that Reddish is both older and has played in the NBA 2 more years than Grimes.

    This reminds me of when children on /r/NBA liked to argue that Kyrie Irving was a more talented basketball player than Steph Curry because he had more dribble moves. It’s cool that he can do this fancy stuff that other players can’t but none of that matters if it doesn’t make him a more effective player and Kyrie isn’t more effective than Curry and Cam isn’t more effective than Grimes.

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