From Peter Botte:
Nerlens Noel, part of the Knicks’ ever-expanding Kentucky connection, started the first two preseason games at center before sitting out the next two with a sore left knee.
Mitchell Robinson said earlier in camp that he doesn’t mind coming off the bench, but the third-year big man moved into the starting lineup in Noel’s absence the past two games and was particularly “terrific,” according to coach Tom Thibodeau, in Friday’s 36-point rout of the Cavaliers at the Garden.
The 22-year-old Robinson scored eight points, grabbed 12 rebounds and blocked four shots without committing a personal foul, and the Knicks were a whopping plus-46 in the 27 minutes he was on the floor.
“He was terrific. The same thing can be said for him about the way he’s been practicing and working and getting there early and staying late, practicing well, concentrating,” Thibodeau said after the game. “I thought he played as hard as he could.
“He was on the floor, he was everywhere. He was on the rim, knocking shots away, rebounding the ball, sprinting into screens, putting pressure on the rim. Did a ton of good things. We’ll take a look at the film and keep pushing him to get better.”
On Dec. 1, Thibodeau said Robinson “has a long way to go,” adding the Knicks were “very fortunate to have Noel” as a complement and mentor.
Robinson has come off the bench in 101 of his 127 career games, including only six starts last season.
Still, the 7-footer set an NBA record in 2019-20 with a .742 field goal percentage, and he’s finished second and seventh in the league in blocked shots in his first two seasons, respectively.
So let’s do this as part of our all-poll content…
Sorry, there are no polls available at the moment.
148 replies on “NY Post: Mitchell Robinson looked ‘terrific’ as Knicks starter”
Voting with my heart, not my long memory of Knicks fandom, and went with Quickley and Mitch. Though the point in the last thread about keeping IQ out of early foul trouble at the start of his career wasn’t bad, the starters just desperately need a PG who can shoot.
And Thibs looked so delighted talking about Mitch the other night. Starting Noel may have worked as a motivational tactic.
My guess is that the Knicks get a day or two off this weekend and then two or three days of practice before Thibs has to make the starting decision. I think Peyton will get the nod unless something dramatic happens in practice, but Noel and Robinson could go down to the wire.
I voted for Payton and Mitch. Thibs’ comments on Mitch sound like Thibs-speak for “he showed me what I needed to see.”
As for Payton/Quickley, I’m as excited about Quickley’s potential emergence as the next guy but we could all stand to pump the brakes a tad. It’s not hard to envision a scenario in which Quickley gets all the minutes he can handle based on 2 preseason games against a glorified G-League squad and the shine comes off real quick(ley). Payton seems like the boring but safe choice here. Quickley will have plenty of time to earn the job–the competition ain’t exactly murderer’s row.
Having said that, I don’t think Quickley would be the wrong choice and I’ll defer to the coaching staff if they think he’s ready. I’m just saying there are potential pitfalls that might not be outweighed by the benefits, and my guess is the coaching staff will agree.
Without seeing practice, we can’t know how Quickley has looked day in and day out. If he has looked better than Payton in practice all along, then I think he’ll start despite the inexperience. If he has been rough around the edges and we just happened to see him at his best, then Payton will start and we’ll eventually move towards Quickley later.
Robinson and Noel is a tougher call. Robinson is going to do the “block and dunk” parts of the game better but Noel is going to do the non boxscore things a little better. I’d probably start Robinson, but I can see starting Noel for a short period of time. If you start Robinson and he starts getting into foul trouble against good centers and making other mistakes on defense, it’s tougher to demote him and then promote him back later than it is to just wait until you think he’s actually ready and hand the keys over permanently.
I too voted with my heart. For me, it’s about the kids all the way. The only hope for the team is that what we saw the other night, blossoms. In my delusional world, IQ, RJ, KK, Obi & Mitch would start.
Truth – we need both Quickly and Robinson to prove they are legit starters and I need to see them against real lineups.
To be honest, I’m more interested in seeing what happens with Burks, Rivers, Randle, Noel, Bullock and our cap space and excess picks longer term. This year we’ve more or less done what I’ve been asking for all along which is to continue building via draft, but add veterans selectively if they make the team better and have contracts that can be traded. We may add another before it’s over.
Other than Randle (whose salary was a Mills/Perry special), we have players that may be of interest to other teams that are on “good” contracts. So we are finally in a position to trade UP by packaging certain players and assets (potentially even including one of the young players). Maybe we still don’t have the assets to get a #1 option star, but we have pieces that can be rolled up to get better if the opportunity arises. If it doesn’t happen this year, maybe the team will show enough to finally register some interest among the better free agents. You have to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run. This is the year to try to at least start walking so some of the runners want to join the party.
Tim McMahon:
2021 FA class keeps shrinking. And I guess Rudy and Donovan made up?
Voted Quickley and Mitch. With my heart, but also what i think should be done, because if you have 4 preseason games to see what lineup works best for you, and then some player does outstandingly well… doesn’t make sense to not give him the nod, imo.
EP knows he’s here to help the kids, and with luck (for him and for the team) to be traded to a much better team at the deadline. I think he’ll do his part well, and right now his part is to be the backup for IQ. As simple as that.
Re: Randle, i think he looked very good in the 2nd Cavs game. He’s trying to let go the spinning, and the high TOs, worked with a lot of patience to get his assists, i liked his game a lot. And yes, as some of you guys said, he can be the playmaking-big that Thibs likes so much, so for now it’s better for all involved that he plays, even for Obi as he seems like the type of rookie that will need some time to adjust.
Mitch has to play, the first game was bad (a little rusty, probably) but then he improved with each game. Noel is nowhere at Mitch’s level. He’s a good backup (probably the perfect one), but that’s it.
And to finish the limeup, RJ and Burks, please. Let Knox try to emulate that level of shooting from the bench, and if he can sustain good shooting, he’ll have his chance to start (spoiler alert, he won’t).
Even though it was against the Cavs, Quickley showed some indisputable things that give me less pause than I might normally have.
1) he can shoot
2) he makes NBA-level reads on both ends
3) he’s in top condition
4) he has a great motor, plays hard 94 feet
5) he”s got enough length and athleticism to survive
6) his teammates seem to play better when he’s out there
7) no fans probably helps
As I said, I wouldn’t start him, but if Thibs goes that way, cool!
Free agency getting smaller and smaller around the time where we have a surplus of draft assets so we have to build through the draft? Music to my ears, fellas.
It also means the path to MitchRob being a long termer just got clearer. The only guys I saw the Knicks’ passing on Mitch for were Gobert and Mobley with Noel having a smaller chance of doing. With no Gobert there, I think things get a lot clearer for us.
I subscribe to this, if Thibs doesn’t start him, i’ll understand. The minutes he plays is much more important than if he starts or not.
And about your list, there’s one thing i’ve noticed he does that i don’t remember a Knicks PG doing, and that’s when the other players don’t do what he wants (eg, Mitch and the PnR), he gestures to direct them to do what he wants to do. It’s hilarious, in a good way this time! 😀
As for who will start..it will be Payton and Mitch..should probably be Quickley and Mitch though. We need spacing more than a probing PG who can’t shoot. Between Quickley, Burks, RJ, and even Randle- we would have enough playmaking out there. Payton can QB the second unit until Rivers is back and in the groove. If you wanna start the game setting the tone, you start Quickley because of how he opens the floor for everyone else. I don’t care if he’s a rookie. You don’t have to play him the lion’s share of the minutes, just set the tone with him and let Payton get the second unit going. Obi’s gonna be the only scorer on that unit until Rivers is back.
Thibs has not disappointed. It’s ideal for him to have a roster with no primadonnas. He’s a rare coach who has no egos to massage, You play his way or you sit, nothing is guaranteed. Whatever the concerns were about his offense, it seems that his “The game will tell you the right play” approach is working. The ball is moving. Guys are going to their strengths. Transition game is an area of emphasis. Defense is an emphasis. Players are embracing their roles. Communication on the floor seems good.
I am really liking what I’m seeing out of him.
Co-signed! It’s not much in comparison to many other teams, but from where our team is trying to grow from- this is huge. Now we just need not be impatient and blow the cap with the wrong move because of a “big name”.
Give it 10-15 games for the dust to settle..hopefully IQ shows over that time he can handle the duties and Elf fades into knick obscurity…based on the small sample size IQ appears to have the tools but sometimes preseason is fools gold (circa Kevin Knox)…I see Mitch being the starter from here on out…for him to be out on the court and not get a foul was huge and overlooked…if he can improve on that alone it will make him so much better….as mentioned above…Noel is perfect backup but that is what he is… a backup..
With Gobert out, and with PG13 signing the supermax extension when he reached 10y experience, probably Kawhi will do the same (he only reaches 10y next summer). Even if Kawhi reaches FA, we’d only had a chance if there’d be a lot of high-profile FAs, and that’s no longer the case.
And by the way, except Kawhi, is there any superstar left in the 2021 FA? And good players? Lowry (too old, but nice if at a good price), Oladipo (is he good?), anybody else?
I think it’s better to stay on our path, and build through the draft, that’s why it’s important to not win meaningless games. Keep Frank, DSJ and Knox to play a lot of time, if we need to keep the course to a 24-48 season (this record should place us in the last 5, with good chances to get a top3 pick).
agree..so far so good on Thibs but once the L’s start to pile up..that will be the test…do the guys tune out the screaming maniac on the sideline if the results aren’t good.. when Philly was in their tank mode…everyone commented on how hard they played for Brown even though they sucked…might be similar this year for Thibs…
I’m just glad he is not a rigid offensive systems coach like D’Antoni. It seems that the non-negotiables are to play hard and smart on both ends, have each other’s backs, move the ball, run in transition, take what the defense gives you, move without the ball, force low% shots, work for and take high% shots, get over screens, hedge hard…you know, very basic, timeless principles. What Larry Brown would sum up as “Play the right way.” Has anyone read anything beyond what I described into his offensive and defensive schemes?
One other thing about Quickley. He’s probably got the attention of the other PG candidates in this open competition environment. That might light a fire under them to either up their games or sit.
This is my main concern, and that’s why it would be better to talk about getting better and not talking about making the playoffs (538 gave us 5% probability).
And this is not helping: https://twitter.com/TheCrossover/status/1340137258532290561
Will Dolan have patience with the Nets looking great?
I guess it’s time for people to make win predictions for the season. What does everyone think, how many wins will the Knicks have this season?
I think we should start IQ. That said, I think we’re in for a rude awakening when we see the difference on offense and defense between Brogdon and Garland. Even a regular season, fully healthy Cavs rotation is pretty much crap. Good news is we blew that crap out, which is what you need to do.
If IQ starts, expect Brogdon to attack him mercilessly. It’ll be a really good test to see what we have in IQ.
Even if he can’t do anything else, shooting and dumping the ball off to Burks or Randle makes him our best choice to play alongside our other starters.
Mitch and Payton.
Mitch is a no brainer. Starting Quickly otoh is bad process, since he hasn’t shown anything against the big leagues yet (preseason doesn’t count). Give him 10-15 minutes and let him prove he deserves more.
Quickley probably goes against Payton in practice. He’s not Brogdan, but he’s big, athletic and crafty…i.e. a legit NBA PG. In fact, I would guess that in scrimmages Thibs runs Noel/Randle/RJ/Burks/Payton vs. Quickley/Bullock/Knox/Obi/Mitch quite a bit, maybe switching Noel/Mitch, Burks/Bullock/RJ, Obi/Randle. The bottom line is he’s scrimmaging against better comp than he faced in CLE. If Thibs starts him, it will be because of that.
The Suns waived Johnathan Motley, he’s a PF at 6’8” and with a massive 7’3.5’’ wingspan, i think he’d be a better option than Spellman. He played very little in the NBA (373 mins), but a lot in the G-League (2887 mins).
2019-20 G-League avgs: 24 PPG, 8.1 RPG, 3.2 APG, 1 BPG, .517 FG%, .344 3P%, .753 FT%, 26 GP, 26 GS, 33 MPG.
For now is the only one that caught my eye, as i don’t like Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (not a big, we don’t need wings) and Frank Kaminsky (he’s 27 already) but they’re also on the waiver wire.
Oh, and by the way it was refreshing to see that Quickley is a good pick and MKG got cut. As of now, the CAA/Kentucky conspiracy theory doesn’t seem to be a thing anymore.
I actually said it earlier, the star of this team is Thibs and the coaching staff. They have a tough job, not just coaching the players, but managing the pressure from the media, fans and Dolan. While lots of us here are eager to see more about Quickly and none of us are pushing for him to be voted as a starter on the allstar team, there are fans ready to put him into the HOF.
I said the following in the game 2 thread:
I haven’t swayed much from that opinion, which wasn’t mine, but what I thought would happen.
I think Thibs goes this way based on the current roster:
Starters: Payton, RJ, Burks, Randle, Noel
Rotation: IQ, Bullock, Knox, Obi, Mitch
Deep Bench: Rivers, DS Jr, Frank, Iggy, Spellman
Rivers will be the first to push himself into the rotation.
What do I want?
Starters: IQ, RJ, Knox, Obi, Mitch
Rotation: Payton, Bullock, Burks, Randle, Noel
Deep Bench: Rivers, DS Jr, Frank, Iggy, Spellman
I like the starters to be all the kids, playing with their hair on fire. That looked like fun. This gets them used to playing with each other against the NBA’s best. IQ seems to bring out the best in the kids.
The B-team also makes sense with Payton having two 3-and-D wings to create space for Randle with a polished center.
As for the deep bench, it’s unbalanced. The Knicks need a third real center. Spellman looked awful and I didn’t see enough of his game play to talk about his game. This is all about his gut looking a lot like mine.
I like the opposite…a bench unit that comes in and provides a spark. That Quickley Quintet unit seems perfect for an energy second unit.
That is a lot of money for Rudy Robert
RHJ, Kaminsky, TJ Leaf, Motley…those aren’t bad flyer candidates on minimum deals. I expect there will be some good value out there this year…before, at, even after the trading deadline. We certainly don’t need all of Rivers, Bullock, Payton, Burks, Spellman or Iggy.
Putting Quickley and Knox in the rotation .. .for how long? Knox was one of the worst players in the NBA over the last two seasons. Quickley was pretty good in 2 pre-season games. Sure, run them out there, I don’t care (and I want to see how Quickley does) but I wouldn’t get stressed if Knox or Frank or Quickley or whoever doesn’t play much the first week or two this season. We’re probably not playing set rotations this years.
Frank: agreed
Knox: agreed
Quickley: whuuuuut?
(oh that explains it, you’ve been drinking, right?)
My guess is that Thibs goes with Payton and Noel to start to keep Mitch out of early foul trouble and let’s IQ work against the opponent’s bench. It’s important to build their confidence at this point.
Preseason against two teams that are arguably worse than the Knicks is not a good indicator of where the Knicks end up. But I think 20 games is optimistic. I’ll say 17 wins.
I’ll go with that if they play together and play more minutes than the vets. Minutes is why I have them starting.
I hate this “not having basketball every night” thing. They should expand the roster to 25 and have teams run out different squads on alternating nights
Payton over Quickley to start the season as it’s a rookie with 1.5 good pre-season games. Give IQ 20-25 minutes a game though, build his confidence against the B-squads of other teams, maybe even have him finish games if they’re close and he’s playing well. Let him earn the starter position over the first few weeks of the season.
Burks as starting wing with RJ. You need reliable shooting (I’m not yet convinced Knox is that) especially with that group or you end up behind by double digits come the end of the first quarter. Maybe that’s stealth tanking, but it’ll be tooth gnashing to watch every game and soul-sucking to have the kids consistently trying to dig the team out of very deep holes.
i don’t think even during the linsanity era we overreacted this much to 2 games….. what happened?
I think it’s an aversion to having to watch payton shoot a jump shot…its very painful…
i mean we went through this last year with frank and payton also…. i have no idea what the point is talking about this… if quickley is better than payton he’ll get his opportunities this year…. what is the rush?
Went to re-read the thread of Linsanity’s first game… be amused…
Before the game ended:
“Lin is getting MVP chants, lol!”
“Im picking up Lin for my fantasy team right now”
“Lin should start from now on”
“Was just going to say the same thing… in utter seriousness. The offense is 8000 times better w him in there”
After the game:
“Jeremy Lin is trending #2 worldwide!! lol”
“this game was really special and I hope it’s just the beginning for Lin”
“with Lin looking like a real answer to their ball movement problems”
“To those who think that our problem is Melo Amare or anything other than piss-poor guard play, I give you Jeremy Lin”
…and less than an hour from the end of the game, Robert Silverman said “Linsanity!”. How awesome, right? KB is a place for visionaries!
Overreacting to 1 or 2 great games is a big part of what we do here! ;D
I went with Payton and Mitch. It was exciting to watch Quickley play so well, but Cleveland is pretty bad. I would have him real early in the rotation, though, maybe even first off the bench right from the start of the regular season.
I still hope that Quicksanity is real, though.
Is there anything in particular that you think is over the top? I mean, no one is crowning Quickley as our PG of the next 10 years. We’re discussing starting lineups and minutes in the days before opening night. What do you find weird about that? I don’t think anyone has been over the top, and Thibs has suggested that he’s having the same debate in his head. Is it possible that you are seeing something that isn’t there?
When a starving man receives a crumb he’ll pronounce it a feast
And honestly, just the fact that whether to start Quickley or Payton is a legitimate question is something for Knicks fans to get excited about and to talk about. That’s all you can ask for from a #25 pick at this point…he is forcing the conversation. Quickley could have gone out there and put up a 1-15 with 2 assists and 6 TOs and a =/- of -50. If he did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. That he got an early opportunity and became the talk of the town is a fun development for anyone but the most cynical fan. Comparing it to Frank or Payton or DSjr or anyone else is silly, since they had already established themselves as deeply flawed players. Quickley hasn’t. The kid played great so far compared to expectations (especially yours) and deserves to be talked about.
I wouldn’t compare it to Linsanity. If anything it reminds me more of David Lee, Nate Robinson, and Landry Fields. Shump is another good example. There was tons of excitement early on about them.
There is no harm in waiting to start Quickley but there is also no harm in just starting him. We are not trying to make the playoffs this year so if he plays bad and we lose no harm. I am not too worried about his confidence and I think Thibs runs a tight enough ship to ensure he won’t play the wrong way and lock in bad habits so really there is no downside to starting him.
Having shooting from the 1 opens up the offense so much, it’s not about him being better than Payton it’s about him being a better fit with RJ and Randle. I say take the swing and if he struggles move him back to the bench in a couple weeks or a month. So far in both college and preseason, Quickley has only responded positively to pressure and has gotten better every time more has been put on his shoulders.
All I know is I could watch this all day. Maybe it’s a mirage, but it looks fast and smart to me. Those are two skills I haven’t seen in a point guard (on the Knicks) since I don’t know when.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkk8ebCkJdk
Via Macri, this is not really news, but still nice to see Thibs is seeing what we are (and more) from RJ:
that we’re even discussing this… this is pretty unprecedented that someone has shown so little yet we’ve been clamoring so much for this person to start… since…
well frank….
btw… have we collectively thrown frank in the garbage yet because of quickley? seems pretty coincidental….
Even the most ardent Frank-o-philes like myself had come to terms with the idea that he’s not a point guard, but at best a Swiss Army knife switchable wing type. Who also has perpetual nagging injuries. So he’s not really in contention to start at the 1, nor is he good enough at shooting to start over RJ, Burks, or Bullock, given the needs of the starting unit. Frank’s not forgotten; he’s just moved on.
I like preseason RJ more than Duke RJ (granted I didn’t watch every game and mostly watched highlights). Duke RJ seemed to force a lot of stuff and seemingly needed the ball in his hands to score. It’s part of why I didn’t want him. Preseason RJ rarely drove the ball unless there was an open lane or the defense was off balance. He’s gotten to a 25% USG mostly by being aggressive on the fast break and finding holes in the defense to make cuts.
FWIW, I still think his drives against a set defense are really ugly, he’s just a little too slow on the first step. In preseason he made the right reads and passes out of it, but the passes seem a little more off target than you’d like, maybe good enough to cause the defense to scramble but not quite hitting shooters in the pocket. It’s a skill he can keep working on, but it’s not quite time to kick Randle to the curb as the primary initiator.
PS. Here’s the preseasons stats from RealGM in case anyone wants to look. I hate their navigation and interface, but ESPN doesn’t have preseason stats anywhere I’ve looked
It’s not like Quickley is unseating a long-term starter or a core part of our team. Payton is a one-year rental there to provide stability, him losing his starting job is the best thing that could happen for the Knicks. Many rookies start right off the bat. Both Barrett and Knox started right out of the gate and they showed less steady play than Quickley in their first preseason. Yes, our preseason was short but Quickley was the best PG in half of our preseason games. He didn’t play or barely played in the other two. It doesn’t seem that outlandish.
As for Frank, I hope he is in the rotation. I think he should be the back up 2 guard, maybe even playing with Rivers sharing in the PG duties.
I was just starting to like Frank last year. He stayed relatively healthy and started hitting some shots, nearly finished at .500 TS%!! (I know not an accomplishment, but soooo much better than previous years). And sure maybe that will turn into a fluke, he hit an insane amount of midrange shots (re: Brandon Clarke, he actually has the same issue where he hit over 50% of shots from 3-16ft, if you want to poke holes in Clarke that’s where you start, not throwing out low USG comps).
Anyways, Frank is probably out of the rotation but I’d like to see him get some run so we can evaluate where his 3pt shooting is at. Thibs probably uses him as a defensive specialist when Knox, Burks, RJ, or whomever is getting torched.
Also his rookie contract extension deadline is tomorrow (?!) I believe.
Also, Spellman has another year on his rookie contract if we want to exercise his option. So even if he’s overweight now, he may be worth keeping and see if he can work back into playing shape for next year. Feel bad for him, quarantine was probably tough for a number of athletes struggling with weight.
He’s shown little in terms of volume/sample size. But like Lin early, the way he has played is eye-popping in its fluidity, pace and intelligence. Nothing about it seemed flukey. He’s earned high praise from Thibs, hardly the effusive about rookies type. When a head coach of his stature seems to be on the bandwagon, yeah, there’s reason to be excited and to talk about it. This isn’t fanbois stuff.
We shouldn’t forget that Quickley stock was rising last Feb-March, he had 9 months to work on his game, and we’ve never really seen him play point guard before.
i’m just wondering where all the ppl who thought frank should start are….. and how much of an overlap we have with the quickley qrew….
should we be judging anything on preseason games? like we keep saying that preseason doesn’t count for anything but none of this is really congruent with that….
I’ll be very surprised if either Frank or Smith Jr. gets his option picked up given the cap holds involved. Heck, I thought Knox might even have been a casualty of the Knicks 2021 dreams before the last two games.
wow quite the proclamation….. let’s see how many of these hot takes age over the course of the season…
The Knicks haven’t played since March and have a new coach and a bunch of new players and young guys who have worked out privately for 8-9 months. There is literally nothing else to go on but preseason and practice. That doesn’t mean that you can make any long-term judgments based on preseason. But for the present, that’s all we got. Last season is ancient history.
Yes, let’s do see! That’s the fun of being a fan…especially a Knicks fan.
Macri:
Team net rating so far. Usual small sample size caveats of course apply.
and yes…
this qualifies
With all the necessary eye-test caveats (and I definitely have not watched every minute of every OK State game) I’ve honestly yet to come away super impressed with Cade. Greg Brown has stood out more in this game.
It’s not a Wiggins situation to be clear, he can clearly do a lot of different things. It’s more similar to how I felt about Fultz–the case for #1 overall never really went away but I also was never convinced.
Still plenty of time for Cade, obviously.
I voted Payton/Noel because, at the end of the day, we’re still the Knicks. Hopefully it’ll be Mitch and Quickley at some point.
I’m definitely not a Frank fan and think that a realistic best-case result for him at this point is as like a 9th man on a good team; someone who might play late in close games as a defensive replacement but that’s about it. And I’ve never really been a Frank fan, he’s shown basically nothing since we drafted him. I am excited by Quickley. It’s only a couple of preseason games and he might totally flame out in the regular season but it’s not like there’s anyone on the roster who projects to be a longterm solution at PG for us so why not IQ?
At the end of the day, your priors on Quickley and the point guard situation in general shouldn’t have changed that much from two weeks ago. The only things we’ve learned for sure are Elfrid Payton did not learn to shoot a basketball, DSJ is a tad more spry than he looked last year, and Quickley at a minimum will not suffer from a lack of confidence. None of those things really tell us much.
Quickley should definitely be in the rotation, but he’d have been in my ideal rotation regardless of his preseason performance because we should be seeing what we have in our young players generally speaking.
we had this same argument for all of last year with payton and frank…. and we were obviously better off with payton at pg or things would’ve been even more dysfunctional…. and we somehow someway still found out exactly what we needed to find out about everyone involved …
starting doesn’t actually matter either way so i’m not sure why ppl are so caught up in who is annointed these titles…. he’ll get minutes just like everyone else… ppl haven’t even made this big of a deal with mitch and he has so much of a better case than anyone else on this team for years….
Quickley has caught Tommy Beer’s attention…
Okay Djphan, let’s look at it:
“Is there anything in particular that you think is over the top?
this qualifies
But like Lin early, the way he has played is eye-popping in its fluidity, pace and intelligence. Nothing about it seemed flukey.”
So let’s break it down.
“But like Lin early” — not hyperbole, in fact pretty accurate. Doesn’t mean he’ll explode like Lin (who has washed out of the league by the way), just that Lin was impressive early, as has been Quickley. You can certainly argue that they’re not equivalent, but they are similar.
“The way he has played is eye-popping in its fluidity, pace and intelligence.” Again, fairly accurate. You may quibble as to HOW fluid, pace-y, and intelligent it’s been, but go back and look at those highlights. I think the terms are completely valid. I’m not sure my eyes popped, but I had a grin on my face.
“Nothing about it seems flukey.” Arguably a hot take, given the sample size. But as Z-Man says, this is what being a fan is — take a position. You seem adamant that it’s a fluke, which again given the sample size is just as stupid a take as the one you’re deriding. So there’s that.
um, some of us have consistently said since before draft time that Frank isn’t and will never be a quality NBA PG…
Frank will never, ever, not in his entire career, no matter where he plays, look like a quality PG. He is not that player. He will never be that player.
The evidence that it was “eye-popping” is that it’s being talked about in Forbes. I’m not making this shit up. From the article I just posted:
“His final preseason numbers are undeniably impressive. Thanks in large part to the blowout victory over a bad Cavs team, IQ’s advanced metrics are downright ridiculous. Quickley led all Knicks in plus/minus during the preseason with a plus-62 (R.J. Barrett ranked second at plus-57).
In the 62 total minutes Quickley was on the floor this preseason, the Knicks scored a whopping 132.8 points per 100 possessions and allowed just 83.2 points per 100 possessions. Quickley’s Net Rating of plus 49.6 was the highest among all NBA players who logged at least 30 minutes this preseason.”.
That’s not eye-popping? If not, then I don’t know what is.
I don’t see where anyone is “making a big deal” out of anything other than one of our 1st round picks appears to be a good player and compared to our journeyman can’t shoot worth shit “starting pg” would appear to be a viable option…I know it doesn’t jibe with your “bad process” draft hypothesis …but appears that your are trying too hard to throw cold water on this guy…ease up…
Are you quoting me from the day after we drafted him?
Z-Man, I was about to copy that last paragraph myself until I saw you’d done it, as it did indeed make my eyes pop. Also I was thinking it might cause Djphan’s head to explode.
how is waiting more than 2 preseason games before annointing someone as starter throwing cold water?
i kind of think i’m the only one being rational here…. this is pretty stupifying….
what have i said was totally out of bounds?
Yes, because you are considering a case for possibly starting Quickley over a mediocre 1-year rental in game 1 to mean the same thing as “anointing him as a starter.” No one is doing that, is it that hard for you to see that? Are you even serious when you say something like “I think I am the only one being rational here…” and don’t get how unnecessarily dismissive and condescending that comes across?
As I pointed out, even Thibs hasn’t decided on a starter yet, at least according to his public statements. I guess he’s not being rational either.
Quickley is a way better looking prospect than I anticipated. He just has good feel for the game, makes good passes without thinking about it too much. Combine that with the wet jumper and the defensive potential, and he’s an intriguing prospect.
It’s also reasonable not to get TOO fired up over a couple of gaudy stat lines in exhibition games against a bad team. IQ certainly belongs in the mix and will get his minutes, but there should not be a collective freakout if Elf starts for a while. If Quickley is the better player he’ll get his chance.
I haven’t really cared much about actual Knicks games in a while but my interest is piqued for this season.
Quickley was one of the best high school point guards and became an exceptional 2 guard at Kentucky. His game has elements of Isiah Thomas. Start him and don’t look back.
What’s curious is that you seem to be a lot more invested in noting the improvements that RJ has shown in preseason than you are in buying into what Quickley has shown. Why is that? Never mind, the reason is obvious.
Now THAT’S a hot take!
Woj:
Great prospects often look like a coiled spring out there but Cade has more of a wet noodle dynamic.
But he seems like he can really shoot.
Comping IQ to IT is not a way to get me on the bandwagon.
I am excited to watch him but I have a feeling this is a sell high moment – although one of the lessons of 2020 has been there is no such thing in the stock market.
maybe because rj has a lot more higher upside than quickley will ever have and is much more important to the future of this franchise?
like what is this question? come on guys…. do i have to be biased to not buy in over 2 preseason games?
am i taking crazy pills or has everyone collectively lost their minds over this?
We have been squinting so long to see talent from the untalented that when it finally arrives there is a collective shrug. I’ll take the ridicule if Quickly is Nate Robinson redux.
i mean quickley’s done it for 2 preseason games yet rj was doin it for all 4… and yea he was a lot more impressive doin it…
but i guess that’s too biased to make it noteworthy….
DJ, the wagon’s almost full and we’re leaving the station soon. Better hurry up!
Or maybe RJ’s tiny sample of hot FT shooting will revert back to his shitty FT shooting history, maybe he never develops a 3, maybe he never improves his right hand, and maybe he becomes an overpaid “upside” albatross on a rookie deal max extension, while maybe Quickley continues to make doubters look like idiots and maybe becomes the Knicks starting PG for the next decade. Of course, that’s impossible because you say it is.
You seem to be the only one speaking with a lot of confidence in his convictions, I’ll give you that.
It’s a really nice stat, but just noting that “being talked about in Forbes” doesn’t really mean anything these days, since Forbes has a blog system similar to the old Huffington Post where pretty much anyone can post there. The stat itself is good, don’t get me wrong, so it’s very nice to see. Just noting the Forbes thing because it annoys me that they’ve punted on their respectability when it comes to their blogs. I’ve seen some crazy stupid stuff posted on Forbes blogs and I just shake my head at who came up with the idea of just putting the Forbes brand on a bunch of unsupervised blog posts. I have no beef with Tommy in particular (I’ve also read a number of really good Forbes blog posts), just with the system overall.
The Knicks are a crappy team. They are going to lose a ton of games. Elfrid Payton and DSJ aren’t long term answers. Quickley probably isn’t either but he played better than either of those two in the preseason. No one needs to take crazy pills to think rolling Quickley out there with the starters might be worth trying. Myself, I’d wait at least a few games and see him against some real NBA defense but you’re taking crazy pills if you’re genuinely upset about the Knicks giving Quickley a shot to start. Unless you think you could ruin his confidence I can’t see what the issue is. Start him, worst case scenario he absolutely flops, the Knicks lose some games they’d probably lose anyway and you throw his minutes to DSJ or Frank and see if they can save their careers. Honestly I can’t see why you think it’s a big deal.
Quickley’s “priors” all got cut off because of COVID. He was on a massive upswing by all indications and then missed the stage of the tournament, the post-season draft combines (Portsmouth, etc.), and then all in-person workouts. There’s likely no way he would have lasted until 25 if he’d had these things and if he’d lit up summer league as he almost certainly would have done and *then* had these two preseason games, there would be no hesitation anywhere to think of him as an opening night starter.
In other words, if there had been a full set of typical priors, the Knicks never would have gotten him. The luck finally bounced their way.
So the 87% FT shooting is real and the 71% 2pt% against 2 of the scrubbiest teams in preseason is real but we should ignore the 12.5% 3-pt shooting because it’s a small sample size and preseason doesn’t count? And what’s “he was a lot more impressive doing it” supposed to mean?
Forbes aside, he’s certainly being talked about beyond what you would expect from a projected mid-late second rounder that a perennial laughingstock team inexplicably reached for at #25. Just getting noticed is a pretty big deal for even a “good” #25 pick. And it’s not like his shooting is the reason for it. He only shot well in game 4.
The thing is, who cares about what any of us or pundits think? The kid had a great preseason and Thibs himself is clearly very impressed with him. Why piss on him in this moment? There’s no need for it. No one is calling him anything but an intriguing rookie who has thus far exceeded expectations and gives us something to be excited about.
Speaking of which, remember the Brandon Jennings hype….and the outcry in Knicksland when he had that 50-pt game? Talk about a flash in the pan!
Djphan, I think we can allow to be more than a little impressed while not getting completely carried away.
I’m OK if they start Payton to start the season. Forgive the cliche, but cream rises to the top. If Quickley continues to produce and show what he’s shown, Thibs will have no logical choice but to eventually start him. And although an Isaiah Thomas outcome is still a very talented guy for late-1st rd talent, Thomas is 5′ 9″, not 6′ 3″ with a 6′ 8″ wingspan who can play some D.
Honestly, the very first floater he shot in Detroit that got waved off for “traveling” made him look like an NBA player, and I said kind of the same thing on the board when he hit the one early last game. Forget the draft position and just watch the guy play. That’s an NBA point guard. He’s heads and shoulders above Elf, DSJ, and Frank.
In other news, taking a page from the Knicks playbook and last year’s Giants in the Chase Young draft, the Jets beat the Rams and possibly lose out on Trevor Lawrence.
I think he meant the other one…, you know, the ex-GM of the Knicks…which is slightly hyperbolic at this point. Slightly. Unless maybe he meant that Quickley will some day be a similarly bad Knicks GM?
I don’t really understand what you guys think I’m saying…. if he doesn’t start it’s not the worst thing in the world and having two good preseason games doesn’t mean much… I don’t want even using any sort of strong language for rj either…. the free throws look good and I think it portends good things.. I’ve caveated basically everything else….
there’s no cold water being thrown on quickly…. it’s not a crime against humanity to say that he doesn’t deserve to start….. it doesn’t take anything away from what he’s already done other than you shouldn’t draw firm conclusions from it….
but that’s exactly what people are doing…. it’s happening all over this thread…. and I’m telling you guys are crazy….
I’m being perfectly reasonable here and not really saying anything controversial and yet so many are taking this so personally…
get over yourself please….
Trevor Lawrence will someday be named greatest Jaguar of all time.
it sucks being a jets fan
Check on your Jets fan friends today. We are not okay.
Depression set in before the half as the Jets mounted an insurmountable lead.
Being a fan and hoping the team does well, and finding a rooting interest in players is mutually exclusive from “rational” analysis. Fan is short for fanatic. We know what elf/dj/frank/austin are. we’re not sure what IQ is, and we just saw him blow past his perceived ceiling with one pre-season performance. I get it. But I hope for the best.
It’s like buying a lotto ticket. The odds are astronomically against, but you still daydream about all the things you might do with limitless discretionary cash. It more fun to root for IQ to succeed, to author a rags to riches story than it is to think he was overdrafted and destined to be the next nobody. What’s the fun in that?
But that’s not what you said. Here are your exact words:
“i don’t think even during the linsanity era we overreacted this much to 2 games….. what happened?”
and
“[it’s over the top] that we’re even discussing this…”
and then continuing to be dismissive anyone who even thinks that whether he should start game 1 is a valid question to be discussed. Seems like there are some pretty smart posters who feel it’s a fine question for discussion.
And you say provocative (I’m really trying hard to pick non-abusive words) things like:
“i kind of think i’m the only one being rational here…. this is pretty stupifying….am i taking crazy pills or has everyone collectively lost their minds over this?”
Honestly, I don’t get why you even weighed in beyond you just wanted to be provocative.
By the way, not since Jeremy Lin, have I witnessed a player becoming anointed savior as quickly as Quickly.
If Quinnen Williams doesn’t come out of the game, this one wouldn’t have even been close. I can’t even be mad at the Jets as much as I’m pissed with Sean McVay and the Rams. Sam Darnold can’t get out of bed in the morning without turning the ball over and your top tier defense can’t get a fumble recovery or an interception? The Rams are a real group of pretenders.
it’s ok to be irrational…. this isn’t science…. but you kind of have to be real with yourself when you’re being unreasonable…. this is the sort of problem we had with the frank fans… and apparently nobody learned anything from that experience from being so sure of the thinslices in limited playing time that they fell in love with the idea of frank instead of what he was…. we had them villainizing others for asking them to pump the brakes… and flat out sayng we had no idea what we’re talking about… we didn’t know anythig about basketball!
and we’re kind of on our way there with quickley…. is it too hard to ask to have him prove this in the regular season in rotation minutes first before even thinking about giving him the starting job? you can disagree with that take… but in no world is that unreasonable… and i find alot of symmetry between that and the frank experience to my liking to not call this out…..
i didn’t even slam his performance or take anythig away from what he’s achieved in 55 minutes of play so i have no idea what ppl think i’m saying to get this aggressive towards me….
Football teams being almost universally too stupid to tank is pretty wild. Why the Jets weren’t playing some rookie QB with almost no chance to win is beyond me.
Ok. Maybe the Quickley – Isaiah comparison is a little premature. I’ll be happy with Otis Birdsong with a better Free Throw percentage.
And no one bore the brunt of that more than I did.
But this is totally different.
1) People lobbied hard to pick Frank at #8 and wouldn’t let go until it became apparent that they were dead wrong about him. No one even brought up drafting Quickley at #25 (or #33 or #39 for that matter.) No one has any sort of visceral attachment to him (except maybe you?)
2) No one (well no one to be taken seriously) is making any grand predictions about Quickley. This entire discussion is about Game 1 of the regular season. That’s it. You keep saying things like “he’s being annointed the starting PG” when literally no one is doing that.
What’s essentially being said by some people (not me) is “Hey, he looked pretty good in preseason and out other PGs suck, so let’s throw him out there to start game 1 and see what happens.” Literally nothing beyond that, Nada. Yet you are making the snarkiest, condescending comments and calling people irrational. You are actually overracting to an overreaction that doesn’t exist. Can you really not see that?
The wild thing is that I don’t even think Quickley should start! I actually agree with you! But it’s a perfectly reasonable opinion to think that he should start if Thibs thinks he deserves to start. What’s the worst than can happen? We lose 60 games instead of 50?
It’s a fun discussion for most of us. Sorry it’s beneath you, o rational one.
Another punch in the stomach for Jets fans. Was a guy named Ndour involved?
Thing is, the Jets are poised to get better fast. They still have the resources to take a giant leap forward. Sam is the unfortunate question.
Our Pro Bowl punter made the game winning tackle. You can’t make this shit up. I really hope Minshew Magic saves the Jets from themselves in the next two weeks.
Asking the right questions lead you to the truth and get you out of indecisiveness quickly.
Do i trust Elf ?
Is IQ Nba ready?
Is it a crime to lose in Indiana?
Who would i like to watch on premier?
Is it ethical to start a rookie over veterans?
Which pg will give me the best chance to win?
Shall i go to pee while Elf is the pg or IQ ?
Also, on a more Knicks related note, did anyone see Berman’s article about how the Knicks “new vision for RJ Barrett” involves moving him from shooting guard to small forward? I love that they have him working with Johnnie Bryant, but anybody with a functioning brain could have told you RJ Barrett was a small forward. David Fizdale should be banned from coaching for developmental malpractice.
Is there a tiebreaker for the #1 pick? Coin flip?
You don’t have to sell me on that. Joe Douglas drafted at least 2 long term starters in Becton and Mann with the early returns on Davis, Mims, and Hall being promising. It’s also worth noting that Philly has kind of imploded since he left, so I am 100% certain the Jets are in good hands. Sam Darnold has a chance to play us out of the top 2 these next two weeks and if he can’t do that he’s gone.
I just really, for once in my lifetime, would like to have a franchise changing talent play for my team. The Jets would of course play themselves out of the driver’s seat for Trevor Lawrence the day after he made Notre Dame look like a high school football team. This is a really hard pill to swallow.
Just I be clear. I AM announcing him the chosen one, think he should start and think he’s going to be the steal of the draft and we’re experiencing a moment right now that we will look back on in a few years as the result moment when our fortunes changed. That doesn’t mean I think he’s gonna be our best player once we’re a good team but I think he’s gonna be that diamond in the rough that changed our luck and I think he’s gonna be a starter for us.
His name is Immanuel fucking Quickley.
Strength of schedule is the tiebreaker and JAX’s SOS is .547 to NYJ’s .602. Equal records, but the Jags lost to worse teams than the Jets did so they are in position to pick 1st. If we finish with the same record, we lose out on Trevor Lawrence and I’m not confident the Jags will another game. And even if they somehow beat Chicago or Indianapolis, we have New England in week 17 and they just got eliminated from the playoffs. If there’s one thing I’m sure about, it’s that in a scenario where a loss to New England secures our chance to draft Trevor Lawrence, Bill Bellichick will throw that game as an elite level f*** you to the Jets organization.
There’s one pretty big difference between this and the Frank stuff. The Frankophiles enthusiasm is based on what they want Frank to be and ignores what he actually does on the court which is nothing. We’re excited about Quickley based on his actual on court performance. Admittedly, the performance was two preseason games against one of the worst teams in the league but it’s still based on something that actually happened on a court.
And I think if Quickley is as bad as Frank most of us aren’t going to keep pounding the table for him.
“1) People lobbied hard to pick Frank at #8 and wouldn’t let go until it became apparent that they were dead wrong about him.”
Were people excited about him?
It’s going to be long a few days before IQ’s destiny is fully revealed.
People were excited for him but not everyone. There was one poster in particular, I think he was Greek, that had pumped him up like all season.
#People were excited for him but not everyone. There was one poster in particular, I think he was Greek, that had pumped him up like all season.#
I remember that one too.
Greeks are crazy mfkrs!
Seriously:
Frank was the most exciting knicks prospect I’ve witnessed in the shitty 2019-20 season.
Not exactly eyepoping but definitely worth watching the games just for his effort.
Still believe in Frank but never as a Pg.
More exciting than Mitch? For real?
Mitch was Mitch.
Didn’t see any major difference from his rookie season to be excited.I Expected more progress from him.
I won’t lie.
The magnet in 19/20 knicks games was Frank’s effort/progress. When he was playing then games became more interesting to me.
Was Frank the best knicks player last season.
Nope.
Was he the most progressing youngster?
That’s my impression.
I guess this is technically true since Knox didn’t progress at all, DSJr regressed, and Mitch played similarly to his rookie year so Ntilikina going from worst player in the league to merely awful is technically progression.
I’m not exactly Ernest Hemingway but i think that:
“Still believe in Frank but never as a Pg”
don’t exactly mean that I expect him to be an AllNbaer soon.
Well, uh, you do you. To my eyes Frank rebounded slightly from a truly abysmal second year and just barely outperformed his awful rookie year. If that’s what gets you going, more power to you. I don’t get it at all, but it takes all types to make a Knickerblogger. (Actually, not at all types. Fuq u bobneptune and reub.)
It’d be great if Frank could get his brittle ass into some games, play some D, and hit the occasional jumper when the other team doesn’t bother to guard him.
I realize the soft bigotry of low expectations but I’ll take anything from the guy at this point.
If i was the only Frankophile I’d say that something’s Very Wrong with me and that I’m trying pretty hard to play it smart and unique.
Since there are more like me believing in him (a Cult as we all know)(unlike other Knicks players) seems like there’s something going on that may be clearer in a few years or we all had been hypnotised by invisible phantoms of D.
The idea of Frank is very powerful, especially considering how bad we’ve been both on defense and at that specific position for so damn long. And occasionally, the reality gets within spitting distance of the idea. Which is why many of us have fallen from him wildly out of proportion to both his production and his most likely ceiling.
Quickley may be a mirage, but he also requires much less wishcasting to see a useful player.
I like that Tom is using analytics, not sure of his methodology but it suggests that his approach to coaching has changed.
Frank is like a garage punk song with crude sound production, childish musicianship, meaningless Lyrics, extremely false fuzz guitar solo but addictive, catchy and liberating as fuk!
Just Feel it!
Frank = punk rock is not a take I was expecting haha.
Going after selfless play and D in a heavily box score centric league is definitely punk nowadays
i assume you weren’t around during frank’s 15 point scoring spree where apparently he ran away with the starting job early last year….
this is two preseason games folks…. the term actual on-court performance starts in the regular season.. this isn’t just about prognosticating about him starting.. there are plenty of ppl unironically making a lot of premature statements about him… and everyone has their own right to be optimistic and ridiculous… but then you have every right to also be told that you are being optimistic and ridiculous….
and that’s really all this is… pump the brakes ppl…. it’s a long season and there’s plenty of time to see how our young guys develop…. they can do it all on their own without ppl overreacting and you will get everything you want in the end either way without hysterics….
Nothing is real until I say it’s real.
–djphan
2 preseason games don’t make it real…
-non-invested ppl…
Frank is actually like that band you never heard of that had one great track on some Numero Group comp (maybe “I Shut Down Luka” sung to the tune of “I Shot the Sheriff”) so you track it down on Discogs, pay some mother-f-er in France about 5 times what it’s actually worth and wait three years for it arrive only to find out that’s the only listenable track on the entire album.
4 preseason games don’t make it real…
-non-invested ppl…
Frank is like a Pitchfork hype job band like Peter Bjorn and John or Clap Your Hands Say Yeah that gets a “Best New Music” even though the record isn’t really that good, and then keeps putting out mediocre records but everybody stops caring and then on their fourth album Pitchfork starts giving their records like a 4.7 rating
Man, this Quickley/Payton debate is something else, a sad indicator of a beaten down fanbase that needs to kill the fun of dreaming on promising young talent because of a long history of many dashed dreams. Is Elfrid Payton’s place on this team so important that he can’t be usurped by a promising rookie? I don’t see it. He’s a temporary placeholder. It would be one thing if you told me that we had someone important occupying the starting point guard position on offense, but Payton’s not even that. If you believe that Quickley has a chance to stick then you should want to see him play in the lineup together with RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson ASAP.
PS – I think we fucked up picking Obi Toppin over Deni Avidja.
Oh man, Peter Bjorn & John. I had “Young Folks” in regular rotation when it came out because of the Pitchfork review, but looking back, all the song had was a whistle melody and the novelty of being a twee guy/girl duet song.
Young Folks is great.
Speaking of young folks. IQ has clearly been one of their top players in training camp. Why would they wait until they’re down double digits to bring him in? That’s exactly what will happen with Elf on the floor. Now you’re bringing him in with other bench people in an unsettled situation and putting him in a position to fail. This isn’t an Eli / Daniel Jones situation. There’s really no incumbent. We’ve been talking about the PG position for years. Certainly all summer and fall. We were gonna draft one with the Obi pick. We were gonna make a run at Vanvleet. I mean, was anyone at the time saying, “We’ll be great with Elf” except as a stopgap tank commander? This is similar to Lin in that he’s the best we’ve got and he’s shown it. Maybe we’ll be smart enough to play him. This goes double for Mitch, btw, who we know is already a pro. Why do we need cosmetic faux starters? Just give the best players the job. Get the ball rolling on IQ. Mitch, RJ and Knox make a leap. Keep Randle in the starting rotation. Obi not quite ready. Immanual? YES