2020-21 HOME OPENER Thread: Knicks vs. 76ers

As noted on Twitter earlier today, the last time that the Knicks beat the Sixers, it was the infamous Ndour game that dropped the Knicks in the lottery to the point where they got Frank instead of some of the other guys.

Let’s see if the Knicks can’t get the bad taste of that win out of their mouths with a new win!

Burks oddly still not starting.

Let’s go, Knicks!

360 replies on “2020-21 HOME OPENER Thread: Knicks vs. 76ers”

I agree it’s a bummer Toppin and Quickley aren’t starting. It’s a weekend morning here so it’s a game I can actually watch.

Clyde, your thoughts on the uniform? “Eh, I’ve thrown away better.”. I love Clyde.

Nasty dunk by Randle. I liked that inside out game with Randle and RJ. Good start for him so far.

Clyde is a national treasure. That comment about the jerseys.

Also, why are two Knicks 23? Bullock is going to foul out really quickly.

Odd for Thibs to be so pissed about Simmons abusing Bullock. That was not a good matchup.

Owen:
Clyde is a national treasure. That comment about the jerseys.

Also, why are two Knicks 23? Bullock is going to foul out really quickly.

That’s weird, you’re right. I think it’s a typo. Looks like the front of Bullock’s jersey is 25 and the back is 23.

Player intros so fake. No way we would hear cheers for Elfrid at the Garden if the fans were there.
Randle is continuing to play much better than last year.

Stop counting the vote! Knicks win!

Weird to see Payton out there not really running the offense. Just kind of standing around on offense.

I predict the Sixers start double teaming Randle. Let’s see how he handles that

RJ has been bad so far, but is still trying to make plays.

Mitcha hasn’t commited a foul yet because Embiid is playing perimeter-oriented so far.

cybersoze:
Bullock is with number 23, is that legal (23 is Mitch, also on the court) ?

HAHAHAHA, jersey malfunction 😀

And Burks immediately makes the case for being a starter.

Leonam: HAHAHAHA, jersey malfunction 😀

What was even more hilarious was that the front number was correct (25), only the number in his back was wrong (23) !? 😀

cybersoze:
Burks is a good player

It makes no sense we were able to sign him for as little as we did. Hopefully we can trade him before the deadline for a pick.

Payton brings nothing to the table, come on. I’ve seen one good pass by him and that’s it.

@ Knick fan not in NJ

I really want to watch this one… A little curious about how you got your stream working, if you would kindly share some tips. I have a vpn that works for web browsing but too slow for streaming .

pepper:
is that the ghost of dwight Howard?

That’s NBA-champion-Dwight-Howard-who-shot-100%-for-3-in-the-2020-NBA-Finals for you, sir 😀

Korkmaz looks exactly like Daniel Radcliffe. I can’t be the only who sees this, right?

dtrickey:
More of that move from Knox please

That was a good first minute plus of play for Knox. Had his arms up on D while sliding across the paint to deny a backdoor attempt.

Who here said that Knox’s first few minutes tends to determine hiw he performs for the game?

I could actually start liking Randle if he keeps playing this way. As soon as he was double teamed, he passed the ball.

This is the second time the Knicks make a good job moving the ball and find the open man near the basket.

But the open man near the basket is Nerlens Noel. There’s a reason he’s free.

Our kids need to learn, if they get in the paint, go to the hole and try for the foul… don’t put up a floater.

Z-man:
Already I’m glad we have Quickley instead of Maxey…

He’s at least very confident, unlike some young guards we know.

Our kids need to learn, if they get in the paint, go to the hole and try for the foul… don’t put up a floater.

players don’t usually do that by choice…. the alternative is to get stuffed at the rim…

Can someone explain to me again why Burks makes only $6 mill?

It’s ridiculous. Or heck, even if he were to make $6 million, then why couldn’t he get that money from a good team?

Burks seems to be doing it perfectly.

djphan: players don’t usually do that by choice…. the alternative is to get stuffed at the rim…

Brian Cronin: It’s ridiculous. Or heck, even if he were to make $6 million, then why couldn’t he get that money from a good team?

Leon using his contacts?

Here’s hoping both Burks and Randle can be traded for 1st round picks at the deadline.

Man, you really wonder if Knox is thinking things out there.

WTF was that pass going?

Man, you really wonder if Knox is thinking things out there.

He really is best when he just does stuff like sit in the corner and wait for the pass. His shot looks sweet from the corner.

And hey, to Knox’s credit, he got to the rebound first before the absurd turnover.

I can’t knock RJ’s disappearance act since he’d had Simmons on him all game long.

Maybe RJB letting Simmons getting into his head a bit? Seems like he’s forcing stuff.

Why isn’t Payton in? He didn’t play that many minutes and he got rest now.

couple questionable but defensible shots but otherwise clean looks that just aren’t falling for rj… shouldn’t get carried away just like the first game….

Clyde says Mitch has to front Embid but if he fronts Embid the refs call a foul.

He can’t win.

That was a foul on Mitch?

Mitch gets a terrible whistle. He commits terrible fouls too but he rarely gets the benefit of the doubt.

Noel!

1st half thoughts:

Randle is great.

RJ has been bad, man (but has not lost his confidence).

Ben Simmons, has been a BAD man.

Burks is tremendously useful.

Mitchell is a victim of ref persecution.

The Knicks have called a total of zero plays for RJ Barrett. When you make him, a 20 year old, hunt for his own shot, that’s the kind of stat line he’ll turn in. I can’t be disappointed in the gameplan because we have no business hanging in there with Philly, but is anybody really happy that Alec Burks and Julius Randle are the reason we have a shot at winning?

RJ single handedly keeping the 76’ers ahead. His shooting form today is awful.

No IQ, no Obi, not many reasons to watch the game.
RJ with a really bad shooting night for now, FTs included.
Burks’s solid and could land us something at the trade deadline.
Randle under control is a talented player.
Payton’s decaying under our collective eyes.
It looks like Mitch and Noel have a combined range of about 5 feet from the basket.
Knox not useless, that’s something.
DSJ over Frank? I’m a bit surprised.

DRed:
that last foul on mitch looked like it was pretty clearly on Randle

Despite you being the most irreverent Mitch stan out there, agreed.

The Glass Half Rebuilt:
The Knicks have called a total of zero plays for RJ Barrett. When you make him, a 20 year old, hunt for his own shot, that’s the kind of stat line he’ll turn in. I can’t be disappointed in the gameplan because we have no business hanging in there with Philly, but is anybody really happy that Alec Burks and Julius Randle are the reason we have a shot at winning?

whut? He sucked and has only himself to blame. And my guess is that he’d be the first to say it.

that last foul on mitch looked like it was pretty clearly on Randle

I think it was a late whistle and they were calling it before Randle came into the sequence. It was an absurd call, but I think that was the call.

Z-man: whut? He sucked and has only himself to blame. And my guess is that he’d be the first to say it.

Watch the game.

RJ is very slow at releasing the ball, the 2nd Simmons block was really bad, it was very clear that he wouldn’t do it in time but he tried it anyway

The halftimes are much shorter now, right? Didn’t notice the game had already resumed.

RJ lacks credibility with the refs.
Watched the Hawks’ game, you can’t stare at Young without him getting two or three fts but you could kill RJ without a whistle.

I can’t stand Payton’s line drive threes anymore…

randle is probably our best offensive player but the offense can’t really function going through him all the time… he’s playing well but this many unassisted touches isn’t going to be good for him or the offense….

Is it me or Payton looks like Frank? First thing he does when crossing the half court is looking for a guy to pass the ball, instead of orchestrating the offense.

Mitch going from Myles Turner and Sabonis to Embiid, rough week

This is the Pacers game all over again

Elfrid Payton is utterly useless. One of the worst players I know. Had some moments in Orlando, but oh my he’s BAD. I don’t care how much he makes, it’s expensive.

No team can play decent basketball with the starting backcourt shooting 1-18,
no matter how good the front court.

Let’s see, the Sixers have a tremendous PG, we have a horrendous PG – I wonder who’s gonna win the game?

Yeah, Elfrid has been terrible. It may be why Burks was playing point for a bit. Smith didn’t look good either. It’s actually time for Frank to get in the game, but I doubt it will happen.

LOL Payton should not be starting. I said it last game and will say it again. Just having Quickley in there to play over him will make a huge difference.

This team will live and die by its effort, and its effort seems contingent upon shots falling on offense. With only Burks and Randle as guys who can create their own shot, there has to be a better plan on offense for the other 8 guys in the rotation.

I think our PGs are on a competition for who’s the worst… let’s see what DSJ can do! 😛

Whatever happened to DSJr last season appears to be happening to Elfrid Payton

We are clearly outmatched, but the Sixers defense also looks downright scary, they’re just swarming everyone and closing every door.

This game epitomizes the last 20 years of being a Knicks Fan. Old timer games have more pace than this dreck.

At 1-18 they might as well have taken just-outside-the-logo shots every time down the court. No way they miss 17 of them.

Add Mike Bibby to the list of over the hill players I’d like to have rather than Payton or DSJ…

Shouldn’t Thibs sit RJ? When it’s not falling, might be better to sit the kid to protect him. Leaving him there he’s only embarassing himself more.

I would prefer Milos Teodosic to Payton, his passing is brilliant. Farfa can say if he’s still good, as i think he plays for Bologna now.

A tweet from Mike Vorkunov of The Athletic:

“ RJ Barrett is 1-of-13 from the field after 3 quarters. Knicks have had 19 different times where a player took at least 13 shots and made 0 or 1 of them. Sid Tanenbaum and Carl Braun both went 1-for-16. Tim Hardaway Jr. was last one to do it in 2018. Ewing went 1-for-14 in 1996.”

cybersoze:
I would prefer Milos Teodosic to Payton, his passing is brilliant. Farfa can say if he’s still good, as i think he plays for Bologna now.

Despite smoking 40 cigarettes daily Milos is still a genius 🙂

Max:
A tweet from Mike Vorkunov of The Athletic:
“ RJ Barrett is 1-of-13 from the field after 3 quarters… Ewing went 1-for-14 in 1996.”

RJ Barrett following Patrick Ewing’s footsteps!!! 😀

djphan:
what was i saying that bothered you so much? why are trying to start shit over nothing?

Typically you misinterpreted, it’s about what you did NOT say…

djphan:
what was i saying that bothered you so much? why are trying to start shit over nothing?

Do yourself and your sanity a favor and let the old man yell at the sky by himself.

Do yourself and your sanity a favor and let the old man yell at the sky by himself.

no i’m just wondering if he’s ok….

DRed:
Knox has been . . .not terrible tonight, that’s something I guess

Calipari did say he’d need three years, I guess.

The team has actually played fine tonight except for nobody in the backcourt being able to make a shot.

If only RJ could shoot like their 285 pound center….

They are competing at least. Burks had a nice dish back there to Randle

The Knicks have Michelob as a sponsor. I hope that gives Thibs ideas for some offensive plays.

knox has played not terribly.. but he really has no business being on teh floor right now….

I’m skeptical about allowing myself back to back sleepless night with the team been so shitty and Giannis lurking in the shadows…
Better keep my energy for the Cleveland trip (and better keep resting IQ for that).

I don’t think there’s really any need to blame the front office for this mess, i mean who in the world would have ever guessed that we should have tried to add a decent point guard to the roster this season…

is elf hurt, or has thibs completely given up on him already…

Well we forced Doc Rivers to put Embiid/Simmons back on the court, so we’re not that bad. The Warriors would be losing by 25! 😛

not sure when the free league pass preview ends (guessing on monday)…gonna be hard to wanna tune in to watch the knicks continue to play without a point guard…

Immanuel Quickley with a strong case for the starting lineup in this game despite not playing in it

Frank finally made it into garbage time, but not as point guard. I don’t think he knows how to play the two. He looked lost.

thibs is going with point randle… same as fiz ironically.. he went to it in the first half against indy and tonight also….

randle has matured a bit it seems… but he’s not lebron and he is at his best when he’s getting the ball when he’s moving …. maybe thibs is trying to redeem himself for freezing kat out of the offense but this is not the solution…. and hopefully the third quarters in each of these games puts a stop to it…..

thibs usually likes the side pnr and we ran i think only a few times the whole game…. the second play of the game with rj and randle was really well run and they just didn’t do that ever again…. and then they have burks running pnr’s from the top of the key and making him create… i’m not really sure thibs is too familiar with what we got because he’s certainly not putting these guys in the best position right now…. some questionable things at the very least….

bad game from rj obviously but 6-8 from the line is encouraging…. most of the shots weren’t terrible so he wasn’t exactly forcing it too much… but he did look pressed at times out there… the turnovers being the worst part…..

the stuff coming out of payton is really bad…. but i do think it has a lot to do with the offense going through randle… if you’re going to park payton out on the corner having someone else create then that’s not really putting him in a position to succeed….

mitch needed to play more also.. he was starting to impact the game and then he just never returned…. strange stuff….

Julius Randle was awesome tonight on offense and Tobias Harris didn’t light him up defensively so that was nice to see. Mitch played the whole game without getting into foul trouble, which was also nice to see. Burks is the team MVP through two games and is likely on track to net us a 3rd 1RP. RJ Barrett could not buy a basket tonight if he had Steve Cohen’s wallet, but the 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 6 made free throws, and engaged defense made him a guy you don’t yank off the floor. Elf and Reggie do not look like NBA players and if they’re going to be that trash you might as well give their minutes to Smith Jr and Ntilikina respectively.

The “semiBlowout Loss” was expected tbh but the PG fiasco not so much.
Thibs has job to do in the playmaking department

Spurs doing it again. Vassell very solid 12 minutes. Patty Mills unstoppable.

And yeah, Anthony Edwards off to a strong start. There was a great clip of him on Twitter loudly proclaiming he can play any sport. Pretty funny. Seems to be right about basketball.

James Harden with 2 points and 7 assists in his first 8 minutes

@SBondyNYDN
Elfrid Payton had a rough night but he’s out here on the Garden floor shooting by himself, trying to get better.

better days ahead folks

We we’re always going to lose these games, but yuck.

Can’t wait to get something for Burks and Randle at the trade deadline.

The Warriors are paying 130 million for Steph, Draymond, Klay and Wiggins, all of whom might be worse than our most expensive player (Randle) this season. This Knicks team stinks but it’s at least nice to not be saddled with a bunch of awful contracts. If we ever get lucky in the draft we’re in great shape.

The Warriors are paying 130 million for Steph, Draymond, Klay and Wiggins, all of whom might be worse than our most expensive player (Randle) this season

dred cannot be our gm anymore……

Steph is 32 and hasn’t made more than 25% of his 3s in 2 seasons-that’s factorial. Maybe he’s just washed

If Randle can play like this semi regularly, I actually don’t want to trade him. There, I’ve said it. Now you can all disagree.

geo:
at least we’re still in the playoff hunt…

Yes, in fact we are tied with Toronto, who has managed to lose to the Pelicans and the Spurs.

Didn’t watch (duh), but it looks like RJ took exactly 48 hours to revert to the mean…

Before anyone panics, let’s remember that 0-3 was an absolute given. If we win any of these first 3 games, we’re a 30-win team. In other words, you can’t be a 24-team or less and win any of these games.

I offer Frank for Steph and also I will tack on one conditional top-28 second-round draft pick, which, if not conveyed by 2022, will convert to Wally’s broadcasting contract with whatever the opposite of a trade kicker is

Now that the game appears to have slowed a bit for Knox you can see a genuinely good athlete- not great but above average- waiting to come out. Whether that will be enough to make him a decent rotation player let alone a starter remains to be seen but it at least makes having him out on the floor bearable. He’s still not very good but as long as he doesn’t revert to his former comatose state he should be getting 25-30 minutes a night with Obi out.

DRed:
do not understand Detroit letting wood go to sign shittier bigmen

You don’t have to, because that was just freakishly dumb.

They let a cheap big man go, only to sign the Nuggets backup frontcourt + Jahlil Okafor.

All that while having used their 16th pick to select another center (Isaiah Stewart, possibly a reach).

Plus, they still pay big bucks to Blake Griffin.

I mean, what the hell?

“I would prefer Milos Teodosic to Payton, his passing is brilliant. Farfa can say if he’s still good, as i think he plays for Bologna now”

Teodosic is a wonderful player for the Italian League, but his shooting disappeared and he can’t guard anyone. So yeah, he’d be probably our best PG.

Z-Man: Ps ingmarrr I get that you might have been tongue-in-cheek but I’m taking you at face value.

No tongue-in-cheek regarding Wiseman’s **potential** to reach AD’s stratosphere. Obviously the sample size is tiny, and the 3 point shooting is unsustainable but I’m very impressed with his mobility on offense, and 1.5 blocks in 24.5 mpg on defense. The 7 total rebounds in these 24.5 minutes is also quite nice.

Add to this that he played only 3 games in college, and did not participate in training camp or the preseason.

For all intents and purposes, this is just Fizdale Redux, Mercs Redux. The offense is, if anything, even more Payton/Randle-centric now. All the marginal improvements we think we espy here and there aren’t really worth that much even if they actually exist.

The Elfrid Payton obsession really saps any honest observer’s confidence in Thibs. Just not remotely sold.

And the “Alec Burks as point guard” thing is utterly ridiculous and clownish ….

E, I agree about Alec Burks. But I don’t agree the offense is the same as under Fizdale. Randle is looking better and different so far this year. I attribute that to Thibs. I hope it keeps up.

The emptiest of calories. No team that gives this prominent a role to him is ever going to be any good, even on his “better” nights. He had a “good” night last night and they still got blown out of the building. For them to ever be actually good, his role will have to be significantly reduced and then he probably becomes pointless. This is and will always be the fundamental problem with players like him.

Alan:
if any of you are planning to watch “Soul” this weekend, beware that there is a joke in there that will cut you to your very core.

It’s really natural how they integrated a Knicks joke into predominantly a New Yorker story. I have missed a delicate Pixar production for some time.

What’s to debate about Randle?

He’s a good player. He’d be a pretty solid 3rd option on a very good team, but he’s being forced to be the 1st option on a bad team where he sometimes tries to do too much. If you are a very good team with a more traditional C, then you are probably better off playing him off the bench for spacing reasons, but either way he’s a good player. On the Knicks, he has to play.

He and RJ are probably going to go back and forth depending on matchups.

RJ had a rough night, but he had Ben Simmons on him a lot of the time. He’s still going to have rough shooting nights no matter what, but if you have Ben Simmons on you and Joel Embiid is waiting in the paint, you are probably going to have a rough night with RJ’s current skillset. He was 1-8 with Simmons on him. No big deal. He’s an improved player, but he obviously still has a way to go. He’s only 20.

E, two-way G-Leaguer:
And the “Alec Burks as point guard” thing is utterly ridiculous and clownish ….

Without the flashes of hope from Quickley as PG, not only do we not have a good starting PG, we don’t have a good backup either.

I don’t know what the story is with Payton. We knew his shot was probably still going to be a problem, but the rest of his game is usually good. He looks out of it.

Knox has that interesting right handed drive where he doesn’t go right at the basket. Then he throws it up high off the glass.

He’s never played for a good team, so how can he be projected as anything like a third option on a good team? It’s unclear he can play any role on a good team. He’s the prototypical guy who needs the ball and puts up hollow numbers who bad teams sign because of the hollow numbers. If, as you argued, he “has to play” on a team as bad as the Knicks then what you do then is not sign him in the first place. He’s pointless, and arguing about his transitory ups and downs is pointless.

Ntilikina can’t possibly be worse on offense than Payton right now..

Thibodeau is clueless. Game’s passed him by. He wasn’t going to play Quickley over Payton either; he barely gave him any run the first two exhibition games. It’s beyond belief that he’s running the Payton/Randle-centric offense replete with handoffs and guys handing off and then going and standing in the corner. Incredible.

Thibs looks good compared to people like Fizdale and Miller, but that’s just the typical Knicks low bar at work again, in much the same way that Elfrid Payton looks squintably ok if the bar is people like Dennis Smith, Jr. Rose’s bar is Steve Mills, so same thing. It’s what we do around here and nothing’s ever going to change until the standards become way higher.

E, two-way G-Leaguer:
He’s never played for a good team, so how can he be projected as anything like a third option on a good team?It’s unclear he can play any role on a good team. He’s the prototypical guy who needs the ball and puts up hollow numbers who bad teams sign because of the hollow numbers.If, as you argued, he “has to play” on a team as bad as the Knicks then what you do then is not sign him in the first place.He’s pointless, and arguing about his transitory ups and downs is pointless.

Signing him when your C is going to be Mitchell Robinson was foolish.

Signing him for as much as we did was foolish (thankfully not long term).

If KP was playing C and we signed him for a more reasonable price, I’d be very happy to have him on my team even though he’s not my favored profile of plus defender with a very high basketball IQ.

But I’ve been saying that Mills/Perry know nothing about basketball for several years now. That’s spilled milk.

Right now he’s playing quite well. He even hit a few 3s. There’s nothing to complain about. Personally, I don’t think he can stretch his game out like that on a sustained basis. So he’s probably never going to be a great fit with Mitch (who is overrated here, but that’s another story), but at least he’s playing well enough to give us a chance to trade him for something we need that fits better. Personally, I’d like to see if Topin can play basketball first. Otherwise, we’ll be solving one problem and creating another. Randle is not a problem on this team. He’s simply not an all star or a perfect fit. The problem is we have no PG and not enough shooting. Same problems as last year.

Why everyone hates Randle because he’s not an all star being forced to try to be one on a team with no PG or space is a mystery to me.

Deeefense: Signing him when your C is going to be Mitchell Robinson was foolish.

Signing him for as much as we did was foolish (thankfully not long term).

If KP was playing C and we signed him for a more reasonable price, I’d be very happy to have him on my team even though he’s not my favored profile of plus defender with a very high basketball IQ.

But I’ve been saying that Mills/Perry know nothing about basketball for several years now.That’s spilled milk.

Right now he’s playing quite well. He even hit a few 3s.There’s nothing to complain about.Personally, I don’t think he can stretch his game out like that on a sustained basis. So he’s probably never going to be a great fit with Mitch (who is overrated here, but that’s another story), but at least he’s playing well enough to give us a chance to trade him for something we need that fits better.Personally, I’d like to see if Topin can play basketball first.Otherwise, we’ll be solving one problem and creating another.Randle is not a problem on this team.He’s simply not an all star or a perfect fit.The problem is we have no PG and not enough shooting.Same problems as last year.

Why everyone hates Randle because he’s not an all star being forced to try to be one on a team with no PG or space is a mystery to me.

Everyone hates him because he’s empty calories and he plays ugly and freezes out other guys and because the Knicks will never be any good with him around.

The Lakers didn’t want him around when they got LeBron, either. If you’re good, he serves no purpose.

Frank seems to be a perfectly fine point guard for France. I’m not going to accede to the assumption that somehow grew hold that he can’t play point guard. He’s not prototypical, to be sure. I’m not going to rehash a bunch of old stuff, but he should be playing for this team. He’s stupidly been on some kind of probation his whole time here, while shittier players got pass after pass after pass. But that’s what shitty organizations do. Shitty organizations play Emmanuel Mudiay, Dennis Smith, Jr., and Elfrid Payton — the clearly-surplus-to-requirements backwash of the real teams in the league. The real teams in the league can’t wait to jettison those guys and the Knicks sign them. Or in one case trade a top 20-30 asset in the league for a package with them as a primary component. Yuck.

Elfrid Payton has played 40 minutes over two games as the starting PG. Thibs is not slavishly devoted to Elfrid Payton–you can literally see Thibs (and Payton, too) losing faith in Payton’s ability to play basketball with every bricked three pointer. He was justifiably pulled from last game. He should still have the starting job, given his track record as a league average point guard who actually played the position for more than two preseason games. Quickley got 12 minutes and was on track for 20 as the first guy off the bench based on two good rookie preseason games. And if we didn’t have Randle in this game we would’ve lost by 50. You need to run a DHO offense when you have zero PG play and your PF can credibly pass.

This repeated canard that Knicks-era Thibs is vet obsessed conveniently ignores the fact that Frank, DSJ, and to a lesser extent Knox (for now) all suck at basketball and are G-League level in their fourth year, which is to say that they are not NBA players.

Thibs has been fine–perhaps even better than fine, in my estimation. This team is poorly constructed yet again because we have no point guard unless preseason IQ is for real. No coach can change that, and no coach should be expected to trot out the worst players on the team simply because they’re younger than the competent players. We’ll still be the worst team in the league and first in line for Mobley/Suggs/Cade whether we play Frank 5 minutes a game or 40.

Thibs is stuck in 2012 and no he didn’t want to play Quickley over Payton and it’s impossible to see how he could think Payton should be getting a single minute on the floor as he’s been dreadful every single minute going back to the first dribble of preseason.(*) If he’s basing it on practice, then that just goes to show how out of touch he is. “Rookies and young guys have to earn their minutes in practice” is Gene Hackman/Hoosiers shit. He’s 63 years old and the game has passed him by.

(*) The really weird thing is that Payton really isn’t that old and it’s not as though he has some kind of great history and is an aging former all-star or anything. He’s sucked his entire career and his previous two teams couldn’t wait to get rid of him.

Thibs didn’t reach any of the young players in Minnesota, either, and they all couldn’t stand him, and he didn’t coach or interact well with Ricky Rubio either. He brought in Jimmy Butler, his old security blanket, to try to do his dirty work for him and Jimmy Butler wound up not wanting to stay around, either. He also brought in old hand Derrick Rose, and when you start bringing in your old band, it screams out the fact that you aren’t able to put together a new band. In our hopes, all that was rationalized away. The game has passed him by.

I am going to do the smart thing and wait until we lose by 30 to the Bucks today in the “Thanasis Revenge Game” before making my official evaluation of Thibs.

I have to say, as much as I love Clyde, there is a part of me that wishes Wally had been in the chair to answer Breen’s question about the jerseys last night.

“These jerseys are nothing short of amazing. They literally are pushing the clothing industry to a new level, although that’s what you’d expect for jerseys on players playing in the greatest arena on earth.”

Jeff Van Gundy is one of his biggest backers and still has a relatively prominent voice in basketball circles, but he somehow has come to fancy himself the conscience of basketball, and sees Thibs in conscience of basketball terms. Things don’t really work that way, though, and it’s not just modern players; the association has been a players league forever. If you can’t get player buy-in, you’re toast. Thibs has fanatical loyalists and guys who hate him, which is pretty much exactly what you don’t want particularly when you have more haters than fanatical loyalists and the fanatical loyalists are one-offs like Joakim Noah. You need to be a bit of a huckster to succeed.

And, while we hear the stories of Tom Coughlin and the like, it’s far more the case that the wound-tight guys like Thibs get worse with age, not better. Anything’s possible, but it’s hard to see this one ending well.

Some thoughts about this first two games:
– RJ has been looking good and that’s nice, yesterday he was awful but then Thibs didn’t take him out and he got (a little) better by the end of the game, that’s not easy to do. I have high hopes for him.
– Mitch is getting better, and it’s a good idea by Thibs to put Randle banging with the tougher guys, he’s stronger than Mitch and seems like he can hold his own.
– No Quickley and no Obi is bad, but hopefully this means Obi’s bad games was because of the calf strain and not because we missed the pick.
– Knox is getting better, still a bad player but not anymore at worst of the league level.
– DSJ is still the same, so demanding Thibs to find time for him seems pointless, maybe he has more trade value if he doesn’t remind other teams how bad he actually is.
– Same for Frank, can we end this chapter already? That offensive rebound he couldn’t catch was awfully bad. By all means send him to Dallas or San Antonio just to check if Strat was right, i’m kind of curious to check it out also, as i don’t see an NBA player there.

I don’t think Thibs is managing well the veterans, except Randle, but that’s not important for our future as long as we can extract one or two 1st rounders at the deadline.

Ingmarrrr: No tongue-in-cheek regarding Wiseman’s **potential** to reach AD’s stratosphere. Obviously the sample size is tiny, and the 3 point shooting is unsustainable but I’m very impressed with his mobility on offense, and 1.5 blocks in 24.5 mpg on defense. The 7 total rebounds in these 24.5 minutes is also quite nice.

Add to this that he played only 3 games in college, and did not participate in training camp or the preseason.

KAT vs. Embiid vs. Wiseman in first 3 college games (Each vs. 2 weak and 1 strong team)

KAT
vs. Grand Canyon: 22 min 8pts 8 rebs 3 blocks .429 FG%
vs. Buffalo 10 min 3, 5, 0, .167
vs. Kansas 18 min 9, 8, 4. .500

Embiid
vs. Lousiana-Monroe 11 min 9, 4. 0, .500
vs. Duke 20 min 2, 7, 1, .250
vs. Iona 25 min 16, 13. 2, 1.000

Wiseman
vs. SC State 22 min 28, 11, 3, .786
vs. UIC 25 min 17, 9, 5, 1.000
vs. Oregon 22 min 14, 12, 1, .625

E, two-way G-Leaguer: Everyone hates him because he’s empty calories and he plays ugly and freezes out other guys and because the Knicks will never be any good with him around.

The Lakers didn’t want him around when they got LeBron, either.If you’re good, he serves no purpose.

I usually think of empty calories as someone like Melo who shoots inefficiently on high volume. This year, so far, Randle has been efficient. Last year was a down year, but the year before that he was pretty efficient too. If that’s what you mean by empty calories, it’s not a fair criticism of Randle this year. As for freezing out other guys, he had ten assists in two games so far this year. How is that freezing out other guys? Maybe you don’t like his style of play. That’s fine, but when you say “the Knicks will never win with him”, I think it’s more fair to say, they’ll never win with just him as most or all of their scoring threats. (Or maybe just “The Knick’s will never win, because Knicks)

He freezes out other guys because he’s too ball dominant and has to have the ball in his hands to even have the empty calorie “success” he has. You can’t build anything around him. He’s not good enough to have the ball in his hands and if you take the ball out of his hands, he can’t really do anything.

And what makes it worse is that it’s obvious that he WANTS to chuck, and chucking is more important to him than winning. He’s simply not a winning player, in any dimension.

He’s pointless, and it’s pointless to argue about his up-and-down swings. Last night was one of his up-swings, but why should anyone even care about that? They got blown out and will continue to get blown out with him as a focal point. If the question is, “Well, if he’s not on the team, won’t they go 10-62??” and the answer is, “Not necessarily, and so what if they do.”

Knick fan not in NJ: This year, so far, Randle has been efficient.

Agreed, this year Randle is not the problem. Start Quickley when he’s back, and for the love of God start Burks, how can Thibs save a very good player to balance the 2nd unit when our 1st unit is not all that good to warrant that.

It seems your logic is basically “he’s the leading scorer and the Knicks are losing, therefore he must be bad”

On a positive note, it’s encouraging to see that on last night’s “lol moments”, ours was only a jersey malfunction and not a dunk on our own basket. So there’s that. 😉

Z-man: KAT vs. Embiid vs. Wiseman in first 3 college games (Each vs. 2 weak and 1 strong team)

Looks like he’s holding up well in this comparison. Can you add AD?

Now this is nice to read, and i hope it’s what they’ve been doing.

Thibs:
“We put a heavy emphasis on the player development aspect of it. Everyone’s bringing a different strength to the table and we’re very pleased with what they’ve done”
“I think our players are getting a lot of attention. I see them growing. I see them buying into what we’re trying to get accomplished”
“Obviously, it’s a long process and we have to go day by day. We put a premium on teaching and we think we have great teachers on the staff”

His recent history is one of not relating well to his young players. He had one of the game’s best under his tutelage, and failed badly. Maybe that will change here. I doubt it. Early returns are not good. Mouthing the right words is easy.

I wish I could be more optimistic and the season is still young, but I’m not seeing any reason for optimism. Still merc-heavy, still no spacing, still poorly-constructed lineups, etc. No imagination, no outside-the-box thinking. Just not seeing anything there at all.

Ingmarrrr: Looks like he’s holding up well in this comparison. Can you add AD?

AD (the block numbers are crazy!)
vs. Marist 23 min 23, 10, 5, .769
vs. Kansas 33 min 14, 6, 7! .750
vs. Penn St. 23 min 3, 6, 3, .500

So far…things appear to be going on plan:
1. Lose many games-check
2. Mitch/RJ get mucho playing time – check
3. Assess viability of lack thereof of other young’uns – DSJ/Frank prove they are not viable -check…Knox somewhere in between
4. Quickley/Toppin get run – should happen after recovery – check

The downside is having to watch Payton/Bullock/Noel et al…but that will resolve itself as we trudge down the road of worse team in the league…towards high lottery ticket.

I am also a little weary of Thibs…especially this offense…but I think you need to give him 30-40 games to sort out the mess that is the roster…if he’s still running the same offense through Randle then…well…time to get concerned….I can’t buy the “he’s the best option” argument…

Pepper, you left out:

5)Showcase the mercenaries enough that you may be able to collect an asset or three by flipping one or more of them to contenders at the deadline – check. I don’t know what the market will be for Burks, but there will clearly be one. And possibly one for Randle (though his destiny seems more likely as salary filler in a trade).

A coach committed to development would have poured over game film of Frank’s literally only two games ago game and tried to bottle and harness it. He did the exact opposite. A coach committed to development wouldn’t have essentially not played a first round PG in the first two exhibition games. He’s not committed to teaching or development, and that’s his history. He’s just mouthing platitudes.

An NBA coach’s job isn’t running good practices; an NBA coach’s job is to know which of his players’ practices don’t translate to the games, either positively or negatively. This is so blatantly obvious that it shouldn’t even need to be stated. His practice shtick is ridiculous, bordering on primitive. I can’t believe he would even have such thoughts, much less utter them out loud.

Z-man: AD (the block numbers are crazy!)
vs. Marist 23 min 23, 10, 5, .769
vs. Kansas 33 min 14, 6, 7! .750
vs. Penn St. 23 min 3, 6, 3, .500

Thanks. Yeah, I think he ended the year with 4.5 blocks which is a total wow.
Of the 4 centers Wiseman had the highest BPM in college, but the easiest SOS (by far) in his 3 games. I’m very curious to revisit this in 2-3 weeks.

And of course his high-school gym teacher attitude about practice gives us great insight as to how he’s rubbed so many people the wrong way for so long now, players and front office types and owners. That kind of petty shit just wears and wears on you and eventually you just want to get it the hell away from you.

Who coulda known that the NBA’s own Bobby Knight would be a bad fit in the era of players raised on Twitter and Twitch?

It’s a bad fit now, and was a bad fit in 1980 and 1990 and 2000 and 2010. I can’t speak to before that, but that shit has never gone over in the NBA. Magic had Paul Westhead fired in like 1981 or 1982. Iverson going on famously about Larry Brown and practice was … what … 20 years ago now?

E on the rampage! A little frightening.

Personally I’m okay (resigned) with where we are. As others stated, these first three games were losses going in. We were actually within spitting distance most of the last game, which is better than the Christmas games of purportedly decent teams. I’m voting for decent effort and losses, which we’re mostly getting.

Way too early to behead and bury Thibs in sewage. He has a shit-show of a roster with very little talent and not much sense to its construction, and no point guard to run the team. Blaming him for the result, especially after two games (that were guaranteed losses), seems a bit crazy town. I have no feelings one way or the other for him, didn’t like the choice that much, but I suspect he’s a better coach than we’ve had and will delay cutting off his head until at least half-way through this horrible season, much less until he has some decent players.

Mitch isn’t fouling as much, RJ is showing flashes, Burks is a player, I think Quickley was on his way to getting the heavy point minutes until the injury, Randle is playing decent. I don’t like Randle as a player much either, but saying it’s crazy to play through your only competent offensive player is in itself crazy. It’s like complaining about the sun rising in the east. You going to suggest we go back to ‘eat what you kill’ Knox in his rookie year? That went well for everyone.

Watching these games sucks, but losing sucks. We are going to lose a lot, and it’s what a lot of folks here want to have happen. Suck it up and watch them lose, or don’t watch if it’s too painful. It’s still better than last year’s disaster. The only thing I haven’t liked this year is our two best story lines getting hurt early and no Frank burn, as I figure this year is the last gasp and I was curious. But perhaps it’s clear to the coaching staff that he’ll never amount to a hill of beans. Okay, related, I don’t like giving PG duties to non-PGs. Run Harper…

In both games we played a solid half of basketball. It’s not Thibs’ fault that we missed open look after open look and that PHI has a much better roster than us. It’s not Thibs’ fault that Mitch keeps biting on fakes and unnecessarily using his hands down low. Randle is our best offensive player right now and he would be featured no matter who was coaching. The dude is rocking a .643 TS% and a 35.5 AST%. He is not the problem with our offense right now by any stretch.

Clearly Thibs is experimenting right now, deferring to vets and young guys who practice and play well. Things will change when Rivers, Obi and IQ come back. Things will also change if we lose to the CLEs and DETs of the league. But Randle is going to be featured on offense no matter what happens, and with the numbers he’s putting up, he should be.

I think Quickley was on his way to getting the heavy point minutes until the injury,

I think this is the heart of the matter. With Quickley and Rivers both hurt, his point guard options are dire: a guy whose inability to shoot renders his playmaking skills almost entirely moot, a guy who has lost whatever skills he came into the league with, and a guy who can shoot and pass a little but is so pathologically deferential that there might as well not be a point guard on the floor. Before Quickley got hip-checked, he looked in line to play the majority of the minutes for the rest of that game, given how long Thibs left him in there even after the other starters came back.

It is a sad state of affairs that our offense is reliant on the 25th pick in the draft and/or Austin flipping Rivers, but short of starting Jared Harper — which, honestly, I wouldn’t mind if Thibs tried — I’m not sure what else he can do right now. Start Burks and go without a traditional PG at all?

Ingmarrrr: Thanks. Yeah, I think he ended the year with 4.5 blocks which is a total wow.
Of the 4 centers Wiseman had the highest BPM in college, but the easiest SOS (by far) in his 3 games. I’m very curious to revisit this in 2-3 weeks.

The larger point is that even with the smallness of the sample size, he was the surest NBA front-of-rotation player in this draft. In that limited sample, he was as dominant as a C could possibly be at age 18 while just getting his feet wet. Oregon was a very good team last year…won the PAC-12. Going for 14 and 12 in 22 minutes against them (and they surely game planned for him by then) is no small feat. The dude would have had a monster college career if it weren’t for the scandal that led him to quit.

You can make an argument for Edwards and LaMelo based on upside, but he was certainly worthy of consideration at #1.

His per 36 numbers in his 2 maiden games are 27-10-2.2 with a .613 TS% and a .583FTr against two of the best teams in the NBA. Sure, he’s not going to shoot 80% from 3, but no matter how you look at it, that’s still really hard for a 19yo to do. He’s the real deal.

Z-man: His per 36 numbers in his 2 maiden games are 27-10-2.2 with a .613 TS% and a .583FTr against two of the best teams in the NBA. Sure, he’s not going to shoot 80% from 3, but no matter how you look at it, that’s still really hard for a 19yo to do. He’s the real deal.

Wasn’t there a talk that we were offering Mitch plus something for the #2? Or was it just one of the polls.

I had mentioned the other day that the league is getting saturated with rotation-level players on most of the 30 teams. Good players are going to shake loose in the next couple of years unless the NBA adds a couple of expansion teams. This will surely include some G-League PGs who just need some seasoning. I hope we stay patient, give IQ a chance and keep our eyes open for those players, and then hope for a favorable outcome in the draft.

Alan: I think Quickley was on his way to getting the heavy point minutes until the injury,

He barely played him the first two preseason games and didn’t start him in the first game over Elfrid F Payton. The relative quality might eventually smack him in the face, but it’s hard to give a whole lot of credit for that.

Alan: and a guy who can shoot and pass a little but is so pathologically deferential that there might as well not be a point guard on the floor.

I don’t disagree at all with this analysis, other than to the extent that it doesn’t mention his elite defense, but nor do I think there’s a chance in holy hell that always being on probation has helped cause that deference. Zero chance. That’s a massive developmental failure. Frank needed to have confidence placed in him — it obviously doesn’t come that much from within — and if it had been, the story would have been completely different. That’s obviously an historical counterfactual at this point and there’s no need dwelling on it too, too much. His ceiling certainly isn’t monumentally high, but he’s a very usable asset if developed and used right. Having that possibility thrown overboard for Elfrid Payton and Emmanuel Mudiay is incompetent and ridiculous.

I mean, look — the Knicks were run by incompetents since at least 2017 and arguably even back to 2014 — although I don’t see Jackson as incompetent as Mills. But Mills is completely incompetent, with no business whatsoever in that job. He’s never done any kind of personnel job for any other organization, because he doesn’t have the skills. The head of basketball personnel decisions for the Knicks had no interest in any basketball job from any other team in the league. Ever. Chew on that. This is why we’re left with these little, pointless battles and discussions about things like Julius Randle.

Ingmarrrr: Wasn’t there a talk that we were offering Mitch plus something for the #2? Or was it just one of the polls.

I never heard anything about Knicks interest in Wiseman. Nor do I think it would have been a good move, simply because I don’t think the difference between him and Mitch is enough to have merited that trade. To be fair, given what was known at draft time, Wiseman’s realistic floor was at or slightly below a Mitch-level player…and the argument against picking him in the top 3 was that you could get that kind of player these days on 7-figure deals at any time. But if the 3-pt shooting levels off in the mid-high 30’s, the sky’s the limit for him.

Z-man: I don’t think the difference between him and Mitch is enough to have merited that trade.

I whole heartedly disagree. I love Mitch, but I think Wiseman’s ceiling is elite.

We overrate Mitch around here. He’s a limited player. Effective in his niche to be sure, but limited. No need to belabor or to get hip deep back into the TS% illusion stuff. No one else in the association sees him in the way we do. His comps the last two games were Sabonis and Embiid and … well … nothing more really need be said. Tonight it’s Giannis. Ditto.

Most likely, he was offered around to CHA and GSW to move up a few spots in the draft and neither bit.

His per 36 numbers in his 2 maiden games are 27-10-2.2 with a .613 TS% and a .583FTr against two of the best teams in the NBA. Sure, he’s not going to shoot 80% from 3, but no matter how you look at it, that’s still really hard for a 19yo to do. He’s the real deal.

the bolded parts kind of contradict each other…

wiseman’s 2p% is 42%… his ws48 is only .107… if you’re going to use the box score… use and look at everything instead of cherrypicking volatile stats…

there’s plenty of time for wiseman to prove that he’s in the upper echelon of bigs… here’s KAT’s gamelog… here’s anthony davis… you can look at the college game too but now you have direct nba comparisons… those are probably more informative than the college game at the moment… and yes wiseman falls way short in 2p% ….

that doesn’t mean he can’t get there… it’s 2 games fer chrissakes…. like why are we even talking about this? but it’s super premature to even talk about comparisons because so much of everything we see is so volatile….

just wait….. if he’s like any of these guys it won’t take much longer to show it… we’re not there yet….

E, I hate watching Payton play, but nor do I think it is wildly unreasonable for any coach to start the season with the veteran who has the track record of being mostly competent at the position over the 25th pick in the draft whose track record as a point guard was an impressive game and a half against the Cavaliers’ G-League squad. And besides, the way the rotations were breaking in the opener made it clear that Thibs was either at or incredibly close to the “I’ve seen enough” point with Payton. Then Quickley got hurt. Nothing to be done there.

As for Frank, I don’t disagree that he was horribly mishandled by Hornacek and Fizdale. But the unfortunate past is past, and Frank is what he is: a defensive ace who either cannot or will not orchestrate an offense, and who can shoot passably from deep while not shooting at a high enough volume for it to matter. Thibs didn’t break him, but Frank the point guard is broken, and what value he has to this or any other team is as a reserve wing who comes in to try to lock down the opponent’s hottest scorer.

The roster so far is the problem, not anything Thibs has done. And if you believe that FVV wasn’t coming here for any dollar figure, then our non-Payton options for a veteran point guard were A)Give up RJ or Mitch plus picks to get Chris Paul, B)Wildly overpay for DJ Augustin, or C)Take on Russell Westbrook’s heinous contract.

Z-Man, pre-draft Berman wrote that ” One source senses the Knicks have Ball and Wiseman as two players they absolutely ‘love,’ and haven’t been as smitten yet with any other prospect in a consensus weak draft.”

So there was some Wiseman/Knicks smoke there, though more in the context of them pondering a trade-down, since they didn’t expect Wiseman or Ball to fall to 8.

E, I hate watching Payton play, but nor do I think it is wildly unreasonable for any coach to start the season with the veteran who has the track record of being mostly competent at the position

He’s not mostly competent at the position. (I guess technically he doesn’t lay a brick or make a turnover or pass to the wrong guy on *every* possession, just way too many, although he does ruin the spacing on every possession. If that translates to “mostly competent, ok.) He’s only seen that way around here because of the low bar phenomenon I mentioned above.

Alan: position over the 25th pick in the draft whose track record as a point guard was an impressive game and a half against the Cavaliers’ G-League squad.

It wasn’t just IQ that was impressive; the whole team was and the whole offense looked different. If Thibs can’t see that, well, there you go. It was blatantly obvious. The second game wasn’t their G-League team either; it was Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Osman/JaVale — three starters, two heavy rotation players.

Alan: Thibs didn’t break him, but Frank the point guard is broken, and what value he has to this or any other team is as a reserve wing who comes in to try to lock down the opponent’s hottest scorer.

A better coach would have looked at film from the DC game — two games ago!! — and tried to harness and build upon it. There’s no sense in which that was a “broken point guard.” But instead we have, “Under me, you earn your minutes in practice.”

We’re just rationalizing for the guy at this point and he’s still kind of in his honeymoon. But there’s nothing he’s done or said that would lead to any sensible optimism, particularly given his rather dreadful experience in Minnesota. I’m not going to begrudge people their optimism, but it’s just a honeymoon thing.

Alan: Start Burks and go without a traditional PG at all?

As someone else said, i’m not a fan of giving the PG spot to non-PG guys. But if he’s going to try it, at least start the guy and try it when they’re focused on the schemes they’ve practiced. To try it only when the game is already derailing, that’s like setting up the experience to fail.

E, before getting hurt IQ played ~12.5 minutes to Payton’s ~8.5 minutes. If you’re really obsessed with starts, you’d have a right to be mad but you’d also be incredibly silly. What matters is minutes played and I doubt you’ll convince anyone on this board otherwise. But feel free to make the attempt.

Frank building on his DC game requires him to do more than dribble to halfcourt and pickup the ball. That’s on Frank.

djphan: the bolded parts kind of contradict each other…

What was his 2pt% in college? Maybe we should expect it to come up as well? Or are we going to go back to kindergarten to support the idea that it won’t?

djphan: there’s plenty of time for wiseman to prove that he’s in the upper echelon of bigs… here’s KAT’s gamelog… here’s anthony davis… you can look at the college game too but now you have direct nba comparisons… those are probably more informative than the college game at the moment… and yes wiseman falls way short in 2p% ….

Looks like Wiseman’s stats compare very favorably to KAT (who debuted against 2 lottery teams) and AD…thanks for making my argument for me (except for your hang-up on 2pt% which gets kinda creepy)

djphan: that doesn’t mean he can’t get there… it’s 2 games fer chrissakes…. like why are we even talking about this? but it’s super premature to even talk about comparisons because so much of everything we see is so volatile….

Why shouldn’t we talk about it? Why do you even respond to my posts if it isn’t to talk about it? Who the fuck are you to tell folks here what should or shouldn’t be talked about?

Z-man, your takes continue to be non-sensical and unecessarily inflammatory. Leave djphan alone. You’re instigating for no reason as you often do.

It’s been mentioned a number of times before, but one other thing that’s annoyed me (because it’s fixable, as compared to the many things that are not) is so little P&R, especially with Mitch. One of the things I loved about IQ’s brief time was his repeatedly and almost angrily calling Mitch to come up for a high P&R. It seemed to change the complexion of everything that came after. Pointless with Elf cuz he can’t shoot, but if you’re going to have someone like Burks be a pseudo-point, run that play. It’s not rocket science.

They don’t run the pick and roll much because the pick and roll didn’t really come back into massive favor until after Thibs’s peak and impressionable coaching years. The game has passed him by. I half expect him to ask “how’s it goink” sometime this year.

Millennial spends three-quarters of his time on the internet mocking Boomer for screaming at clouds and well, now we have Boomer Knick coach spending every waking coaching moment screaming at clouds. Get after it, Millennial.

Looks like Wiseman’s stats compare very favorably to KAT (who debuted against 2 lottery teams) and AD…thanks for making my argument for me (except for your hang-up on 2pt% which gets kinda creepy)

2pt% is very important…. if you’re below 50% like wiseman is now you don’t belong in the conversation…. it involves leveraging your length and physical tools to dominate inside the paint… which if you’ve watched his game he’s been unable to do as he’s floating around on the perimeter which was the biggest knock against him…. kat.. embiid and AD get those tough buckets down low…. they’ve established that…

wiseman still could but he hasn’t proven that yet….

Looks like Wiseman’s stats compare very favorably to KAT (who debuted against 2 lottery teams) and AD…thanks for making my argument for me (except for your hang-up on 2pt% which gets kinda creepy)

because it’s a discussion without evidence… we can talk how wiseman compares against them but again.. why stop there.. why aren’t we invoking hakeem or wilt or david robinson…. why aren’t we talking about lamelo as magic too while we’re at it or edwards as the next dwyane wade… it’s hyperbolic… it’s extremely reactionary to 2 games…. and yes it’s a bit unreasonable and premature for the reasons stated….

you can say whatever you want… obviously tha’ts not going to stop you…. but somebody can also tell you that you’re talking crazy….. and that’s really all it is… for someone who has so many opinions on every subject surely you realize that you could somehow possibly be taking the hot takes a tad too far sometimes…

right? you have that sort of self awareness i hope?

Querly Q-Word, Pen Name of Pen Name Early Bird:
Z-man, your takes continue to be non-sensical and unecessarily inflammatory. Leave djphan alone. You’re instigating for no reason as you often do.

Whoa Early Bird, he responded to my posts and I was having a perfectly civil convo with Ingmarrr. And I don’t take kindly to anyone who says “why are we even talking about this?” If you have a problem with that, I truly don’t give a shit.

Well, people on other forums (P&T, reddit, whatever) pannicking after 2 games, was overly expected. But when the panic reaches KB, maybe this means the front office will also panic sooner than later… how much more games until a stupid trade comes our way?

Who wants to trade the farm for Harden and “travel in time” to 2011?

rank seems to be a perfectly fine point guard for France. I’m not going to accede to the assumption that somehow grew hold that he can’t play point guard. He’s not prototypical, to be sure. I’m not going to rehash a bunch of old stuff, but he should be playing for this team. He’s stupidly been on some kind of probation his whole time here, while shittier players got pass after pass after pass.

This is pretty much the complete opposite of the truth. During Frank’s first three seasons he averaged 20+ MPG in all of them despite statistically being one of the worst players in the NBA. He was never sent to the G-League and never removed from the rotation, both of which would’ve been open-and-shut decisions on the merits alone. There is not a team in the NBA he would’ve played more for during that time. A more convincing argument would be that the utter lack of accountability for his ghastly play damaged his development, though I think that’s harsh as I don’t think he ever had the talent to be in an NBA rotation.

The assumption (read: consensus) that he can’t play point guard developed when over three seasons he could not dribble, pass, or shoot all that well. I know you think statistics are one big anti-Frank conspiracy so I’ll make a more visceral appeal: how many times do you need to watch this guy cross half court, sheepishly dump the ball off to Randle or whoever, and then completely remove himself from the play before you say to yourself “huh, maybe that guy can’t play the position charged with running an NBA offense?”

The only question remaining is whether or not he can be a wing. Maybe he can if he can learn to shoot threes 1) with much more accuracy and 2) at a much higher volume). That’s…a lot to learn after not demonstrating it at all in years 1-3, but the good news we’ll find out!

It’s been mentioned a number of times before, but one other thing that’s annoyed me (because it’s fixable, as compared to the many things that are not) is so little P&R, especially with Mitch. One of the things I loved about IQ’s brief time was his repeatedly and almost angrily calling Mitch to come up for a high P&R. It seemed to change the complexion of everything that came after. Pointless with Elf cuz he can’t shoot, but if you’re going to have someone like Burks be a pseudo-point, run that play. It’s not rocket science.

burks doesn’t exactly run it all that well… he’s never really been a ballhandler or actually i don’t think he’s ever run the pnr with any regularity in his other stops….

thibs used to love the side pnr in chicago and at least early in his minnesota stint…. to my knowledge we’ve probably ran it only a handful of times in these two games and we’ve abandoned it in favor of running the offense exclusively through randle in the post and at the elbows…. i think that’s a questionable decision but things are definitely different from typical thibs uses … what has been similar is that the offense has devolved into a lot of iso ball….

the offense is definitely not in sync as of yet so that’s probably a good portion of why that’s happening but that’s also defined his offenses in chicago and minnesota…. with rose, wiggins, butler and crawford taking up outsized usage because of it…. we’ll see how much evolves over time but it’s something folks should pay attention to…

thenoblefacehumper: how many times do you need to watch this guy cross half court, sheepishly dump the ball off to Randle or whoever, and then completely remove himself from the play before you say to yourself “huh, maybe that guy can’t play the position charged with running an NBA offense?”

That’s the offense he was told to run by the incompetents that have run this team. AKA, the problem.

djphan: because it’s a discussion without evidence… we can talk how wiseman compares against them but again.. why stop there.. why aren’t we invoking hakeem or wilt or david robinson…. why aren’t we talking about lamelo as magic too while we’re at it or edwards as the next dwyane wade… it’s hyperbolic… it’s extremely reactionary to 2 games…. and yes it’s a bit unreasonable and premature for the reasons stated….

you can say whatever you want… obviously tha’ts not going to stop you…. but somebody can also tell you that you’re talking crazy….. and that’s really all it is… for someone who has so many opinions on every subject surely you realize that you could somehow possibly be taking the hot takes a tad too far sometimes…

It’s not without evidence. It’s just not with evidence that you find either credible or voluminous enough. Which is fine, that’s what people do before, during, and after the draft. I didn’t try to shut you down when you wrote paragraphs about RJ after 1 game. And btw, it’s not like we’re discussing a 2nd round flash in the pan. It’s a very hot topic of discussion across the NBA. You are fixated on 2pt% so that limits your degree of interest, I get that. So don’t talk about it!

Bottom line is, he looked great in college and has looked very good in 2 NBA games, so there is less reason for pessimism at this point than there was before the draft. No one is putting him in the HOF.

I was pretty ardently anti-Thibs and even I think some of y’all are overreacting. This feels like a roster construction, not a coaching, issue. Payton has been awful, but right now the other options are DSJ, Frank Ntilikina, and Jared Harper. Can anyone really say they’re sure Thibs is making a suboptimal decision here?

Quickley definitely passed the low bar needed to get extended PG minutes on this team, and that looked like the plan in game 1 before he got hurt. If he doesn’t get those minutes upon his return, I’ll be just as mad as the next guy.

I understand the frustration as these games have been ugly affairs. I just don’t see a clearly better way Thibs can arrange these particular deckchairs on this particular Titanic. Don’t blame me, I wanted to draft Tyrese Haliburton!

I also understand the frustration with Randle, who presumptively isn’t part of our future, being our highest usage player. It’s a drag. It also clearly gives us the best chance to win with this roster and is the only way we stand a prayer of getting something for him. So whatcha gonna do?

Wiseman’s college stats are like Quickley’s preseason stats-largely irrelevant. Does nobody on here understand sample size anymore? Wiseman played 69 minutes in college and took 26 shots.

That’s the offense he was told to run by the incompetents that have run this team. AKA, the problem.

He’s been doing it since he was a rookie. Have all four of his head coaches said “okay Frank here’s the plan: you cross half court, dump the ball off to someone else, and stand in the corner and do nothing?” Why have none of the other point guards who have passed through here been running the same “offense?”

I didn’t try to shut you down when you wrote paragraphs about RJ after 1 game.

what paragraphs of rj did i write? could you quote what you have a problem with?

Bottom line is, he looked great in college and has looked very good in 2 NBA games, so there is less reason for pessimism at this point than there was before the draft. No one is putting him in the HOF.

that is what is false.. he’s shooting 80% from the 3… it’s universally recognized as unsustainable…. to then say his ts% is part of the reasons why he’s on track to be in the upper echelon of nba bigs just totally ignores that…. it’s contradictory and it’s bad reasoning…. there’s no arguing that …..

Can anyone really say they’re sure Thibs is making a suboptimal decision here?

Yes, I’m sure Thibs is making a suboptimal decision here and I’m happy to really say it multiple times. Elfrid Payton is a godawful basketball player. The contrast between when he is in the game and when a shooting threat is in the game couldn’t be clearer.

thenoblefacehumper: Quickley definitely passed the low bar needed to get extended PG minutes on this team, and that looked like the plan in game 1 before he got hurt. If he doesn’t get those minutes upon his return, I’ll be just as mad as the next guy.

We really need to stop apologizing for Thibs for this one. Immanuel Quickley barely played the first two preseason games. When he finally got in the game, he outplayed Elfrid Payton by Superman-ish leaps and bounds and didn’t get the start over Elfrid Payton on opening night. There was no indication he was going to start last night before the injury. There’s no real evidence Tom Thibodeau prefers him to Elfrid Payton. If ultimately he has to be beaten over the head with the obvious to finally do the obvious, that’s an indictment of him, not a point in his favor.

It also clearly gives us the best chance to win with this roster and is the only way we stand a prayer of getting something for him. So whatcha gonna do?

I’ll actually be surprised if the Knicks don’t exercise his option, or rip it up and extend him.

thenoblefacehumper: He’s been doing it since he was a rookie. Have all four of his head coaches said “okay Frank here’s the plan: you cross half court, dump the ball off to someone else, and stand in the corner and do nothing?” Why have none of the other point guards who have passed through here been running the same “offense?”

They have. They all do the handoff to “point forward” Randle play constantly. Haven’t you been watching the games? As everyone’s noticed, they very rarely run screen roll, they very rarely instigate forceful action from the point. Randle instigates forceful action from areas on the floor normal teams have the PG function from — typically with flailing bullshit, occasional outliers notwithstanding.

And when Randle isn’t in the game, they don’t really run that stupid action and the offense functions fine. The lineup data, as I’ve posted, with Frank and floor spacers last year was relatively quite good.

DRed:
Wiseman’s college stats are like Quickley’s preseason stats-largely irrelevant.Does nobody on here understand sample size anymore?Wiseman played 69 minutes in college and took 26 shots.

In my fantasy world we have Morant and Wiseman because we tanked smartly so these two #2 picks are on the Knicks and sample size be damned.

Who in the FO or coaching staff leaked to Bondy that Payton was still working on his shot at the Garden after the game? I’m assuming Bondy didn’t see it himself, although I guess it’s possible he did.

About Frank and DSJ, shouldn’t we do what most teams do with their disappointing lottery picks, which is finding another team with disappointing players (for them, hopefully we saw something in them) and trade them? Sometimes a change of scenery is all it takes for a player to breakout (eg, Oladipo, Victor).

Is there players throughout the league that fit this description? Maybe Romeo Langford, Jarrett Culver, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Hamidou Diallo (he’s from Queens NY and went to UK, that’s a match! :P), Anfernee Simons, Moritz Wagner (he’s a PF/C, i know)?

Last night Payton definitely camped out a lot in the corner a lot rather than run the offense. Not much point in him doing that since he can’t shoot. DSJ appeared to do that a lot, too.

He’s definitely a better PG than DSJ or Frank, but I’d rather they play those two if the plan is to run the O through Randle. Frank would at least bring D to the table, though the more he plays, the more likely he gets hurt.

Wow, Jets dominating the Browns so far…

The Knicks have played two games, both against teams with really good interior defenders. I’m going to guess that has had something to do with the lack of pnr’s being run. Tonight won’t be a whole lot better. I’m going to wait a few weeks before passing any judgement on Thibs offense.

Normal coaches coming in to a bad team would see a 21 year old guard who in the nine games after the AS break the previous year played elite defense with a .580 TS% would probably … you know … try to harness and develop that. But I guess practice is practice.

E, two-way G-Leaguer:
Normal coaches coming in to a bad team would see a 21 year old guard who in the nine games after the AS break the previous year played elite defense with a .580 TS% would probably … you know … try to harness and develop that. But I guess practice is practice.

Emphasis added.

The good news is as I understand the prophecy, soon Frank will be on a Smart Team who understands his latent powers. In other words, he’s bound to be rotation player on a good team.

So unlike a lot of arguments we have on here this will be settled, and the people who don’t think a .580 TS% with 17.4% USG over an eight game sample in which Frank took 58 total FGAs means much of anything will be owned.

Out of our stinky lottery bust prospects, Kevin Knox looks the best. And he still looks like dogshit.

Frank and DSJ look like sub-dogshit.

thenoblefacehumper: The good news is as I understand the prophecy, soon Frank will be on a Smart Team who understands his latent powers. In other words, he’s bound to be rotation player on a good team.

San Antonio is not a good team anymore! ;P

There’s no real evidence Tom Thibodeau prefers him to Elfrid Payton.

Are you doing a bit? He played 18 minutes and got hurt

We’re all sad on how the Knicks are playing and pointing fingers to the (presumed) culprits, when all we’re missing is Farfa’s recaps, of course! So don’t blame Thibs, blame Farfa! 😀

that is what is false.. he’s shooting 80% from the 3… it’s universally recognized as unsustainable…. to then say his ts% is part of the reasons why he’s on track to be in the upper echelon of nba bigs just totally ignores that…. it’s contradictory and it’s bad reasoning…. there’s no arguing that …..

The sample size is VERY small, and it is pointless to discuss it. But if for whatever reason you decide to use it, it is better to look the overall numbers and not dissect it even more. What I am trying to say is that TS%, which sums over 2P% and 3P% (and FT%) should have less variance than any of its components separately. In any case, the variance is going to be EXTREMELY high, as we ourselves could test with RJs 1st and 2nd games of the season.

In the end of the 1st quarter, Dallas are up 36-13 against the Clippers. I guess they’re missing the polarizing figure of a 2nd star.

iserp: The sample size is VERY small, and it is pointless to discuss it. But if for whatever reason you decide to use it, it is better to look the overall numbers and not dissect it even more. What I am trying to say is that TS%, which sums over 2P% and 3P% (and FT%) should have less variance than any of its components separately. In any case, the variance is going to be EXTREMELY high, as we ourselves could test with RJs 1st and 2nd games of the season.

I agree it’s pointless to discuss a 2 game sample. Pretty sure djphan feels the same way.

But TS% is only more stable than the underlying numbers if we assume the underlying numbers have equal variance. However, we know that 2p% is fairly stable, 3p% is wildly unstable, and TS% gives more weight to the unstable variable (since 3PM are worth 1.5x as much as 2PM).

Overall TS% is going to mischaracterize small samples precisely because of the differences in variance between 3p% and 2p%.

To account for these random variations, it makes sense to use average 3p%. The problem with Wiseman is we don’t know what his average 3p% is. We can assume he’s a league average shooter, assume he’s an average shooter for his position, or give him the extreme benefit of the doubt and assume he’s an elite 3pt shooter.

Even under the last scenario, we see an underwhelming efficiency from Wiseman.

But yeah, it’s all kinda pointless unless we get a larger sample size.

Alan:
Kawhi is out, but that score nonetheless does not make me happy so far.

I think the expected range for the Dallas pick will be 15-25, expecting it to be in the lottery with an healthy Luka is a reach.

62-18. Everything falling for Dallas, and nothing at all for the Clippers. Any minute now this is supposed to level a bit.

Querly Q-Word, Pen Name of Pen Name Early Bird: I agree it’s pointless to discuss a 2 game sample. Pretty sure djphan feels the same way.

But TS% is only more stable than the underlying numbers if we assume the underlying numbers have equal variance. However, we know that 2p% is fairly stable, 3p% is wildly unstable, and TS% gives more weight to the unstable variable (since 3PM are worth 1.5x as much as 2PM).

Overall TS% is going to mischaracterize small samples precisely because of the differences in variance between 3p% and 2p%.

To account for these random variations, it makes sense to use average 3p%. The problem with Wiseman is we don’t know what his average 3p% is. We can assume he’s a league average shooter, assume he’s an average shooter for his position, or give him the extreme benefit of the doubt and assume he’s an elite 3ptshooter.

Even under the last scenario, we see an underwhelming efficiency from Wiseman.

But yeah, it’s all kinda pointless unless we get a larger sample size.

I don’t know, by those arguments you could also consider him an average 2P% shooter, instead of his 42% in limited attempts. In any case, since 3pt are more difficult than 2P%, we could probably consider that his FG% is a better estimator of his real 2P% than his current 2P% numbers (which would put him as a 50% 2pt shooter).

65-20, the clippers are receiving a spanking.

Gonna stop watching this game or else i’ll waste all my share of lopsided games minutes, and i have the Knicks to watch later on! 😉

Sample size is important, but I wouldn’t need more than one quarter of one college game to conclude that Shaq or Wilt or Kareem were sure-fire immortal players. Wiseman isn’t that, but he’s pretty far removed from needing to see a lot more of him to conclude that he’s going to be a very good NBA player. He not going to get any shorter, weaker or less long. His excellent shooting form and ball rotation on those threes isn’t going to change. He’s not going to stop doing things like this.

If you guys want to wait around to jump on board with him, fine. I’ve seen enough. He’s already doing elite things out there at age 19 and he doesn’t even have a clue yet. He’s only gonna get better…a lot better. Ask Draymond and Kerr. They see it too.

It’s gotten to a point where these threads are becoming insufferable because I have to constantly scroll past E’s annoying, trolling posts.

What did people here expect with the first 3 games being against Indiana, Philly and Milwaukee?? This team is still gonna win in the mid-20’s and unfortunately pick again in the lower end of the Top 10. Once they start playing weaker teams they are gonna win some games and look pretty good doing so at times.

Just checked a greek betting company
They give 1,10 to Mil (you bet 10$ and get 11$ if bucks win)
They give 7,50 to NY (you bet 10$ and get 75$ if a meteorite hits the bucks bench during the timeout)
That’s easy money right here
I’m going All in!

The truth about these first games is that even all the coaches of the world together couldn’t save us from 0-3 not just Thibs alone.
And the fact that we haven’t been exactly unbearable is positive.
Games are almost watchable.(Partially at least)

BigBlueAL: It’s gotten to a point where these threads are becoming insufferable because I have to constantly scroll past E’s annoying, trolling posts.

I’m with you, man.

Ian Begley @IanBegley:
Looks like Obi Toppin will miss at least 6 games with calf strain; Immanuel Quickley likely out tonight vs. Milwaukee; Tom Thibodeau likes Alec Burks’ versatility, including as a lead guard. Burks & Dennis Smith Jr. played bulk of backup PG minutes vs PHI.

like why are we even talking about this?
and it is pointless to discuss it.
because it’s a discussion without evidence
you could somehow possibly be taking the hot takes a tad too far sometimes
There’s no real evidence
there’s no arguing that …..

“I do not think it means what you think it means.”

BigBlueAL: What did people here expect with the first 3 games being against Indiana, Philly and Milwaukee?? This team is still gonna win in the mid-20’s and unfortunately pick again in the lower end of the Top 10. Once they start playing weaker teams they are gonna win some games and look pretty good doing so at times.

Never said a word about their record, give zero fucks if they win 18, 20, 22, or 25 games if the team is anchored by Julius Randle, Elfrid Payton, Alec Burks, and Reggie Bullock. I’d rather they play the kids and win 10 (assuming that would happen, which I don’t). Why would you want a bunch of mercenaries to ruin their draft position in a great draft? Makes zero sense.

iserp: I don’t know, by those arguments you could also consider him an average 2P% shooter, instead of his 42% in limited attempts. In any case, since 3pt are more difficult than 2P%, we could probably consider that his FG% is a better estimator of his real 2P% than his current 2P% numbers (which would put him as a 50% 2pt shooter).

65-20, the clippers are receiving a spanking.

Again, this ignores the difference in variance between 3p% and 2p%. On average your 2p% will regress to the mean much faster than your 3p%. This is because 2p% and fg% include attempts at the rim, which are a very different skill than anything outside of 3ft and don’t vary much at all.

If we want to lump midrange shots and 3pt shots in together, this makes more sense (as much as any sample of 2 games can make sense), because they have higher variability than shots at the rim.

You can slice it a lot of ways, but few ways make Wiseman look like Embiid or KAT after 2 games. He looks very good but not in that echelon.

I’m totally fine with humorous trolling here and there. Or with premature predictions, irrational idolisations and crow feeding frenzy.

“Mavs 77, Clippers 27 at the half. Per @ESPNStatsInfo, that’s the biggest halftime deficit in an NBA game during the shot-clock era, which started in 1954-55.”

@alan: i don’t watch other teams all that often, and i had never watched Dallas before, but seems like i was witnessing history. so i hereby promise you that i won’t watch any games of Dallas in seasons when we have their draft pick. 😉

Gonna stop watching this game or else i’ll waste all my share of lopsided games minutes, and i have the Knicks to watch later on! 😉

seriously, too much bad basketball is detrimental to your happiness…i’m committed (at least for one more game) to watching the knicks play ball…i have zero desire to invest any more of my very limited time here on earth watching shitty sports…

at least that’s one positive from 2020, i’m fine without watching sports…the only trouble though – i’ve replaced some of that sports boob tube time with “news” – talk about some shit not always so good for your well-being…

i can’t remember who stuck the thought in my head last year reference cheering for laundry – but, that’s sort of how i feel regarding these short deals for marginal roster guys…

the thing is though – our rent-a-player choices the last two years have been significantly better than in previous years…yeah, that’s some sorry shit to think about…

but, as long as they’re decent human beings and have some basketball skills, i’m okay rooting for them to do well…i actually fondly remember michael beaseley’s time here…he was exactly who he was, our front office chose to sign him…there it is…

i don’t blame frank or knox for sucking so bad during their first however many years in the league…we drafted them, we did/did not develop them, not their fault…frank’s health stuff notwithstanding…

what may actually break me and say fuck it though – is the total disregard for obtaining an offensive playmaker…for getting at least one guy that makes other guys better on offense…granted, finding players that can shoot wouldn’t be too bad a thing either, but, i think it was woody who was the last coach we had that was able to get a handle on turnovers…i think he had kidd and felton though at least…

we’re in the middle of the pack after two games at 16 TO’s a game…it looks a lot worse out on the court though…

i will say this, i like what thibs has done so far with julius…

Raven: “I do not think it means what you think it means.”

  

what part do you have a tough time understanding? i can help you but not when you’re being passive aggressive….

The Clips only lost the second half by 1. Progress.

Luka is 2-16 from three to start the season.

Also, Toppin has been injured sonce training camp apparently. “Nicked up”

Raven:
like why are we even talking about this?
and it is pointless to discuss it.
because it’s a discussion without evidence
you could somehow possibly be taking the hot takes a tad too far sometimes
There’s no real evidence
there’s no arguing that …..

“I do not think it means what you think it means.”

lol

It’s a quote from the Princess Bride. It’s fairly straightforward, not passive-aggressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTRKCXC0JFg

Here, let’s break it down, once again…

like why are we even talking about this?
and it is pointless to discuss it.

Um, because this is a sports blog. We could, and arguably should, go for a walk or read a book or converse with our partners rather than participating, but this is a place for discussing the Knicks. Those of us with the irrational urge to do this, do so. That’s the why. Is it pointless? Well sure, but I’d argue that’s part of the fun.

because it’s a discussion without evidence
There’s no real evidence
there’s no arguing that …..

As a scientist, I know that there’s never enough evidence. How much to make a decision is always the question. We don’t involve ourselves in statistical analyses with assumed probability distributions here. Everyone on this site knows two games isn’t enough to be very sure of anything. But there’s always room to argue, even with just a tiny sample size — ‘there’s no arguing that’ is inconceivable (see PB quote). And finally…

you could somehow possibly be taking the hot takes a tad too far sometimes

This is the one that really made me laugh. It’s a HOT TAKE. Taking it a tad too far is sort of the point.

I would ague that trying to silence the people you are debating with by stating that they are pointless, have no evidence, and that there’s nothing to argue about (clearly wrong! lots of evidence to the contrary!) seems the passive-aggressive methodology to me. Along with your tendency to use rhetorical (I hope) statements to belittle the other side (‘Am I crazy?’).

Bring your sense of humor and leave the ego at the door.

Owen: Also, Toppin has been injured sonce training camp apparently. “Nicked up”

  

Everything about it seemed that way. Not surprised. Probably made it worse by playing on it.

Hope he practiced hard. (That’s a sarcastic remark. Is that ok?)

As a scientist, I know that there’s never enough evidence. How much to make a decision is always the question. We don’t involve ourselves in statistical analyses with assumed probability distributions here. Everyone on this site knows two games isn’t enough to be very sure of anything. But there’s always room to argue, even with just a tiny sample size — ‘there’s no arguing that’ is inconceivable (see PB quote). And finally…

i really would love to rehash this whole thread with you but it’s all out there…. multiple people have pointed out how many are drawing too many conclusions from small samples… so after you’re done reading… what are you talking about again?

and i don’t know what you meant by sliding in the whole scientist shpiel…. but that seems sort of a forced maneuver …. what were you saying about ppl with egos? does being a scientist mean that you’re also an expert at reading comprehension? because i think that’s more applicable than your judgement on evidence that you seem to want to be an arbiter of so badly….

I would ague that trying to silence the people you are debating with by stating that they are pointless, have no evidence, and that there’s nothing to argue about (clearly wrong! lots of evidence to the contrary!) seems the passive-aggressive methodology to me. Along with your tendency to use rhetorical (I hope) statements to belittle the other side (‘Am I crazy?’).

who’s trying to silence people? you think i have that power to stop z-man and e tip tapping on this blog 50 times a day to share whatever crackpot basketball insights they had?

if you say stupid shit… ppl gonna tell you you’re saying stupid shit… they tell you that in science school right?

like saying… clearly 2 games is qualifed as plenty of evidence but in the same breath we all know it’s insufficient…

so which is it?

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