[bleacherreport.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 7:09:01 PM
Report: Lakers Discussed 4-Team Trade with Knicks, Jazz Before Donovan Mitchell Deal Bleacher Report
[bleacherreport.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 5:37:05 PM
Is Russell Westbrook the Missing Piece to Knicks-Jazz Donovan Mitchell Trade? Bleacher Report
[bleacherreport.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 5:37:05 PM
Knicks Rumors: Front-Office Structure Seen as ‘Confusing’ by Those Around NBA Bleacher ReportKnicks’ Front Office Hierarchy Considered Confusing By League Sources RealGM.comHow the Knicks’ fumbled its long pursuit of Donovan Mitchell New York Post High IQ? Knicks Could Give Immanuel Quickley ‘Increased Role’ Sports IllustratedNBA preseason bold predictions: New York Knicks won’t make the playoffs Sir Charles in ChargeView Full Coverage on Google News
[dailyknicks.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 5:00:00 PM
Will Knicks’ RJ Barrett prove NBA executives wrong this season? Daily KnicksKnicks’ RJ Barrett already jelling with Jalen Brunson: ‘Gravitate toward him’ New York Post Understanding RJ Barrett’s uniquely heavy burden with the Knicks BasketballNews.comRJ Barrett after Knicks extension: I’m trying to be a man now Empire Sports MediaRJ Barrett speaks on massive $120 million extension with Knicks ClutchPointsView Full Coverage on Google News
[www.si.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 2:21:49 PM
New York Knicks Not Showing Interest In Three Former All-Stars Sports Illustrated1 advantage Knicks have over every Atlantic Division team Daily KnicksKnicks Players with Most at Stake During 2022-23 NBA Season Bleacher ReportHow Knicks could fill final roster spots with major trade still possible New York Post New York Knicks schedule: 5 standout games for the 2022-23 NBA season SportsnautView Full Coverage on Google News
[fansided.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 1:58:00 PM
Donovan Mitchell hints we’re not getting the full story with the Knicks FanSided
[heavy.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 1:08:17 PM
Proposed Trade Would See Nets Ship Kyrie Irving to Knicks Heavy.com
[heavy.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 12:24:19 PM
Knicks Could Target Golden State Warriors Star: Insider Heavy.com
[basketball.realgm.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 10:49:00 AM
Knicks’ Front Office Hierarchy Considered Confusing By League Sources RealGM.com
[www.bxtimes.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 10:18:42 AM
Mott Hall Charter gives Bronx welcome to new Knicks point guard Jalen Brunson ? Bronx Times Bronx Times
[dailyknicks.com] — Friday, September 16, 2022 10:00:00 AM
Here’s how Knicks’ Cam Reddish can become Tom Thibodeau’s ‘guy’ Daily Knicks
52 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.09.17)”
Hmmm…comparing Cam to Luol Deng? Interesting.
The links today go in favor of Noble and the “we’re directionless” team. RealGM and Bleacher Report are echoing Berman’s words that some around the league find our FO hierarchy confusing. And we made it to 4th in the most regrettable trades of the last 3 seasons with “Knicks Give Up a 1st-round Pick to Not Play Cam Reddish”.
I still think we have to wait a little longer to see where this leads us, but i agree that we’ve made good moves and bad moves, and we need to do a lot more of the former if we want to build a winner team.
Looks like the most regrettable trades link vanished somehow, so for you to understand my comment, here it is.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10048802-the-most-regrettable-nba-trades-of-the-last-3-seasons
And can’t miss GM Ainge is there on 2nd place with “Celtics Dump Desmond Bane to Dodge the Luxury Tax”. What a great move.
I read the article about regrettable trades. I agree with Westbrook and Bane being regrettable. Reddish is not in that ballpark and may not turn out to be regrettable at all. I just don’t understand the article’s logic. This is an article that says “ with an inconsistent role causing his three-point accuracy to dip to 25.8 percent. ” as though giving players playing time makes them shoot better? If that’s the case, the Lakers should play Westbrook 48 minutes a game and that will solve a lot of problems. And then the article suggests the Knicks could “save face” by playing Reddish more minutes this season? Does anyone want a coach who puts players in the lineup to save face?
We traded a middling first round pick (at best possible value) to try out a player we thought had potential. Picks like that often give players who don’t work out, but you still make the pick. The gamble on Reddish was reasonable and actually hasn’t failed yet either. We don’t even know if it’s regrettable yet but somehow it’s one of the most regrettable trades of the last three years?
People around the league can say what they want in the aftermath of the Donovan Mitchell affair, and surely Leon should listen and refine how the management team was perceived. But considering that the Cavs gave up 3 good young players, three unprotected picks out to 2029, and two unprotected pick swaps, there is no way that the Knicks should have attempted to beat that offer. The deadline given to the Jazz to accept an RJ-based offer was the right thing to do.
Other reasonably good moves: Drafting IQ and Grimes, clearing the salary of Burks, Noel and Kemba (even with the quibbles about the cost), re-signing Mitch and the descending contract, signing Brunson and Hartenstein were all favorable moves.
Hiring Thibs to coach a rebuilding team, the trade-out of #19, using a protected pick for Cam, trading out of a second rounder in 2020, re-signing all the mercs except Bullock in 2021 off-season were all bad moves.
You can quibble about signing Julius to an extension rather than trading him at his peak value (or not extending him), but it seemed like a reasonable move to most here and elsewhere at the time. Same with extending RJ.
But overall I like where we are at heading into this season and am looking forward to seeing what the rotation looks like on opening day. I am also glad that we have the resources that we have rather than Donovan Mitchell and hardly anything left to deal.
Yeah, even though the Reddish trade was not smart, it hardly falls into the category of “most regrettable trades.” The jury is still out on that one, and althought the verdict will not likely be favorable, the “not play him” narrative is not true. He got hurt. No one knows how much PT he would have gotten when Thibs loosened the reins towards the end of the season.
If I had to give an overall grade to this FO from day 1 to this point, it would be a B-. Something in the C’s would be fair, but maybe I’m grading on a bit of a curve based on how much I like the players on the team and that the hallmark moves haven’t been made yet.
If the Mitchell trade had gone down, I would be dropping the grade to a D.
Tough for me to grade the FO on THIS off-season but should be easy to do by Xmas. Resigning Mitch is probably a B, getting Hartenstein could be B to an A, the moves to get Brunson could be B- to A+, extending RJ could be C to B+, and keeping Julius could be A thru F.
Knicks fans are the only fans on earth that after a relentless series of incompetent coaches will complain about hiring a 2 time COTY (should be 3) because he’s not the coach they wanted to rebuild with. All coaches have a few warts. Thib’s strengths massively outweigh his warts.
The plan was obviously NOT to bring back Burks, Nerlens, and add Kemba and Fournier. They learned the hard way that cap space is not enough (just like our previous managements). But once you have that kind of space and strike out on your targets, you have to put something into it. The idea of renting cap space for a pick is a possibility, but you have to find that kind of deal and you have to be willing to take on an even worse contract and probably lose even more flexibility.
The standard can’t be perfection. That doesn’t exist. In fact, anything that looks even close elsewhere was probably just dumb luck. A LOT of what’s going on is luck.
The big mistake was giving those vets 2+1’s instead of 1+1’s even if they overpaid a bit in the first year. That way they truly would have maintained cap space.
considering where they began, B- sounds petty fair…
not exactly clean work, the end result though is acceptable/reasonable…
I don’t think this idea that bc we hired Thibs we couldn’t rebuild has any validity.
It was entirely possible to hire Thibs and not then go sign Payton, Noel, Burks. We also could have traded Randle & Bullock before the season. It’s not like he was going to get a great offer to coach anywhere else after his stint in Minnesota.
The decision to hybrid was Leon’s from the start. He never wanted to rebuild, even though he had the perfect opportunity to in the empty arena season. He wanted to put wins on the board right away.
i may not be all that tuned in too well, but – has our “cap room” had any noticeable restrictive impact on our talent acquisition the last few years?
It’s the reason we had to trade out of the lottery this year in order to sign Brunson, Geo. We wouldn’t have had the cap space to sign him with a draft choice’s cap hold.
“We traded a middling first round pick (at best possible value) to try out a player we thought had potential. Picks like that often give players who don’t work out, but you still make the pick.”
When you make a first-round pick, you have four seasons to gather data before you have to make a decision about their next contract. If you pick a good player, it’s extraordinarily likely they’ll be a valuable player for you considering their salary during their rookie-scale deal.
We traded those benefits for Reddish, who we had 1.5 seasons to evaluate and obviously had not given us any value as a member of the Atlanta Hawks. We proceeded to throw 33% of that time in the trash (yes, Reddish got injured, no, we did not take advantage of the evaluation time we were given–he played 20+ minutes twice).
The situations are very, very different.
Having said all that, sure, it would also be a blunder on the part of the front office if they instead made a first-round pick that didn’t work out. It’s not convincing to point out this was a possibility absent a Reddish trade.
It’s also a possibility we make a bunch of bad picks using the pick we didn’t trade for Mitchell, should we thus have traded them?
I’m still in favor of *trying* to find/make Cam a diamond in the rough, but this is the most persuasive argument I’ve read for why the trade was a mistake.
The Knicks have not and will not go through any multiyear tear down and rebuild. If that was Leon’s pitch, he never would have gotten the job. It’s a nonstarter. That comes from management. We all know it. They are the most valuable franchise in the league. Think of the possible business risk. No tanking allowed.
“Knicks fans are the only fans on earth that after a relentless series of incompetent coaches will complain about hiring a 2 time COTY (should be 3) because he’s not the coach they wanted to rebuild with.”
Are you saying only Knicks fans would object to Tom Thibodeau coaching their team? That’s hilarious. The hire was widely criticized by fans and media alike. He was in contention for exactly zero other jobs. The cycle described here is playing out with downright eerie prescience.
“But once you have that kind of space and strike out on your targets, you have to put something into it.”
Motion for a bot that automatically responds “no you don’t” every time Strat says this blatantly untrue thing?
People want GM’s to make high risks moved bc if they pan out they can have huge benefits to the team. That’s what the reddish grace was. A “high” risk move but it only cost us a late first round pick. If it doesn’t work out, it’s a failure but it’s a high risk move that doesn’t cost us THAT much. But I think everyone can agree that Cam’s theoretical ceiling is much higher than the probably outcome of a late first round pick and Kevin Knox.
But we make that move and people want to say Leon is an idiot. But two months from now cam could be balling out and everyone will say Leon is a genius and that Thibs did the right thing not giving him PT to make him motivated to earn it.
I recall reading that Ringer article TNFH posted in the summer of 2020. Best part was the mention of Julio Cortázar’s short story, The Southern Thruway. Good read.
It would be cool if we just used our draft picks, though.
I have a strong feeling the names Ochai Agbaji, Jalen Williams, and Ousmane Dieng are going to invoke pain for us in the future.
“I’m still in favor of *trying* to find/make Cam a diamond in the rough, but this is the most persuasive argument I’ve read for why the trade was a mistake.”
Now that he’s here, I’m also in favor of this. Achieving it requires actually playing him, though.
Playing him is very likely to mean losing games we might’ve won, based on his track record. So I understand why Thibs, single-mindedly focused on winning, doesn’t want to do it.
But that’s just another example of the braintrust not being on the same page.
It’s very hard to pull off a “diamond in the rough” find when you’re so focused on winning. It requires actually seeing what you have in the player, which comes with a high risk of them not being good. If you view losing games you perhaps could’ve won as something needs to be avoided at all costs, the whole diamond in the rough thing is probably not of interest.
So to pull it off, everyone in the organization needs to be at peace with the fact that you might lose some winnable games. There are clearly some people in our braintrust that are okay with that, but there are others who aren’t.
This leads to a series of confusing, contradictory decisions wherein we trade a lot of draft picks because they allegedly can’t help us win immediately (this determination is often false, but I digress), but also give tons of playing time to RJ who also usually doesn’t help us win.
Isn’t that you?
***Isn’t that you?***
Yeah, but until he makes partner he’ll need the bot going forward.
It really doesn’t, though. We know what he can be. He has to prove that he values his career and will do the work.
Besides you know the incinerated pick was garbage anyway. Going from 19 to Cam sucked but going from the charred pick to Cam was fine.
Oh hey Donnie. Thanks for the tip last night. My molars feel great now.
@Hubie I would have been happy if they just made their picks and went from there. As it is, they are a young .500ish team with a very young roster and potentially 3 first rounders next year. They are not in a perfect spot, but there is no reason for doom and gloom.
I don’t think I’m doom and gloom. I’m one of the most reasonably optimistic posters on the board. (No one can touch Swifty but his brand of optimism is a way of life.)
But when I see a mistake I complain about it. And we’ve been shit for 20 years so there’s been a lot to complain about.
I also differ on the claim that Leon Rose, who Dolan asked to take the job, wouldn’t have gotten the job that Dolan asked for him to take that he had no interest in taking at first had he said that he, the guy Dolan was asking to run his team, wanted to rebuild.
TNFH — to be clear, getting Cam may be a mistake, but it’s one I do support, specifically in trying him and in kind. I absolutely want Leon to seek reclamation projects in case one hits. As for Thibs, his most maddening roadblock (IMO) is placed in front of Obi not Cam who would have had a chance to prove himself had he not been injured.
We’ll see what the games bring this season — I can’t wait to argue lineups — but I’m persuaded by their actions that Leon and Thibs are not mainly intent on finding (old) castoff vets to win now (or play 500 ball). As pointed out well by others, we have one of the youngest rosters in the league.
PS — as for whether Thibs was the right coach, I also think — for reasons of continuity — Leon wanted someone he could build with and not replace in a year or two. Thus the ideal candidate would be someone to train the kids up but also someone with whom we could imagine winning it all. I don’t love Thibs by any means, but “eye-test-wise” he fits that bill.
Hey, don’t forget we got a 2nd rd pick back and gave Atlanta Knox. So we turned half a season of Knox into 1.5 seasons of Cam! And only at the price of a trade down from 19th to the 2nd rd!
The above is sarcasm.
@Hubie I would not put you in camp doom and gloom, but there are other posters who are much more pessimistic.
@Brian I think we have plenty of evidence of what type of leadership Dolan wants. If he wanted a Hinkie, he could hire Hinkie. If that’s what you want, Leon Rose is not the man you target.
Using a 1st round pick to take a chance on Cam Reddish was a totally reasonable risk as long as you ignore the 3 previous years of terrible play. Personally, if I was going to take a risk on a player I would’ve preferred a player we could’ve drafted with the 19th pick in the 2019 draft.
Guys it is very conceivable that Charlotte will not make the playoffs for a while and that pick converts to a 2nd. Cam was a decent return for the ashes of 19.
You can’t really be a pessimist when things always go bad
And I think it’s become clear as day that Thibs is not the reason we don’t use our draft picks. It has nothing to with his supposed unwillingness to play kids and everything to do with Leon’s far-fetched belief that heavily protected future picks are some sort of treasure that can be used to acquire stars.
Right now our kids should be RJ, Obi, IQ, Jalen Johnson, Keon Johnson, Quentin Grimes, and Ousmane Dieng or Ochai Agbaji. And things would be a lot cooler if they were.
I made a comment saying that the Knicks re-signed Arcidiacono, but looks like the bot that validates the comments doesn’t accept Arcidiacono back and sent my comment to moderation.
Maybe they’ll be trying an all-PG lineup, no? 😀
LaMelo is capable of carrying the Hornets to at least 1 playoff appearance. They were in the play-in game this year and last.
Miles Bridges was a big part of that, though.
I feel pretty confident they won’t make the playoffs this year. That just leaves two more chances and they’re not exactly a well run team.
Knicks press release officially announced DaQuan Jeffries signing
True, but those last 2 years are the 2 easiest. They just need to get past the play-in.
I’m mostly betting on LaMelo taking a leap forward. Maybe one of their other young players hits, Bouknight or Kai Jones or whoever.
Saturday seems like a good day to watch Wembanyama clips.
You guys need to stop complaining we didn’t play Cam because he got hurt and was unable to play after we started giving him minutes (that he probably didn’t deserve, because he sucks)
Jimmy, Shall we get a Win Now Coach, a Developmental one or a Tank Forever one?
Ohhh…idk Leon…
That’s very hard to decide…There are so many types of coaches nowadays that it’s like choosing shampoo or toothpaste!
TNFH-Hi, congrats on the bar exam belatedly, welcome to the profession and the best of luck in the future! A career in the law provides so many wonderful paths-you will do well financially but also can make the world a better place. What a gig! There is no one way to do it and resist becoming jaded-which, IMV is the easy way out. While I don’t post too much, I follow this blog daily and enjoy your entries.
Leon, diehards are complaining that you can’t find great players in draft picks at the 10s Wtf man?
Well, Jimmy i can find good ones but not at the 10s! Idk…i guess it’s psychological…i prefer burning the 10s!!!
Cam You F#_&(!;_#@ why did you hurt yourself? Get in You lazy goat! We got a sophisticated part of our fans to persuade you still have value!
DRed:Cam::JK47:Deuce
I see the Knicks re-signed Clyde fave Archie Diacono
Re: Cam Reddish, to be fair, he played in 12 straight games and then got hurt, and only once did he play less that 13 minutes during that stretch. His overall stats were fine during that stretch. There’s no reason to believe that he wouldn’t have continued to play if he didn’t dislocate his shoulder.
Even so, Thibs strongly believes that development can take place in practice as well as in games…he said something to the effect that if you practice well you will play in games. I don’t know whether Cam was practicing well before he got hurt or if he was only playing because of injuries to other players. So the trading for him and not playing him thing is a bit overblown.
Knicks in the finals!!!*
*One Knick in the EuroBasket finals