[www.foxsports.com.au] — Thursday, October 20, 2022 3:22:00 AM
NBA 2022: scores, results, highlights, videos, Orlando Magic v Detroit Pistons, Pick 1 Paolo Banchero debut, New York Knicks v Memphis Grizzlies, New Orleans Pelicans v Brooklyn Nets Fox Sports
[www.cbssports.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 11:40:54 PM
Knicks’ Isaiah Hartenstein: Productive off bench Wednesday CBS Sports
[www.mercurynews.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 11:19:35 PM
Ja Morant puts on a show, Grizzlies drop Knicks 115-112 in OT The Mercury News
[bleacherreport.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:50:06 PM
Knicks Fans Love Cam Reddish’s Breakout in Season Opening Loss vs. Grizzlies Bleacher ReportTurning Reddish: Knicks’ Rally Falls Just Short in Memphis Sports IllustratedKnicks’ Cam Reddish: Big night off bench CBS SportsCam Reddish makes most of Knicks chance in opener New York Post Knicks’ Cam Reddish makes strong impression in explosive season debut Empire Sports MediaView Full Coverage on Google News
[bronx.news12.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:48:45 PM
Knicks, Nets kick off NBA season opener games News 12 Bronx
[clutchpoints.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:45:56 PM
Knicks’ Derrick Rose throws fastball at Steven Adams’ head ClutchPoints
[www.si.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:38:07 PM
Turning Reddish: Knicks’ Rally Falls Just Short in Memphis Sports Illustrated
[www.postingandtoasting.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:38:02 PM
Grizzlies 115, Knicks 112 (OT): Scenes from the return of Knicks-related heartbreak Posting and ToastingKnicks Starting Lineup Against The Grizzlies Sports IllustratedKnicks’ fight earns them nice slice of credibility even in defeat New York Post Postgame Report: Ja Morant’s 34 points lead Grizzlies past the Knicks in season opener NBA.com3 realistic expectations for Knicks in season opener against Grizzlies Daily KnicksView Full Coverage on Google News
[www.dallasnews.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:36:06 PM
Ex-Mav Brunson plays pivotal role in Knicks loss vs. Grizzlies The Dallas Morning News
[www.sfgate.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:30:47 PM
Memphis 115, N.Y. Knicks 112 SFGATE
[abc7chicago.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:11:50 PM
NBA 2022-23 season opening week: Knicks and Grizzlies players arrive in style WLS-TV
[www.mdjonline.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 7:15:43 PM
NBA: New York Knicks at Memphis Grizzlies | Fieldlevel | mdjonline.com MDJOnline.com
[www.cbssports.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 6:09:17 PM
Knicks’ Cam Reddish: In rotation for opener CBS Sports
[clutchpoints.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 5:09:03 PM
NBA Odds New York Knicks 2022-23 season win total prediction ClutchPoints
[empiresportsmedia.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 5:05:41 PM
Knicks’ RJ Barrett is extra motivated to face Ja Morant: I’m always trying to prove myself Empire Sports Media
[nbaanalysis.net] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 2:23:15 PM
This Knicks-Spurs Trade Features Josh Richardson NBA Analysis Network
[www.si.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 2:20:55 PM
Quentin Grimes Tops Knicks’ Injury List for Opener in Memphis Sports Illustrated
[www.nydailynews.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 2:01:09 PM
Steven Adams praises Knicks’ Mitchell Robinson New York Daily News
[bleacherreport.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 2:00:00 PM
Stephen A.: Ainge Said He’d Trade Donovan Mitchell to Knicks ‘When Hell Freezes Over’ Bleacher Report
[www.audacy.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 12:49:00 PM
Gio Knicks season opener record buzz New York Giants Jets WFAN
[hoopshabit.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 12:00:00 PM
What should New York Knicks fans expect from Jalen Brunson’s first season? Hoops Habit
[www.si.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:56:08 AM
NBA Odds, Lines and Bets: Pelicans-Nets, Knicks-Grizzlies, Mavericks-Suns Sports Illustrated
[dailyknicks.com] — Wednesday, October 19, 2022 8:39:00 AM
Tracy Morgan proves loyalty to Knicks ahead of season opener in Memphis Daily Knicks
138 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.10.20)”
It’s my fault.
Not so long ago commenting on how steady and reliable RJ has been during preseason I wrote “Here and there we’ll probably still witness a 3-19 shooting night from RJ”.
He went 3-18 just to show me the finger.
Play(s) of the game
1. Brunson feed to Cam’s triple to force overtime on a wonderfully designed ATO play.
2. Refs did rob us the game not calling Ja’s interference and foul. MEM scored on the next possession so it was a 4-maybe-5 points swing (it depends on Brunson FT) in a tie game in overtime: BULLSHIT.
Stat(s) of the day
40. As in I-Hart’s playing time.
Or 6-35, the combined RJ, IQ, Obi and Rose shooting line.
Brunson C +
Bad 1st half, where he was abused on D, solid 2nd half. 9 AST to 0 TO is a good ratio right? Nice to watch him steady on the rudder in the clutch, alas he missed a decisive shot.
Randle A
Great game, his 6th foul was a problem. 24 efficient pts, 11 rebs, 6 assists. Very engaged. If this Jules shows every night we’re in for a good season.
Mitch D
Bummer. Troubled by fouls, only 13 minutes and Adams’ unrelentless energy had the best of him.
Fournier C
Not sharp but moved the ball well, with nice assists, 2 steals and some effort on D.
RJ D-
Not only he was null from long range but he missed some unforgivable point blank shots and didn’t defend well for most of the game.
Cam A-
Oozes offensive talent but rarely uses it in the right way, he did it in this game. His turnovers are always dumb and his defense irritating most of the time, but when he shows flashes like this lets you wondering what he can become if someone can help him focus and hone his skills.
I-Hart B +
He’s not Mitch on D (but defended well on some drives), manhandled by Adams under our board, but played really well on offense and his passing is an eye-candy.
IQ D-
Terrible game, 0-6 and only 17 minutes. In a worrysome shooting slump, but we had seen it before, let’s hope he rebounds fast.
Rose D
Far from his best. Rounding into form after a season ruined by injuries or a natural decline? I’m leaning toward the former but at his age you never know…
Obi D +
Maybe he shouldn’t have play. Bad game but with interesting hints, him and I-Hart can develop a nice offensive chemistry.
Thibs A
Great game. Good rotations and he straightened them up on defense after 32 minutes of shame. He trusts Brunson and it shows.
With IQ and RJ looking like empty shells I really missed Grimes but there was a lot to love here, now let’s keep up the good work, the next 3 games are already incredibly important.
I’m not as good at recapping games as Max but I did just find out I passed the bar!
Kudos Noble! That’s great news!
Now can we sue Dolan for all our years of sorrow?
Congrats Noble!!! Awesome work!!!
Nice, Noble! Now start suing Dolan immediately!
A few weeks ago I posed the question: who is the only guy on the Knicks roster with a superstar ceiling, with my answer being Cam Reddish. Of course there was a tongue-in-cheek element, but it’s kind of true. He did things last night that very few players in the NBA can do. The jump stop pull-up 3 to tie over a tall defender was one example. The smooth finishes in traffic with both hands. Someone (was it Mike Breen?) commented “shades of the Ice Man…” on one of his many finishes.
Obviously it is an illusion, the pin is approaching the bubble…but for one night we had a burgeoning superstar on the team.
Congrats Noble!!!
Awesome TNFH!! Shortly, you’ll be crushing the landlords’ bar like Shaq did to skinny centers back in the day*
I was buoyed by Randle’s adaptation from last year and we have a real PG in Brunson. Mitch seemed overhyped and RJ, to quote the mom of one of my former colleagues, was smelling himself too much. He needs to integrate, knowing when to fold em when he’s shooting like he did last night.
* apologies for the hackneyed similies.
Congrats TNFH. That is great to hear
I couldn’t have been the only one last night who looked at the stat line from our young players and also grimes and thought “so they wanted IQ, Obi, Gimes and some picks for Mitchell and we said no?”
I kid, of course. But last night on the road against a good team our young players did not show up. That’s the type of game where Mitchell probably wins it for you.
Max, mostly agree with your grades. I disagree with the Brunson C+, thought he had a solid game with some quibbles and would go B+, maybe A-. Think of the contrast between him and our other PGs. He also made some massive baskets down the stretch before Cam’s 3 off of his pass, and drew that offensive foul. I wouldn’t give Randle an A except compared to the low expectations based on last year’s play. He stuck with the game plan but also did some really dumb things, like his 6th foul. B+ would be my grade.
“I kid, of course. But last night on the road against a good team our young players did not show up. That’s the type of game where Mitchell probably wins it for you.”
Well he didn’t win it for the Cavs.
Seriously, I would not have made that trade in a million years, just based on the draft picks required alone. Not only would he not have won last night’s game for us, he’d be just another version of Melo who cared more about scoring 30 than making his teammates better. Thrilled that we passed on him.
>I’m not as good at recapping games as Max but I did just find out I passed the bar!<
Congratulations
>He did things last night that very few players in the NBA can do. <
I've been saying that exact same thing since we traded for him and even before that from watching him in Atlanta. That's the kind of stuff that tantalizes scouts and fans. He has a LOT of "talent". Of course the trip from talent to bottom line efficiency is not automatic. It's littered with the carcasses of a lot of young players. But if he puts it all together, his ceiling on offense is a LOT higher than someone with less talent that's already efficient but on low usage.
One reason I keep defending him from overly negative commentary is that his development has been stalled repeatedly going all the way back to college. So whatever the probability is normally for someone his age, it’s better than that for him. Granted, I don’t know what that probability is. I don’t have the data, but I’m fine with being patient. It’s a long year.
Way to go Noble!
Congrats on the bar!
On the game: Ja getting a no foul on his game-saving block of Brunson was a terrible call but maybe a payback for the (absolutely correct) call on the charge Brunson took earlier.
Thibs drew up the game-tying three *for* Cam, so that is … interesting? — especially in light of theories that Thibs didn’t/doesn’t want Cam.
Mitch, RJ, IQ, and Obi have GOT to show up against the good teams. In particular, Mitch v. Adams was a stellar opportunity, and our guy just didn’t have it. That was the biggest disappointment of the night for me, win or lose.
We may soon shift the conversation to whether RJ can play within himself after parsing Julius this way for a while.
Ja is really that kind of player for whom the baskets just seem easy. Dating all the way back to Patrick Ewing, I can’t remember a star for us who didn’t seem to labor for every single shot, whether in or out. The game just looks different from Morant’s POV. I wish we could share some of that. One day ….
I mentioned this last year, but I’m going to say it again.
I think we need a standard deviation of efficiency stat or something like that for each player.
Imagine player A has a series of very consistent games that nets out to TS% of 54%,
Imagine player B has a series of games that are all over the map that nets out to a TS% of 54%.
Their TS% is the same, but the players are not.
I say that because RJ’s profile is more like player B. Last night was horrific on high volume. Even if he has a series of above average games where his contribution to winning is notable, his TS% is still going to suck. He did the same thing a lot last year. The data on that kind of thing might be both interesting and have some value.
I would not have done the Mitchell trade either and I’m glad we walked away. I’m just laughing at the fact that all of our young players played like crap after we chose them over Mitchell.
Congrats TNFH!
I think the Morant blatant foul on the chase down block on Brunson was the deciding factor of the game, and if we lose a game away like that against one of the best teams in the league last season, there’s going to be plenty of reasons to be happy about the performance.
I liked what I saw, except of course for Barrett who was the worst player on the court, terrible offense and struggling heavily to stay in front of Morant on pick and rolls (and it’s telling that the one possession Brunson switched on him he went hard through the screen and Ja turned it over, while RJ was dying on the screen every time)
All things considered, it was a fun game and a strong showing.
I’m going to say this again too.
If Durant, Curry etc… has a rough start to a game, they should keep shooting because it’s probably random noise .
If a guy that struggles with shooting has a rough start to the game, he should pull back, focus on other things, and only take the best shots. It could easily be form, bad shot selection, and other things.
Thibs has to find the balance with RJ of telling him to not be afraid to shoot on nights that aren’t going well, but to not pretend he’s some kind of marksman as a shooter that should play right through it on high volume.
You know how hard it is to go 3-18?
That take a very special combination of terrible shooting and no conscience at all.
Swifty, of course I know that…my point is only that which young players were included had no bearing on how I felt about the trade, it was all about the draft picks.
But that was a tough opening game for any team to face, Memphis is legitimately good, and very young as well. I think these next 3 games will go a long way in getting us ready for games like that, which are looming starting next week. That 7-game stretch should be pretty telling.
One thing that really bugs me about RJ when he puts his head down in the open court and just drives straight to the rim without even considering a pass. On those, he’s the antithesis of a “heads up” player.
“I think the Morant blatant foul on the chase down block on Brunson was the deciding factor of the game”
**
This, plus Brunson missing that wide open three towards the end. If Jalen hits that, we win. I’m not crapping on the guy, b/c he had the kind of PG game we’ve dreamed about for years, steady running the show, and coming up big (taking a charge) down the stretch. But Brunson’s three is the kind of shot champs make. I’d say the same about E4s last shot but he’d been sitting the whole 4th. Only C(h)am(p) got it right 😉
Yes indeed funny-sad to see ALL the “trade bait” for Mitchell play so poorly on one game. I guess Grimes escapes that criticism b/c: boot.
And, since we are quibbling, Randle had a great game but literally played himself off the floor with stupid unnecessary fouls down the stretch. Baby steps, I guess.
“I think the Morant blatant foul on the chase down block on Brunson was the deciding factor of the game”
IMO, it was both a foul and goal tending.
I love having the first day of box scores to review. So much data all of a sudden.
Strat – I think shooting is more or less a random walk after factoring in the opposing defense, the player’s talent, and his typical shot mix. So pulling a “cold hand,” unless he is sick or injured seems unmathematical. But I would have pulled RJ last night.
Good moral victory in that loss, but RJ… Jesus.
We keep thinking he’s turned a corner, but then he never really has. It’s especially frustrating when the rest of his draft class is legit killing it.
Even with a rehabbed Randle handing him gift passes, he looked like shit. I hope this is an aberration because now we’re stuck with him on a fat contract. If he plays even an average game last night, we steal that victory.
Also, I remain perplexed by Quickley. Even when his shot is falling, he appears to do the most random stuff with the ball… I like the guy, and his advanced stats miraculously end up looking nice, but he skitters around like a bat with rabies most of the game.
The Randle foul in OT was so predictable that as soon as he started barreling towards the paint I immediately thought ok here’s the offensive foul. He played well, he’s looked leaner and more into the game so i wont criticize him too much for that, but that was a very predictable move.
The Brunson missed 3 was one of the best plays we ran the whole game, it was a very very good passing sequence and precisely the type of ball I want this team to play, just unfortunate that he couldn’t hit it.
Thanks guys! As you all know I appreciate all of you a ton and genuinely couldn’t have done it without this board. Wild to say, but it’s absolutely true.
You can definitely see why Cam has so many dead enders, years of failure be damned. For the record I’m still bearish–a lot of his drives last night looked nice but they didn’t scream “great” finisher to me. I’m admittedly no scout, but a lot of them looked like low-ish probability finesse moves that happened to go in. That’s the difference between him and someone like Brunson, who gets the ball through the hoop by sheer force of will.
Lest I get accused of undue skepticism, I still absolutely think he bought himself a bunch of games in the rotation regardless of the health status of anyone else on the team. Results matter and his were great. I’m also not saying there’s *nothing* there, just that last night didn’t drastically change my priors.
RJ…man I can’t get over how ugly that was. I’m trying to apply the same “don’t let a single game” adjust your priors thing, but it’s hard when it looks like someone is a sleep agent for the other team. Anyone have any compelling theories as to why someone so strong has comparable finishing numbers to Ish Smith?
“Anyone have any compelling theories as to why someone so strong has comparable finishing numbers to Ish Smith?”
He’s strong, but he’s not particularly fast, is piss-poor vertically, and remains very left-hand dominant. In short, it’s very easy for the defender to know where to be when RJ is going to the rim.
>Strat – I think shooting is more or less a random walk after factoring in the opposing defense, the player’s talent, and his typical shot mix. So pulling a “cold hand,” unless he is sick or injured seems unmathematical. But I would have pulled RJ last night.<
I hear you, but I'm not talking about hot/cold hand.
No one feels the same physically every day.
You have days where you are full of energy and days you are lethargic
You have days where you feel mentally sharp and days you feel dull.
You have days where you have a clear head and days where outside stresses are on your mind.
You have days when you are feeling confident and stays where self doubt starts creeping in.
That all impacts how you play.
Shooting in particular is also very dependent on form. The very best veteran shooters are more consistent because their form is so consistent and they know when it's random and when they are "off" for some reason (and vice versa).
As a default, I think it makes way more sense to let a great shooter keep firing than a wildly inconsistent mediocre one like RJ.
It's mental with him. He legitimately thinks he's supposed to keep firing as if he's some kind of star player. He said as much in the press that he learned that from a prior coach. IMO, that's a mistake for him at the pro level. Plus, he takes it to a whole new level and starts firing even more as if he's fighting to prove something. IMO, it's bad decision making.
Strat – It could be true but it’s basically not actionable.
Congrats Noble! If Dolan ever bans me from the Garden, i now know who to call! 😉
About the game, the guys that had bad games will probably rebound, and the guys that played well, i need to see this in a lot more games to buy that they’re good now. Or again, in Randle’s case. Brunson and Hart getting better as the game went along was the bright spot of the night to me. I hope they can keep it up.
Cam gave almost all of his great offensive game on the other side, and as he won’t be having nights as perfect as this one on offense, he needs to be better on deffense or else his playing time will get back to only a few minutes.
But i liked the game a lot, even if we got the L. It’s great the Knicks are playing again. 🙂
“Strat – It could be true but it’s basically not actionable.”
I think it’s on Thibs to find the balance and teach him or this is not going to be the last 3/18 we see.
“The Brunson missed 3 was one of the best plays we ran the whole game, it was a very very good passing sequence and precisely the type of ball I want this team to play….”
Exactly. All night the passing was clicking and we seemed to have a game plan even when our personnel got wonky beyond Thibs’s comfort zone (4 guards?!). We created good looks the whole game; we just couldn’t finish. By contrast, (almost) all of last year was a bad game plan, no passing, and shots thrown up in prayer. This is way better.
As someone else posted: Wins are coming.
I have no idea how one can study for the bar while simultaneously pushing the Ted Nelson daily word limit. Makes your passage so much more impressive. Congrats, kid.
3/18 shooting.
Another bad game for RJ that costs a win.
Another bad month for Frank that costs nothing. lol
The only complaint I really have with Thibs last night was not letting Mitch foul out. There’s no point in saving him when we have a good backup
Barrett and Robinson played like the ghost of Charlie Ward was off their back and they could sleep easy.
But really as I said in the thread we played well last night. Small sample, obviously, but encouraging
RJ didn’t just miss on those drives, those drives looked godawful, like there was zero chance some of those were going in. Slow, straight-line drives right into the teeth of the defense are not going to get you buckets or whistles.
He needs to play within himself and stop playing like an off-brand Kobe.
“DRed says:
October 20, 2022 at 10:48
The only complaint I really have with Thibs last night was not letting Mitch foul out. There’s no point in saving him when we have a good backup”
I think Thibs actually thought that Hart deserved to be in there because he outplayed Mitch even beyond the fouls. Hart was a huge factor in getting us back into that game, as was Cam. Seems like Thibs just rolled with them to reward them for their efforts.
RJ once again overshadowed in a game by the draft class peer he was so often compared to—Brandon Clarke
“Owen says:
October 20, 2022 at 10:16
I love having the first day of box scores to review. So much data all of a sudden.”
What I like even more is that this is the only time where you can see in B-R how single-game data translates into the advanced stats. (of course, as I say that, I notice that B-R is not updated yet…)
If this is the Randle we get, not looking at the makes but just playing in the flow, we’re going to have a very solid offense.
Not going to read too much into poor shooting nights for IQ, Rose, or Brunson.
Not reading too much into Cam’s good night either but hope it continues.
Like I said a few weeks ago, while Thibs is very rigid in other areas, he’s generally been very good about playing the hot hand down the stretch. Whether or not he likes Cam, Cam had it going, so Cam stayed in. We will still probably see all three of Brunson, RJ, and Randle in most closing lineups, but the other two will vary. And I think if any of IQ, Rose, or Obi had been playing better last night, RJ might have sat for them at the end.
Mitch played like 4 minutes in the second half.
You should be able to find this in the daily boxscores for individual games on BKRef. NBA.com has it too.
Big 3 USG:
Randle: 24.1%
RJ: 24.7%
Brunson: 20%
With RJ last night it felt like a guy fixing his bayonet to attack a machine gun emplacement.
Hart was excellent and is exactly the kind of acquisition statheads have been clamoring for for years. He’s been stanned here specifically for awhile. All credit to Leon.
Speaking of Hart, just saw a clip of a foul he got called for against Adams. Pretty baffling call and a big momentum swing last night there too.
I think we need a standard deviation of efficiency stat or something like that for each player.
Imagine player A has a series of very consistent games that nets out to TS% of 54%,
Imagine player B has a series of games that are all over the map that nets out to a TS% of 54%.
Their TS% is the same, but the players are not.
I say that because RJ’s profile is more like player B. Last night was horrific on high volume. Even if he has a series of above average games where his contribution to winning is notable, his TS% is still going to suck. He did the same thing a lot last year. The data on that kind of thing might be both interesting and have some value.
the standard deviation of rj’s ts% last season was 13.9%. here are some randomly chosen comps.
derozan: 11.4%
KAT: 12.3%
booker: 12.2%
randle: 13.5%
d mitchell: 14.0%
tatum: 14.3%
b ingram: 15.0%
j brown: 15.1%
j butler: 15.9%
Most encouraging: Great Randle game. He’s by far the biggest bellwether for how this season is going to go and this was basically everything we want from him.
Most discouraging: Not even a slightly good night for the young guys (Reddish obviously excepted). RJ clearly the leader in this regard but only 13 minutes for Obi makes me want to cry as well. Seeing Thibs go to a small lineup in OT made me wonder: could Obi be out of the rotation altogether soon if Cam keeps playing well and Grimes returns?
Also IQ was a travesty last night. Somebody brought up the Knickerblogger all-stars the other day who we wasted tons of digital ink on and never amounted to anything in the league and my (semi?) hot take is that I’m still not 100% completely sure that IQ doesn’t end up on that list someday. For a third-year player there are still concerningly many moments where he looks totally out of his depth and last night was built entirely of those moments.
Congrats, Noble. That’s wonderful news!
Didn’t get to watch the game, but the comments make me think that RJ did exactly what he swore he wasn’t going to do — the preseason chatter from him was all about passing out of drives and trusting his teammates. Instead it seems he was all head down and damn the torpedoes? If so, we should all dig up and send him those quotes…
My youngest turned 21 today, marking the first time in 25+ years that I am not the parent of a minor. She reminded me that it is also Jericho Sims’ birthday. If that’s not evidence that I raised her right, I don’t know what is!
For those hearing of RJ’s debacle but who didn’t see it, here’s a video of all of his possessions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CL1Ygg1T0g
the standard deviation of rj’s ts% last season was 13.9%. here are some randomly chosen comps.
derozan: 11.4%
KAT: 12.3%
booker: 12.2%
randle: 13.5%
d mitchell: 14.0%
tatum: 14.3%
b ingram: 15.0%
j brown: 15.1%
j butler: 15.9%
hmmm….i wonder how sensitive the TS% is to each 100bps change in std dev..
He’s unathletic so he can’t blow past defenders and can’t even dream of jumping over them; he’s a bad shooter so defenders can sag off of him (which exacerbates his poor athleticism); and he hasn’t developed his handle or post moves at all because he thinks he can still bully other players like he did in HS and college.
Today’s Lesson:
You can’t have a large standard deviation when you’re always bad
work done well mister noble…onward and upward shall you continue…
Congrats, TNFH! The Donald Trumps and Alex Joneses of the world await you!
Just one game, so let’s see how RJ and Cam respond.
It was very fun for me to watch the Knicks running an O late with a heady PG. Sure, Brunson’s gonna get burned on D some, but he’s out there trying hard to fight through screens and recover when his guy has a step on him. We haven’t always seen that in Knicks PG in recent years.
One very minor quibble with Thibs – why didn’t he have Mitch out there for the opening jump ball in OT? I know it’s just one possession, but every one is critical when you’re only playing 5 minutes.
Otherwise, I was pretty happy with his substitutions and play calls.
The one thing that I noticed in poring over that film is that RJ still does lots of good stuff out there…rebounding, defending, passing…so he doesn’t have to be an elite shooter to have a positive impact. He just can’t be downright putrid.
And to be fair, even the great Jayson Tatum put up monumental clunkers quite often at age 22. In 2019-20, he had the following games:
8-22
8-22
5-17
1-18
8-23
5-17
6-19
4-13
5-18
5-18
2-16
5-16
4-13
5-15
9-27
8-22
2-18
His last three fouls:
– at 98-98 with 2:26 to go and the Knicks in the bonus, he fouls Ja Morant 90 feet away from the basket. Ja converts the 2 free points.
– at 100-100 (thanks to Brunson) he blatantly shoves Santi Aldama under the basket after a Desmond Bane miss. Aldama converts 1 of 2.
– and then in OT, the predictable charge you cited.
And after each one (which were all clear and obvious) he had the audacity to whine to the officials. No accountability at all.
I know he had an excellent game in the box score but he carried himself very poorly (like he did in the Atlanta series that started his downward spiral) and I am deeply concerned.
On the bright side:
Thibs was unexpectedly creative (he played four guards!).
Brunson was expectedly good.
And Cam proved that all of us who defended Leon for that trade were right.
sorry to hear your birthday wasn’t smooth al…man, i do not enjoy holidays or birthdays (at least other folks’ birthdays) much at all…a lot of extra stress and expectations…
went back in to the office on tuesday…my heart rate was hitting 110 bpm just sitting at my desk reading…real rocky ride…what was nice though is the random conversations running in to folks i’ve known for many years, that’s nice, means a lot to me…
“worked” from home yesterday…going back in to the office in a little while…maybe i’ll ride my scooter to work, that’ll be fun…i’m smoking now, so not entirely sober…not nearly fucked up enough though to make this fight/flight feeling go away…
it seems my amygdala is fucking up the job (concentration and comprehension) my frontal cortex is supposed to be doing…
i’m trying to stay relatively sober at least the first half of the day…
i don’t know if that’s today’s plan though…
my boss already cut back my workload, which wasn’t much to begin with…
i appreciate the kindness, it sucks to need help…so so much better to give help than to need it…about a million times better…
OK Computer
Tatum had a 58.6% ts% as a rookie and a 57.8% ts% last year.
If there was one worrisome element to last night’s game for me, it was that Obi was once again marginalized. Even when Julius fouled out, Thibs was reluctant to call his number. There clearly isn’t a lot of trust there.
Also, this made me chuckle. Would be fun to have some rookies to dream on and very solid debut for the two Pistons.
https://twitter.com/DuncanSmithNBA/status/1582965710795714560
“Owen says:
October 20, 2022 at 12:38
Tatum had a 58.6% ts% as a rookie and a 57.8% ts% last year.”
True, but the point was to not overreact to one bad shooting game, not to imply that RJ is anywhere close to being on track for a Jayson Tatum-like career. This did not feel like a representative game for RJ, but sure, it doesn’t help that the high water mark for his TS% is .535.
Fun tidbit: I knew half these guys. They’re a bunch of Tottenham supporters at the Lion & Lamb in North London, and they’re actually serenading Tottenham Hotspur FC.
Back then I had a big thing with English football and was the social director of NY Spurs. We used to have a board like this and most of those guys were on it. Which actually presents a great idea: we should do this for the knicks!
Sorry for being late (I was trying to recoup some of the lost sleep…)
I hear you Z-Man,
I think you could be right about Thibs’ lack of faith in Obi but maybe he wasn’t physically at 100%. Time will tell.
It must be the first time I’m not on Thibs for playing Obi so little 🙂
About Brunson grade, he was a real leader in the 2nd half and made huge plays there, but had a poor 1st and alas he went 0-4 in OT.
Just one more made basket and it’d have been a “B” for this demanding grader… 😉
see, the scary part was that it kinda did. I mean, he’s not always going to be this bad, but this wasn’t an aberration. He does this, and he will continue to.
It wasn’t like RJ was playing within himself, getting good looks but the shots just weren’t falling. He was forcing up a lot of bullshit, playing a no-IQ brand of basketball. He’s better than that.
If he continues with this approach he’s not going to make it. Let’s hope that was an outlier and he starts playing a smarter brand of ball.
Isn’t that what we are already doing? If I am serenading anyone it’s Jim Dolan and it’s not that song.
I don’t think RJ is this bad either. And obv he is not Tatum. I was just trying to make the point I guess that Tatum kind of was what he was from Day 1 just about.
“Also IQ was a travesty last night. Somebody brought up the Knickerblogger all-stars the other day who we wasted tons of digital ink on and never amounted to anything in the league and my (semi?) hot take is that I’m still not 100% completely sure that IQ doesn’t end up on that list someday.”
I think Quickley has already surpassed the level of eminence it takes to make an all-Knickerblogger-300-thread-comment team, I mean Toure Murry was on one of mine.
However I do agree that being simply unable to generate good shots at the rim might be an intractable issue. It’s just really hard to weaponize basically any other skill as a guard if defenses don’t have to worry about that. It’s nice that he can hit difficult shots but those are supposed to be a fallback if the better options aren’t available on a given play, no one makes a full-time living on them.
Generally seeing none of the young guys contribute last night served as a harsh reminder that Leon Rose has twice decided we don’t need to add an additional first-round pick to the team. To be clear I’m obviously not saying the one game means much of anything in the grand scheme of things, but I am saying the idea that our young core is such a lock to carry us going forward that we can stop looking for ways to add to it is laughable. As much as I like them these guys all still come with serious questions, as tends to be the case with players not picked towards the top of the draft, and I’d feel much better with Bones, Eason, et al.
Eason btw with a ho hum 8 points (4-6) with 7 boards and a -1.
In 15 minutes
I don’t think anybody is reacting to RJ’s one bad game. We’re reacting to all of RJ’s previous games, most of which were also bad, plus one bad game.
—-
FWIW, Santi Aldama had a pretty nice box score against us last night and also could’ve been had in the 2021 draft.
If Eason isn’t scoring 20-30pts/36, I can live with it. But I don’t need to be happy about it.
Happy B’Day to your youngest, Z-Man! 😉
“If there was one worrisome element to last night’s game for me, it was that Obi was once again marginalized. ”
I mentioned before the game last night not to worry if Obi didn’t play a lot of minutes. He was coming off that injury and wasn’t even certain to play until the day before. But more importantly, Randle was playing really well.
“It wasn’t like RJ was playing within himself, getting good looks but the shots just weren’t falling. He was forcing up a lot of bullshit, playing a no-IQ brand of basketball. He’s better than that.”
Exactly.
It goes back to what I was whining about earlier in the thread.
Most young players that are “meh” shooters will become a little trigger shy when they get off to a bad start shooting. RJ has the opposite reaction. He gets progressively more aggressive like he’s trying to prove something. That’s how he winds up with absolutely horrendous shooting nights. You don’t want a young player to go into a coma every time he gets off to a bad start, but you don’t want him to think he’s Kobe Bryant either. I would argue that RJ shouldn’t be taking 18 shots unless he has a great matchup, let alone when they aren’t dropping.
EB point taken. And yes, Aldama (And Duren and Eason) looked great and our young guys sucked, so it was not a great night on that front.
But hey, Knox sucked and Frank is injured again, so there’s that!
Thanks, cyber!
That’s great news, Noble! Finish your admission packet quickly so you can add “Esq.”, to every signature.
The team was so tight last night – too afraid to make mistakes. One of the dangers of having depth in second and third tier players is the expectation of a quick hook after a few bad minutes.
On a day all your kids suck and all your vets play well, maybe the lesson shouldn’t be “we should get more of these guys who just finished sucking”. Especially, when the one kid who did play well was acquired with one of the picks you’re referring to.
There are another 81 games for Cam to suck, and I’m confident he will, but this is the wrong game to draw your conclusion.
Might I suggest the new handle TNFHESQ, has a certain ring to it
Welcome to the guild, TNFH!
I’m with Strat on the need for RJ to stop shooting the ball when he’s cold as ice, like last night. We probably would’ve won the game if he didn’t waste so many shots. He does a lot of other things well, he can have a low FGA night and he’ll still be valuable. Another thing i don’t want is him defending the other team’s best player. Maybe that was the reason he wasn’t good on offense, because he lost a lot of energy on the defensive end.
Not trying to stop the Aldama train, but it was ONE GAME and his stats from last year are the following: FG .402, 3P .125, FT .625
Interesting tweet about Cam’s shot chart. Maybe he is indeed improving.
https://twitter.com/_analyKnicks/status/1583150529894809600
Cam has occasionally had games like this before, and then gone right back to being a knucklehead. I will believe he has turned a corner and can justify the trade when he strings, say, a dozen of these games together.
God if Cam improves into a useful player it will catapult him to the top of the all-time most discussed Knicks player list. Especially if he improves just enough to want to keep him but not enough to justify a big contract that he would inevitable want. The thread count talking about him and the 19th pick again will get so high it will break knickerblogger permanently.
“I’m with Strat on the need for RJ to stop shooting the ball when he’s cold as ice.”
+1 on this. It’s only one game, but when it’s not happening, RJ needs to play within himself just as Randle does. Despite all his bricks, RJ did have one or two nice assists off drives. He should have looked for those all night long.
+1 also on Thibs could/should have let Mitch foul out. Hart was indeed a big part of our comeback, and he was playing well, but 40 min? With a big guy like Adams taking every loose ball, I would have liked to see Sims push/foul him around a bit and put him at the line where he was 1/4. He could/should have been put there more. Adams himself only committed one PF for the game. Should have had to fight a bit more.
Re: RJ, watching that “highlight” reel actually made me feel a little better about things. He WAS shooting in the flow of the offense; it’s just that nothing was falling from anywhere on the court.
His drives were decent, mostly on the break or off a cut, but he’s just such a bad finisher… idk if he just loses his touch up close or if it’s that when he’s off, he’s off from EVERYWHERE.
Regardless, I’m not going to overreact… YET.
One shot that I really did not like was Hart’s 3 early in the clock in crunch time. More generally, I wish the team worked a bit harder in the 4th and OT generating shots for Fournier.
It does seem like RJ is a total feast or famine player. If we’re ever contenders he’s totally going to be that guy that gets super hot during a playoff run only to pull a game 7 Starks in the Finals.
***God if Cam improves into a useful player…***
Reddish started last season with an almost identical line score. He kept it up for a few games, then regressed, lost playing time, complained about it, got pawned off on some sucker, and the return on him was used to acquire Dejounte Murray, who truly is a useful player.
At a certain point, and in year 4 we’re definitely at least approaching it, someone’s gonna have to tell RJ the Maple Mamba routine is not working. Of course, making him pretty handsomely compensated may have sent the opposite message.
I think he’s got a legitimately well-rounded game, but his scoring might be the least impressive aspect of it. To me his clearest path to being an unambiguously helpful player is aspiring to something like 17/6/4 with a .580 TS%. Maybe the decreased usage will let him be more of a defensive stopper.
To be clear I’m all for seeing if he can be more than that as long as it’s reasonably plausible, even if I think it’s unlikely, but it’s getting late early on the RJ Barrett: number one option experiment.
It’s also downright incoherent that in all other respects we’re trying to win now, yet we’re letting RJ put up these numbers. Last night is a perfect example–we probably win that game with replacement level play from his minutes. His numbers scream “tank weapon,” not “starter and high-usage player on a team with playoff aspirations.”
RJ was brutal last night, but he was missing a ton of shots he ordinarily made last year. He could regularly draw fouls driving left, and was constantly drawing contact, but the ref whistle was not friendly. He also missed wide open 3s he normally makes. By the time OT hit he was thoroughly frustrated (and tired) and started forcing things like bad RJ of yore, but I don’t think the first 12 or so shots were particularly egregious if my memory serves me right. What was egregious was putting his head down at the end of the game and bungling two fast breaks for zero points (though he probably got fouled on one of them) instead of passing to the guy behind him.
Cam and Hart were terrific, though both their OT 3s were, uh, god-awful. I think that in OT we stopped playing good offense and took ill-advised 3s (though Memphis did the same, tbf.)
Also, Brunson didn’t shoot particularly well this game, but man he’s still a difference-maker out there. He’s got that Kyle Lowry/PJ Tucker kind of energy, where you know he’s going to make a heady play right when he needs to. Last year that Ja charge would’ve been a blocking foul by Burks on a late rotation or a reach-in by Elfrid Payton or D-Rose.
That 3 point attempt from Reddish in OT had me screaming because it was precisely the type of low basketball IQ shot that he was seemingly avoiding throughout the game. I’m happy he played well and I hope he can turn things around in his career but I really don’t have much hope because of moments like this. The coaching staff will have to effectively convince him that he’s a role player who should never be taking that kind of shot and that’s hard to do with a kid that’s clearly talented and has been touted as a potential great player from an early age.
Grimes out again tomorrow, so Reddish gets at least one more game to show that he should stay in the rotation when the team is at full health. I remain deeply skeptical that this is anything more than a tease, but in a hypothetical world where he does this for a few games in a row, and Grimes is then healthy, which player loses his spot in the 10-man rotation?
I doubt Grimes is going to get Wally Pipped. Thibs loves him, and he’s our best perimeter defender. (Well, him or Deuce, but Deuce is already on outside looking in.) Rose is the ultimate Thibs Guy, though he hasn’t played well and has had small minutes of late. Thibs doesn’t seem to trust Obi, but I also doubt he trusts Cam to play smallball 4 for anything other than emergencies like last night. Fournier is our only consistent 3-pt shooter until Grimes or RJ prove otherwise. So will it be IQ? Is he redundant on a team where Rose is playing a bunch, Reddish is creating his own shot on the second unit (and can get to the basket way more easily)?
Allow me to try to frame this Cam Reddish conversation from a different lense.
His ceiling is technically a superstar MVP type player becuase he is able to make nearly impossible shots that others can’t make is true. Its also fools gold because he hasnt built the fundamentals to consistently make the routine plays. Cam hasn’t developed the ability to read the defense and make quick correct decisions. Instead has relied on his athletic talent to convert impossible shots but in the process of making simple ordinary plays, – very difficult unecesarily.
Unfortunately, you can’t run an NBA offense through a guy like Cam on a consistent basis. His game does not scale up with usage. Notice that in Cam’s best game last night he had ZERO assists. This is why guys like KP can’t be superstars. Once you double him or ask him to run a play and make a simple defensive scheme read which results shoot/pass decision, – he freezes and consistently chooses the undesirable low percentage option.
Early in their careers, scouts love prospects like Cam because of his ceiling, they’ re highly ranked and often get drafted early. GM’s and fans are continually blinded by the athletic beauty of a single Jordanesque type play or a hot shooting night. Till one day when they don’t.
Hope this helps.
I did change my evaluation of Cam last night, if only because I forgot he was even capable of scoring or rebounding well. By far and away his best Knicks game.
The spin move under the basket through traffic was gorgeous. The turnaround 3 off the baseline cut to force OT was picturesque. He’s now even with RJ in big time shots.
Still very low on Cam overall but it’s nice to be reminded why the FO took a (stupid) risk on the kid.
If you want to go superstar or bust in the draft, he perhaps… might… possibly… in a longshot… been better than the 19th pick?
Wasn’t aware of this. 😮 The tweet has a video and the misses are RJ-esque. 😛
Well done tnfh! Send bad refs to jail!
Happy Bday to your daughter Zman! It’s a blessing being around wise Libras!
;-p
After the premier dust has settled down a bit and after reading all the comments i m going to add a few thoughts
Ja being protected as an nba superstar was obvious but refs fucked up in general…way too many serious blunders…not good
Premier’s adrenaline is a big reason for not taking first game’s stats/performances very seriously.
For Me Cam’s game was a surprise but i was even more surprised by Thibs’s trust on him.
Thibs showed a very fluid rotation last night promising of a modern coaching season.
As Director NYC mentioned some athletic jordanesque moves blind scouts and give promises that many times go unfulfilled but for me sometimes these moves reveal details of athletic mentality.
Obi’s and Cam’s Dunks in traffic were one of that.
They showed balls and consciousness of athletic superiority.
Obi and Cam have the ability to dominate in the paint cause of their athleticism. Want to believe that these dunks were a trailer of what’s coming.
For those of you wondering why Obi didn’t get a lot of minutes, maybe it has something to do with this that Fred Katz wrote about a week ago:
And Obi’s three point shooting in preseason was terrible.
If the point of taking Obi at #8 was to park him out at the 3pt line, there were much better options available.
Last 2 minute report is out. It was all deemed as correct calls, except a loose ball foul not called against Hart with 1:45 left to play in regulation. In overtime, Ja stepped out of bounds and wasn’t called with 7.2 seconds left to play and Fournier also stepped out of bounds on the last play when launching the 3P. Ja’s block that as we know was a goaltend and a foul is not on this report because it happened with 4:13 still to play in OT.
It’s clear Obi isn’t supposed to stay “parked at the three point line”. But if that is where he ends up because the Knicks are in a half court offense it would be nice if he makes open threes. It’s not like he has lots of one on one moves down low or can create offense with beautiful passing.
Obi didn’t play because Randle was brilliant.
Also, in preseason, Obi was shooting 3s off of curls rather than just kick outs. Likely just a skill he was working on rather than an asset we’ll see this year, but it shows confidence in his shot.
At the very least, Obi’s 3pt shooting from preseason shouldn’t be assumed as his longterm spot-up ability.
“It’s clear Obi isn’t supposed to stay “parked at the three point line”. But if that is where he ends up because the Knicks are in a half court offense it would be nice if he makes open threes. It’s not like he has lots of one on one moves down low or can create offense with beautiful passing.”
I agree on all counts, but some here think we’d be better off with him starting (after Leon dumped Randle even if it took sweetener) and yet we are discussing that he not particularly good at hitting 3’s, making moves down low, or passing?
Putting Obi in the corner has always baffled me.
If Thibs can draw up a last second play for Cam Reddish he can figure out an intelligent way to get the most oit of Obi. Right?
Just let him be our Brandon Clarke
“Just let him be our Brandon Clarke”
You mean a 19mpg energy player off the bench? Wasn’t that kind of his role last year?
Not sure I can unsee that stat about how bad AD’s shooting is
And yeah, give him 20 minutes of dunking and doing cool shit and 7 minutes of corner time….
Yanks flashing the leather…
Westbrook shoots layups like RJ.
AD shoots midrange shots like RJ.
Westbrook also shoots threes like RJ.
Unfortunately, Yanks not flashing the lumber…
Raven has written the lyrics to the chorus of the hypothetic song “Just Like RJ” by Erykah Badu.
AD looks like he has an injury to his back….
Lakers are dookie…
AD has returned…
Westbrook having a perfect shooting night…
This game is also reallllly booooring…
I guess the whole “get ring chasing veterans to sign for the minimum” thing has expired for the Lakers. What a bunch of no-name stiffs they have filling out the roster. Lonnie Walker is probably their third best player.
clips fell asleep…might get burned now…
Westbrook might get traded tomorrow.
this last 3 minutes has been brutal…horrible execution
And now Z-Man has written the bridge.
I legit don’t get what the Lakers are doing. Like, how can you be so bad at putting shooters around Lebron? How could anyone in the world ever think that Russell Westbrook made sense on this team? And then they’ve somehow stuck with him for a SECOND horrible season? What is this team doing? Are they seriously saying, “Nah, nah, when Lebron is 39, then we’ll try to win”? This is pathetic. Anthony Davis is pathetic. The whole situation is pathetic. Except for Lebron. That dude is still amazing at thirty-fucking-eight years old. It’s bonkers how good he is and he is going to wilt on this pathetic piece of shit team.
It’s my fault.
Not so long ago commenting
On how steady and reliable
RJ has been
But RJ…man I can’t get over how ugly that was.
Null from long range
Victory in that loss, but RJ… Jesus.
Westbrook shoots layups like RJ.
AD shoots midrange shots like RJ
Westbrook also shoots threes like RJ.
Started forcing things like bad RJ of yore,
Welcome to the guild
The Maple Mamba routine is not working.
Can we sue Dolan for all our years of sorrow?
Lest I get accused of undue skepticism,
Make me think that RJ did exactly what he swore he wasn’t going to do
If he continues with this approach he’s not going to make it.
Start suing Dolan immediately
Westbrook shoots layups like RJ.
AD shoots midrange shots like RJ
Westbrook also shoots threes like RJ.
Lakers are dookie…
AD has returned…
Westbrook having a perfect shooting night…
This game is sooooo boring…
Westbrook might get traded tonight.
RJ last night it felt like a guy fixing his bayonet to attack a machine gun emplacement.
Apologies for the hackneyed similies.
But he skitters around like a bat with rabies
It seems my amygdala is fucking up the job
Concentration and comprehension
My frontal cortex is supposed to be doing…
Obviously it is an illusion,
the pin is approaching the bubble…
but for one night we had a burgeoning Pip.
So pulling a “cold hand,” unless he is sick
seems unmathematical
the Morant blatant foul on the chase down block
It’s littered with the carcasses of a lot of young players.
Thing that really bugs me about RJ
When he puts his head down
He was all head down
And damn the torpedoes
Westbrook shoots layups like RJ.
AD shoots midrange shots like RJ
Westbrook also shoots threes like RJ.
Last night didn’t drastically change my priors.
If I am serenading anyone it’s Jim Dolan and it’s not that song.
*(JUST LIKE RJ, by Max, Owen, JK, Bo, Raven, Z-Man, geo, Silky, and Noble Face Humper, esq.)*
I imagined this to the groove of a Better Call Tyrone, but now that I’ve read it, maybe we pitch it to Kid Creole and the Coconuts.
you are a madman sir…and, i really like that about you…
Congrats!
Congrats TNFH!
That’s amazing Donnie! 😀 You should now hire a great musician to make the music, do you know anyone? 😉 😛
Donnie!!! Very funny