[www.basketballnews.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 8:31:00 PM
Knicks surpass Lakers as most in-demand NBA team on StubHub BasketballNews.com
[www.manchestertimes.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 8:10:23 PM
Pacers Knicks Basketball | National Sports | manchestertimes.com Manchestertimes
[empiresportsmedia.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 5:58:57 PM
Immanuel Quickley’s defense is underrated, says Knicks coach Tom Thibodeau Empire Sports Media
[dailyknicks.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 5:00:00 PM
Tom Thibodeau can’t disregard Obi Toppin’s strong push for increased Knicks role Daily Knicks
[www.si.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 5:00:00 PM
Knicks Preseason Profile: What Will Isaiah Hartenstein Bring to New York? Sports Illustrated
[nypost.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 4:23:00 PM
Kemba Walker ‘just waiting’ as NBA season starts without him New York Post
[www.sandiegouniontribune.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 3:33:52 PM
Pistons loaded with talent from Ivey to Bogdanovic to Duren The San Diego Union-Tribune
[nbaanalysis.net] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 2:50:07 PM
This Bulls-Knicks Trade Features Derrick Rose NBA Analysis Network
[www.yardbarker.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 2:36:48 PM
East Notes: Sixers, James Harden, Knicks, Nets Yardbarker
[www.washingtonpost.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 2:35:00 PM
With Brunson aboard, Knicks feel they have their point guard The Washington Post
[sneakernews.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 2:00:37 PM
The Air Jordan 1 Mid Appears In Knicks-Friendly Colors Sneaker News
[www.hoopsrumors.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 1:54:00 PM
New York Notes: O’Neale, Nets, Bower, Knicks, Grimes hoopsrumors.com
[www.si.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 12:10:28 PM
Knicks Preseason Profile: Mitchell Robinson Paints Strong Future Sports Illustrated
[www.nba.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 10:03:06 AM
Flex Bank NBA.com
[www.sportsvideo.org] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 9:45:00 AM
MSG Networks Takes Home 10 New York Emmy Awards Sports Video Group
[theknickswall.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 9:06:29 AM
Division Preview: Brooklyn Nets The Knicks Wall
[dailyknicks.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 8:00:00 AM
Here’s who will be the difference maker for Knicks this season Daily Knicks
[www.postingandtoasting.com] — Tuesday, October 11, 2022 8:00:00 AM
The Knicks owe their fans more than wins Posting and Toasting
70 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.10.12)”
And of course Josh Donaldson hid in the trainers room when reporters came in after the game. Fake tough guys are the absolute worst.
Seriously.
In his defense, the second base running play was completely standard. He should be near first base assuming that ball gets caught so he doesn’t get doubled off.
But yeah, classic clown show
Not totally sure I want to blame Donaldson so much. He hit the ball well, the fans are going crazy, his 1st base coach is giving him a high five — he thought it was out.
And honestly – looking at the replay 100x — I am pretty sure it hits the top of the wall and then bounces off the blue Bud Light vendor box, then back into play. It should’ve been a home run.
The other play – not his fault at all. What else is he supposed to do?
Yeah, I think Frank is right. But Alan is also right about Donaldson being a ****.
Cyber, I actually considered all of those things.
1) re: Julius, I factored in a sense that Thibs is going to feel compelled to play Obi more and Julius less, mainly because of Obi’s improvement but at least partly to placate the crowd at MSG so they don’t start booing Randle and/or chanting for Obi when Julius is on the court. Thibs must know that he has detractors in Leon’s Team of Rivals and that massive unrest at MSG will not bode well for him. He must know that Obi is the most popular guy on the team with fans and Julius is the least popular. So I think he’s going to go with a true two-unit approach with some mixing and matching where minutes will vary game to game with Julius and Obi getting more or less depending on who has it going. I also think he will not keep Julius in as much when games are lopsided.
2) Even with Thibs’ statement that Obi/Randle doesn’t work, I am guessing that he will tinker with it for 3 minutes a half. But yeah, that’s just a guess.
3) I don’t really buy into the positional definitions the way you set it up above. The league has gone in the direction of positionless basketball. Thibs alluded to it in his press conference yesterday. He said that most lineups are a PG, 3 wings and a big. I think there will be times when the three wings are RJ, Grimes and someone else. In other words, I disagree with your assumption that Fournier and IQ are playing the same position for 48 minutes and RJ and Grimes are playing the same position for 48 minutes. In fact, we just spent an entire offseason discussing whether Grimes should replace Fournier in the starting lineup. So you kind of have to think of all 4 of those guys being analogs, with RJ overlapping into the 4 and IQ overlapping into the 1.
Anyway, it’s fun to think about. Maybe I injected some pollyanna juice into my projections, but hey, hope is a good thing!
I’ll cut him slack on the second one. But he has a LONG history of pimping on non-homers and either being thrown out or not advancing as far as he should. And he’s a “play the right way” red-ass with other guys. Just full of you know what in every possible way.
Grimes is out tonight to be cautious. Feels like Fournier is at least going to be the starter when the season begins.
Meanwhile, does Thibs again go with Cam as the starter? Does he finally give IQ a chance with that group? Deuce?
“I don’t really know why we should care that Randle is a better bad first option than Obi even if we accept it for the sake of argument, because we all agree Randle is indeed a bad first option. We’ve basically been begging Randle to play…more like Obi. Maybe just play Obi.”
If I were to say I have team with Chamberlain, Jabbar, Shaq, Ewing and Olajuwon, everyone would quickly understand the problem with playing that 5 team lineup even though they were the best 5 players on the team. There would be skills missing that are required to have the offense function well. You’d probably be better off with an average PG and a pretty good outside shooter to replace a couple of them even if they weren’t as good as the players they were replacing.
At a much lower and less extreme level, the Knicks needed certain skills in their starting lineup that Randle possesses that Obi does not (or at least did not).
Granted, his decision making was very poor at times. We would have liked him to do a better job in that area, but there’s no way you could run the offense through Obi, ask him to create shots off the dribble, ask him to pass out of double teams. and ask him to score in ways that Randle had to in order for us to function. He would be utterly incapable of those things.
What Randle was doing was not desirable in basketball terms, but it was necessary for “someone” to do it because we had no PG, little space, and not much ability to create off the dribble in that starting lineup. He at least has some ability to do those necessary things given we didn’t have that option elsewhere.
This year is an entirely different situation.
No we have a PG that can both run the offense and score. So it makes no sense to run the offense through Randle given he’s not that good at it to begin with (just better than Obi at it). He can be a secondary option for playmaking and not have to force as much.
If Randle’s usage remains really high and he’s still doing dumb things as often, I’ll be the most vocal complainer. He almost has to be more efficient this year.
Yeah, it’s certainly more balanced than what i think Thibs will do. But i’ve seen a lot of quotes from Thibs raving about the young guns, so maybe he’s about to change a little. We’ll have to wait and see.
I think it’s highly likely that Randle plays better and smarter this year, for some of the reasons that strat mentioned and for self-preservation. I’m banking on him having taken the brutal treatment from fans and the press to heart and to have a different approach. I am certain that his BS from last year was processed in candid conversations with Thibs and the FO. I’m expecting his 3pt% to uptick into at least the low 30’s, his TOV rate to decrease, his assisted baskets to increase, and his 2pt% to increase. I’m expecting a TS% in the mid-high .500’s. I’m expecting a better relationship with his teammates. I’m expecting Thibs to play him less minutes, especially if he’s doing dumb things out there, or just having an off game.
I get it, Strat, but no one needs anyone whose skills produce negative outcomes.
Deuce McBride and Immanuel Quickley possess some of those skills that we needed in our starting lineup, too. We didn’t need to get them from the PF position.
Anyway, that’s all past. It seems we have one of those rare instances of full agreement: we can understand last year, but if it happens again this year, look out.
btw I missed last game entirely so haven’t seen the team play in real time since last Tuesday. Will also miss Friday’s game. So really looking forward to to tonight!
And resting Grimes one more game to be sure is a smart move, let tht foot heal completely so that it doesn’t become a nagging thing.
re: Randle, digressing to the human side of things, even though much of it was self-exacerbated, I have real empathy for what he went through last year, particularly the part about his love for his older son. Julius probably got spoiled by the adulation of 2020-21, and expected it to continue forever. That expectation probably fed down to his son. As a dad, I can feel for how much it must have hurt to have his son sitting there at MSG and hearing the fans boo his dad. Julius alluded to that after his “STFU” incident, and how hard it was to explain the fan’s reaction to his son, and I think that part was very heartfelt.
That doesn’t excuse Julius…he’s responsible for both his subpar performances and for having unrealistic expectations for fan reactions to them, and also for resenting the fans’ preference for Obi. No one is going to MSG worried about Julius’ feelings or about his son’s feelings. Given what he’s getting paid, if you can’t stand the heat, either get out of the kitchen, or turn the heat down with your play.
But I’m a big believer in second chances. I’ve been given many in my life, and am very amenable to giving them to others. I think Julius deserves every opportunity to show that he has learned a critical lesson: don’t take anything for granted.
For better or for worse, any relative success of this “hybrid” rebuild depends in no small part on Julius being a plus NBA starter. I personally think he has it in him to learn from his many mistakes last year and to adjust his game and his mindset accordingly. I don’t expect perfection, just a bonafide effort to embrace a different role and to trust his teammates. I can live with some 3-12 nights, just not a bunch of 7-25’s, or even 11-25’s. When he has it going, sure, go for 50! It’s more what he does when he doesn’t have it going. And what Thibs does and JR’s reaction to it.
Zach Lowe League Pass article describes one measure thusly:
STYLE: Where are they on the continuum from “Golden State Warriors beautiful game” to “Julius Randle just took four jab steps and launched an 18-footer”?
Both JR and Julius have to be better than last year. As Z-man said, Julius just needs to adjust his game and mindset. JR, on the other hand, has to improve his skills.
That is the key to the season as well as whether a tear down and ditch the hybrid is needed
“BernieErnie says:
October 12, 2022 at 11:25
Both JR and Julius have to be better than last year. As Z-man said, Julius just needs to adjust his game and mindset. JR, on the other hand, has to improve his skills.”
You meant Julius and RJ, right?
I’m not against 2nd chances, i even think it’s a good strategy to not waste good assets based on a single bad season. That said, Randle’s case is on the extreme side of things because we have a backup we want to promote to starter, and Randle’s bad season was way worse than playing bad, and it might be hard to make it go away unless he puts on an all-NBA season again. The margin of error that he has will be very hard to manage, but hey the front-office decided to keep him, so let’s hope for the best. I’m not sold on the success of this particular 2nd chance.
LOL, probably. Julius and JR have to change the exact same things, that’s a fact. 😀
“That said, Randle’s case is on the extreme side of things because we have a backup we want to promote to starter, and Randle’s bad season was way worse than playing bad, and it might be hard to make it go away unless he puts on an all-NBA season again.”
But isn’t this really about giving Thibs a second chance more than Julius? All Julius can do is play the best he can when his number is called. If he plays poorly or selfishly and Thibs continues to call his number while Obi rots, isn’t that no longer a Julius problem?
OTOH, if he plays well and the team is exceeding Vegas predicitions, should Thibs give a shit about promoting Obi to starter?
What I’m trying to say is that so long as Thibs is coach, and so long as he preaches winning coming before anything else, shouldn’t we only hold him accountable for making decisions that aren’t conducive to winning? Rather than about what we would personally like to see?
I don’t think Randle has to be an all-NBA candidate to outplay Obi. If you do, you’re essentially implying that Obi is close to being an all-NBA player, aren’t you?
I’d like to see Deuce get more minutes. See if he can knock down shots.
I’m definitely concerned that Grimes will be an “if only he were healthy” story. I doubt he’ll ever be a superstar, but high- level role player to borderline just below borderline all-star seems attainable.
You meant Julius and RJ, right
Eh, yes. And did not know that RJ are not the initial letters of his first and middle name but rather Rowan Junior.
Mistakes are the seeds from which trees of knowledge grow.
One of the legitimate criticisms of Thibs is that he seems to play favorites. Randle gets an incredibly long leash, will not get yanked from a game no matter how badly he plays, no matter how many dumb plays he makes, while Obi gets the death stare and gets yanked immediately if he misses a rotation or something.
So yes, he’s a “winning over all else” coach, but he does have some blind spots. And I don’t even think it’s a vets vs. kids thing. He has “his guys” and if you’re not one of them he keeps you on a much shorter leash.
If Obi outplays Randle this season but Randle gets 2x Obi’s minutes, that’s a bummer.
RJ & JR will be better just by virtue of taking fewer shots.
Not as in their efficiency will go up, as in fewer shots at shit TS% is better value
How long does it take a “sore foot” to heal? I smell another injury cover-up.
“gkhenman says:
October 12, 2022 at 11:53
How long does it take a “sore foot” to heal? I smell another injury cover-up.”
Thibs and Grimes both indicated that he did everything in practice yesterday so it legit feel precautionary because there’s lingering soreness associated with ramping up. If he doesn’t play at all on Friday I will be more worried about a cover-up.
But I’m a big believer in second chances. I’ve been given many in my life, and am very amenable to giving them to others.
Mistakes are the seeds from which trees of knowledge grow.
KB’rs bringing the zen on a wednesday – NICE!!!!!
I smell another injury cover-up.
What, when your foot is a bit sore don’t you immediately put on a walking boot?
it really makes you wonder what the roster thinking was before the beginning of last season…kemba kind of crashed in to our laps…
why in the world go so long without emphasizing adding competent point guard play to the roster…unless you want to lose, in which case, yeah, run out elfrid, mudiay, DSJ, frank, kemba…
started season 4 of Mr Robot…what a fun show to binge…sure, repetitive as heck, bit of a dearth of story…but even beyond the work rami malek does, excellent performances from other members of the cast…
in particular BD Wong and Carly Chaikin are delights…
i’m gonna try hard to go slow on the final season…
still having trouble buying christian slater as mr robot, he does great as edward alderson, but, never felt the “danger” of violence from mr robot…
just kept hearing clarence worley speaking…
Do I look like a beautiful blonde with big big tits and an ass that tastes like French vanilla ice cream?
“What, when your foot is a bit sore don’t you immediately put on a walking boot?”
What, when you have a serious foot injury do you fully participate in a Thibs practice within two weeks?
Clean slate, short leash. That’s my mantra for this season.
i hear principal z-man in there 🙂
BE, not to say that they don’t cover up injuries, just that I’m not too worried about this one.
That’s cold.
I haven’t checked read his article yet, but the one team I’d probably check out on league pass this year is the Blazers. I really want to see how Dame plays with these new guys who are all pretty good.
So based on Advanced Kemba calculations, a very washed-up, injury-prone Damian Lillard should be on our roster in 2025-2026. Looking forward to that.
Zach Lowe is good:
Donnie Walsh, I didn’t know you were a Bulls fan:
“https://www.cracked.com/article_35479_cracked-dunks-on-the-nba-why-careers-die-on-the-new-york-knicks.html”
Pretty funny Cracked Dunks article. And to go with the washed-up Dame idea, it has a list of good players who washed ashore at MSG at the tattered end of their careers:
A Brief List of Legends Who Had Horrible Twilight Years in New York
Steve Francis. Penny Hardaway. Tracy McGrady. Rasheed Wallace. Joakim Noah. Dikembe Mutombo. Glen Rice. Chauncey Billups. Mike Bibby. Baron Davis.
Randle will bounce back and play better AND Obi will get more playing time. I predict both of these things will happen. I also predict that even though the Knicks will be a winning basketball team this year and both of these things will happen, there will still be a very vocal contigency that will want Randle gone.
But I think Thibs will keep him on a shorter leash. Both because of last season and because he will trust to play Obi more minutes.
No, i was only talking about the success of Randle’s 2nd chance. Let’s say he has one bad game in the first games of the season, probably fans will turn against him instantly, because last season is still fresh in the memory. Will he react like an adult and endure the criticism/booing? That was what i thought was a risk i wouldn’t take. And if we had opted to trade him in the offseason, we were in a good situation to do that because we have a young PF (deserving) to take his place. I guess they probably tried it and couldn’t find a deal. In the end, he stayed so i’m hoping he took his lesson from last season and is going to behave properly. We have until the trade deadline to keep monitoring the PF situation and by then it’ll be more clear if Randle is a new man or if Obi is still outplaying him and we should move on even if the move has a cost.
yikes, i don’t remember mutomba at all…
i thought rasheed played okay for us…
I’ve really liked how Randle has played these first two pre-season games.
However, I really hope he leaves his kid at home this year.
warriors look like butt for that draymond decision…
no way to justify that decision…and folks wonder why guns show up in the locker room…
good on jordan for passing on the whole eye for an eye…still, kind of seems like “justice” is left to the players…
davante adams just got charged for assault for shoving someone after a game…
I distinctly recall a 36 hour period in which I was sure that if we could claim Metta World Peace off waivers it would take us to the next level.
I don’t expect Dame to make it here, though. I’m high on the Trail Blazers. I reckon they’re about to begin a strong second act with Lillard.
– The trio of Dame-Grant-Simons is a very good starting point.
– They’ve got strong supporting players in Hart, Payton, Nurkic.
– They have two wild cards: Shaedon Sharpe and Keon Johnson both look really good.
– They owe their pick this year to the Bulls (lotto protected) but otherwise have all their picks and are in great position to acquire another star.
That’s how you hybrid.
If i recall it correctly, a lot of these players were here on expiring contracts. Some were already on the twilight so we were aware what we were “buying”, like Baron, Bibby, Mutombo and Penny. T-Mac we had a little hope that maybe he could be 80% of his prime, and was a total failure. I agree with Geo, Sheed played OK for us, but i think he was always injured. The #2 of this list for me is Francis, FO really thought it was a good move to trade for him. Isiah, Isiah! But #1 has to be the player signed by the best POBO that doesn’t know jack sh*t about contracts (a minor thing in GMing, right? LOL). We paid a lot of money to Noah for 4 years, from which he was only with the team for 2 seasons and played in only 53 games. But i’ll always have those hilarious FTs to remember. 😀
A strong second half. Well, in most musicals, the second half is much shorter than the first half. Since Dame is 32, I suspect that will be the case with Portland too.
I went to the first TMAC game against OKC. That was right when OKC was starting to be REALLY good. The TMAC experiment was a failure but that first game was so much fun. He had a great vintage TMAC game. At one point the crowd was cheering “we want TMAC” and Dantoni put him back in. Then Durant hit a dagger at the end to beat us. But for one night we had vintage TMAC and it was glorious.
Noah’s finest: https://media.tenor.com/McUcJ-Xw-bIAAAAd/joakim-noah-basketball.gif
From the Cracked piece, reproduced here in an effort to cheer Jowles up:
…but culture starts at the top, and Dolan’s Knicks have always resembled him: a false sense of entitlement, undeserving of the attention they command, unpleasant to be around, and a vacuous energy suck that represents the bloat of a dying capitalist empire who thinks it will always be the best despite all evidence to support that not being the case.
I vaguely remember Jon Abbey being really excited we got Baron Davis
holy shit today I learned I’M A FUCKIN KNICK
An interesting question is what Randle would have to do to legitimately change the mind of people like myself who think we’re best off trading him asset neutrally and going with Obi full-time. The flip side of the question is interesting too–what would Obi have to do to convince his skeptics that he’s the better option?
The theoretical benefits Randle has over Obi are shooting, playmaking, and to a lesser extent maybe some defensive versatility.
I say “theoretically” because we’re not really sure about any of this, and that’s what the Randle skeptics’ case boils down to–it’s not clear even a much-improved Randle is better than Obi.
I think the best way to square Randle’s 2020-2021 season with the rest of his career from a shooting perspective is to just look at his career 3PT%–until he proves otherwise the safe assumption is probably that he’s a 31-33% 3PT shooter. Obi seems likely to at least be able to match that soon, and perhaps even overtake it at similar volume.
I do think Randle is a good passer, which IMO is somewhat distinct from being a good “playmaker.” He definitely has the physical ability to make passes that most bigs don’t, but for this to be an asset he needs to actually use it well. I think he makes some of his best passes when, for example, he’s running in transition with a full head of steam. I mostly groan when he tries to be a playmaker in the half court.
Defensively, Randle probably has some extra versatility and is a little more mobile, but is also more prone to laziness and is slower in general. I think Obi can get to a point where this is a wash.
So for Randle to change my mind he’d have to do some or all of the following:
1) shoot well enough for the 3PT shot to be a legitimate asset, let’s say 35%
2) use his passing skills when they actually help the offense, as opposed to in the assist hunting fashion we saw too much of last year
3) return to the at-rim efficiency from his pre-Knicks days
4) cut out most of the midrange garbage as long as there are fans in the stands
5) cut out the lazy defensive lapses
To make the Randle/Obi question interesting, I think Randle needs to average something like 18-20/9-10/3-4 per 36 with a TS% at least approaching .600.
That’s a fairly high bar, but consider that as a second year player Obi was already at 19/8/2 with a 61% TS. I’m bullish on his ability to build on that, seeing as how he improved a ton between his rookie and sophomore years, there’s tons of low hanging fruit as a 3PT shooter (so far he shoots a lot and he shoots poorly, so he can clean up his efficiency by either improving or just cutting out the 3PA), and I’m somewhat inclined to believe a more consistent role would benefit him across the board.
even bigger butt on the warriors for reaching out to jordan to get his input on the discipline…
i get player “councils” and stuff, but to put your employee in that kind of situation is utterly feckless…
Hahahahaha
The biggest difference between Obi and Julius is that Obi is almost entirely an off-the-ball player. He was assisted on 82.5% of his 2pt FGs and on 100% of his 3pt FGs. Julius was at 36.3% and 80%, respectively.
There are other differences as well. 23.5% of Obi’s fgs were dunks, while Julius took only 4%. Julius had a much higher DReb% than Obi. And, of course, his usage was much higher.
What remains to be seen is whether Julius can become more of an off-the-ball player and if Obi can become more of an on-the-ball player. Only then can they be fairly compared as offensive players.
With Brunson on board and Rose healthy, it is likely that more of Randle’s baskets will be assisted and his usage will drop a point or two. So they will definitely be closer in roles and more amenable to a fair comparison. I don’t see Obi being on the ball much more than he was last year, which is fine.
To me, that’s the key for Julius….reverting to being off the ball significantly more than he has been thus far as a Knick. I’d like to see over 50% of his 2pt baskets and 90% of 3pt makes being assisted.
I wouldn’t mind having Poole here, maybe his availability changes after this. Dray won’t learn his lesson if he keeps getting away with it.
By gawd, is that Deuce McBride’s music?!?!?!
Deuce time! 🙂
Doesn’t Deuce deserve a game thread?
Game thread?
Brunson burned a couple times by TJ.
TJ.
Hope that’s not something we’ll watch all season…
Oh man, preseason game thread?
I am on it
oof the D is … not
Lazy start, very “preseasonal”, Thibs didn’t like it…
That backcourt just doesn’t work on D.
I think the beard makes Thibs look a bit younger and….slimmer, somehow.
“To me, that’s the key for Julius….reverting to being off the ball significantly more than he has been thus far as a Knick. I’d like to see over 50% of his 2pt baskets and 90% of 3pt makes being assisted.”
IMO the stats become less relevant when players are forced into roles by NECESSITY as opposed to coaching desire or player skill.
The offense was run through Randle because Burks was our PG for much of the season. lmao
You can’t run an offense through Burks Mitchell, or Fournier at all.
You can try to run it through RJ and Randle, but not because they are equipped to do it or because Thibs wanted to do it. It was because we literally had zero PGs on the team with Rose out and Kemba unplayable. Randle and RJ were the least bad options.
He’s still going to dribble a lot and create now because he can (which is a good attribute to have because you need that on every team), but he’s certainly capable of catch and shoot, pulling up etc..
New thread is up